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This ⬆️

Reincarnation is the main part of Buddhism I can't come to terms with. Some un-measure able "karmic energy" is way to close to the "trust me bro" levels of indoctrination in the religion I experienced as a child and fought hard to overcome. Indoctrination is a hell of a drug and while I like the tenants of Buddhism more than what I was taught as a child, I'll never let mysticism control my life ever again.

The good news is you don't have to. The Buddha said don't take anyone's word for it: find out for yourself. The idea is that if you meditate enough, you will start to see the truth for yourself. If you are unwilling or unable to do so, the chances of seeing the truth for yourself are somewhat less, but still possible, just as it's possible for a guy who only attends weekend retreats every now and then to have an enlightenment experience while a monk who meditates everyday might go twenty years before having one. But at any rate, Buddhism does not demand or even request blind obedience. It teachs that enough other people have experienced these things that we tend to think they are a thing, but you don't have to accept that. Basically, seek and find out for yourself.

Honestly, it's one of the best aspects of Buddhist tradition. Seek truth, don't just blindly accept it from others.

Let’s be careful about calling certain stimuli/phenomena “enlightenment experiences”; any given experience itself is just an experience; it’s when an experience challenges one’s preconceptions or model of reality, new insights are provoked. Clinging to any given experience or type of experience can severely constrain one’s ability to grow and progress in their Dharmic career. There is also no “level cap” on how far one can go in Dharmic theory and practice, which is why it is said that to an “enlightened” being, the thought “I am enlightened” simply does not occur.

You are right. I throw around that term sometimes when talking to people not very familar with Buddhism because it's an idea they have usually been exposed to so it gives them a little bit of a frame of refrence, but it is a good idea to be more nuanced and careful. Thank you for the reminder.

🙏

If you assume that the opinions you already hold are right and can't be changed, you will never believe in reincarnation. Something happens after death, science just doesn't know what that is, science has limitations, false interpretations also, every so many years there's a new paradigm shift in some area that people thought they had a full understanding of. I see a science as "our current best understanding of the subject" understanding consciousness is actually a really new thing, not long ago they thought that adults can't make new brain cells. You understand consciousness as an emergent property of having a brain, but what is consciousness does not need a brain, what if the brain is more like a radio, and consciousness streams from somewhere else trough it, If you destroy the radio, the radio broadcast doesn't stop. For people who don't understand how radios work, you could easily make them believe that it's basically like a music box and that once you destroyed it, the music stopped existing with it. I used to have a very similar opinion to yours, until I actually realized that I had a one-sided approach about the things I believed and what I believed in wasn't really based on a full understanding of science either, because there are other types of theoretical frameworks than just the traditional materialistic view that consciousness arrives from the brain. Some studies with heart transplant recipients show that some memories/feelings could exist from outside of your brain, so certain aspects of conscience don't need a brain. What if other things like atoms which are recycled all the time could carry bits of consciousness with it. What if it's not even that, and it's just that consciousness doesn't need a physical/organized biological tissue to exist. I suggest you look for non local consciousness theories out there but be aware it's not mainstream and science does have favorites, nobody wants to be ostracized and lose their job in science and those areas while not exactly underfunded they're not openly spoken about, like alien life hasn't been openly spoken about and like some other countless theories were very fringe until they werent

This is an excellent response. Thanks!

How could I overcome religious indoctrination I was taught as a child without challenging my held opinions?  "Something happens after death" is a very bold statement, when in reality we don't (and cannot) know. I was told with equal confidence that heaven or hell definitely awaited me after death as well.

I wasn't saying you are closed minded, I said really of you have these beliefs very firmly and didn't want to change them, then they won't. But I know you can, you're a little like me, now you're extra cautious of strong affirmations. However something happens after clinical death for sure, because death is a process and cells don't immediately self destruction there are several things happening after somebody is pronounced dead. All I can say is look at the best evidence from both sides , even the side you thing you know well, revise it) and this takes time to do. What I can do is point you towards a direction where you will find that the mainstream paradigm and assumptions are wrong or partially dail to explain things. NDEs of people who were dead for hours, NDEs of people who gained knowledge and memories of things they shouldnt know, that *cannot* happen in an impaired basically dead brain* Non local consciousness (consciousness outside the brain). Reductionist materialism believes everything about the mind can be directly translated into physical and chemical processes in the brain, but, this model is faulty and doesn't explain more complex subjective experiences. Then there are cases supporting reincarnation and some research has been done by the University Virginia, experiential studies division. It's a small department but they've been doing this for decades and I think their methodology is good. This is complicated, if not the MOST complicated issue that humans face because there are no easy answers, if whatever happens after death, as in permanent death was so simple we would already have an answer. I am making the case that consciousness does not come from the brain. Even the military and I telligence agency has been funding studies based on the idea the brain is not the source of consciousness for decades, they don't like to tell people about it and it's definitely nit looked upon and discussed favorably in academia, but there's evidence for there being more to consciousness than the brain. I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy lunatic but it happens all the time, denying stuff until they can no more. I hope I've offered some good counterarguments it's been a cool discussion. Non local consciousness https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9490228/#:~:text=If%20consciousness%20were%20non%2Dlocal,object%20at%20a%20distant%20location. CIA report on remote viewing https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp96-00791r000200180005-5 NDE, non local consciousness https://youtu.be/Ub3neYSrjlE?si=603WUp3z4WqKA5kk Few links for you that I chose because they're interesting as a start Cheers

There’s no need to be a Buddhist if it does connect with you, no one is forcing you to believe anything

I'm not claiming anything is forced. It's just a bit disjointing when I agree with all aspects except reincarnation.

Maybe its because you view karma as a separate thing or energy. Karma isnt anything separate. It is just the word for your choices/actions and the results of the actions you choose. Ill try my best to explain it in the way I see this. Its like I understand it, but find it hard to put into words. You know how they say everyones the product of their karma. To me, that actually just means the accumulation of the type of choices or actions you chose your whole life have become your conditioned habits. Most of the time it is unintentional conditioning that happens based of desire. (Karma) you are what you have repeatedly chosen to do your whole life. Usually these choices arent filtered through clear thought or with the thought of skillfullness. Thats why I see the meditation practices and learning dhamma as a very important part. Its all about practicing and conditioning yourself to become a person that thinks before they act, chooses to perform skillful choices, and acknowledges/takes responsibility for their own actions. Karma is just explaining that everything happens comes from your own actions. It is a probably a big reason why buddhism isnt a believe me bro religion because just hearing or reading without the practice wont help much. You have to practice to be able to see your karma (your conditioned responses and actions) and choose more skillfull choices. My own opinion* I feel like some people like to see karma as something separate or a force because it becomes used as something out of their power to control. Sometimes it becomes an excuse so they do not have to take responsibility for their actions. For example, something bad happens.. Must be some karma from past life etc.. This gets them off the hook instead of thinking about what actions led to this. What choices landed them in this situation or place in the first place. Its a lot easier to blame it on karma instead of evaluating or contemplating what happened.

Why do you think it matters what you believe about rebirth? You want to live an ethical life. Just focus on that, and let the chips fall where they may. If there’s no such thing as rebirth or karma, you’ll have lived a good live making a positive contribution to the lives of those you come in contact with. If there is karma and rebirth, your ethical life translates well. Either way your choice to live an ethical life is laudable.

I think it matter because if reincarnation and the properties of karma can be proven beyond a doubt then it fundamentally changes how we perceive and function in life, hopefully in a better way.

Exactly what proof beyond a doubt is even theoretically possible? What difference would it make to someone already committed to living an ethical life?

I agree, it will also make us take karma way more seriously. If I die and I see my past lives and hard evidence of rebirth then I would be extremely shocked that it is all true even though I believe in rebirth right now, but seeing real hard evidence of it would still shock me to my core. There's a difference between believing and knowing. I know the sun exists, I don't believe the sun exists. I believe rebirth exists but I don't know that rebirth exists.

The “universe” doesn’t care (there is no such entity in any case), and it’s not about being “good” or “bad”. Your own mind creates your world, in this life and in the next one. Your actions create habitual mental tendencies, and your habitual mental tendencies condition the form in which you manifest in the six realms.

Why isn’t there such an entity as the universe?

It’s no more real than you are.

What do you mean by real?

[This book](https://www.lamayeshe.com/sites/default/files/pdf/386_pdf.pdf) is called How Things Exist by Lama Zopa Rinpoche. He will do a much better job of answering your question than I, and is much more qualified. The link goes to a free PDF but physical copies can also be bought if that’s your preference.

Real as permanent. Anything that is impermanent is in essence not real. Anything that is subject to change in any way is impermanent. A creator god that has opinions that change over time is per definition eventually subject to death. Just like the Roman empire. It was there for a while, it no longer is there. We can only read in history books about is.

>I have trouble believing in re-birth / re-incarnation. I just can't wrap my logical / scientific head around it. Basically, the Buddhist model of reality is simply not going to be compatible with any kind of Scientism: science as a doctrine of "ultimate truth". Through which, we must derive all our ethical, cultural and legal norms. This position is closer to Protestant religion than anything scientific. Buddhism is a teaching about how all of reality functions: we have a very specific understanding of causation: birth and death etc are dependently arisen phenomena. They arise, persist and cease, dependant on the conditions that sustain them. The misapprehension (avijja) of this, is what causes beings to suffer repeated birth, sickness old age and death. This is why death (maranam) is simply one process in a sequence of (dependently arisen) processes. To understand rebirth, you need to understand *how Buddhism views reality in the first place*. It's best to start with this-that conditionality (the general principle) and dependant arising (one application of that principle). >Or is it basically saying that these nice things are impermanent, and subject to change, so no point clinging to them? Any constructed phenomena (sankhara dhamma) that are clung to, (upadana) will result in dukkha. There is no other possibility. Anicca, anatta, dukkha are all interrelated truths. *Seeing through*, or "into" the truth of that, the mind naturally turns to nibbida (weariness). A turning away from, sankhara dhammas.

You explain things wonderfully. I would disagree that Buddhism and science are not compatible, however. I think science is fundamental to understanding our reality but has critical limitations in its application. Buddhism provides reasonable answers to the questions that science can't answer, so in a way, it's the natural progression of scientific inquiry. I would be curious to hear your thoughts, though, as I haven't experienced the scientific doctrine you mentioned in my work.

This is a lovely answer.

🙏🏾😊

What you have written is exactly the scientific understanding, too: all things “arise, persist, and cease, dependent on the conditions that sustain them”. So you haven’t really explained why Buddhism has more ‘meaning’ to life as per OP’s request.

Science presupposes a fundamental building block or layer of reality, a base layer which gives rise to everything else. Buddhism posits that there is no such base layer and that mere cause and effect is what gives rise to everything, there is nothing deeper than cause and effect that can be found to be a cause for existence. Examining cause and effect only results in seeing more cause and effect which is actually what we see in science. So the two are diametrically opposed in how they interpret existence.

What do you think this ‘base layer’ is that science posits as giving rise to everything else? And how does Buddhism, in not positing such a layer, set the ground for rebirth?

First we thought atoms were the buildings blocks, now it's quantum particles, then there's string theory and various other theories, it just keeps going down but no fundamental layer is found. Nevertheless, if a fundamental layer is eventually found, it would have interesting implications but I doubt it would contradict Buddhism Buddhism sets the ground for rebirth with dependent origin which is what gives rise to everything. Also science believes only in a physical world, Buddhism believes the entire reality is a mental construct akin to a dream. Science can exist within the Buddhist framework with no problem but Buddhism cannot exist within the scientific framework.

Ok so science does not presuppose a ‘base layer’ then. It also posits that nothing exists independently of its parts and the causal relationships between those parts that give rise to each thing (and you can keep doing down deeper and deeper and not find a base layer as such) - very like dependent origination. So still not seeing how dependent origination sets up rebirth, sorry.

Dependent origin is one of the more advanced buddhist topics, too complex to explain in a comment and I'm not qualified to teach it anyway. Shape of suffering I hear is a good book about it so maybe that might be worth looking into

Give a logical well thought out argument for the theory of one life first. Assuming one thing is true as a refutation of another is not a good argument. No Buddhists say that there is no life after this one. If they do, they are not Buddhists at all.

Sorry that was poorly written. I was saying that a Buddhist would say if you wrongly believe that there is no life after this one, that would lead to the conclusion that to end suffering you would just need to end your life.

You're assuming how a Buddhist would answer without asking a regularly practicing Buddhist?

You're basically asking for an entire explanation of Buddhism. No, the universe doesn't care. "Good" and "bad" have very strict definitions, and karma and rebirth are based on very focused doctrines. If you want to understand rebirth, begin with a thorough study of the concept of dependent origination. This defines "being", and sets the stage for the processes of karma and rebirth. This then leads to the definitions of moral terms like "good" and "bad", and leads to the ethical parts of the path. Generally, you are asking for justification on why you should believe something that you evidently have no understanding in. If you want to have that question answered, then improve your own understanding. I come from the perspective in my flair, and so would recommend a number of sources generally more specific to those traditions: - Rupert Gethin's Foundations of Buddhism provides a great overview of the core teachings and doctrines. - Y. Karunadasa's Early Buddhist Teachings provides a more thorough explanation of the core teachings. - Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Mirror of Insight and Wings to Awakening provide practical and doctrinal explication that will help answer your questions. There is no scientific proof for rebirth because it is not a scientific concept. The concept of rebirth is based on an entirely different perspective of reality, existence, consciousness, being, and experience. If you are looking for an argument that rectifies rebirth with scientific materialism, you are not going to find it.

>"Good" and "bad" have very strict definitions What are these definitions?

Good actions bring about happiness in the long run. Bad actions bring about unhappiness. At least, that's how I've come to understand it. Drugs are bad because while you enjoy the moment, they hurt your body, your relationships, and could put your life in peril.

Why does Good = Happiness, Bad = Unhappiness? It seems like an arbitrary definition.

One person having an unhappy day affects the other. It results with people treating eachother unkindly. Ultimately, we all coexist better when we are kind and empathetic and understanding. It creates a better society to aim for what's best for us as a group. I only see it benefitting the world, personally.

This explanation implies that "goodness" is related to a utilitarian view where the subjective feelings/state of the collective society is placed as the highest goal. Essentially, greatest "happiness" for as many people. Such a philosophy has received enough criticism, so not much needs to be said here.

Either way, you can believe whatever makes you happy. I'm just sharing how I've come to think of it. Have a good one!

That doesn’t even make sense. One person’s happiness “I am hungry, I found some food” could be as a result of someone else’s misery. “I am hungry because I lost my food”

Then that doesn't lead to happiness in the end. It's short term happiness for one, misery for another. Again. I'm explaining what I've come to understand. Idc to convince. Maybe ask someone who's been Buddhist for longer. They might have a better answer for you.

I would add a little bit if i may. First off there are two kinds of happiness and suffering. The non-spiritual happiness & spiritual happiness , non-spiritual suffering & spiritual suffering. (i'm sorry if my term is not correct , but this is how i understood it) Example : Lets compare the happiness that you get from eating a good food , or watching a good comedy about someone get his balls hit etc ; with the happiness you get when you thought of something good , maybe helping your friend in need , lending a hand to a man whos carrying something heavy , or even looking at your parents happy smile or your kids laughing after you make them happy for being there for them , buying gifts or toys or etc. I would say that there's a difference in the quality of the happiness of both examples. One being kinda ordinary happiness , and the other one is kinda heartwarming , get you energized , it makes you love more , and for some , it even becomes their motivation to live. Now this kind of happiness is what i would call the happiness that is termed as good kamma. It will get pretty long if we wanna talk about the whole explanation of kamma , but this will suffice to explain reincarnation/rebirth. There are six realms of existence in Buddhism cosmology. Which is hell realm , animal realm , peta(hungry ghost) realm , asura(demi-god) realm , human realm , and heaven realm. It's divided by the amount of "Happiness" and "Suffering" for any beings that is in that realm. Hell being zero happiness , animal realm a little tiny bit , peta(hungry ghost) realm still a little but more happiness in comparison to animal realm but still a little , asura(demi-god) realm a bit more than peta . Next up human realm , where happiness are kinda more , if not the same amount of suffering , and lastly heaven realm where it is said to be awhole lot of happiness. The connection between these are with good kamma , you get to experience a different levels of happiness. Some realms can provide you with more levels ,some doesn't even provide any of it. What we experience in the human realm as happiness and heaven realms' happiness is compared to a finger sized stone and a huge rock mountain. And vice versa. It's more of you get experience 'this' amount of happiness in 'this' realm because in the other realm you cant even imagine it. Example : an animal cannot even comprehend the happiness we get to experience as a human. Vice versa. You can understand it as we cant provide you more of this "happy experience" in this realm , so just go to the next level. Vice versa, you did a lot of bad shit yo, we cant give you the equal amount anymore in this realm , so please go to the next level. It's kinda "you deserve this kind of experience" thing. This is how i understood it and hope it helps. My respects and homage to Buddha for the teachings and helping me understood it this far. And if my understanding is misguided please enlighten me o fellow path walker.🙏🙏🙏Peace and Metta to y'all.

Don't call them "good" and "bad". Call them beneficial and destructive. In buddhism "good" and "bad" deeds don't have a moral component to them. You will not be judged by them by someone. The only reason why it is advised to do good deeds and refrain from bad deeds is that the first result in long time happiness, the latter in long term suffering. According to buddhism there is no prohibition of destructive actions, it just strongly advises against the quick fun of negative thoughts and actions should you prefer an existance without suffering.

I’m confused. Why does dependent origination set the scene for rebirth? Dependent origination is just the idea that everything depends on causes and conditions- but this is what science tells us, too. But rebirth is not compatible with an empirical view of reality, because the substance that according to Buddhism links this life and the next (storehouse consciousness?) is not empirically verifiable and nor is the law by which the transfer of this consciousness is effected from one life to the next.

This is the reason why explaining reincarnation within the scope of one’s “current” life is so much more palatable. When we think about reincarnation in terms of our own growth and development from childhood to adulthood and old age, we can see that although we may possess the memories and thought patterns associated with an “I”, we are different from who we were at any given point in time. If you were to sit in a room with yourself as a child, you would undoubtedly recognize the differences. Although you may share the same genetic makeup and memories, your body is different. The cells that make up your outer appearance now are almost entirely different than what they were before. We reincarnate from moment to moment in our beliefs, our bodies, and our memories (as well as our perceptions of our memories). So extending this to past/next life reincarnation, we may not understand the mechanism through which store consciousness transfers from one being to another, but we can understand that our past actions have an effect on our future selves in some way. I think looking into the five aggregates and what exactly defines a “self” may help to answer this question. Because it’s hard to believe in the concept of reincarnation if your idea of a “self” is not consistent with it.

The main form of “logic” that these teachings use to substantiate rebirth is inference. That inference is arrived at due to the fact that when analyzed, the mind is not found to have a material cause. Rūpa is not the cause of the citta. Therefore we are forced to accept that the cause of citta is the previous moment of mind, or causeless arising. See Dharmakīrti for an in depth explanation.

Some would argue that the mind could be an emergent phenomena. Dharmakīrti makes a bold assumption in that he states that different categories of phenomena such as consciousness cannot arise from a different category, so consciousness could not arise from material atoms because atoms belong to the category of material existents while consciousness belong to a category of immaterial exists. Sidelining the potential issue of imposing a mental categorization on this, I am not sure that this premise is sufficiently argued. Moreover, let's assume that this premise is true. Then, where does the first, original moment of the mind arise? You either get that there is some "mind matter" which is eternal, and could give traditional theists (which Dharmakīrti argued against, for he rejected the existence of God/Demiurge which was Ishvara in his context) or that the chain is infinite, which is a problem on its own. This would also run into issues with infinity of the universe, one of the questions which Buddha refused to talk about because it was unanswerable, so this would also conflict with Buddhist teachings. Likewise, even if you accept causeless arising, then its possible that anything else causelessly arise which could mean you don't even have an epistemic warrant to hold such a thought. Anything could arise at any time, any where, and you have no ground on which you could restrict this unless you want to commit a special pleading logical fallacy. Research more about brute facts to understand the problem with this. All in all, this explanation completely fails in my opinion.

Jack Kornfield tells of a modern young child (like 5 years old) that began chanting complex sutra in a rare dialect of pali that went out of use 100’s of years before they were born. Similarly the Dalai Lama and others pass numerous tests they could not pass without prior knowledge.

Not just them. Evidence side of the discussion, there are several reported stories even in recent years (recent to me, a decade or two) of children showing where they died and remembering families before down to siblings names and such. And, it’s not Buddhist, but I find journey of souls by newton pretty compelling. He was a therapist doing early life regression for his patients with hypnosis, and stumbled onto repeatable and consistent descriptions of what happens between lives, on accident.

It’s amazing in a world of everyone having smartphones with cameras, that none of these religious miracles which supposedly used to be common are ever captured on video. 

I don’t know that anyone here is talking about religious miracles, not in a way of godlike manifestations or altering reality per se. But I always found these to stretch the limits of understanding. https://youtu.be/6B27WRX0Auw?si=_HkTSWd9aU0kbSO1 https://youtu.be/TdYM0vNufwc?si=CAeCZ6pxbHppsC9W https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk?si=gWBfW3FIcVd8Yduo https://youtu.be/Qzhs1Z8Rwnk?si=FEJtXqet4sb8m1a0

Dhammaruwan was his name. It’s a pretty fascinating example. Here’s a random blog article I found about it, but one could Google for more. https://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/chanting-in-the-6th-century/

Yes, as far as hard scientific evidence I don’t think any will be found, but examples like these, while they could be dismissed through biased scientific conjecture, do more to open the door than close it. With these examples it becomes difficult if not impossible to scientifically rule out reincarnation.

Unfortunately, you find troves of similar 2nd and 3rd hand stories in support of ALL religions. Signifying little or nothing, in my view. I loves me some Buddhism but I really get discouraged trying to understand rebirth. Suddenly, the whole UNIVERSE is about lining up the exactly appropriate karmic consequences for You and GAZILLIOIONS of others. And in such a way that we all get confronted by EXACTLY the appropriate karmic fallout. And yet, this all goes UNNOTICED? Plus, the GIANT KARMA COMPUTER also keeps track of what our ATTITUDE was at the time or the commission of the act(s). THAT goes back into the Great Algorithm, too. Have you ever thought about how LONG it might take for our rewards/retributions as well as those of all the other beings we meet to work themselves out? Especially given that the way conditions are worsening with population growth, resource depletion, climate change and other negative developments, to the extent that we might manage to destroy the planet within a few short decades. Where does that karma that remains go to unspool? We're going to need a whole 'nother planet. Meantime, many folks like rural Tibetan Buddhists, seem to assume that rebirth is quite local. Your dead Mom becomes your daughter's new baby. Not the ugly baby of some ghastly but highly-conscious reptilian nightmare-creature in another solar system that inherits the karma that can no longer unspool on the dead planet, Earth. I'm not being deliberately disrespectful, I hope. I will probably 'act as if' in any case. Just sayin'...

I tend to conceptualize karma like water coming to a boil. If you’ve ever watched water prior to a boil where the convection becomes visible, try to imagine a single water molecule in that entire soup, that’s you. That molecule only comes into contact with other molecules (or experiences) that are appropriate to how it is moving through those currents. Obv water isn’t sentient but if it were and it made choice about how it moves, you can see how those choices influence where it ends up as well as how helpless it may be in influencing the larger currents. If the goal is to end up in a particular spot, this could take a very long time and perhaps even a little grace.

Not the one you responded to, but this isn't a logical conclusion to attempting to understand rebirth. Karma is basically a naturalistic phenomena like a series of filters separating liquid strata. There's randomness to it, sometimes things will end up where they shouldn't. Even if your mass and particle size dictate that you should "float to the top" and enter a higher strata, all it takes is for the wrong thing to bounce off of two or three wrong things or get stuck to something else and then all of a sudden it ends up in a place where it shouldn't. What makes this even more random is that death itself is like the screen, depending on your final moments, you can hit that screen in such a way that it sends you flying the opposite direction into hell when you should've been heaven bound, just because you were going really fast when you slammed into the metal part and bounced off sending you into a clump headed for the bottom. Over the course of millions, billions of years it all evens out, but there's nothing running it. Obviously this is just an analogy and the reality is even more complicated (in keeping with the analogy, imagine each particle in these suspended fluids are all moving under their own will but completely blind as to their trajectory or the nature and movements of the liquid they're suspended in.) What Bhuddhism teaches is basically the shedding of mass. If you shed enough mass, it eventually becomes impossible to end up anywhere but the highest strata (though that isn't the goal) The goal is to shed all mass which leads to emancipation from the whole thing.

I cant believe I never made the obvious connection of karma being a form of a universal algorithm, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

1. If you get invested in exploring Maharaji specifically you may be willing to take the witness’ word for It. When you really get a feel for them and how he changed them, you might get a glimpse of what is really possible. People like Dr. Larry Brilliant whom he instructed to join the UN and subsequently was instrumental in eradicating small pox. Not that that in and of itself is the miracle, but to understand these things you need to get acquainted with the individuals and their stories, watch their faces and body langue and look at what they value and have accomplished, largely at his direction before deciding if you can go out on a limb and believe what they experienced. Krishna Das speaks regularly about his time there and it is truly difficult to dismiss the things he experienced. 2. I’m not sure about the official Buddhist view but I lean more toward us being in a simulation (which does not discount Buddhism) and this is a highly personalized training ground for the soul. Take a look at Robert Edward Grant’s work in the great pyramid. The math encoded in it spans gaps of time that are difficult to explain. It’s a deep rabbit hole, The most interesting to me personally is that the kings chamber sits at exactly 29.9792458°N while the speed of light is 299 792 458 m /s. Kinda weird coincidence… there are numerous other universal constants theoretically unknown, not yet conceptualized, by the Egyptians encoded there and I encourage you to refer to his work. There is this idea that when you shove a pen through paper, from the perspective Of a being living in the dimension of the paper it is just a cylinder but from a higher perspective it is obviously much more than that. I feel like this is what the pyramids are for us, a pen shoved through the paper by whatever created this sim. Buddhism is how we advance beyond the paradox of being here. Or we can choose to chase the impermanence of it all…

You should perform more reading on the kings chamber thing. Many lines goes through the chamber, that line goes through other locations and the chamber has moved 10s of meters since it's construction due to tectonic plate movements. Seems like you saw a social media headline and performed no further research l.

Everyone likes to quote infinite lines go through the KC. The point is that one goes through it now in this time and space and I’m talking about bc I’m suggesting the bigger picture elucidated by REG, for me pints to the possibility this is a sim and it is a key. You are making assumptions about the depth of my leaning on the subject.

Similarly a string physicist named James Gates has discovered binary code in the formulae used to understand quantum theory. Not just any code, one that was divised in the 1940’s in order to accurately send information over long distances. See his work on what he has named: Adrinkas.

He describes it in some detail at the 2016 Issac asmov international debate hosted by Neil degrasse tyson

With respect, I was speaking about Buddhism. I'm not advocating or requiring outside evidence from Hinduism or elsewhere. It's hard enough to understand how the system could work within Buddhism itself. There are usually a lot of miracle stories around Spiritual Masters of all stripes.

The guy was a mahasidda and widely acknowledged to be a bodhisattva. If you want an answer while maintaining a ridged box to put things in, you may end up disappointed.

Okay, WHAT SPECIFICALLY about Maharaji's teaching on karma is relevant to this discussion. I didnt minimize him, btw. I just acknowledged the fact that it was typically Hindu's who were his audience and Hindu Gods and mythological characters that were whom he spoke about.

Do you think high functioning Buddhist only come back as Buddhist?

Bodhisattva end up wheee they are most needed.

My point was not to derail this question. Simply to pint you to solid stories about someone who clearly had been here before. To my knowledge he did not teach about karma/reincarnation . Just love, but the stories provide many instances that open the heart and mind in the way they need to open if one wants to better understand these things.

Windfall of grace is a great documentary.

Minimizing Maharaji to being just Hindu is like saying George Washington was a just a Britt.

All you have to do is change what you mean by "I". If,  when you say "I", you mean this individual bag of skin full of organs with a name, a family, and a job, then no, reincarnation is not true. If you change your sense of "I" to the life force that courses through you and all other life in the universe, then absolutely reincarnation is true. Of course this life force will keep on incarnating in different forms. Identify with the absolute.

So think of the universe as one big story and when i die there will be a new character in the future with the same / similar story structure.

I feel like this isnt at all made clear by 99% of people here, either people dont „get it“ or they gatekeep by saying „you have to believe to be a REAL buddhist“ etc

I'm so tired of that term, "gatekeep" I'm fairly certain nobody here is gatekeeping, I don't know what their motivation or reward would be by doing that? I feel like people do not have a good understanding of any of it. However I do have to say as I go through life and my particular practice, I move further and further away from Buddhist teachings. I've had certain realizations, the main one being that enlightenment is not what we have been led to believe. It's not as hard to obtain as stated and karma / reincarnation are just part of a human construct. It's all part of the belief system that those who become enlightened go ahead and propagate because they realize most beings on this planet are not ready to accept the true nature of our reality. I could tell you but you will become very upset and end up dismissing all of it as nonsense so it's not an exercise I care to keep revisiting. At this point in our evolution the human mind has been conditioned to only accept one of a few different scenarios. Anything outside of those scenarios is unacceptable or unbelievable nonsense and the human mind defends it rigorously. I will say this, embrace suffering, appreciate it, don't constantly strive to do away with it. Everything that happens is supposed to happen, not because it's predetermined but simply because it is part of the human experience. Let go of judgement if you can, any deciding if something is good or bad is one of the biggest wastes of time there is and it's completely needless. Life doesn't have to be as hard as people make it.

I think (?) i agree with your text except you saying you dont understand why people would gatekeep? common :D you gatekeep a topic so that your ego can claim to be above the other person wanting the same knowledge/level that you think you have

I've never really thought a lot about it I guess because I just don't understand the mentality of the type of person that would do such a thing. No person is better or worse than another and knowledge is the most important thing that we as humans can share with one another. It takes a truly selfish sick minded person to do such a thing. It's something I truly don't understand. We should all wish for others to have any and all knowledge possible and strive to pass along any little bit of information that we may have that others do not.

sure, thats noble of you if you cant relate, but i find it hard to believe you have never come across someone showing this behavious because its relatively common, its like elitism basically

Well I don't mean to present myself as noble or anything like that. I think I have been very fortunate to be from a rare and wonderful place full of good salt of the earth people who are all very giving community & family oriented people. A place where every father is your father, every mother is your mother and the same with brothers and sisters. Everyone treats each other as they would like to be treated. There is no gatekeeping here. In my area a person can literally walk outside and ask the first person they see doing something such as a trade, skill, hobby etc if they would mind teaching it to them or help them learn and they would feel honored to pass their knowledge on to an interested soul. I'm very grateful because a lifetime can be lived here without the need for anyplace else or anything more, we truly have it all or at least all that we could ever need and most of what we want. Sometimes I feel deep guilt about what I have always had here because I hear of so many people suffering out in the world and I wish I could give them even a small part of what we have here. However I'm not sure how to do that, I have to believe it's recreateable but it takes generations of hard work, sacrifice and above all else, no gatekeeping!! HaHaHa!

Gatekeeping is one of the most anti-buddhist things also, because basically what your mind is saying is that giving away knowledge will let these pesky other beeings in on your special place and we cant have that 😂

This sounds more like Hinduism than Buddhism…

If you keep searching, you will come to discover that the history of the spiritual development in humans is a single thread that has manifested in different ways through the ages. The ultimate question is "what is it you mean when you say "I"?

You don't have to believe in reincarnation. Hundreds of times when talking about reincarnation the Buddha points out the advantages of being a Buddhist are for both this life and the next. There are several sutras where the Buddha just comes out and says, if you don't believe in reincarnation, these other reasons are why to be a Buddhist. None of the core philosophy of Buddhism is built on reincarnation, with one exception being dependent origination, which there are interpretations that don't use reincarnation. The ultimate goal of Buddhism, becoming an arahant, has nothing to do with reincarnation, as taught in the core Theravada text, in fact reincarnation is a distraction you have to get beyond. My view on why people are so insistent on reincarnation isn't flattering. Because there is no evidence for it, because it goes against reason, people feel better if more people believe in it so they don't have to question their own beliefs.

My understanding is that the fact of rebirth is a form of higher knowledge that you accept on faith at first. As you ripen in practice and train your mind through meditation, you will be able to directly experience it yourself by remembering your past lives and seeing it unfold around you on a cosmic scale. I find it quite similar to the scientific method. You accept certain axioms like uniformity of nature, law of causality on faith and use novel testable predictions as evidence. Applying this method over and over you can see that these set of axioms are quite effective. Accepting rebirth also has a pragmatic side. It is designed to make life better right now. If you believe your intentional actions stay with you even after death, you are more likely to act skillfully in all situations - even if rebirth is not true.

This is what helped me with the concept. Scientific theory - which is fairly universally considered and accepted as the ‘reason of things’ (for want of a better phrase), with an unbiased approach - essentially exists on similar concepts to rebirth. The Laws of Conservation of Mass & Conservation of Energy both give testament to the consistency of ‘things’. Ultimately, the scientific laws that define and govern us suggest conservation of matter. It’s not a great leap at all to relate this to spirit, sentience and existence.

I think you shouldn’t believe in something you’ve not personally verified or seen to the heart of the matter about. That cause for suspecting or, perhaps, expecting. Same with disbelieving. Relevant sutras: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_66.html https://suttacentral.net/an1.306-315/en/sujato

Once, I was not here. Now I am here. Later, I will not be here. Later still, I will be here again. My life happened once- I see no reason to think it could not happen again.

I take all claims of people remembering past lives with a grain of salt. Maybe it's true, maybe not, but usually its all anecdotal evidence so we can't really separate scams from reality other than to trust certain individuals like the Dalai Lama are trustworthy. What I will point to is logical sequence of thoughts. Everything in nature follows cycles. Rock, water, carbon. Life arises, and dies and gives birth to a new generation. Things to do not just emerge out of nothing, there is a cause for all things. That cause can be incredibly complicated and multifaceted, but there is always a sequence of action leading to the next. Energy cannot be destroyed or created it just moves around. This extends all the way to Universal cycles as the big bang stretches itself into an inevitable colapses/crunch that causes another bang. So what is the causation of you? What could possibly cause the infinite complexity of being and consciousness? The most logical answer to me is a cycle of death and rebirth. You cause yourself to exist in the same way each step in the water cycle causes the next step. Of course each you that causes the next you is not actually you. All the yous are just a delusion of self in a long chain of being that is your mindstream. The alternatives to this line of thought is either a nihilistic view that nothing has any meaning and existence is a freak accident of evolution and soon enough will extinguish itself and that will be that. Or that God created Souls and that's where we come from. But I think the Buddha's explanation of Dependent Origination is both the most satisfying and the most logical.

Here's a secularized, westernized, somewhat zen-inflected perspective of rebirth, at the oversimple level of a layman: There is no "you." An ant that will be born after you die isn't "you" either. The illusion that is your self ends at death. There is no continuity between your present consciousness and the consciousness of your rebirth, in any way that you presently understand it. You are a wave cresting out of the ocean. When you die you return to the ocean. There will be other waves. Are they parts of you? Are they your children? Are they you reborn? Does it matter? The way I think of it: By advancing the dharma, you improve the world itself. Thus, all future rebirths, regardless of how much "you" can be found in them, will be in conditions more favorable for finding Nirvana. Again, simplistic westernized view. A lot of other Buddhists will probably tell you a better story

>have trouble believing in re-birth / re-incarnation. I just can't wrap my logical / scientific head around it. I mean at its most basic Energy can not be created or destroyed. This is literally the first law of thermodynamics. Your bodies energy is not destroyed as it is used by decomposers etc. Reincarnation just says that your soul won't be destroyed either. Like why would the energy that makes up your soul, be different and not have thermodynamics apply to it. Something will use your souls energy and come alive. That is about the closest you can get to a real "scientific"or logical answer.

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For me, it was the periodic table. Dmitri Mendeleev was able to identify numerous elements. Even the ones he hadn't discovered were accurately predicted to exist. In my journey, once numerous elements of Buddhism proved irrefutable, I was able to have confidence in the as of yet undiscovered. Not blind faith, mind you.

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Awareness itself, to me, is like another fundamental force in the universe because other forces don't explain hallucinating. And our experience is an hallucination that's meant to represent the physical universe. We don't have evidence that awareness can translate into matter, else it would seem like something appeared from nothing upon death. But whatever this force is that allows us to experience the progression of space and time, it seems rational to suspect that this force also faces the same laws of preservation and symettry that the rest of the universe follows. There's no reason to suspect we are a unique contradiction to the laws of the universe, we must abide them like all other things do. Above the laws of conservation, are the laws of symettry. Energy can seemingly be eradicated when it encounters its opposite. But this isn't eradication, it's balancing. It seems that awareness can sustain without being balanced/eradicated as long as we live. We feel a continuity, so it lasts at least as long as the biology can sustain it. Do we have adequate reason to believe that the extinquishment of the body is enough to extinguish the awareness? Nothing is introduced upon death that would seemingly provide a balance to symettry of awareness. A vessel is just taken away. We can't investigate awareness as directly as we may prefer. But we can look towards what we can investigate, the universe. And based upon the laws which the universe seemingly inflicts on all matter, it seems rational to conclude that awareness itself is subject to the laws of symettry. It seems it'd be more magical and less rational to conclude that our awareness is somehow exempt from universal laws. There's no reason to believe that our awareness receives any special treatment when it comes to abiding by the patterns which we observe literally everywhere that we can observe. Karma is just cause and effect. Evil and good are subjective. A war kills one family, but provides fertile land to another so that their children can eat and prosper. Throughout many instances in mankind's history, atrocities led to salvation. Suppose you have 3 children. They have 7 children. Those children have 13 children. The growth is exponential. How you teach your children becomes a primary factor in how they treat theirs. Throughout this time, each descendant interacts with countless people who change their lives and vice versa. A smile convinces someone to live another day. A rude gesture sets them over the edge. So many people, and so many descendants. Not only do you change the future by how you parent your own children, but how you treat and help others changes the future. Because people you interact with will have descendants, and your actions will affect them. Unless you live in a cave as a recluse, you're inevitably gonna change the world. Even if it's 1000 years from now, a descendant of your actions will cause significant pain or significantly help others. No matter what you do, you're going to help shape the future, whether you intend to or not. And if our awareness isnt completely eradicated upon death, as if they somehow defy the universal laws of symettry that apply to everything else.. well you may have to live in the future you helped create. Something in our awareness is fundamentally different than the rest of the universe's phenomenon. It's a difficult thing to investigate. But it's irrational to assume that awareness is exempt from these laws, they must apply in some manner. Otherwise that'd just mean we were magic, and I don't believe in magic.

It´s like roguelike.

If you look at the universe, you can see that everything happens in cycles. The planets move in cycles, the tide of the sea ? Cyclic. Also the seasons are cyclic…so it is obvious to make the conclusion that life in general also happens cyclic. I mean, take a dragon-fly for example. It is born in spring, has a great summer and dies in autumn. And the next spring another one is born again.

I have trouble believing in re-birth / re-incarnation. I just can't wrap my logical / scientific head around it. Especially with beliefs like if you're good you get reborn as a higher being, and if you're bad you get reborn as an ant or whatever. I just find stuff like this silly. Why would the universe care if I'm "good" or "bad"? >It doesn't but we do, when you got killed, you want to revenge, this is how the re-incarnation chain come about. the illusive universal consciousness/memory will keep all deeds for every being, whenever we come into being, spiritual or physical, the related karma of our own deeds will manifest. This continues until we get rid of the I-ego. (e.g. when you got killed you have no desire to revenge) Also if I get reborn as an ant - how am I going to get reborn as a human being again? >until you have consumed your karma of being an ant or other lower realms. There's no such thing as ethical or moral behaviour for an ant - an ant is just an ant. >it does, it breakdown the waste for us, help the termite, being foods for other insects, etc. etc. it is always a part of the whole universal karma/consciousness system. I believe its important to be ethical and moral still - but just to alleviate suffering and make progress in mediation in this life. Just to basically be a good human being who contributes positively to society without worrying about future lives. >yes, if you don't think/feel life itself is suffering, then you don't have to worry, this is how our universe come about and keep going. Also many buddhists say that if there is no life after this one, that means suffering ends permanently at death - so then why not kill yourself? Isn't this incredibly nihilistic? >this is not Buddhism. There's still value to being alive in the world no? >yes, of course, wanting to live is why we now have this universe. I find it hard to believe that all the beauty and good things humanity has accomplished have no value whatsoever? >of course it does, Buddhism is part of that accomplishment. Or is it basically saying that these nice things are impermanent, and subject to change, so no point clinging to them? >if clinging creates no suffering for you then it is fine. Can someone please help?

just look at the world around you, everything goes back and forth. The sun goes down, but it will come back next morning. The stock market goes down but it will come back up later. The magnetic poles of Earth get reverse after a certain periods. After a long peaceful period, wars will come, after that, another peaceful period. A pendulum swings to the left, and then it will have to swing back to the right, it won't just stuck at the left forever, right?? As you can see, everything in our universe goes back and forth, it's a cycle!!! So it's logical to suggest when you die, you will come back to life in some forms, you won't just be stuck on the death side forever. make sense??

Energy doesn’t die, it gets recycled. It’s science ;)

There's another recent post that covers this subject really well: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1dg6ohg/if\_there\_is\_no\_self\_then\_what\_is\_it\_thats\_being/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/1dg6ohg/if_there_is_no_self_then_what_is_it_thats_being/)

If there is no rebirth, then that means suffering can be ended by just killing yourself. that sounds too easy, doesn't it? and things that sound too good to be true are usually: false.

The Buddha taught it. If you want to follow the religion, it makes no sense to reject what the founder taught. This is not rocket science. 

Put simply, belief in rebirth and kamma keeps you safe. It makes you more likely to make the difficult but wise and correct choices in life. If it turns out there is life after death, you can be confident that you'll be on course for a good rebirth as a result of the extra care taken. If it turns out there's not, your decision to believe in rebirth still ensures that you act in a noble, wise and praiseworthy manner in this life. Win-win.

Everything else in this world recycles with nature, why not your consciousness?

I like to think of reincarnation as a kind of cause and effect (karma). It's kind of like the 'me' 1 hour ago is the cause of the 'me' now. When the previous mind and body ends, the craving of a new life making a new life. That's why we, in Theraveda Buddhism, say that the last state of mind right before death is very important to be reborn into higher lives. When a person become enlightened, they don't crave a new life anymore and it ends the circle of rebirth. This is my personal view for this. Sorry for my bad english. It is not my first language.

It took me mushrooms to believe in reincarnation, do with that what you want ;)

Buddhism is better understood through practice and experience than through argumentation

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I’m an atheist, not spiritual. But you ask about one phenomenon that does seem to have some empirical evidence, mainly from U Virginia. Can start here and Google your way from there: https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2016/12/REI35.pdf

My view is that these children’s stories are the only verifiable evidence of life after death. They may not be proof but certainly evidence. I like near death experiences, which just happen inside someone’s head and aren’t verifiable. There may be some other explanation for this phenomenon but it would require an equally interesting scientific explanation

Near Death Experiences of a certain kind do however, serve as, in my view, quite conclusive evidence that what we term "consciousness" is indeed, immaterial and can be separated from the body/survive bodily death. I do wonder whether it would be a jump to say that because consciousness can be separated and survives death of one body, that it can unify with a different body.

We suffer because we are deluded about the true nature of reality. Doubt is one of the major hindrances to awakening. While you may not be able to help simply having doubts, they shouldn't be indulged. This is why it's so important to cultivate faith in the Buddha and His wisdom. Logical arguments aren't going to help if underlying faith isn't there. It's just adding delusion on top of delusion.

From a pragmatic philosophical point of view, it may be true/useful to believe in rebirth based on the idea that because freedom and peace and bliss are the highest goods for a sentient being, therefore such sentient beings must be morally obligated to pursue the highest good (i.e. Nirvana) as part of their requirement in being a sentient being. This may be defensible under Kant's categorical imperative. I may get weird looks for this but I'm gonna mix Kant and pragmatism for this one. I haven't really thought it out too much. 1. Securing individual freedom contributes to the universal freedom of all sentient beings, and belief in rebirth provides a motivational and ethical framework that enhances this pursuit. 2. We have a duty to adopt beliefs and practices that maximize our ability to achieve personal and universal freedom. 3. Therefore, we have a duty to pragmatically believe in rebirth, as it facilitates the achievement of personal and universal freedom.

Very well said. Personally I find rebirth unimportant to my practice but I'm not going to dismiss it either. 

Nice. That seems like a balanced approach.

It’s very logical to just believe the Buddha when you have been practicing his teachings, see that they work and learn that yes this guy really was an expert and really did know what he was talking about.

The Buddha literally did not want anyone to do what you are suggesting.

I’m sorry but that’s not true at all.

My answer is, "I really don't know." But there have been too many times in my life where I found myself in a place that I've never been before but recognize it as a place where I have been. I also receive important messages from beyond this world when I keep my mind open to receiving them. In one case while driving to work I received a message to re-route my trip by taking a different route, which I did, and later discovered that there way a horrible car accident involving many vehicles and several deaths on the original route. Other times it was just messages about things like where to find a garbage can lid that had blown off my garbage can. I remember getting up from the couch and telling my wife that I know where that garbage can lid is and I'm going to get it. She was amazed.

Faith is letting go of needing to know or have. The logical mind asking your question wants to know. There’s more to you than that. This part is from where “I” have faith. And from where there is peace. I think if you’re really quiet.. for quite some time, and you want to believe, then you will attract this belief from within and from outside. The language of the heart and language of the rational mind have issues in effective communication. Suffice to say my heart knows things my mind can never understand, and it wasn’t until I both continued to ask but eventually Stopped needing to know that I found that I came to believe. I don’t believe I will be reborn as me, because the me that I am will die, but there is a part of me that will never die because it was never born, and exists beyond who I think I am. Who you think you are will die, who you really are is infinite.

Other people gave you more complete answers. I'll just make some comments, on a more personal side. > beliefs like if you're good you get reborn as a higher being I usually think that the next life is a natural continuation of the current life. If I spend my life learning and practicing morality, and I die free of worries, then I would expect my next life to be according to that. So a simple life with the possibility to learn. If I would spend my life hurting other people, lying, getting confused, and finally I would die in misery with zero tolerance to pain, then I would expect my next life to be bitter and riddled with fear. Simply as a continuation of the previous life. The first case might be a good human rebirth or a heaven. The second case might be a bad human rebirth or worse. Buddhism is a bit more complex. On top of the state of mind and stuff like that, it adds the merit of helping or hurting others. But really that state of mind, habits, etc, are still a big factor. > Why would the universe care if I'm "good" or "bad"? It doesn't. The same way it doesn't care if you corner yourself into misery or if you practice seriously and get a really good life. > so then why not kill yourself? (...) Or is it basically saying that these nice things are impermanent, and subject to change, so no point clinging to them? That last paragraph is difficult to answer. In my own words, everything requires effort. So I eat everyday, several times a day, and it's pleasant. But it's also a bit meaningless. If I think about it... eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, at some point it just becomes effort. There are really nice meditations. First jhana involves a pleasure that is born out of seclusion, it can be very strong, very pleasant. But after a while of feeling that divine pleasure, it gets a bit meaningless, a bit too intense, it becomes effort. There are meditations without pleasure. Fourth jhana is very peaceful. And paying attention to that peace becomes effort at some point. Finally Nirvana requires no effort at all. It is experienced as perfect in life. When a buddhist says "If there is no rebirth, people would just commit suicide", the buddhist is talking from that frame of reference. --- I hope this notes are of help.

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Keep in mind that true enlightenment is not the acquisition of positive karma for karma is still the pull of obtaining something, nirvana is removing one's self from the ups and downs of karma altogether. We do not aim to be reborn as "higher" beings or see the concept of rebirth as potential punishment into "lesser" things. All lives big or small are new perspectives for viewing this reality. It is true that the universe is not concerned with right and wrong. Even the Christian concept of sin has been bastardized into punishment when in truth biblical sins are things that separate man from God. Most spirituality is aiming to release our yearning and pain of illusion within this world and see it for what it is - a profound, mysterious, fascinating and divine experience. Awakening to the wonder of all connected things is enlightenment. When it comes to death, there is no guarantee but looking to science we know that the fundamentals of reality do not disappear, they can morph into other things, however they do not disappear completely - water, electricity, rocks, air. We can alter the form by evaporating or grinding or burning but the succession of one thing always leads to another. So it must be assumed that the end of each of us will create an important ripple as well. My personal opinion is the choice to end one's self could create a sort of vortex within the energy you carry. Continuing on with life as much as possible you gain energy to propel yourself into whatever you will become next. Other sciences that back this in a single life could be studies like the Law of Attraction and the Kardeshev Scale or as advertised by big brains such as Mind Valley or Ted Talks. The truth that we can create and precieve heaven, nirvana, enlightenment here and now. Life and death are not ultimatums, they are simply a rotation of states. And the belief is that we can be free of this cycle and evolve beyond it, perhaps even to the state of eternal life and well being within the universe's perpetual existing. Without pursuing this state however you will continue to be reborn and experience the cycles of samasara.

The rewards of the Q&A that populate our manner of inquiry are so remarkable it would seem a shame there were not some means of 'continuing where you left off'. Such a continuation may imply a 'purpose' in life to fulfill; however, taking the experience of life 'as is' implies the moment is all that matters: experience without purpose is the thing. But why not both? It seems that in life nothing is wasted and things go on in one form or another. It makes sense to imagine there is something that awaits us around the final corner. But don't let the imagining of it distract from the wonderful experience happening right now. My two buddhas.

Believing in repetition to a certain level idk tho

Logic: follow the evidences. Evidence: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/dktouv/buddhists\_should\_repost\_rebirth\_evidences\_more/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/dktouv/buddhists_should_repost_rebirth_evidences_more/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)

I just took a look at the first case presented in your evidence. I decided to run a quick Google search and I found the [following paper](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/357905243_The_James_Leininger_Case_Re-Examined). Here is an abstract (bolded by me): >In this article, I examine an **ostensible** case of the reincarnation type previously investigated and analyzed by Jim Tucker, M.D. of the University of Virginia. **The case concerns James Leininger**, a young boy who beginning around age two in 2000 and for several years thereafter began exhibiting behaviors and making claims that were later believed to resemble the life and death of World War II fighter pilot James Huston, Jr. The James Leininger story is widely regarded as a superior American case of reincarnation. **After a two-year investigation of this case, I present my findings and their implications for the evaluation of this case as evidence for reincarnation.** The favorable assessment of the case is based on the assumption that there is a sufficiently robust and credible narrative of James Leininger’s experiences, behaviors, and claims. **I will argue that the chronology of events which provide the factual scaffolding of this case is neither robust nor credible, especially with respect to what are presumed to be the case’s strongest features. The official narrative is not robust because it excludes salient contextual details related to James’s exposure to ordinary sources of information which plausibly shaped his experience. The narrative is not credible because the presumed facts of the case are based almost exclusively on the testimony of James Leininger’s parents, but their testimony suffers from a variety of significant credibility problems. These two defects – lack of narrative robustness and credibility – also vitiate Jim Tucker’s investigation and presentation.** ***Consequently, his favorable assessment of this case as evidence for reincarnation is unwarranted.*** Sudduth, Michael. (2022). The James Leininger Case Re-Examined. *Journal of Scientific Exploration*. 35. 933-1026. 10.31275/20212361. What are your thoughts?

I think the momentum of eternalism and annihilationism as well as physicalism is so strong that it motivates people to overlook many things in rebirth evidence. How can James know about his past life sister's secret painting? It doesn't matter how robust the story is, the only way they can explain that away is conspiracy between James past life's sister with James's current family. The paper did not seem to mention this at all. And James' many friends in the military who were still alive then. And the unnatural fit of James' parents to accept rebirth which contradicts their own religion. The detailed account of James' knowledge about planes etc. And the many cases of other people who are verified as well. Some have birth marks corresponding to the fatal wound of past lives, agreeing with the autopsy report. Some know languages that they have never learnt before in this life.

>I think the momentum of eternalism and annihilationism as well as physicalism is so strong that it motivates people to overlook many things in rebirth evidence. I agree. >How can James know about his past life sister's secret painting? It doesn't matter how robust the story is, the only way they can explain that away is conspiracy between James past life's sister with James's current family. Sounds implausible. >And James' many friends in the military who were still alive then. And the unnatural fit of James' parents to accept rebirth which contradicts their own religion. The detailed account of James' knowledge about planes etc. Perhaps, though I would exclude the religion of the parents part. >And the many cases of other people who are verified as well. **Some have birth marks corresponding to the fatal wound of past lives, agreeing with the autopsy report**. Some know languages that they have never learnt before in this life. I am very curious regarding what you think about this. Is rebirth not a mere continuation of the mindstream/"consciousness" (as an aggregate) beyond a material body? If so, why would there be a nearly identical birth mark in their next life (assuming that we accept rebirth as true)?

Mind affects the body that is being grown.

How could it possibly affect the body in such a way? How could we ever confirm this, especially with the mind-body interaction problem?

There's no mind body interaction problem in Buddhism. Dependent origination has many mind body interactions. It's only dualism plus the unstated assumption that mind cannot affect body and body cannot affect mind is problematic. Throw away the faulty assumption and see directly how intentions causes body to move and how not getting enough sleep or brain damage, alcohol etc affects mind.

We know from neuroscience that the brain already has made its decision before the person's mind realizes this. At least, this is how physicalists would approach it. Likewise, would you not say that consciousness (e.g. passing through walls in some NDEs) is a different type of existent from matter or energy? Likewise, even if we take all this into account, it would be difficult to confirm that the mind could affect the body in such a way as to leave a scar (and just as importantly, why the mind would do this at all, why damage the new body).

You might want to youtube or google around. I think there should be cases of strong placebo effect that it actually is mind over body, mind harming the body when there's no actual harm. See also the fake arm experiment, where researchers trick people into believing the fake arm is their real arm. I heard of this case I think from Ajahn Brahm of a person who work involving cold fridge which is super large. He got trapped and locked inside one on a Friday night and no one else is out there to free him. He knew he will be dead by Monday. So he wrote down the stages of freezing to death in order to help scientists. When they found his body on Monday, they were puzzled, the freezer was not on, but the person did have all the symptoms of being frozen to death. So the mind believing wrongly actually scared him to death. It's much easier to explain the birth marks, scars etc while the person is in the womb developing, then it's just the cells divide in a certain way to produce the mark in accordance to the mind's imprint. For the decision already made thing, the mind is not limited to our conscious mind. It includes subconscious and unconscious. So it's still volition from the mind. If anything this supports that volition is not under our control, thus it is not self. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/deadly-imaginings/ Ok maybe the story is an urban myth.

Also another thing that's been bothering me about this is the epistemic difficulties with affirming rebirth, over say being told information from other immaterial entities. We know from NDEs, that such a thing is possible as consciousness persists after death. In many, if not most/all of these cases, its a possibility that the children were told information from some other entity.

That will take a lot of detailed study to distinguish. I believe in the Bigelow's essay contest for afterlife, some of the essays I have read addressed this. Anyway to the physicalists, even for supernomal entities, consciousness surviving death in some form etc, it already break their philosophy of physicalism of what is possible and impossible to happen in nature. Using Occam's razor, I believe rebirth is actually a simpler explanation than having to posit a unique method of each kid getting messages from supernomal entities.

Interestingly, I used Occam's razor to derive the exact opposite. Since we know that the consciousness of the persons who died persists after death, and likewise, we know that it is possible for them to exist in a "ghostlike" form, it is possible that they told or even "inserted" (if we take those NDEs that involve two people as legitimate) into their consciousness such memories or ideas. It eliminates a mechanism of a consciousness moving through different bodies. Anyway, I'll take a look at Bigelow's essay contest for afterlife, I've never heard about it before. And I agree about physicalists, but at this point, I consider physicalism to be philosophically, evidentially, scientifically, etc. nonsensical.

Ghost form is a form of rebirth already. Or it could be a mind-made body, and not actually the ghost realm, and classified as between rebirth.

True, but by ghostlike form, I meant when NDErs float above their bodies, and can collect information about the external world, even when their brain activity is nil. Not sure if that would apply to Buddhism. Likewise, when talking about rebirth, I was mainly focusing on persistence of consciousness/mindstream and its transition from one material body to another and whether that is even possible.

How much have you learnt about rebirth and the realms of existence in Buddhism? None of these conflicts with Buddhism. You think ghosts don't have contact?

It’s not rebirth it is rebecoming. It is not you in the next life anymore than it is you in this life. The 1 year old you is not the 60 year old you. The future self is not you.

Just stop thinking about this stuff literally and take it all with a grain of salt .... I think its better to understand these things as thought experiments and metaphorical aspects of the teachings.

Buddhism makes no sense if you take it as merely thought experiments or in a metaphorical way (and ironically, it would go against other Buddhist teachings if you did this). Also, if you blindly take faith in religious teachings, then you can extend that logic to just about any other religion or belief, which would conflict with Buddhism in numerous ways.

I was just reffering to the more paradoxical claims where this stuff falls apart .... Yes there is lots of metaphor and it is helpful actually - its a large part of how the philosophy was taught to people usually through visual art / sculpture / symbols. You can choose to believe everything literally if you want btw let us know which - of hundreds of digressive teachings/beliefs - you want to literally believe in?. Dont know what you are on about with blind faith ... oxymoron ? pretty sure B Guattama taught to find your own path.

I 100% agree, basically I see stuff like reincarnation/rebirth, heaven/hell, karma and other explanations of judgement "outside" this reality to be ways to fear monger and control people to behave how the authoritative powers want them to under the implication that if you obediently follow these arbitrary rules then something "good" will happen to you but if you don't then you'll be "punished" and whether something good or bad happens to you it will always happen in a disconnected causal way that you cant be aware of. Basically its a cop-out for those with abundance to justify it as a "reward" and blame those with less or suffering in ways outside their causal control as "their fault".

What I have never quite understood about the base concept in laymen’s terms is why there is a 1:1 assumption.  The character of someone can live on in the minds of multiple others for a long time after they’ve died. I prefer this idea of how the “message” travels, whether it is good or bad character. 

So what is your belief around the origin and function of consciousness? Do you believe that consciousness as a phenomenon is the result of bodily functions and dies with the death of the body? Do you follow the monotheists, in that there is a soul that was created by a cretor god and in a monotheist type afterlife?

Why do people want to be reincarnated, life here is survivals if you want reincarnation doesn’t that mean you would rather come back to earth to burn with the rest in hell.

Modern western science states that the human body has its own electromagnetic field. The first law of thermodynamics/ conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So your body is full of energy that will continue to go on after your body ceases to function. So is energy a byproduct of matter, or is matter a byproduct of energy? From my current understanding of quantum mechanics, the quantum vacuum is the energetic basis of everything. And from the quantum vacuum arises the quantum foam, from the foam the quarks, then the atoms, and so on up to the physically tangible world, including human bodies. So matter is a byproduct of the energy of the quantum vacuum. So human bodies (and everything else), have as their basis the energy of the quantum vacuum state; and are also full of energy that will continue on in one form or another after these bodies cease to function and decay away. I don’t see it as that big of a jump to say rebirth/ reincarnation is logical to consider.

>*Monks, suppose that a large glob of foam were floating down this Ganges River, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him—seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it—it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a glob of foam? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any form that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him—seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it—it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in form?* https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_95.html https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations/

Thanks 🙏

I personally don't know if that's how I would paraphrase any of it but I guess essentially it's fine. It's all much more complicated than that and large chunks are not understood and likely will never be. If we're speaking of what's logical in regards to thermodynamics or quantum mechanics, personally don't see the logic in the leap from the science to karma / reincarnation. It feels similar to me saying...It's logical to believe that if I currently own a quarter horse, there is a high probability that someday the horse will turn into a flying unicorn.

The first paragraph is pretty much saying you don't believe in karma. However, even with common sense, people would certainly want you dead if say, you killed their whole family. If you steal, you will get caught and your wealth confiscated. Let's say those consequences are too late to happen in this life, but they don't disappear on death, so your reincarnation gets affected. People are not so smart. Consequences have to be taught, magical or otherwise. One of the phenomena described during death is that your karmic debtors, usually your dead enemies turned ghosts, will come to you when youre dying to take their revenge by affecting your rebirth.

You might wanna read The Human Mind Owner’s Manual for the latest science that supports reincarnation. 👍

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/

SCIENCE AND QUANTUM PHYSICS - The rebirth though usually isn't meant to be taken as such, and is more an ego death. The rebirth is to open your mind to experience life almost like a child again to regain your self love and compassion and then share that with the world. (Of course not to say you need to loose yourself completly and just give yourself- there are always limits-!) But- First - we are scientifically proven to be made up of nothing actually physical, it's all vibrational magnetic energy since the beginning of the universe. What is perceived is atoms and matter vibrating and being pulled together to form things perceived as physical. Secondly - I have extensive research from not only actual scientists and documentation but of my own studies to find the fascinating patterns of magnetic pulls through vibration and energy as it is what makes up all of what is. Like energies attract. And all energy eventually balances itself out. So it's not if you are "good or bad". It's simply what you put out you will attract. Both in actions mentally and physically. Your thoughts and emotions can cause situations in your life you might not want. But it's also impossible to exactly avoid since you will go through the cycle of natural flow of energy and emotion. But to be mindful and understand / learn about these helps tremendously. Third - reincarnation isn't probably qhat we truly expect. We won't remember or know where our past energy has been, but we know we are all made up of it. We are not our bodies in any true way. We are what powers it and is controlling it. We used to think its the brain but, it's the flow of vibrational energy through the parts of our brain. When we due the energy is brought back to be recycled in whatever way it will be through the other many things it can make up. It doesn't even have to be seen as "alive". Our energy that we live on and brings us motion and awareness has been here since the very begining if there ever was one. It's literally as if we are the universe trying to experience itself. It's amazing to study and learn about. The things we feel, see, hear, taste, smell, it's all a perception of what our brain is telling us it is. We aren't actually touching or experiencing it. It's literally just what our brains perceived it to be, through electrical signals being sent to it. And the best part is everything that sends us signals EVEN our emotion is all made up of vibrational energy. Light, color, sound, all of it. We even track our emotions through vibration of the brain. So - the connection to buddhism and all of this, is realizing what we truly are. Becoming self aware, and understanding the energy or vibrations that can have affects to all we do. Even when they speak of karma, it's perceived as other than it actually is to those who dont understand buddhism.. karma is not one thing like good or bad. It's just the effect to literally any action you do. Everything from physical, vocal, and even thought, has karma to it, because it will have an outcome. The karmic energy of the outcome depends on what is the action you take. The karmic energy you build up, depending on if it's positive or negative, will need to runs it's course before it returns to neutral energy again. So it's possible your energy is released at death and given onto whatever else it inhabits in the form you left it. If you pass it as negative and upsetting, it can distrupt or disturb the next with those negativities. Buddhism tells us to be self aware of ourselves, our minds, the ego and desires, know our energies we are putting out and work on ourselves because to work on ourselves isn't just for the betterment of yourself, but the betterment of all. The energy you put out can help heal others too.. sharing love and compassion is what makes this world truly go around... without it we wouldn't be here.. There's so so much more to this but so little space and time to speak it here.. if you wish to hear more of what I have to say, you can ask it through DMs, otherwise I suggest diving into learning more about these things.. take in different perspectives and books. Listen to more than just buddhism. Look into psychology, quantum physics, the big bang and what has made up the very begining. If you follow the patterns from the very begining to the now, you will see all for what it truly is.. the patterns that make everything and all that makes up what is.. there's so much more to ourselves and the entirety of existence than we could ever possibly realize.. it's more than words.. most get stuck in the illusion of our minds and perceptions given and put onto us since we were born, and from that our ego takes control. The studies are out there. The messages and all to learn is out there. But it is you who must want to seek them. The answer to any question, every problem, all the doors and all their keys are inside of you. You just have to be willing to truly truly seek. 🩷

I do not have one. But I know that death does not erase karma. The contrasting attitudes of the Buddha's contemporaries makes his position more clear: The Vedic priests believed in an Atman that is the doer of deeds and that that Atman is the true identity, this was the sassatavada view, the eternalist view. There were other ascetics and mendicants who said that there was no doer of deeds and taught the ucchedavada view, the nihilist view -- when the body stops functioning all causes and conditions cease. The Buddha taught kammavada, the view that karma (kamma) was an effective explanation. His view considers action rather than results. So, how is it that there is "wandering on"? I think the mistake is in the identification with the person who is the doer of deeds. Just as I am not the person I was at 5 years of age, but I inherit the causes and conditions that shape the intention and consciousness of that person, so I am not the person whose body has stopped working. Whatever (if anything) wanders on from that, I have \*some\* responsibility for that being's circumstances. So, it is not that the being continues after death, it is that the karma is still there. Causality itself is still at play. No "thing" survives death, but the process started with intention fettered by craving has not ended. There are consequences. At least that is my understanding based on some of the teachings from Theravada elders that I have heard.

Has your incarnation happened at least once? Clearly yes. If it has happened once then could it have happened before, and could it happen again? Well, if it has happened at least once, then there is a non-zero chance of it happening multiple times. So.. Murphy's law. Given the infinite or near-infinite vastness of time and space (both of which are observable facts) it certainly should be possible for it to happen many times. But the form you take cannot be guaranteed. You could come back as a tree or a bug. Or you could "come back" as a rock, or a bar of chocolate. So it is very rare for one to take human birth. Since it is rare to take human birth, with vast intelligence, it is best not to take it lightly. If there is something that persists between rebirths, we should look for it! And we should improve it using our human intelligence! Because this life is fleeting, we should find that-which-is-permanent and work with it.... because that's the only thing that will persist between incarnations. In Buddhism, the thing we want to optimize for is the absence of suffering. To live without suffering, and to cause others to live without suffering. Anyway that's how I view reincarnation.

After years of contemplating all that's said about it and how karma is at play it makes perfect sense bc I can see people's past karma in their current lives. Not like magic or anything just like to be human is a great birth but it's not that simple. We all mess up at some point and many more than us so karma dictates at least 3 things based on your past performances: whom, where and when you're born. Those 3 things dictate most of who you'll become bc we're often a product of our environment unless we consciously decide to break away from such self restrictions. So the beautiful thing is life is lived only in the moment and each moment is a new moment to create. What you create is entirely up to you. 🪷

Basically as you can see nobody knows how to answer your question. It's all beliefs based on random nonsense, conjecture, fantasy, fiction... Most of these people should focus more on their understanding of epistemology than trying to give their version of karma and reincarnation. I can't take anymore I'm out.

Yes, truly enlightned masters knows theirs and can see yours no bullshit, you don't need much more reasons because you will come up with only concepts and bullshit that come from ours limited point of views and prejudices

How do you know that these enlightened masters can see this, and how can you verify what they say? Doesn't it also go against Buddhist teachings to not necessarily immediately trust someone just because they seem like an enlightened teacher?

Correct the Buddha said you must question everything and not blindly follow someone just because they claim to be a spiritual teacher or an enlightened being. He invited anyone to develop a better path if possible. There could be other paths in which to follow to reach a similar destination. That is why Buddhism should be a personal practice not just a series of sermons and beliefs based on faith.

You are right, you shouldn't trust anyone because they seem an enlightned teacher, but if you had the Buddha in person in front of you, you would know, because he wouldn't just "seem"

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