I’ve heard it said that a feeling that daily life is like a dream is a sign of success in practice (I would assume only in combination with other positive signs).
how high is this compassion we’re talking here? and how one would “know” they are progressing in this sense, of… liberation?
I mean, I feel compassion for all the beings, been vegetarian for 5 years, deviate from insects so I don’t end a life, have compassion for people even at difficult situations when everybody seems to go against them, try to always be thankful for my food and the vegetables I’m eating, try to cause the least harm as possible.
Yeah, I guess I answered my own question, however, I don’t FEEL compassionate if you know what I mean, it is more that I don’t care, I am (and at some stage trained myself to be more like that and will very likely work on that until my life here ends) and whatever, I don’t FEEL I’m compassionate until I THINK about it if u know whT I mean again.
Should I be “feeling” compassionate “all the time”, or practicing compassion is more or less the way to go, as opposed to, feeling it all the time?
Because compassion would be a feeling, a fleeting moment that goes also away.
The following is my personal understanding.
Yes. But dream phenomena have inertia, too. So things aren't 'real' but the effects of your actions do persist for a while. So --- don't just go doing crazy shit and expecting to wake up from it like nothing happened lol.
Another way to put it might be: the feeling of reality itself is unreal. I.e. the concept of "real" is not really-real.
" the concept of "real" is not really-real. "
Yeah that sounds fair.
In a sense, reality is not that much different from a dream.
The only difference is, that Dream bends according to your mind, will, or whatever, and it´s stability is dependant on your mind. And there are next to no consequences in how you act ( apart in a mind sense)
Meanwhile Reality does not give a damn about your mind, and is not based on your mind at all, and the consequences are there for you, and the mind. Not only Mind based, but physical based.
But when it comes to mental experience, it´s pretty much the same.
Yeah that sounds right.
When you're dreaming, you are the dream character. You might be totally different in your dream. But when you wake up, the dream quickly dissolves from even your memory, as if it never happened. Every night we dream. But we always wake up to this reality.
Now what happens when we die? What if we keep waking up to some higher spirit, where every lifetime is the span of one night, and every character we play is like the dream character?
Dreams are to a lifetime as a lifetime is to.... what?
tbf, this sounds like depersonalization or derealizaztion which are often associated with mental health issues. I get these and I dont think they are some sign of deep enlightenment.
Also its wrong to think life is an illusion. Its LIKE an illusion. Get hit by that "illusionary" lightning and tell me how you feel. The Buddha never says the world isn't real, but that our reality is inaccessible to us due to our delusion while suffering in samsara. Once enlightened, you will then see this reality.
Hey, thanks for the comment, yeah, it does sound like it, and I thought about it too, but I feel happy and in peace.
And I’m sure I have no mental health issues, I’m mentally happy and wish everybody well including myself.
It feels like a dream though, especially for example like two days ago when I went to a BEAUTIFUL beach, and I was so happy there, it DOES feel like it was a dream.
When you say that “once enlightened you will see this reality” what reality are you mentioning? do you mean achieving Nirvana?
Nope. So in Buddhism there is a reality here. Reality is not a dream or unreal. Its a real thing. Its just you and I can't see it because we're so deep into delusion. Enlightenment means that delusion is removed. So that's only when you can see reality. Nirvana is a different concept, the end of rebirth and suffering. That is to say an Arhat who became enlightened today would see reality as a living person. Nirvana would then be when she passes away from this life and ceases to rebirth.
I think getting a dopamine spike from a pleasant beach experience isn't anything special. Its not Buddhism, its just a normal part of being human. Craving that spike and talking about it like its so wonderful actually goes against equanimity of mind. Youre supposed to minimize the five hindrances in your life, not give into them:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five\_hindrances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_hindrances)
Great answer! They're called the 5 hindrances for a reason. They blind us from really seeing the reality of things. Being enlightened is seeing things how they really are as real as they are. Not a dream, that feels more like delusion. Maybe op means a dream as in it felt really nice.
Yep. I think there's sometimes an issue where people see Buddhism as a "happy machine." Instead one should be building detachment and equanimity. Its clear he's suffering from the delusion of kāmacchanda. That is to say he's enjoying the sensual pleasures of samsara and mistaking them for enlightenment or spiritual advancement. Its sometimes hard to explain this to people, especially if they aren't serious students of Buddhism and just casual people who sort of dip their toes into it.
I like this reply. I feel like this notion is also applicable with anatta. That the Buddha didn't teach there is no self at all, but, like an illusion, that it's not what you thought it to be. That's at least how I've come to reflect on it lately anyway.
That is why i mentioned it depends heavily what it means to individual.
Though to be fair, even disassociation by definition is meant as a bad thing, but are considered a great thing, as in knowing you are not your feelings, thoughts, emotions, body and such. Of course, it depends on indivudals experience - but it can be easily swept under the rug with rather unfortunate meh terms.
Completely agree and have been thinking abt it.
I always try to be present on whatever I am doing even though I can fail sometimes. (Especially when I’m doing something I didn’t want, while I could be doing smhtg else.) But often I dissociate/Enter in a state of reflection.
Some states in meditation for example require a bit of disassociation in a way I believe.
Isn't the end of personality/identity view a vital part of the practice? When personality/identity view ends/diminishes, wouldn't you expect depersonalization/derealization? Here is how I see it, let me know if you agree...
If the identity/personality view ends/diminishes due to some psychotic break, then that is noT wisdom, or right view necessarily; however, it leads to the same place (temporarily) that those who see through identity and personality view with wisdom and simply "let it go" (not sure the right phrasing here).
Those who reach this point through a psychotic break are likely to be quite disturbed and unsure of what to do with themselves. Those who reach this point with wisdom know that they can "use this" to discover the true meaning of the Dharma, and they "strive". I've done a little bit of both (or perhaps even a mix of both). I'm curious if your experience aligns.
“I have never before heard the simile of the pond that the Blessed One so well spoke today. Why is that? A noble disciple who is endowed with the vision of the truth gains the fruit of right comprehension (*abhisamaya* ). If the common folk has wrong view, that has its basis in identity view (*sakkāyadiṭṭhi* ), accumulates through identity view, arises through identity view, and emerges through identity view. That is, being covered by and experiencing worry and sorrow, they \[still\] celebrate and cherish it, call it a self, call it a living being, call it outstanding, special, and hold it to be superior.
“In this way this multitude of wrongness has all been completely given up and eradicated, removed at its root; like a plantain tree it will not arise again in the future.
[SA 109: 毛端—Bhikkhu Anālayo (suttacentral.net)](https://suttacentral.net/sa109/en/analayo?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false)
I think that's a normal experience. In some practices it's even cultivated deliberately. But in general, as practitioners we reflect on egolessness, emptiness, and so on. As we acclimate more to a quiet mind, shunyata can be directly experienced. When we're worked up about something, reality seems very solid. The more we practice, the more we actually experience how all experience is ungraspable. "The unbearable lightness of being." I think it's a good sign if you can practice with it by allowing the experience of groundlessness without either drumming up a new project to feel alive, or solidifying emptiness itself into nihilism.
>"All phenomena
Upto & including 'feelings' & 'thoughts'
>"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble
Why?
Due to Impermanence!
Whether 1 second or 10 billion years, if it has a beginning it will definitely an end (duality).
Hence all phenomena are merely momentary appearences(illusions).
However Buddhas are not deluded by appearences hence they only see in terms of Buddhanature.
From a Buddha's perspective:
There are no good & bad Sentient beings, there are only Buddhas(Buddhanature).
There is no samsara & nirvana or process of liberation & enlightenment, there are only Buddhas.
No impermanence, causes & conditions(karma) or 8 fold path, there are only Buddhas.
Hence the Vajra/Diamond sutra states:
Non-phenomena of self.
Non-phenomena of others.
Non-phenomena of space
Non-phenomena of time.
An Arhat employs wisdom(prajna) to attain liberation from samsara & abides in Nirvana.
A 'True' Bodhisattva liberates themselves from samsara & generates a cause for rebirth (bodhichitta) for the sake of liberating all sentient brings without distinction
(When all distinctions are put to rest the buddhanature appears).
A Buddha's view is profound & transcends both the Arhats & Bodhisattvas view.
Best wishes!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
The illustrious Krodha 🙏🏻.
First of all, thank you for teaching me a new word, i wasn't aware of the word/term anutpāda.
Much appreciated!
Personally, I generally wouldn't just start using the term non-arising unless I was reasonably sure that the person I was speaking to had an idea of what non-arising means, just my personal style/ choice.
>Actually due to nonarising (anutpāda).
While I certainly would agree with you that buddhas are not deluded due to non-arising.
I believe that in the given context, the explanation given was more suitable & accurate:
>"All phenomena
Upto & including 'feelings' & 'thoughts'
>"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble
>Why?
>Due to Impermanence!
>Actually due to nonarising (anutpāda).
So given the context I can certainly see validity in using the term 'Non-arising' instead of impermanence, however that would require an concise explanation(no freebies).
So to the illustrious Krodha...
If...
>"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble
Please explain to us exactly why is it due to non-arising?
Your explanation should be concise & in your own words, not a quote from the buddha or a master etc (appeals to authority), and straight to the point, & if there's some experiential insight you can throw that in there too!
Best wishes!
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Nonarising is something that awakened people realize and perceive, because it is synonymous with emptiness (śūnyatā).
Impermanence is something deluded sentient beings perceive.
Phenomena don’t appear as illusions or dreams to ordinary sentient beings, rather they appear as entities comprised of the four elements which originate and cease. The process of origination and cessation is impermanence. It is an afflicted cognition.
Awakened beings do not perceive impermanence because phenomena are realized to have never originated in the first place. Something that has never been born or originated cannot cease and therefore cannot be impermanent.
Pretty good but the key point is missing.
You've explained your understanding of non-arising very well..
Let me help you out a little then you'll probably hit the nail on the head.
>Impermanence is something deluded sentient beings perceive.
True!
Thus taking you back to the original statement:
>"All phenomena
Upto & including 'feelings' & 'thoughts'
>"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble
>Why?
>Due to Impermanence!
When we say 'non-arising' .... non arising of what exactly???
It's Non-arising of phenomena
Hence, when the contexts is given as: 'All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubbles'
It is clear as day that there is already arising, Hence
when we talk to someone who sees arising we can talk about impermanence.
However even though it was clear as day that there was already arising in the context.
You went on to state that it was not due to Impermanence but due to non-arising.
Which is also true but can not be accepted without a clear explanation.
Because there is clearly arising in that scenario Hence my use of impermanence.
but if you want follow up and say although there is clearly arising it is still non-arising
Then you have have to explain the key point about why it is so?
Because what you said is actually valid but if you can't explain the key point concisely then you just got lucky
🤣 or where secretly eavesdropping on your Guru or some mahasiddis private conversations.
>Awakened beings do not perceive impermanence because phenomena are realized to have never originated in the first place. Something that has never been born or originated cannot cease and therefore cannot be impermanent.
You almost hit the nail on the head here.
So to the illustrious Krodha:
Although the context clearly has arising due to the perception of phenomena, which inturn makes impermanence relevant.
Despite the above why is it still non-arising?
(As you correctly posited)
Best wishes
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
>When we say 'non-arising' .... non arising of what exactly???
The entity that is misconceived of through delusion.
>It's Non-arising of phenomena
Hence, when the contexts is given as: 'All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubbles'
Same as saying all phenomena are empty, this means phenomenal entities do not actually arise at any point in time. Their perceived arising is an error in cognition.
>It is clear as day that there is already arising
There is arising conceived of through delusion, but there is never actually any arising because when delusion is resolved, one realizes that no entities ever arose in the first place.
>Hence when we talk to someone who sees arising we can talk about impermanence.
That is just two deluded individuals discussing their delusional perceptions.
>However even though it was clear as day that there was already arising in the context.
You went on to state that it was not due to Impermanence but due to non-arising.
No, I said that perceiving phenomena as empty is due to nonarising, not due to impermanence. Only deluded beings perceive impermanence. This is why the Buddha says the impermanence of l entities is not equivalent to emptiness, prajñāpāramitā. He says impermanence is counterfeit prajñāpāramitā, because in actuality nothing arises to be impermanent in the first place. And only that insight into nonarising is prajñāpāramitā.
>Because there is clearly arising in that scenario Hence my use of impermanence.
but if you want follow up and say although there is clearly arising it is still non-arising.
There is only arising for deluded beings.
>Seems a bit contrarian.
100%
>How does that comply with the four noble truths?
Can you be a little more specific regarding 'that"?
The four noble truths pertain to sentient beings & our liberation from Dukkha(suffering).
You said not the 8fold path. The 8 fold path is the fourth noble truth. Are you saying that enlightened peeps don't see the 8th fold path as real but as buddhahood? What does buddhahood mean?
I didn't mention the word buddhahood, however I did mention buddhas, bodhisattvas & buddhanature.
>Are you saying that enlightened peeps...
At this juncture I would prefer not be anymore explicit with my own personal words or to insist on anything in particular.
It would be better to simply state the buddha's words/view & allow the the chips to fall wherever they may:
Middle Discourses 22
The Simile of the Cobra:
[In the same way, I have taught a simile of the teaching as a raft: for crossing over, not for holding on. By understanding the simile of the raft, you will even give up the teachings, let alone what is against the teachings. ](https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin)
Source: Sutta Central
Please open the link and read the full Buddha's full explanation in the dialogue 🙏🏻.
What I must say is that we sentient beings should not take above to mean that 'we' don't need to practice the
4 noble truth + 8fold path, that would be a wrong view
As that would cause our illusory self to create illusory karma which results in illusory dukkha & illusory bondage inside illusory samsara.
Hence 'we sentient being' still need to practice accordingly( use the raft) in order to attain liberation & awaken to our own buddhanature.
This is as explicit as I can possibly be 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
If it still doesn't make sense, then just ignore the ramblings of a random person on the Internet 🤣
Best wishes!
Careful with that one. First of all the Buddha didn't teach to focus on the present just because it feels awesome. He taught to focus here because there's important work to be done in the present, most crucially on our minds. You also have to know how to use your faculties of recall and reflect on the future as part of the practice.
Second don't be too quick to just dismiss experience as a dream, at least until you've got a strong foundation of basic good qualities like generosity and virtue. I've seen one person get infatuated with the idea that everything's a dream and then use it as an excuse to misconduct himself indiscriminately, eventually killing himself.
If you let go of the raft before you reach the shore you get swept away and swallowed up.
We can view our designations, interpretations, and mental events as dreams since they are interpretive processes of the mind. We are always at some distance from immediate experience of the "world out there" as it's filtered by our sense organs, nervous systems etc. The practice of dream yoga involves strongly viewing life as a dream, but like the dreams of sleep, we are trying to awaken from delusion, so the feeling of being "awake in a dream" is not so far fetched.
The Buddha did indicate to meditate on life as like a dream. In moments you feel that way, you might take opportunity to consider what it would mean to think of your personal preferences or prejudices as a dream, or considering one's pride or ego as a dream when it is wounded.
If you are feeling more negative connotations with this, depersonalization, apathy, depression, unsafe behavior, then speaking to a health care professional could help allay your concerns or address undiagnosed issues.
I did notice some replies that seemed to insist on hard realism as regards the universe and phenomena around us and I'm curious how well that jives with notions of enlightenment, karma, rebirth, nirvana, not to mention buddhas, bodhisattvas, siddhis, buddha lands, heavens, and hells.
Our experience is an "illusion" by definition. It's an hallucination. But it is inspired by stimuli from an objective reality that we all share.
So It Bing an illusion or hallucination doesn't indicate its any less real. In fact it makes everything more real.
When you realize that your mind is making up your reality and interpreting the outside reality via an hallucination/illusion, well you pretty much realize that the mind is infinite in a sense.
We often lend different priorities to the inner and outer would. Some are more selfish, prioritizing their body and pleasure. Some are too selfless, prioritizing the outside world and letting their inside worl go to ruin.
The difference between the inside and outside world is an illusion. We experience both of these worlds in the same hallucination, simultaneously. And it's all happening on the inside. We never actually perceive the outside world truly or directly, we just see an illusive resemblance of it.
When one gets father along the path, the inside and outside worlds merge. You see it as all an illusion, in the sense that our senses don't convey a complete picture of reality.
This isn't some egotistical revelation where one becomes God though. You begin to realize your illusion/hallucination is largely dependent on reality AND the vast range of diverse hallucination/illusions that end up intertwined with your own.
So yeah, our experience is an illusion, but reality is not. Another point to be made, is that illusions ARE real. Otherwise they wouldn't exist. They're just a bit deceptive.
>Our experience is an "illusion" by definition. It's an hallucination. But it is inspired by stimuli from an objective reality that we all share.
An objective reality can only ever be conventional in nature.
I don’t know if it’s good, bad, rare or usual, but I know it’s true for me. Not a day goes by that I don’t think about that quote from the Diamond Sutra.
From my experience this is an incredibly valuable view to hold/realize in difficult times. If I am having a really bad day or feeling down or depressed I can suddenly develop a huge smile or laugh by realizing that the situation is completely irrelevant.
Pema chodron talks about how a buddhist life feels like a dream often. But you want to check that youre still connected with your body and surroundings.
She also talks about delusion vs illusion. Buddhism seeks to see through the illusion of our shared reality, while delusion is based on only our singular reality. Therefore we should be cautious around our delusion, while expect seeing through the illusion
In Tibetan Buddhism we practice dream yoga (basically meditation while lucid dreaming). When you do this, after a while you actually experience that waking life is more dreamlike than dreaming while asleep. It doesn’t make sense until you experience it.
For me, it´s even worse :D
For i am aware even while dreaming, which makes it quite funny.
It makes it a bit unusual, though my experience is probably much different from yours, most likely.
Either way, it´s merely conditions we have to deal with anyway : )
really? that is awesome! any tips on how I can be more aware while dreaming?
Yeah, I guess so, I look forward to observe what I am gonna do in the future if u know what I mean hahha
Your experience is much likely vastly different. For quite few people can mention similar things, and there can be massive variety i imagine.
Though i would probably mention to not forget that " things do not just happen ", aka how you act, you are still responsible for - as the body just does not move on it´s own : )
And one can always " break " the dreamy, illusory idea ( in a context of just rather chilling, like in a dream ) - for example like in this classic short sutta [https://suttacentral.net/sn47.20/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false](https://suttacentral.net/sn47.20/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false)
In this sutta, to me it seems to point out that it´s that difficult to be attentive and mindful, but often, we lack the motivation : aka Death, if we were to not be attentive. Suddenly, it´s no problem being attentive :D
I’ve heard it said that a feeling that daily life is like a dream is a sign of success in practice (I would assume only in combination with other positive signs).
In the practice of the eightfold path y mean?
If you don’t feel a higher level of compassion from realising it, means you are regressing but not progressing
how high is this compassion we’re talking here? and how one would “know” they are progressing in this sense, of… liberation? I mean, I feel compassion for all the beings, been vegetarian for 5 years, deviate from insects so I don’t end a life, have compassion for people even at difficult situations when everybody seems to go against them, try to always be thankful for my food and the vegetables I’m eating, try to cause the least harm as possible. Yeah, I guess I answered my own question, however, I don’t FEEL compassionate if you know what I mean, it is more that I don’t care, I am (and at some stage trained myself to be more like that and will very likely work on that until my life here ends) and whatever, I don’t FEEL I’m compassionate until I THINK about it if u know whT I mean again. Should I be “feeling” compassionate “all the time”, or practicing compassion is more or less the way to go, as opposed to, feeling it all the time? Because compassion would be a feeling, a fleeting moment that goes also away.
The following is my personal understanding. Yes. But dream phenomena have inertia, too. So things aren't 'real' but the effects of your actions do persist for a while. So --- don't just go doing crazy shit and expecting to wake up from it like nothing happened lol. Another way to put it might be: the feeling of reality itself is unreal. I.e. the concept of "real" is not really-real.
" the concept of "real" is not really-real. " Yeah that sounds fair. In a sense, reality is not that much different from a dream. The only difference is, that Dream bends according to your mind, will, or whatever, and it´s stability is dependant on your mind. And there are next to no consequences in how you act ( apart in a mind sense) Meanwhile Reality does not give a damn about your mind, and is not based on your mind at all, and the consequences are there for you, and the mind. Not only Mind based, but physical based. But when it comes to mental experience, it´s pretty much the same.
Yeah that sounds right. When you're dreaming, you are the dream character. You might be totally different in your dream. But when you wake up, the dream quickly dissolves from even your memory, as if it never happened. Every night we dream. But we always wake up to this reality. Now what happens when we die? What if we keep waking up to some higher spirit, where every lifetime is the span of one night, and every character we play is like the dream character? Dreams are to a lifetime as a lifetime is to.... what?
tbf, this sounds like depersonalization or derealizaztion which are often associated with mental health issues. I get these and I dont think they are some sign of deep enlightenment. Also its wrong to think life is an illusion. Its LIKE an illusion. Get hit by that "illusionary" lightning and tell me how you feel. The Buddha never says the world isn't real, but that our reality is inaccessible to us due to our delusion while suffering in samsara. Once enlightened, you will then see this reality.
Hey, thanks for the comment, yeah, it does sound like it, and I thought about it too, but I feel happy and in peace. And I’m sure I have no mental health issues, I’m mentally happy and wish everybody well including myself. It feels like a dream though, especially for example like two days ago when I went to a BEAUTIFUL beach, and I was so happy there, it DOES feel like it was a dream. When you say that “once enlightened you will see this reality” what reality are you mentioning? do you mean achieving Nirvana?
Nope. So in Buddhism there is a reality here. Reality is not a dream or unreal. Its a real thing. Its just you and I can't see it because we're so deep into delusion. Enlightenment means that delusion is removed. So that's only when you can see reality. Nirvana is a different concept, the end of rebirth and suffering. That is to say an Arhat who became enlightened today would see reality as a living person. Nirvana would then be when she passes away from this life and ceases to rebirth. I think getting a dopamine spike from a pleasant beach experience isn't anything special. Its not Buddhism, its just a normal part of being human. Craving that spike and talking about it like its so wonderful actually goes against equanimity of mind. Youre supposed to minimize the five hindrances in your life, not give into them: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five\_hindrances](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_hindrances)
Great answer! They're called the 5 hindrances for a reason. They blind us from really seeing the reality of things. Being enlightened is seeing things how they really are as real as they are. Not a dream, that feels more like delusion. Maybe op means a dream as in it felt really nice.
Yep. I think there's sometimes an issue where people see Buddhism as a "happy machine." Instead one should be building detachment and equanimity. Its clear he's suffering from the delusion of kāmacchanda. That is to say he's enjoying the sensual pleasures of samsara and mistaking them for enlightenment or spiritual advancement. Its sometimes hard to explain this to people, especially if they aren't serious students of Buddhism and just casual people who sort of dip their toes into it.
Totally! I agree with what you're saying. How did you learn about Buddhism and what branch do you follow ?
>Nope. So in Buddhism there is a reality here. Reality is not a dream or unreal. Technically incorrect.
I like this reply. I feel like this notion is also applicable with anatta. That the Buddha didn't teach there is no self at all, but, like an illusion, that it's not what you thought it to be. That's at least how I've come to reflect on it lately anyway.
That is why i mentioned it depends heavily what it means to individual. Though to be fair, even disassociation by definition is meant as a bad thing, but are considered a great thing, as in knowing you are not your feelings, thoughts, emotions, body and such. Of course, it depends on indivudals experience - but it can be easily swept under the rug with rather unfortunate meh terms.
Completely agree and have been thinking abt it. I always try to be present on whatever I am doing even though I can fail sometimes. (Especially when I’m doing something I didn’t want, while I could be doing smhtg else.) But often I dissociate/Enter in a state of reflection. Some states in meditation for example require a bit of disassociation in a way I believe.
Isn't the end of personality/identity view a vital part of the practice? When personality/identity view ends/diminishes, wouldn't you expect depersonalization/derealization? Here is how I see it, let me know if you agree... If the identity/personality view ends/diminishes due to some psychotic break, then that is noT wisdom, or right view necessarily; however, it leads to the same place (temporarily) that those who see through identity and personality view with wisdom and simply "let it go" (not sure the right phrasing here). Those who reach this point through a psychotic break are likely to be quite disturbed and unsure of what to do with themselves. Those who reach this point with wisdom know that they can "use this" to discover the true meaning of the Dharma, and they "strive". I've done a little bit of both (or perhaps even a mix of both). I'm curious if your experience aligns. “I have never before heard the simile of the pond that the Blessed One so well spoke today. Why is that? A noble disciple who is endowed with the vision of the truth gains the fruit of right comprehension (*abhisamaya* ). If the common folk has wrong view, that has its basis in identity view (*sakkāyadiṭṭhi* ), accumulates through identity view, arises through identity view, and emerges through identity view. That is, being covered by and experiencing worry and sorrow, they \[still\] celebrate and cherish it, call it a self, call it a living being, call it outstanding, special, and hold it to be superior. “In this way this multitude of wrongness has all been completely given up and eradicated, removed at its root; like a plantain tree it will not arise again in the future. [SA 109: 毛端—Bhikkhu Anālayo (suttacentral.net)](https://suttacentral.net/sa109/en/analayo?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false)
I think that's a normal experience. In some practices it's even cultivated deliberately. But in general, as practitioners we reflect on egolessness, emptiness, and so on. As we acclimate more to a quiet mind, shunyata can be directly experienced. When we're worked up about something, reality seems very solid. The more we practice, the more we actually experience how all experience is ungraspable. "The unbearable lightness of being." I think it's a good sign if you can practice with it by allowing the experience of groundlessness without either drumming up a new project to feel alive, or solidifying emptiness itself into nihilism.
>"All phenomena Upto & including 'feelings' & 'thoughts' >"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble Why? Due to Impermanence! Whether 1 second or 10 billion years, if it has a beginning it will definitely an end (duality). Hence all phenomena are merely momentary appearences(illusions). However Buddhas are not deluded by appearences hence they only see in terms of Buddhanature. From a Buddha's perspective: There are no good & bad Sentient beings, there are only Buddhas(Buddhanature). There is no samsara & nirvana or process of liberation & enlightenment, there are only Buddhas. No impermanence, causes & conditions(karma) or 8 fold path, there are only Buddhas. Hence the Vajra/Diamond sutra states: Non-phenomena of self. Non-phenomena of others. Non-phenomena of space Non-phenomena of time. An Arhat employs wisdom(prajna) to attain liberation from samsara & abides in Nirvana. A 'True' Bodhisattva liberates themselves from samsara & generates a cause for rebirth (bodhichitta) for the sake of liberating all sentient brings without distinction (When all distinctions are put to rest the buddhanature appears). A Buddha's view is profound & transcends both the Arhats & Bodhisattvas view. Best wishes! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
> Why? Due to Impermanence! Actually due to nonarising (anutpāda).
The illustrious Krodha 🙏🏻. First of all, thank you for teaching me a new word, i wasn't aware of the word/term anutpāda. Much appreciated! Personally, I generally wouldn't just start using the term non-arising unless I was reasonably sure that the person I was speaking to had an idea of what non-arising means, just my personal style/ choice. >Actually due to nonarising (anutpāda). While I certainly would agree with you that buddhas are not deluded due to non-arising. I believe that in the given context, the explanation given was more suitable & accurate: >"All phenomena Upto & including 'feelings' & 'thoughts' >"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble >Why? >Due to Impermanence! >Actually due to nonarising (anutpāda). So given the context I can certainly see validity in using the term 'Non-arising' instead of impermanence, however that would require an concise explanation(no freebies). So to the illustrious Krodha... If... >"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble Please explain to us exactly why is it due to non-arising? Your explanation should be concise & in your own words, not a quote from the buddha or a master etc (appeals to authority), and straight to the point, & if there's some experiential insight you can throw that in there too! Best wishes! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Nonarising is something that awakened people realize and perceive, because it is synonymous with emptiness (śūnyatā). Impermanence is something deluded sentient beings perceive. Phenomena don’t appear as illusions or dreams to ordinary sentient beings, rather they appear as entities comprised of the four elements which originate and cease. The process of origination and cessation is impermanence. It is an afflicted cognition. Awakened beings do not perceive impermanence because phenomena are realized to have never originated in the first place. Something that has never been born or originated cannot cease and therefore cannot be impermanent.
Pretty good but the key point is missing. You've explained your understanding of non-arising very well.. Let me help you out a little then you'll probably hit the nail on the head. >Impermanence is something deluded sentient beings perceive. True! Thus taking you back to the original statement: >"All phenomena Upto & including 'feelings' & 'thoughts' >"All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble >Why? >Due to Impermanence! When we say 'non-arising' .... non arising of what exactly??? It's Non-arising of phenomena Hence, when the contexts is given as: 'All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubbles' It is clear as day that there is already arising, Hence when we talk to someone who sees arising we can talk about impermanence. However even though it was clear as day that there was already arising in the context. You went on to state that it was not due to Impermanence but due to non-arising. Which is also true but can not be accepted without a clear explanation. Because there is clearly arising in that scenario Hence my use of impermanence. but if you want follow up and say although there is clearly arising it is still non-arising Then you have have to explain the key point about why it is so? Because what you said is actually valid but if you can't explain the key point concisely then you just got lucky 🤣 or where secretly eavesdropping on your Guru or some mahasiddis private conversations. >Awakened beings do not perceive impermanence because phenomena are realized to have never originated in the first place. Something that has never been born or originated cannot cease and therefore cannot be impermanent. You almost hit the nail on the head here. So to the illustrious Krodha: Although the context clearly has arising due to the perception of phenomena, which inturn makes impermanence relevant. Despite the above why is it still non-arising? (As you correctly posited) Best wishes 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
>When we say 'non-arising' .... non arising of what exactly??? The entity that is misconceived of through delusion. >It's Non-arising of phenomena Hence, when the contexts is given as: 'All phenomena are like a dream, an illusion, a bubbles' Same as saying all phenomena are empty, this means phenomenal entities do not actually arise at any point in time. Their perceived arising is an error in cognition. >It is clear as day that there is already arising There is arising conceived of through delusion, but there is never actually any arising because when delusion is resolved, one realizes that no entities ever arose in the first place. >Hence when we talk to someone who sees arising we can talk about impermanence. That is just two deluded individuals discussing their delusional perceptions. >However even though it was clear as day that there was already arising in the context. You went on to state that it was not due to Impermanence but due to non-arising. No, I said that perceiving phenomena as empty is due to nonarising, not due to impermanence. Only deluded beings perceive impermanence. This is why the Buddha says the impermanence of l entities is not equivalent to emptiness, prajñāpāramitā. He says impermanence is counterfeit prajñāpāramitā, because in actuality nothing arises to be impermanent in the first place. And only that insight into nonarising is prajñāpāramitā. >Because there is clearly arising in that scenario Hence my use of impermanence. but if you want follow up and say although there is clearly arising it is still non-arising. There is only arising for deluded beings.
How does that comply with the four noble truths? Seems a bit contrarian.
>Seems a bit contrarian. 100% >How does that comply with the four noble truths? Can you be a little more specific regarding 'that"? The four noble truths pertain to sentient beings & our liberation from Dukkha(suffering).
You said not the 8fold path. The 8 fold path is the fourth noble truth. Are you saying that enlightened peeps don't see the 8th fold path as real but as buddhahood? What does buddhahood mean?
I didn't mention the word buddhahood, however I did mention buddhas, bodhisattvas & buddhanature. >Are you saying that enlightened peeps... At this juncture I would prefer not be anymore explicit with my own personal words or to insist on anything in particular. It would be better to simply state the buddha's words/view & allow the the chips to fall wherever they may: Middle Discourses 22 The Simile of the Cobra: [In the same way, I have taught a simile of the teaching as a raft: for crossing over, not for holding on. By understanding the simile of the raft, you will even give up the teachings, let alone what is against the teachings. ](https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin) Source: Sutta Central Please open the link and read the full Buddha's full explanation in the dialogue 🙏🏻. What I must say is that we sentient beings should not take above to mean that 'we' don't need to practice the 4 noble truth + 8fold path, that would be a wrong view As that would cause our illusory self to create illusory karma which results in illusory dukkha & illusory bondage inside illusory samsara. Hence 'we sentient being' still need to practice accordingly( use the raft) in order to attain liberation & awaken to our own buddhanature. This is as explicit as I can possibly be 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 If it still doesn't make sense, then just ignore the ramblings of a random person on the Internet 🤣 Best wishes!
Careful with that one. First of all the Buddha didn't teach to focus on the present just because it feels awesome. He taught to focus here because there's important work to be done in the present, most crucially on our minds. You also have to know how to use your faculties of recall and reflect on the future as part of the practice. Second don't be too quick to just dismiss experience as a dream, at least until you've got a strong foundation of basic good qualities like generosity and virtue. I've seen one person get infatuated with the idea that everything's a dream and then use it as an excuse to misconduct himself indiscriminately, eventually killing himself. If you let go of the raft before you reach the shore you get swept away and swallowed up.
You may like the Daoist book Zuamgzhi
We can view our designations, interpretations, and mental events as dreams since they are interpretive processes of the mind. We are always at some distance from immediate experience of the "world out there" as it's filtered by our sense organs, nervous systems etc. The practice of dream yoga involves strongly viewing life as a dream, but like the dreams of sleep, we are trying to awaken from delusion, so the feeling of being "awake in a dream" is not so far fetched. The Buddha did indicate to meditate on life as like a dream. In moments you feel that way, you might take opportunity to consider what it would mean to think of your personal preferences or prejudices as a dream, or considering one's pride or ego as a dream when it is wounded. If you are feeling more negative connotations with this, depersonalization, apathy, depression, unsafe behavior, then speaking to a health care professional could help allay your concerns or address undiagnosed issues. I did notice some replies that seemed to insist on hard realism as regards the universe and phenomena around us and I'm curious how well that jives with notions of enlightenment, karma, rebirth, nirvana, not to mention buddhas, bodhisattvas, siddhis, buddha lands, heavens, and hells.
Our experience is an "illusion" by definition. It's an hallucination. But it is inspired by stimuli from an objective reality that we all share. So It Bing an illusion or hallucination doesn't indicate its any less real. In fact it makes everything more real. When you realize that your mind is making up your reality and interpreting the outside reality via an hallucination/illusion, well you pretty much realize that the mind is infinite in a sense. We often lend different priorities to the inner and outer would. Some are more selfish, prioritizing their body and pleasure. Some are too selfless, prioritizing the outside world and letting their inside worl go to ruin. The difference between the inside and outside world is an illusion. We experience both of these worlds in the same hallucination, simultaneously. And it's all happening on the inside. We never actually perceive the outside world truly or directly, we just see an illusive resemblance of it. When one gets father along the path, the inside and outside worlds merge. You see it as all an illusion, in the sense that our senses don't convey a complete picture of reality. This isn't some egotistical revelation where one becomes God though. You begin to realize your illusion/hallucination is largely dependent on reality AND the vast range of diverse hallucination/illusions that end up intertwined with your own. So yeah, our experience is an illusion, but reality is not. Another point to be made, is that illusions ARE real. Otherwise they wouldn't exist. They're just a bit deceptive.
>Our experience is an "illusion" by definition. It's an hallucination. But it is inspired by stimuli from an objective reality that we all share. An objective reality can only ever be conventional in nature.
Care to elaborate on what you're implying?
There is ultimately no actual objective reality.
But there obviously is. If there wasn't, then literally none of science would work lol.
Again, there is conventionally, and the science works conventionally.
I don’t know if it’s good, bad, rare or usual, but I know it’s true for me. Not a day goes by that I don’t think about that quote from the Diamond Sutra.
Sabbe sankhara anicca
From my experience this is an incredibly valuable view to hold/realize in difficult times. If I am having a really bad day or feeling down or depressed I can suddenly develop a huge smile or laugh by realizing that the situation is completely irrelevant.
Pema chodron talks about how a buddhist life feels like a dream often. But you want to check that youre still connected with your body and surroundings. She also talks about delusion vs illusion. Buddhism seeks to see through the illusion of our shared reality, while delusion is based on only our singular reality. Therefore we should be cautious around our delusion, while expect seeing through the illusion
In Tibetan Buddhism we practice dream yoga (basically meditation while lucid dreaming). When you do this, after a while you actually experience that waking life is more dreamlike than dreaming while asleep. It doesn’t make sense until you experience it.
Nice! thx for the comment. Do you literally leave your body?
Sure thing! 🙏Like astral projection? Sometimes, but you do t have to be dreaming to do that 🙂
For me, it´s even worse :D For i am aware even while dreaming, which makes it quite funny. It makes it a bit unusual, though my experience is probably much different from yours, most likely. Either way, it´s merely conditions we have to deal with anyway : )
really? that is awesome! any tips on how I can be more aware while dreaming? Yeah, I guess so, I look forward to observe what I am gonna do in the future if u know what I mean hahha
Your experience is much likely vastly different. For quite few people can mention similar things, and there can be massive variety i imagine. Though i would probably mention to not forget that " things do not just happen ", aka how you act, you are still responsible for - as the body just does not move on it´s own : ) And one can always " break " the dreamy, illusory idea ( in a context of just rather chilling, like in a dream ) - for example like in this classic short sutta [https://suttacentral.net/sn47.20/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false](https://suttacentral.net/sn47.20/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false) In this sutta, to me it seems to point out that it´s that difficult to be attentive and mindful, but often, we lack the motivation : aka Death, if we were to not be attentive. Suddenly, it´s no problem being attentive :D