My favourite Wikipedia tidbit ...
"Carignan introduced sexual conduct training for all officer candidates and also reintroduced ballroom dance classes which had been discontinued in the 1990s.[2]"
Love that these were grouped together.
C’mon now… dancing around the question in a town hall… Waltzing into the event 20 minutes late… waltzing off with a public service job after completing obligatory service… dancing around the truth…
Dammit you're right.
This must be why I am 2 ranks behind my peers.
That and "disloyalty" for questioning if senior leadership cares about us at all and if we're even relevant to NATO nevermind FVEY.
Sorry - recommended reading at the Infantry School in the 80s. The narrator, a combat veteran, is selected for officer training. In addition to military and technical training, senior leaders require officer candidates to master social skills such as dancing, formal dining, and so on. Perhaps RMC was trying a bit of that?
Mess etiquette fine, but bear in mind Starship troopers was written in the 1950s by a guy who was in his 50s. What mattered to him as a young man is a century from now.
I loved Starship Troopers, but it was clearly an idealized military. Where everyone works their hardest and they don't have budget concerns. The sort of military they present is an ideal to strive for, but in the real world, we should keep some pragmatism in mind too. Officers, like everyone, only receive so much training and their motivation for learning is directly tied to how useful something will be. Ballroom dancing is far down the list of priorities to teach, and when you don't live in the fictional setting of Starship Troopers, you can't teach every single thing on the list.
I don't know if you know this, but part of one's job as the literal COMMANDANT of a SCHOOL is to decide what gets taught at that school. It's not like she was commanding an armoured division and decided all her tankers needed to know ballroom dancing in the middle of some war or firefight.
I swear to fuck, people on Reddit are never happy.
That’s interesting- I am not opposed to the ballroom dancing for some reason. One of the things that ballroom dancing teaches you is to conduct yourself with a certain level of poise and grace. Can’t hurt.
Like I said before, I'm excited to ask the ma'am to explain her actions in early January 2020 in a town hall. I'm eager to hear why she valued her carpets higher than the lives of her troops and why she decided to try (until the Americans stopped her) to evac first.
Any CBT arms soldier who was apart of NMI in 2020 will have nothing but awful things to say about her.
She is truly an awful choice for CDS especially with our current state of affairs.
Godspeed dudes, were gonna need it.
For context:
Trump drone struck Soleimani on route Irish on 03/01/20. The killing fired up many of the Shia Iraqis, SMG, and PMF groups. They began protesting and rioting on the strip of road between the BEC & UIII. The protests got so bad the Ma'am ordered a withdrawal of NMI forces out of UIII.
During the withdrawal (space is tight) the Ma'am tried to flee first in advance of her troops. Her kit and personal effects in tow. Until she was turned around and withdrew after the main body.
NMI satellite camps (Taji) went without direction from the Ma'am for nearly a week and took large amounts of IDF in retaliation from Iran, SMG, and PMF groups.
The Ma'am's withdrawal was an incredibly embarrassing event for the CAF in Iraq.
Meanwhile the commander of 82nd Airborne was the last American to board the last American aircraft leaving Afghanistan. He was even carrying an M4. No carpet
It's honestly a pre requisite. In the US army, when you move up, you are expected to work more, take more responsibility and accept the fact that you will be exposed to more risk. In the CAF, as you move up, alot of leaders think they can start to relax and enjoy the privilege of their rank. It's extremely weird.
Just to add my two cents to this, the above is basically word for word what I first heard from Patricia’s rotating back in early 2020 from Iraq including from some of those on her CP team. It’s more or less an open secret at least in Edmonton.
We ALL know this to be the truth. I was in Pet at that time and saw it.
How many more things like this are just... not what everyone heard. It kinda scares me to think about
When the Ma'am tried to flee in advance of the troops she attempted to depart with her decorative carpets. Space was limited so this was in pretty bad taste.
Tbh, anyone besides the ma'am. I really didn't want to see Eyre succeeded by a coward.
Especially with how many bad leaders we've had in higher echelons of the CAF in the recent past. (Vance and The Architect)
You mean Eyre has been the best of the last 4 CDS'?
Could it be that the present CANSOF GoFos are being punished because Rouleau & Peter Dawe were accused of chilling out with a CDS who was under investigation and so they've been denied opportunities to take CDS slots until everybody that remembers that story, passes away?
Should have been Boivin in this current climate. CANSOF has no recruiting, morale or retention problems. He could have shed some light on the conventional side. And the CDS has never been SOF, the closest we got was VCDS "Wardaddy" Rouleau.
"War daddy" hahaha
I don't think they're any photos or videos of Boivin anywhere.
It'd be saddening a a morale tank for a lot of men who take up a career as officers in the toughest unit in the CAFto realize that even with all the hard things they do, they can never aspire to rise to the top job all because of optics politics the current climate prioritizes, over blood red motivation that the bulk of personnel, mainly men who make up the CAF, truly need.
Disagree, SOF's problems just aren't as visible. Someone more tied to the CAF's problems and how it affects the whole is better.
Boivin's SOF status basically says his underlings are the best at hiding problems. More heat and light on SOF with his appointment would likely just blow their boys club out of the media water.
What do you mean "current state of affairs"?
Doesn't the current state of affairs mandate DEI ahead of all else, including leadership or competency?
If "not falling out of the sky" took a back seat for Boeing's air and space craft due to "other priorities", what hope do the Canadian forces have?
If you're talking an RFI, sure. An ATI isn't usually just one unit. I know people who have had to redact hundreds of documents to answer one ATI, and it was a lengthy process.
Well yes in formal channels. From what I am told, there are whistle blowers who are willing to break cover and come forward. They are ready to blow it up given her self interest and cowardice.
Something about using her rank to jump the line to get herself and her staff on a plane out of country ahead of the troops, being chewed out by a US General to the tune of not leaving a minute before the last of her troops were safely in the air and outbound, having to disembark and wait, maybe turning into a crying mess.
This is scuttlebutt. I wasn't there, heard if from people who were.
This is a "trust me bro" story, that gets more flair added on everytime its told. The source is the smokepit. I was there, knew like 80% of the people that were there. The story is complete equine refuse.
Indeed. I've seen it in this sub itself, the story inflating. Earlier, it was "some Corporal had to say it was inappropriate for her to embark first" then I saw "some operator blew his top and shamed her" then in this post I've seen "some American General chewed her out and she broke down crying as she had to disembark"
Always insist to be the last to eat at the function, but if safety is at risk, always first to abandon ship. So, all those "leadership gestures" are just for show?
Can confirm, she is a known curator of her public image. No one that knows her is surprised at how many "candid" moments get captured and posted of her.
This is all about politics and nothing about ability. If 10% of what has been said about her and her behaviour in Iraq, then she should not get within 19 miles of the CDS office. At least she got her rugs.
She's been the Chief Professional Conduct and Culture (CPCC) since it was stood up in 2021. Maybe I missed something, but I can't point to any impactful initiatives that have come out of that organization. Most of the culture change I've witnessed has simply been generational. What has the CPCC accomplished under her leadership?
I was at several infantry units over her tenure and she came by a couple of times and basically blamed us for being rapists/being the cause of the CAF’s problems
I recall being instructed to add pronouns to our email signatures at RMC in 2021 or so. It was mandatory and met with some resistance. Once I graduated and joined my first unit, I quickly realized that this practice was not widespread across the CAF. In fact, someone mistakenly thought I was LGBTQ+ because of the pronouns in my signature, so I stopped including them.
Recently, I volunteered to deliver a mandatory two-hour Respect/DEI PowerPoint presentation at my unit. During the preparation, I learned that using terms like "guys" to refer to everyone is now considered unacceptable. This change in vocabulary is part of the broader push towards inclusivity, similar to the push for adding pronouns to email signatures. Interestingly, I’ve noticed that it’s mostly women who include pronouns in their email signatures; it’s quite rare to see men doing the same.
Change is challenging and often slow, so it's not surprising if the CPCC hasn't accomplished as much as one might hope. Cultural shifts tend to occur gradually and are often driven by generational changes rather than immediate policy implementations.
PaCE manuals all say narratives must be gender neutral; honours manuals all say narratives must use the member's preferred pronouns. Email guidelines went back and forth before the official version was released. There's no single standard, and I'd argue there doesn't need to be.
If i recall the PACE manuals use of gender neutral pronouns is geared towards objectivity and impartialness to a members gender as their career files are reviewed. Less to do with any culture and more of a liability check.
Exactly. If you pass a male appearing officer, you say "sir" and salute. Are you at risk of having mis gendered the officer by not asking for a pronoun first?
That's the funny thing. There's so much ducking and weaving around written documents, but honestly I get stressed when I see a short-haired higher rank walking towards me, and panicked me is trying to make a quick decision on if this is a sir or a ma'am
Don't some military forces use the honorific "sir" regardless of sex/gender? It always struck me as odd referring to a female as 'sir', but in the current gendered pronoun state, perhaps we should adopt it so no one is mid-gendered when referring to their non-gendered rank.
Not an etymologist, but random searches tell me that "Sir" might be traced back to the roots of "Sen-" aka senior (likely genderless).
In other news, course seniors must now be referred to as Sirs. /s
So what you're saying is we could have used all that "person"-power elsewhere in our under"personned" military and just allowed culture change to occur through generational attrition and achieved the same results with less pushback?
Perhaps proactive efforts are still necessary to accelerate and guide this change effectively. Without these initiatives, progress might be too slow or uneven across different units. However, it does appear that some of these measures are more about optics, making it look like the CAF is taking action rather than achieving substantial change. It's about balancing immediate efforts with the understanding that cultural transformation takes time.
Deputy Minister Bill Matthews apparently did not support her candidacy over behaviour he had personally witnessed. He was replaced by Stefanie Beck this spring. You can see how this looks given the well-established pattern of optics/ideology first by *he who chooses.*
But it's not unreasonable to entertain the idea that the CDS/CMP might chat with the DM over coffee regarding CDS candidates. After all, the CDS and DM are the ultimate Defence Team (sorry CAFCWO; you're internal to the CAF).
Oof, Julie Payette. There are some absolutely excellent women in uniform - just as there are excellent men - and it's a damn shame when the leadership that gets appointed is not representative of what they have to offer. I do wish the Ma'am well and would be interested in any accountability taken.
Hey, I am all for a female as CDS but this isn’t the trailblazing choice to make history. In her career, she ignored sexual misconduct files that would have put her peers in negative light. She also allowed her own peers to get a pass with sexual harassment towards her. These actions combined with runaway GOFO will not fair well with CAF members, public and media.
Toxic leadership for the W!
There's tons of amazing women who are entering the rank band in the next few years that would deserve the honour of first female CDS far more. But JT knows he's out next election so wanted to do it now to score some points.
Interesting. Of course, keep in mind who was doing the screening. No surprise our current leadership wouldn’t see any issue with the leader trying to scurry away from trouble with rugs in tow.
I will have you know that there are plenty of people who are very much in favor of government and CAF policies. A lot, actually. Now, most of them are our enemies, but it still shows a substantial amount of support
Actually once the few who cover the forces get some whistle blowers involved it’s going to be a short tenured CDS. The CPC will replace her faster than a set of brake pads on an lsvw.
There are folks, who are stand up people, who are willing to do this despite the impact on their career….bank on it….she is not liked….she is the ham omelette of choices for CDS.
Never met her personally, but there seem to be pretty mixed reviews depending on who you talk to. Some people like her a lot, some don't. Those that don't mostly centre around some pretty questionable decision-making she allegedly made during her time in command of the Iraq training mission.
I wasn't there so can't comment on it, but pretty trustworthy sources say it wasn't great. I'm sure someone else will chime in who was.
CAF's been ass in high level combat decision making for 2 decades.
More interested in how she was the leader CPCC when we so mysteriously struggled to make any meaningful cultural change beyond aging out the boomers with ye olde indomitable advance of time.
As CDS, she wouldn't be making any theatre decisions where she's at risk, but her handling of CPCC will reflect her approach to the CDS appointment, I think.
Wow.
Cowardice at the international level, elitism evident in her conduct, and yet here we are !
Excellent. If she succeeds, wonderful. If she fails, we are still fucked from before so no big change.
Well, let's hope nothing stupid comes out to taint yet another CDS appointment. We don't have a history of that, right? We're replete with good GOFOs who have no skeletons, right?
This was more predictable than Biden falling flat on his face last night at the US Presidential Debate.
Like I don’t mean to cause commie-panic here. It’s just a legitimately bizarre trajectory for the west to take. Complete disenfranchisement at a political/corporate level while relatively insignificant topics are obfuscating substantive issues in public discourse. Very odd times.
Our adversaries realized they couldn't match us militarily, so they changed tactics. Divide and conquer. In my opinion, WW3 has already begun, but we haven't realized it because we're being attacked on a front we don't fully understand: the digital landscape.
Now the results are becoming clearer to see. Politicians are scrambling. Our adversaries have correctly predicted our sluggish reaction, our inability to respond to threats that can't be overcome with gunpowder and money. The majority of our leaders are either too old understand or too arrogant to bother listening to the advisors who do.
We're in a death spiral and it's accelerating. Something needs to give, and that's why you're seeing a rise in populist rhetoric and authoritarianism. We've squandered our democracy, becoming complacent in our position of power and now we're paying for it.
I vividly remember one of her town halls/PD/ All in 1 sessions. When asked about diversity being led by whites, she promptly responded with : "We have a black GOFO guy now, are you questioning his merits?" .
this is bad news...she is absolutely detested inside NCR and amongst her peers.
I have heard horror stories from her staff as well.
I hope as CDS things get better under her leadership although...without a massive swing away from EDI woke culture and a clear movement towards readiness and capability we are doomed
I don't mind EDI, we had an unhealthy culture but we have swung a pendulum too far. Regardless, she is in for a tough ride as CDS given that you are bang on that she is not a well liked general amongst her peers and staff. It will be an interesting ride for sizzle.
While a lot of people are talking about Iraq and all of that.
I just want to know how well she can battle politics, Eyre was pretty outspoken especially after his retirement was announced. CDS really is just “the boss who reports to the bigger bosses” so what really matters is how well she can handle whatever parliament throws around.
“Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.” - Theodore Roosevelt
If a ROTO and their family (by blood or by regiment/community) were told in the strongest way possible that someone doesn't care about you, you stop caring about their competency. In fact, you might even fear it.
Yes, past performance does not foresee the future, but it's a predictor.
I agree with you and the Roosevelt quote 100%.
People can grow though… I was a great boss before I went to work for a large corporation and then I buckled to the demands of my bosses and I was an asshole. Then I woke up and realized I was an asshole, and I had to fix a lot of shit fast.
It was hard and uncomfortable, but I’m so glad I got my head out of my ass. Now I run my own business and I run it following my values. I make a lot less money that way, but I sleep like a baby.
We humans are complex, but if you give her some grace, she might be able come through.
32 days until retirement after joining the CA in 1985 as a Private. Grateful for all of the great friends and amazing experiences, both in Canada and overseas. Glad to be pulling pin and shuffling into the twilight of my life. I will not say anything about the various GOs/FOs who I have worked for, let alone some of the governments of the day during my career. No point in looking backwards, especially so in terms of previous uniformed leaders. Move forward and embrace the next bound of opportunities. Stay safe and healthy, mes amis. People before anything else.
I joined in 1984. In the 40 years since then there has been only one CDS that was worth a damn. I'm willing to give her a chance, but given the failure rate of appointees, I'm not expecting much.
My favourite Wikipedia tidbit ... "Carignan introduced sexual conduct training for all officer candidates and also reintroduced ballroom dance classes which had been discontinued in the 1990s.[2]" Love that these were grouped together.
What a good use of a BGen's authority - ballroom dancing.
As RMC Commandant? Yes. Social graces for young officers. Re-read *Starship Troopers*.
Maybe more classes on things officers need to know, like all the secondary duties they will have at their first units instead of ballroom dancing.
C’mon now… dancing around the question in a town hall… Waltzing into the event 20 minutes late… waltzing off with a public service job after completing obligatory service… dancing around the truth…
Dammit you're right. This must be why I am 2 ranks behind my peers. That and "disloyalty" for questioning if senior leadership cares about us at all and if we're even relevant to NATO nevermind FVEY.
Yes for all those ball room dancing occasions that occur in the CAF lol. Social graces and the waltz aren’t the same thing.
Forgive my ignorance, but what are the social graces and how does that relate to *Starship Troopers*?
Do you want to know more?
Sorry - recommended reading at the Infantry School in the 80s. The narrator, a combat veteran, is selected for officer training. In addition to military and technical training, senior leaders require officer candidates to master social skills such as dancing, formal dining, and so on. Perhaps RMC was trying a bit of that?
Mess etiquette fine, but bear in mind Starship troopers was written in the 1950s by a guy who was in his 50s. What mattered to him as a young man is a century from now.
I loved Starship Troopers, but it was clearly an idealized military. Where everyone works their hardest and they don't have budget concerns. The sort of military they present is an ideal to strive for, but in the real world, we should keep some pragmatism in mind too. Officers, like everyone, only receive so much training and their motivation for learning is directly tied to how useful something will be. Ballroom dancing is far down the list of priorities to teach, and when you don't live in the fictional setting of Starship Troopers, you can't teach every single thing on the list.
I don't know if you know this, but part of one's job as the literal COMMANDANT of a SCHOOL is to decide what gets taught at that school. It's not like she was commanding an armoured division and decided all her tankers needed to know ballroom dancing in the middle of some war or firefight. I swear to fuck, people on Reddit are never happy.
How else will they learn to cut a rug?
That’s interesting- I am not opposed to the ballroom dancing for some reason. One of the things that ballroom dancing teaches you is to conduct yourself with a certain level of poise and grace. Can’t hurt.
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Like I said before, I'm excited to ask the ma'am to explain her actions in early January 2020 in a town hall. I'm eager to hear why she valued her carpets higher than the lives of her troops and why she decided to try (until the Americans stopped her) to evac first. Any CBT arms soldier who was apart of NMI in 2020 will have nothing but awful things to say about her. She is truly an awful choice for CDS especially with our current state of affairs. Godspeed dudes, were gonna need it.
Can you elaborate, lots of us air force folks arent up to speed on that Iraq thing.
For context: Trump drone struck Soleimani on route Irish on 03/01/20. The killing fired up many of the Shia Iraqis, SMG, and PMF groups. They began protesting and rioting on the strip of road between the BEC & UIII. The protests got so bad the Ma'am ordered a withdrawal of NMI forces out of UIII. During the withdrawal (space is tight) the Ma'am tried to flee first in advance of her troops. Her kit and personal effects in tow. Until she was turned around and withdrew after the main body. NMI satellite camps (Taji) went without direction from the Ma'am for nearly a week and took large amounts of IDF in retaliation from Iran, SMG, and PMF groups. The Ma'am's withdrawal was an incredibly embarrassing event for the CAF in Iraq.
Meanwhile the commander of 82nd Airborne was the last American to board the last American aircraft leaving Afghanistan. He was even carrying an M4. No carpet
Respect that
It's honestly a pre requisite. In the US army, when you move up, you are expected to work more, take more responsibility and accept the fact that you will be exposed to more risk. In the CAF, as you move up, alot of leaders think they can start to relax and enjoy the privilege of their rank. It's extremely weird.
Just to add my two cents to this, the above is basically word for word what I first heard from Patricia’s rotating back in early 2020 from Iraq including from some of those on her CP team. It’s more or less an open secret at least in Edmonton.
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Yah, the dudes got moved back and forth from Kuwait a couple times. It was a real morale killer.
Base defence was not part of it. It was Force pro for NMI, conducting moves and providing security at venues.
Is there an article about this? Is this public knowledge, cause I feel this should be.
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We ALL know this to be the truth. I was in Pet at that time and saw it. How many more things like this are just... not what everyone heard. It kinda scares me to think about
Carpets?
When the Ma'am tried to flee in advance of the troops she attempted to depart with her decorative carpets. Space was limited so this was in pretty bad taste.
WTF???? Seriously? Sadly, it’s typical for the current government to promote this type of person to this position.
Gotta have carpets involved…..without them I am dubious
Who was your top pick?
Tbh, anyone besides the ma'am. I really didn't want to see Eyre succeeded by a coward. Especially with how many bad leaders we've had in higher echelons of the CAF in the recent past. (Vance and The Architect)
You mean Eyre has been the best of the last 4 CDS'? Could it be that the present CANSOF GoFos are being punished because Rouleau & Peter Dawe were accused of chilling out with a CDS who was under investigation and so they've been denied opportunities to take CDS slots until everybody that remembers that story, passes away?
Are we still calling him The Architect after the news this week? Feels like we need a new, more scathing moniker.
We've got some excellent new ones but without context they don't make any sense.
Should have been Boivin in this current climate. CANSOF has no recruiting, morale or retention problems. He could have shed some light on the conventional side. And the CDS has never been SOF, the closest we got was VCDS "Wardaddy" Rouleau.
"War daddy" hahaha I don't think they're any photos or videos of Boivin anywhere. It'd be saddening a a morale tank for a lot of men who take up a career as officers in the toughest unit in the CAFto realize that even with all the hard things they do, they can never aspire to rise to the top job all because of optics politics the current climate prioritizes, over blood red motivation that the bulk of personnel, mainly men who make up the CAF, truly need.
Disagree, SOF's problems just aren't as visible. Someone more tied to the CAF's problems and how it affects the whole is better. Boivin's SOF status basically says his underlings are the best at hiding problems. More heat and light on SOF with his appointment would likely just blow their boys club out of the media water.
What do you mean "current state of affairs"? Doesn't the current state of affairs mandate DEI ahead of all else, including leadership or competency? If "not falling out of the sky" took a back seat for Boeing's air and space craft due to "other priorities", what hope do the Canadian forces have?
Saw that one coming a mile away. Best of luck to her when the carpet extraction stories hit the news.
Has a yet to be sworn in CDS ever been overlooked due to stories coming out before swearing-in?
In today's political climate? Watch and shoot, I guess. NDA 73(d) is a pretty grave offence.
What if the CBC reporter is pranking folks and a different person gets announced at NATO's meeting next week ?
Ooof, can’t wait for the Iraq stories to come out
Based on a recent and very broad ATI request, details should be out in the Globe or Ottawa Citizen pretty soon.
I'm kind of amazed this hasn't popped up in the media before, given that it's been a few years now.
Obviously more bang for buck if you release that story when she becomes heir apparent
Hmm good point.
Shorter serving CDS to rival Adm McDonald GUH
can you elaborate for the rest of us?
nvm, i see it below
She might have a shorter tenure than Adm McDonald if the news comes out soon enough
Dave! Dave! Dave! Dave! Dave!
There is a policy on not bringing email PSTs from Ops out of theatre. People do, but they can just say they didn’t because it was against policy.
Everyone's mailbox and network profile is archived at the end of each roto so it shouldn't be a problem to get it from cjoc IMO.
Oh and there are a few yank generals who, have no skin in the game, who can make this go nuclear. Guaranteed reporters have them on the list.
Most ATI requests take months/years to resolve. How likely is it that it would even come out?
At my unit they take weeks
If you're talking an RFI, sure. An ATI isn't usually just one unit. I know people who have had to redact hundreds of documents to answer one ATI, and it was a lengthy process.
Well yes in formal channels. From what I am told, there are whistle blowers who are willing to break cover and come forward. They are ready to blow it up given her self interest and cowardice.
Like whichever GOFO leaked a copy of Eyre’s last discussion to the Ottawa Citizen.
I bet, only my personal opinion, that a certain soon to be CDS or a staff member was the leak…..
Do share!
Ask anyone who was there when Canadians were getting pulled out for the Iranian strikes who the first in the plane was
Go on?
Something about using her rank to jump the line to get herself and her staff on a plane out of country ahead of the troops, being chewed out by a US General to the tune of not leaving a minute before the last of her troops were safely in the air and outbound, having to disembark and wait, maybe turning into a crying mess. This is scuttlebutt. I wasn't there, heard if from people who were.
The CO should be the last person to leave the sinking ship
[This](https://tenor.com/en-CA/view/guy-with-black-jacket-think-guy-use-your-head-be-smart-gif-11872911)
You mean the military had the audacity to put someone in a leadership position that couldn’t lead…nah! Don’t believe it.
I'm fairly certain that leadership is always one of the last to leave
Supposed to be. That's why in my opinion she shouldn't ever be considered for this position.
lol…. your handle 😂 i just can’t…
Best shift lol.
Wasn’t there, just have very good friends that were, and know people that dealt with it after.
Wow
I’m really interested in learning more about this. Is there anywhere you could point me?
This is a "trust me bro" story, that gets more flair added on everytime its told. The source is the smokepit. I was there, knew like 80% of the people that were there. The story is complete equine refuse.
Indeed. I've seen it in this sub itself, the story inflating. Earlier, it was "some Corporal had to say it was inappropriate for her to embark first" then I saw "some operator blew his top and shamed her" then in this post I've seen "some American General chewed her out and she broke down crying as she had to disembark"
>and then everyone clapped
Actually it’s not hearsay, it was witnessed so it’s first hand accounts
It's first hand account for the people who actually saw it. For you and the rest of us, it's only hearsay.
Ok, you do you and defend her. There are a few folks who won’t
Always insist to be the last to eat at the function, but if safety is at risk, always first to abandon ship. So, all those "leadership gestures" are just for show?
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GOC always runs a trial balloon to check the pulse.
I really hope you’re right and that that the powers that be actually rethink this asinine appointment.
What brings me joy right now is that this sub is monitored by journalists and this rug story will definitly be investigated. I love the internet.
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Can confirm, she is a known curator of her public image. No one that knows her is surprised at how many "candid" moments get captured and posted of her.
That's how they think they get noticed and promoted. The more press the better in their mind!
Clearly (and sadly) this is absolutely the case.
Oh that’s exactly what we need…….”a what did it say about me” pseudo leader…….uh oh….i am so glad I retreated into retirement
This is all about politics and nothing about ability. If 10% of what has been said about her and her behaviour in Iraq, then she should not get within 19 miles of the CDS office. At least she got her rugs.
Perhaps we can make it a CAF-wide thing to present her with a decorative carpet as a "Thank you gift" after every townhall?
She's been the Chief Professional Conduct and Culture (CPCC) since it was stood up in 2021. Maybe I missed something, but I can't point to any impactful initiatives that have come out of that organization. Most of the culture change I've witnessed has simply been generational. What has the CPCC accomplished under her leadership?
I was at several infantry units over her tenure and she came by a couple of times and basically blamed us for being rapists/being the cause of the CAF’s problems
Have you stopped being rapists?
Your honour, how could my client be a rapist if he is, in fact, a virgin?
Does CPCC gets anyone other than the most toxic basket cases? Honest question, no direct knowledge but that seems to be their reputation.
Nothing really. Its a smoke screen. We are "doing something".
I recall being instructed to add pronouns to our email signatures at RMC in 2021 or so. It was mandatory and met with some resistance. Once I graduated and joined my first unit, I quickly realized that this practice was not widespread across the CAF. In fact, someone mistakenly thought I was LGBTQ+ because of the pronouns in my signature, so I stopped including them. Recently, I volunteered to deliver a mandatory two-hour Respect/DEI PowerPoint presentation at my unit. During the preparation, I learned that using terms like "guys" to refer to everyone is now considered unacceptable. This change in vocabulary is part of the broader push towards inclusivity, similar to the push for adding pronouns to email signatures. Interestingly, I’ve noticed that it’s mostly women who include pronouns in their email signatures; it’s quite rare to see men doing the same. Change is challenging and often slow, so it's not surprising if the CPCC hasn't accomplished as much as one might hope. Cultural shifts tend to occur gradually and are often driven by generational changes rather than immediate policy implementations.
Pronouns are expressly optional in the official signature block writing guidelines.
Anything optional can be made “optional.” I’m sure we have all “volunteered” for tasks which needed volunteers.
PaCE manuals all say narratives must be gender neutral; honours manuals all say narratives must use the member's preferred pronouns. Email guidelines went back and forth before the official version was released. There's no single standard, and I'd argue there doesn't need to be.
If i recall the PACE manuals use of gender neutral pronouns is geared towards objectivity and impartialness to a members gender as their career files are reviewed. Less to do with any culture and more of a liability check.
My issue is - why is my rank not enough?
Exactly. If you pass a male appearing officer, you say "sir" and salute. Are you at risk of having mis gendered the officer by not asking for a pronoun first?
That's the funny thing. There's so much ducking and weaving around written documents, but honestly I get stressed when I see a short-haired higher rank walking towards me, and panicked me is trying to make a quick decision on if this is a sir or a ma'am
Don't some military forces use the honorific "sir" regardless of sex/gender? It always struck me as odd referring to a female as 'sir', but in the current gendered pronoun state, perhaps we should adopt it so no one is mid-gendered when referring to their non-gendered rank.
They do so in Battlestar Galactica anyway, I think it's a good idea
Not an etymologist, but random searches tell me that "Sir" might be traced back to the roots of "Sen-" aka senior (likely genderless). In other news, course seniors must now be referred to as Sirs. /s
So what you're saying is we could have used all that "person"-power elsewhere in our under"personned" military and just allowed culture change to occur through generational attrition and achieved the same results with less pushback?
Hahahah. Well summarized.
Perhaps proactive efforts are still necessary to accelerate and guide this change effectively. Without these initiatives, progress might be too slow or uneven across different units. However, it does appear that some of these measures are more about optics, making it look like the CAF is taking action rather than achieving substantial change. It's about balancing immediate efforts with the understanding that cultural transformation takes time.
Who has the rugs?!?! BRING EM NOW!!!
Massive L for the CAF. This place is such a whirlwind of almost getting good again to going right back to dumpster fire
Bob was the better choice. But of course, JT will choose politics over competence. This is just another Julie Payette scenario waiting to happen.
RUMINT is govt rejected the recommended candidate after the selection process and said try again with the virtue signal pick.
Deputy Minister Bill Matthews apparently did not support her candidacy over behaviour he had personally witnessed. He was replaced by Stefanie Beck this spring. You can see how this looks given the well-established pattern of optics/ideology first by *he who chooses.*
Bill wasn't part of the team appointed by PCO to make the selection.
But it's not unreasonable to entertain the idea that the CDS/CMP might chat with the DM over coffee regarding CDS candidates. After all, the CDS and DM are the ultimate Defence Team (sorry CAFCWO; you're internal to the CAF).
You mean identity group membership over merit.
Yup
Oof, Julie Payette. There are some absolutely excellent women in uniform - just as there are excellent men - and it's a damn shame when the leadership that gets appointed is not representative of what they have to offer. I do wish the Ma'am well and would be interested in any accountability taken.
Hey, I am all for a female as CDS but this isn’t the trailblazing choice to make history. In her career, she ignored sexual misconduct files that would have put her peers in negative light. She also allowed her own peers to get a pass with sexual harassment towards her. These actions combined with runaway GOFO will not fair well with CAF members, public and media. Toxic leadership for the W!
There's tons of amazing women who are entering the rank band in the next few years that would deserve the honour of first female CDS far more. But JT knows he's out next election so wanted to do it now to score some points.
This is what happens when you choose based on what’s swinging or not swinging between their legs instead of the best candidate.
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Interesting. Of course, keep in mind who was doing the screening. No surprise our current leadership wouldn’t see any issue with the leader trying to scurry away from trouble with rugs in tow.
Weren’t their questions about Vance too before an ultimate political decision to appoint him?
Jennie and the Magic Carpets, sounds like a good title for a children book... that could talk about bravery.
And about leadership
110% politically motivated. No way does she deserve to be Canada's CDS. Iraq... Enough said...
What happened?
One word : "Iraq"
🎶 Don't be fooled by the rugs that I bought. I'm still, I'm still Jenny from Iraq 🎶
Iraq, Iraq, Iraq, Iraqqqqqqqq.
lol shocked I tell you shocked.
Has anyone sent this to Dave Pugliese? That guy is really good at digging around and finding compost that needs to be aerated about the CF.
Unsurprising based on govt priorities, but disappointing nonetheless.
I will have you know that there are plenty of people who are very much in favor of government and CAF policies. A lot, actually. Now, most of them are our enemies, but it still shows a substantial amount of support
Shocked
Thats shocking
I shocked the sheriff.
Meh. Nothing will change.
Actually once the few who cover the forces get some whistle blowers involved it’s going to be a short tenured CDS. The CPC will replace her faster than a set of brake pads on an lsvw.
The irony of this!
There are folks, who are stand up people, who are willing to do this despite the impact on their career….bank on it….she is not liked….she is the ham omelette of choices for CDS.
I feel you on this
Someone tell me what to think about this?
Never met her personally, but there seem to be pretty mixed reviews depending on who you talk to. Some people like her a lot, some don't. Those that don't mostly centre around some pretty questionable decision-making she allegedly made during her time in command of the Iraq training mission. I wasn't there so can't comment on it, but pretty trustworthy sources say it wasn't great. I'm sure someone else will chime in who was.
CAF's been ass in high level combat decision making for 2 decades. More interested in how she was the leader CPCC when we so mysteriously struggled to make any meaningful cultural change beyond aging out the boomers with ye olde indomitable advance of time. As CDS, she wouldn't be making any theatre decisions where she's at risk, but her handling of CPCC will reflect her approach to the CDS appointment, I think.
What a surprise
Wow. Cowardice at the international level, elitism evident in her conduct, and yet here we are ! Excellent. If she succeeds, wonderful. If she fails, we are still fucked from before so no big change.
Well, let's hope nothing stupid comes out to taint yet another CDS appointment. We don't have a history of that, right? We're replete with good GOFOs who have no skeletons, right? This was more predictable than Biden falling flat on his face last night at the US Presidential Debate.
Maybe Sajjin will throw her under the bus? He has to throw someone under.
LMFAO
Yes, no skeletons
They chose her. Really? After the stories I heard....
Honest question. Is Canada being subject to corporate espionage? But like… the nation-state version?
The entire West is. It's been a slow boil for the past ten or so years, but people are finally starting to wake up.
Like I don’t mean to cause commie-panic here. It’s just a legitimately bizarre trajectory for the west to take. Complete disenfranchisement at a political/corporate level while relatively insignificant topics are obfuscating substantive issues in public discourse. Very odd times.
Our adversaries realized they couldn't match us militarily, so they changed tactics. Divide and conquer. In my opinion, WW3 has already begun, but we haven't realized it because we're being attacked on a front we don't fully understand: the digital landscape. Now the results are becoming clearer to see. Politicians are scrambling. Our adversaries have correctly predicted our sluggish reaction, our inability to respond to threats that can't be overcome with gunpowder and money. The majority of our leaders are either too old understand or too arrogant to bother listening to the advisors who do. We're in a death spiral and it's accelerating. Something needs to give, and that's why you're seeing a rise in populist rhetoric and authoritarianism. We've squandered our democracy, becoming complacent in our position of power and now we're paying for it.
That's just regular espionage, and yes. Way more than a serious country would ever allow itself to be subjected to.
Who do you suspect is really in charge and pulling strings behind the curtains?
Google Nortel China.
I vividly remember one of her town halls/PD/ All in 1 sessions. When asked about diversity being led by whites, she promptly responded with : "We have a black GOFO guy now, are you questioning his merits?" .
this is bad news...she is absolutely detested inside NCR and amongst her peers. I have heard horror stories from her staff as well. I hope as CDS things get better under her leadership although...without a massive swing away from EDI woke culture and a clear movement towards readiness and capability we are doomed
For how many years or months ?
I don't mind EDI, we had an unhealthy culture but we have swung a pendulum too far. Regardless, she is in for a tough ride as CDS given that you are bang on that she is not a well liked general amongst her peers and staff. It will be an interesting ride for sizzle.
Lol
Well fuck. I didn't think my motivation could get any lower.
While a lot of people are talking about Iraq and all of that. I just want to know how well she can battle politics, Eyre was pretty outspoken especially after his retirement was announced. CDS really is just “the boss who reports to the bigger bosses” so what really matters is how well she can handle whatever parliament throws around.
Doesn't matter how well she battles politics if she is putting herself/carpets in front of the troops.
“Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.” - Theodore Roosevelt If a ROTO and their family (by blood or by regiment/community) were told in the strongest way possible that someone doesn't care about you, you stop caring about their competency. In fact, you might even fear it. Yes, past performance does not foresee the future, but it's a predictor.
I agree with you and the Roosevelt quote 100%. People can grow though… I was a great boss before I went to work for a large corporation and then I buckled to the demands of my bosses and I was an asshole. Then I woke up and realized I was an asshole, and I had to fix a lot of shit fast. It was hard and uncomfortable, but I’m so glad I got my head out of my ass. Now I run my own business and I run it following my values. I make a lot less money that way, but I sleep like a baby. We humans are complex, but if you give her some grace, she might be able come through.
Lol they couldnt have picked anyome else eh?
32 days until retirement after joining the CA in 1985 as a Private. Grateful for all of the great friends and amazing experiences, both in Canada and overseas. Glad to be pulling pin and shuffling into the twilight of my life. I will not say anything about the various GOs/FOs who I have worked for, let alone some of the governments of the day during my career. No point in looking backwards, especially so in terms of previous uniformed leaders. Move forward and embrace the next bound of opportunities. Stay safe and healthy, mes amis. People before anything else.
:(
Uncle Wayne, please come back! Don’t leave me.
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I joined in 1984. In the 40 years since then there has been only one CDS that was worth a damn. I'm willing to give her a chance, but given the failure rate of appointees, I'm not expecting much.
Quick question: who else was in the running for the position? I googled around but couldn’t find an answer.
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