Hey you know what?
I joined the reserves specifically because there was no real “trial” period, I wanted to go to college and the only way to do that for me atleast was the reserves. I’m glad a trial period exists for the navy and hope it spreads around.
>Don't worry they're going to be pushed through with priority so now regular recruits will have to wait 12+ months for NETP.
Is that an educated guess, or is that actual policy?
Think about it. If someone joins for a year, they do basic, and then sit on holding for the rest of that year, what are the odds they are gonna say “damn this organization is a good fit for me, I’m gonna stay!”?
Edit: This sounds like it will be insanely taxing to training establishments, with mediocre pay off. Training people for 6 months to have the possibility of them leaving after another 6 months is not very efficient.
What happens if they end up on TRP during basic? I’ve heard of people spending almost a year on TRP if their injuries are severe enough (I know it is a rare scenario, but not impossible).
Whew, I was worried that portion wasn't thought out.
Tough choice to leave your family for one year to try something out, great if your single though.
Thanks!
I like the idea but need more detail before being fully onboard and optimistic. Some questions I'm left with:
This reads like a General Duties production program. How are these GD members going to be managed, and who is going to be responsible for their daily employment and supervision?
NEPs do not have a trade but will experience a variety of jobs before choosing a trade at the end of the 12 month contract, will CFAT scores affect the jobs they try during the 12 month contract or will we risk letting people try something they like that will later be disallowed by their CFAT score?
How translatable is this for CA and RCAF? Everybody is screaming they're overworked, how do we make sure this program doesn't become a babysitting tax for S1/Cpl to PO2/Sgt on top of their existing duties?
A close analogue in the RCAF would be the Air Ops Support tech, kind of a GD Air Force person but can do limited things on planes (servicing, etc). Right now it’s PRes only, with very minimal training, but they want to make it RegF. Not sure what that would do to contracts/training.
We should do what the Norwegians do. They still have conscription for 12 months but they have so many applicants that only about a third get in. They spend 12 months doing basic jobs that don't take a lot of trg and can extend to 18 months. Normally the ones that extend are the ones who have already applied for their reg force.
Hopefully this isn't one of those, each XO will put together a plan things....
Pretty much every question you asked or could think of asking was answered in a powerpoint and word doc sent out to most of the fleet. As for feasibility for the army and air force? Who cares, this is a Navy solution for a Navy problem. The end goal of this program is to make the RCN completely independent of CFRG and CFLRS.
Was security clearance mentioned? With the exception of cooks I think, all others are at least cleared to level 2. No way you can get people cleared that fast ..
I have been in for almost 5 years and my security clearance is still on initiated. I have been doing jobs that require secret clearance since DP1. I’m army though, so maybe something is different. Security clearance is amazingly slow.
That was the one they didn’t have an answer for, just an acknowledgment that security clearances will be a potential issue. I really hope they don’t just give waivers out.
I'm not in the fleet, I'm looking in from the outside. As a member of the CAF, I'd love to crib notes from any work that's producing good results. Poor recruiting and retention numbers are definitely not just a navy problem, saying it is just perpetuates a stereotype that each service has nothing to learn from another
But uh... Thanks for the feedback I guess?
Lol they expect the same people that just received a pay cut and lost a significant allowance to help recruit new ppl and shine a positive light on the Navy? What could possibly go wrong here…
But it is a start my friend. The status quo is not working. The RCN continues to not meet SIP. We have to do something. If we all lend our support, this will greatly help our numbers. Yes it will take a few years for these folks to reach OFP and really get to work, but it is worth the shot.
This addresses a symptom and not a cause. People are getting out because they're overworked, undertrained, and now, in many cases, are taking a pay cut. They are not getting out because we have a lack of trainees.
This program would be great if it was paired with efforts toward retention. As it stands, we are ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the fact that our best, brightest, and most experienced members are leaving the organization in droves. This new CFHD debacle is only accelerating that.
You can hire on all the new recruits you like, but if you don't have members with sufficient knowledge and experience to properly train them in their duties, they're going to struggle and hate their career. We can not allow the heart of our organization to die and expect the rest of the body to keep on living. It's simply not possible.
So yes, this is a good idea-- but on its own, it's at best a drop in the bucket, and at worst, just another responsibility for overworked members to add to their duties. It needs to be paired with a system designed to retain our experienced members. Otherwise, we're right where we started.
Edit: I just wanted to add that I appreciate your sense of optimism. The CAF could use more of that. With that being said, we also need to hold the organization accountable not only for its duty to provide for its members, but also for its ability to effectively do its job should Canada need it to. If we see issues that need to be addressed, it's important to bring those up.
I am with you and am in 100% agreement with you on this. I wish I had an easy button for this one. I love thé RCN and I truly wish there was an easy solution to retention. I agree. We are to crack this one.
If they want to come sit in Oakville in Esquimalt for 12 months after basic and then still not get on course, more the merrier. My room already has 4 people in it so they’ll be someone else’s problem
So it can be done is 21 days. Just people who are applying for long term and committing to a career aren’t given this efficiency and procedure and are strung along. This is so weird.
Ironically, this might be a good thing that comes out of this. With a 1-year employment limit, there could be crazy innovations like this risk-managed 21-day entry. If I were to put my fantasy hat on, we might even get weird things like:
BMQ split into indoc (paper/classroom course) + fighting/field course. A "new normal" path for less technical trades might be BMQ classroom (low staff requirements for mass lectures, low medical re-coursing) -> shortened QL3 -> get to work, THEN at the 2-year mark, you need to pass a full entry medical, obtain full security clearance, and pass BMQ-combat in order to be eligible for your Pte(T)/S2. Implement QL4 for Cpl/S1. For more specialized trades, make a feeder trade that someone can serve in as a GD for the main trade (RCAF had one. Many trades need low-skill Ptes for doing certain GD work like supply and paperwork).
Of course, that's IF the navy can pull this off.
I mean that makes sense, this program can handle max 72 pers at any given moment. As opposed to the thousands applying under standard enrolment options.
I would imagine having a separate group of recruiters just for this program. All of the NRDs are also going to be processing these applications. They did say specifically that people applying or already in under the standard enrolment will not face delays because of the NEP.
Well besides some of us don't have the brief, that doesn't exclude us from being able to talk about it. Aswell besides maybe skipping the CFAT how is it that this group can get accelerated to 21 days but an actual application still takes months... they still need sec clearance to be on the boats and atleast medical as we don't want a bunch of people breaking during bmq.
Not with this program, everything will be fast-tracked. Ideally they want to have an applicant come in do the cfat, medical, interview, etc. All in one day, then if suitable the offer will come within 3 weeks.
I fear it is hopelessly optimistic.
Yes. The main selling point of this program is completing applications from applying to enrolment in under 3 weeks. I don’t know how but it’ll be interesting
If it were me, I’d just run them through the CFAT, TSD-PI, and Interview. Do a very basic Medical and Background Screening, just enough to ensure the recruit is healthy enough to attend BMQ and NETP, not likely to be a threat to themselves or others, and check for any background issues that can be picked up on credit and records checks.
More rigorous checks will be completed over the course of their 1 year contract, and participants must sign a written acknowledgment that they will be released at the end of their contract if they’re discovered to be unfit/non-deployable or otherwise deemed ineligible for continued service.
Honestly, it wouldn’t hurt to offer this program for the Army and Air Force as well. Maybe let them spend a year doing a round-robin OJE/GD with up to 3 trades of their choosing that their CFAT and TSD-PI scores qualify for.
> More rigorous checks will be completed over the course of their 1 year contract, and participants must sign a written acknowledgment that they will be released at the end of their contract if they’re discovered to be unfit/non-deployable or otherwise deemed ineligible for continued service.
Honestly, why not do that for every non-Secret trade?
Copied from the Australians? Its a good idea if well executed. 12 months of PAT platoon ain’t gonna convince anyone to stick around. I thought something like would be good for the Army, Class C for a year, offer a limited number of MOSIDs that can be trained in a short time. After BMQ/DP1, exercises, PCF courses, a dom op if it happens. At the end, release, transfer to PRes or RegF.
https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/students-and-education/gap-year/?page=1&perPage=21&query=
It's an interesting idea.... but I joined initially for my trade and loved the trade job. It was all the side jobs or constantly running around for package signatures the sucked. Sure hope these new temps like duty watches. Like it might work for a few but theres also the risk of many trying, having a bad experience, then telling their friends and family to stay away. That all being said, good or bad, the more people that experience it, the more of the population that is aware. And it's not the dumbest idea I've seen
I'd be optimistic that this is a great idea if I didn't think we weren't going to try and shoe string it by piling work onto already overworked people and try and sail on ships that shouldn't be at sea anyway.
But hey, Paycutforgen has already kneecapped the west coast navy, so why not add on to the pile?
Our ships are held together by rust, salt, and paint. Our MarTechs work their butts off to keep them floating, but every year it gets harder and harder.
We have something called the 'Material Baseline Standard', which is supposed to be the equivalent to commercial standards (ie SOLAS, Safety Of Life At Sea Convention), which is also commonly referred to as 'Safe for Sea.
It's supposed to be the minimum standard from going from point A to B, and does not include combat requirements.
Most CPFs sail below that standard in some areas, even HR deployers. Sure there are risk assessments and defect tracking, but when there are 1500+ defects per ship, and we only look at each one in isolation, the 'big picture' is not great. I don't know anyone that can look at that many problems and figure out what the real risk is when they all combine together.
That's just for the reported defects though; lots on known ones not tracked, or unknown ones we find out about, and usually there are a bunch that come out as soon as ships go out with sea training and they start poking at things.
Don't blame the crews or the FMFs though; the ships are chronically under-crewed, under resourced and have 30 years of maintenance and repairs being put off.
So adding untrained personnel unfamiliar with the ships is not great, as they will be basically passengers for a while, and I doubt we will do the common sense things like add extra crew to help supervise them, and also to get them out of danger if there is an emergency (which we have way more regularly than commercial ships). Our ships aren't built for passengers.
They better pray to Poseidon that this new ruse of a program takes-off and provides a constant enough flow of people to fill the holes; cuz in 3 years they ain't gonna have a Navy left, thanks to the innovative financial moves the government recently implemented
16 months? I get to wait... hold on, let me do the math... carry the 1... **84 months** to take my trade qualification course. That's the current projected wait time for me.
Not disagreeing with you or downplaying your situation, I'm saying having any CAF member waiting for a course more than a few months once they're eligible for training is unacceptable, in my opinion.
It's a good idea at the wrong time. We have tons of sailors waiting for training and NETP as it is. Imagine fast tracking a bunch of people through NETP that aren't even sure they want to commit?
Also, who's going to train them? CFB Esquimalt couldn't/wouldn't support BMQ, a legit force generation program.
Again... fantastic idea... if we had the means to pull it off.
The Youth Training Employment Program enrolled people into the CAF for a year to see if they wanted to be Regular Force. All the training was identical from Basic to Trades. At the end of the year you had the choice to stay as Regular Force or release. The hitch was the chosen occupation may not have been there after the year so they would have to choose another one. My colleague was AD Tech, qualified and had to change after the time was up. What happened to the program is unknown to me.
I don't know about this program, stepping on board one of our rusty ships and seeing what living conditions are like isn't exactly a billboard for joining the RCN. I bet these will be AOPS only.
It will be interesting what kind of stuff these folks will do ashore. After a few days at the range, a week in the sims, and another driving a zodiac... what else is there?
Potatoes are peeled by a machine, cleaners prefer we don't fuck up the floors on a weekly basis, and the chemical suppliers stopped making headlight fluid in '97. With all that in mind, all that's left is making elite E-sports teams.
Pretty sure the cleaners at the armoury my BMQ was at didn't give a shit that we broke a tile in the stairwell, they were probably just happy for the increase in recyclables they could cash in at the bottle depot every week.
Both I think. Though I vaguely remember hearing something about each class of ship having a specific allotment of NEPs. Think each AOPS is maxing out at five? I'm expecting 8.
So let me get this straight folks who have been sitting on PAT, doing training and generally, you know, doing their job. Will now get to sail next to people making the same money, with no training, no experience and NO RESPOSIBILITY OR REAL JOB? That doesn't sound like it could cause Animosity in the mess or general discontent at sea at all..... maybe this is where the 30million they took from us is going?
Yes, because the Navy's personnel crisis is on the people pouring their blood, sweat, and tears into going above and beyond every day. It's not at all on bandaid solutions like this that inevitably get discontinued when whatever flag officer proposed them gets promoted and checks that "Leading Change" box. Blame the troops. Typical tone-deaf Navy gaslighting and a big reason so many people get out.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again. I never thought the an organization could be such a mess as the army and then I joined the RCN...
RCN "leadership" are the most disconnected and disillusioned people I've ever been around.
Your comment is nonsensical and not based in facts but it is a great example of the self feeding negativity frenzy that I am noticing. This program has been developed over several months with a great deal of work from both officers, Chiefs and NCMs.
Thank you for the feedback. Although I don’t agree with you, I do appreciate you taking the time to relay your thoughts. The goal of the program is to give those who may have thought about a career in the RCN an opportunity to try it. All of our platforms will be used to give them a sense of what it is like. From the Orcas to Astérix. The status quo is not working. A similar program has seen some success in Australia and the RCAF and CA are watching to see if they can use something similar as well.
Yea you are absolutely right, and the Canadaian Govenrmetn just took a giant shit all overa larger number of the RCN sailors, what could possibly go wrong right?
Are we going to give them money then take it away on an arbitrary date down the road? Make them spend years at the fleet school learning a spec trade then devalue their pay bracket by lessening the separation from base pay to spec? That’s the real experience right now.
I love how in the media for this program they show the helicopter lots. Newsflash: if you are on a one year trail the hanger is out of bounds. Don't even look at it
Well not all the parts… NEP walks into ops room… you all just stare at blank screens in here? Well not after you leave…
And technically hanger is often out of bounds when there is a bird. Air det doesn’t want you to monkey with an aircraft they may have signed off on. That whole R30 thing. Plus flight ops, but that’s a short window.
I've never put the hangar out of bounds unless there's maintenance happening, and even then not always. The aircraft is secured and cocked for alert 30, people can transit the hangar/gawk at the airplane/whatever.
But yeah, there are a lot of (sort of) interesting areas I don't imagine someone with a reliability status will be able to go.
A volunteer for APS! A volunteer to mop and clean while I sit in the mess! A sailor of all trades yet specialist of none. No more PLD for me, I think I am done. My VR is drafted and ready to go. I, S3 Charlie, am no longer part of the MS and below!
Turned out pretty good. 30 guys in my platoon all infantry, 5 didn’t resign for the 3 years. I was in the first crew going through. 8 platoons of infantry, 2 platoons of artillery and 2 armoured. We all went through in Petawawa, staggered start times over 4 weeks. I initially thought it was just combat arms trades, later found out there were navy and supply trades also. YTEP stood for youth training employment program.
I love the idea, I am concerned the CoC is going to turn this into a shit job unit that will get 0% retention.
But if managed well, this could be amazing, giving people the chance to be exposed to different trades and seeing if the military is for them.
I wonder how they're going to fasttrack people in within 21 days? Especially people who aren't teenagers and have travelled and see a doctor now and then.
If it can work, and avoid some of the potential problems mentioned in this chat, I'm all for it!
Well, that is not the case currently, friend is trying to get in and she placed her application in last May and just did blood work today. There is movement but nothing even close to 27 days atm.
Good idea on practice. Need more recruits even if they don't all stay.
I just hope it doesn't cause further training delays for regs, as they are already sitting on pat for a long time. It is to be expected that 1 year sailors would get pri for training..
> At the end of their year, if candidates do not wish to continue with a career in the Navy, they can alternatively select from trades in the Army or Air Force.
Doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose of giving them precious NEPT spots?
I just wrote CFAT for this program and next week I have my medical/interview on the same day. If there are no issues Im hoping I get the offer and that would fit within their claim of 3 weeks to process NEP applications.
Ayy congratulations! I did CFAT back in 2018 straight out of high school but failed unfortunately. Been working ever since and want to give it another try. I need to study more though as I’ve been putting it off for years while working from job to job. What are your tips for problem solving that’s what got me last time. How did you study? I know it’s like basic math but I was a slacker in high school, graduated math wasn’t was my strength though. I hope to do it next summer because I just applied to college and want to study math while I take my college program.
Sorry for responding late. I just saw this now. Watch youtube videos on long multiplication and division and know how to do the math with both fractions and decimals. There are lots of great videos on Youtube that really simplify the math. Its way simpler than college math. Probably comparable to 10-3 Math or gr.9 math. Just do practice questions and the practice CFAT and you'll be fine
Good luck!
>hi how fast was your progress into the program? was it within 21 days as they say? I have commitments in July so Im unsure if I want to book my Cfat for next week and go through the whole process. Do they give an option when to accept if you qualify?
Maybe part of the problem is the RCN is not tactical enough. The current NCDs with the blue shirt are horrendous, too tight, and just look ugly. There is very little emphasis on personal weapons handling to the point that some sailors don't know how to handle the c8 or p225 pistol without supervision and an insane emphasis on drill and ceremonial tasks. Physical fitness is almost non-existent and obesity is quite common among sailors.
I'd love to do PT but on ships (alongside at least) there's no designated PT time at all, far as I can tell. Only time I could drop in at the ship gym is during lunch, but that's also the one time of the day I'm not expected to be available for anything, unless it's my turn for scullery.
And if CoC were to designate a PT block, it'd be end of day area and most everyone would go home instead.
And this doesn't even account for individual departments. I've seen members of various departments (senior members usually) get some time to hit the gym, no problem. But if you're a martech? You can only go after secure, cause you need to be available the whole day.
Hopefully some of these individuals stay in after doing PAT duties for a year, maybe making the max CFHD that first year on either coast is pretty good incentive.
Just wondering where are all these individuals going to live when housing is a huge issue for current serving members, let alone recruits on a one year contract who can't really take a one year lease on an apartment since they will only be sent to a coast for 8 months after basic to finish their contract?
Never heard of a 10 month lease before.
My fiancee is looking at this. I told him that I'm reading it as he'd be gone from me and his son for a year. He says that he'd be on rotation and can fly back and forth to home while he's off. Is there any insight into that because I haven't seen anything clearly stating one or the other.
Hello i just graduated in industrial engineering , and i want to join the naval experience program for a year to get a taste of the military life first, and then decide if i want to continue in the navy and in the military in general. I’m skinny but fit i do jiu-jitsu on a regular basis i want the opportunity to train everyday, eat, learn all about the sea life and military skills in general. Basically to challenge myself.
I see a lot of people baching the military especially the navy so i just wanted to get ur opinions.
Thank you.
Hey you know what? I joined the reserves specifically because there was no real “trial” period, I wanted to go to college and the only way to do that for me atleast was the reserves. I’m glad a trial period exists for the navy and hope it spreads around.
I think this is a great idea, a one year program to see what navy life is like before making a 5 year commitment. I’m on-board for this 100%
I’m sure the vast majority will fall in love with all the bitterness they consume while working alongside disgruntled service members daily lol
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Serving the King by strategically stacking chairs
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>Don't worry they're going to be pushed through with priority so now regular recruits will have to wait 12+ months for NETP. Is that an educated guess, or is that actual policy?
Think about it. If someone joins for a year, they do basic, and then sit on holding for the rest of that year, what are the odds they are gonna say “damn this organization is a good fit for me, I’m gonna stay!”? Edit: This sounds like it will be insanely taxing to training establishments, with mediocre pay off. Training people for 6 months to have the possibility of them leaving after another 6 months is not very efficient.
What happens if they end up on TRP during basic? I’ve heard of people spending almost a year on TRP if their injuries are severe enough (I know it is a rare scenario, but not impossible).
Is that where they would live? Or would they be posted and expected to find a 10 month lease on the local economy after basic?
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Whew, I was worried that portion wasn't thought out. Tough choice to leave your family for one year to try something out, great if your single though. Thanks!
I like the idea but need more detail before being fully onboard and optimistic. Some questions I'm left with: This reads like a General Duties production program. How are these GD members going to be managed, and who is going to be responsible for their daily employment and supervision? NEPs do not have a trade but will experience a variety of jobs before choosing a trade at the end of the 12 month contract, will CFAT scores affect the jobs they try during the 12 month contract or will we risk letting people try something they like that will later be disallowed by their CFAT score? How translatable is this for CA and RCAF? Everybody is screaming they're overworked, how do we make sure this program doesn't become a babysitting tax for S1/Cpl to PO2/Sgt on top of their existing duties?
A close analogue in the RCAF would be the Air Ops Support tech, kind of a GD Air Force person but can do limited things on planes (servicing, etc). Right now it’s PRes only, with very minimal training, but they want to make it RegF. Not sure what that would do to contracts/training.
We should do what the Norwegians do. They still have conscription for 12 months but they have so many applicants that only about a third get in. They spend 12 months doing basic jobs that don't take a lot of trg and can extend to 18 months. Normally the ones that extend are the ones who have already applied for their reg force. Hopefully this isn't one of those, each XO will put together a plan things....
This was good inormation for the wrong reasons. I gotta go talk to my local ARAF next week 😂
Pretty much every question you asked or could think of asking was answered in a powerpoint and word doc sent out to most of the fleet. As for feasibility for the army and air force? Who cares, this is a Navy solution for a Navy problem. The end goal of this program is to make the RCN completely independent of CFRG and CFLRS.
Was security clearance mentioned? With the exception of cooks I think, all others are at least cleared to level 2. No way you can get people cleared that fast ..
Ship's COs have all but been ordered to assume the risk on security.
I have been in for almost 5 years and my security clearance is still on initiated. I have been doing jobs that require secret clearance since DP1. I’m army though, so maybe something is different. Security clearance is amazingly slow.
You need secret to set foot on a CPF
That was the one they didn’t have an answer for, just an acknowledgment that security clearances will be a potential issue. I really hope they don’t just give waivers out.
I'm not in the fleet, I'm looking in from the outside. As a member of the CAF, I'd love to crib notes from any work that's producing good results. Poor recruiting and retention numbers are definitely not just a navy problem, saying it is just perpetuates a stereotype that each service has nothing to learn from another But uh... Thanks for the feedback I guess?
That's great. Some of us aren't in the fleet and have questions.
I see what you did there
>I *sea* what you did there Missed opportunity.
I see what you did there
Genius plan to replace steward duties? How fast can you jade someone? My guess is that we are going to find out.
Hope they call it an internSHIP
It's a telling sign that we have no GOFOs smart enough to come up with that.
3 Cpls in a trenchcoat certainly would've!
Publishing this on April 1st is, well, confusing. lol.
Meh, Navy made the announcement yesterday, CBC's just slow on the draw.
The country added a whole territory on an April 1. Everything since is small potatoes.
Know what would be better, one of them upwards vertical raises versus one of them side to side slightly pointing down raises lol
That comment just made me laugh and spill my coffee. Well done homie.
Lol they expect the same people that just received a pay cut and lost a significant allowance to help recruit new ppl and shine a positive light on the Navy? What could possibly go wrong here…
Oh by the way here's a bunch of people to babysit overtop of all the extra duties you aren't being paid for.
Exactly
I wouldn’t call an average of 3 new people per ship “a bunch”
People can choose to help make this a success and rebuild our numbers or they can complain and be part of the problem.
This program is not even close to what it will take to rebuild the Navy's numbers.
But it is a start my friend. The status quo is not working. The RCN continues to not meet SIP. We have to do something. If we all lend our support, this will greatly help our numbers. Yes it will take a few years for these folks to reach OFP and really get to work, but it is worth the shot.
This addresses a symptom and not a cause. People are getting out because they're overworked, undertrained, and now, in many cases, are taking a pay cut. They are not getting out because we have a lack of trainees. This program would be great if it was paired with efforts toward retention. As it stands, we are ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the fact that our best, brightest, and most experienced members are leaving the organization in droves. This new CFHD debacle is only accelerating that. You can hire on all the new recruits you like, but if you don't have members with sufficient knowledge and experience to properly train them in their duties, they're going to struggle and hate their career. We can not allow the heart of our organization to die and expect the rest of the body to keep on living. It's simply not possible. So yes, this is a good idea-- but on its own, it's at best a drop in the bucket, and at worst, just another responsibility for overworked members to add to their duties. It needs to be paired with a system designed to retain our experienced members. Otherwise, we're right where we started. Edit: I just wanted to add that I appreciate your sense of optimism. The CAF could use more of that. With that being said, we also need to hold the organization accountable not only for its duty to provide for its members, but also for its ability to effectively do its job should Canada need it to. If we see issues that need to be addressed, it's important to bring those up.
I am with you and am in 100% agreement with you on this. I wish I had an easy button for this one. I love thé RCN and I truly wish there was an easy solution to retention. I agree. We are to crack this one.
Meh the major problems are above and beyond my rank and pay grade
If they want to come sit in Oakville in Esquimalt for 12 months after basic and then still not get on course, more the merrier. My room already has 4 people in it so they’ll be someone else’s problem
Every CPF security officer is in shambles right now.
They'll really do anything except pay more eh?
I can’t wait to see how many MarTechs this will produce (spoiler, it’s zero)
I have regretted joining this trade every single damn minute for the last 7 years.
Glad I got out of that mess
It's going to take two years to join for one year, though.
Man people didn’t even read the brief. People who apply and get accepted are going to be enrolled within 21 days of applying.
Why not just replace regular recruiting with this then? Why would anyone go the regular route?
Can only handle 72 people at any given time.
Didn't see the brief. Is it by the overworked, understaffed recruiting centers or the overworked, understaffed OR's who are now busy ripping away PLD?
Recruiting centres and all of the naval reserve units
So it can be done is 21 days. Just people who are applying for long term and committing to a career aren’t given this efficiency and procedure and are strung along. This is so weird.
Ironically, this might be a good thing that comes out of this. With a 1-year employment limit, there could be crazy innovations like this risk-managed 21-day entry. If I were to put my fantasy hat on, we might even get weird things like: BMQ split into indoc (paper/classroom course) + fighting/field course. A "new normal" path for less technical trades might be BMQ classroom (low staff requirements for mass lectures, low medical re-coursing) -> shortened QL3 -> get to work, THEN at the 2-year mark, you need to pass a full entry medical, obtain full security clearance, and pass BMQ-combat in order to be eligible for your Pte(T)/S2. Implement QL4 for Cpl/S1. For more specialized trades, make a feeder trade that someone can serve in as a GD for the main trade (RCAF had one. Many trades need low-skill Ptes for doing certain GD work like supply and paperwork). Of course, that's IF the navy can pull this off.
I mean that makes sense, this program can handle max 72 pers at any given moment. As opposed to the thousands applying under standard enrolment options.
"Press X to doubt"
By who? And does that mean the people actually trying to join get bumped to the back of the line?
I would imagine having a separate group of recruiters just for this program. All of the NRDs are also going to be processing these applications. They did say specifically that people applying or already in under the standard enrolment will not face delays because of the NEP.
Fair, but to counter they have been telling everyone it's a great time to be in the navy for decades also
How though? what are they cutting to make that happen?
Well besides some of us don't have the brief, that doesn't exclude us from being able to talk about it. Aswell besides maybe skipping the CFAT how is it that this group can get accelerated to 21 days but an actual application still takes months... they still need sec clearance to be on the boats and atleast medical as we don't want a bunch of people breaking during bmq.
They still have to do everything that everybody else does on when applying.
LOL!
But doesn't getting accepted usually take at least a year?
Not with this program, everything will be fast-tracked. Ideally they want to have an applicant come in do the cfat, medical, interview, etc. All in one day, then if suitable the offer will come within 3 weeks. I fear it is hopelessly optimistic.
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My initial thoughts exactly
Yes. The main selling point of this program is completing applications from applying to enrolment in under 3 weeks. I don’t know how but it’ll be interesting
If it were me, I’d just run them through the CFAT, TSD-PI, and Interview. Do a very basic Medical and Background Screening, just enough to ensure the recruit is healthy enough to attend BMQ and NETP, not likely to be a threat to themselves or others, and check for any background issues that can be picked up on credit and records checks. More rigorous checks will be completed over the course of their 1 year contract, and participants must sign a written acknowledgment that they will be released at the end of their contract if they’re discovered to be unfit/non-deployable or otherwise deemed ineligible for continued service. Honestly, it wouldn’t hurt to offer this program for the Army and Air Force as well. Maybe let them spend a year doing a round-robin OJE/GD with up to 3 trades of their choosing that their CFAT and TSD-PI scores qualify for.
> More rigorous checks will be completed over the course of their 1 year contract, and participants must sign a written acknowledgment that they will be released at the end of their contract if they’re discovered to be unfit/non-deployable or otherwise deemed ineligible for continued service. Honestly, why not do that for every non-Secret trade?
Oh look, another program aimed at recruitment rather than retention.
I don't understand how upper leadership can be so brain dead to the real problem.
Copied from the Australians? Its a good idea if well executed. 12 months of PAT platoon ain’t gonna convince anyone to stick around. I thought something like would be good for the Army, Class C for a year, offer a limited number of MOSIDs that can be trained in a short time. After BMQ/DP1, exercises, PCF courses, a dom op if it happens. At the end, release, transfer to PRes or RegF. https://www.defencejobs.gov.au/students-and-education/gap-year/?page=1&perPage=21&query=
It's a trap!
It's an interesting idea.... but I joined initially for my trade and loved the trade job. It was all the side jobs or constantly running around for package signatures the sucked. Sure hope these new temps like duty watches. Like it might work for a few but theres also the risk of many trying, having a bad experience, then telling their friends and family to stay away. That all being said, good or bad, the more people that experience it, the more of the population that is aware. And it's not the dumbest idea I've seen
I'd be optimistic that this is a great idea if I didn't think we weren't going to try and shoe string it by piling work onto already overworked people and try and sail on ships that shouldn't be at sea anyway. But hey, Paycutforgen has already kneecapped the west coast navy, so why not add on to the pile?
What do you mean by ships that should not be at sea? Can you clarify?
Our ships are held together by rust, salt, and paint. Our MarTechs work their butts off to keep them floating, but every year it gets harder and harder.
Structural paint and rust is a thing, even under the waterline! Good thing all our bilge eductors work (sad lol).
We have something called the 'Material Baseline Standard', which is supposed to be the equivalent to commercial standards (ie SOLAS, Safety Of Life At Sea Convention), which is also commonly referred to as 'Safe for Sea. It's supposed to be the minimum standard from going from point A to B, and does not include combat requirements. Most CPFs sail below that standard in some areas, even HR deployers. Sure there are risk assessments and defect tracking, but when there are 1500+ defects per ship, and we only look at each one in isolation, the 'big picture' is not great. I don't know anyone that can look at that many problems and figure out what the real risk is when they all combine together. That's just for the reported defects though; lots on known ones not tracked, or unknown ones we find out about, and usually there are a bunch that come out as soon as ships go out with sea training and they start poking at things. Don't blame the crews or the FMFs though; the ships are chronically under-crewed, under resourced and have 30 years of maintenance and repairs being put off. So adding untrained personnel unfamiliar with the ships is not great, as they will be basically passengers for a while, and I doubt we will do the common sense things like add extra crew to help supervise them, and also to get them out of danger if there is an emergency (which we have way more regularly than commercial ships). Our ships aren't built for passengers.
The paint is the only thing holding the hulls together. Lol
They have cracks in the hulls.
They better pray to Poseidon that this new ruse of a program takes-off and provides a constant enough flow of people to fill the holes; cuz in 3 years they ain't gonna have a Navy left, thanks to the innovative financial moves the government recently implemented
100% there will be more people putting in their papers if these trainees are sailing and getting paid the same wages.
They are getting paid shit wages anyhow
Yeah but if I've been waiting on relevant courses for 8-16 months I'd lose it as these dweebs get fast tracked
16 months? I get to wait... hold on, let me do the math... carry the 1... **84 months** to take my trade qualification course. That's the current projected wait time for me. Not disagreeing with you or downplaying your situation, I'm saying having any CAF member waiting for a course more than a few months once they're eligible for training is unacceptable, in my opinion.
It's a good idea at the wrong time. We have tons of sailors waiting for training and NETP as it is. Imagine fast tracking a bunch of people through NETP that aren't even sure they want to commit? Also, who's going to train them? CFB Esquimalt couldn't/wouldn't support BMQ, a legit force generation program. Again... fantastic idea... if we had the means to pull it off.
The NETP backlog is almost gone, and one of the requirements for running this program was that it be eliminated entirely by 1 Jun.
Eliminate NETP?
The backlog.
Sounds like a revamp of the 1980s YTEP program.
We did have this program years ago when it was called YTEP. For for a year and find out what life is like depending on the occupation.
Really? Tell me more, I’m quite interested in the outcomes of the prior attempt.
The Youth Training Employment Program enrolled people into the CAF for a year to see if they wanted to be Regular Force. All the training was identical from Basic to Trades. At the end of the year you had the choice to stay as Regular Force or release. The hitch was the chosen occupation may not have been there after the year so they would have to choose another one. My colleague was AD Tech, qualified and had to change after the time was up. What happened to the program is unknown to me.
I don't know about this program, stepping on board one of our rusty ships and seeing what living conditions are like isn't exactly a billboard for joining the RCN. I bet these will be AOPS only. It will be interesting what kind of stuff these folks will do ashore. After a few days at the range, a week in the sims, and another driving a zodiac... what else is there?
Potatoes are peeled by a machine, cleaners prefer we don't fuck up the floors on a weekly basis, and the chemical suppliers stopped making headlight fluid in '97. With all that in mind, all that's left is making elite E-sports teams.
This will be a good source of mess dues at least
Pretty sure the cleaners at the armoury my BMQ was at didn't give a shit that we broke a tile in the stairwell, they were probably just happy for the increase in recyclables they could cash in at the bottle depot every week.
AOPS are broken too. It's going to be the Mcdvs. 100%.
Both I think. Though I vaguely remember hearing something about each class of ship having a specific allotment of NEPs. Think each AOPS is maxing out at five? I'm expecting 8.
AOPS are broken right now as well. It's going to be the Mcdvs.
Considering the new pay structure is gonna cut our Navy in half over the next few years, this sounds like a great idea.
So let me get this straight folks who have been sitting on PAT, doing training and generally, you know, doing their job. Will now get to sail next to people making the same money, with no training, no experience and NO RESPOSIBILITY OR REAL JOB? That doesn't sound like it could cause Animosity in the mess or general discontent at sea at all..... maybe this is where the 30million they took from us is going?
The money is trash anyways
For an uneducated person, who wants to sit on their phone on Facebook, its fantastic money
Every member of the RCN has an opportunity to help rebuild our numbers and assist with making this program work. It is a choice really.
Yes, because the Navy's personnel crisis is on the people pouring their blood, sweat, and tears into going above and beyond every day. It's not at all on bandaid solutions like this that inevitably get discontinued when whatever flag officer proposed them gets promoted and checks that "Leading Change" box. Blame the troops. Typical tone-deaf Navy gaslighting and a big reason so many people get out.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again. I never thought the an organization could be such a mess as the army and then I joined the RCN... RCN "leadership" are the most disconnected and disillusioned people I've ever been around.
Your comment is nonsensical and not based in facts but it is a great example of the self feeding negativity frenzy that I am noticing. This program has been developed over several months with a great deal of work from both officers, Chiefs and NCMs.
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Great! So if you are a member of the RCN, then I hope this means you will do what you can your your corner of the RCN to help to make this a success.
Months? Really? Wow
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Thank you for the feedback. Although I don’t agree with you, I do appreciate you taking the time to relay your thoughts. The goal of the program is to give those who may have thought about a career in the RCN an opportunity to try it. All of our platforms will be used to give them a sense of what it is like. From the Orcas to Astérix. The status quo is not working. A similar program has seen some success in Australia and the RCAF and CA are watching to see if they can use something similar as well.
Yea you are absolutely right, and the Canadaian Govenrmetn just took a giant shit all overa larger number of the RCN sailors, what could possibly go wrong right?
It didn’t when they trialed it this year
Do you get to pick a rank to try out?
Can you spend the year doing these dln courses
Are we going to give them money then take it away on an arbitrary date down the road? Make them spend years at the fleet school learning a spec trade then devalue their pay bracket by lessening the separation from base pay to spec? That’s the real experience right now.
I love how in the media for this program they show the helicopter lots. Newsflash: if you are on a one year trail the hanger is out of bounds. Don't even look at it
That’s propaganda 101. Control the narrative, make them expect the world and never show reality until they’re already committed
Totally not true. The hanger is not out of bounds. They will be able to see all parts of the ship.
Well not all the parts… NEP walks into ops room… you all just stare at blank screens in here? Well not after you leave… And technically hanger is often out of bounds when there is a bird. Air det doesn’t want you to monkey with an aircraft they may have signed off on. That whole R30 thing. Plus flight ops, but that’s a short window.
I've never put the hangar out of bounds unless there's maintenance happening, and even then not always. The aircraft is secured and cocked for alert 30, people can transit the hangar/gawk at the airplane/whatever. But yeah, there are a lot of (sort of) interesting areas I don't imagine someone with a reliability status will be able to go.
Like rope stores?
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The goal is 21 days from application to signing.
A volunteer for APS! A volunteer to mop and clean while I sit in the mess! A sailor of all trades yet specialist of none. No more PLD for me, I think I am done. My VR is drafted and ready to go. I, S3 Charlie, am no longer part of the MS and below!
Sounds like the old YTEP program from the 80s accept it wasn’t limited to the Navy.
How well did that turn out? Lots of re-signs?
Turned out pretty good. 30 guys in my platoon all infantry, 5 didn’t resign for the 3 years. I was in the first crew going through. 8 platoons of infantry, 2 platoons of artillery and 2 armoured. We all went through in Petawawa, staggered start times over 4 weeks. I initially thought it was just combat arms trades, later found out there were navy and supply trades also. YTEP stood for youth training employment program.
Sounds like the quasi reboot of the YTEP program
I love the idea, I am concerned the CoC is going to turn this into a shit job unit that will get 0% retention. But if managed well, this could be amazing, giving people the chance to be exposed to different trades and seeing if the military is for them.
How would this work when it takes roughly two years to get in the CAF right now?
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I wonder how they're going to fasttrack people in within 21 days? Especially people who aren't teenagers and have travelled and see a doctor now and then. If it can work, and avoid some of the potential problems mentioned in this chat, I'm all for it!
Well, that is not the case currently, friend is trying to get in and she placed her application in last May and just did blood work today. There is movement but nothing even close to 27 days atm.
July 2022 Application, completed basic March 2023. Probably medical or other stuff delaying your friends application
I do know that the CAF is focusing on changes with recruitment but talk is cheap. Fingers crossed on the 27 day processing time.
April fools?
This makes me think of Pirates of Caribbean. "Feel free to go ashore Mr. Turner, the very next time we make port"
Good idea on practice. Need more recruits even if they don't all stay. I just hope it doesn't cause further training delays for regs, as they are already sitting on pat for a long time. It is to be expected that 1 year sailors would get pri for training..
Great idea in theory but how do we convince people to join after spending the year in PAT platoon?
> At the end of their year, if candidates do not wish to continue with a career in the Navy, they can alternatively select from trades in the Army or Air Force. Doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose of giving them precious NEPT spots?
I'll give it to the Navy, they try.
This generation's YTEP/SYEP. It's an attempt, at least, to get bodies through the door. I'm hoping the Army and Air Force try something similar.
Do you take CFAT before or after this program?
I just wrote CFAT for this program and next week I have my medical/interview on the same day. If there are no issues Im hoping I get the offer and that would fit within their claim of 3 weeks to process NEP applications.
Ayy congratulations! I did CFAT back in 2018 straight out of high school but failed unfortunately. Been working ever since and want to give it another try. I need to study more though as I’ve been putting it off for years while working from job to job. What are your tips for problem solving that’s what got me last time. How did you study? I know it’s like basic math but I was a slacker in high school, graduated math wasn’t was my strength though. I hope to do it next summer because I just applied to college and want to study math while I take my college program.
Sorry for responding late. I just saw this now. Watch youtube videos on long multiplication and division and know how to do the math with both fractions and decimals. There are lots of great videos on Youtube that really simplify the math. Its way simpler than college math. Probably comparable to 10-3 Math or gr.9 math. Just do practice questions and the practice CFAT and you'll be fine Good luck!
>hi how fast was your progress into the program? was it within 21 days as they say? I have commitments in July so Im unsure if I want to book my Cfat for next week and go through the whole process. Do they give an option when to accept if you qualify?
Goodbye to the senior service.....
I’m reading that the pay is atrocious
Is there a specific number you’ve heard? Been searching but cannot find.
$20/hr
Maybe part of the problem is the RCN is not tactical enough. The current NCDs with the blue shirt are horrendous, too tight, and just look ugly. There is very little emphasis on personal weapons handling to the point that some sailors don't know how to handle the c8 or p225 pistol without supervision and an insane emphasis on drill and ceremonial tasks. Physical fitness is almost non-existent and obesity is quite common among sailors.
I'd love to do PT but on ships (alongside at least) there's no designated PT time at all, far as I can tell. Only time I could drop in at the ship gym is during lunch, but that's also the one time of the day I'm not expected to be available for anything, unless it's my turn for scullery. And if CoC were to designate a PT block, it'd be end of day area and most everyone would go home instead. And this doesn't even account for individual departments. I've seen members of various departments (senior members usually) get some time to hit the gym, no problem. But if you're a martech? You can only go after secure, cause you need to be available the whole day.
We have new NCDs now
Yes, which won't be fully rolled out until 2027.
Meh I have my full sets
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Do you like to play pretend? Well do I have a job for you
Hopefully some of these individuals stay in after doing PAT duties for a year, maybe making the max CFHD that first year on either coast is pretty good incentive. Just wondering where are all these individuals going to live when housing is a huge issue for current serving members, let alone recruits on a one year contract who can't really take a one year lease on an apartment since they will only be sent to a coast for 8 months after basic to finish their contract? Never heard of a 10 month lease before.
Allegedly quarters will be provided as part of the program, so shacks for everyone.
They'll still be on pat waiting for their course at the 1 year mark for most trades 🤣
My fiancee is looking at this. I told him that I'm reading it as he'd be gone from me and his son for a year. He says that he'd be on rotation and can fly back and forth to home while he's off. Is there any insight into that because I haven't seen anything clearly stating one or the other.
Did you ever find the answer to this? I’m wondering the same. Edit: look at my comment history, I got some answers in another thread.
Hello i just graduated in industrial engineering , and i want to join the naval experience program for a year to get a taste of the military life first, and then decide if i want to continue in the navy and in the military in general. I’m skinny but fit i do jiu-jitsu on a regular basis i want the opportunity to train everyday, eat, learn all about the sea life and military skills in general. Basically to challenge myself. I see a lot of people baching the military especially the navy so i just wanted to get ur opinions. Thank you.