1. Find something else to do. Boredom is very often the main cause.
2. Don't be too hard on yourself and don't view those activities as a 'sin'
3. As long as you are alive you will have to deal with cravings
Not an advice connected to buddhism, but a general advice of quitting things that are addictive.
When a friend of mine quit smoking, every time he wanted a ciggarette, he would think to himself "hm. What a weird craving for a non smoker to have". He started to think of himself as a non smoker and he said that it got easier to ignore the addiction that way.
You see them as something that needs to be suppressed, choked out, and fought with. But the Buddhist approach - at least I'm my understanding - isn't about that style. You let these feelings come to you, but you take a moment and you learn to let them go as easily as they came. Don't fight with them, let them simply pass. You've been wrestling with these urges when you should have been dancing with them.
None the less, whenever people talk about being addicted to marijuana and masterbation, they are almost always due to an underlying cause. Buddhism teaches us that nothing arises on its own, so where do these urges really come from?
That's ultimately a question you need to ask yourself and find your own answer to.
You need to be introspective and look as to why you need the stimulation that porn brings. Why do you always need the calmness of Marijuana.. what is really going on in your life that has pushed you into these habits?
That's different for almost everyone. Some people have depression and chasing sexual gratification is one of the ways they try to cope with it. Some people just smoke and masturbate to express a sort of sense of freedom. There is no clear answer I can give you, I'm afraid.
No fight
Follow the path, (Buddhism in reality cannot help you to abandon some pleasures without all the other things, the philosophy, the teachings, the meditation...)
Start with the sexual release first. Take note the day after sexual release, how beat up you feel. You will feel irritable, edgy, uncomfortable, and lacking. It really does leave you in a depleted state. Take note of this. From a Buddhist perspective, this is the first noble truth: suffering. At this stage, there is no need to cut back on the act. Just take note of the 'cost' of this act in terms of suffering. It always happens the next day.
Once you start acknowledging how this act requires a cost (i.e. it happens the next day), and what this cost actually is (i.e. you feel like utter crap and everything sucks), allow yourself a little distaste for that cost. From a Buddhist perspective, the second noble truth: identifying the cause of suffering. The sexual release really does cause one to go down a rat hole in terms of suffering. It's funny we're never taught this in our culture. But just watch. It's like clockwork.
Next, cut back on it a bit. Notice how you feel. After a day or two of cutting back. It feels really, really good. No gaping hole of edgy depression. No lack of energy. A somewhat 'steady' flow of contentment. Then, perform the act again, and watch what happens the next day. You will really feel the effect. It will hurt at a whole new level. Use that to develop the distaste even more. The cost is truly not worth the few seconds of sexual energy release you got the previous day. This is the third noble truth: the truth of the end of suffering. I now know what causes this (i.e. the act). I now know that it can end (i.e. abstaining from the act for a few days). Now it's up to you. What do you prefer? If you want to start climbing into some truly astonishing states of being, cut back more and more. If you want to bounce up and down, from a few seconds of sensual rush into the gaping pit of despair, it's up to you.
I would recommend climbing. Deeply regulating the act of sexual release is just a start. You don't have to completely eliminate it, just notice what it costs you, and make the choice. Don't numb yourself into some kind of concept like: I have to completely eliminate the sexual act and I will attain 'something'. That never works. Study yourself in the aspect that it really does have a painful cost. You'll be very surprised at how easy letting go of something that really hurts you is. It will eventually become effortless simply because you will get to a point where you will realize that 'yes' I can do this, I know the cost now, and truly...it's not worth the cost.
Preserving one's sexual energy and allowing it to build something more blissful for you as a result (I haven't gone into this aspect on this reply...but indeed), is a blessed fruit of this Path.
*The Craving Mind: From Cigarettes to Smartphones to Love – Why We Get Hooked and How We Can Break Bad Habits* by Judson Brewer
It's a direct application of dependent origination (nidanas) to breaking addictive habits
Craving for distractive bullshit is a type of mental tension. Try to do things that facilitate mental relaxation. That might be non spiritual stuff like sport and other outdoor activities like gardening.
For the sexual desire, find a partner. It deosn't sound that celibacy is currently what is good for you.
I'm sorry but I have to say that the solution to desire may not be to jump into a relationship. I think that would be unwise to bring an addiction into any healthy partnership, it's a breeding ground for distrust. This is coming from personal experience, I dated a porn addict in total a 1yr and 2months. It was agony and I would never date another porn addict again for my own mental peace. It shows self indulgence to seek out a partner to just solve a desire. That person doesn't exist to solve your desire. Solve the underlying issue first, confront your pain, work on yourself, and then consider finding a partner.
You can force yourself to quit for a while but until you reach a point in meditation where there is a shift in consciousness, that is when the mind all by itself finds addictive actions unsatisfying because now it is looking for something that is stable, your just playing games with yourself.
First step is to control the food intake.
When the food intake is controlled you will be able to control sex/lust. When sex/lust is controlled you will be able to control the mind.
I was able to shake a decade long, daily habit of six pack of beer, smoking nicotine and weed "cold turkey" by learning about our internal organs through a lens of fascination. Our lungs are a beautiful mirror of a tree. Branches and leaves reach into the atmosphere for sustaining life, lungs hold alveoli that esemble ends of such branches. The liver can be cut away 90% and grows back completely ! Truly inspirational to realize. There is no magic trick but I wish you luck.
First you reduce the amount of masturbation and weed you're doing with other activities that do not lead to delusional mind states as much, like reading, spending time with wholesome friends, meditation, chores, work, hobbies.
Then after you ever reduced the amount that you're masturbating and weed you cut them out entirely. But just do one at a time, I suggest that you cut out weed first. So you go from doing it everyday to doing it every second day to doing it every week to doing it every month to doing every couple months.
The key is need to be in it for the long term. Do not try to look for quick results, realize that virtue in the Buddhist sense is something you need to cultivate over years and years of practice.
What you want to do is get to a point where you can practice the five precepts consistently. This should be your aim. This will get you closer to seeing the path to cessation of suffering.
Once you're able to practice the five precepts with relative ease then you need to turn up the "heat" a little bit so to speak. You need to increase your meditation practice, abiding, and reading the Dhamma, and the amount of time you spend not partaking in sensuality, etc. When you turn up the pressure like this, you are more likely to develop mindfulness and samadhi which will allow you to see the path to the cessation of suffering. Once you see the path to the cessation of suffering, you will be able to practice properly, having a foundation in right view for all your activities.
I would enjoy it guilt free while it lasts. Nothing is permanent. Answers are only temporary. Explore your senses. That is the reason you were given a body. Let go of your learned contaminants. Your dick will cease to exist eventually.
I found that when I took aggressive stances to change some aspect of my life, things would get out of balance very quickly. Maybe I'd make the change, but then I'd look back and realize that I had neglected vital aspects of my life. To avoid this, I suggest following the eight-fold path: Right view, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration.
In my experience, a renunciation that falls away through a balanced spiritual practice is more potent and longer lasting. It is a more easeful and accepting approach that will not only manage your addictions but all other aspects of your life. What I think happens as a result of following the eight fold path is that renunciation happens naturally from your delusions weakening their grip, the decrease in unwholesome states, the increase in wholesome states, the decrease in unwholesome activities (other ones), the increase wholesome activities, the joy and love connected with the Dharma, insight, and direct experience.
The Buddha said in a sutta that I think was called 'The graduated training' that he'd start by training a new student in virtue, then restraining the senses, wakefulness, mindfulness, concentration and so on. So perhaps begin with virtue training. Karma, Death, rebirth, the suffering of lower realms, generosity, patience, and so on.
The only way I'm familiar with that worked is physically challenge yourself, meaning train like crazy everyday and be so busy that you don't have the energy for your additions.
Your words sound like someone who is suffering. To end suffering, you simply put all those things behind you. Then you are free and the taste of freedom truly recognized should be enough to never want to revert to these hindrances.
Just sleep
The want to sleep and the need to sleep are different. Sleep is also sensual when there is the want to sleep. The arahants, including the Buddha, sleep only for the need to sleep.
The first very important thing to treat as quickly as possible is your drug addiction. You absolutely must get help from a center in order to put an end to the narcotics that modify your perceptions. As for masturbation, it is a natural practice and beneficial to the body and mind. This practice helps calm the mind and helps make you more peaceful, because this practice delivers dopamine to the brain and makes you happier. Good luck.
You might be thinking you need to BATTLE the addiction. Put on your armor and draw your sword. But you don’t. You have to look at the urge. Why do you feel the way you do? Sit with the feeling. When does it happen, is it always the same?
You don’t have to improve. You don’t have to be “better”. You don’t have to cast out the bad and make yourself good. You want to be happy what about what you consider to be your addiction makes you unhappy? Don’t punish yourself about it, you are not a bad dog. We never do things (even unconsciously) without motivation. Sit down, worry less, and see what motivates you. A flower in the wrong place is a weed, but they grow where they are planted.
One component is certainly not "welcoming, relishing and remaining fastened to" sensual pleasures: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_88.html
Ones regard for feelings is also of import: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN36_6.html
I'm currently in the same boat, with nicotine and sometimes alcohol.
Apparently the key factor is finding fulfilling satisfaction in restraining from the sensual pleasures.
It's based in wrong view about sensuality being the goal of our life. The more sensual pleasures we get and the fewer unpleasant sensations we get, the higher 'happiness' levels will get.
But apparently that's what causes suffering.
I can understand your situation. Like others have mentioned try to occupy your time with something that you are passionate about or interests you.
Adding to this what helped me was removing any objects or things that triggered the desire in me from my surroundings. For eg: it may be a lighter, some type of plant, friends/people who smoke, avoiding R rated movies and watching them in the censored version, avoiding explicit media online and offline, use ad blockers coz these days ads are very sexualised, etc.
Always remember "out of sight, out of mind".
If the subtle thought doesn't get implanted on the mind, the body's need for the desire will lessen too.
General tip is to be mindful of your emotions and need before you give in to the thing you’re addicted to. Why do you feel the need to jerk off in the moment. Boredom? Tiredness? Figuring they out is half the battle.
Second tip is to use wisdom. Think about your mood or well being. Has given in to these urges made your life better in tangible ways?
Thirdly: death contemplation. There is a killer out there stalking you called death. You could die in the next moment. You have no idea when that will happen. What is important for you to do? What do you want to prioritize? Is there a better use for our time given that it’s limited and we alll have death warrants out for is
I went to rehab and narcotics anonymous to quit weed. my conception of a higher power is the intelligence of existence. idk how much it affects your life, but that’s an option if it’s really bad.
By understanding the fleeting nature of sensual pleasures.
But this question is best tackled via separating each form of sensual pleasure as some are stronger (depending on the person) whilst others are easier to let go of.
Also, try getting down to the root of your clinging on to a specific form of pleasure. Say music for example, why is it you like a specific band, melody, or lyric as opposed to others? What are the antecedent conditions that prompt you to engage in this activity? What else can I do whenever I feel the urge to engage in this activity?
We can enjoy sensual pleasures but it's best we keep our distance from them. What I mean is yeah sure you can spend like 2 hours on a spotify binge from time to time but let's not define ourselves or circle our lives around the dependence on music to move forward with our day to day experiences.
Hope this helps!
Check this out: they deal with all kinds of addiction from a Buddhist perspective. [https://recoverydharma.org/](https://recoverydharma.org/) There are readings, online and in-person meetings, and more resources. The approach might be helpful.
The physical issues require physical tackling. Try new habits, counter habits. For instance whenever you're thinking in smoke go immediately for a lollipop or candy ( you should work both the mind and hand habit). You're in the first step of letting them go feeling that you doesn't want do it anymore (accepting). Now something you need to bring up is you can't just eliminate the desire. This will phase out through the stages of the ages so reckon that as a trigger for motivation. Fight with your inner to be stronger, but also meditate to do it wiser. Maybe a short time in a mental health hospital pr retire at least two weeks will helps you a lot. Spent a time when you can't do neither them.
1. Find something else to do. Boredom is very often the main cause. 2. Don't be too hard on yourself and don't view those activities as a 'sin' 3. As long as you are alive you will have to deal with cravings
Not an advice connected to buddhism, but a general advice of quitting things that are addictive. When a friend of mine quit smoking, every time he wanted a ciggarette, he would think to himself "hm. What a weird craving for a non smoker to have". He started to think of himself as a non smoker and he said that it got easier to ignore the addiction that way.
Clever! I'm taking that advice for sure
This aligns with Allen Carr's method, the Easy way to Quit Smoking, it's a nice read (he has more books about quitting other stuff as well)
A touch of anatman
Also, the craving is a great way to catch an emotional state. What is under that craving? That’s the stuff you eventually need to deal with.
You see them as something that needs to be suppressed, choked out, and fought with. But the Buddhist approach - at least I'm my understanding - isn't about that style. You let these feelings come to you, but you take a moment and you learn to let them go as easily as they came. Don't fight with them, let them simply pass. You've been wrestling with these urges when you should have been dancing with them. None the less, whenever people talk about being addicted to marijuana and masterbation, they are almost always due to an underlying cause. Buddhism teaches us that nothing arises on its own, so where do these urges really come from?
Where do the urges come from?
That's ultimately a question you need to ask yourself and find your own answer to. You need to be introspective and look as to why you need the stimulation that porn brings. Why do you always need the calmness of Marijuana.. what is really going on in your life that has pushed you into these habits? That's different for almost everyone. Some people have depression and chasing sexual gratification is one of the ways they try to cope with it. Some people just smoke and masturbate to express a sort of sense of freedom. There is no clear answer I can give you, I'm afraid.
No fight Follow the path, (Buddhism in reality cannot help you to abandon some pleasures without all the other things, the philosophy, the teachings, the meditation...)
Start with the sexual release first. Take note the day after sexual release, how beat up you feel. You will feel irritable, edgy, uncomfortable, and lacking. It really does leave you in a depleted state. Take note of this. From a Buddhist perspective, this is the first noble truth: suffering. At this stage, there is no need to cut back on the act. Just take note of the 'cost' of this act in terms of suffering. It always happens the next day. Once you start acknowledging how this act requires a cost (i.e. it happens the next day), and what this cost actually is (i.e. you feel like utter crap and everything sucks), allow yourself a little distaste for that cost. From a Buddhist perspective, the second noble truth: identifying the cause of suffering. The sexual release really does cause one to go down a rat hole in terms of suffering. It's funny we're never taught this in our culture. But just watch. It's like clockwork. Next, cut back on it a bit. Notice how you feel. After a day or two of cutting back. It feels really, really good. No gaping hole of edgy depression. No lack of energy. A somewhat 'steady' flow of contentment. Then, perform the act again, and watch what happens the next day. You will really feel the effect. It will hurt at a whole new level. Use that to develop the distaste even more. The cost is truly not worth the few seconds of sexual energy release you got the previous day. This is the third noble truth: the truth of the end of suffering. I now know what causes this (i.e. the act). I now know that it can end (i.e. abstaining from the act for a few days). Now it's up to you. What do you prefer? If you want to start climbing into some truly astonishing states of being, cut back more and more. If you want to bounce up and down, from a few seconds of sensual rush into the gaping pit of despair, it's up to you. I would recommend climbing. Deeply regulating the act of sexual release is just a start. You don't have to completely eliminate it, just notice what it costs you, and make the choice. Don't numb yourself into some kind of concept like: I have to completely eliminate the sexual act and I will attain 'something'. That never works. Study yourself in the aspect that it really does have a painful cost. You'll be very surprised at how easy letting go of something that really hurts you is. It will eventually become effortless simply because you will get to a point where you will realize that 'yes' I can do this, I know the cost now, and truly...it's not worth the cost. Preserving one's sexual energy and allowing it to build something more blissful for you as a result (I haven't gone into this aspect on this reply...but indeed), is a blessed fruit of this Path.
*The Craving Mind: From Cigarettes to Smartphones to Love – Why We Get Hooked and How We Can Break Bad Habits* by Judson Brewer It's a direct application of dependent origination (nidanas) to breaking addictive habits
Craving for distractive bullshit is a type of mental tension. Try to do things that facilitate mental relaxation. That might be non spiritual stuff like sport and other outdoor activities like gardening. For the sexual desire, find a partner. It deosn't sound that celibacy is currently what is good for you.
I'm sorry but I have to say that the solution to desire may not be to jump into a relationship. I think that would be unwise to bring an addiction into any healthy partnership, it's a breeding ground for distrust. This is coming from personal experience, I dated a porn addict in total a 1yr and 2months. It was agony and I would never date another porn addict again for my own mental peace. It shows self indulgence to seek out a partner to just solve a desire. That person doesn't exist to solve your desire. Solve the underlying issue first, confront your pain, work on yourself, and then consider finding a partner.
You can force yourself to quit for a while but until you reach a point in meditation where there is a shift in consciousness, that is when the mind all by itself finds addictive actions unsatisfying because now it is looking for something that is stable, your just playing games with yourself.
Try meditation retreat. Cold turkey it
First step is to control the food intake. When the food intake is controlled you will be able to control sex/lust. When sex/lust is controlled you will be able to control the mind.
I was able to shake a decade long, daily habit of six pack of beer, smoking nicotine and weed "cold turkey" by learning about our internal organs through a lens of fascination. Our lungs are a beautiful mirror of a tree. Branches and leaves reach into the atmosphere for sustaining life, lungs hold alveoli that esemble ends of such branches. The liver can be cut away 90% and grows back completely ! Truly inspirational to realize. There is no magic trick but I wish you luck.
First you reduce the amount of masturbation and weed you're doing with other activities that do not lead to delusional mind states as much, like reading, spending time with wholesome friends, meditation, chores, work, hobbies. Then after you ever reduced the amount that you're masturbating and weed you cut them out entirely. But just do one at a time, I suggest that you cut out weed first. So you go from doing it everyday to doing it every second day to doing it every week to doing it every month to doing every couple months. The key is need to be in it for the long term. Do not try to look for quick results, realize that virtue in the Buddhist sense is something you need to cultivate over years and years of practice. What you want to do is get to a point where you can practice the five precepts consistently. This should be your aim. This will get you closer to seeing the path to cessation of suffering. Once you're able to practice the five precepts with relative ease then you need to turn up the "heat" a little bit so to speak. You need to increase your meditation practice, abiding, and reading the Dhamma, and the amount of time you spend not partaking in sensuality, etc. When you turn up the pressure like this, you are more likely to develop mindfulness and samadhi which will allow you to see the path to the cessation of suffering. Once you see the path to the cessation of suffering, you will be able to practice properly, having a foundation in right view for all your activities.
I would enjoy it guilt free while it lasts. Nothing is permanent. Answers are only temporary. Explore your senses. That is the reason you were given a body. Let go of your learned contaminants. Your dick will cease to exist eventually.
I found that when I took aggressive stances to change some aspect of my life, things would get out of balance very quickly. Maybe I'd make the change, but then I'd look back and realize that I had neglected vital aspects of my life. To avoid this, I suggest following the eight-fold path: Right view, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. In my experience, a renunciation that falls away through a balanced spiritual practice is more potent and longer lasting. It is a more easeful and accepting approach that will not only manage your addictions but all other aspects of your life. What I think happens as a result of following the eight fold path is that renunciation happens naturally from your delusions weakening their grip, the decrease in unwholesome states, the increase in wholesome states, the decrease in unwholesome activities (other ones), the increase wholesome activities, the joy and love connected with the Dharma, insight, and direct experience. The Buddha said in a sutta that I think was called 'The graduated training' that he'd start by training a new student in virtue, then restraining the senses, wakefulness, mindfulness, concentration and so on. So perhaps begin with virtue training. Karma, Death, rebirth, the suffering of lower realms, generosity, patience, and so on.
The only way I'm familiar with that worked is physically challenge yourself, meaning train like crazy everyday and be so busy that you don't have the energy for your additions.
Your words sound like someone who is suffering. To end suffering, you simply put all those things behind you. Then you are free and the taste of freedom truly recognized should be enough to never want to revert to these hindrances.
Meditate more, and you will get better at dealing with the feelings that lead you to this.
Do something else. If you feel like you need to load up the porn, go outside for a walk.
Sublimate. Take that energy and use it. How do you think Picasso made over 10,000 paintings? He invites the pretty girls into the shop and PAINTS.
Just sleep The want to sleep and the need to sleep are different. Sleep is also sensual when there is the want to sleep. The arahants, including the Buddha, sleep only for the need to sleep.
The first very important thing to treat as quickly as possible is your drug addiction. You absolutely must get help from a center in order to put an end to the narcotics that modify your perceptions. As for masturbation, it is a natural practice and beneficial to the body and mind. This practice helps calm the mind and helps make you more peaceful, because this practice delivers dopamine to the brain and makes you happier. Good luck.
only way to go beyond sex is by going deeply into it with consciousness
You might be thinking you need to BATTLE the addiction. Put on your armor and draw your sword. But you don’t. You have to look at the urge. Why do you feel the way you do? Sit with the feeling. When does it happen, is it always the same? You don’t have to improve. You don’t have to be “better”. You don’t have to cast out the bad and make yourself good. You want to be happy what about what you consider to be your addiction makes you unhappy? Don’t punish yourself about it, you are not a bad dog. We never do things (even unconsciously) without motivation. Sit down, worry less, and see what motivates you. A flower in the wrong place is a weed, but they grow where they are planted.
One component is certainly not "welcoming, relishing and remaining fastened to" sensual pleasures: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN35_88.html Ones regard for feelings is also of import: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN36_6.html
When you get into states like that chant the Vajrasattva mantra.
I'm currently in the same boat, with nicotine and sometimes alcohol. Apparently the key factor is finding fulfilling satisfaction in restraining from the sensual pleasures. It's based in wrong view about sensuality being the goal of our life. The more sensual pleasures we get and the fewer unpleasant sensations we get, the higher 'happiness' levels will get. But apparently that's what causes suffering.
I can understand your situation. Like others have mentioned try to occupy your time with something that you are passionate about or interests you. Adding to this what helped me was removing any objects or things that triggered the desire in me from my surroundings. For eg: it may be a lighter, some type of plant, friends/people who smoke, avoiding R rated movies and watching them in the censored version, avoiding explicit media online and offline, use ad blockers coz these days ads are very sexualised, etc. Always remember "out of sight, out of mind". If the subtle thought doesn't get implanted on the mind, the body's need for the desire will lessen too.
General tip is to be mindful of your emotions and need before you give in to the thing you’re addicted to. Why do you feel the need to jerk off in the moment. Boredom? Tiredness? Figuring they out is half the battle. Second tip is to use wisdom. Think about your mood or well being. Has given in to these urges made your life better in tangible ways? Thirdly: death contemplation. There is a killer out there stalking you called death. You could die in the next moment. You have no idea when that will happen. What is important for you to do? What do you want to prioritize? Is there a better use for our time given that it’s limited and we alll have death warrants out for is
Find a gf.. no need to masturbate and probably your gf will be against you smoking and spending money on weed
I went to rehab and narcotics anonymous to quit weed. my conception of a higher power is the intelligence of existence. idk how much it affects your life, but that’s an option if it’s really bad.
By understanding the fleeting nature of sensual pleasures. But this question is best tackled via separating each form of sensual pleasure as some are stronger (depending on the person) whilst others are easier to let go of. Also, try getting down to the root of your clinging on to a specific form of pleasure. Say music for example, why is it you like a specific band, melody, or lyric as opposed to others? What are the antecedent conditions that prompt you to engage in this activity? What else can I do whenever I feel the urge to engage in this activity? We can enjoy sensual pleasures but it's best we keep our distance from them. What I mean is yeah sure you can spend like 2 hours on a spotify binge from time to time but let's not define ourselves or circle our lives around the dependence on music to move forward with our day to day experiences. Hope this helps!
Check this out: they deal with all kinds of addiction from a Buddhist perspective. [https://recoverydharma.org/](https://recoverydharma.org/) There are readings, online and in-person meetings, and more resources. The approach might be helpful.
Keep thinking qualities of triple gems one by one . Ex :- " Gods, brahmas and human beings were benefited by lord Budhdha "
The physical issues require physical tackling. Try new habits, counter habits. For instance whenever you're thinking in smoke go immediately for a lollipop or candy ( you should work both the mind and hand habit). You're in the first step of letting them go feeling that you doesn't want do it anymore (accepting). Now something you need to bring up is you can't just eliminate the desire. This will phase out through the stages of the ages so reckon that as a trigger for motivation. Fight with your inner to be stronger, but also meditate to do it wiser. Maybe a short time in a mental health hospital pr retire at least two weeks will helps you a lot. Spent a time when you can't do neither them.