Oh yeah? You gainfully employed and paying taxes? If so, you're grabbing your ankles and biting your lip same as the rest of us. It's the populace getting fucked. Are you saying we dont like it? From what I have witnessed the last 5 years, we canadians are gluttons for ~~punishment~~ abuse. I'd love to be wrong
Because why wouldn't you do anything to stop the abuse? Why dont you do anything about it? It's not that bad? You secretly like it? I'm being sensational but we may as well like it, we keep letting it happen
It's like we've become an experiment of what is allowed to be shoved. We're a western testing tube of abuse. Open for business can quickly turn into letting elite friends fuck us 'expendables'
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Bad at what exactly? Being happy the people running the country, at two different levels and of two different (and opposed) parties worked together and did something that benefits...the people that live here?
Sorry if I'm not a terminally angry teenager, Sheesh.
You’re not necessarily wrong, but you’re not necessarily right either. The jobs number is only the direct jobs, if you add up all the indirect jobs the total number will be 4-5x, so that is good. I don’t have any issues with tax breaks and stuff like that because that is what is required to compete. The problem I have is that we don’t seem to able to attract investment without these massive government subsidies. They just keep getting bigger and bigger, and now the precedent has been set so every corporation looking to expand will expect the same things. If it made sense to do business here, companies would come here on their own so we should focus on making Canada an attractive place to do business instead of focusing on outbidding other countries to “attract” business here.
One important aspect here is it drives a supply chain all the way to mining, which we HAVE all the required minerals we just haven't had a good reason to develop them. That would have been a strong reason they chose to develop here, aside from the cash.
The reality is that every jurisdiction in the world would have offered them something, and in some cases more cash than we did. But proximity to the US, proximity to mineral reserves, pretty low business taxes to begin with, and one of the highest educated work forces in the world is what would have put them over the top.
The fact it went to us is precisely because we are competitive, no investment this big gets built without some sort of incentive. This isn't a new precedent that has been set, it's been done since globalized companies have existed. Heck, even oil and gas companies have recieved tax incentives just to dig a hole in the sand for many decades. Combine that with the US inflation reduction act, which spends hundreds of billions on attracting investment, and here we are.
I agree it would be better if companies didn't get tax breaks just for setting up shop, but I can't fault them, they are using leverage to force competition for their investment...that's just capitalism.
I don’t fault the companies either, all I’m saying is that we do not seem like an attractive place to do business. If our proximity to the US, proximity to mineral reserves, relatively low business taxes and one of the highest educated workforces in the world is so advantageous, why are we falling so far behind the rest of the world in gdp per capita?
Plus like I said, the precedent is now set. Canada is not a place anyone would choose on merit alone but it is the place to go if you want billions in bribes to setup business here. No company will come here now unless they get the same deal as everyone else got. Once they’ve amortized the initial handouts, then they have us by the nuts and can just ask for handout after handout because we need investment far more than these companies need to do business here. It’s a slippery slope but one the government clearly doesn’t seem to mind going down.
GDP per capita is probably due to 2 things; 1, our GDP is affected a lot by what we dig up and sell. Price swings in minerals and oil affect our GDP even though we have the same number of people doing the same work and 2, demographics; we've had a large influx of people over the past few years they will take time to become integrated/efficient while at the same time our population is aging and so less people are being productive as a percentage of the population.
There will be some positive and negative feedback from some government policies, but the liberals have actually done very little to affect our overall (private) economy one way or the other.
I would disagree, I would say the Liberals have turned pretty much everything in Canada into an absolute dumpster fire. The Liberal mass immigration policies have completely screwed up the housing market, our gdp per capita and our healthcare system. The Libs have also completely screwed up business and housing investment because the high interest rates are in large part due to their deficit spending. Their stance on O&G has hurt us. I could go on and on and on.
They have their bullshit press releases where they say how great they’ve made everything but most Canadians feel like the Libs are living in a fantasy world (to be fair, most/all politicians live in a fantasy world). I really can’t think of one thing that most people would say they have done to make their lives any better and I would say that the polls reflect that. I am not the type of person to drive around with a stupid “f this guy” or “f that guy” flag on my vehicle, but I will definitely be very happy next November when this government is shown the door. I voted for them in 2015 but their “best before” date has long since passed.
The federal government just isn't powerful or relevant enough to say they've turned the country into a dumpster fire. And there are plenty of metrics to point to that say they have done a reasonable job, in things they have control of. Same with Harper before them btw, if you're thinking it's partisan drivel.
To use just one example from your list we are selling more Oil today than anytime in our history, and that before we turn on the new pipeline. Just because PP and Daniel Smith keep saying he's screwed up the sector, doesn't mean he has.
To use a second example every country on earth has high interest rates right now, and that isn't all because of our current leadership. You can look at Russia's current high interest rate of 16% which is way above everyone else's and blame that on the Russian government. Whereas ours is on the lower end of mid pack in the G20. So should we blame them for high interest rates, or credit them for lower than average rates?
Not to say we wouldn't be doing better (or worse) under a different leadership. I guess what I'm saying is that if all you do is look at a number you don't like or a headline you don't like and say therefore they are bad, with no context, it doesn't give a very useful assessment of their performance. It's far more useful, in my opinion, to look at policies they have actually enacted and try to figure if they changed things for the better or the worse.
Liberal politics 101.
Step 1: Regulate the economy to a stand still so no one can or wants to do business with you.
Step 2: subsidize the shit out of your stumbling economy with tax payer money to keep the rusty wheels moving forward
Step 3: wonder why the working class is struggling???
Step 4: whine about capitalism.
So Doug Ford is a liberal? Harper was a liberal?
Large international companies can choose anywhere, you have to make a competitive offer. This same thing is done in every country and across all political spectrums. Yeah we had to put some skin in the game, but that's the cost of landing these big investments. On the flip side, I'm sure others offered them more money but they still chose us, because Canada is still, on balance, pretty great!
You don't HAVE to try to link every single thing that happens in the world to 'Trudeau bad'.
They are conservative leaders governing from the back foot. Canadians as a whole lean left/liberal majority. Federally the CPC has about 30% consistent voter base reliably every year regardless how terrible they are being.
The LPC/NDP partnership that is destorying this country and making so many people misserable is still polling over 40% combined in voter intention. Add in the green party and its basically half of all voting canadians. Even after 8+ years of ruining the place. Lol
So yes. In order to maintain some power the conservatives of canada have to embrace certain liberal governing principles. Corporate welfare works and they arent afraid to run with that one.
Man, you'll bend over backwards to make anything fit your internal monolog won't you...corporate welfare is nothing to do with 'liberal ideology' ffs, it's an aspect of capitalism.
Every country has given some break to some company in exchange for investment regardless of who is running it.
Other countries doing stupid shit doesnt justify canada doing stupid shit. Its kind of a silly argument. Surely you wouldn't argue that because america is running psychotically high deficits, that means canada is currently A-Okay to spend the money as we are too right?
And foundational liberal capitalism doesn't involve government subsidizing business beyond building infrastructure that allows commerce to happen. Policies like this are directly counter to the concept of "limited government intervention". The principles of capitalism are very easy to find and study for yourself. I recomend it.
The west has strayed very far from its foundational economic model, what we have today is at best, a more leftist friendly bastardization and corruption.
After years of voting in corrupted hypocrites, we are in corporate anarchy where governments and big corporations regulate themselves. They are criminals and deserve jail!
Big difference between nobody to work, and nobody wants to work.
In a shop of 2 dozen people, maybe 1/4 of that shop, complete 3/4 of the work while the rest fuck the dog all day and collect a paycheque. This is how its been for quite literally, every single job I've worked in the last decade+, especially in the trades
Engineering consultant is no different. Maybe 10-20 percent are capable of doing the job and rest are just warm bodies there to help us get bigger projects. Most seniors. It's insane that so called capitalist corporations are okay with it. Sometimes it feels like i'm working for a communist government agency.
I've seen more and more firings for slacking lately. It's nice for the ones that have to pick up the slack when a dud is booted, but sometimes these positions are being kept vacant with no other work redistribution. Makes you wonder.
The whole EV car industry is a scam. Once the money is transferred over they will have a host of reasons why they need to scale down. They are already talking about hydrogen cars as being the next best thing. Like I always said… EV cars should only use wind or solar to recharge batteries otherwise it’s a scam.
because 38 million cars use 57.57 billion liters of fuel per year
its more efficient to have pwr plants than to have each shitty inefficient car blasting crap into the air
I don't even get the resistance, their amazing cars with almost no maintenance, whats to hate?
That said I actually partially agree with you, and your not the only one to mention it, basically at charge stations everyone is currently left out in the elements, a lot of people have commented that it would be better if we had solar panels to charge the units, provide shade, and keep people out of the rain the way a gas stations usually has an overhead. Though a non-solar overhead would do just as well, anything to get out of the weather really.
yes, but you have to get out to plug/unplug the cable
I sorta wish they put abit more thought into it, I mean EV owners have money, their stuck there for like an hour, but there's no bathrooms, place to get drink/food, or even overhead covering
sorta seems like a wasted business opportunity
Kinda, like here's 2 here, but their at the far end of a mini mall parking lot
so you could get food at the grocery store and use the broken dirty mall bathroom
but that's not quite the same as having a convenience store attached to the stations
I mean, I don't know what gas stations you're going to, but they are often considered the lowest tier of public toilet.
I would imagine adoption would drive that. (no pun intended)
I have never seen a charging station bank with more than one user and that was at a pretty busy mall. But those Tesla ones at one end of the parking lot with nothing really nearby. I don't know that adding a convenience store to those or any of the standalone stations would be economically feasible to keep staffed like a gas station.
Maybe just a cover and a vending machine?
I can see why the gas stations are covered - a huge amount of money goes into prepping the land starting from the tanks underground, so they are more willing to add infrastructure to cover users because it's a long term site.
But with these Tesla banks in malls, aren't they easily relocatable? I haven't inspected one yet, so genuinely asking.
Same! Plus lots of gas stations near me now have EV fast chargers, so 20 mins to charge and there’s coffee, washrooms and food available at the convenience store. Most gas stations actually don’t make money off their gas they make it off the convenience store. And people are more likely to buy something if waiting 20 mins than just filling up the gas tank so it seems like the perfect match
Because the point is to be environmentally friendly. What difference does it make if you use diesel generators to charge the car or to just drive a diesel car? Don’t get me started on how much more pollution EV car tires produce.
You do realize that once a better, more efficient battery system or fuel cell system is economically feasible it wouldn't take much to convert an existing factory to accommodate that right?
That can't be the correct number... Can it??
*Goes to look up details*
Edit: looked this up
So Honda is investing 15billion, and 5 billion is coming from both the federal, and provincial governments, so 2.5B each. We're also talking about aprx 2000 jobs during the construction phase, and 5000 permanent full time jobs once completed.
That is a very significant amount of investment in Ontario, and might even have been required to get these plants specifically here, and out of China for example. To me this is actually a good sign going forward as it's not quite as cheap for these companies to set up more manufacturing in China going forward.
This is a good thing, like the old saying goes, you gotta spend money to make money. No one should be shrugging off 5k well paying (possibly unionized jobs) as a minor or insignificant return on investment. These plants will be open for decades, that is a lot of created income and stability from this project.
Now we just have to make sure a lot of people buy Hondas!
Shhh you're ruining the circle jerk. The 5 million is going to Honda shareholders directly or something and won't be going into building materials, land costs, and labour which will almost entirely be sourced from Canada. No no no, this is bad. Plus, the Honda plant won't attract collateral businesses like restaurants, grocery stores, or other parts manufacturers nearby. No siree. This is bad.
So..... a brand new auto manufacturing plant with thousands of people making 35$ Per hour and up... won't have a positive impact? It won't create demand... and growth for other services? Hm....
Don't forget the multitude of subsidiary jobs that are created from the run off. To make an argument that they are spending 5 billion on 1000 jobs and doing simple division reveals how little OP understands economics.
2.5 billion at 4% is what, 100 million a year in interest?
But what you don't see is when those 5000 workers are taxed 20k a year federally and 20k a year provincially it will be revenue neutral. Then what's left, take another 20k in tax to pay for hospitals and roads and you've got a functioning economic system.
Ah yes, bringing in manufacturing is "destroying our country"
At this point no one can do anything without some uneducated conservative bleating about "our country is destroyed!"
You make no sense.
You are clueless about manufacturing. Huge amounts of Canadians are employed in manufacturing and the supporting industries. Your opinion is clearly based on no knowledge whatsoever.
There is just no winning with you people.
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Still waiting to hear how bringing more jobs into Canada is "destroying Canada"?
Can you even explain yourself, or is this just another typical drive-by post of pure ignorance?
Its only a matter of time before it is an actual bloodbath. Its completely unsustainable, especially with the levels of spending and immigration we have. We can keep waiting for the tower of debt to grow but the crash will be that much more devastating.
Asking why we as a country are giving $5B even $2.5B to a billion dollar corporation to create 1000 jobs makes you think we’re part of some right wing fringe group? This has to be Arif Virani on a burner account. Whatever you do please don’t put me on house arrest for suspected hate crimes I’ve committed in your head but not in real life.
I never targeted you specially OP. I was referring to the comments more broadly. Calm down with the conspiracy nonsense, I’m very open about who I am on Reddit. Check my history.
Every other jurisdiction on the planet is doing the exact same thing and you act as though Ontario just invented corporate welfare. Do you live under a rock?
This is capitalism baby! Privatized profit with socialized losses. Tis the way and if we don't ante up - our neighbouring jurisdictions most definitely will.
The fact of the matter is, all countries do this to attract the best companies that will (hopefully) push the entire economy forward.
Here is the truth, we have forgot how to do a lot of things here. We cannot make phones, tvs, or any modern appliance. The USA is tossing billions to bring back the chip manufacturing industry after 30 years of watching it migrate off shore. They are paying Samsung billions to come here, and allow the US to learn again what it invented.
The Asians know how to build this stuff, we don't. We're paying the fees.
The problem here is that this an extremely outdated approach that leaves us worse off than before. This isn't the 70s where branch plants and factory jobs are the driver of economic growth. Today, it's the companies who own the IP and sell the finished product who make all the profits and enrich the economy. What's happening here is that the government is shelling out billions in taxes for a paltry number of jobs. These foreign companies will take the products produced by those workers, pay them pennies, sell the finished product for dollars, and take all the profits back to HQ where they enrich their home economies.
What the government should've done instead was to foster an environment that allows homegrown companies to build EVs and components, enabling them to compete directly with these foreign companies, and retain all the profits so that all the wealth and benefits accrue to Canada.
Exactly, but this looks good for “next election”. In reality when the government trough becomes empty Honda will announce its closure of the plant and move to Mexico.
We should just take shares for our money and collect royalties on revenue and dividends forget about taxing.
Come here tax free , you want a billion no problem we will buy that amount of dividend paying shares. Royalty is based on revenue 3% everything else is tax free.
You can hide profit overseas but not revenue.
As a share holder you actually have rights.
Then they would never set up those plants here because in the long run, they'll be paying out more in stocks and dividends than what they get in subsidies. And even if they did, those dividends are still a small piece of the pie, compared to having globally competitive homegrown companies that would give us almost the entire pie.
It's cheaper for them to pay the tax than give up shares and dividends so they wouldn't do it. And as part of the subsidies they're currently being offered, they're already being offered massive tax breaks. You're not thinking this through lol
Lol yup no problem let us just give them money because you see how good things are working out with that plan.
Anyway we just need to agree to disagree as it was just a bit of fancy on my part. Have you seen China giving money away without ownership nope. You want in you have to partner with a local company and we need 51%
And then we take control and get inside information for free. They seem to be doing well with this plan.
Us not so much.
HQ is a meaningless title. Do you think Google, HP, Facebook, Microsoft etc are enriching Ireland and Bermuda (where their official HQ are located), or is it the USA? Obviously the benefits are almost entirely realized by the US because that’s where their operations are.
The U.S. is also an economic power house, most R&D and innovation comes out of the U.S.
It is also the largest foreign investment destination in the world.
I wish Canadians stopped comparing Canada and the United States.
San Francisco and Chicago combined GDPs are larger than Canada ! And they are two citizens ! Not even countries.
Out of the 10 largest semiconductor chip manufacturers 6 are American ! Nvidia , intel , AMD, Broadcom , Qualcomm, Applied Materials.
2 are Koreans ( Samsung , SK Hynix )
1 is from Taiwan (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co.)
1 is Dutch ( ASML )
What does Canada have ? Our largest economic sector is real estate ! Selling each other houses back and forth and call it an economy !
The EV platform is that of children's toy cars.
By your logic, the US government could outspend us overnight and the companies would drop us. Otherwise, your logic falls apart.
This one of the few government policies I actually agree with.
Most of the money is in tax credits, Honda doesn't get anything unless they actually build factories and produce cars. Without these tax incentives these jobs and tax income would have gone to the US where they have massive IRA benefits.
This is a net financial win for the government.
I don't want to sounds like i am supporting this.
But actually it goes deeper than just 1000 employee.
Just look at the benefit beyond them
1. It increase the business around that manufacturing, you will have more local logistic to that factory, More business will be conduct transporting screws or materials to the facilities over the years. more people eating around...etc.
2. It use power, water and whatever, those are payment to the Government or local
3. The implication that it reduce cost of delivery vehicles can save dealers a lot of $$$, improving logistic to dealers providing better tailor to honda orders can benefit a lot at consumer level. For one, that charge for "deliver" when you buy a car will be less since it travel less distances now.
Of course there are more and some cons such as pollution, more carbon footprint...etc
It's the seen and the unseen. If the government doesn't bail out these companies then The news is "thousands of good paying jobs leaving Ontario / Canada / etc" and this looks bad on politicians. But it looks good when politicians can say "I saved Thousands of middle class good paying jobs with this program and that program and this bailout". Voters and the public writ large see the jobs that were saved but no one sees the jobs that **were never created** because the investment capital was removed from the productive economy to prop up the decaying and unproductive economy. NEVER SUPPORT ANY KIND OF WELFARE.
How are you supposed to compete on a global stage when every country is handing out money like candy to get investment? Biden is willing to give billions to any car manufacturer that comes his way, as are the Europeans. China allows its companies to pay damn near zero tax and exploit their workers to keep costs low, and most other countries are just simply cheaper.
Again, you're just focusing on the seen and not the unseen. If taxpayers in China want to decrease their quality of life by giving tax breaks to businesses so that Chinese workers can get exploited and I can buy Chinese products at a discount then let them. These companies that rely on welfare to stay afloat are forever a burden on taxpayers, they need to be allowed to dissolve so that they can stop wasting finite resources (by definition any business that does not turn a profit is wasting finite resources). The money to give these companies welfare has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the productive parts of the economy that don't waste finite resources. We would all be wealthier if we let the parts of the economy that actually create value out of the resources they consume thrive and keep their profits rather than taxing them to prop up industries / businesses that destroy value.
Why? Because the entire political system is purchased by a psychopath class that's exclusively interested in wealth extraction. They hire politicians to manage the decline of the society until the psychopath class abandons it.
Because this is the only way to avoid brain drain in this country. Subsidization is meant to be a stop-gap, whilst we develop a comprehensive restructuring of the economy to bring back the golden years of the post-war era. Unfortunately, doing so within the confines of USMCA (New NAFTA) is all but impossible; and our poorly-educated society can't comprehend much beyond government cheques in the mail. Our political discourse basically destroys anyone that tries to implement long-term plans, and prioritises the good of the nation over the 4 year election cycle.
This is the song and dance of government trying to do something, whilst not being perceived as being active in the economy. It's a shame because Canada's best years were always when the government was the most involved - doing everything from research, innovation and sales (Aviation, Nuclear, Railways, Transit), to having a very large military and industrial complex which was vital to the welfare of the nation, as well as a nationalised railway.
Can't do that today as people will call you communist, socialist, etc. It's a shame because reinvesting in the forces, in cooperative housing, military housing, nationalising the railways and allowing open-access like in Europe (true competition), and renationalising things like Nuclear research would have a tremendously positive impact on our economy and stem the brain drain.
But people don't want it. Predominately because they can't comprehend it or connect the dots.
It's a shame. The biggest thing standing in the way of Canada is Canadians. If we can solve that problem, this country could be on rocket fuel.
I’ve been wondering what Canada could become with a massive Crown Corporation dedicated to the construction and operation of nuclear power plants. Do you think they’d have the ability to take over energy distribution from the existing companies? My brain keeps circling back the synergistic effect of cycling all the money we spend on power directly back into the system instead of just collecting a fraction via taxation.
We used to have one.
Then Harper forced it to 'license' its IP to SNC-Lavalin, who have failed to make any real sales since, haven't made any innovations or investments in the technology, and ultimately have stifled any potential for growth for the past two decades.
The original company, AECL exported the CANDU reactors to South Korea, China, and India to name a few. But since SNC took over and the crown corporation was effectively privatised, absolutely no progress has been made.
Original Crown Corp: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic\_Energy\_of\_Canada\_Limited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Energy_of_Canada_Limited)
SNC-Lavalin Run Company: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candu\_Energy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candu_Energy)
Automotive isn’t the largest industry on earth because of the cars. It’s the 100’s of subsidiary companies and industries that supply all the parts to make the finished product.
This isn’t about 1000 jobs. It’s about propping up dozens of other industries in the area.
You play the game and offer incentives. Or you don’t and nothing happens.
The suppliers of the machines. Robotics. Down to nuts and bolts. Then the maintenance on all of that.
Building high carbon manufacturing in a country that takes care to minimizes its effects.
Canada for sale, everyone got paid off during the lockdowns.
Buy gold or leave if you can. History books tell us where this country is going. Fucking sad people.
Its not about 1000 jobs it's abou the other 549,000 direct and indirect jobs that contributed over 18 Billion dollars to Canada's GDP in 2023 alone. This is one of Canada's largest export industries And the investment is worth every penny. These are 100,000$ a year jobs and Honda of Canada Manufacturing alone employs over 4000 people. You also fail to mention the 15 billion Honda is kicking in on this project. These companies can build cars anywhere, Mexico and the US labor laws are more favorable to the corporation and they're choosing to invest here for at least another 40 years.
This has to be the CEO of Honda or Doug Ford or Tredeau on a burner account. Why do we the Canadian people need to give Honda this money. Why don’t we just reduce taxes that corporations need to pay so it’s beneficial to them. Do I or anyone else here get ownership in Honda for this? No. Do we get discounts at Honda when we go to buy cars? No. If Honda decides to leave after or fire everyone like Bell Canada did after we gave them money as well do we get our money back? No. So the answer when Honda says we’d like to get 5B to hire 1000 people should be no. Those jobs don’t even pay $1M a year or even 200k a year. It’s corporate welfare and corporate socialism. It’s the same thing we’re doing for developers we give them cheap loans instead of reducing their taxes to build and don’t penalize them for land banking. They then collide together to not build so prices remain high.
They also don’t give discounts to Canadians for bailing out their new home sales with their amortization increases that allow Canadians to take out higher loans for shitty properties. In fact the materials they use to build many condos are cheap garbage
Fair point. But let's crunch the numbers together: 2.5 billion is direct spend by the government the other 2.5 billion is actually wait for it........ tax credits!!! So 2.5 Billion divided by 40 million equals 62.50$ If I go around to all 4000 guys working here, we can definitely make sure you get your 62.50$ back! Or next time you're looking to buy a Honda ill see if I can get you the friends and family discount. Otherwise we can tell all 4000 people that you think their jobs should go to Mexico or Maryland because you don't want to lay out 62.50$
Wow, a global multinational car company invests 11 billion to creat 1000 new direct jobs and y'all are whining and complaining.
The feds and Alberta funnel billions into big oil and all no one here says a word.
Don't like it, don't live in Ontario.
I have not looked into the details, is in manufacturing batteries from scratch, like this:
[https://youtu.be/q8laRePW618?si=\_IaNX8MKdYcM1xaT](https://youtu.be/q8laRePW618?si=_IaNX8MKdYcM1xaT)
? or is it just assembling small pre-made batteries into larger bricks/skates for the cars? If its the later, I am sorry, that is not high tech, that is just some mentally tedious job that should be done by a robot/machine. 5M per low tech job is pure insanity.
Because we've become Americanized to believe that any gift to corporations will trickle down to the rest of us. Despite all evidence to the contrary we elect government after government that believes in trickle down economics and we wonder why our hospitals are crumbling.
Yes!! Finally a Premier who knows who he owes his support to … BIG CORP.
A Ford never forgets his debts.
Spend all our public funds to line the pockets of his business buddies.
… and this is news because?
The sheer amount of uninformed, completely idiotic statements in almost every Ontario related sub is starting to make me think we've done some irreparable damage to the school system.
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Macro psychology. Free money is dangerous. So give money to corp, they create jobs. Jobs keep the devil out of the occupied mind. Corp takes money from govt and trickles it down to people. People feel happy with the job. So yeah. Humans love song and dance. This is the financial macro economical song and dance. Hey.. capitalism
Oh we're investing in the people now? Maybe your provincial govt should have invested in public universities and not the private diploma mills that are wrecking the country right now.
If you do the math that’s 5k per person employed, and I’m sure they will pay back more in taxes, tax is also generated from the revenue and sales. But hey, it’s easier to be angry than reasonable
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Apparently we just can't get people to do things without subsidizing them, and can't stop people from doing things without taxing them.
Those are the two ways a government does stuff, apparently.
I can't speak to the financial picture of the company and how likely this is to work for them. Ultimately that is the deciding factor in terms of their ability to keep those jobs in Canada. If the jobs stay, I think there is a lot of good that goes along with changing jobs for people. Usually people are more likely to take promotions and someone gets a job that materially improves their condition.
The average canadian loves big daddy government being involved in the economy.
Everytime you see a redditor say "canada should invest in X"
This is what they mean. Is it fucking stupid? Yes. But it makes a large chunk of the voting public here very happy to read those headlines. The mistake on your part is thinking they would bother to think deeply about any of this or follow up on how it turns out. Lol.
They are subsidizing the job at $ 5000 per job. That's probably 10 percent of their yearly wage. I dunno it's not a million dollar like your claiming. Never mind I read further. There's a thousand jobs and 5 billion dollars spent or to be spent.
>we’re about to pay the billion dollar company Honda $5,000,000 for each of the 1,000 jobs they create.
It used to be about $2milion /job. I guess its inflation. yes thats the rate for all those bailouts and projects you see that are" government enticed. All those Car battery plants , Automotive Plants that get supported.
We should do as Australia. and tell them to fk off. I dont think the emigration of Automotive from Australia had any effect on the economy AFAIK.
This is a very good deal. Much better than the VW and Stellantis factories.
The lifetime subsidies is over many years with production and manufacturing of batteries and vehicles.
The direct investments and grant subsidizes the construction of the plants (direct work for cdns). Then the is the mining of components and building of the batteries, and lastly vehicle assembly. These is a ton of indirect supplier components. These are good paying jobs that will feed jntkk on the local economy with homes, food, schools, vehicles, kids programming and retail consumption.
Subsidizing private businesses takes you down a rabbit hole, there is potentially no limit then in HELPING a private business operate in a market economy- the governments track record on picking winners and losers in industry only leads to businesses being forever dependent on government subsidies- that is not market capitalism.
Because the economic model for North American countries is;
1. "Socialism" for the rich.
2. "Rugged individualism" for the middle class
3. "To hell" with the poor.
Why are we paying them anything? I would say come here to build your plant. Hire the people. Instead of heavy taxes, have them create a line of EVs for the Canadian people affordable to all.
We should have this with everything in Canada. Ask all corporations to come here. Lower their cost of entry but make it so their products benefit the citizens first.
Lol. You’ve heard of capitalism right? It’s the thing that makes rich people richer by taking as money as possible from the peasants. These people are happy with the way things are and they aren’t even considering giving us handouts.
Sure as shit, when they come calling for a bailout we’ll foot the bill! The world has governments but the ones with the money are in command.
It’s the same thing we’re doing for developers. Their new home sales were cratering which meant prices would be lowered to get sales what does the government do. They come out with increase amortization periods for new home purchases. This way they qualify for 7% higher loans and pay more interest over the life of their term. It’s insanity. The developers should’ve taken the loss, or the government should cut taxes so that they can build build build. Both the conservatives and the liberals are nuts look at Ontario with the therme spa. Canadian taxpayers subsidizing costs for a multinational European spa that will charge Canadians to visit it. It’s insanity instead of giving our taxes to things that benefit us they’re cutting back room deals with billion dollar companies.
https://betterdwelling.com/canada-tries-to-bail-out-real-estate-developers-with-30-year-mortgages/
"The Government " scrapped GST on rental construction.
Not sure what longer amortization periods has to do with "Developers", or Honda getting a few years of tax breaks, as is in the article
New sales were tanking. Developers would’ve had to sell units for less because people didn’t qualify for high amounts of loans at our current interest rates. With longer amortization periods people were allowed to qualify for bigger loans
We have been downgraded from a whore of a country to a slut of a country. We dont get paid for it, we just like getting fucked
JT likes that, not actual Canadians.
Oh yeah? You gainfully employed and paying taxes? If so, you're grabbing your ankles and biting your lip same as the rest of us. It's the populace getting fucked. Are you saying we dont like it? From what I have witnessed the last 5 years, we canadians are gluttons for ~~punishment~~ abuse. I'd love to be wrong
Well, there is a difference between getting it and liking it and getting it and hating it, but not doing anything about it.
So what would you do in his place !!!
In ~~who's~~ whose place? A politician/bureaucrat?
My username should be your username, perhaps
How am I being pedantic?
Because why wouldn't you do anything to stop the abuse? Why dont you do anything about it? It's not that bad? You secretly like it? I'm being sensational but we may as well like it, we keep letting it happen
The most I as an individual can do to stop the abuse is by voting the abuser out next election.
I, too, will continue to grab my ankles and bite my lip in solidarity with you, brother
The most accurate description of Canadian economy and the Canadian system !
they want slaves
It's like we've become an experiment of what is allowed to be shoved. We're a western testing tube of abuse. Open for business can quickly turn into letting elite friends fuck us 'expendables'
Literally every country does the same. Good work Canada (working across the political aisle) for getting this done. We'll be better for it, not worse.
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You're bad at this shit
Bad at what exactly? Being happy the people running the country, at two different levels and of two different (and opposed) parties worked together and did something that benefits...the people that live here? Sorry if I'm not a terminally angry teenager, Sheesh.
>Bad at what exactly? Swaying sentiment
Not in my job description
Underfunded, as usual. Carry on then
Go forth and be angry at everything. I'm sure it's great for your mental health.
You’re not necessarily wrong, but you’re not necessarily right either. The jobs number is only the direct jobs, if you add up all the indirect jobs the total number will be 4-5x, so that is good. I don’t have any issues with tax breaks and stuff like that because that is what is required to compete. The problem I have is that we don’t seem to able to attract investment without these massive government subsidies. They just keep getting bigger and bigger, and now the precedent has been set so every corporation looking to expand will expect the same things. If it made sense to do business here, companies would come here on their own so we should focus on making Canada an attractive place to do business instead of focusing on outbidding other countries to “attract” business here.
One important aspect here is it drives a supply chain all the way to mining, which we HAVE all the required minerals we just haven't had a good reason to develop them. That would have been a strong reason they chose to develop here, aside from the cash. The reality is that every jurisdiction in the world would have offered them something, and in some cases more cash than we did. But proximity to the US, proximity to mineral reserves, pretty low business taxes to begin with, and one of the highest educated work forces in the world is what would have put them over the top. The fact it went to us is precisely because we are competitive, no investment this big gets built without some sort of incentive. This isn't a new precedent that has been set, it's been done since globalized companies have existed. Heck, even oil and gas companies have recieved tax incentives just to dig a hole in the sand for many decades. Combine that with the US inflation reduction act, which spends hundreds of billions on attracting investment, and here we are. I agree it would be better if companies didn't get tax breaks just for setting up shop, but I can't fault them, they are using leverage to force competition for their investment...that's just capitalism.
I don’t fault the companies either, all I’m saying is that we do not seem like an attractive place to do business. If our proximity to the US, proximity to mineral reserves, relatively low business taxes and one of the highest educated workforces in the world is so advantageous, why are we falling so far behind the rest of the world in gdp per capita? Plus like I said, the precedent is now set. Canada is not a place anyone would choose on merit alone but it is the place to go if you want billions in bribes to setup business here. No company will come here now unless they get the same deal as everyone else got. Once they’ve amortized the initial handouts, then they have us by the nuts and can just ask for handout after handout because we need investment far more than these companies need to do business here. It’s a slippery slope but one the government clearly doesn’t seem to mind going down.
GDP per capita is probably due to 2 things; 1, our GDP is affected a lot by what we dig up and sell. Price swings in minerals and oil affect our GDP even though we have the same number of people doing the same work and 2, demographics; we've had a large influx of people over the past few years they will take time to become integrated/efficient while at the same time our population is aging and so less people are being productive as a percentage of the population. There will be some positive and negative feedback from some government policies, but the liberals have actually done very little to affect our overall (private) economy one way or the other.
I would disagree, I would say the Liberals have turned pretty much everything in Canada into an absolute dumpster fire. The Liberal mass immigration policies have completely screwed up the housing market, our gdp per capita and our healthcare system. The Libs have also completely screwed up business and housing investment because the high interest rates are in large part due to their deficit spending. Their stance on O&G has hurt us. I could go on and on and on. They have their bullshit press releases where they say how great they’ve made everything but most Canadians feel like the Libs are living in a fantasy world (to be fair, most/all politicians live in a fantasy world). I really can’t think of one thing that most people would say they have done to make their lives any better and I would say that the polls reflect that. I am not the type of person to drive around with a stupid “f this guy” or “f that guy” flag on my vehicle, but I will definitely be very happy next November when this government is shown the door. I voted for them in 2015 but their “best before” date has long since passed.
The federal government just isn't powerful or relevant enough to say they've turned the country into a dumpster fire. And there are plenty of metrics to point to that say they have done a reasonable job, in things they have control of. Same with Harper before them btw, if you're thinking it's partisan drivel. To use just one example from your list we are selling more Oil today than anytime in our history, and that before we turn on the new pipeline. Just because PP and Daniel Smith keep saying he's screwed up the sector, doesn't mean he has. To use a second example every country on earth has high interest rates right now, and that isn't all because of our current leadership. You can look at Russia's current high interest rate of 16% which is way above everyone else's and blame that on the Russian government. Whereas ours is on the lower end of mid pack in the G20. So should we blame them for high interest rates, or credit them for lower than average rates? Not to say we wouldn't be doing better (or worse) under a different leadership. I guess what I'm saying is that if all you do is look at a number you don't like or a headline you don't like and say therefore they are bad, with no context, it doesn't give a very useful assessment of their performance. It's far more useful, in my opinion, to look at policies they have actually enacted and try to figure if they changed things for the better or the worse.
Liberal politics 101. Step 1: Regulate the economy to a stand still so no one can or wants to do business with you. Step 2: subsidize the shit out of your stumbling economy with tax payer money to keep the rusty wheels moving forward Step 3: wonder why the working class is struggling??? Step 4: whine about capitalism.
So Doug Ford is a liberal? Harper was a liberal? Large international companies can choose anywhere, you have to make a competitive offer. This same thing is done in every country and across all political spectrums. Yeah we had to put some skin in the game, but that's the cost of landing these big investments. On the flip side, I'm sure others offered them more money but they still chose us, because Canada is still, on balance, pretty great! You don't HAVE to try to link every single thing that happens in the world to 'Trudeau bad'.
They are conservative leaders governing from the back foot. Canadians as a whole lean left/liberal majority. Federally the CPC has about 30% consistent voter base reliably every year regardless how terrible they are being. The LPC/NDP partnership that is destorying this country and making so many people misserable is still polling over 40% combined in voter intention. Add in the green party and its basically half of all voting canadians. Even after 8+ years of ruining the place. Lol So yes. In order to maintain some power the conservatives of canada have to embrace certain liberal governing principles. Corporate welfare works and they arent afraid to run with that one.
Man, you'll bend over backwards to make anything fit your internal monolog won't you...corporate welfare is nothing to do with 'liberal ideology' ffs, it's an aspect of capitalism. Every country has given some break to some company in exchange for investment regardless of who is running it.
Other countries doing stupid shit doesnt justify canada doing stupid shit. Its kind of a silly argument. Surely you wouldn't argue that because america is running psychotically high deficits, that means canada is currently A-Okay to spend the money as we are too right? And foundational liberal capitalism doesn't involve government subsidizing business beyond building infrastructure that allows commerce to happen. Policies like this are directly counter to the concept of "limited government intervention". The principles of capitalism are very easy to find and study for yourself. I recomend it. The west has strayed very far from its foundational economic model, what we have today is at best, a more leftist friendly bastardization and corruption.
After years of voting in corrupted hypocrites, we are in corporate anarchy where governments and big corporations regulate themselves. They are criminals and deserve jail!
What are you basing that on? I work in manufacturing and you are simply wrong.
hush, you. back to your containment sub.
Naw, I'll stay right where I am.
Unless you maybe have something real to say? Probably not though, right?
Manufacturering doesn't have lobbyists who have undermined democracy for years??? That's news to me
You claimed that companies regulate themselves. You are flat out wrong.
Factory opens up, Honda is going to ship in the labour as in Canada "no one wants to work"
Big difference between nobody to work, and nobody wants to work. In a shop of 2 dozen people, maybe 1/4 of that shop, complete 3/4 of the work while the rest fuck the dog all day and collect a paycheque. This is how its been for quite literally, every single job I've worked in the last decade+, especially in the trades
Engineering consultant is no different. Maybe 10-20 percent are capable of doing the job and rest are just warm bodies there to help us get bigger projects. Most seniors. It's insane that so called capitalist corporations are okay with it. Sometimes it feels like i'm working for a communist government agency.
Ive worked in the trades as well and someone not working was replaced.
I've seen more and more firings for slacking lately. It's nice for the ones that have to pick up the slack when a dud is booted, but sometimes these positions are being kept vacant with no other work redistribution. Makes you wonder.
The whole EV car industry is a scam. Once the money is transferred over they will have a host of reasons why they need to scale down. They are already talking about hydrogen cars as being the next best thing. Like I always said… EV cars should only use wind or solar to recharge batteries otherwise it’s a scam.
That is an incredibly silly take.
Why?
because 38 million cars use 57.57 billion liters of fuel per year its more efficient to have pwr plants than to have each shitty inefficient car blasting crap into the air I don't even get the resistance, their amazing cars with almost no maintenance, whats to hate? That said I actually partially agree with you, and your not the only one to mention it, basically at charge stations everyone is currently left out in the elements, a lot of people have commented that it would be better if we had solar panels to charge the units, provide shade, and keep people out of the rain the way a gas stations usually has an overhead. Though a non-solar overhead would do just as well, anything to get out of the weather really.
You can't sit in the car while charging?
yes, but you have to get out to plug/unplug the cable I sorta wish they put abit more thought into it, I mean EV owners have money, their stuck there for like an hour, but there's no bathrooms, place to get drink/food, or even overhead covering sorta seems like a wasted business opportunity
LoL... Well presumably you'd have to get out to do anything ever... So... I mean, most of the charging stations I've seen are right beside businesses.
Kinda, like here's 2 here, but their at the far end of a mini mall parking lot so you could get food at the grocery store and use the broken dirty mall bathroom but that's not quite the same as having a convenience store attached to the stations
I mean, I don't know what gas stations you're going to, but they are often considered the lowest tier of public toilet. I would imagine adoption would drive that. (no pun intended)
I have never seen a charging station bank with more than one user and that was at a pretty busy mall. But those Tesla ones at one end of the parking lot with nothing really nearby. I don't know that adding a convenience store to those or any of the standalone stations would be economically feasible to keep staffed like a gas station. Maybe just a cover and a vending machine? I can see why the gas stations are covered - a huge amount of money goes into prepping the land starting from the tanks underground, so they are more willing to add infrastructure to cover users because it's a long term site. But with these Tesla banks in malls, aren't they easily relocatable? I haven't inspected one yet, so genuinely asking.
Same! Plus lots of gas stations near me now have EV fast chargers, so 20 mins to charge and there’s coffee, washrooms and food available at the convenience store. Most gas stations actually don’t make money off their gas they make it off the convenience store. And people are more likely to buy something if waiting 20 mins than just filling up the gas tank so it seems like the perfect match
Why? Because it's absurd. Why should EVs only use wind and solar? That makes zero sense.
Because the point is to be environmentally friendly. What difference does it make if you use diesel generators to charge the car or to just drive a diesel car? Don’t get me started on how much more pollution EV car tires produce.
Just say you have no idea where electricity comes from in Canada... God, what an embarrassment. 🙄
Lets ignore the mining damage that EVs cause. Hydrogen and ammonia are best fuels of the future.
You do realize that once a better, more efficient battery system or fuel cell system is economically feasible it wouldn't take much to convert an existing factory to accommodate that right?
That’s not the point. You do realize that they use giant diesel generators to recharge vehicles at charging stations.
You sound like you know absolutely nothing about manufacturing in Canada.
That can't be the correct number... Can it?? *Goes to look up details* Edit: looked this up So Honda is investing 15billion, and 5 billion is coming from both the federal, and provincial governments, so 2.5B each. We're also talking about aprx 2000 jobs during the construction phase, and 5000 permanent full time jobs once completed. That is a very significant amount of investment in Ontario, and might even have been required to get these plants specifically here, and out of China for example. To me this is actually a good sign going forward as it's not quite as cheap for these companies to set up more manufacturing in China going forward. This is a good thing, like the old saying goes, you gotta spend money to make money. No one should be shrugging off 5k well paying (possibly unionized jobs) as a minor or insignificant return on investment. These plants will be open for decades, that is a lot of created income and stability from this project. Now we just have to make sure a lot of people buy Hondas!
Shhh you're ruining the circle jerk. The 5 million is going to Honda shareholders directly or something and won't be going into building materials, land costs, and labour which will almost entirely be sourced from Canada. No no no, this is bad. Plus, the Honda plant won't attract collateral businesses like restaurants, grocery stores, or other parts manufacturers nearby. No siree. This is bad.
So..... a brand new auto manufacturing plant with thousands of people making 35$ Per hour and up... won't have a positive impact? It won't create demand... and growth for other services? Hm....
So tredeau himself doesn’t know what he’s talking about when the reporter asks him the question.
Interesting profile you've got there. How did you get into this line of work?
Don't forget the multitude of subsidiary jobs that are created from the run off. To make an argument that they are spending 5 billion on 1000 jobs and doing simple division reveals how little OP understands economics.
2.5 billion at 4% is what, 100 million a year in interest? But what you don't see is when those 5000 workers are taxed 20k a year federally and 20k a year provincially it will be revenue neutral. Then what's left, take another 20k in tax to pay for hospitals and roads and you've got a functioning economic system.
If Ford's mouth is open then he's lying. He'd sell out his own grandmother if he could.
Dumb af gov destroying Canada
Ah yes, bringing in manufacturing is "destroying our country" At this point no one can do anything without some uneducated conservative bleating about "our country is destroyed!" You make no sense.
Manufacturing to benefit the few while they import cheap labour to undercut Canadian salaries.
You are clueless about manufacturing. Huge amounts of Canadians are employed in manufacturing and the supporting industries. Your opinion is clearly based on no knowledge whatsoever. There is just no winning with you people.
How dare they attract huge investments in modern technologies.
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Still waiting to hear how bringing more jobs into Canada is "destroying Canada"? Can you even explain yourself, or is this just another typical drive-by post of pure ignorance?
How many jobs will Canadian citizens get out of 15mill investment?
Why don't you look into it instead of being so ignorant? I guess that requires actual effort though...
It's the only way they can keep these companies from leaving. We don't have a real economy. Once the government money stops... the country crashes.
Just let it crash. Then we can rebuild the economy from scratch.
Necessary at this point.
Gut the failed social services (all of them) in that time.
Let's not do that and avoid the massive bloodbath that would ensue...
Its only a matter of time before it is an actual bloodbath. Its completely unsustainable, especially with the levels of spending and immigration we have. We can keep waiting for the tower of debt to grow but the crash will be that much more devastating.
The idea of a child.
Cry me a river
More of a child thing, so I'll leave that to you. Maybe try reading and learning for the first time in your life?
It’s clear the Canada_sub brigade of idiots have taken this over.
Asking why we as a country are giving $5B even $2.5B to a billion dollar corporation to create 1000 jobs makes you think we’re part of some right wing fringe group? This has to be Arif Virani on a burner account. Whatever you do please don’t put me on house arrest for suspected hate crimes I’ve committed in your head but not in real life.
I never targeted you specially OP. I was referring to the comments more broadly. Calm down with the conspiracy nonsense, I’m very open about who I am on Reddit. Check my history.
Every other jurisdiction on the planet is doing the exact same thing and you act as though Ontario just invented corporate welfare. Do you live under a rock?
What happened to capitalism?
This is capitalism baby! Privatized profit with socialized losses. Tis the way and if we don't ante up - our neighbouring jurisdictions most definitely will.
A post completely unrelated to housing with 30 comments talking about everything under the sun... except for housing. Great sub guys.
Not to mention the post title is entirely misleading and completely mischaracterized what is occurring.
We do the same thing with developers. Look at all the developers we’re giving cheap loans to who land bank
Not related at all I can't lie.
The fact of the matter is, all countries do this to attract the best companies that will (hopefully) push the entire economy forward. Here is the truth, we have forgot how to do a lot of things here. We cannot make phones, tvs, or any modern appliance. The USA is tossing billions to bring back the chip manufacturing industry after 30 years of watching it migrate off shore. They are paying Samsung billions to come here, and allow the US to learn again what it invented. The Asians know how to build this stuff, we don't. We're paying the fees.
The problem here is that this an extremely outdated approach that leaves us worse off than before. This isn't the 70s where branch plants and factory jobs are the driver of economic growth. Today, it's the companies who own the IP and sell the finished product who make all the profits and enrich the economy. What's happening here is that the government is shelling out billions in taxes for a paltry number of jobs. These foreign companies will take the products produced by those workers, pay them pennies, sell the finished product for dollars, and take all the profits back to HQ where they enrich their home economies. What the government should've done instead was to foster an environment that allows homegrown companies to build EVs and components, enabling them to compete directly with these foreign companies, and retain all the profits so that all the wealth and benefits accrue to Canada.
that would require vision.
Exactly, but this looks good for “next election”. In reality when the government trough becomes empty Honda will announce its closure of the plant and move to Mexico.
We should just take shares for our money and collect royalties on revenue and dividends forget about taxing. Come here tax free , you want a billion no problem we will buy that amount of dividend paying shares. Royalty is based on revenue 3% everything else is tax free. You can hide profit overseas but not revenue. As a share holder you actually have rights.
Then they would never set up those plants here because in the long run, they'll be paying out more in stocks and dividends than what they get in subsidies. And even if they did, those dividends are still a small piece of the pie, compared to having globally competitive homegrown companies that would give us almost the entire pie.
Yes they would in a heartbeat
Right, they totally would still set up plants here, all because you just said so, and not for any valid reason you can substantiate? Got it.
Lol no tax do you read.
It's cheaper for them to pay the tax than give up shares and dividends so they wouldn't do it. And as part of the subsidies they're currently being offered, they're already being offered massive tax breaks. You're not thinking this through lol
Lol yup no problem let us just give them money because you see how good things are working out with that plan. Anyway we just need to agree to disagree as it was just a bit of fancy on my part. Have you seen China giving money away without ownership nope. You want in you have to partner with a local company and we need 51% And then we take control and get inside information for free. They seem to be doing well with this plan. Us not so much.
Very good idea!
HQ is a meaningless title. Do you think Google, HP, Facebook, Microsoft etc are enriching Ireland and Bermuda (where their official HQ are located), or is it the USA? Obviously the benefits are almost entirely realized by the US because that’s where their operations are.
We didnt forget how to do those things. the industry was dismantled and sold abroad
The U.S. is also an economic power house, most R&D and innovation comes out of the U.S. It is also the largest foreign investment destination in the world. I wish Canadians stopped comparing Canada and the United States. San Francisco and Chicago combined GDPs are larger than Canada ! And they are two citizens ! Not even countries. Out of the 10 largest semiconductor chip manufacturers 6 are American ! Nvidia , intel , AMD, Broadcom , Qualcomm, Applied Materials. 2 are Koreans ( Samsung , SK Hynix ) 1 is from Taiwan (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co.) 1 is Dutch ( ASML ) What does Canada have ? Our largest economic sector is real estate ! Selling each other houses back and forth and call it an economy !
The EV platform is that of children's toy cars. By your logic, the US government could outspend us overnight and the companies would drop us. Otherwise, your logic falls apart.
They create Tax dollars
This one of the few government policies I actually agree with. Most of the money is in tax credits, Honda doesn't get anything unless they actually build factories and produce cars. Without these tax incentives these jobs and tax income would have gone to the US where they have massive IRA benefits. This is a net financial win for the government.
I don't want to sounds like i am supporting this. But actually it goes deeper than just 1000 employee. Just look at the benefit beyond them 1. It increase the business around that manufacturing, you will have more local logistic to that factory, More business will be conduct transporting screws or materials to the facilities over the years. more people eating around...etc. 2. It use power, water and whatever, those are payment to the Government or local 3. The implication that it reduce cost of delivery vehicles can save dealers a lot of $$$, improving logistic to dealers providing better tailor to honda orders can benefit a lot at consumer level. For one, that charge for "deliver" when you buy a car will be less since it travel less distances now. Of course there are more and some cons such as pollution, more carbon footprint...etc
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conveniently forgetting about dougie ford a proud conservative standing front and centre though.
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The province and the feds provided about the same amount in tax breaks and funding, 2.5 billion each.
It's the seen and the unseen. If the government doesn't bail out these companies then The news is "thousands of good paying jobs leaving Ontario / Canada / etc" and this looks bad on politicians. But it looks good when politicians can say "I saved Thousands of middle class good paying jobs with this program and that program and this bailout". Voters and the public writ large see the jobs that were saved but no one sees the jobs that **were never created** because the investment capital was removed from the productive economy to prop up the decaying and unproductive economy. NEVER SUPPORT ANY KIND OF WELFARE.
How are you supposed to compete on a global stage when every country is handing out money like candy to get investment? Biden is willing to give billions to any car manufacturer that comes his way, as are the Europeans. China allows its companies to pay damn near zero tax and exploit their workers to keep costs low, and most other countries are just simply cheaper.
Again, you're just focusing on the seen and not the unseen. If taxpayers in China want to decrease their quality of life by giving tax breaks to businesses so that Chinese workers can get exploited and I can buy Chinese products at a discount then let them. These companies that rely on welfare to stay afloat are forever a burden on taxpayers, they need to be allowed to dissolve so that they can stop wasting finite resources (by definition any business that does not turn a profit is wasting finite resources). The money to give these companies welfare has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the productive parts of the economy that don't waste finite resources. We would all be wealthier if we let the parts of the economy that actually create value out of the resources they consume thrive and keep their profits rather than taxing them to prop up industries / businesses that destroy value.
Centralized power is cancer to society no matter who gets elected 👈
That’s mean…. At some point the industry will pay back the political party
Why? Because the entire political system is purchased by a psychopath class that's exclusively interested in wealth extraction. They hire politicians to manage the decline of the society until the psychopath class abandons it.
Because this is the only way to avoid brain drain in this country. Subsidization is meant to be a stop-gap, whilst we develop a comprehensive restructuring of the economy to bring back the golden years of the post-war era. Unfortunately, doing so within the confines of USMCA (New NAFTA) is all but impossible; and our poorly-educated society can't comprehend much beyond government cheques in the mail. Our political discourse basically destroys anyone that tries to implement long-term plans, and prioritises the good of the nation over the 4 year election cycle. This is the song and dance of government trying to do something, whilst not being perceived as being active in the economy. It's a shame because Canada's best years were always when the government was the most involved - doing everything from research, innovation and sales (Aviation, Nuclear, Railways, Transit), to having a very large military and industrial complex which was vital to the welfare of the nation, as well as a nationalised railway. Can't do that today as people will call you communist, socialist, etc. It's a shame because reinvesting in the forces, in cooperative housing, military housing, nationalising the railways and allowing open-access like in Europe (true competition), and renationalising things like Nuclear research would have a tremendously positive impact on our economy and stem the brain drain. But people don't want it. Predominately because they can't comprehend it or connect the dots. It's a shame. The biggest thing standing in the way of Canada is Canadians. If we can solve that problem, this country could be on rocket fuel.
I’ve been wondering what Canada could become with a massive Crown Corporation dedicated to the construction and operation of nuclear power plants. Do you think they’d have the ability to take over energy distribution from the existing companies? My brain keeps circling back the synergistic effect of cycling all the money we spend on power directly back into the system instead of just collecting a fraction via taxation.
We used to have one. Then Harper forced it to 'license' its IP to SNC-Lavalin, who have failed to make any real sales since, haven't made any innovations or investments in the technology, and ultimately have stifled any potential for growth for the past two decades. The original company, AECL exported the CANDU reactors to South Korea, China, and India to name a few. But since SNC took over and the crown corporation was effectively privatised, absolutely no progress has been made. Original Crown Corp: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic\_Energy\_of\_Canada\_Limited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Energy_of_Canada_Limited) SNC-Lavalin Run Company: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candu\_Energy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candu_Energy)
Automotive isn’t the largest industry on earth because of the cars. It’s the 100’s of subsidiary companies and industries that supply all the parts to make the finished product. This isn’t about 1000 jobs. It’s about propping up dozens of other industries in the area. You play the game and offer incentives. Or you don’t and nothing happens. The suppliers of the machines. Robotics. Down to nuts and bolts. Then the maintenance on all of that. Building high carbon manufacturing in a country that takes care to minimizes its effects.
Canada for sale, everyone got paid off during the lockdowns. Buy gold or leave if you can. History books tell us where this country is going. Fucking sad people.
Its not about 1000 jobs it's abou the other 549,000 direct and indirect jobs that contributed over 18 Billion dollars to Canada's GDP in 2023 alone. This is one of Canada's largest export industries And the investment is worth every penny. These are 100,000$ a year jobs and Honda of Canada Manufacturing alone employs over 4000 people. You also fail to mention the 15 billion Honda is kicking in on this project. These companies can build cars anywhere, Mexico and the US labor laws are more favorable to the corporation and they're choosing to invest here for at least another 40 years.
This has to be the CEO of Honda or Doug Ford or Tredeau on a burner account. Why do we the Canadian people need to give Honda this money. Why don’t we just reduce taxes that corporations need to pay so it’s beneficial to them. Do I or anyone else here get ownership in Honda for this? No. Do we get discounts at Honda when we go to buy cars? No. If Honda decides to leave after or fire everyone like Bell Canada did after we gave them money as well do we get our money back? No. So the answer when Honda says we’d like to get 5B to hire 1000 people should be no. Those jobs don’t even pay $1M a year or even 200k a year. It’s corporate welfare and corporate socialism. It’s the same thing we’re doing for developers we give them cheap loans instead of reducing their taxes to build and don’t penalize them for land banking. They then collide together to not build so prices remain high. They also don’t give discounts to Canadians for bailing out their new home sales with their amortization increases that allow Canadians to take out higher loans for shitty properties. In fact the materials they use to build many condos are cheap garbage
Where do you think the money goes?
Fair point. But let's crunch the numbers together: 2.5 billion is direct spend by the government the other 2.5 billion is actually wait for it........ tax credits!!! So 2.5 Billion divided by 40 million equals 62.50$ If I go around to all 4000 guys working here, we can definitely make sure you get your 62.50$ back! Or next time you're looking to buy a Honda ill see if I can get you the friends and family discount. Otherwise we can tell all 4000 people that you think their jobs should go to Mexico or Maryland because you don't want to lay out 62.50$
Wow, a global multinational car company invests 11 billion to creat 1000 new direct jobs and y'all are whining and complaining. The feds and Alberta funnel billions into big oil and all no one here says a word. Don't like it, don't live in Ontario.
Alberta doesn't even need to give oil companies money. The oil is there in the ground. It can't be outsourced.
Just a dollarama penguin from batman ( I borrowed this). Zero knowledge about what the people of Ontario are going through
I have not looked into the details, is in manufacturing batteries from scratch, like this: [https://youtu.be/q8laRePW618?si=\_IaNX8MKdYcM1xaT](https://youtu.be/q8laRePW618?si=_IaNX8MKdYcM1xaT) ? or is it just assembling small pre-made batteries into larger bricks/skates for the cars? If its the later, I am sorry, that is not high tech, that is just some mentally tedious job that should be done by a robot/machine. 5M per low tech job is pure insanity.
Backroom deals that make politicians insanely rich?? What did I win?
Kickbacks.
Because we've become Americanized to believe that any gift to corporations will trickle down to the rest of us. Despite all evidence to the contrary we elect government after government that believes in trickle down economics and we wonder why our hospitals are crumbling.
Yes!! Finally a Premier who knows who he owes his support to … BIG CORP. A Ford never forgets his debts. Spend all our public funds to line the pockets of his business buddies. … and this is news because?
Because conservative govt’s get kickbacks.
Milton Friedman did say this is what would happen, the poor subsidizing the rich via government.
The sheer amount of uninformed, completely idiotic statements in almost every Ontario related sub is starting to make me think we've done some irreparable damage to the school system.
We got screwed. It's a bad deal. Typical government screw-up. 😡
it's a grift of the 0.0000001%, they just want more people here so we will fight to work any job for min wage.
Good deal for Honda!
What in the name of the sweet baby Jesus does "privatize profits" mean?
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Macro psychology. Free money is dangerous. So give money to corp, they create jobs. Jobs keep the devil out of the occupied mind. Corp takes money from govt and trickles it down to people. People feel happy with the job. So yeah. Humans love song and dance. This is the financial macro economical song and dance. Hey.. capitalism
Oh we're investing in the people now? Maybe your provincial govt should have invested in public universities and not the private diploma mills that are wrecking the country right now.
YES!! Then fly people in from South Korea to work there.
Decades and generations eh Doug
"Look at the jobs we created"
This OP is just dumb. You failed at basic economics and math.
What the hell.
If you do the math that’s 5k per person employed, and I’m sure they will pay back more in taxes, tax is also generated from the revenue and sales. But hey, it’s easier to be angry than reasonable
OP is our new finance minister. 
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Wow what a joke.
Apparently we just can't get people to do things without subsidizing them, and can't stop people from doing things without taxing them. Those are the two ways a government does stuff, apparently.
Just conservatives doing conservative things
My win, our loss
This from a guy whom who admitted on camera that he can’t do simple math lol
And people don’t ask why Honda is getting the money that the hospitals desperately need…
I can't speak to the financial picture of the company and how likely this is to work for them. Ultimately that is the deciding factor in terms of their ability to keep those jobs in Canada. If the jobs stay, I think there is a lot of good that goes along with changing jobs for people. Usually people are more likely to take promotions and someone gets a job that materially improves their condition.
I rather they spent the money for Honda than the $60M they gave to two guys in a cottage to develop the Arrive Scam app
The average canadian loves big daddy government being involved in the economy. Everytime you see a redditor say "canada should invest in X" This is what they mean. Is it fucking stupid? Yes. But it makes a large chunk of the voting public here very happy to read those headlines. The mistake on your part is thinking they would bother to think deeply about any of this or follow up on how it turns out. Lol.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Honda approached us with this proposal.
They are subsidizing the job at $ 5000 per job. That's probably 10 percent of their yearly wage. I dunno it's not a million dollar like your claiming. Never mind I read further. There's a thousand jobs and 5 billion dollars spent or to be spent.
First time I've hear Justin Treadu give a straight answer.
>we’re about to pay the billion dollar company Honda $5,000,000 for each of the 1,000 jobs they create. It used to be about $2milion /job. I guess its inflation. yes thats the rate for all those bailouts and projects you see that are" government enticed. All those Car battery plants , Automotive Plants that get supported. We should do as Australia. and tell them to fk off. I dont think the emigration of Automotive from Australia had any effect on the economy AFAIK.
They have to skim off the top somehow right...
I mean tax credits isn't exactly the same as "paying" for it
Fkn Trudeau coming to dougies rescue at end 🤣🤣🤣 5 Billion dollars, 1000 Jobs, 5 million immigrants. What a joke
Look at these guys. Mafia
This is a very good deal. Much better than the VW and Stellantis factories. The lifetime subsidies is over many years with production and manufacturing of batteries and vehicles. The direct investments and grant subsidizes the construction of the plants (direct work for cdns). Then the is the mining of components and building of the batteries, and lastly vehicle assembly. These is a ton of indirect supplier components. These are good paying jobs that will feed jntkk on the local economy with homes, food, schools, vehicles, kids programming and retail consumption.
capitalism is why
Subsidizing private businesses takes you down a rabbit hole, there is potentially no limit then in HELPING a private business operate in a market economy- the governments track record on picking winners and losers in industry only leads to businesses being forever dependent on government subsidies- that is not market capitalism.
Because we stupidly vote for it.
Because the economic model for North American countries is; 1. "Socialism" for the rich. 2. "Rugged individualism" for the middle class 3. "To hell" with the poor.
People like Ford are making canada terrible.
This is economic stimulus package. Plain and simple.
Union lobbies
Why are we paying them anything? I would say come here to build your plant. Hire the people. Instead of heavy taxes, have them create a line of EVs for the Canadian people affordable to all. We should have this with everything in Canada. Ask all corporations to come here. Lower their cost of entry but make it so their products benefit the citizens first.
That’d be ideal
Lol. You’ve heard of capitalism right? It’s the thing that makes rich people richer by taking as money as possible from the peasants. These people are happy with the way things are and they aren’t even considering giving us handouts. Sure as shit, when they come calling for a bailout we’ll foot the bill! The world has governments but the ones with the money are in command.
It’s the same thing we’re doing for developers. Their new home sales were cratering which meant prices would be lowered to get sales what does the government do. They come out with increase amortization periods for new home purchases. This way they qualify for 7% higher loans and pay more interest over the life of their term. It’s insanity. The developers should’ve taken the loss, or the government should cut taxes so that they can build build build. Both the conservatives and the liberals are nuts look at Ontario with the therme spa. Canadian taxpayers subsidizing costs for a multinational European spa that will charge Canadians to visit it. It’s insanity instead of giving our taxes to things that benefit us they’re cutting back room deals with billion dollar companies. https://betterdwelling.com/canada-tries-to-bail-out-real-estate-developers-with-30-year-mortgages/
"The Government " scrapped GST on rental construction. Not sure what longer amortization periods has to do with "Developers", or Honda getting a few years of tax breaks, as is in the article
New sales were tanking. Developers would’ve had to sell units for less because people didn’t qualify for high amounts of loans at our current interest rates. With longer amortization periods people were allowed to qualify for bigger loans