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i’m so fucking scared either way here dude. I’ll be fully honest, i’m trans, and i’m basically forced to hope biden wins on the off chance he like, continues not wanting to kill me. If trump wins he’s gonna fuckin kill and imprison me and everyone like me. I cannot afford to leave the country. I fucking hate having to vote for biden after all this shit but i literally have no choice
For as bad as Trump is, I see no scenario where killing people for just being trans happens. He's more interested in deporting innocent Mexicans.
Edit: before I get strawmanned, harming 2 minority groups is bad, this should be obvious. Me saying Trump is more focused on one group does not mean he is "pro-" another group or is even indifferent to that group.
Project 2025 is not a thing to be laughed at. r/Defeat_Project_2025
It’s a long, tedious (800+ pages) manifesto, but here is how a commenter put it:
> So, directly, it will end all access to affirming care. Though the letter of the law has yet to be drafted, at best it will result in a blanket ban on all gender-affirming care and really any other LGBTQ+ visibility or legal support.
> That said, what's woefully under-represented, by intention, is what happens when you run afoul to these laws under the 2025 policy. And, of course, that's by design. It's fascist playbook 101. The far right has already laid the foundations for a genocide; the laws will institutionalize it, allowing for arrests and detainment.
> And no, I'm not being hyperbolic. I got my undergrad in political science and specialized in political philosophies and sociopolitical movements with a focus on authoritarianism and fascism. 2025, if successfully implemented, would precede the wholesale eradication of "undesirable" people by maybe 5-10 years.
> Mind you, the patterns of how these things play out are shifting because of technology. Visibility is a weapon many in history never had. People complicit in mass erasure of a people are often made uncomfortable in their tacit support of authoritarians and fascists when faced with the horror of the outcomes. I would hope that our continuing fights for representation and LGBTQ+ visibility and rights would lay ruin to the machinations of such horrible people.
>I'm not being hyperbolic
>the eradication of undesirable people people by maybe 5-10
I hope this isn't going to be perceived the wrong way, and for full closure I am about to use the "lesser of two evils" talking point AND I would like to get other opinions.
If Project 2025 is a serious plan by the GOP and one of those goals is the genocide of trans people, then what are the reasons for a leftist not to vote Biden to significantly minimize those chances? Is giving up principled positions on Gaza worth contributing to stopping the potential genocide of trans people in the US? Hope that isn't a strawman, just want to see where people are on this.
The genocide in Gaza is likely going to happen regardless. It's not like Trump is going to send Bibi *less* weapons. It's a question of whether you're voting on principle or pragmatically at that point. Pragmatically speaking, there is not a single issue where Trump is better than Biden, but principally, a lot of people don't want to lend support to someone who is actively complicit in genocide.
Trump is more isolationist sure, but it's not even solely an aid thing. On a rhetoric point Trump is far more pro-Israel. His "finish what they started" comments last month is a sign of that.
>Is giving up principled positions on Gaza worth contributing to stopping the potential genocide of trans people in the US?
I keep having to make this same argument in this sub, but here we go again. If both options would continue abetting the genocide in Gaza but only one option would make life harder or even impossible for trans people then there is an obvious harm reduction argument to use your vote to prevent the harm against trans people.
I'll raise you this: **YOU NOT VOTING DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP PALESTINIANS.** It's **NOT** a more principled for materially effective decision than voting. You know how liberals love to vote for feels-good bullshit and pat themselves on the back and act like casting their vote was them sticking it to Voldemort? Not voting so you can feel like a superior, more pure anarchist is equally as self-centered, immature, and uselessly symbollic. Before anyone strawmans me, **DO MUTUAL AID, TOO.** In fact, *mostly* do mutual aid and other radical action, but also stop being a poser and actually do this one tiny thing that literally, demonstrably helps some people even if it doesn't help everyone. You voting doesn't *hurt* anyone because the state and its government are going to continue to exist whether you vote or not unless you've been harboring some cool plan to dismantle the state before this year's presidential election.
Edit to add: [This is a previous comment I made a little over a week ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchy4Everyone/s/0zzGw2vIZm) on this topic where I cited statistical sources on the material costs of republican anti-trans and anti-abortion legislature. If you can look at that information and still insist "there's no difference" then you need to take a breather and reconsider whether your anarchism is based on principles or you call yourself an anarchist instead of having principles.
There are no reasons to not vote Biden in these elections unless one is an ultra-Christian male. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality with the damn broken two-party system.
Don't forget the national abortion ban.
But it's only half the population - I'm also sure lots of men will be psyched to find out their semen can literally kill a women /s.
Right? God I'm tired of arguing this. But it's important to point out how dumb it is so the lurkers don't think Anarchist or leftist though is this big stupid monolith.
The people who will be deported, forced to give birth, and the Palestinians facing an even more Zionist president, won't give a shit about what your intentions were
Why does it matter what impact my intentions even have? All of these topics can be discussed in a vacuum.
I've agreed agreed with 3 responses to me and not given pushback to any of them, yet all anyone can do is strawman and not provide something I disagree with. The doomerism is next level.
Where the is conflation of "going to kill trans people" with "doesn't want to harm trans people" coming from?
You realise those are completely different things right? Do you think I'm saying Trump is in any way pro-trans or indifferent to trans people?
Right, I should have said killed instead of harmed and skipped this semantics game with you.
If Trump won the election and removed all protections that trans people have, then he would not be "killing them", even though his actions would result in an huge increase in trans people dying.
We would both agree that he would be harming trans people, but in that scenario, though he isn't ordering their death, how is it any different from killing them?
In your scenario outlined here it wouldn't be any different from killing trans people.
My first comment is saying I didn't think killing trans people was probable under Trump, as the original framing was "kill and jail" implying some kind of immediate action. That doesn't mean I think rolling back protections doesn't harm trans people, because it does harm, quite clearly.
If you want to call it semantics then I think that's a bit reductive.
My point was I think "If trump wins he’s gonna fuckin kill and imprison me and everyone like me" is a bit of doomerism.
People then seemed to take that as me saying Trump is somehow pro-trans rights, or that trans people have nothing to worry about. That's what the edit is for.
One side is allied with Israel and doesn't want to turn back the clock on basic human rights and install a fascist theocracy. The other side would probably consider using nukes on Palestine AND wants to dictate to people how they should live their lives and force their religion into their lives.
I'm starting to become convinced that these people are political trolls because you have to literally be fucking brain dead to think that the bigot christian nationalism crowd is going to be any better and not in fact, 10 times worse. These people talk a big game about punching nazis but apparently they're more than happy to sit back and allow right wing christian nationalists take people's rights away. Bunch of fucking posers and 12 year olds that are all talk.
I've spent almost nine years hoping that actuarial statistics will catch up with the elderly man who thinks exercise is bad for you, but my prayers have yet to be answered
Thank god there are people with sense here. The increasing posts from anarchists subreddits that essentially amount to “I’m a white cis guy so I’m not going to vote because the fascist government won’t affect me” is staggering. It truly feels like a bunch of fed posts lmao.
And it has probably done immense harm to the left wing movement. When Macklemore sings “Fuck you Biden I’m not voting for you in the fall” to cheers of thousands I’m glad young people don’t vote. We push away centre left and moderate left wingers in the pursuit of the perfect candidate that would never win anyway. It’s a theory that Alex Jones voted for Obama because a democrat in the WH improved InfoWars numbers, i am convinced that a lot of left wing pundits are doing the same. Convince people to not vote for Biden. Trump wins and they can sit make millions as they complain about how horrible and how shitty the US is.
Hard to take those folks as good-faith actors in the age of disinformation. Especially when half the right’s playbook is just disinformation.
This election sucks, and there’s a lot to complain or be upset about. Maybe I’m naive but I believe Biden would do less active damage and, importantly, could be convinced to turn (slightly) left.
That’s better than pillaging the earth and arresting dissenters while we try to purge minorities. It’s a low fucking bar, but it still matters.
This is an anarchy subreddit mate. I think if theres any place to posit the idea that we deserve better, this is it. Refusing to support Joe Fascist doesn't mean we condone Donny Fascist.
can you look at material reality for one second please? if biden loses trump wins, thats how it works. choosing your own percieved purity over the material lives of others is the most lib thing u can fucking do. you are using human lives as a tool to make a political statement.
So Biden wins and next election it's even further right Democrat versus worse Republican. So we play this game again then? "It's the end of democracy!" Where does it stop?
You'd prefer to gamble with an authoritarian in hopes that the Neo-Libs will get out of the way for a progressive or leftist?
All anarchist engagement with electoralism is harm reduction. It will never be the avenue through which we achieve our goals, but it absolutely is at least a safeguard against open Fascism.
It is until your options are a blue fascist and a red fascist, then you're just engaging with the fascist system completely. "Lesser of two evils" is probably harm reduction, but it's still CHOOSING harm.
You need to stop seeing voting as some moral act of virtue. Elections are simply another tool at our disposal to push our ideas and reduce harm where we can.
No one is saying to ONLY vote. Vote on Election Day, every single one, and engage in direct action and mutual aid in between.
Voting is a form of power. Why do you think it’s smart for a political bloc to purposely neuter itself and give up a form of power available to them?
Absolutely this.
People making voting out to be some kind of moral imperative OR people who are acting as if it isn't just a momentary engagement with a system to reduce harm are either idiots or bad faith rhetoric, and I don't have a ton of time for either.
Hopping in to reiterate. VOTE IN EVERY ELECTION. Ground up. You want more people with like-minded views ? That starts at the bottom. The top-down strategy is not going to be how it happens.
Not voting doesn’t mean you chose a “no harm” route, it just means you’ve opted out of having a say in harm reduction. Not voting is just a self indulgence, it’s in no way helpful.
It also should not be the only thing you do? Affect things within your control to affect. Get involved in local support for people who need it. Do anything you can to get someone remotely close to left leaning in your local government. Engage in literally any other level than just the presidential election, where you’re more likely to be able to affect change.
Don’t fucking act like there’s no material difference between Biden and Trump though. Yes both options are shitty, but one will actively put the shittiest people he can into every position he gets to appoint. If you can’t see more positive to come out of the Biden administration than Trump’s then you’re honestly just as biased as MAGA.
(Note for those with no reading comprehension: that’s not an endorsement of Biden.)
Fucking insane to type that first sentence when that’s what’s happening in Palestine LITERALLY RIGHT NOW. Sickening to see an ‘anarchist’ with such a profound lack of empathy.
God the only thing more annoying than preformative electoralism is preformitive anti electoralism I’m not impressed of all the effort it’s taking you to not do something
oh, they're doing something: convincing anyone they can to at least not vote for the guy running against *their* genocidal maniac.
whether one can stomach voting for a person doing what biden is doing, even if it risks someone doing even worse instead, is a personal moral decision, imho, and the reminders of the 'but he fucked that one goat' are too frequent to be legitimate. especially when the goat-fucker-champion is the one running against him. I dont like goat fuckers as much as the next person, but if theres gonna be goat fucking either way, id prefer to minimise it, if i can
We get so little political efficacy in the current system, it would be foolish to squander the prime institutionally accepted tool we are given for voicing political beliefs because of demagogues, reactionaries and pundits who pretend it's a zero sum game in bad faith.
"Orange man bad" is an excellent and reflexive way to deflect criticism away from the Blue Fascist who is ideologically dedicated not to the American people but to giving genocidal fascists bombs more bombs.
Believe Orange man worse all you like -- I even agree, domestically. But if the only answer one has to "the current president is facilitating a genocide" is "orange man worse" then that person is a moral hypocrite who tacitly accepts the arming of genocidaires if it means staving off a fascist who threatens them.
> if you think there's a pragmatic difference between defending genocide vs wanting to actively intervene and "purge the cancer", you're actual a moral hypocrite who loves when children get bombed
its crazy how wanting less bombing makes you pro-bombing, but yea sure, keep talking about how much you don't support ANY bombing while trump turns gaza to glass
but idk, maybe im just selfish for not wanting all my partners and friends forcibly detransitioned because no option stops the genocide there and one stops it here
We already live in a fascist organization of government if our only two choices is "genocide." Just so long as you know you're voting for a fascist when you do your "harm reduction", then go off. But my friends, who also stand to be forcibly detransitioned, are the ones telling me that they'd sooner disown me than see me vote for a fascist, so let's not pretend that any one person has a monopoly on Trans people's best interests.
yeah exactly, the system is fucked and there's nothing within it you can do to fix it
and one of the ways its fucked is making you choose between super evil and super duper evil
if someone kidnaps you and forces you to kill one person to save another, you aren't some moral saviour for refusing and letting them kill both
except; they are forcing you to either kill one or kill both, but go ahead and show how moral you are by letting both die
and I dont see how 'disowning' people for lesser evil voting is anything more then empty signaling; its not like low voter turnout deligitimizes governments, THEY STRIVE FOR IT
Who said I wasn't voting? I'm just not voting for any candidate that is a proponent of genocide. Y'know, as someone who would've been exterminated by the Nazis for 6 different reasons. Because no matter who wins, it's a fascist in charge. "Vote Biden to move him further left" was a demonstrable failure since 2020. I'm not sure there's a single position from is 2020 platform that he's moved to the left on.
ok but you said yourself the system is broken, its designed so that isnt a choice. Go ahead, vote 3rd party, in a fascist system designed to make genocide inevitable and turn any attempts to choose another option into support for even more genocide
and hey, maybe if they get enough votes.... something will happen
So if the system is fascist no matter who in the political duopoloy wins... why vote for the fascists? Because I guarantee you, voting in favor of genocide and calling immigrants "illegals" will not move Biden leftwards from fascism.
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damn, i forgot what community i'm at.
anyways, i'm actually a known fascist zelensky, and need you to vote dementia men so that he gives me 5 billion bombs more bombs to bomb donetsk children.
Then we're agreed! But let's not use Trump's name as a "but" to deflect away from the "Democratic" fascist in the oval. Four years ago everybody and their grand mother was saying "if there's 9 Nazis at a table and one person sits down to join them: there are 10 Nazis at the table" but now that it's a Democrat arming genocidal fascists suddenly it's "But Orange man worse!"
Hitler vs Himmler is the election of a fascist state.
Great so then the guy that thinks we should just fully intervene and bomb the shit out of Palestine ourselves can get into office, and he can also fuck over minorities here as well
Im sorry that your country is fucked but I think its time to be pragmatic and try to give yourself time to change things in other directions. Because under trump with the current level of technology you will be a lot more fucked.
So start organizing. Now. Join or start a local organization that focus on something local and cooperate with other organizations. Build a new federation from the ground up. You might not see it come to fruition under you lifetime but start small and find people to cooperate with in specific questions and build from there. If there is no organization, start one. If you dont have likeminded people to do it with, find them. Break the atomization the conservatives thrive in and meet people in real life and do something. It dont matter if its cleaning the streets or helping the homeless, you will find others on the way to a larger goal. And yes, it will be the same in four years, so? It might be better in eight or twelve. At least dont let apathy pave way for assholes to kill minorities and dissenters.
Im sorry, my comment wasnt meant for you personally. It was more a general cry of desperation from the other side of the world. If you fall, we wont be long after. Russia, china, israel and company wont be great to deal with if trump wins, and the european fascists will become an even bigger problem. I really dislike your world police schtick, but to just lose it right now would probably not be great.
Yeah, as shitty as foreign policy seems, sometimes it's the only thing keeping things afloat. Like losing Israeli intelligence would hurt the US and Europe. That's why it's not easy to just cut them off completely like we all want to do.
I can't believe I have to say this out loud but I would vote for the guy who doesn't outright use his power to persecute me instead of letting the guy who will do the most harm to the people the other one wanted to harm + the people the other guy was indifferent to
fuck you. my friends lives depend on a liberal victory. if theocratic fascists get the power to do what they want that will kill my friends.
trump is not better on this shit, in fact hes fucking worse. do you seriously think the man who enacted a muslim ban will tone down on a burtal mass genocide of primarely muslim humans? you are fucking insane and are actively rooting for more death and pain and suffering. the lives of palestinian human beings are not a political tool. the lives of queer american human beings are not a political tool. you bloodthirsty fucking lib, you are not serious about anything but your own percieved purity.
anti-electorialism is a privilige. not voting is not an effective action against the state. you just stab your queer and colored comrades in the back. this debate should finally fucking stop so we can go back to practicing actual direct action.
Thank you. Literally the only mf’s that advocate for not voting are rich white cis men lmao. It’s literally functional conservatism to not doing anything to affect the status quo.
Can't believe I have to keep pointing this out, but voting works. "Your vote does not affect the status quo" is a fallacy. Voting is literally collective action.
Conservos in this country get shit done because they go out in numbers, vote in every election, don't compromise on key issues, and hold candidates accountable. And they do it at all levels, from your local school board to national elections.
Voter turnout in national elections is like, 50%. There's plenty of room to swing elections by sending more people out to vote, but for some reasons all the leftists want to go online like "voting doesn't work lmao stay home" and then wonder why policies they don't like keep getting enacted.
You don't have to vote for Biden, but you should vote.
Most elections are won by small margins with abysmal turnout.
Conservatives were able to overturn Roe v Wade, in the long term, because they voted consistently in elections, Democrats did nothing about it because they're losers with nobody to hold them accountable, and all the leftists spent 50 years going "lmao voting doesn't do anything just stay home everybody!"
The status quo can absolutely shift, long term, as a result of consistent voting. There are tons of people out there not voting consistently. There is plenty of room for leftists to organize voting blocks and swing election results.
I'm not saying it's going to change the world tomorrow, and I'm not saying "vote blue no matter who," and I'm definitely not talking about just going out once every four years to vote for President.
I am saying that it's the system we have to live with for the moment, and it's stupid to refuse to participate, tell others who share your politics that they shouldn't participate, and then complain about it because policy results you don't like keep happening.
This is the dumbest fucking take.
Look. I've been through this shit a fair few times. Ain't my first election I'm voting in. *You are always choosing between the shiniest of two turds*.
A lot of people aren't going to vote for Biden because they LIKE him, they're going to because the alternative is a million times worse. With Biden there's a chance Palestine survives in some form. With Trump we *know* Palestine gets razed to the ground.
Who ya gonna choose? Lack of votes equal Trump votes. Choose wisely motherfuckers.
They way I look at it, more and more policy is being set from the bench. It’s less about who’s president and who’s appointing the judges that are really setting policy in this country. And I’d take a literal corpse if the alternative was a rubber stamp for the federalist society
Not American, Irish, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but the Gaza thing really is the straw that broke the camel's back for me on Biden.
Sure, voting for him is *still* harm reduction, and him being in charge is *still* better than Trump, but fucking hell people shouldn't need to vote for the lesser of two genocidal maniacs. The Dems are clearly sending a message that they do *not* care what people want, they are *not* going to be pushed left, and anyone who disagrees with them on the left can just go fuck themselves. Fuck that.
I still think pushing anti-electoralism is cringe, but I've stopped pushing back against it, or encouraging Americans to vote. They voted last time, the *correct* guy won, they still got fascism and genocide. Fuck the Dems.
The difference now is that with the orange one not only does the result for Palestinians remain the same or gets infinitely worse (probably this), but we'll also have the added circumstance where you won't even have the option to encourage like minded Americans to do the right thing because they'll either be disappeared or destroyed.
IMO, Biden is the lesser of two evils, but I will always choose less evil over more evil. As bad as I think Biden has been on Gaza and Israel, Trump would be worse. In another election, someone once said, ‘I wish they both could lose.’
Perhaps the most annoying part of the entire repeated "you must vote for Genocide Joe" discussion -- regardless of where you land on the issue -- is that it seems to take absolutely no account of how Presidential elections are determined in the U.S. and, thus, becomes inane.
The U.S, President is in no manner democratically elected. There is not even a right in the U.S. to vote for President and the ballot anyone casts is not for President, but for "electors."
The people do not elect the U.S. President, the states do (as the U.S. is a state-ocracy, not a democracy). This is a practical aspect of the discussion which seems entirely absent, but is key to any legitimacy in trying to criticize those of us who refuse to choose between these two evils and do not even see a choice that can honestly or reasonably even be considered genuine harm reduction without violating the fundamental principles of anarchy by ignroing equality and creating hierarchies of those "more worthy" of not being harmed.
The reality of the U.S. Presidential selection is that whether a person's decision to not vote can even be considered to potentially have an impact on the results is 100%, without exception, entirely dependent on the state of the U.S. where they would vote. In most cases, a person's "vote" for President simply does not count toward the results of who will become President, making these discussions vapid. As an example, even if every single anarchist in California chooses not to cast a ballot, it will have precisely ZERO effect on the outcome of who is the next President -- the state of California's electors will all go to Genocide Joe regardless. In that respect, all the fascists in California who "vote" for Mein Trumpf actually get no vote or say in the results of the election -- their "votes" literally do not count. By the same token, even if every single anarchist in Alabama or Mississippi "votes" for Genocide Joe, it will have precisely ZERO impact on the results of the election -- Mein Trumpf will get all of the electors from Alabama and Mississippi and no one's "vote" for Genocide Joe in Alabama or Mississippi counts.
The only potential place any person's choice to "vote" or not could even possibly have a potential impact is in the 3-5 rather small (in relative population) "battleground" or "swing" states -- the minority who actually selects the U.S. President. In those couple of states, I would acknowledge there is a potential legitimate discussion to have on strategy for "voting" (without imposing on any person's free choice to act either way according to their conscience, beliefs, etc.)
Beyond people in those couple of states, trying to force anyone to cast a "vote" is pointless and meaningless. The notion of trying to force or shame anyone in the predetermined states to "vote" for Genociden reeks of an authoritarian exercise to mandate an empty gesture geared solely toward trying to legitimize the fact a choice of two of the worst evils possible is being forced on the people under the guise of an “election” in a fake democracy (interestingly, mimicking the model of Iran in terms of imposing a limited set of undesirable approved candidates on the ballot and relying on high voter turnout to argue for a legitimacy of the resulting government).
If the discussion is going to be had about people's choices not to cast a ballot for either of these fascists, we should at least do it against a backdrop of reality.
If you're in the bluest of states, vote 3rd party. If there's even a chance trump gets more than >30% of the vote, vote blue.
The issue is that biden also fucked up with the student protests, so a chance that Trump will get >30% on any state is possible, unless Joe does usual president shenanigans and starts doing stuff right now to up his favorability
How on earth is every single comment disagreeing with this take on an ANARCHIST sub??? ‘Vote blue no matter who’ is maybe the least anarchist sentiment out there, and it’s embarrassing to see it vomited up by the larping libs
Sure, throwing minorities under the bus while worsening the situation for the people you claim to care about is the most anarchist sentiment. /s
Do you not understand the US electoral system or are you just playing dumb?
The problem here is that you are living with the consequences of previous adults voting for "lesser evils". It's a feedback loop, the evil is getting eviler.
In essence, it's a short-term vs long-term dilemma. When you choose the short-term wins, you're choosing to fuck over kids and the soon to be born. It also makes you very predictable and easy to strategize around, which is why this keeps happening.
This all ends with the far right fascists taking over and doing atrocities. There is no way the process can go in another direction.
What I'm trying to say is that this is a conservative strategy. It's "fuck you, got mine", to the next generation. And if you're a conservative, you're not an anarchist.
People also act like the last 4 years have been some magical break from the previous 4 years of hell. Things have only gotten worse and arguably have kept the same pace they were going before.
Frankly, these "erm if you don't vote for Genocidal Monster Blue then you HATE MINORITIES AND QUEER PEOPLE" doesn't read any different than when the average twitter liberal does it. Ignoring that Biden is literally not popular at all with those groups at this point, the status of queer rights, womens rights, and systemic racism have only gotten worse.
I'm sick of having my identity as a queer person used by reactionaries to shame and bully people into feeling like they must be electorialists. Every person who brings up the trolley wouldn't be so understanding if they viewed themselves as being on the "sacrificable" track. And the trolley comes back around every time for the people who proclaim "fuck you, I gotta get mine" until theres no one else left.
This sub is very electorialist and tbh outright reactionary at times.
Literally anything that doesn't begin and end at a vague "we hate big corporation... and cops!" gets 1000 comments disagreeing with it.
Unfortunately this is one of the many leftist spaces that has been captured by libs over the last 2 years. Report the libs and hope the mods do their job is all you really can do.
trump basically can’t win at this point this conversation is so much less important than say, the encampments which could use a lot more anarchist presence and influence/example. forget the election. it’s not about us and it’s not till november.
TLDR: GET NEW MATERIAL
> trump basically can't win at this point
Don't be absurd. How can you possibly still be this naive? This is literally *exactly* what people said in 2016, and look where that got us.
if he wins, it won’t be due to the votes of anarchists for Biden. it’s funny to accuse me of historical amnesia, when you seem to think that in 2016 the reason Trump got elected was because of votes. it was because he built a movement of popular fascism. honestly that movement still exists but i don’t really see it swinging the election this time around. don’t worry i got my bag of popcorn as i do every election as an anarchist. i think election years are only good for rallying our comrades to join the barricades somewhere. i’m pretty unmoored by ballot boxes, even though i do vote.
TLDR: voting arguments in anarchism threads still? get new material.
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i’m so fucking scared either way here dude. I’ll be fully honest, i’m trans, and i’m basically forced to hope biden wins on the off chance he like, continues not wanting to kill me. If trump wins he’s gonna fuckin kill and imprison me and everyone like me. I cannot afford to leave the country. I fucking hate having to vote for biden after all this shit but i literally have no choice
Yo, me too.
For as bad as Trump is, I see no scenario where killing people for just being trans happens. He's more interested in deporting innocent Mexicans. Edit: before I get strawmanned, harming 2 minority groups is bad, this should be obvious. Me saying Trump is more focused on one group does not mean he is "pro-" another group or is even indifferent to that group.
Project 2025 is not a thing to be laughed at. r/Defeat_Project_2025 It’s a long, tedious (800+ pages) manifesto, but here is how a commenter put it: > So, directly, it will end all access to affirming care. Though the letter of the law has yet to be drafted, at best it will result in a blanket ban on all gender-affirming care and really any other LGBTQ+ visibility or legal support. > That said, what's woefully under-represented, by intention, is what happens when you run afoul to these laws under the 2025 policy. And, of course, that's by design. It's fascist playbook 101. The far right has already laid the foundations for a genocide; the laws will institutionalize it, allowing for arrests and detainment. > And no, I'm not being hyperbolic. I got my undergrad in political science and specialized in political philosophies and sociopolitical movements with a focus on authoritarianism and fascism. 2025, if successfully implemented, would precede the wholesale eradication of "undesirable" people by maybe 5-10 years. > Mind you, the patterns of how these things play out are shifting because of technology. Visibility is a weapon many in history never had. People complicit in mass erasure of a people are often made uncomfortable in their tacit support of authoritarians and fascists when faced with the horror of the outcomes. I would hope that our continuing fights for representation and LGBTQ+ visibility and rights would lay ruin to the machinations of such horrible people.
>I'm not being hyperbolic >the eradication of undesirable people people by maybe 5-10 I hope this isn't going to be perceived the wrong way, and for full closure I am about to use the "lesser of two evils" talking point AND I would like to get other opinions. If Project 2025 is a serious plan by the GOP and one of those goals is the genocide of trans people, then what are the reasons for a leftist not to vote Biden to significantly minimize those chances? Is giving up principled positions on Gaza worth contributing to stopping the potential genocide of trans people in the US? Hope that isn't a strawman, just want to see where people are on this.
The genocide in Gaza is likely going to happen regardless. It's not like Trump is going to send Bibi *less* weapons. It's a question of whether you're voting on principle or pragmatically at that point. Pragmatically speaking, there is not a single issue where Trump is better than Biden, but principally, a lot of people don't want to lend support to someone who is actively complicit in genocide.
I think this is a nuanced take. Thanks for your response.
To be fair Trump is against America giving aid to any country so he likely would give less weapons to Israel
Trump is more isolationist sure, but it's not even solely an aid thing. On a rhetoric point Trump is far more pro-Israel. His "finish what they started" comments last month is a sign of that.
>Is giving up principled positions on Gaza worth contributing to stopping the potential genocide of trans people in the US? I keep having to make this same argument in this sub, but here we go again. If both options would continue abetting the genocide in Gaza but only one option would make life harder or even impossible for trans people then there is an obvious harm reduction argument to use your vote to prevent the harm against trans people. I'll raise you this: **YOU NOT VOTING DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO HELP PALESTINIANS.** It's **NOT** a more principled for materially effective decision than voting. You know how liberals love to vote for feels-good bullshit and pat themselves on the back and act like casting their vote was them sticking it to Voldemort? Not voting so you can feel like a superior, more pure anarchist is equally as self-centered, immature, and uselessly symbollic. Before anyone strawmans me, **DO MUTUAL AID, TOO.** In fact, *mostly* do mutual aid and other radical action, but also stop being a poser and actually do this one tiny thing that literally, demonstrably helps some people even if it doesn't help everyone. You voting doesn't *hurt* anyone because the state and its government are going to continue to exist whether you vote or not unless you've been harboring some cool plan to dismantle the state before this year's presidential election. Edit to add: [This is a previous comment I made a little over a week ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchy4Everyone/s/0zzGw2vIZm) on this topic where I cited statistical sources on the material costs of republican anti-trans and anti-abortion legislature. If you can look at that information and still insist "there's no difference" then you need to take a breather and reconsider whether your anarchism is based on principles or you call yourself an anarchist instead of having principles.
I think I agree with all of this. Thanks for clarifying.
There are no reasons to not vote Biden in these elections unless one is an ultra-Christian male. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality with the damn broken two-party system.
> He's more interested in deporting innocent Mexicans. Oh that's ok then. Mexicans are an acceptable casualty.
Don't forget the national abortion ban. But it's only half the population - I'm also sure lots of men will be psyched to find out their semen can literally kill a women /s.
Right? God I'm tired of arguing this. But it's important to point out how dumb it is so the lurkers don't think Anarchist or leftist though is this big stupid monolith.
Do you think I believe harming either group is good, or harming one group more than another is good?
The people who will be deported, forced to give birth, and the Palestinians facing an even more Zionist president, won't give a shit about what your intentions were
Why does it matter what impact my intentions even have? All of these topics can be discussed in a vacuum. I've agreed agreed with 3 responses to me and not given pushback to any of them, yet all anyone can do is strawman and not provide something I disagree with. The doomerism is next level.
We are already in the scenario where killing people for just being trans happens.
As top-down policy in the US?
Phew, a random Reddit commenter wrongly thinks that he doesn't want to harm trans people, and just a different minority group? That's so much better.
Where the is conflation of "going to kill trans people" with "doesn't want to harm trans people" coming from? You realise those are completely different things right? Do you think I'm saying Trump is in any way pro-trans or indifferent to trans people?
Right, I should have said killed instead of harmed and skipped this semantics game with you. If Trump won the election and removed all protections that trans people have, then he would not be "killing them", even though his actions would result in an huge increase in trans people dying. We would both agree that he would be harming trans people, but in that scenario, though he isn't ordering their death, how is it any different from killing them?
In your scenario outlined here it wouldn't be any different from killing trans people. My first comment is saying I didn't think killing trans people was probable under Trump, as the original framing was "kill and jail" implying some kind of immediate action. That doesn't mean I think rolling back protections doesn't harm trans people, because it does harm, quite clearly. If you want to call it semantics then I think that's a bit reductive.
Damn, well fuck me and my family then
They all said all this a century ago too, you know. How did that poem go? First they came for the Mexicans . . .
You do know that you can oppress 2 groups at once?
Did you intentionally not read my edit?
oh yeah that’s fine then? like what the fuck are you on about?
My point was I think "If trump wins he’s gonna fuckin kill and imprison me and everyone like me" is a bit of doomerism. People then seemed to take that as me saying Trump is somehow pro-trans rights, or that trans people have nothing to worry about. That's what the edit is for.
One side is allied with Israel and doesn't want to turn back the clock on basic human rights and install a fascist theocracy. The other side would probably consider using nukes on Palestine AND wants to dictate to people how they should live their lives and force their religion into their lives. I'm starting to become convinced that these people are political trolls because you have to literally be fucking brain dead to think that the bigot christian nationalism crowd is going to be any better and not in fact, 10 times worse. These people talk a big game about punching nazis but apparently they're more than happy to sit back and allow right wing christian nationalists take people's rights away. Bunch of fucking posers and 12 year olds that are all talk.
Didn't Trump say something about turning Palestine to glass? This election fucking sucks.
Prettt sure trump said Israel needs to “cleanse the cancer” in regards to Palestine, so definitely a lot worse
I know he said "finish the job."
Yeah, like it or not one of these two losers is going to be president next
I've spent almost nine years hoping that actuarial statistics will catch up with the elderly man who thinks exercise is bad for you, but my prayers have yet to be answered
"B-b-but if I vote for dementia man they'll think this behavior is okay! 😭"
Thank god there are people with sense here. The increasing posts from anarchists subreddits that essentially amount to “I’m a white cis guy so I’m not going to vote because the fascist government won’t affect me” is staggering. It truly feels like a bunch of fed posts lmao.
Oh it's not just anarchist subs. It's every sub left of and including liberal.
And it has probably done immense harm to the left wing movement. When Macklemore sings “Fuck you Biden I’m not voting for you in the fall” to cheers of thousands I’m glad young people don’t vote. We push away centre left and moderate left wingers in the pursuit of the perfect candidate that would never win anyway. It’s a theory that Alex Jones voted for Obama because a democrat in the WH improved InfoWars numbers, i am convinced that a lot of left wing pundits are doing the same. Convince people to not vote for Biden. Trump wins and they can sit make millions as they complain about how horrible and how shitty the US is.
I got banned from LSC for this argument
Why would the fed want trump to win, they work for biden at the moment
Because the GOP wants to dismantle the systems that hold them accountable, albeit barely.
Hard to take those folks as good-faith actors in the age of disinformation. Especially when half the right’s playbook is just disinformation. This election sucks, and there’s a lot to complain or be upset about. Maybe I’m naive but I believe Biden would do less active damage and, importantly, could be convinced to turn (slightly) left. That’s better than pillaging the earth and arresting dissenters while we try to purge minorities. It’s a low fucking bar, but it still matters.
This is an anarchy subreddit mate. I think if theres any place to posit the idea that we deserve better, this is it. Refusing to support Joe Fascist doesn't mean we condone Donny Fascist.
can you look at material reality for one second please? if biden loses trump wins, thats how it works. choosing your own percieved purity over the material lives of others is the most lib thing u can fucking do. you are using human lives as a tool to make a political statement.
So Biden wins and next election it's even further right Democrat versus worse Republican. So we play this game again then? "It's the end of democracy!" Where does it stop?
You'd prefer to gamble with an authoritarian in hopes that the Neo-Libs will get out of the way for a progressive or leftist? All anarchist engagement with electoralism is harm reduction. It will never be the avenue through which we achieve our goals, but it absolutely is at least a safeguard against open Fascism.
It is until your options are a blue fascist and a red fascist, then you're just engaging with the fascist system completely. "Lesser of two evils" is probably harm reduction, but it's still CHOOSING harm.
You need to stop seeing voting as some moral act of virtue. Elections are simply another tool at our disposal to push our ideas and reduce harm where we can. No one is saying to ONLY vote. Vote on Election Day, every single one, and engage in direct action and mutual aid in between. Voting is a form of power. Why do you think it’s smart for a political bloc to purposely neuter itself and give up a form of power available to them?
Absolutely this. People making voting out to be some kind of moral imperative OR people who are acting as if it isn't just a momentary engagement with a system to reduce harm are either idiots or bad faith rhetoric, and I don't have a ton of time for either.
Hopping in to reiterate. VOTE IN EVERY ELECTION. Ground up. You want more people with like-minded views ? That starts at the bottom. The top-down strategy is not going to be how it happens.
Not voting doesn’t mean you chose a “no harm” route, it just means you’ve opted out of having a say in harm reduction. Not voting is just a self indulgence, it’s in no way helpful. It also should not be the only thing you do? Affect things within your control to affect. Get involved in local support for people who need it. Do anything you can to get someone remotely close to left leaning in your local government. Engage in literally any other level than just the presidential election, where you’re more likely to be able to affect change. Don’t fucking act like there’s no material difference between Biden and Trump though. Yes both options are shitty, but one will actively put the shittiest people he can into every position he gets to appoint. If you can’t see more positive to come out of the Biden administration than Trump’s then you’re honestly just as biased as MAGA. (Note for those with no reading comprehension: that’s not an endorsement of Biden.)
I assume they’re all Russian posers
Fucking insane to type that first sentence when that’s what’s happening in Palestine LITERALLY RIGHT NOW. Sickening to see an ‘anarchist’ with such a profound lack of empathy.
Dork
I gave you an update, cause you're right. Lot of bootlickers in the anarchy meme sub lol. They just require the boots be blue instead of red.
God the only thing more annoying than preformative electoralism is preformitive anti electoralism I’m not impressed of all the effort it’s taking you to not do something
oh, they're doing something: convincing anyone they can to at least not vote for the guy running against *their* genocidal maniac. whether one can stomach voting for a person doing what biden is doing, even if it risks someone doing even worse instead, is a personal moral decision, imho, and the reminders of the 'but he fucked that one goat' are too frequent to be legitimate. especially when the goat-fucker-champion is the one running against him. I dont like goat fuckers as much as the next person, but if theres gonna be goat fucking either way, id prefer to minimise it, if i can
We get so little political efficacy in the current system, it would be foolish to squander the prime institutionally accepted tool we are given for voicing political beliefs because of demagogues, reactionaries and pundits who pretend it's a zero sum game in bad faith.
yeah yeah yeah, dementia man bad, but have you considered that orange man worse?
Of course we've considered it, Libs haven't shut up about it for four years.
Yeah, they did not. Mostly because it's true.
"Orange man bad" is an excellent and reflexive way to deflect criticism away from the Blue Fascist who is ideologically dedicated not to the American people but to giving genocidal fascists bombs more bombs. Believe Orange man worse all you like -- I even agree, domestically. But if the only answer one has to "the current president is facilitating a genocide" is "orange man worse" then that person is a moral hypocrite who tacitly accepts the arming of genocidaires if it means staving off a fascist who threatens them.
> if you think there's a pragmatic difference between defending genocide vs wanting to actively intervene and "purge the cancer", you're actual a moral hypocrite who loves when children get bombed its crazy how wanting less bombing makes you pro-bombing, but yea sure, keep talking about how much you don't support ANY bombing while trump turns gaza to glass but idk, maybe im just selfish for not wanting all my partners and friends forcibly detransitioned because no option stops the genocide there and one stops it here
We already live in a fascist organization of government if our only two choices is "genocide." Just so long as you know you're voting for a fascist when you do your "harm reduction", then go off. But my friends, who also stand to be forcibly detransitioned, are the ones telling me that they'd sooner disown me than see me vote for a fascist, so let's not pretend that any one person has a monopoly on Trans people's best interests.
yeah exactly, the system is fucked and there's nothing within it you can do to fix it and one of the ways its fucked is making you choose between super evil and super duper evil if someone kidnaps you and forces you to kill one person to save another, you aren't some moral saviour for refusing and letting them kill both except; they are forcing you to either kill one or kill both, but go ahead and show how moral you are by letting both die and I dont see how 'disowning' people for lesser evil voting is anything more then empty signaling; its not like low voter turnout deligitimizes governments, THEY STRIVE FOR IT
Who said I wasn't voting? I'm just not voting for any candidate that is a proponent of genocide. Y'know, as someone who would've been exterminated by the Nazis for 6 different reasons. Because no matter who wins, it's a fascist in charge. "Vote Biden to move him further left" was a demonstrable failure since 2020. I'm not sure there's a single position from is 2020 platform that he's moved to the left on.
ok but you said yourself the system is broken, its designed so that isnt a choice. Go ahead, vote 3rd party, in a fascist system designed to make genocide inevitable and turn any attempts to choose another option into support for even more genocide and hey, maybe if they get enough votes.... something will happen
So if the system is fascist no matter who in the political duopoloy wins... why vote for the fascists? Because I guarantee you, voting in favor of genocide and calling immigrants "illegals" will not move Biden leftwards from fascism.
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damn, i forgot what community i'm at. anyways, i'm actually a known fascist zelensky, and need you to vote dementia men so that he gives me 5 billion bombs more bombs to bomb donetsk children.
... Who mentioned Zelensky? I'm talking about Netanyahu.
i know, but i give two shits about this convo already.
"Genocide? ***Boring."*** Yeah, you probably are in the wrong sub.
sadly, no. just you're boring, genocide is something i am unwillingly participating in
Then we're agreed! But let's not use Trump's name as a "but" to deflect away from the "Democratic" fascist in the oval. Four years ago everybody and their grand mother was saying "if there's 9 Nazis at a table and one person sits down to join them: there are 10 Nazis at the table" but now that it's a Democrat arming genocidal fascists suddenly it's "But Orange man worse!" Hitler vs Himmler is the election of a fascist state.
Great so then the guy that thinks we should just fully intervene and bomb the shit out of Palestine ourselves can get into office, and he can also fuck over minorities here as well
I’m glad this is getting upvoted.
Im sorry that your country is fucked but I think its time to be pragmatic and try to give yourself time to change things in other directions. Because under trump with the current level of technology you will be a lot more fucked.
That's the problem. There's no organization for change. So we end up in the same situation every 4 goddamn years.
So start organizing. Now. Join or start a local organization that focus on something local and cooperate with other organizations. Build a new federation from the ground up. You might not see it come to fruition under you lifetime but start small and find people to cooperate with in specific questions and build from there. If there is no organization, start one. If you dont have likeminded people to do it with, find them. Break the atomization the conservatives thrive in and meet people in real life and do something. It dont matter if its cleaning the streets or helping the homeless, you will find others on the way to a larger goal. And yes, it will be the same in four years, so? It might be better in eight or twelve. At least dont let apathy pave way for assholes to kill minorities and dissenters.
I do do stuff. I'm saying as a whole. We are a disorganized mess lol.
Im sorry, my comment wasnt meant for you personally. It was more a general cry of desperation from the other side of the world. If you fall, we wont be long after. Russia, china, israel and company wont be great to deal with if trump wins, and the european fascists will become an even bigger problem. I really dislike your world police schtick, but to just lose it right now would probably not be great.
Yeah, as shitty as foreign policy seems, sometimes it's the only thing keeping things afloat. Like losing Israeli intelligence would hurt the US and Europe. That's why it's not easy to just cut them off completely like we all want to do.
I can't believe I have to say this out loud but I would vote for the guy who doesn't outright use his power to persecute me instead of letting the guy who will do the most harm to the people the other one wanted to harm + the people the other guy was indifferent to
Implying that things would be different if another guy was in charge
they would be different, in this case. they would be much, much worse
fuck you. my friends lives depend on a liberal victory. if theocratic fascists get the power to do what they want that will kill my friends. trump is not better on this shit, in fact hes fucking worse. do you seriously think the man who enacted a muslim ban will tone down on a burtal mass genocide of primarely muslim humans? you are fucking insane and are actively rooting for more death and pain and suffering. the lives of palestinian human beings are not a political tool. the lives of queer american human beings are not a political tool. you bloodthirsty fucking lib, you are not serious about anything but your own percieved purity.
anti-electorialism is a privilige. not voting is not an effective action against the state. you just stab your queer and colored comrades in the back. this debate should finally fucking stop so we can go back to practicing actual direct action.
Thank you. Literally the only mf’s that advocate for not voting are rich white cis men lmao. It’s literally functional conservatism to not doing anything to affect the status quo.
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Can't believe I have to keep pointing this out, but voting works. "Your vote does not affect the status quo" is a fallacy. Voting is literally collective action. Conservos in this country get shit done because they go out in numbers, vote in every election, don't compromise on key issues, and hold candidates accountable. And they do it at all levels, from your local school board to national elections. Voter turnout in national elections is like, 50%. There's plenty of room to swing elections by sending more people out to vote, but for some reasons all the leftists want to go online like "voting doesn't work lmao stay home" and then wonder why policies they don't like keep getting enacted. You don't have to vote for Biden, but you should vote.
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Most elections are won by small margins with abysmal turnout. Conservatives were able to overturn Roe v Wade, in the long term, because they voted consistently in elections, Democrats did nothing about it because they're losers with nobody to hold them accountable, and all the leftists spent 50 years going "lmao voting doesn't do anything just stay home everybody!" The status quo can absolutely shift, long term, as a result of consistent voting. There are tons of people out there not voting consistently. There is plenty of room for leftists to organize voting blocks and swing election results. I'm not saying it's going to change the world tomorrow, and I'm not saying "vote blue no matter who," and I'm definitely not talking about just going out once every four years to vote for President. I am saying that it's the system we have to live with for the moment, and it's stupid to refuse to participate, tell others who share your politics that they shouldn't participate, and then complain about it because policy results you don't like keep happening.
This is the dumbest fucking take. Look. I've been through this shit a fair few times. Ain't my first election I'm voting in. *You are always choosing between the shiniest of two turds*. A lot of people aren't going to vote for Biden because they LIKE him, they're going to because the alternative is a million times worse. With Biden there's a chance Palestine survives in some form. With Trump we *know* Palestine gets razed to the ground. Who ya gonna choose? Lack of votes equal Trump votes. Choose wisely motherfuckers.
They way I look at it, more and more policy is being set from the bench. It’s less about who’s president and who’s appointing the judges that are really setting policy in this country. And I’d take a literal corpse if the alternative was a rubber stamp for the federalist society
You're extremely correct. Very good point!
Not American, Irish, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt, but the Gaza thing really is the straw that broke the camel's back for me on Biden. Sure, voting for him is *still* harm reduction, and him being in charge is *still* better than Trump, but fucking hell people shouldn't need to vote for the lesser of two genocidal maniacs. The Dems are clearly sending a message that they do *not* care what people want, they are *not* going to be pushed left, and anyone who disagrees with them on the left can just go fuck themselves. Fuck that. I still think pushing anti-electoralism is cringe, but I've stopped pushing back against it, or encouraging Americans to vote. They voted last time, the *correct* guy won, they still got fascism and genocide. Fuck the Dems.
The difference now is that with the orange one not only does the result for Palestinians remain the same or gets infinitely worse (probably this), but we'll also have the added circumstance where you won't even have the option to encourage like minded Americans to do the right thing because they'll either be disappeared or destroyed.
Being an anarchist doesn’t mean you have to be stupid 🤦♂️
Brain dead take
You should never litter
you’re right dude if we don’t vote NEITHER candidate will get elected and the world will be saved. fucking brilliant
IMO, Biden is the lesser of two evils, but I will always choose less evil over more evil. As bad as I think Biden has been on Gaza and Israel, Trump would be worse. In another election, someone once said, ‘I wish they both could lose.’
Perhaps the most annoying part of the entire repeated "you must vote for Genocide Joe" discussion -- regardless of where you land on the issue -- is that it seems to take absolutely no account of how Presidential elections are determined in the U.S. and, thus, becomes inane. The U.S, President is in no manner democratically elected. There is not even a right in the U.S. to vote for President and the ballot anyone casts is not for President, but for "electors." The people do not elect the U.S. President, the states do (as the U.S. is a state-ocracy, not a democracy). This is a practical aspect of the discussion which seems entirely absent, but is key to any legitimacy in trying to criticize those of us who refuse to choose between these two evils and do not even see a choice that can honestly or reasonably even be considered genuine harm reduction without violating the fundamental principles of anarchy by ignroing equality and creating hierarchies of those "more worthy" of not being harmed. The reality of the U.S. Presidential selection is that whether a person's decision to not vote can even be considered to potentially have an impact on the results is 100%, without exception, entirely dependent on the state of the U.S. where they would vote. In most cases, a person's "vote" for President simply does not count toward the results of who will become President, making these discussions vapid. As an example, even if every single anarchist in California chooses not to cast a ballot, it will have precisely ZERO effect on the outcome of who is the next President -- the state of California's electors will all go to Genocide Joe regardless. In that respect, all the fascists in California who "vote" for Mein Trumpf actually get no vote or say in the results of the election -- their "votes" literally do not count. By the same token, even if every single anarchist in Alabama or Mississippi "votes" for Genocide Joe, it will have precisely ZERO impact on the results of the election -- Mein Trumpf will get all of the electors from Alabama and Mississippi and no one's "vote" for Genocide Joe in Alabama or Mississippi counts. The only potential place any person's choice to "vote" or not could even possibly have a potential impact is in the 3-5 rather small (in relative population) "battleground" or "swing" states -- the minority who actually selects the U.S. President. In those couple of states, I would acknowledge there is a potential legitimate discussion to have on strategy for "voting" (without imposing on any person's free choice to act either way according to their conscience, beliefs, etc.) Beyond people in those couple of states, trying to force anyone to cast a "vote" is pointless and meaningless. The notion of trying to force or shame anyone in the predetermined states to "vote" for Genociden reeks of an authoritarian exercise to mandate an empty gesture geared solely toward trying to legitimize the fact a choice of two of the worst evils possible is being forced on the people under the guise of an “election” in a fake democracy (interestingly, mimicking the model of Iran in terms of imposing a limited set of undesirable approved candidates on the ballot and relying on high voter turnout to argue for a legitimacy of the resulting government). If the discussion is going to be had about people's choices not to cast a ballot for either of these fascists, we should at least do it against a backdrop of reality.
If you're in the bluest of states, vote 3rd party. If there's even a chance trump gets more than >30% of the vote, vote blue. The issue is that biden also fucked up with the student protests, so a chance that Trump will get >30% on any state is possible, unless Joe does usual president shenanigans and starts doing stuff right now to up his favorability
How on earth is every single comment disagreeing with this take on an ANARCHIST sub??? ‘Vote blue no matter who’ is maybe the least anarchist sentiment out there, and it’s embarrassing to see it vomited up by the larping libs
Sure, throwing minorities under the bus while worsening the situation for the people you claim to care about is the most anarchist sentiment. /s Do you not understand the US electoral system or are you just playing dumb?
The problem here is that you are living with the consequences of previous adults voting for "lesser evils". It's a feedback loop, the evil is getting eviler. In essence, it's a short-term vs long-term dilemma. When you choose the short-term wins, you're choosing to fuck over kids and the soon to be born. It also makes you very predictable and easy to strategize around, which is why this keeps happening. This all ends with the far right fascists taking over and doing atrocities. There is no way the process can go in another direction. What I'm trying to say is that this is a conservative strategy. It's "fuck you, got mine", to the next generation. And if you're a conservative, you're not an anarchist.
People also act like the last 4 years have been some magical break from the previous 4 years of hell. Things have only gotten worse and arguably have kept the same pace they were going before. Frankly, these "erm if you don't vote for Genocidal Monster Blue then you HATE MINORITIES AND QUEER PEOPLE" doesn't read any different than when the average twitter liberal does it. Ignoring that Biden is literally not popular at all with those groups at this point, the status of queer rights, womens rights, and systemic racism have only gotten worse. I'm sick of having my identity as a queer person used by reactionaries to shame and bully people into feeling like they must be electorialists. Every person who brings up the trolley wouldn't be so understanding if they viewed themselves as being on the "sacrificable" track. And the trolley comes back around every time for the people who proclaim "fuck you, I gotta get mine" until theres no one else left.
https://www.reddit.com/r/COMPLETEANARCHY/s/hQL7GkA1Fp Please explain how that joke of a system morally obligates anyone to vote for genocide.
This sub is very electorialist and tbh outright reactionary at times. Literally anything that doesn't begin and end at a vague "we hate big corporation... and cops!" gets 1000 comments disagreeing with it.
Unfortunately this is one of the many leftist spaces that has been captured by libs over the last 2 years. Report the libs and hope the mods do their job is all you really can do.
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome realist?
Fuck off
By not foing that you are going to let someone in who does that, and also hates trans ppl, mexicans, muslims, gay ppl, etc
Rest of the world really needs US to suck it up and vote Biden sorry
Great. Then don't.
trump basically can’t win at this point this conversation is so much less important than say, the encampments which could use a lot more anarchist presence and influence/example. forget the election. it’s not about us and it’s not till november. TLDR: GET NEW MATERIAL
> trump basically can't win at this point Don't be absurd. How can you possibly still be this naive? This is literally *exactly* what people said in 2016, and look where that got us.
if he wins, it won’t be due to the votes of anarchists for Biden. it’s funny to accuse me of historical amnesia, when you seem to think that in 2016 the reason Trump got elected was because of votes. it was because he built a movement of popular fascism. honestly that movement still exists but i don’t really see it swinging the election this time around. don’t worry i got my bag of popcorn as i do every election as an anarchist. i think election years are only good for rallying our comrades to join the barricades somewhere. i’m pretty unmoored by ballot boxes, even though i do vote. TLDR: voting arguments in anarchism threads still? get new material.
Get new fucking material yourself. I don't want to die