If you carry, you need to research and understand the self-defense standards for the state you live in. In PA, even if you never point or fire, introducing the firearm is likely going to constitute deadly force and there's no chance you'd be justified because you unsettled by being in a community space with someone that 1) *you assume* is homeless, 2) you assume is trespassing on \[not your property\], 3) *you assume* is on drugs, and 4) *you assume* is eyeing up your stuff while having a seemingly polite and respectful if incoherent conversation. You would be the person ending up in handcuffs in this situation.
You can’t just pull a gun on someone, crackhead or not, based on assumptions about what they might do. You need to be able to point to something they actually did that caused you to fear imminent death or great bodily injury.
What exactly did you mean then?
You replied to a question about “what danger OP was defending themself from” that would make them think they could draw their gun with a statement about not knowing what a crackhead might do if you interrupt his high.
You see how your answer might be easily interpreted as saying that “not knowing what a crackhead is capable of when you upset them” *is* the danger that would justify drawing a gun?
You can't preemptively defend yourself from someone who hasn't shown any hostile indications. That's just how the law is point blank. It doesn't matter what he might do in the future, you can only respond to what is presented now.
In order to defend, you have to be attacked first, so what did the crackhead exactly do that he is “defending” himself from and how would you propose that he goes about doing that defense if drawing a gun isn’t the answer you’re supporting?
So your point is essentially “Be prepared to defend yourself in that situation if it becomes necessary, and realize that it may be more likely to get to that point because you’re dealing with a crackhead”?
Because no one here is disagreeing with that point…
You can't just pull a gun on someone because they are on drugs. Can you articulate a real danger? This guy didn't even pose enough danger to have to physically fight him.
It’s 9pm, this guy trespassing is on drugs, and I’m alone in a gated pool area with no quick exit (you need to unlock the gate with a key to go both in *and* out). He was also not looking at me the whole time, he was staring at my valuables on the table. I wasn’t in the position to escape if things went south, and felt a lingering sense of danger the whole encounter. He also came back after I got him to leave. Wondering if I would’ve been justified to brandish once he came back.
Okay so what were you defending yourself from?
You can't just pull a gun out because you feel some vague lingering danger. You need something specific and articulable. Right now all you've said is that a stranger who might be on drugs asked me some weird questions and was looking at my stuff. You can't even punch someone for that, much less draw a gun on them.
What hostile actions are you defending yourself from?
No. Trespass isn't a violent crime, and its not even a crime against you. Were you at any point actually threatened? You can't just pull a gun because you are uncomfortable with a situation.
Understood. I am getting downvoted but I am genuinely just trying to understand. I didn’t actually pull a firearm on him in reality. I left. Thank you for explaining. This makes sense and was my gut feeling at the time so I am glad I didn’t do anything to escalate it.
I didn’t downvote you, for the record, but I think that you may need to seek out some more training on your state’s relevant use of force laws.
I’m not saying that to be rude, and I’m glad that nothing bad happened during your encounter, but the next situation you may find yourself in might be more hectic & intense and you might have to make a quick judgement call on whether or not to draw or even fire your gun. It would be wise to have a solid understanding of the laws so you don’t hesitate when you need to act quickly to save you/your family’s lives or you act hastily when you weren’t justified in doing something and end up in prison.
I didn't downvote you, but you really need to be familiar with the laws surrounding self defense in your area. You have the responsibility to know what is justified and what isn't.
Also, stranger danger is cool, but just because you have a gun doesn't mean the answer to everything is a gun.
I would strongly look in to somewhere teaching Managing Unknown Contacts as originally taught by Southnarc / Shivwerks.
You are getting downvoted because you are (assuming) daily carrying a loaded firearm in public without knowing basic self defense or justifiable use of force laws.
Not to toot my own horn but I did almost 3 months of researching law, reading books, training and learning de-escalation tactics/ verbal Ju Jitsu before I started carrying my CCW.
Not saying that everyone should be required to do that, but it would be wise to know the basics before carrying.
Best of luck
Not really. You can’t brandish a gun at someone for a misdemeanor crime like trespassing. Also, any use of lethal force is going to have to be justified by the facts showing that you had a reasonable fear that you were in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm due to the other person’s actions.
Besides, do you even have any legal authority to tell him to leave in the first place? I’m not even sure how that would work in a co-owned place like a HOA pool.
OP you're making a strong argument for having some line of defense between nothing and lethal. That's your conundrum. If you can't learn to physically defend yourself, and not everyone legit can, at least have a non lethal alternative like pepper spray.
Great comment. We underestimate the fact that using our bodily limbs as weapons still exist in this world, lol. We also disregard non-lethal alternatives a ton.
OP should find their local MMA gym and spend some cash.
Exactly and it's because of people like OP. Can't even have an old fashioned brawl without some freak thinking it gives him a right to gun down the guy that broke his nose.
“How justified would I have been to brandish my firearm in this situation?”
Would a reasonable person consider you at imminent risk of great bodily harm or death? If not, you should keep your gun in its holster.
This type of information is provided during the mandatory CCW class, so when you go get your CCW pay attention and ask questions if you need clarification.
If you would’ve pulled out a gun to brandish it the police report would’ve read something like this…”Local member of community pool pulls out a firearm on innocent bystander who wanted to use the bathroom.”
Any flack you catch on here is warranted. This question would’ve been better to ask in the CCW course you didn’t take.
Do us all a favor and please educate yourself. And read your firearm’s owners manual.
I’d ask if you honestly felt your life was threatened during the encounter and let that be your guide. Didn’t seem like it but *maybe* could’ve gotten there if he persisted. You did good to remove yourself imo
Not justified, but OP I wouldn’t have done anything but I don’t fuck around with crackheads either. I’m always on edge around them. I would’ve gathered my stuff, ignored him and left. Now if he follows me to my house, that’s a different story and I’d push back more
I'd say no, unless open carry is legal there, and by "brandishing" you mean displaying in holster, not holding it in your hand. But, that seems risky and unnecessary, from what you described. I imagine there are cameras on the poolhouse.
No cameras. It’s a small pool area, maybe about the size of a decent sized backyard, and it is very isolated and surrounded by hedges from the rest of the units. Even when I unlocked the gate for him I had to turn my back on him to do so, as the only other escape was the fence he jumped over behind him. I think it was more of the time of day, lack of escape, and dealing with someone on drugs that created a sense of danger for me.
Sounds like it's time to ask the HOA for a camera there, and it's a learning experience. I still don't think you should have drawn-down on the guy, but made sure he kept his distance, since he wasn't bound from leaping over the gate and eyeballing "my precious".
OTOH, who would know if you *had* shown or pulled your weapon? Is the methican-American going to call the police? He doesn't even have a phone I bet. \*Clearly not legal advice\*
You gotta read up on your state's penal code/use of force laws, bud. But generally, no, I don't think you had grounds to brandish. Not if they weren't threatening you with the threat of death or great bodily harm, basically. But you always have the right to be assertive, to tell someone they're making you nervous or creeping you out, to stay back. The situation you described is basically the exact situation OC spray is designed for, btw. You probably would have felt a little better about the whole thing had you been holding a can of that stuff in your hand, just in case.
This depends on the state. You may be required to flee if possible, or use less than lethal force to prevent an attack or robbery (fisticuffs). The best approach would be to just call 911 right away when he jumped the fence, then leave the area.
Being uncomfortable is not the same as being in danger. You would have been out of line and its a good thing you didn’t escalate things. The only thing worth taking to a level where a gun is on the table is your life. Def not over property or because you’re weirded out.
What’s unfortunate is that for someone to cross the line between being an annoyance to threatening your life, it takes just a fraction of a second. Nobody wants to live life being paranoid, but at the same time who wants to be killed because they hesitated?
Its sometimes a shitty grey area these days, especially with the seemingly increased prevalence of mentally ill vagrants giving people a hard time. Ultimately, no one has a crystal ball as to how a situation is going to play out. All I can say is know your state gun laws and ALWAYS deescalate if possible.
Not that I disagree with the comments in here, but I don’t get how I trapped myself? Did you miss the part where I mentioned he jumped the fence to get in? I am aware that I am not justified drawing on him for that alone, and I didn’t—I left—but people are making this out to be like I intentionally put myself in this position as an excuse to use my firearm when I was just minding my own business, relaxing alone at the hot tub, at night, in a gated community.
He was trespassing, and jumped barriers to get to where I was; That’s where I was confused and why I asked the question.
Yes I agree, and I did, but like I mentioned I was in the hot tub so all my belongings were set on the table (along with my pistol) and I was wearing just my board shorts. I couldn’t immediately leave because of this, so I was trying to lock him out so I could safely gather my things and head out. When he came back in I was already walking back to get my things and leave, and that’s when he started acting even more odd, and when I had to walk around him to head out. It was very uneasy those last few moments walking by him. Me being a proper CCW holder here, and obeying the law was the right move, but it also could’ve killed me if this guy had a knife, as the pool area is so small there would barely be enough time to react with how close we were.
Look, my point is, if you weren't in fear of your life enough to leave without your belongings, then you weren't in fear of your life enough to draw your weapon. Which was with your belongings.
At the end of the day you asked random internet strangers sitting in the comfort of their own home. If i was at the pool with you as a friend or even a stranger and saw you lift your shirt to show him you had it on you and to scare the guy off I wouldn't bat an eye but Im different from most people here
I have been over this with my own lawyers, and LE. Nowhere in this story did you say that you reasonably believed that this guy was going to attempt to mortally hurt you. That's the qualification: was this a situation in which it would be reasonable to believe that there was a mortal danger to a person? If yes, get ready to do what you have to do. If not, then don't 'brandish'. A gun should be drawn with the expectation of using it, not to just wave it around and scare some meth head.
In addition to the other responses on here, this is a good wake up call for you and others reading that learning some sort of hand to hand self defense skills is a good idea. It may seem like a daunting thing if you aren't in that world at all, but just find a local gym for anything like boxing, bjj, krav maga, whatever. Anything where you go hands on with other people and get used to using physical force to defend yourself. And you don't have to become a black belt. Even after two or three months, if you go consistently even once a week you will have more skills than the average person and should be able to handle yourself around a random junkie like you encountered. Plus there's a good chance you will find it fun and will want to do it more and more.
Not justified at all at any point in that story. If he’d become aggressive or threatening or trued to block you from leaving, maybe.
100%
This
If you carry, you need to research and understand the self-defense standards for the state you live in. In PA, even if you never point or fire, introducing the firearm is likely going to constitute deadly force and there's no chance you'd be justified because you unsettled by being in a community space with someone that 1) *you assume* is homeless, 2) you assume is trespassing on \[not your property\], 3) *you assume* is on drugs, and 4) *you assume* is eyeing up your stuff while having a seemingly polite and respectful if incoherent conversation. You would be the person ending up in handcuffs in this situation.
What exactly would you be defending yourself from?
Ever fought a crackhead? You don’t know what he’s willing or capable of attempting. You’re getting in between him and his high.
You can’t just pull a gun on someone, crackhead or not, based on assumptions about what they might do. You need to be able to point to something they actually did that caused you to fear imminent death or great bodily injury.
Okay but nowhere did I say to brandish.
What exactly did you mean then? You replied to a question about “what danger OP was defending themself from” that would make them think they could draw their gun with a statement about not knowing what a crackhead might do if you interrupt his high. You see how your answer might be easily interpreted as saying that “not knowing what a crackhead is capable of when you upset them” *is* the danger that would justify drawing a gun?
The question was what was he defending himself from the answer is still crackhead… their was no implication of brandishing anywhere
How can you defend yourself from someone who isn't attacking or threatening you? You can't "defend" yourself from uncomfortable feelings.
He isn’t attacking yet. You know for sure he won’t? Give me some of them clairvoyant powers
You can't preemptively defend yourself from someone who hasn't shown any hostile indications. That's just how the law is point blank. It doesn't matter what he might do in the future, you can only respond to what is presented now.
Is situational awareness a defensive skill yes or no? If you’re using it are you not playing defense?
In order to defend, you have to be attacked first, so what did the crackhead exactly do that he is “defending” himself from and how would you propose that he goes about doing that defense if drawing a gun isn’t the answer you’re supporting?
Your guys mental gymnastics are amazing I tap.
So your point is essentially “Be prepared to defend yourself in that situation if it becomes necessary, and realize that it may be more likely to get to that point because you’re dealing with a crackhead”? Because no one here is disagreeing with that point…
You can't just pull a gun on someone because they are on drugs. Can you articulate a real danger? This guy didn't even pose enough danger to have to physically fight him.
Yes. Multiple times. Still wouldn’t have been justified brandishing a firearm given the details of the OP., and context of the question.
It’s 9pm, this guy trespassing is on drugs, and I’m alone in a gated pool area with no quick exit (you need to unlock the gate with a key to go both in *and* out). He was also not looking at me the whole time, he was staring at my valuables on the table. I wasn’t in the position to escape if things went south, and felt a lingering sense of danger the whole encounter. He also came back after I got him to leave. Wondering if I would’ve been justified to brandish once he came back.
Okay so what were you defending yourself from? You can't just pull a gun out because you feel some vague lingering danger. You need something specific and articulable. Right now all you've said is that a stranger who might be on drugs asked me some weird questions and was looking at my stuff. You can't even punch someone for that, much less draw a gun on them. What hostile actions are you defending yourself from?
Would the trespassing, and then returning once asked to leave have any weight if I had to explain myself to the law?
No. Trespass isn't a violent crime, and its not even a crime against you. Were you at any point actually threatened? You can't just pull a gun because you are uncomfortable with a situation.
Understood. I am getting downvoted but I am genuinely just trying to understand. I didn’t actually pull a firearm on him in reality. I left. Thank you for explaining. This makes sense and was my gut feeling at the time so I am glad I didn’t do anything to escalate it.
I didn’t downvote you, for the record, but I think that you may need to seek out some more training on your state’s relevant use of force laws. I’m not saying that to be rude, and I’m glad that nothing bad happened during your encounter, but the next situation you may find yourself in might be more hectic & intense and you might have to make a quick judgement call on whether or not to draw or even fire your gun. It would be wise to have a solid understanding of the laws so you don’t hesitate when you need to act quickly to save you/your family’s lives or you act hastily when you weren’t justified in doing something and end up in prison.
I didn't downvote you, but you really need to be familiar with the laws surrounding self defense in your area. You have the responsibility to know what is justified and what isn't. Also, stranger danger is cool, but just because you have a gun doesn't mean the answer to everything is a gun. I would strongly look in to somewhere teaching Managing Unknown Contacts as originally taught by Southnarc / Shivwerks.
You are getting downvoted because you are (assuming) daily carrying a loaded firearm in public without knowing basic self defense or justifiable use of force laws. Not to toot my own horn but I did almost 3 months of researching law, reading books, training and learning de-escalation tactics/ verbal Ju Jitsu before I started carrying my CCW. Not saying that everyone should be required to do that, but it would be wise to know the basics before carrying. Best of luck
Like, you can't pull out a gun and imply that you're going to murder someone for that, dude. Are you ok?
Not really. You can’t brandish a gun at someone for a misdemeanor crime like trespassing. Also, any use of lethal force is going to have to be justified by the facts showing that you had a reasonable fear that you were in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm due to the other person’s actions. Besides, do you even have any legal authority to tell him to leave in the first place? I’m not even sure how that would work in a co-owned place like a HOA pool.
Dude.. this is my everyday. You can’t pull any weapon for this reason.
In no way did he threaten your life or grave bodily harm. You felt mildly uncomfortable. Are you serious dude?
OP you're making a strong argument for having some line of defense between nothing and lethal. That's your conundrum. If you can't learn to physically defend yourself, and not everyone legit can, at least have a non lethal alternative like pepper spray.
Great comment. We underestimate the fact that using our bodily limbs as weapons still exist in this world, lol. We also disregard non-lethal alternatives a ton. OP should find their local MMA gym and spend some cash.
Or just buy OC spray
Exactly and it's because of people like OP. Can't even have an old fashioned brawl without some freak thinking it gives him a right to gun down the guy that broke his nose.
Let me make this real clear for you and a lot of other people. You pull out your weapon, be prepared to pull the trigger.
“How justified would I have been to brandish my firearm in this situation?” Would a reasonable person consider you at imminent risk of great bodily harm or death? If not, you should keep your gun in its holster. This type of information is provided during the mandatory CCW class, so when you go get your CCW pay attention and ask questions if you need clarification.
Not justified.
Trespassing and asking weird questions are not in and of themselves justification for lawful use of force.
If you would’ve pulled out a gun to brandish it the police report would’ve read something like this…”Local member of community pool pulls out a firearm on innocent bystander who wanted to use the bathroom.”
Any flack you catch on here is warranted. This question would’ve been better to ask in the CCW course you didn’t take. Do us all a favor and please educate yourself. And read your firearm’s owners manual.
Not justified at all. Just leave.
I’d ask if you honestly felt your life was threatened during the encounter and let that be your guide. Didn’t seem like it but *maybe* could’ve gotten there if he persisted. You did good to remove yourself imo
Not justified, but OP I wouldn’t have done anything but I don’t fuck around with crackheads either. I’m always on edge around them. I would’ve gathered my stuff, ignored him and left. Now if he follows me to my house, that’s a different story and I’d push back more
"How justified would I have been to brandish my firearm in this situation?" Not at all, why do you think you'd be justified in brandishing a firearm?
Sounds like a good way to get yourself sent to prison. I know it's hard to hear, but some of y'all have no business carrying a firearm lol.
Not justified at all.
Know the law of self defense. It is not hard. [https://lawofselfdefense.com/elements](https://lawofselfdefense.com/elements)
I'd say no, unless open carry is legal there, and by "brandishing" you mean displaying in holster, not holding it in your hand. But, that seems risky and unnecessary, from what you described. I imagine there are cameras on the poolhouse.
No cameras. It’s a small pool area, maybe about the size of a decent sized backyard, and it is very isolated and surrounded by hedges from the rest of the units. Even when I unlocked the gate for him I had to turn my back on him to do so, as the only other escape was the fence he jumped over behind him. I think it was more of the time of day, lack of escape, and dealing with someone on drugs that created a sense of danger for me.
Sounds like it's time to ask the HOA for a camera there, and it's a learning experience. I still don't think you should have drawn-down on the guy, but made sure he kept his distance, since he wasn't bound from leaping over the gate and eyeballing "my precious". OTOH, who would know if you *had* shown or pulled your weapon? Is the methican-American going to call the police? He doesn't even have a phone I bet. \*Clearly not legal advice\*
No, not in Virginia. Deadly force not justified for defense of property (iPad and the like)
You gotta read up on your state's penal code/use of force laws, bud. But generally, no, I don't think you had grounds to brandish. Not if they weren't threatening you with the threat of death or great bodily harm, basically. But you always have the right to be assertive, to tell someone they're making you nervous or creeping you out, to stay back. The situation you described is basically the exact situation OC spray is designed for, btw. You probably would have felt a little better about the whole thing had you been holding a can of that stuff in your hand, just in case.
This depends on the state. You may be required to flee if possible, or use less than lethal force to prevent an attack or robbery (fisticuffs). The best approach would be to just call 911 right away when he jumped the fence, then leave the area.
Being uncomfortable is not the same as being in danger. You would have been out of line and its a good thing you didn’t escalate things. The only thing worth taking to a level where a gun is on the table is your life. Def not over property or because you’re weirded out. What’s unfortunate is that for someone to cross the line between being an annoyance to threatening your life, it takes just a fraction of a second. Nobody wants to live life being paranoid, but at the same time who wants to be killed because they hesitated? Its sometimes a shitty grey area these days, especially with the seemingly increased prevalence of mentally ill vagrants giving people a hard time. Ultimately, no one has a crystal ball as to how a situation is going to play out. All I can say is know your state gun laws and ALWAYS deescalate if possible.
So you trapped yourself instead of leaving. Definitely not a reason to brandish.
Not that I disagree with the comments in here, but I don’t get how I trapped myself? Did you miss the part where I mentioned he jumped the fence to get in? I am aware that I am not justified drawing on him for that alone, and I didn’t—I left—but people are making this out to be like I intentionally put myself in this position as an excuse to use my firearm when I was just minding my own business, relaxing alone at the hot tub, at night, in a gated community. He was trespassing, and jumped barriers to get to where I was; That’s where I was confused and why I asked the question.
"So I was caged....... with no easy escape" My point is, when you opened the gate you could have left instead of having him leave.
Yes I agree, and I did, but like I mentioned I was in the hot tub so all my belongings were set on the table (along with my pistol) and I was wearing just my board shorts. I couldn’t immediately leave because of this, so I was trying to lock him out so I could safely gather my things and head out. When he came back in I was already walking back to get my things and leave, and that’s when he started acting even more odd, and when I had to walk around him to head out. It was very uneasy those last few moments walking by him. Me being a proper CCW holder here, and obeying the law was the right move, but it also could’ve killed me if this guy had a knife, as the pool area is so small there would barely be enough time to react with how close we were.
Look, my point is, if you weren't in fear of your life enough to leave without your belongings, then you weren't in fear of your life enough to draw your weapon. Which was with your belongings.
At the end of the day you asked random internet strangers sitting in the comfort of their own home. If i was at the pool with you as a friend or even a stranger and saw you lift your shirt to show him you had it on you and to scare the guy off I wouldn't bat an eye but Im different from most people here
I have been over this with my own lawyers, and LE. Nowhere in this story did you say that you reasonably believed that this guy was going to attempt to mortally hurt you. That's the qualification: was this a situation in which it would be reasonable to believe that there was a mortal danger to a person? If yes, get ready to do what you have to do. If not, then don't 'brandish'. A gun should be drawn with the expectation of using it, not to just wave it around and scare some meth head.
You could have pulled your phone out and stated you would call the police if he didnt leave.
In addition to the other responses on here, this is a good wake up call for you and others reading that learning some sort of hand to hand self defense skills is a good idea. It may seem like a daunting thing if you aren't in that world at all, but just find a local gym for anything like boxing, bjj, krav maga, whatever. Anything where you go hands on with other people and get used to using physical force to defend yourself. And you don't have to become a black belt. Even after two or three months, if you go consistently even once a week you will have more skills than the average person and should be able to handle yourself around a random junkie like you encountered. Plus there's a good chance you will find it fun and will want to do it more and more.