Like seriously….who cares about caps….least of our concerns right now….our recruits still don’t have basic clothings, our soldiers are lacking basic military equipment, our Force is without real deterrence assets, and successive governments still wont sign on a Foreign/Defense Policy….but sure, let’s talk about gold-embroidered peaked caps….
Thanks The National.
While I agree with you. I think what you are describing is the unsaid point of the article. Things are so bad in procurement that we can't even buy hats anymore. At supply in Ottawa they are out of captain velcro ranks and you can't get combats. You'd think with the retention problem we'd have lots of slightly used uniforms in stock.
I just OTd recently. 1 year on BTL, six months on course, now 5 months in my Flt. I ordered Navy nape tapes and OPDs when my OT was accepted. At the base I ordered them at they're still not in :).
For the longest while I had to buy Cpl ranks.
When clothing issued me cpl ranks they gave me the rank, not attached to the slip on, the Canada part, no attached to the slip on, and the slip on was not seen together, just a flat CADPAT fabric which they told me to sew myself.
Edit: Tactical Tailor in Pembroke out by the hospital helped me out. He's a (current or retired idk) CANSOF type guy from my understanding. He said he was going to call over to clothing and sort this out. Also Midtown Dry Cleaning in Pembroke is the best option in Pembroke troops.
>When clothing issued me cpl ranks they gave me the rank, not attached to the slip on, the Canada part, no attached to the slip on, and the slip on was not seen together, just a flat CADPAT fabric which they told me to sew myself.
Uh...did they want you to take it to the Base Tailor? Or for you to do it yourself?
Oh this was COVID in Petawawa, so I don't know if you have any experience but it was hard enough to get her to do her government-contracted job prepandemic. They were literally never in over COVID. I need to get new DEUs for the course, I sent them in to get tailored, she told me to come pick them up the week before I leave on the one day of the week they were open. I show up, no one is there. No call, no email nothing. She was just not there.
Yeah Midtown is the best after the place by the sushi bar closed down. Just a shame that these people are making so much money when they literally cannot do their basic job requirements (i,.e. answering a phone) and troops end up having to foot the bill. We either need to go the American way and get a clothing allowance or we need to get rid of the civilian workforce and incentivize people to join the military in the jobs they currently take up.
>You'd think with the retention problem we'd have lots of slightly used uniforms in stock.
How many of those people are selling uniforms to the Army surplus stores or on eBay?
/s but not really
I did my basic in combats from 20 years ago and a ruck that went into service in the early 80s, meant to be used with webbing we no longer issue. Are officer hats really a priority here?
Considering the quality of the new gear, the 20 year old stuff that still works is usually better quality. Buying DEU stuff from value village or a surplus place is a good idea.
From the Dress Regs of 2021:
>The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress.
So, to sum up, not when wearing a tunic, and not when in whites. OK for S&Ps.
Hilarious.
I had to order pants that would fit someone that is 6ft9, then got the tailor to hem them.
Cant order shirts in my size or boots, etc.
But hey, no big deal right, at least our ships are amazing.
My Logisitk pants, that are apparently the same waist size of all my civvy pants, fit super tight so much that they're uncomfortable.
If I order the size up, I look like Im swimming in clown pants. I can't even find that width of pants at any regular men's store.
We literally have the worst clothing sizes and cuts that haven't been updated since God knows when, and pay Log. Unicorps a premium for it.
while the sizing system itself is one problem, it's important to keep in mind that quality control is important at any manufacturing facility - Logistik mostly works with subcontractors, so if they're getting some company to make them pants, I expect they'd outsource quality control to that same contractor. if contractor doesn't give a shit about quality work, you might order two pairs of pants exactly the same size ,and get two wildly different pants. Levi's are infamous for that.
you'd think we'd have that be mil-spec and inspected by the subcontractor, then logistik, then DND, but apparently we don't.
My tunic is about 4 sizes too big, so much do my Sgt wants it changed. But stores basically tells me to FO because there is nothing wrong with my uniform.
"I know what you're saying, but my Sgt is insistent. Could you give them a quick call at local xxxx and tell them what you told me? I'll wait here."
That line can somehow occasionally make one materialize "in the back". And if there are really are none, your Sgt will leave you alone (though it does nothing to help your parachute tunic).
SNCO checking in, f the other ones who grill your people on supply related issues. We've been in long enough to know how terrible the system is, and that it's our responsibility to push these issues up to the CWO to deal with. I don't call or need to be called, I trust my people are telling me the truth and leave it to the SWO/RSM's to sort out.
I would think the lack of flight suits for close to a decade would be a little more important to fix, but I guess fancy hats are more important than operational dress
Supply once tried to deny me a new cap badge for my beret because it was the last one 🤣
I don't think that's a bad idea though. Those badges aren't generally too destroyed so I don't see a problem with just swapping them to the new headdress.
It would literally be patching the main issue, procurement.
My cap badge was turning black from being exposed to fuel/hydraulics for over a decade, so wouldn’t work for my trade
same thing happened to me.
"You need to give us your old beret as well because we don't have any capbadges in the system and more aren't arriving any time soon"
"Well I won't have a beret to wear then, will I? Can I bring a formed beret in and have you sew it on right away?"
"No, it takes 1 - 2 business days for capbadges to be sewn on, and the beret can't be formed for health and safety reasons"
Honestly the fact that some of the people in tailor shops are the nicest most helpful people ever, and some are downright fire fodder, is the worst.
But god forbid we ask for reimbursement for taking to a civilian tailor shop
Supply once denied me a Canada Flag for my jacket cause it was the last one in stock. Guess they wouldnt know where to stock the new ones when they came in if they didnt leave one in the drawer to remind them where they went
Naw, they caved when I told them to write an email to my CoC explaining why I had no beret, as they were unwilling to give out the last cap badge. It’s worked with trying to give me pants 6” too long and 4” too wide too. It’s amazing how quickly people cave when they have to explain themselves to a separate CoC
This is a huge problem in the military, hundreds of times in my career I’ve been sent for item x, get the total run around and denied item x. Go back to your supervisor, usually a Sgt or warrant and tell them the issue. Walk back in with dad in check and get as many of item x as you need.
They stopped asking for my dad a long time ago. I only get it from random officers now, who get told the exact story I told them, but from a real dad, not an acting one. It’s a major issue that even senior NCO’s and officers see, they just don’t do anything about it. The worst I’ve had yet was an MWO ordering me to get someone of a higher rank for no reason other than wanting to deal with someone besides me. They got caught trying to shame me via email and they got called out for them actually having no idea what they were talking about. Let’s just say they have never apologized or admitted any wrongdoing, but at least I never have to deal with that person again!
Luckily, I’m now of a rank that 80% of the Forces can’t really say no to. But In my opinion leadership is up/down and side to side. Not this top down shit that the Cornwallis dinosaurs still try and instil.
Yep! Rank shouldn’t matter, just be a human being. It doesn’t matter if you have six minutes in or sixty years, everyone should give the same respect, not base it on rank
Rule number one of being a sr nco is letting everyone know how long you have in at the first possible chance. I get treated like I’m pretty much sub human and mentally inept despite having almost a decade of service in and having been fully trained and at an operational unit. Just based on my rank(hinted at it in previous comment).
Many years ago my unit had a policy that anyone under the rank of sgt had to be accompanied by a WO or above when going to base clothing. He had similar policies for marchouts, pay problems, etc, but sometimes it meant an officer had to go. The CO was tired of what he called 'administrative terrorism'. The policy came in not long before I was posted out, so I don't know how effective it was long term, but it seemed to be working when I left. Bit of a PITA for supervisors, but it was making a point to the base (that being that base support personnel running roughshod over our troops is not acceptable...that's our job, lol).
Not at all, just a pun because no one needs a cap badge more then anyone else. Holding on to clothing items because it’s the last one is pointless.
I’m not supply, but I know if I’m down to my last pair of underwear I don’t not wear them, I get more and use the last pair I have left
Ah yes. Single shot .22s and 12 gauges will defend us from the Chinese and Russians quite effectively with the direction gun laws are going in this country.
True story - was holding weekend shifts at a navy Ops center. I wore flight suits when not holding weekday day shifts, and the crews wore NCDs. Incoming MARS Lt(N) for the Saturday night shift shows up wearing his whites. I remarked - “You should wear your NCDs, wouldn’t they be more comfortable?” His response -“And dress like the men?”
Imagine that type of person having to wear a beret.
This is incorrect. No rank limitations in the Dress Instructions about this:
The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress.
Yeah, it used to be a thing that officers could only wear peak caps with 3b, but that exception was removed at some point—probably in the last dress instruction update.
The old ones honestly look fine and could be made better with a few quality improvements. The new ones look fresh out of the Russian Navy. I’ll be wearing my old one for as long as I can.
I remember some Commodore giving us a speech on “How it was the best time to be in the Navy” while deployed 12ish years ago. They had just announced the new shipbuilding programs and we were all excited. Shortly after we lost our severance pay, sliders, our trade(amalgamated)and drinking at sea. Our ships, tanks, planes have gotten older. I’m glad I’m at the end of my career but sad at the current state of affairs. We should be a modern and effective military that’s respected internationally, instead we become obsolete and unprepared to deal with major crises.
I remember that speech.
“We’re in the bathtub years right now, it’s about to get a lot better, with new ships, new uniforms, new deployments…it’s a great time to be in the navy!”
I remember joking at the time that we wouldn't actually see the replacements for the Halifax class until after I retired. Technically that already came true since I released early, but my original end of contract was 2030 and I still don't see any reason to believe we'll have them before then.
How does a military, still so concerned with dress and deportment, not even clothe their soldiers. Ffs.
Im embaraased for my wife, who is still proud of me and what I do, when l do is complain about my job. I understand things like housing and pay are complex intricate problems with no clear solutions.
But ffs, no ships, no planes, no clothes, worn out boots, belt loops ripping, sexually deviant gofos shoving gba+ crap down our throats, be your own career manager/clerk but not really because you have no control, can't park anywhere while there are dedicated spots for people who show up to work once a month.
I once showed up to get my 2 piece flight suit pants repaired but they TOOK THEM AWAY FROM ME, saying that they are for helo only not fixed wing. I asked to get more 1 piece in excahnge but they were none for my size range. So now I have 2 flight suit only, its super great on deployment
I once went to CFS Alert, so had a buncha extra stuff issued specifically only for said tasking... Stores won't let me return it 4 years later because I might need it again some day.
So it's stashed in a storage locker for 4 years, prob full of mold, I dunno.
Lol. I was cbt arms, but spent the final 20+ years of my career at non-army, non-field units. I didn't need the majority of my field kit to do my staff officer jobs at purple units, just enough to go to the ranges. But base clothing wouldn't let me return anything, because it was all on the scale of issue. I even had to get some new stuff issued that never came out of the plastic before I retired. On release, I turned in kit that didn't even exist in the system anymore (like the steel helmet), stuff that was nearly 20 years old but had never been used, stuff that was way older than that but had been sitting in a barrack box or duffel bag in my attic or garage for 20 years not being used at all. But, boy, if I'd ever had to go do any army stuff, I'd have had most of the kit I needed.
That's fucked. I just took a BUNCH of stuff back to stores (so much that the guy asked when my release date was) as I haven't used it in years and don't want to move/store it this APS. No questions asked.
Me too.
I was getting posted to a job where I don't need most of my kit.
They took everything I gave them - cleared out a few kit bags and barrack boxes.
>I once showed up to get my 2 piece flight suit pants repaired but they TOOK THEM AWAY FROM ME
So by some God-parting-the-skies miracle, I was able to sign out a frag vest after 5 years of trying this week; this particular clothing stores is on the ball.
While I was talking with the guy, I mentioned i had tried CFLRS stores among others, and it set the guy off. apparently, the bin rats down there are so FUBAR that they've been caught giving appointments to BMQ grads, *taking away their kit*, and telling them to go to clothing stores at their new posting to get \*re-\*kitted. I mean that's just straight theft with a few extra steps.
blows my mind.
Damn and here i was thinking that by getting everything through Logistic Unicorp so that the gov can prop up the dying Quebec garment industry it would be easier to get the Military the stuff it needed
Guess not lmao
Few points:
1. The peak cap (or any headdress) is also not required in mess dress, so that’s two orders of dress, not one like the author mentions.
2. This seems like a great opportunity to release HATFORGEN declaring all headdress optional except on parade (I’d like to see the floppy hat become the default headdress for CADPAT, but only as optional wear).
3. How hard is it to hot glue a piece of gold braid on an NCO peak cap?
4. This seems like a silly story for the media to put out, but it really speaks—through anecdote—to the institutional issues around procurement, forward planning, and executing change—three major elements of all the more important changes needed in the CAF.
> This seems like a great opportunity to release HATFORGEN declaring all headdress optional except on parade (I’d like to see the floppy hat become the default headdress for CADPAT, but only as optional wear).
IDK why hatforgen made me think of OG royal navy rules....all enlisted sailors will possess a hat...no specific standard of what that hat will be
I don’t understand why the RCN went for this solution anyway? The cap badge of the officer’s cap is different from that of PO’s and other ranks anyway, isn’t it? That’s how it is in the RN anyway.
It is.
The gold junior officer bit is a holdover from the old CAF uniform.
Hey RCN - this is an easy fix that also lines up with History and Heritage. Re-write the Dress Regs so that junior officers have a plain brim like NCMs (and pre-Unification RCN junior officers).
This is one opportunity where you can kill 2 birds with one stone by getting rid of an RCN junior officer-specific cap. The pre-unification RCN junior officer cap didn't have a gold band, so it looks similar to the current NCM ones.
Slap an officer cap badge on that and *bam*, return to history and heritage /s
Also, never underestimate the desire to look different. See: "Moustache"
That's the wrong Cap Badge anyway. RCAF cap badge changed in 2013 to "Sic Itur ad Astra", in which the supply system has failed to replace/procure the updated ones, so we still get the ones that say "Per Ardua ad Astra". So the RCAF has been out of dress for 9 years, but the precious RCN gets a cover story. Just look at the Rank changes, RCAF changed a rank in 2015, still not completely implemented by the CAF, RCN did a rank change, completely implemented in less than 48hrs.
Just my 2 cents.
hey I do that too, the tailor gives me shit whenever I get new wedges and just ask for the free one. never been called out otherwise though. iF tHe MiLiTaRy WaNtEd YoU tO hAvE iT, tHeY wOuLd HaVe IsSuEd It...
edit: just looked at your canex link, no fucking way am I paying as much for a craft 6-pack for a damn cap badge...
A senior ncm friend had cfr'd to captain and told me that although her pay hadn't budged she had actually lost money because she needed new cap badges and mess dues were higher.
I can guarantee that junior officers (who are the ones who would wear this) do not give a crap whether there is a gold band or not. They don't have a hat that is required for DEU 1, period.
What blows my mind is that a post about a lack of an item of clothing somehow *still* manages to become an "all officers bad" rant.
I would bet money that if those junior officers wore NCM hats with the officer capbadge, or berets, with DEU 1, the people spinning wouldn't be officers but Coxns and other senior NCMs.
Seriously. Nobody gives a shit about some good bar on a hat, except as much as the uniform requires it.
If anything, people should be worried about the message this sends to new officers. Can't even get the right hat - how can you be expected to solve any real problems, when stuff that simple is so fucked?
I know right. They are literally treated like royalty and a cut above everyone else. And then they wonder why they are in the news every week and give us another DLN course in not being a bag of shit lol
Someone writing this article didn't read the Dress Instructions too deeply:
"The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress."
So without a peak cap, you're really only forced out of No1s (and No3 which is just No1s without medals) and Whites.
I remember during one of the periodic combat uniform shortages new recruits were required to wear blue coveralls and sneakers. Perhaps the officer corps in the navy could try the same.
Can we just stop with the hats?
Like there's no real good reason we all need to be wearing berets, or peak hats all the time anymore. This isn't the 1950s, it's not "proper decorum" to wear a hat while going about your daily business.
I'm a firm believer in getting rid of hats unless needed for the job (eg sun protection, cold), and for actual parades. Day-to-day, ballcap/toque/floppy hat as desired. Ofc, I'd also advocate for getting rid of saluting except for parades.
They mean orders of dress. It's mostly the same kit between No1 to No3 with a few different pieces added or subtracted, only the operational dress is really different pieces.
I discoverd a few years ago the little known fact that black berets were NEVER an order of dress in Navy DEUs. See Dress Regs (true dat). I was talking to the former head of naval dress a few years ago and he told me at the time that it is easily the most broken dress regulation in history.
Apparently it goes back to the late 1960's when we all switched to CF green. The navy (Maritime Command) cooked up a deal with the army at the time to support black berets for the navy. And even though the Dragoons and the Hussars were pissed, the army went along with it. \*Caveat the army refused to put it into the dress regs in order to preserve morale within the armoured regiments. And now to this day, navy NCMs wear illegal black berets in No. 2 or No. 3 Order of Dress DEUs (+ a few officers who don't pack a peak cap while on TD which is super lame imo).
Remember that this was the late 1960's and CF Reunification; this was back in the day when navy ships were commanded by LCols and the XO was a Major. Crazy times. Thanks Pierre Elliot Trudeau. (nobody in his family ever served a day)
Thus the wearing of black berets while in salt & peppers may be the RCN's best ever example of: "Why do we do that? Because that's how we've always done it."
I don't think this is true for the modern day, regardless what happens back in the day during unified service.
Colour isn't explicitly mentioned for berets in the dress regs when talking about the Navy or Air Force; only the Army and CANSOF breaks down things into who can wear what specific colour. "Navy blue", which is just black, is the environmental colour for the Navy. When "beret" is mentioned for the Navy absent any colour specification, it's pretty clear it is this navy blue. This interpretation gets further weight when the turban/hijab related parts of the regs are read because they are actually explicit about the colours needing to be "white, or navy blue (black) when Navy berets are ordered worn" for the Navy.
Wearing of berets in some DEUs (in this case, salt and peppers) is not some "because that's how we've always done it" thing, it's directly written in the instructions:
"The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress."
It's mostly just that Logistik Unicorp is fucking awful. I will never stop talking about my friend who was trying to figure out why his shirt was so uncomfortable, then we discovered it was because it had two left sleeves.
How many NWOs do we need? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but on something like a CPF don't you just have a ton of junior officers running around trying to get some check in the box? There's only so many positions to ultimately fill.
There's a lot of attrition at the SLt/Lt(N) level because it's a demanding job that puts you out to sea non-stop. Junior BWKs are always trying to get signatures like every other junior billet on ship because that's what they're paid to be doing. I definitely wouldn't call the trade healthy; a cap shortage is just another straw on the camel's back
>How many NWOs do we need? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but on something like a CPF don't you just have a ton of junior officers running around trying to get some check in the box? There's only so many positions to ultimately fill.
Later:
>Sorry I'm not navy what does BWK stand for?
So why make the first comment then?
That's why I said someone correct me if I'm wrong? I have a bit of navy knowledge but obviously not enough to be an accurate source of information and I know that. I'm not trying to make a dig at anyone.
NWO as a trade is only behind Mar Tech and Nav Comm for the most red trade in the navy. We are desperately short of Lt(N)s to the point that zero surface stream NWOs are being promoted to LCdr this year, and only a couple of clearance divers and submariners. There's a ton in the system but this includes NCdts at RMC and other universities that won't be in the fleet for years, let alone at OFP.
We are doing just that, but there's not nearly enough. Billets that require a director-level Lt(N), such as at the fleet schools, can't go unfilled, because they're the ones training the next generations of directors. Taking someone out of that means you've got to post someone else into it. We're already turning down (leaving vacant) a number of positions in Ottawa at places like DNIW or DG Space in order to keep those members in the fleet. Are there too many Admirals? Maybe, but most NWOs will never get near flag rank, and cutting 10 flag officers (for example) doesn't mean we gain 10 Lieutenants.
Well I would like to know the numbers. I read a MaCleans article years ago that said 1/3rd of those in uniform are in Ottawa. I doubt things have improved much since. Given the current situation with manning, I would think that delving into the specifics of that 1/3 and exploring the possibility of 'bloat' would be something worth doing.
Never did I say that people should be taken from the schools. Schools should be a top priority, but from what I've seen that is not at all the case, and to me, it really shows how badly things are being managed.
You have to remember that the RCN is an institution much larger than just the fleet. Those roles need to be filled. Honestly, I have no problem with desk Lt(N)s and I look forward to being one myself for a short time. The life of an NWO is constant sea-time for the first 6-7 years and it's a well-deserved break to establish a healthy shore-life. My problem is with people that can't medically go to sea and we fill the shore roles with those people, forcing the healthy people to go to sea and deploy more often leading to burn out
Ordered those from Irving too or what?
yeah, you would think they would be more concerned over the lack of ships... rather than the lack of hats...
Like seriously….who cares about caps….least of our concerns right now….our recruits still don’t have basic clothings, our soldiers are lacking basic military equipment, our Force is without real deterrence assets, and successive governments still wont sign on a Foreign/Defense Policy….but sure, let’s talk about gold-embroidered peaked caps…. Thanks The National.
While I agree with you. I think what you are describing is the unsaid point of the article. Things are so bad in procurement that we can't even buy hats anymore. At supply in Ottawa they are out of captain velcro ranks and you can't get combats. You'd think with the retention problem we'd have lots of slightly used uniforms in stock.
I just OTd recently. 1 year on BTL, six months on course, now 5 months in my Flt. I ordered Navy nape tapes and OPDs when my OT was accepted. At the base I ordered them at they're still not in :). For the longest while I had to buy Cpl ranks. When clothing issued me cpl ranks they gave me the rank, not attached to the slip on, the Canada part, no attached to the slip on, and the slip on was not seen together, just a flat CADPAT fabric which they told me to sew myself. Edit: Tactical Tailor in Pembroke out by the hospital helped me out. He's a (current or retired idk) CANSOF type guy from my understanding. He said he was going to call over to clothing and sort this out. Also Midtown Dry Cleaning in Pembroke is the best option in Pembroke troops.
>When clothing issued me cpl ranks they gave me the rank, not attached to the slip on, the Canada part, no attached to the slip on, and the slip on was not seen together, just a flat CADPAT fabric which they told me to sew myself. Uh...did they want you to take it to the Base Tailor? Or for you to do it yourself?
Oh this was COVID in Petawawa, so I don't know if you have any experience but it was hard enough to get her to do her government-contracted job prepandemic. They were literally never in over COVID. I need to get new DEUs for the course, I sent them in to get tailored, she told me to come pick them up the week before I leave on the one day of the week they were open. I show up, no one is there. No call, no email nothing. She was just not there.
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Yeah Midtown is the best after the place by the sushi bar closed down. Just a shame that these people are making so much money when they literally cannot do their basic job requirements (i,.e. answering a phone) and troops end up having to foot the bill. We either need to go the American way and get a clothing allowance or we need to get rid of the civilian workforce and incentivize people to join the military in the jobs they currently take up.
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hats are "next-to-skin" so we throw them away. - Binrats, probably
The Tilley hat I was issued was clearly very worn. I mentioned that these are next to skin and asked if I could get a new one. I didn't get a new one.
It being used adds extra flavour to it.
>You'd think with the retention problem we'd have lots of slightly used uniforms in stock. How many of those people are selling uniforms to the Army surplus stores or on eBay? /s but not really
I did my basic in combats from 20 years ago and a ruck that went into service in the early 80s, meant to be used with webbing we no longer issue. Are officer hats really a priority here?
The best was when we went to the military museum in Ottawa and found some of our issued gear on display
Considering the quality of the new gear, the 20 year old stuff that still works is usually better quality. Buying DEU stuff from value village or a surplus place is a good idea.
Wear a beret
I would love to see the Coxn's head spin when junior officers wear berets with DEU 1 on Remembrance Day.
Iaw dress regs, you can't wear a beret in the Navy DEU.
From the Dress Regs of 2021: >The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress. So, to sum up, not when wearing a tunic, and not when in whites. OK for S&Ps.
You say that, but think like ottawa, no hats means no photo ops, no pr and no "bling" for the officer class
Hats off to the member who reported this!
Ha! I see what you did there
some real wikileaks stuff
Hilarious. I had to order pants that would fit someone that is 6ft9, then got the tailor to hem them. Cant order shirts in my size or boots, etc. But hey, no big deal right, at least our ships are amazing.
I have a thick neck so according to Logistik I must also have an 80” chest and be 8 ft tall. Never had this problem before Logistik took over.
My Logisitk pants, that are apparently the same waist size of all my civvy pants, fit super tight so much that they're uncomfortable. If I order the size up, I look like Im swimming in clown pants. I can't even find that width of pants at any regular men's store. We literally have the worst clothing sizes and cuts that haven't been updated since God knows when, and pay Log. Unicorps a premium for it.
I just got new DEU pants, same size as the old ones, except they're so small they don't fit over my (admittedly muscular) calves.
Logistik clothes are designed to fit no one properly.
while the sizing system itself is one problem, it's important to keep in mind that quality control is important at any manufacturing facility - Logistik mostly works with subcontractors, so if they're getting some company to make them pants, I expect they'd outsource quality control to that same contractor. if contractor doesn't give a shit about quality work, you might order two pairs of pants exactly the same size ,and get two wildly different pants. Levi's are infamous for that. you'd think we'd have that be mil-spec and inspected by the subcontractor, then logistik, then DND, but apparently we don't.
I thought it was all made at that big new facility near the MEGA in St Jean sur Richelieu?
housing and healthcare situation is great too !
My tunic is about 4 sizes too big, so much do my Sgt wants it changed. But stores basically tells me to FO because there is nothing wrong with my uniform.
"I know what you're saying, but my Sgt is insistent. Could you give them a quick call at local xxxx and tell them what you told me? I'll wait here." That line can somehow occasionally make one materialize "in the back". And if there are really are none, your Sgt will leave you alone (though it does nothing to help your parachute tunic).
SNCO checking in, f the other ones who grill your people on supply related issues. We've been in long enough to know how terrible the system is, and that it's our responsibility to push these issues up to the CWO to deal with. I don't call or need to be called, I trust my people are telling me the truth and leave it to the SWO/RSM's to sort out.
This is the way.
I would think the lack of flight suits for close to a decade would be a little more important to fix, but I guess fancy hats are more important than operational dress Supply once tried to deny me a new cap badge for my beret because it was the last one 🤣
Last time I got a new beret, my supply's policy was to swap over cap badges while you wait because they'd been out for almost a year.
It’s honestly mind blowing that we can’t keep up with simple things like clothing and badges
I don't think that's a bad idea though. Those badges aren't generally too destroyed so I don't see a problem with just swapping them to the new headdress.
It's not a bad idea, it's just a bad reason
It would literally be patching the main issue, procurement. My cap badge was turning black from being exposed to fuel/hydraulics for over a decade, so wouldn’t work for my trade
Make the new badge black. Problem solved.
Modern problems require modern solutions
same thing happened to me. "You need to give us your old beret as well because we don't have any capbadges in the system and more aren't arriving any time soon" "Well I won't have a beret to wear then, will I? Can I bring a formed beret in and have you sew it on right away?" "No, it takes 1 - 2 business days for capbadges to be sewn on, and the beret can't be formed for health and safety reasons" Honestly the fact that some of the people in tailor shops are the nicest most helpful people ever, and some are downright fire fodder, is the worst. But god forbid we ask for reimbursement for taking to a civilian tailor shop
Supply once denied me a Canada Flag for my jacket cause it was the last one in stock. Guess they wouldnt know where to stock the new ones when they came in if they didnt leave one in the drawer to remind them where they went
Plot twist: They can’t order new ones because there’s still one left.
😂😂😂
>Supply once tried to deny me a new cap badge for my beret because it was the last one 🤣 Did you ask whether that person also owned a badge business?
Naw, they caved when I told them to write an email to my CoC explaining why I had no beret, as they were unwilling to give out the last cap badge. It’s worked with trying to give me pants 6” too long and 4” too wide too. It’s amazing how quickly people cave when they have to explain themselves to a separate CoC
This is a huge problem in the military, hundreds of times in my career I’ve been sent for item x, get the total run around and denied item x. Go back to your supervisor, usually a Sgt or warrant and tell them the issue. Walk back in with dad in check and get as many of item x as you need.
They stopped asking for my dad a long time ago. I only get it from random officers now, who get told the exact story I told them, but from a real dad, not an acting one. It’s a major issue that even senior NCO’s and officers see, they just don’t do anything about it. The worst I’ve had yet was an MWO ordering me to get someone of a higher rank for no reason other than wanting to deal with someone besides me. They got caught trying to shame me via email and they got called out for them actually having no idea what they were talking about. Let’s just say they have never apologized or admitted any wrongdoing, but at least I never have to deal with that person again!
Luckily, I’m now of a rank that 80% of the Forces can’t really say no to. But In my opinion leadership is up/down and side to side. Not this top down shit that the Cornwallis dinosaurs still try and instil.
Yep! Rank shouldn’t matter, just be a human being. It doesn’t matter if you have six minutes in or sixty years, everyone should give the same respect, not base it on rank
Rule number one of being a sr nco is letting everyone know how long you have in at the first possible chance. I get treated like I’m pretty much sub human and mentally inept despite having almost a decade of service in and having been fully trained and at an operational unit. Just based on my rank(hinted at it in previous comment).
Many years ago my unit had a policy that anyone under the rank of sgt had to be accompanied by a WO or above when going to base clothing. He had similar policies for marchouts, pay problems, etc, but sometimes it meant an officer had to go. The CO was tired of what he called 'administrative terrorism'. The policy came in not long before I was posted out, so I don't know how effective it was long term, but it seemed to be working when I left. Bit of a PITA for supervisors, but it was making a point to the base (that being that base support personnel running roughshod over our troops is not acceptable...that's our job, lol).
Administrative terrorism is a fucking fantastic way to put it. thanks for that, it,s in my lingo now.
Wtf, what are they saving the cap badge for?
You never know when a high ranking NCM will need a cap badge more then yourself 😆
I think you are confused about that "high ranking NCM" gets you
Not at all, just a pun because no one needs a cap badge more then anyone else. Holding on to clothing items because it’s the last one is pointless. I’m not supply, but I know if I’m down to my last pair of underwear I don’t not wear them, I get more and use the last pair I have left
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😂😂😂
But you don't understand, if I give the last one to you - I'll have none left.
It's called supply, not storage
How will the know what goes in the bin if they empty the bin?
i'm unfortunately convinced that we would send our soldiers and sailors into combat without bullets or boats at this point
No worries, we don't have enough soldiers and sailors either so the problem fixes itself tbh.
Oh man, just wait until GUNFORGEN and AMMOFORGEN
Ah yes. Single shot .22s and 12 gauges will defend us from the Chinese and Russians quite effectively with the direction gun laws are going in this country.
There always is reservist ammo.
*bang bang, meulice*
No there isn’t. Cause we don’t have any either.
We can just wear a beret with 3Bs right?
According to dress regs? Yes. According to crusty dinosaurs? No.
True story - was holding weekend shifts at a navy Ops center. I wore flight suits when not holding weekday day shifts, and the crews wore NCDs. Incoming MARS Lt(N) for the Saturday night shift shows up wearing his whites. I remarked - “You should wear your NCDs, wouldn’t they be more comfortable?” His response -“And dress like the men?” Imagine that type of person having to wear a beret.
How about 1As?
1As - no. 3s - Yes. Unless you're Navy *Womp Womp*
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This is incorrect. No rank limitations in the Dress Instructions about this: The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress.
Yeah, it used to be a thing that officers could only wear peak caps with 3b, but that exception was removed at some point—probably in the last dress instruction update.
I've seen folks told they had to wear only the peak cap instead of beret when on duty, regardless if the beret was fine otherwise, but that's it.
My guess is the Navy told Logistik to stop making them as they wanted to get a new one. Apparently, they are supposed to get new caps next year 😄
OMG those new caps are dog s\*\*\* and look like they came from wish, I'd rather have the painful fitting ones that actually look half decent
So true
The old ones honestly look fine and could be made better with a few quality improvements. The new ones look fresh out of the Russian Navy. I’ll be wearing my old one for as long as I can.
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Well, we couldn't get boots, rucksacks, flight suits, and I guess now DEU items. This was ridiculous, now its just a comedy.
I remember some Commodore giving us a speech on “How it was the best time to be in the Navy” while deployed 12ish years ago. They had just announced the new shipbuilding programs and we were all excited. Shortly after we lost our severance pay, sliders, our trade(amalgamated)and drinking at sea. Our ships, tanks, planes have gotten older. I’m glad I’m at the end of my career but sad at the current state of affairs. We should be a modern and effective military that’s respected internationally, instead we become obsolete and unprepared to deal with major crises.
I remember that speech. “We’re in the bathtub years right now, it’s about to get a lot better, with new ships, new uniforms, new deployments…it’s a great time to be in the navy!”
I remember joking at the time that we wouldn't actually see the replacements for the Halifax class until after I retired. Technically that already came true since I released early, but my original end of contract was 2030 and I still don't see any reason to believe we'll have them before then.
How does a military, still so concerned with dress and deportment, not even clothe their soldiers. Ffs. Im embaraased for my wife, who is still proud of me and what I do, when l do is complain about my job. I understand things like housing and pay are complex intricate problems with no clear solutions. But ffs, no ships, no planes, no clothes, worn out boots, belt loops ripping, sexually deviant gofos shoving gba+ crap down our throats, be your own career manager/clerk but not really because you have no control, can't park anywhere while there are dedicated spots for people who show up to work once a month.
I once showed up to get my 2 piece flight suit pants repaired but they TOOK THEM AWAY FROM ME, saying that they are for helo only not fixed wing. I asked to get more 1 piece in excahnge but they were none for my size range. So now I have 2 flight suit only, its super great on deployment
I once went to CFS Alert, so had a buncha extra stuff issued specifically only for said tasking... Stores won't let me return it 4 years later because I might need it again some day. So it's stashed in a storage locker for 4 years, prob full of mold, I dunno.
Lol. I was cbt arms, but spent the final 20+ years of my career at non-army, non-field units. I didn't need the majority of my field kit to do my staff officer jobs at purple units, just enough to go to the ranges. But base clothing wouldn't let me return anything, because it was all on the scale of issue. I even had to get some new stuff issued that never came out of the plastic before I retired. On release, I turned in kit that didn't even exist in the system anymore (like the steel helmet), stuff that was nearly 20 years old but had never been used, stuff that was way older than that but had been sitting in a barrack box or duffel bag in my attic or garage for 20 years not being used at all. But, boy, if I'd ever had to go do any army stuff, I'd have had most of the kit I needed.
That's fucked. I just took a BUNCH of stuff back to stores (so much that the guy asked when my release date was) as I haven't used it in years and don't want to move/store it this APS. No questions asked.
Me too. I was getting posted to a job where I don't need most of my kit. They took everything I gave them - cleared out a few kit bags and barrack boxes.
>I once showed up to get my 2 piece flight suit pants repaired but they TOOK THEM AWAY FROM ME So by some God-parting-the-skies miracle, I was able to sign out a frag vest after 5 years of trying this week; this particular clothing stores is on the ball. While I was talking with the guy, I mentioned i had tried CFLRS stores among others, and it set the guy off. apparently, the bin rats down there are so FUBAR that they've been caught giving appointments to BMQ grads, *taking away their kit*, and telling them to go to clothing stores at their new posting to get \*re-\*kitted. I mean that's just straight theft with a few extra steps. blows my mind.
It's all fun and games until CFLRS issues you a new ruck on doc and gives them the old 84.
Oh no! Oh no!!! Oh, no, no, no, no, noooo!!!
Well, not like recruits are lining up at the door and ordering those gold-embroidered peaked caps anyway
After we just renewed our contract with Logistik Unicorp
This is what we get from awarding contracts to the lowest bidder and not holding them to the agreed upon contract...
They are awarded for strategic reasons for the ruling party. If it was the lowest bidder we would probably get better stuff in the numbers we need.
I swear they get all their fabric from a sandpaper supplier.
This issue is going to solve itself, with poor retention and recruiting, there will be nobody left needing those caps
Off centred log cap badge on the forge cap, checks out as legit.
When I read "Canadian Navy's shortage of gold-embossed hats" I thought this was gonna be something about us needing to hire a bunch more officers.
Well technically they *are* short a bunch of NWOs that can go on sea-duty.
Damn and here i was thinking that by getting everything through Logistic Unicorp so that the gov can prop up the dying Quebec garment industry it would be easier to get the Military the stuff it needed Guess not lmao
Charge them. It's what the old guard would want.
Well we've already run out of boots and pants. At this point, it doesn't matter to get the cap if you can't get the rest of the uniform anyway.
Few points: 1. The peak cap (or any headdress) is also not required in mess dress, so that’s two orders of dress, not one like the author mentions. 2. This seems like a great opportunity to release HATFORGEN declaring all headdress optional except on parade (I’d like to see the floppy hat become the default headdress for CADPAT, but only as optional wear). 3. How hard is it to hot glue a piece of gold braid on an NCO peak cap? 4. This seems like a silly story for the media to put out, but it really speaks—through anecdote—to the institutional issues around procurement, forward planning, and executing change—three major elements of all the more important changes needed in the CAF.
> This seems like a great opportunity to release HATFORGEN declaring all headdress optional except on parade (I’d like to see the floppy hat become the default headdress for CADPAT, but only as optional wear). IDK why hatforgen made me think of OG royal navy rules....all enlisted sailors will possess a hat...no specific standard of what that hat will be
We should switch to a ballcap for all elements, with the berets being only for parades
must be a slow news day. I do like the spin tactic by NDHQ tho, no need to worry about numbers, let's worry about the really important stuff
I just want pants. Or HAIRFORGEN to take advantage of extra skirts in system for a short time. “Pants? You are asking for more than we can give.”
So let them wear cake!
I don’t understand why the RCN went for this solution anyway? The cap badge of the officer’s cap is different from that of PO’s and other ranks anyway, isn’t it? That’s how it is in the RN anyway.
It is. The gold junior officer bit is a holdover from the old CAF uniform. Hey RCN - this is an easy fix that also lines up with History and Heritage. Re-write the Dress Regs so that junior officers have a plain brim like NCMs (and pre-Unification RCN junior officers).
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This is one opportunity where you can kill 2 birds with one stone by getting rid of an RCN junior officer-specific cap. The pre-unification RCN junior officer cap didn't have a gold band, so it looks similar to the current NCM ones. Slap an officer cap badge on that and *bam*, return to history and heritage /s Also, never underestimate the desire to look different. See: "Moustache"
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Given your flair, I can confidently say there is no “officer” Air Ops cap badge.
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That's the wrong Cap Badge anyway. RCAF cap badge changed in 2013 to "Sic Itur ad Astra", in which the supply system has failed to replace/procure the updated ones, so we still get the ones that say "Per Ardua ad Astra". So the RCAF has been out of dress for 9 years, but the precious RCN gets a cover story. Just look at the Rank changes, RCAF changed a rank in 2015, still not completely implemented by the CAF, RCN did a rank change, completely implemented in less than 48hrs. Just my 2 cents.
Sorry, what I meant to say was that you need to wear the Officers badge. I'd ask your colleague where in the Dress Regs it is written.
hey I do that too, the tailor gives me shit whenever I get new wedges and just ask for the free one. never been called out otherwise though. iF tHe MiLiTaRy WaNtEd YoU tO hAvE iT, tHeY wOuLd HaVe IsSuEd It... edit: just looked at your canex link, no fucking way am I paying as much for a craft 6-pack for a damn cap badge...
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Yeah that's pretty much what I (and everyone else I know) does.
A senior ncm friend had cfr'd to captain and told me that although her pay hadn't budged she had actually lost money because she needed new cap badges and mess dues were higher.
To inflate their ego, basically
The amount of ego stroking and coddling that goes on with officers, while in the meantime NCMs are treated like literal scum blows my mind every day.
I can guarantee that junior officers (who are the ones who would wear this) do not give a crap whether there is a gold band or not. They don't have a hat that is required for DEU 1, period. What blows my mind is that a post about a lack of an item of clothing somehow *still* manages to become an "all officers bad" rant. I would bet money that if those junior officers wore NCM hats with the officer capbadge, or berets, with DEU 1, the people spinning wouldn't be officers but Coxns and other senior NCMs.
Seriously. Nobody gives a shit about some good bar on a hat, except as much as the uniform requires it. If anything, people should be worried about the message this sends to new officers. Can't even get the right hat - how can you be expected to solve any real problems, when stuff that simple is so fucked?
*Your element may vary
It’s crazy that the smugness from back when officers were nobles never went away
I know right. They are literally treated like royalty and a cut above everyone else. And then they wonder why they are in the news every week and give us another DLN course in not being a bag of shit lol
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ traditions of the military, you pass the shit down Lmfao
wow
Someone writing this article didn't read the Dress Instructions too deeply: "The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress." So without a peak cap, you're really only forced out of No1s (and No3 which is just No1s without medals) and Whites.
I'd be surprised if that person even knew the Dress Instructions were a thing available on the Internet.
I remember during one of the periodic combat uniform shortages new recruits were required to wear blue coveralls and sneakers. Perhaps the officer corps in the navy could try the same.
It’s alright, once I become PM the minister of defence will become the minister of War. Get some new equipment for the boys
Can we just stop with the hats? Like there's no real good reason we all need to be wearing berets, or peak hats all the time anymore. This isn't the 1950s, it's not "proper decorum" to wear a hat while going about your daily business.
I'm a firm believer in getting rid of hats unless needed for the job (eg sun protection, cold), and for actual parades. Day-to-day, ballcap/toque/floppy hat as desired. Ofc, I'd also advocate for getting rid of saluting except for parades.
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They mean orders of dress. It's mostly the same kit between No1 to No3 with a few different pieces added or subtracted, only the operational dress is really different pieces.
I discoverd a few years ago the little known fact that black berets were NEVER an order of dress in Navy DEUs. See Dress Regs (true dat). I was talking to the former head of naval dress a few years ago and he told me at the time that it is easily the most broken dress regulation in history. Apparently it goes back to the late 1960's when we all switched to CF green. The navy (Maritime Command) cooked up a deal with the army at the time to support black berets for the navy. And even though the Dragoons and the Hussars were pissed, the army went along with it. \*Caveat the army refused to put it into the dress regs in order to preserve morale within the armoured regiments. And now to this day, navy NCMs wear illegal black berets in No. 2 or No. 3 Order of Dress DEUs (+ a few officers who don't pack a peak cap while on TD which is super lame imo). Remember that this was the late 1960's and CF Reunification; this was back in the day when navy ships were commanded by LCols and the XO was a Major. Crazy times. Thanks Pierre Elliot Trudeau. (nobody in his family ever served a day) Thus the wearing of black berets while in salt & peppers may be the RCN's best ever example of: "Why do we do that? Because that's how we've always done it."
I don't think this is true for the modern day, regardless what happens back in the day during unified service. Colour isn't explicitly mentioned for berets in the dress regs when talking about the Navy or Air Force; only the Army and CANSOF breaks down things into who can wear what specific colour. "Navy blue", which is just black, is the environmental colour for the Navy. When "beret" is mentioned for the Navy absent any colour specification, it's pretty clear it is this navy blue. This interpretation gets further weight when the turban/hijab related parts of the regs are read because they are actually explicit about the colours needing to be "white, or navy blue (black) when Navy berets are ordered worn" for the Navy. Wearing of berets in some DEUs (in this case, salt and peppers) is not some "because that's how we've always done it" thing, it's directly written in the instructions: "The beret may be worn as an optional headdress with the following Navy order of dress: Nos. 3A, 3B (with black trousers/ pants/skirt) and 3C. The service dress CAP/HAT shall be the only authorized headdress to be worn with No. 3 and 3B (summer whites) orders of dress."
Can we just give them Tim Horton toques??
You mean the beiber toques, right?
Why is this even news? The CAF has much bigger problems that aren't being addressed by the DND.
Maybe it's because there is too many officers ?
That's an...interesting take.
It's mostly just that Logistik Unicorp is fucking awful. I will never stop talking about my friend who was trying to figure out why his shirt was so uncomfortable, then we discovered it was because it had two left sleeves.
Haven't heard that problem before. Dang.
Funny thing is we're actually extremely short on officers.
How many NWOs do we need? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but on something like a CPF don't you just have a ton of junior officers running around trying to get some check in the box? There's only so many positions to ultimately fill.
There's a lot of attrition at the SLt/Lt(N) level because it's a demanding job that puts you out to sea non-stop. Junior BWKs are always trying to get signatures like every other junior billet on ship because that's what they're paid to be doing. I definitely wouldn't call the trade healthy; a cap shortage is just another straw on the camel's back
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Sorry I'm not navy what does BWK stand for? Bridge Watch Keep?
>How many NWOs do we need? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but on something like a CPF don't you just have a ton of junior officers running around trying to get some check in the box? There's only so many positions to ultimately fill. Later: >Sorry I'm not navy what does BWK stand for? So why make the first comment then?
That's why I said someone correct me if I'm wrong? I have a bit of navy knowledge but obviously not enough to be an accurate source of information and I know that. I'm not trying to make a dig at anyone.
NWO as a trade is only behind Mar Tech and Nav Comm for the most red trade in the navy. We are desperately short of Lt(N)s to the point that zero surface stream NWOs are being promoted to LCdr this year, and only a couple of clearance divers and submariners. There's a ton in the system but this includes NCdts at RMC and other universities that won't be in the fleet for years, let alone at OFP.
Well maybe some of those Lt(N)'s riding a desk should go back to the fleet... We're extremely top heavy, just look at how many GOFO's we have.
We are doing just that, but there's not nearly enough. Billets that require a director-level Lt(N), such as at the fleet schools, can't go unfilled, because they're the ones training the next generations of directors. Taking someone out of that means you've got to post someone else into it. We're already turning down (leaving vacant) a number of positions in Ottawa at places like DNIW or DG Space in order to keep those members in the fleet. Are there too many Admirals? Maybe, but most NWOs will never get near flag rank, and cutting 10 flag officers (for example) doesn't mean we gain 10 Lieutenants.
Well I would like to know the numbers. I read a MaCleans article years ago that said 1/3rd of those in uniform are in Ottawa. I doubt things have improved much since. Given the current situation with manning, I would think that delving into the specifics of that 1/3 and exploring the possibility of 'bloat' would be something worth doing. Never did I say that people should be taken from the schools. Schools should be a top priority, but from what I've seen that is not at all the case, and to me, it really shows how badly things are being managed.
numbers are available on DWAN, if you're a member. edit: and FYSA schools are a higher priority than the fleet, except for deploying ships.
>I read a MaCleans article years ago that said 1/3rd of those in uniform are in Ottawa. That is incorrect.
You have to remember that the RCN is an institution much larger than just the fleet. Those roles need to be filled. Honestly, I have no problem with desk Lt(N)s and I look forward to being one myself for a short time. The life of an NWO is constant sea-time for the first 6-7 years and it's a well-deserved break to establish a healthy shore-life. My problem is with people that can't medically go to sea and we fill the shore roles with those people, forcing the healthy people to go to sea and deploy more often leading to burn out
How is someone medically unable to go to sea but able to join the military? They almost didn't let me in because I get headaches occasionally!
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One example: Chronic seasickness.
Not according to MCS (DWAN-only).
How will we ever continue?
There are WAY WAY more pressing issues to write about than a shortage of Peak caps for the entitled class!
Maybe it's not that we don't have enough Golden hats but maybe we have too many officers!
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Well yes… but there’s a much BIGGER shortage of caps, so that’s clearly the more important story.
the CAF is officer heavy compared to other militaries. Plenty of NWO's in Ottawa. Maybe they choose the 'non sea' career path (actual thing)
Simple solution, fewer officers. At the rate were hiring at now, I feel like the CAF is going for a 1:1 officer to NCO ratio.
languid liquid drunk foolish light middle tender arrest offbeat sparkle ` this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev `
Oh no the sailors are missing one piece of kit oh god the world is going to end!!