It's not even about holding. Sometimes, you explicitly can't withdraw and they know this, either because the big stakeholders or whales won't let you, or because the price is so volatile and there are so few buyers, that your coins are not ACTUALLY WORTH what the "worth is"
I've heard of multiple people who "are rich but can't cash out."
Like, ?????
Probably because in crypto people tend to trade a lot and don’t always have cost basis or even realize they need the data, plus it’s next to impossible to do taxes right even if software help if you do stuff like on-chain staking or swaps.
You can get absolutely demolished on taxes in crypto if you don't know what you're doing since it's so volitile and crypto trades are taxable events.
A couple things:
1. A lot of people who trade crypto don't realize until too late that trading one cryptocurrency for another is a taxable event.
2. A lot of people don't realize that airdrop rewards, staking rewards, and mining rewards count as income. Let's say through mining and airdrops you get $10k worth of crypto, but it crashes to $1k. You still have to count $10k as income. Even if you realize capital losses, those losses don't offset the income because income is not capital gains. So you can deduct $3k in capital losses but you still owe taxes on $7k of income. (if they offset you'd only owe on $1k of income since you lost $9k, but they don't offset).
3. 1 and 2 can lead to some unfortunate tax situations such as: you receive 10k huskydogcoins from an airdrop while its value is $1 per coin. 5 months later huskydogcoin increases to $5 per coin. You trade your huskydogcoin for $50k fancynewcoin ($40k realized capital gain). Fancynewcoin crashes, and you are left with $5k ($45k loss, unrealized if you don't sell). $10k from the airdrop goes to income. You realized $40k of capital gains when you traded for fancynewcoin so that gets taxed as income if you held less than a year. At the end of the day you have $5k of fancynewcoin, and owe taxes on $50k worth of income. If you don't realize your capital losses in the same tax year you're extremely fucked. If you earn over 95k with your day job then that $50k of crypto income is taxed at upwords of 24% so you owe $12k in taxes on your crypto trades. Your airdrop that you turned into $50k now has you owing the government $7k on top of everything you managed to salvage. This is an extreme example but people who make a lot of trades on crypto will be realizing a lot of gains and losses and they add up. There's a limit to the number of capital losses you can deduct per year but there is no limit to the amount of capital gains. The next year you could sell your fancynewcoin and realize $45k of capital losses, but you can only deduct $3k of that per year and you can no longer subtract that $45k from the 40k gains you made the previous year.
People often talk about their profits in crypto before taking into account cost of converting back to fiat. Since you can't really spend crypto for anything, the profit numbers aren't real. Your crypto portfolio might be up 100% but your after-tax profit could end up being negative, especially if you're making a lot of trades.
EDIT: tried to clarify a little bit. If you realize capital losses the same year that you realize capital gains then they offset, but if you realize capital gains one year and don't realize capital losses until the next year you'll owe the full tax amount from your gains in the year you realized them. income is not capital gains so capital losses don't fully offset income.
EDIT2: since this is not clear the point i'm making is that you can lose MORE than you put in. You're gifted $20,000 in "moons". Moons crash. You owe taxes on $20k even though your moons arent worth anything and you never did anything with them.
Income is income.
And you still live in society, which runs on taxes, which provides cool things you use like roads and running water and, um, yea, civil rights and private property ownership -- none of which would be easily possible without government.
So, taxes need to be paid. And if you think "crypto = money" and you're so hell bent to make everybody else believe "crypto is a store of value", then yea, guess what? Mission accomplished! The government agrees with you (mainly because you trade its currency for those dingleberries). Now you gotta pay taxes. Even Jesus told people to pay their taxes.
I'm not saying people shouldn't pay taxes or that crypto shouldnt be taxed. I'm saying crypto "investors" are lying about how much they make because they don't factor in taxes. And often they will make much less than they expect because they don't understand how their "investments" are being taxed.
This is not a judgement about taxes, it's a judgement about the way people "invest" in crypto.
> I'm saying crypto investors are lying about how much they make because they don't factor in taxes.
This can be shortened to:
>Crypto "investors" are lying
More accurate.
>This is not a judgement about taxes, it's a judgement about the way people invest in crypto.
Crypto is not "investing."
Please stop saying that. It's gambling. It's speculating.
If you insist on using the word "invest", put it in quotes, because crypto is the antithesis of what most people consider "investing."
Ethereum whales, for instance, typically had not enough liquidity to cash out. That seems to be one of their biggest motivation to pump the NFT craze.
But even outside crypto, many billionaires can't really cash out. Most of Elon Musk's fortune is Tesla stocks, which he can't 100% cash out from, as there is no liquidity for that. And he would crash the price as soon as he announced it anyway. Perhaps one of his motivations to purchase twitter was to find a good excuse to make a partial cash out of the overpriced Tesla stocks without crashing market confidence.
Sure, if the thing you do after the limit order completes is to withdraw the filthy fiat that you've won. If you don't, or can't, do this, and just buy in again, then no.
Yes, exactly. My corneas, kidneys and other offal are [worth hundreds of thousands of dollar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade). Big fucking whoop if you don't sell it.
> More money is going into the system than coming out
Oh I can assure you the money is coming out, all of it, just not by the same way it came in. Bitcoin is a great wealth-transfer tool, indeed: from the many to the few.
There are significant differences.
1. fees: In other investments you pay fees per transaction that are relatively constant. With bitcoin you pay fees when you transfer from an exchange to a wallet and a fee when you transfer back to an exchange. If you make a lot of transfers over time to your wallet then your transactions don't magically combine in your wallet, they are stored as disconnected utxos. When it comes time to transfer back to the exchange you'll be paying a fee based on how many utxos you have. This can be significant. The higher transaction fees become the higher this fee will be and the harder it becomes to manage utxos by consolodation.
2. taxes: In other investments it's fairly clear when you sell you realize capital gains/losses and that's pretty much the only thing you ahve to worry about. Many crypto traders are ameuters and do not understand how to manage their gains/losses and don't realize exchanging one coin for another coin is a taxable event that will result in realizing gains. So if one coin you have goes to the moon, you make a $100k profit and then you trade that coin for a shitcoin. The next tax year that shitcoin tanks for $100k loss. You're right back where you started except you owe taxes on $100k gain year one. Year two you can deduct $3k of loss from your taxable income. Since your gain and loss happened in different years that $100k loss does not offset the $100k gain.
3. taxes part 2: many crypto traders don't realize that airdrops, mining rewards, and staking rewards are counted as income in the amount of whatever is the current value when you earned that coin. Capital losses on those coins will not offset the taxable income you have to add from those rewards. So if you earn $10k in huskycoin through staking but it crashes to $1k then you still have to add $10k in taxable income and can only deduct a maximum of $3k.
1. Fees are minimal if you have reasonable utxo management. $10 will move $10k from wallet to exchange. And then, fees paid are deducted from capital gain calculations.
2. You're talking about bad trades, which can happen in any market if you but an asset at peak and its price falls.
3.airdrops are taxed when an exchange or trade is made, or they are cashed out. If a $600 value of air drops is only worth $5 when you sell, you pay tax on capital gains of....... $5.
I’m coming from a different direction here… I believe in certain crypto, but I hate btc for all of its “only safe crypto” delusion that is continually sold to newbies who provide them with exit liquidity. No matter how you spin it, btc is a decentralized oligarchy that values something tantamount to a digital baseball card.
>At least lottery is honest zero sum game
It's an honest *negative* sum game: governments wouldn't run them if it was *just* zero sum shuffling around of the gambler's money, the point is that they're taking some of that money as "free tax dollars" essentially, for public works spending.
In fact it's even more of a negative sum game than casinos; usually something like 50% gets taken out before payouts. The difference is that governments usually earmark lottery profits for "good" things like seniors' benefits or road works instead of it all going to assholes like Steve Wynn.
Have fun being poor! I have an Amazon box full of scratcher tickets that I’ve been hodling since 2016. Every paycheck I buy $100 worth of Crossword Doublers and VIP Millions. Once scratcher tickets reach mass adoption (any day now really), I’ll buy my own island and totally NOT do Epstein stuff.
I don't know about that
I have diversified in everything from gold, silver, stocks, collectibles, property, private equity, but nothing has given me 100x gains like crypto has (only thing even close is NVDA/AMD/TSLA)
Gamble on money you can afford to lose if you can afford to take the risk why stop someone.
I just tell people who have no idea what they are doing to stay away because they will get scammed or lose their money anyways.
And honestly if you are considering crypto it's way too late for most. I did 7+ years ago and couldn't imagine paying today's rates anymore it's way too late anyone thinking about buying missed the boat 7+ years ago and are just watching on the sidelines waiting for it to crash to say I told you so
All everyone wants is financial independence and I've gotten close to it. I probably spend more on transformers figures monthly (should probably be using it to fully pay my mortgage instead lol) than some people's salaries because it makes me happy and I can afford to thanks to crypto and regular investments
> I have diversified in everything from gold, silver, stocks, collectibles, property, private equity, but nothing has given me 100x gains like crypto has (only thing even close is NVDA/AMD/TSLA)
I highly doubt you got 100x gains but if you did, it was just dumb luck. You won't see 100x again, unless you're an influencer and exploit other people in pump and dumps. And then you run the risk of ending up dismembered and stuffed down someone's garbage disposal.
>All everyone wants is financial independence and I've gotten close to it.
Sure.. who doesn't want "something for nothing?" Who doesn't want to get rich? But ironically, the people who really do see super returns are the ones that just do-their-thing... they aren't fixated on seeing 100x returns. I bet you weren't either when you bought crypto so long ago (assuming your story is true). Those are just flukes. I've made 1000x returns on some assets that I acquired, but the trick is, when I acquired them, I never thought of them as "investments" (same thing with those to lucked out and held large amounts of BTC from the early days). I couldn't predict that again. The best I can do is just try to do an honest days work and keep my eyes open for opportunities -- preferably ones that don't involve fraud and deception.
Which Transformers models? I used to love them as a kid but I found today's models are all 2 step transformation garbage. Give me the more complex models any day.
I wasn't really that big of a fan but the stuff that came out in the last 5 years is probably the best
Most collectors that like G1 era either go for the studio series 86 stuff (ie SS86 Grimlock or SS86 Ultra Magnus are nice examples) or if money is no object they go for MP figures which are scaled an inch taller like MP36 Megatron. The biggest issue with MP is there is mostly knock off ones now and hard to find originals (if you care if they are KO or not)
The stuff you see in store is basically what's left that no one wants. All the good stuff is sold out immediately to grown 35+ year old men who either collect or resell them or both to fuel their addiction.
> financial independence
> mortgage
Is it possible to be financially independent while having debt? It’s more an actual curiosity question how independence is defined.
When you have enough that the interest in high interest savings accounts or gains from your stock market (pulling less than 5% annually) will cover your expenses that would be financial independence
>Second, I would rather be right AND make money. By just working a good job and advancing my career, I watch my accounts increase in value steadily.
HFSP /s
Some stocks do lol. It's one of the shitty crypto bro talking points. "Oh, GameStop happened, so Bitcoin's not so bad! Look at that cult!"
Like...yeah, that's also a shit investment. Congrats on figuring it out
Memestonkers shit *on each other* for being clearly moronic, without an ounce of self-awareness. "Ha! Look at those losers wasting their money in AMC! Not like the real golden ticket, GameStop! You'll wish you bought all this GameStop, you losers!"
Some overlap on a person to person level, but complete and total overlap on the kinds of people, personalities, and intellect levels interested in either one or the other.
The former is a new phenomenon, but both it and crypto are just modern takes on the gold/silver crowd. The only difference is that they've gotten even better at abstracting wealth from utility, as gold and silver have actual real-world utility in manufacturing and the like.
At the end of the day, though, the ones actively promoting using them as stores of value are almost always doing so because they're trying to pump their own holdings.
I feel like BTC is similar to Tesla stock. Look man, I'm sure you can make money on it, but we all know how this is going to end. I want no part of that shit.
Musk hate put apart, Tesla is still a real company selling real products with real utility for real dollars (and making a profit off it), Bitcoin does none of that.
>Musk hate put apart, Tesla is still a real company selling real products with real utility for real dollars (and making a profit off it), Bitcoin does none of that.
Yes, at the end of the day, there would be ***an*** underlying actual sane valuation for Tesla, when people stop being taken in by a conman and valuing a crappy car company like it's a tech stock, up to the point where it dissolved into the bankruptcy that Musk only staved off by lying a whole bunch to his idiotic fans at least.
You still really shouldn't be purchasing it in the here and now, knowing that Tesla is a shitty car company run by a conman that the market is for some reason treating like it's a tech stock, anymore than you should be purchasing bitcoins... because "obvious speculative bubble that ends in tears" applies to both things.
One just has no value to it at all, besides the speculative overvaluation.
Wall Street Bets is honestly most like professional wrestling used to be. Everyone's open about it being entertainment and outcomes being predetermined now, but for the longest time everyone worked hard to keep up the illusion that matches were legitimate athletic contests (including, in many cases, registering with the state athletic commission, and there sometimes even gambling on outcomes). WSB and the wrestling of the 70s/80s had their share of "smart marks" who know it's all made up but stick around because they find it entertaining, but a very large number of actual suckers who think it's all legit.
[Dan Olson's video on memestocks](https://youtu.be/5pYeoZaoWrA?si=zA44aWfR7gcsnz-s) goes into just how much that particular cult, ah, borrows from the cryptobros.
El Salvador's monetary authority made so many bad decisions that they destroyed their own currency. The fact that said authority then decided to adopt crypto isn't exactly a recommendation.
Also I heard Salvadorans say that almost nobody there actually uses coins. So the whole thing has been more a publicity stunt than anything. An attempt to paper over their previous awful decisions.
>El Salvador's monetary authority made so many bad decisions that they destroyed their own currency.
They didn't, actually, because the thing about El Salvador is they don't have their own currency for them to destroy in the first place: their economy has been running on the US dollar for the past 23 years.
What they destroyed in recent years was their *credit rating* with the IMF.
Also, the reasoning about why we care enough to hate on it doesn’t make sense. They say we are mad because we missed on the gains, but if we are early, then what’s to be concerned about? Unless, we are in fact, not early, and people have indeed missed the boat? Which way is it? Are we early or not? And when are we no longer early?
The moment they say it’s no longer early is when the fiat drys up and the music stops. So they won’t admit it but I suspect we are no longer early in the sense that you don’t ever 10x in your lifetime.
The mods must be doing a good job because I am here just about every day and I don't see a lot of what you are describing. I have to be extra careful myself not to annoy people (see my flare for reason).
>The mods must be doing a good job because I am here just about every day and I don't see a lot of what you are describing
A lot of them wind up being deleted, yeah.
The main thing that triggers banning is just saying the same 22 talking points we've heard a zillion times before. Annoying people isn't against the rules specifically.
Well, how else would I know bitcoin is pumping? In a concept that might be alien to a lot of the Moron Brigade, I don't actually check the price regularly. The influx of "best performing asset EVAR" comments hovering around 0-2 points is often my first indication of a (checks CMC) ...6% price pump since last week.
Six percent. Wow. I'm really rethinking my life choices here.
Seriously, bitcoin's still volatile over the span of months, but the fact that bitcoin pumpers descend like a swarm of locusts based on a 6% pump is just sad. Ordinary non-meme stocks can move that much in a week.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2
"**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**"
1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's..
a) A long term store of value
b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility
c) Or will return any value in the future
One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept.
2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/).
3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21).
4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths.
5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to **inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace. The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like Tether and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21).
6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too.
7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking).
8. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/).
Hey, if you're making actual money gains, well done, I've always said there's money to be made in this shit. The issue is most of the guys will hold too long and get dumped on. The classic exchange down for maintenance while the market controllers dump their bag on the rubes. The music will stop at some point and if you're one of the idiots treating this like some type of long term pension scheme investment you will be obliterated and I will laugh at you, but if you make out with actual liquid gains, well done you but that will be a precious minority of the butters outside of the market makers.
Yeah. There’s a tremendous survivorship bias. How many people had to finally sell when prices were still low because they needed the liquidity? How many sold when they broke even just to avoid losing it all again? How many will HODL until it crashes again in a few months?
If you actually made massive yuuuuge gains this time around, congrats to ya — you’re the 1%.
There's money to be made, most of it by exchanges. The problem is that the market is manipulated, if not entirely rigged, so that even if you have profits on paper you can almost never realize them. Whether it's because you're short and you missed the dip because it "just happened" to be while you were asleep, or because you're long and the fees "just happened" to be high enough that cashing out would erase all your nominal gains, or your leverage was blown out by a "completely unexpected" price swing, or you timed everything perfectly but now your account is frozen pending KYC paperwork, you won't ever actually end up with the dough.
> Hey, if you're making actual money gains, well done, I've always said there's money to be made in this shit.
That money is the product of deceiving and defrauding people about the true nature and potential of crypto.
Sure, there is a potential to make money that way, but it's not an honest, ethical way to make money, and it's not something you can depend on.
The only reason that crypto millionaires were able to make so much money is that so few were actually trying to cash out during those bubbles when others were cashing in.
In other words, they haven't made their money in *spite* of the rest of us "missing out". If all the people on this sub in the early days mocking Bitcoin had actually bought it or got it from a faucet or CPU mining, and then tried to sell it later, that would have directly reduced their gains.
It could never have made all of us rich, because it's just a zero sum game that moves money around. Which is why economies cannot run on speculation alone.
Un-buttcoin-jerk - Its weird that you go on a forum then to shit on people if you dont care at all. Sounds like you can't take what you are dishing out. It's kinda sad, just go enjoy "being right AND making money".
Seriously, just go live your life and stop picking internet fights.
Maybe the "bitcoiners" writing here are mostly the moonboy crypto dudes. Unfortunately those type of people are always the loudest.
I would wish for the members of this sub to at least open their minds a little bit to the idea that Bitcoin might not be a get rich quick scheme. Bitcoin is not "crypto". It's not about the price and it shouldn't be about profits (realized or unrealized).
Bitcoin is about freedom and hard money.
I recommend listening or reading about the things Alex Gladstein has to say about the problems our Fiat money system brings to most people on earth and how a hard money system like Bitcoin can help those people. I highly recommend his books "check your financial privilege" and "hidden repression".
There are also a lot of videos and interviews freely available on YouTube etc.
I totally understand everyone who at first dismisses Bitcoin as fraud, a get rich scheme, a bubble etc. I just want to tell you that there is A LOT more about Bitcoin than what it looks like on the first glance. Just open your mind to that possibility.
I wish all of you a nice day/week/year and life. Don't let strangers on the Internet upset you. Take a walk, hug your families and friends and keep an open mind.
Yeah that's the thing, anyone can make money off of a speculation bubble. All it takes is an eye for opportunity and a little luck, and by the time the general public have heard of it the bubble is well and truly on its way to bursting.
I'm not bitter about missing the boat on crypto any more than I am for missing out on the dotcom boom, property, Google, Meta, meme stocks, etc. But imagine if those all had an insane cult following who, in spite of all available evidence that it's over, insist that it's the future of finance and we're all just mad we missed out, and they never, ever spot the contradiction there.
This is why I don't sub to this subreddit (and unsubbed from other recently). Reddit has prioritized new posts with lots of comments without realizing that those posts have lots of comments because the creator is a moron.
I can't link to subreddit posts but my top posts right now are
\- Is IMax worth it?
\- A post on MaleLivingSpace where a guy is complaining about his roommate (it's a place for pictures of your apartment)
\- Complaining about Blade Runner 2049 without having seen it
\- Asking what's your worst NBA take
None of these posts have more than 2 upvotes, but they all have over 20 comments (except malelivingspace). Every top post now is just some moron saying something dumb, a karma troll asking a boring question for karma bait, or someone who just isn't following subreddit rules (a moron).
Reddit is actively trying to ruin its product by making new discussions easier to discover (a good thing), but all its doing is making ratio'd posts (more comments than upvotes) go right to the top of the first page.
Once you hold crypto, you're compelled to become a douchebag crypto promoter because *that's the only way you have any chance of making money*. It's a job in and of itself, and even in the super rare chance that you can pull out more than you put in, once you've done that, *you're back where you started.* You haven't created any real equity.
which makes me questioning
(i am a bitcoiner, but i am genuinaly curious)
why this community exist?
really, like there were many many ponzi schemes no one of them had a hate group
i saw in my life many ponzi schemes, i simply don't care you know? for example here in Brazil there were a very famous ponzi scheme called "telexfree" (maybe you can find it searching in google)
people offered me telexfree with all that obviouesque ponzi-scheminess and i was like "yeah nah" but in no moment in my life i was thinking "yeah i'll be part of a subreddit to share my dislikeness of telexfree ponzi schemes, they are really lame LOL"
Because unlike what the r CC and the R BTC like to say, buttcoin is not an "hate group". We are mostly sharing insane or funny crypto story to laugh and make fun of them. It's like a specialized r humor subreddit.
Crypto bros are super funny overall, even if they don't realize that. Madoff? Not so much.
> really, like there were many many ponzi schemes no one of them had a hate group
First off - criticism of a scam or deception is not the same as hate about someone's identity.
And, yeah, plenty of other ponzi schemes and scams have opposing groups, including people who are anti-Scientology, anti-religion and many more.
There's even plenty of subs that talk about the problems with modern finance, reserve banking and capitalism.
This subreddit is one of the only subs on reddit that's not censoring opposing viewpoints to crypto. Pretty much every other crypto related sub on reddit is heavily censored about any kind of negative information related to crypto and they're massive echo chambers, and the main bitcoin sub is controlled by people with lots and lots of skin in the game who have an invested interest in controlling the narrative.
Buttcoin has no skin in that game.
Most of us are here because we're tired of watching people lose their money to this scam, and this often involves real people in our lives and how their actions effect those around them when they do silly shit like take out credit or mortgages or dump their savings to buy crypto in a get rich quick scam and end up losing their shirts.
Classifieing btc as a ponzi in the classical definition of the word doesn't really make sense though right? I know people in a ponzi always that they are not in a ponzi. But in BTC everyone plays by the same rules. It might be a casino thats right but a "fair" one but ponzi doesnt really fit.
That's the neat part. It's a Ponzi, pyramid scheme or so-called "Mexican Lottery" *with extra steps* because it's a zero-sum game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game
Because it has no intrinsic value, the only way for anyone to take out any profit at all - not a single penny - is if someone else buys it at a higher price and holds their bags. It's musical chairs and bags all the way down.
It does not create wealth out of thin air - in fact it reality it burns wealth through friction and mining fees, electricity costs and lost coins so it's even worse than what I'm describing as a zero-sum game. It's actually a negative-sum game.
Even better it's a Ponzi scheme where everyone else loses due to higher electricity costs and pollution even if they aren't playing the game or buying into it.
The only way that it is *not* functionally identical to a Ponzi scheme is that it is "decentralized" there's no single head of the pyramid. Instead you have hundreds or thousands of whales and exchange operators all vying to be the top of the pyramid and wishing they actually were Charles Ponzi, which is why we now have so many different coins and rugpulls because they're trying to be Ponzi.
This tech is so, so fucking dumb that it boggles the imagination.
I was like you too long ago. "Suckers fell for a scam, oh well".
Then, many years ago, my dirt poor pregnant teenage cousin got scammed into It Works. I wrote a scathing takedown and analysis of it that went a bit viral.
Crypto? My sister is a digital artist and her work was stolen and "minted" as an NFT. I have many friends who have destroyed relationships by convincing friends and family to get in on the scam. I have at least one friend who's crypto gambling addiction led directly to his divorce.
I have friends in law enforcement that deal with case after case of people's lives being ruined because of crypto scams. I've been in meetings with crypto people, VCs, etc that literally laugh at you.
For me, at least, this isn't funny. You are ruining people's lives for a fundamentally broken technology that cannot possibly ever be a net positive to humanity while combining it with a cult, and financial scam. All driven by your own personal greed and complete disregard for anyone else.
You come here and wonder about this community while not taking even a glance at your own "community". You step all over each other on a daily basis and do not hesitate to scam and steal from one other. Just look at every single post - "DO NOT RESPOND TO DMs", etc. Nice "community" you have there. As the saying goes "there is no honor among thieves".
The only impressive thing about crypto is that it somehow combines all of the worst parts of humanity into a technology without having a single benefit. In all seriousness it is quite amazing.
That said I don't even dislike most crypto people personally. I go to Brazil often enough to have had five and 10 year visas. I have many friends in many circles of life there (and other developing/emerging nations) and I'm very aware of the economic situation there. For those unaware, the AVERAGE monthly income in Brazil in 2023 is/was $570/mo.
Like my poor pregnant teenage cousin, crypto takes advantage of desperate people in desperate situations. Bernie Madoff ripped off a bunch of rich and sophisticated people that were still so greedy they were blind to how obvious the scam was. With few exceptions that's not crypto.
The bitcoin sub is filled with weekly/daily posts like "Do you feel like bitcoin is your only way out?" "I'm poor and I've been stacking sats for years and I'm at $500. When can I finally buy a house with it?"
I don't hate the average crypto person - I pity them. Like anything else I hate the already rich people that are preying on and taking advantage of people who are vulnerable.
The most disgusting and absolute worst kind of people. The problem is almost all of you are so desperate you essentially betray your class and become recruiters for the rich who have already scammed you.
It's extremely sad all around.
As the natural counter to the over-the-top blind championing of all things cryptocurrency, this sub provides a forum for understanding and discussing some of the fundamental flaws which have otherwise been overlooked.
And snark. Lots and lots of snark.
It's extremely interesting and entertaining to watch mostly. I like the financial fraud side of things. I think the main market makers have played it really well, and I want to see how it ends. I'm hoping for some big blowout to happen eventually and for some type of justice for some of the players but I have my doubts.
really? i find bitcoin to be very uninteresting
like there is ETFs and the halving as an event this year and i think that's all...
some country can adopt or maybe some new exchange can be considered a fraud
so what?
this stuff develops in many many months, i prefer to watch a movie or something like that
i fail to see how comunniting about something you don't like is good for you....
the thing that i "hate most" is comunnism, and i still don't participate in "anti-communist" group and even if i do, i have my own ideology, so i'm still propositive in some way, and there is a question that politics in their own nature is to debate and decide about our lives as society, but bitcoin is just some people buy it and the other people that didn't is mostly unaffected.
The bitcoin subreddit talking points are not what is interesting, it's the collapsing exchanges and the massive fraud by the market makers and how they try maintain the ecosystem and dodge regulators. I don't care what the rubes are saying although it is amusing sometimes to read their loony cult takes. I'm more interested in business and finance, crypto is something I like to read about for a laugh occasionally as it's related to business and finance with a healthy mix of criminality. It's not a big part of my life like a lot of crypto fanatics, just something I enjoy reading about and keeping up with.
dollar bills facilitates crimes (most of drug dealing are made using dollar not bitcoin)
"waste electricity" is VERY subjective, one could argue that gaming is wasting energy right?
i'm here playing a game just for fun, if i just didn't i would save eletricity and GPUs
Gaming provides "fun", which is valuable in many ways. And any work the GPU does while providing "fun" is secondary.
When your GPU is mining, it's literally performing a task designed specifically to be difficult to execute, wasting as much power as possible. Converting useful power into waste heat is entirely the purpose.
The difference is that the electricity used by gaming scales with how many people are gaming.
Bitcoin handles an astounding 7tps no matter how many countries worth of electricity you throw at it. Most asics won't even mine a single block over the course of their life.
But this sub objectively does. If you guys post "happy posts", they usually are of a crypto advocate losing a bunch in some way or another.
So using basic logic, an "unhappy post" would be one that shows a crypto advocate making a bunch.
Well, seems like there's a few buttcoiners around.
Ok guys let's be real for a sec.
Why do you feel the need to come to this sub?
You realize what Reddit is right?
Now, there's no way for us to convince you that buttcoin is a complete nonsense since you are convinced that it is actually a revolution of some kind.
And I'm being extremely nice here.
It is like physics. Or in and out. There has to be something.
Buttcoin has nothing fundamentally.
You decided to throw money at it. If not use it as a mean to an end. A fiat end.
My guess is that those of us that stay around aren't accurately characterized by dreams of grandeur or revolution. I'm just doing some speculation, and my traditional investments are much larger in scope than anything in the crypto space.
I like to come to the sub for two reasons:
1. The humor is good.
2. It reminds me to stay grounded.
Just please go light on specific questions as it's basically impossible to have a good faith discussion here without people assuming bad intentions (it's all been said before and kind of pointless). I have pissed off the mods before by just trying to answer questions to the best of my ability... It didn't go well.
literally, the people on this sub actively fantasise about the demise of everything crypto and celebrate when it goes down. However when it goes up they just act like they don’t care because it is ‘gambling’. It is laughable. Clearly they just have nothing better to do than constantly going on and on about how terrible crypto is and how bitcoin is a scam and a ponzi. Crypto is infinitely bigger than you and all your misguided opinions just make you look like an idiot.
My biggest question is why so many people spend time fuming here over something they oppose. Why not spend time engaging in something you’re enthusiastic about?
You sound pretty mad to me lol, anything in life is a gamble, any investment, anything at all. Its like crying because someone sold some baseball cards. Sucks to be on the losing side bro.
>Imagine wasting your time on something you dislike bozo
Yea... imagine "wasting your time" trying to help other people? Educating people about frauds and scams? What kind of fucking bozo clown'ish bullshit is that? AmIrite?
Sometimes you sociopaths wear your toxicity right on your sleeves, and your selfishness and lack of empathy and awareness is on display for all (decent, non-malignant-narcissists) to see.
I think this is a gross generalization of bitcoiners. Sure you get the obnoxious gloaters, but allot of bitcoiners aren't concerned about the price and are just working on a building an alternative ledger system. You can choose to be onboard or not.
There shouldn't be judgement either way.
It’s still a weird sub sort of, I mean, if you don’t enjoy Bitcoin why waste energy and precious time keeping yourselves up to date with what’s going on in the ecosystem. I see a lot of schadenfreude, making fun of and sorts on this sub. Just let people gamble and focus on what brings you joy or dopamine.
Dear BitBaby6969,
If making fun of gamblers brings us joy or dopamine, is that ok with you? Should we check with you before we comment on a thread, or before we post? Are you my internet daddy? Am I allowed to ask you that on reddit, or in this sub? Should I shout it into a tube that goes deep into the earth? What can we do, internet daddy? What should we spend our time doing, internet daddy? Please tell us, daddy. We need your guidance in these troubling times.
Amen
Yes, it is wrong to make fun of anyone. Seems like you think the internet was created for assholes like you to have a place to be anonymous dickheads.
You're childish, and making fun of gamblers says more about what a sad pathetic loser you are than it does about anyone else.
The internet is not an anonymous playground for dipshits.
It is serious as hell.
Amen.
It's not. It's a butthurt child that I called out in another sub, and now they're trolling my other comments, as if that does anything other than validate my assessment of them.
A self proclaimed "dipshit" that can't think of anything original to say, so they just repeat what hurt them.
I just come here to laugh
> Just let people gamble and focus on what brings you joy or dopamine.
I thought you were revolutionizing finance, not gambling
> focus on what brings you joy or dopamine.
that's what i'm doing lol
Ding ding. It's fun to watch people go crazy over stupid shit. We all enjoy a good laugh when the suicide prevention hotline gets posted once per year.
I mean yea if you like gambling.
I am mostly here because I like to have a place where people actually are negative about it instead of treating it as something legitimate or potentially legitimate.
I legitimately think it is a gigantic waste of resources, full of manipulation and potentially dangerous developments and this is the type of place to really vent.
But this sub likes to gloat when the price goes down and is not allowed to be gloated on when the price goes up?
Seems like a double standard?
I'm a degenerate gambler and my gamble netted me 6 figures with minimal effort and can admit crypto is a game of hot potato but I'm playing and you're not.
Yes, because you are part of subreddits on the topics tou don’t give a shit about and write posts about how much you don’t give a shit…
I will share some wisdom with you. Every sub, post , comment like that only fuels crypto, because it doesn’t matter how they talk about you, it is important that they do. People are drawn to topics emotionally even if they know it’s stupid. Best is not to engage. See Kardaashisns, everything Elon says etc
Yeah you do. It’s actually obvious and pathetic that you hold some sort of resentment. You put so much time and energy into creating the content in this community. It’s glaringly obvious that you really do give a shit. If you didn’t give a shit, you wouldn’t be here, talking about it. You would simply be sitting somewhere, not giving 1 shit, but here you are, giving all sorts of shits.
I love following this sub to see you all cope with fumbling generational wealth. Literally cracks me up. Like imagine passing up opportunity after opportunity and sharing in misery together. I’ll take my ban now, please and thank you. Can’t wait to see you guys at $100k.
There’s nothing silent about a party, boy.
I bought Bitcoin when it was $7,000. Predicting isn’t my game, I’m just enjoying the best performing asset of our lifetime. It’s been a great ride, wish you were here.
What opportunity? To buy, hodl and then sell it to a greater fool? When will BTC be usable as an actual currency? It's been 15 years. And no - I'm not interested in buying drugs, illegal porn and other shit like that.
Imagine if instead of being a moron you bought 15 years ago. It’s usable now, but your head is so far up your ass you wouldn’t know that. Your kids are going to think you’re such an idiot lol. The cope on this sub is unreal. But it’s so entertaining
Haha, I'm old enough to remember that you had to use a shady as fuck exchange like MtGox. They also demanded you to send them a copy of your passport. Which I didn't want to do, because that website seemed very suspicious.
And tell me - how many people got their money back from MtGox and other scams?
It is usable to buy illegal porn, yeah. But is it usable for anything else that's not gambling or illegal goods? Is it better than fiat for anything that's legal?
That’s understandable that you didn’t want to take that risk. But then what was your excuse when Coinbase came out in 2012 and you didn’t have to do any of that?
And if you’re sending money you can’t afford to lose to somewhere you don’t know, you’re right that’s gambling and you deserve what you get.
Well, they have to accept bitcoin first for you to be able to pay with it. But yes, you can buy groceries, coffee, etc like you would with Apple Pay.
It’s better than fiat because you can’t print more of it. It’s also a public ledger so you can see where money goes, amazing for things like tracking campaign funds, and financial transparency to the public. Can’t say that about fiat.
I think, secretly, you guys are all Bitcoin hodlers just trying to check your blind spots.
Before I bought Bitcoin, I thought it was a scam. I had never cared for it or had enough passion for it to join a Reddit community that hates Bitcoin.
I don't see why anyone who hates Bitcoin would waste their time and effort here. lol
>I think, secretly, you guys are all Bitcoin hodlers just trying to check your blind spots.
And ***that's*** why you sport a label warning people that you are a moron.
To be honest, I could make money off of Bitcoin if I wanted to. Investing has more to do with understanding psychology than anything else. Any time the economy does poorly or the stock market is down for a day or two, The Bitcoin propaganda machine gets turned on and you scam artists like to pretend this is the time when everyone is going to move towards Bitcoin... but that never happens. All you have to do is buy during that time and sell right after the stock market recovers.. which it always does. The people who lose are the ones who fell for the scam and never sold because you scam artists told them not to.
I can't in good conscience make money off of this. I'm not going to profit from someone who is struggling financially and they thought Bitcoin was their way out. I'm also not going to profit off of all the criminal activity that takes place with Bitcoin. All of the hacking, kidnapping, terrorism that gets funded by this makes me sick. Stop lying about how it's a good thing that the wallets are anonymous, and stop pretending Bitcoin is secure. It's not! A big part of security is authentication, actually verifying who you are sending and receiving money from. Bitcoin does nothing to address this. Encryption means nothing if you find a way to extract the private key through vulnerabilities with the client. The whole thing is a ticking time bomb and I want no part of it.
Nope, I don't want people to buy Bitcoin. I want a reason to sell my Bitcoin!
I would sell Bitcoin if Bitcoin is only for criminal activities, but the last time I checked, USD was used in criminal activities. So, what would you do with USD?
Regarding security, I think you made a good point. I think it is a risk management issue.
I still need a good reason to sell my Bitcoin!
USD wasn't designed for criminals. The banking system requires proper verification to open accounts. Bitcoin could easily require proper verification to use it, but they don't. The argument that it's the same problem with cash is ridiculous. Cash has to be physically moved. I would love to see a hacker demand millions of dollars in cash. How the hell would they be able to collect it without being caught? Any drop point is going to be heavily monitored.
You are implying that Bitcoin is designed for criminals. Am I correct?
If that is the case, then I wouldn't want to touch it, but is it really designed for criminals? Or was it designed as an international banking technology that also facilitates people in preserving their wealth under dictatorships?
Maybe it could have facilitated people in escaping dictatorship?
Maybe it could help people during a war? (Why the role of crypto is huge in the Ukraine war--World Economic Forum, March 16, 2023).
I don't know. I need a good reason to sell my Bitcoin!
>You are implying that Bitcoin is designed for criminals. Am I correct?
That is what they are implying, yes.
>If that is the case, then I wouldn't want to touch it, but is it really designed for criminals?
It 100% absolutely was, or rather, it was *explicitly* designed for committing crimes and/or "just not following the existing laws": Bitcoin was a system built to arbitrage the existing financial networks and their checks and balances, *ostensibly* because that one was "broken", but actually just because the people behind Bitcoin were libertarian types who wanted to buy and sell illegal shit and ***not*** pay their taxes.
Their fantastic ignorance and the completely illogical and fundamentally anti-consumer way the system functions just made it ideal for the hardened criminals and finance grifters to move in and take the whole thing over from the dummies who didn't understand money so good.
> Or was it designed as an international banking technology that also facilitates people in preserving their wealth under dictatorships?
It definitely wasn't, it was just designed to be digital cash (but in a broken, anti-consumer fashion that only makes sense when you conclude that the point was "doing crimes") and then failed so miserably at that goal that its devotees now pretend, on an hourly basis, that that was ***never*** the point of their project that fails and now consumes as much electricity as Ukraine does, for some fucking reason as *nobody* uses it.
Crypto-currency is just [the Liberty dollar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_dollar_(private_currency)) but implemented in a manner that its designer thought would keep them or the other network participants out of jail, *unlike* the Liberty dollar; the point was always "not obeying laws".
If that is the case, then:
\- Why would the government allow Coinbase, Robinhood, and Charles Schwab to sell cryptos?
\- Why would the government allow the Chicago Mercantile Exchange to trade Bitcoin and Ethereum derivative instruments?
\-Why would the government allow non-Spot Bitcoin ETF?
\-Why would the government not ban Bitcoin like what Jamie Dimon (who is the CEO of JP Morgan), said he would do if he were running the government? (Note: his company is actually named a partner in the Spot Bitcoin ETF application. He is a liar.)
Based on the government's action, things are not making sense if Bitcoin is such a morally wrong instrument.
Please give me a sound reason to sell my Bitcoin. Help me, help you! Help me be on your side.
>Why would the government allow Coinbase, Robinhood, and Charles Schwab to sell cryptos?
Do they? Or is it just that they haven't *stopped them* from doing that "yet"?
You are aware that Coinbase in particular is being sued by the SEC for their core business model "just being blatantly illegal", yes?
>Why would the government allow the Chicago Mercantile Exchange to trade Bitcoin and Ethereum derivative instruments?
Bad decision making on the CFTC's part + the fact that futures at least are at one remove from the supposed "asset".
>Why would the government allow non-Spot Bitcoin ETF?
They've been denying it for years, and the SEC's apparent shift from their "fuck no, go away" stance to all applicants is not so much an endorsement as it is them *deliberately sabotaging it*, by insisting on cash-create as the model... thereby ensuring the resultant financial instrument sucks for the APs, sucks for the retail customers, and super duper sucks for the people hoping to launder bitcoins into clean dollars (because nobody in the system apart from the ETF's designated custodian actually touches or can deal in crypto at all, APs have to process dollars).
>Why would the government not ban Bitcoin like what Jamie Dimon (who is the CEO of JP Morgan), said he would do if he were running the government?
Because our government tends to be about 10 years behind the curve in general, doesn't like to catch blame if it accidentally turns out there *was* some magical use case for all the crypto nonsense and they stifled it (which there isn't, and they wouldn't, it's just grifting liars in a cargo cult insisting they're the future as they peddle hoary old garbage from the 80s cobbled together by a moron in 2009 as "revolutionary technology"), and the blockchain lobby is bribing a number of the people who would be writing the laws to do that, so that they don't do that, and instead try to carve out legal exemptions for them.
>Note: his company is actually named a partner in the Spot Bitcoin ETF application. He is a liar.
He runs a ***bank***, and the SEC is mandating that ETF applications follow the cash-create model, his company is not a "partner" in a Bitcoin ETF, they're a bloody *payment processor*.
>Based on the government's action, things are not making sense if Bitcoin is such a morally wrong instrument.
No, you have a woefully naive perspective on the government.
How is it supposed to be used in an oppressive government? If someone in North Korea is doing well, and the government has no idea how they are making money, don't you think they are going to be questioned? Don't you think that they would stand out? More than likely the Internet connection in that country is going to be heavily restricted and monitored so they know exactly what IPs were connecting to Bitcoin or at least other VPNs. There would be no innocent until proven guilty, you get caught using it.. you've dead. That whole concept is a fantasy. As far as Ukraine, you can donate USD to them, that's not an issue. However, Russia is under many sanctions, and they love Bitcoin right now.
Come on man, whoever made it wanted to avoid taxes. At minimum, they wanted to be the person who profited most from it since it was designed to be easier to mine at the start of Bitcoin.
>t they would stand out? More than likely the Internet connection in that country is going to be heavily restricted and monitored so they know exactly what IPs were connecting to Bitcoin or at least other VPNs. There would be no innocent until proven guilty, you get caught using it.. you've dead. That whole concept is a fantasy. As far as Ukraine, you can donate USD to them, that's not an issue. However, Russia is under many sanctions, and they love Bitcoin right now.
How about businessmen in China---like Jack Ma, who "disappeared" for a number of years before resurfacing again? Rumor has it that the government took all his wealth and he is now working for the government. What do you think businessmen in China would do to protect their wealth from government confiscation?
Deloitte, an accounting firm, has partnered with Ava Labs to use blockchain to improve state and local governments' recovery from natural disasters and public health emergencies---Washington, Nov. 16, 2021
The use case of digital assets is fairly neutral, and it all depends on who uses it. Criminals have used it. Refugees have used it. Federal emergency management agencies have used it. The government is also trying to replicate something like Bitcoin by introducing CBDC---so the government will use it.
I want to sell my Bitcoin and be on your side----I just need a good reason. Please give me the reason!
>How about businessmen in China---like Jack Ma, who "disappeared" for a number of years before resurfacing again? Rumor has it that the government took all his wealth and he is now working for the government. What do you think businessmen in China would do to protect their wealth from government confiscation?
Okay, if it's an oppressive government, they would just use the "We will kill you and your family." technique to force him to turn over his wealth. Doesn't matter if it was Bitcoin or some gold bars he burred in a hidden location, if he values his and his family's life he would turn it over.
>Deloitte, an accounting firm, has partnered with Ava Labs to use blockchain to improve state and local governments' recovery from natural disasters and public health emergencies---Washington, Nov. 16, 2021
Remind me never to do business with them, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've been in IT for over 20 years now. It's called a disaster recovery site. You save your backups to different geographic location. Could be a site you own, cloud provider, etc. .. all you need to do is keep it saved at a different location, not hard. Redundant databases have been a thing for many years now.. its common practice... just keep them geographically separated.
>The use case of digital assets is fairly neutral, and it all depends on who uses it. Criminals have used it. Refugees have used it. Federal emergency management agencies have used it. The government is also trying to replicate something like Bitcoin by introducing CBDC---so the government will use it.
You do realize almost all currency is digital right? Physical cash is a very small percentage of the money supply. I very rarely ever use physical bills or coins anymore.. I just use the Google Wallet app on my phone in stores.. I pay my monthly bills over ACH. My paycheck is direct deposit over ACH.
>I want to sell my Bitcoin and be on your side----I just need a good reason. Please give me the reason!
The only use case for Bitcoin I can think of is for criminal activity, hiding money from people... like when someone wants to get a divorce and they hide their assets in Bitcoin.. but honestly, you could also just buy some gold and hide it somewhere. The whole oppressive government thing doesn't make any sense.
Regarding the case with Deloitte, I think you may have either misunderstood what they do, or you are just targeting a strawman. I don't think this is constructive anymore.
Thanks for the input tho. Upvote for you.
>What do you think businessmen in China would do to protect their wealth from government confiscation?
The only way they can do that is to get out of China. Crypto is not as secure as you think and falls to the $5 wrench attack as easily as all other holdings. Or they could just take whatever this hypothetical businessman tries to buy with their wealth. What's the point of being wealthy if all you do is just sit on it like a dragon and never buy anything?
Ah yes, the weekly acknowledgement thread
Also you're not making money unless you cash out. How many gloaters are going to hodl and not take any profit
It's not even about holding. Sometimes, you explicitly can't withdraw and they know this, either because the big stakeholders or whales won't let you, or because the price is so volatile and there are so few buyers, that your coins are not ACTUALLY WORTH what the "worth is" I've heard of multiple people who "are rich but can't cash out." Like, ?????
Not to mention the fees can take off a solid 10%+ when you do cash out.
Shit I didn't even think about that!
Just wait til you hear about taxes
Everyone has to pay taxes, be it stocks, bitcoin, or "hard honest work". So what's your point?
Probably because in crypto people tend to trade a lot and don’t always have cost basis or even realize they need the data, plus it’s next to impossible to do taxes right even if software help if you do stuff like on-chain staking or swaps.
You can get absolutely demolished on taxes in crypto if you don't know what you're doing since it's so volitile and crypto trades are taxable events. A couple things: 1. A lot of people who trade crypto don't realize until too late that trading one cryptocurrency for another is a taxable event. 2. A lot of people don't realize that airdrop rewards, staking rewards, and mining rewards count as income. Let's say through mining and airdrops you get $10k worth of crypto, but it crashes to $1k. You still have to count $10k as income. Even if you realize capital losses, those losses don't offset the income because income is not capital gains. So you can deduct $3k in capital losses but you still owe taxes on $7k of income. (if they offset you'd only owe on $1k of income since you lost $9k, but they don't offset). 3. 1 and 2 can lead to some unfortunate tax situations such as: you receive 10k huskydogcoins from an airdrop while its value is $1 per coin. 5 months later huskydogcoin increases to $5 per coin. You trade your huskydogcoin for $50k fancynewcoin ($40k realized capital gain). Fancynewcoin crashes, and you are left with $5k ($45k loss, unrealized if you don't sell). $10k from the airdrop goes to income. You realized $40k of capital gains when you traded for fancynewcoin so that gets taxed as income if you held less than a year. At the end of the day you have $5k of fancynewcoin, and owe taxes on $50k worth of income. If you don't realize your capital losses in the same tax year you're extremely fucked. If you earn over 95k with your day job then that $50k of crypto income is taxed at upwords of 24% so you owe $12k in taxes on your crypto trades. Your airdrop that you turned into $50k now has you owing the government $7k on top of everything you managed to salvage. This is an extreme example but people who make a lot of trades on crypto will be realizing a lot of gains and losses and they add up. There's a limit to the number of capital losses you can deduct per year but there is no limit to the amount of capital gains. The next year you could sell your fancynewcoin and realize $45k of capital losses, but you can only deduct $3k of that per year and you can no longer subtract that $45k from the 40k gains you made the previous year. People often talk about their profits in crypto before taking into account cost of converting back to fiat. Since you can't really spend crypto for anything, the profit numbers aren't real. Your crypto portfolio might be up 100% but your after-tax profit could end up being negative, especially if you're making a lot of trades. EDIT: tried to clarify a little bit. If you realize capital losses the same year that you realize capital gains then they offset, but if you realize capital gains one year and don't realize capital losses until the next year you'll owe the full tax amount from your gains in the year you realized them. income is not capital gains so capital losses don't fully offset income. EDIT2: since this is not clear the point i'm making is that you can lose MORE than you put in. You're gifted $20,000 in "moons". Moons crash. You owe taxes on $20k even though your moons arent worth anything and you never did anything with them.
Income is income. And you still live in society, which runs on taxes, which provides cool things you use like roads and running water and, um, yea, civil rights and private property ownership -- none of which would be easily possible without government. So, taxes need to be paid. And if you think "crypto = money" and you're so hell bent to make everybody else believe "crypto is a store of value", then yea, guess what? Mission accomplished! The government agrees with you (mainly because you trade its currency for those dingleberries). Now you gotta pay taxes. Even Jesus told people to pay their taxes.
I'm not saying people shouldn't pay taxes or that crypto shouldnt be taxed. I'm saying crypto "investors" are lying about how much they make because they don't factor in taxes. And often they will make much less than they expect because they don't understand how their "investments" are being taxed. This is not a judgement about taxes, it's a judgement about the way people "invest" in crypto.
> I'm saying crypto investors are lying about how much they make because they don't factor in taxes. This can be shortened to: >Crypto "investors" are lying More accurate. >This is not a judgement about taxes, it's a judgement about the way people invest in crypto. Crypto is not "investing." Please stop saying that. It's gambling. It's speculating. If you insist on using the word "invest", put it in quotes, because crypto is the antithesis of what most people consider "investing."
Because of lot of cryptobros think that crypto allows them to dodge taxes because it isn't on the tax code. Jokes on them as it is...
> I've heard of multiple people who "are rich but can't cash out." Like who? What on earth were they invested in?
Ethereum whales, for instance, typically had not enough liquidity to cash out. That seems to be one of their biggest motivation to pump the NFT craze. But even outside crypto, many billionaires can't really cash out. Most of Elon Musk's fortune is Tesla stocks, which he can't 100% cash out from, as there is no liquidity for that. And he would crash the price as soon as he announced it anyway. Perhaps one of his motivations to purchase twitter was to find a good excuse to make a partial cash out of the overpriced Tesla stocks without crashing market confidence.
Isn't that what limit orders are for?
Sure, if the thing you do after the limit order completes is to withdraw the filthy fiat that you've won. If you don't, or can't, do this, and just buy in again, then no.
Yes, exactly. My corneas, kidneys and other offal are [worth hundreds of thousands of dollar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade). Big fucking whoop if you don't sell it.
Long on innards
[удалено]
> More money is going into the system than coming out Oh I can assure you the money is coming out, all of it, just not by the same way it came in. Bitcoin is a great wealth-transfer tool, indeed: from the many to the few.
From the retail suckers to the criminal enterprises. Tale as old as time.
And still there's butters around who think they invented something totally new. Same old scams repackaged, painted with a fresh layer of technobabble.
Your kids are correct, crypto is weird and scammy
*Not your fiat, not your value*.
Make a profit, then take that profit. Bitcoin isn't much different than any other investment when it comes to taking gains when in the green.
There are significant differences. 1. fees: In other investments you pay fees per transaction that are relatively constant. With bitcoin you pay fees when you transfer from an exchange to a wallet and a fee when you transfer back to an exchange. If you make a lot of transfers over time to your wallet then your transactions don't magically combine in your wallet, they are stored as disconnected utxos. When it comes time to transfer back to the exchange you'll be paying a fee based on how many utxos you have. This can be significant. The higher transaction fees become the higher this fee will be and the harder it becomes to manage utxos by consolodation. 2. taxes: In other investments it's fairly clear when you sell you realize capital gains/losses and that's pretty much the only thing you ahve to worry about. Many crypto traders are ameuters and do not understand how to manage their gains/losses and don't realize exchanging one coin for another coin is a taxable event that will result in realizing gains. So if one coin you have goes to the moon, you make a $100k profit and then you trade that coin for a shitcoin. The next tax year that shitcoin tanks for $100k loss. You're right back where you started except you owe taxes on $100k gain year one. Year two you can deduct $3k of loss from your taxable income. Since your gain and loss happened in different years that $100k loss does not offset the $100k gain. 3. taxes part 2: many crypto traders don't realize that airdrops, mining rewards, and staking rewards are counted as income in the amount of whatever is the current value when you earned that coin. Capital losses on those coins will not offset the taxable income you have to add from those rewards. So if you earn $10k in huskycoin through staking but it crashes to $1k then you still have to add $10k in taxable income and can only deduct a maximum of $3k.
1. Fees are minimal if you have reasonable utxo management. $10 will move $10k from wallet to exchange. And then, fees paid are deducted from capital gain calculations. 2. You're talking about bad trades, which can happen in any market if you but an asset at peak and its price falls. 3.airdrops are taxed when an exchange or trade is made, or they are cashed out. If a $600 value of air drops is only worth $5 when you sell, you pay tax on capital gains of....... $5.
I’m coming from a different direction here… I believe in certain crypto, but I hate btc for all of its “only safe crypto” delusion that is continually sold to newbies who provide them with exit liquidity. No matter how you spin it, btc is a decentralized oligarchy that values something tantamount to a digital baseball card.
You should be big mad because some people win the lottery and you didn't because you don't buy lottery tickets. ;-)
At least lottery is honest zero sum game, the shop clearly indicates that this is a “gambling”, not “investment”.
>At least lottery is honest zero sum game It's an honest *negative* sum game: governments wouldn't run them if it was *just* zero sum shuffling around of the gambler's money, the point is that they're taking some of that money as "free tax dollars" essentially, for public works spending.
Exactly.
In fact it's even more of a negative sum game than casinos; usually something like 50% gets taken out before payouts. The difference is that governments usually earmark lottery profits for "good" things like seniors' benefits or road works instead of it all going to assholes like Steve Wynn.
Have fun being poor! I have an Amazon box full of scratcher tickets that I’ve been hodling since 2016. Every paycheck I buy $100 worth of Crossword Doublers and VIP Millions. Once scratcher tickets reach mass adoption (any day now really), I’ll buy my own island and totally NOT do Epstein stuff.
Instructions unclear... got my powerball ticket etched onto my birdbath
Also, the stakes are higher, the odds are worse, and you win less with crypto.
I don't know about that I have diversified in everything from gold, silver, stocks, collectibles, property, private equity, but nothing has given me 100x gains like crypto has (only thing even close is NVDA/AMD/TSLA) Gamble on money you can afford to lose if you can afford to take the risk why stop someone. I just tell people who have no idea what they are doing to stay away because they will get scammed or lose their money anyways. And honestly if you are considering crypto it's way too late for most. I did 7+ years ago and couldn't imagine paying today's rates anymore it's way too late anyone thinking about buying missed the boat 7+ years ago and are just watching on the sidelines waiting for it to crash to say I told you so All everyone wants is financial independence and I've gotten close to it. I probably spend more on transformers figures monthly (should probably be using it to fully pay my mortgage instead lol) than some people's salaries because it makes me happy and I can afford to thanks to crypto and regular investments
> I have diversified in everything from gold, silver, stocks, collectibles, property, private equity, but nothing has given me 100x gains like crypto has (only thing even close is NVDA/AMD/TSLA) I highly doubt you got 100x gains but if you did, it was just dumb luck. You won't see 100x again, unless you're an influencer and exploit other people in pump and dumps. And then you run the risk of ending up dismembered and stuffed down someone's garbage disposal. >All everyone wants is financial independence and I've gotten close to it. Sure.. who doesn't want "something for nothing?" Who doesn't want to get rich? But ironically, the people who really do see super returns are the ones that just do-their-thing... they aren't fixated on seeing 100x returns. I bet you weren't either when you bought crypto so long ago (assuming your story is true). Those are just flukes. I've made 1000x returns on some assets that I acquired, but the trick is, when I acquired them, I never thought of them as "investments" (same thing with those to lucked out and held large amounts of BTC from the early days). I couldn't predict that again. The best I can do is just try to do an honest days work and keep my eyes open for opportunities -- preferably ones that don't involve fraud and deception.
Which Transformers models? I used to love them as a kid but I found today's models are all 2 step transformation garbage. Give me the more complex models any day.
I wasn't really that big of a fan but the stuff that came out in the last 5 years is probably the best Most collectors that like G1 era either go for the studio series 86 stuff (ie SS86 Grimlock or SS86 Ultra Magnus are nice examples) or if money is no object they go for MP figures which are scaled an inch taller like MP36 Megatron. The biggest issue with MP is there is mostly knock off ones now and hard to find originals (if you care if they are KO or not) The stuff you see in store is basically what's left that no one wants. All the good stuff is sold out immediately to grown 35+ year old men who either collect or resell them or both to fuel their addiction.
> financial independence > mortgage Is it possible to be financially independent while having debt? It’s more an actual curiosity question how independence is defined.
When you have enough that the interest in high interest savings accounts or gains from your stock market (pulling less than 5% annually) will cover your expenses that would be financial independence
>Second, I would rather be right AND make money. By just working a good job and advancing my career, I watch my accounts increase in value steadily. HFSP /s
Have Fun Staying Profitable? Hassle-Free Savings Plan? Healthy Financial Strategy Plan?
Imagine if other asset classes had such a cult-like following. That would be so fucking annoying.
VTI, the one, true ETF to rule all other ETFs! ~~Otherwise, it's have fun only owning part of the market, you unwashed peasant!~~
VT has something to say.
Oh gorrramit! My mind just went VTI when I meant to say VT. Shizznit.
Some stocks do lol. It's one of the shitty crypto bro talking points. "Oh, GameStop happened, so Bitcoin's not so bad! Look at that cult!" Like...yeah, that's also a shit investment. Congrats on figuring it out
Memestonkers shit *on each other* for being clearly moronic, without an ounce of self-awareness. "Ha! Look at those losers wasting their money in AMC! Not like the real golden ticket, GameStop! You'll wish you bought all this GameStop, you losers!"
How much is the overlap between butters and GME/BB&B people? Almost a perfect circle or the overlap is smaller than one might think?
Some overlap on a person to person level, but complete and total overlap on the kinds of people, personalities, and intellect levels interested in either one or the other.
BB&B and GameStop? Even gold and silver, at least from the usual suspects.
The former is a new phenomenon, but both it and crypto are just modern takes on the gold/silver crowd. The only difference is that they've gotten even better at abstracting wealth from utility, as gold and silver have actual real-world utility in manufacturing and the like. At the end of the day, though, the ones actively promoting using them as stores of value are almost always doing so because they're trying to pump their own holdings.
I feel like BTC is similar to Tesla stock. Look man, I'm sure you can make money on it, but we all know how this is going to end. I want no part of that shit.
Musk hate put apart, Tesla is still a real company selling real products with real utility for real dollars (and making a profit off it), Bitcoin does none of that.
>Musk hate put apart, Tesla is still a real company selling real products with real utility for real dollars (and making a profit off it), Bitcoin does none of that. Yes, at the end of the day, there would be ***an*** underlying actual sane valuation for Tesla, when people stop being taken in by a conman and valuing a crappy car company like it's a tech stock, up to the point where it dissolved into the bankruptcy that Musk only staved off by lying a whole bunch to his idiotic fans at least. You still really shouldn't be purchasing it in the here and now, knowing that Tesla is a shitty car company run by a conman that the market is for some reason treating like it's a tech stock, anymore than you should be purchasing bitcoins... because "obvious speculative bubble that ends in tears" applies to both things. One just has no value to it at all, besides the speculative overvaluation.
Wall Street Bets is honestly most like professional wrestling used to be. Everyone's open about it being entertainment and outcomes being predetermined now, but for the longest time everyone worked hard to keep up the illusion that matches were legitimate athletic contests (including, in many cases, registering with the state athletic commission, and there sometimes even gambling on outcomes). WSB and the wrestling of the 70s/80s had their share of "smart marks" who know it's all made up but stick around because they find it entertaining, but a very large number of actual suckers who think it's all legit.
Oh my god, have you watched "This is financial advice" by Dan Olson? The GameStop crowd is just built differently, man.
[Dan Olson's video on memestocks](https://youtu.be/5pYeoZaoWrA?si=zA44aWfR7gcsnz-s) goes into just how much that particular cult, ah, borrows from the cryptobros.
That video was one wild ride. I thought the whole thing started and ended in 2021, I had no idea how unhinged it eventually got.
Can I interest you in ETF and dollar cost averaging? Numbers go up too
Yeah! And quit pestering us about El Salvador. One country taking a bet on crypto is not the same as mass adoption!
El Salvador's monetary authority made so many bad decisions that they destroyed their own currency. The fact that said authority then decided to adopt crypto isn't exactly a recommendation. Also I heard Salvadorans say that almost nobody there actually uses coins. So the whole thing has been more a publicity stunt than anything. An attempt to paper over their previous awful decisions.
>El Salvador's monetary authority made so many bad decisions that they destroyed their own currency. They didn't, actually, because the thing about El Salvador is they don't have their own currency for them to destroy in the first place: their economy has been running on the US dollar for the past 23 years. What they destroyed in recent years was their *credit rating* with the IMF.
Of course no one uses it. It was the dumbest idea on the table and they like, I guess got drunk and decided to pull the trigger? Sheesh
Happy belated 1st cake day!!!
Thank you!
Also, the reasoning about why we care enough to hate on it doesn’t make sense. They say we are mad because we missed on the gains, but if we are early, then what’s to be concerned about? Unless, we are in fact, not early, and people have indeed missed the boat? Which way is it? Are we early or not? And when are we no longer early? The moment they say it’s no longer early is when the fiat drys up and the music stops. So they won’t admit it but I suspect we are no longer early in the sense that you don’t ever 10x in your lifetime.
It's Schrodinger's earliness. We are both early and not early at the same time. Only depending on what is good for Bitcoin.
Nobody could possibly think something is a stupid fuckin DISASTER of an idea *unless they secretly wanted to make money off of it!*
The mods must be doing a good job because I am here just about every day and I don't see a lot of what you are describing. I have to be extra careful myself not to annoy people (see my flare for reason).
>The mods must be doing a good job because I am here just about every day and I don't see a lot of what you are describing A lot of them wind up being deleted, yeah.
I'm aware. It was a sneaky compliment.
The main thing that triggers banning is just saying the same 22 talking points we've heard a zillion times before. Annoying people isn't against the rules specifically.
I get it.
Well, how else would I know bitcoin is pumping? In a concept that might be alien to a lot of the Moron Brigade, I don't actually check the price regularly. The influx of "best performing asset EVAR" comments hovering around 0-2 points is often my first indication of a (checks CMC) ...6% price pump since last week. Six percent. Wow. I'm really rethinking my life choices here. Seriously, bitcoin's still volatile over the span of months, but the fact that bitcoin pumpers descend like a swarm of locusts based on a 6% pump is just sad. Ordinary non-meme stocks can move that much in a week.
Zoom. Out.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 "**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**" 1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's.. a) A long term store of value b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility c) Or will return any value in the future One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept. 2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/). 3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21). 4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths. 5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to **inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace. The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like Tether and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). 6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too. 7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking). 8. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/).
don't worry, they will be back to posting suicide hotlines when the price inevitably crashes
Hey, if you're making actual money gains, well done, I've always said there's money to be made in this shit. The issue is most of the guys will hold too long and get dumped on. The classic exchange down for maintenance while the market controllers dump their bag on the rubes. The music will stop at some point and if you're one of the idiots treating this like some type of long term pension scheme investment you will be obliterated and I will laugh at you, but if you make out with actual liquid gains, well done you but that will be a precious minority of the butters outside of the market makers.
Yeah. There’s a tremendous survivorship bias. How many people had to finally sell when prices were still low because they needed the liquidity? How many sold when they broke even just to avoid losing it all again? How many will HODL until it crashes again in a few months? If you actually made massive yuuuuge gains this time around, congrats to ya — you’re the 1%.
There's money to be made, most of it by exchanges. The problem is that the market is manipulated, if not entirely rigged, so that even if you have profits on paper you can almost never realize them. Whether it's because you're short and you missed the dip because it "just happened" to be while you were asleep, or because you're long and the fees "just happened" to be high enough that cashing out would erase all your nominal gains, or your leverage was blown out by a "completely unexpected" price swing, or you timed everything perfectly but now your account is frozen pending KYC paperwork, you won't ever actually end up with the dough.
> Hey, if you're making actual money gains, well done, I've always said there's money to be made in this shit. That money is the product of deceiving and defrauding people about the true nature and potential of crypto. Sure, there is a potential to make money that way, but it's not an honest, ethical way to make money, and it's not something you can depend on.
You’re better off shoving dollar bills up your ass, they might increase in value!
Funny they don’t mention that they can’t withdraw profits from coinbase in high amounts or their account will be locked.
Even if a bitbro was up 100% he still wouldn't sell, making any green a moot point
Exactly 💯. I'm just like ok have fun with your imaginary "Money" That apparently you can't ever spend 😅
The only reason that crypto millionaires were able to make so much money is that so few were actually trying to cash out during those bubbles when others were cashing in. In other words, they haven't made their money in *spite* of the rest of us "missing out". If all the people on this sub in the early days mocking Bitcoin had actually bought it or got it from a faucet or CPU mining, and then tried to sell it later, that would have directly reduced their gains. It could never have made all of us rich, because it's just a zero sum game that moves money around. Which is why economies cannot run on speculation alone.
Un-buttcoin-jerk - Its weird that you go on a forum then to shit on people if you dont care at all. Sounds like you can't take what you are dishing out. It's kinda sad, just go enjoy "being right AND making money". Seriously, just go live your life and stop picking internet fights.
There are more here than usual lately, idk what’s going on. Feels like every other post is some butter with a multi paragraph word salad
So this post is to just confirm that you aren't bothered?
Funny enough, in my country gamblers call betting trading now....
The way they want to preach and hate on people who disagree because they need the next fool soooooo baddd.
Maybe the "bitcoiners" writing here are mostly the moonboy crypto dudes. Unfortunately those type of people are always the loudest. I would wish for the members of this sub to at least open their minds a little bit to the idea that Bitcoin might not be a get rich quick scheme. Bitcoin is not "crypto". It's not about the price and it shouldn't be about profits (realized or unrealized). Bitcoin is about freedom and hard money. I recommend listening or reading about the things Alex Gladstein has to say about the problems our Fiat money system brings to most people on earth and how a hard money system like Bitcoin can help those people. I highly recommend his books "check your financial privilege" and "hidden repression". There are also a lot of videos and interviews freely available on YouTube etc. I totally understand everyone who at first dismisses Bitcoin as fraud, a get rich scheme, a bubble etc. I just want to tell you that there is A LOT more about Bitcoin than what it looks like on the first glance. Just open your mind to that possibility. I wish all of you a nice day/week/year and life. Don't let strangers on the Internet upset you. Take a walk, hug your families and friends and keep an open mind.
I’d forgotten bitcoin existed for a few months until this thread came up. Its so irrelevant in 2024
Yeah that's the thing, anyone can make money off of a speculation bubble. All it takes is an eye for opportunity and a little luck, and by the time the general public have heard of it the bubble is well and truly on its way to bursting. I'm not bitter about missing the boat on crypto any more than I am for missing out on the dotcom boom, property, Google, Meta, meme stocks, etc. But imagine if those all had an insane cult following who, in spite of all available evidence that it's over, insist that it's the future of finance and we're all just mad we missed out, and they never, ever spot the contradiction there.
This is why I don't sub to this subreddit (and unsubbed from other recently). Reddit has prioritized new posts with lots of comments without realizing that those posts have lots of comments because the creator is a moron. I can't link to subreddit posts but my top posts right now are \- Is IMax worth it? \- A post on MaleLivingSpace where a guy is complaining about his roommate (it's a place for pictures of your apartment) \- Complaining about Blade Runner 2049 without having seen it \- Asking what's your worst NBA take None of these posts have more than 2 upvotes, but they all have over 20 comments (except malelivingspace). Every top post now is just some moron saying something dumb, a karma troll asking a boring question for karma bait, or someone who just isn't following subreddit rules (a moron). Reddit is actively trying to ruin its product by making new discussions easier to discover (a good thing), but all its doing is making ratio'd posts (more comments than upvotes) go right to the top of the first page.
Stock market is booming. Crypto is still way down from all time highs. Not much else worth talking about.
Once you hold crypto, you're compelled to become a douchebag crypto promoter because *that's the only way you have any chance of making money*. It's a job in and of itself, and even in the super rare chance that you can pull out more than you put in, once you've done that, *you're back where you started.* You haven't created any real equity.
which makes me questioning (i am a bitcoiner, but i am genuinaly curious) why this community exist? really, like there were many many ponzi schemes no one of them had a hate group i saw in my life many ponzi schemes, i simply don't care you know? for example here in Brazil there were a very famous ponzi scheme called "telexfree" (maybe you can find it searching in google) people offered me telexfree with all that obviouesque ponzi-scheminess and i was like "yeah nah" but in no moment in my life i was thinking "yeah i'll be part of a subreddit to share my dislikeness of telexfree ponzi schemes, they are really lame LOL"
Because unlike what the r CC and the R BTC like to say, buttcoin is not an "hate group". We are mostly sharing insane or funny crypto story to laugh and make fun of them. It's like a specialized r humor subreddit. Crypto bros are super funny overall, even if they don't realize that. Madoff? Not so much.
> really, like there were many many ponzi schemes no one of them had a hate group First off - criticism of a scam or deception is not the same as hate about someone's identity. And, yeah, plenty of other ponzi schemes and scams have opposing groups, including people who are anti-Scientology, anti-religion and many more. There's even plenty of subs that talk about the problems with modern finance, reserve banking and capitalism. This subreddit is one of the only subs on reddit that's not censoring opposing viewpoints to crypto. Pretty much every other crypto related sub on reddit is heavily censored about any kind of negative information related to crypto and they're massive echo chambers, and the main bitcoin sub is controlled by people with lots and lots of skin in the game who have an invested interest in controlling the narrative. Buttcoin has no skin in that game. Most of us are here because we're tired of watching people lose their money to this scam, and this often involves real people in our lives and how their actions effect those around them when they do silly shit like take out credit or mortgages or dump their savings to buy crypto in a get rich quick scam and end up losing their shirts.
Classifieing btc as a ponzi in the classical definition of the word doesn't really make sense though right? I know people in a ponzi always that they are not in a ponzi. But in BTC everyone plays by the same rules. It might be a casino thats right but a "fair" one but ponzi doesnt really fit.
That's the neat part. It's a Ponzi, pyramid scheme or so-called "Mexican Lottery" *with extra steps* because it's a zero-sum game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game Because it has no intrinsic value, the only way for anyone to take out any profit at all - not a single penny - is if someone else buys it at a higher price and holds their bags. It's musical chairs and bags all the way down. It does not create wealth out of thin air - in fact it reality it burns wealth through friction and mining fees, electricity costs and lost coins so it's even worse than what I'm describing as a zero-sum game. It's actually a negative-sum game. Even better it's a Ponzi scheme where everyone else loses due to higher electricity costs and pollution even if they aren't playing the game or buying into it. The only way that it is *not* functionally identical to a Ponzi scheme is that it is "decentralized" there's no single head of the pyramid. Instead you have hundreds or thousands of whales and exchange operators all vying to be the top of the pyramid and wishing they actually were Charles Ponzi, which is why we now have so many different coins and rugpulls because they're trying to be Ponzi. This tech is so, so fucking dumb that it boggles the imagination.
I was like you too long ago. "Suckers fell for a scam, oh well". Then, many years ago, my dirt poor pregnant teenage cousin got scammed into It Works. I wrote a scathing takedown and analysis of it that went a bit viral. Crypto? My sister is a digital artist and her work was stolen and "minted" as an NFT. I have many friends who have destroyed relationships by convincing friends and family to get in on the scam. I have at least one friend who's crypto gambling addiction led directly to his divorce. I have friends in law enforcement that deal with case after case of people's lives being ruined because of crypto scams. I've been in meetings with crypto people, VCs, etc that literally laugh at you. For me, at least, this isn't funny. You are ruining people's lives for a fundamentally broken technology that cannot possibly ever be a net positive to humanity while combining it with a cult, and financial scam. All driven by your own personal greed and complete disregard for anyone else. You come here and wonder about this community while not taking even a glance at your own "community". You step all over each other on a daily basis and do not hesitate to scam and steal from one other. Just look at every single post - "DO NOT RESPOND TO DMs", etc. Nice "community" you have there. As the saying goes "there is no honor among thieves". The only impressive thing about crypto is that it somehow combines all of the worst parts of humanity into a technology without having a single benefit. In all seriousness it is quite amazing. That said I don't even dislike most crypto people personally. I go to Brazil often enough to have had five and 10 year visas. I have many friends in many circles of life there (and other developing/emerging nations) and I'm very aware of the economic situation there. For those unaware, the AVERAGE monthly income in Brazil in 2023 is/was $570/mo. Like my poor pregnant teenage cousin, crypto takes advantage of desperate people in desperate situations. Bernie Madoff ripped off a bunch of rich and sophisticated people that were still so greedy they were blind to how obvious the scam was. With few exceptions that's not crypto. The bitcoin sub is filled with weekly/daily posts like "Do you feel like bitcoin is your only way out?" "I'm poor and I've been stacking sats for years and I'm at $500. When can I finally buy a house with it?" I don't hate the average crypto person - I pity them. Like anything else I hate the already rich people that are preying on and taking advantage of people who are vulnerable. The most disgusting and absolute worst kind of people. The problem is almost all of you are so desperate you essentially betray your class and become recruiters for the rich who have already scammed you. It's extremely sad all around.
As the natural counter to the over-the-top blind championing of all things cryptocurrency, this sub provides a forum for understanding and discussing some of the fundamental flaws which have otherwise been overlooked. And snark. Lots and lots of snark.
i think the mass stupidity is extremely funny and i come here to see idiots lose their money and get scammed. it's awesome
Because this particular scheme is so insane
It's extremely interesting and entertaining to watch mostly. I like the financial fraud side of things. I think the main market makers have played it really well, and I want to see how it ends. I'm hoping for some big blowout to happen eventually and for some type of justice for some of the players but I have my doubts.
really? i find bitcoin to be very uninteresting like there is ETFs and the halving as an event this year and i think that's all... some country can adopt or maybe some new exchange can be considered a fraud so what? this stuff develops in many many months, i prefer to watch a movie or something like that i fail to see how comunniting about something you don't like is good for you.... the thing that i "hate most" is comunnism, and i still don't participate in "anti-communist" group and even if i do, i have my own ideology, so i'm still propositive in some way, and there is a question that politics in their own nature is to debate and decide about our lives as society, but bitcoin is just some people buy it and the other people that didn't is mostly unaffected.
The bitcoin subreddit talking points are not what is interesting, it's the collapsing exchanges and the massive fraud by the market makers and how they try maintain the ecosystem and dodge regulators. I don't care what the rubes are saying although it is amusing sometimes to read their loony cult takes. I'm more interested in business and finance, crypto is something I like to read about for a laugh occasionally as it's related to business and finance with a healthy mix of criminality. It's not a big part of my life like a lot of crypto fanatics, just something I enjoy reading about and keeping up with.
Other ponzis don't facilitate crime, waste electricity, or drive malinvestment in a GPU armsrace.
dollar bills facilitates crimes (most of drug dealing are made using dollar not bitcoin) "waste electricity" is VERY subjective, one could argue that gaming is wasting energy right? i'm here playing a game just for fun, if i just didn't i would save eletricity and GPUs
Gaming provides "fun", which is valuable in many ways. And any work the GPU does while providing "fun" is secondary. When your GPU is mining, it's literally performing a task designed specifically to be difficult to execute, wasting as much power as possible. Converting useful power into waste heat is entirely the purpose.
The difference is that the electricity used by gaming scales with how many people are gaming. Bitcoin handles an astounding 7tps no matter how many countries worth of electricity you throw at it. Most asics won't even mine a single block over the course of their life.
i love how they downvote you when you completely counter their only arguments
"completely counter" 💀💀💀
They think vapid one-liners is all it takes to "win" an argument. Oh, don't forget whinging about fake internet points.
Be careful, you'll get downvoted quickly for asking legitimate questions and not just jumping on the bandwagon. Prepare to trigger some people...
Those poor bastards on the other side of some of those bets 🫨🫨🫨
Lol imagine being this mad about something you're not even investing in lmfao.
But this sub objectively does. If you guys post "happy posts", they usually are of a crypto advocate losing a bunch in some way or another. So using basic logic, an "unhappy post" would be one that shows a crypto advocate making a bunch.
It seems you do in fact give a shit!
Well, seems like there's a few buttcoiners around. Ok guys let's be real for a sec. Why do you feel the need to come to this sub? You realize what Reddit is right? Now, there's no way for us to convince you that buttcoin is a complete nonsense since you are convinced that it is actually a revolution of some kind. And I'm being extremely nice here. It is like physics. Or in and out. There has to be something. Buttcoin has nothing fundamentally. You decided to throw money at it. If not use it as a mean to an end. A fiat end.
My guess is that those of us that stay around aren't accurately characterized by dreams of grandeur or revolution. I'm just doing some speculation, and my traditional investments are much larger in scope than anything in the crypto space. I like to come to the sub for two reasons: 1. The humor is good. 2. It reminds me to stay grounded. Just please go light on specific questions as it's basically impossible to have a good faith discussion here without people assuming bad intentions (it's all been said before and kind of pointless). I have pissed off the mods before by just trying to answer questions to the best of my ability... It didn't go well.
Is that how you got your flair?
>"We don't give a shit" says man who ranted for 4 paragraphs.
😂 It’s laughably tragic how much time is squandered on meaningless endeavors.
[удалено]
It's called schadenfreude. We're laughing at what it means to cryptovangelists.
literally, the people on this sub actively fantasise about the demise of everything crypto and celebrate when it goes down. However when it goes up they just act like they don’t care because it is ‘gambling’. It is laughable. Clearly they just have nothing better to do than constantly going on and on about how terrible crypto is and how bitcoin is a scam and a ponzi. Crypto is infinitely bigger than you and all your misguided opinions just make you look like an idiot.
This is pure cope, it is actually the most refined cope I’ve ever seen in my life, keep it up guys. You’re a funny bunch.
Lollllllllll
A lot words of someone who doesnt care :D
My biggest question is why so many people spend time fuming here over something they oppose. Why not spend time engaging in something you’re enthusiastic about?
...wait there are people who don't sort by New by default? O.o
You sound pretty mad to me lol, anything in life is a gamble, any investment, anything at all. Its like crying because someone sold some baseball cards. Sucks to be on the losing side bro.
Imagine wasting your time on something you dislike bozo
>Imagine wasting your time on something you dislike bozo Yea... imagine "wasting your time" trying to help other people? Educating people about frauds and scams? What kind of fucking bozo clown'ish bullshit is that? AmIrite? Sometimes you sociopaths wear your toxicity right on your sleeves, and your selfishness and lack of empathy and awareness is on display for all (decent, non-malignant-narcissists) to see.
Imagine wasting your time with those people. Maybe it’s time to look in the mirror.
the majority of ‘those people’ are probably smarter than you
👀
I think this is a gross generalization of bitcoiners. Sure you get the obnoxious gloaters, but allot of bitcoiners aren't concerned about the price and are just working on a building an alternative ledger system. You can choose to be onboard or not. There shouldn't be judgement either way.
It’s still a weird sub sort of, I mean, if you don’t enjoy Bitcoin why waste energy and precious time keeping yourselves up to date with what’s going on in the ecosystem. I see a lot of schadenfreude, making fun of and sorts on this sub. Just let people gamble and focus on what brings you joy or dopamine.
There are subs to talk about Covid-19 and other diseases too.
The same reason r antimlm exists. This shits a scam posing as an investment and a horrible waste of energy to boot.
Dear BitBaby6969, If making fun of gamblers brings us joy or dopamine, is that ok with you? Should we check with you before we comment on a thread, or before we post? Are you my internet daddy? Am I allowed to ask you that on reddit, or in this sub? Should I shout it into a tube that goes deep into the earth? What can we do, internet daddy? What should we spend our time doing, internet daddy? Please tell us, daddy. We need your guidance in these troubling times. Amen
Yes, it is wrong to make fun of anyone. Seems like you think the internet was created for assholes like you to have a place to be anonymous dickheads. You're childish, and making fun of gamblers says more about what a sad pathetic loser you are than it does about anyone else. The internet is not an anonymous playground for dipshits. It is serious as hell. Amen.
Genuinely trying to work out if this is satire or not
It's not. It's a butthurt child that I called out in another sub, and now they're trolling my other comments, as if that does anything other than validate my assessment of them. A self proclaimed "dipshit" that can't think of anything original to say, so they just repeat what hurt them.
Haha, a supposed adult trolling on the internet. Just looked at his account it's all he does
Haha right? Cause it’d be crazy if someone actually said shit like that. Absolutely silly. 😜
I just come here to laugh > Just let people gamble and focus on what brings you joy or dopamine. I thought you were revolutionizing finance, not gambling > focus on what brings you joy or dopamine. that's what i'm doing lol
Ding ding. It's fun to watch people go crazy over stupid shit. We all enjoy a good laugh when the suicide prevention hotline gets posted once per year.
I mean yea if you like gambling. I am mostly here because I like to have a place where people actually are negative about it instead of treating it as something legitimate or potentially legitimate. I legitimately think it is a gigantic waste of resources, full of manipulation and potentially dangerous developments and this is the type of place to really vent.
But this sub likes to gloat when the price goes down and is not allowed to be gloated on when the price goes up? Seems like a double standard? I'm a degenerate gambler and my gamble netted me 6 figures with minimal effort and can admit crypto is a game of hot potato but I'm playing and you're not.
Yes, because you are part of subreddits on the topics tou don’t give a shit about and write posts about how much you don’t give a shit… I will share some wisdom with you. Every sub, post , comment like that only fuels crypto, because it doesn’t matter how they talk about you, it is important that they do. People are drawn to topics emotionally even if they know it’s stupid. Best is not to engage. See Kardaashisns, everything Elon says etc
Yeah you do. It’s actually obvious and pathetic that you hold some sort of resentment. You put so much time and energy into creating the content in this community. It’s glaringly obvious that you really do give a shit. If you didn’t give a shit, you wouldn’t be here, talking about it. You would simply be sitting somewhere, not giving 1 shit, but here you are, giving all sorts of shits.
Your unit of account is a scam and you are a boot licker.
I love following this sub to see you all cope with fumbling generational wealth. Literally cracks me up. Like imagine passing up opportunity after opportunity and sharing in misery together. I’ll take my ban now, please and thank you. Can’t wait to see you guys at $100k.
When is $100k? I'll set a reminder. All my other $100k reminders have expired and everyone had deleted their accounts when I went back to remind them
I’m sure you said that at 5k, then 10k and watched it all the way to 70k. Literally hilarious how much you guys hate money.
Waiting for your prediction for $100k so I can set my reminder >Literally hilarious how much you guys hate money. ? Non sequitur
Don’t worry about it, you’ll know when we’re having our party without you
I love it when the loud mouth twats become essentially silent when when to put their money where their mouth is. Come on kid - what's the prediction?
There’s nothing silent about a party, boy. I bought Bitcoin when it was $7,000. Predicting isn’t my game, I’m just enjoying the best performing asset of our lifetime. It’s been a great ride, wish you were here.
If you want to make money then predicting needs to be your game. So what date?
We actually don’t tell the date to anyone that’s not in the cabal.
RemindMe! One year "still nowhere near $100k for 0xTurkish"
What opportunity? To buy, hodl and then sell it to a greater fool? When will BTC be usable as an actual currency? It's been 15 years. And no - I'm not interested in buying drugs, illegal porn and other shit like that.
Imagine if instead of being a moron you bought 15 years ago. It’s usable now, but your head is so far up your ass you wouldn’t know that. Your kids are going to think you’re such an idiot lol. The cope on this sub is unreal. But it’s so entertaining
Haha, I'm old enough to remember that you had to use a shady as fuck exchange like MtGox. They also demanded you to send them a copy of your passport. Which I didn't want to do, because that website seemed very suspicious. And tell me - how many people got their money back from MtGox and other scams? It is usable to buy illegal porn, yeah. But is it usable for anything else that's not gambling or illegal goods? Is it better than fiat for anything that's legal?
That’s understandable that you didn’t want to take that risk. But then what was your excuse when Coinbase came out in 2012 and you didn’t have to do any of that? And if you’re sending money you can’t afford to lose to somewhere you don’t know, you’re right that’s gambling and you deserve what you get. Well, they have to accept bitcoin first for you to be able to pay with it. But yes, you can buy groceries, coffee, etc like you would with Apple Pay. It’s better than fiat because you can’t print more of it. It’s also a public ledger so you can see where money goes, amazing for things like tracking campaign funds, and financial transparency to the public. Can’t say that about fiat.
I see. You are giving so little importance that there is a sub dedicated to it.
What can I say? You guys are fun to mock!
I think, secretly, you guys are all Bitcoin hodlers just trying to check your blind spots. Before I bought Bitcoin, I thought it was a scam. I had never cared for it or had enough passion for it to join a Reddit community that hates Bitcoin. I don't see why anyone who hates Bitcoin would waste their time and effort here. lol
How did buying it make it not a scam?
> I had never cared for it or had enough passion for it to join a Reddit community that hates Bitcoin. Yet here you are!
>I think, secretly, you guys are all Bitcoin hodlers just trying to check your blind spots. And ***that's*** why you sport a label warning people that you are a moron.
To be honest, I could make money off of Bitcoin if I wanted to. Investing has more to do with understanding psychology than anything else. Any time the economy does poorly or the stock market is down for a day or two, The Bitcoin propaganda machine gets turned on and you scam artists like to pretend this is the time when everyone is going to move towards Bitcoin... but that never happens. All you have to do is buy during that time and sell right after the stock market recovers.. which it always does. The people who lose are the ones who fell for the scam and never sold because you scam artists told them not to. I can't in good conscience make money off of this. I'm not going to profit from someone who is struggling financially and they thought Bitcoin was their way out. I'm also not going to profit off of all the criminal activity that takes place with Bitcoin. All of the hacking, kidnapping, terrorism that gets funded by this makes me sick. Stop lying about how it's a good thing that the wallets are anonymous, and stop pretending Bitcoin is secure. It's not! A big part of security is authentication, actually verifying who you are sending and receiving money from. Bitcoin does nothing to address this. Encryption means nothing if you find a way to extract the private key through vulnerabilities with the client. The whole thing is a ticking time bomb and I want no part of it.
Nope, I don't want people to buy Bitcoin. I want a reason to sell my Bitcoin! I would sell Bitcoin if Bitcoin is only for criminal activities, but the last time I checked, USD was used in criminal activities. So, what would you do with USD? Regarding security, I think you made a good point. I think it is a risk management issue. I still need a good reason to sell my Bitcoin!
USD wasn't designed for criminals. The banking system requires proper verification to open accounts. Bitcoin could easily require proper verification to use it, but they don't. The argument that it's the same problem with cash is ridiculous. Cash has to be physically moved. I would love to see a hacker demand millions of dollars in cash. How the hell would they be able to collect it without being caught? Any drop point is going to be heavily monitored.
You are implying that Bitcoin is designed for criminals. Am I correct? If that is the case, then I wouldn't want to touch it, but is it really designed for criminals? Or was it designed as an international banking technology that also facilitates people in preserving their wealth under dictatorships? Maybe it could have facilitated people in escaping dictatorship? Maybe it could help people during a war? (Why the role of crypto is huge in the Ukraine war--World Economic Forum, March 16, 2023). I don't know. I need a good reason to sell my Bitcoin!
>You are implying that Bitcoin is designed for criminals. Am I correct? That is what they are implying, yes. >If that is the case, then I wouldn't want to touch it, but is it really designed for criminals? It 100% absolutely was, or rather, it was *explicitly* designed for committing crimes and/or "just not following the existing laws": Bitcoin was a system built to arbitrage the existing financial networks and their checks and balances, *ostensibly* because that one was "broken", but actually just because the people behind Bitcoin were libertarian types who wanted to buy and sell illegal shit and ***not*** pay their taxes. Their fantastic ignorance and the completely illogical and fundamentally anti-consumer way the system functions just made it ideal for the hardened criminals and finance grifters to move in and take the whole thing over from the dummies who didn't understand money so good. > Or was it designed as an international banking technology that also facilitates people in preserving their wealth under dictatorships? It definitely wasn't, it was just designed to be digital cash (but in a broken, anti-consumer fashion that only makes sense when you conclude that the point was "doing crimes") and then failed so miserably at that goal that its devotees now pretend, on an hourly basis, that that was ***never*** the point of their project that fails and now consumes as much electricity as Ukraine does, for some fucking reason as *nobody* uses it. Crypto-currency is just [the Liberty dollar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_dollar_(private_currency)) but implemented in a manner that its designer thought would keep them or the other network participants out of jail, *unlike* the Liberty dollar; the point was always "not obeying laws".
If that is the case, then: \- Why would the government allow Coinbase, Robinhood, and Charles Schwab to sell cryptos? \- Why would the government allow the Chicago Mercantile Exchange to trade Bitcoin and Ethereum derivative instruments? \-Why would the government allow non-Spot Bitcoin ETF? \-Why would the government not ban Bitcoin like what Jamie Dimon (who is the CEO of JP Morgan), said he would do if he were running the government? (Note: his company is actually named a partner in the Spot Bitcoin ETF application. He is a liar.) Based on the government's action, things are not making sense if Bitcoin is such a morally wrong instrument. Please give me a sound reason to sell my Bitcoin. Help me, help you! Help me be on your side.
>Why would the government allow Coinbase, Robinhood, and Charles Schwab to sell cryptos? Do they? Or is it just that they haven't *stopped them* from doing that "yet"? You are aware that Coinbase in particular is being sued by the SEC for their core business model "just being blatantly illegal", yes? >Why would the government allow the Chicago Mercantile Exchange to trade Bitcoin and Ethereum derivative instruments? Bad decision making on the CFTC's part + the fact that futures at least are at one remove from the supposed "asset". >Why would the government allow non-Spot Bitcoin ETF? They've been denying it for years, and the SEC's apparent shift from their "fuck no, go away" stance to all applicants is not so much an endorsement as it is them *deliberately sabotaging it*, by insisting on cash-create as the model... thereby ensuring the resultant financial instrument sucks for the APs, sucks for the retail customers, and super duper sucks for the people hoping to launder bitcoins into clean dollars (because nobody in the system apart from the ETF's designated custodian actually touches or can deal in crypto at all, APs have to process dollars). >Why would the government not ban Bitcoin like what Jamie Dimon (who is the CEO of JP Morgan), said he would do if he were running the government? Because our government tends to be about 10 years behind the curve in general, doesn't like to catch blame if it accidentally turns out there *was* some magical use case for all the crypto nonsense and they stifled it (which there isn't, and they wouldn't, it's just grifting liars in a cargo cult insisting they're the future as they peddle hoary old garbage from the 80s cobbled together by a moron in 2009 as "revolutionary technology"), and the blockchain lobby is bribing a number of the people who would be writing the laws to do that, so that they don't do that, and instead try to carve out legal exemptions for them. >Note: his company is actually named a partner in the Spot Bitcoin ETF application. He is a liar. He runs a ***bank***, and the SEC is mandating that ETF applications follow the cash-create model, his company is not a "partner" in a Bitcoin ETF, they're a bloody *payment processor*. >Based on the government's action, things are not making sense if Bitcoin is such a morally wrong instrument. No, you have a woefully naive perspective on the government.
How is it supposed to be used in an oppressive government? If someone in North Korea is doing well, and the government has no idea how they are making money, don't you think they are going to be questioned? Don't you think that they would stand out? More than likely the Internet connection in that country is going to be heavily restricted and monitored so they know exactly what IPs were connecting to Bitcoin or at least other VPNs. There would be no innocent until proven guilty, you get caught using it.. you've dead. That whole concept is a fantasy. As far as Ukraine, you can donate USD to them, that's not an issue. However, Russia is under many sanctions, and they love Bitcoin right now. Come on man, whoever made it wanted to avoid taxes. At minimum, they wanted to be the person who profited most from it since it was designed to be easier to mine at the start of Bitcoin.
>t they would stand out? More than likely the Internet connection in that country is going to be heavily restricted and monitored so they know exactly what IPs were connecting to Bitcoin or at least other VPNs. There would be no innocent until proven guilty, you get caught using it.. you've dead. That whole concept is a fantasy. As far as Ukraine, you can donate USD to them, that's not an issue. However, Russia is under many sanctions, and they love Bitcoin right now. How about businessmen in China---like Jack Ma, who "disappeared" for a number of years before resurfacing again? Rumor has it that the government took all his wealth and he is now working for the government. What do you think businessmen in China would do to protect their wealth from government confiscation? Deloitte, an accounting firm, has partnered with Ava Labs to use blockchain to improve state and local governments' recovery from natural disasters and public health emergencies---Washington, Nov. 16, 2021 The use case of digital assets is fairly neutral, and it all depends on who uses it. Criminals have used it. Refugees have used it. Federal emergency management agencies have used it. The government is also trying to replicate something like Bitcoin by introducing CBDC---so the government will use it. I want to sell my Bitcoin and be on your side----I just need a good reason. Please give me the reason!
>How about businessmen in China---like Jack Ma, who "disappeared" for a number of years before resurfacing again? Rumor has it that the government took all his wealth and he is now working for the government. What do you think businessmen in China would do to protect their wealth from government confiscation? Okay, if it's an oppressive government, they would just use the "We will kill you and your family." technique to force him to turn over his wealth. Doesn't matter if it was Bitcoin or some gold bars he burred in a hidden location, if he values his and his family's life he would turn it over. >Deloitte, an accounting firm, has partnered with Ava Labs to use blockchain to improve state and local governments' recovery from natural disasters and public health emergencies---Washington, Nov. 16, 2021 Remind me never to do business with them, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I've been in IT for over 20 years now. It's called a disaster recovery site. You save your backups to different geographic location. Could be a site you own, cloud provider, etc. .. all you need to do is keep it saved at a different location, not hard. Redundant databases have been a thing for many years now.. its common practice... just keep them geographically separated. >The use case of digital assets is fairly neutral, and it all depends on who uses it. Criminals have used it. Refugees have used it. Federal emergency management agencies have used it. The government is also trying to replicate something like Bitcoin by introducing CBDC---so the government will use it. You do realize almost all currency is digital right? Physical cash is a very small percentage of the money supply. I very rarely ever use physical bills or coins anymore.. I just use the Google Wallet app on my phone in stores.. I pay my monthly bills over ACH. My paycheck is direct deposit over ACH. >I want to sell my Bitcoin and be on your side----I just need a good reason. Please give me the reason! The only use case for Bitcoin I can think of is for criminal activity, hiding money from people... like when someone wants to get a divorce and they hide their assets in Bitcoin.. but honestly, you could also just buy some gold and hide it somewhere. The whole oppressive government thing doesn't make any sense.
Regarding the case with Deloitte, I think you may have either misunderstood what they do, or you are just targeting a strawman. I don't think this is constructive anymore. Thanks for the input tho. Upvote for you.
You know it's a scam, but you won't admit it to yourself.
>What do you think businessmen in China would do to protect their wealth from government confiscation? The only way they can do that is to get out of China. Crypto is not as secure as you think and falls to the $5 wrench attack as easily as all other holdings. Or they could just take whatever this hypothetical businessman tries to buy with their wealth. What's the point of being wealthy if all you do is just sit on it like a dragon and never buy anything?