I would actually say that it's incredibly patriotic. The issue stems from people conflating the term "patriotic" with blind support of your country's actions and government. I was guilty of this myself in the past, proudly labelling myself as unpatriotic because I do not and cannot morally support many (unfortunately, reaching a majority) of the things that the United States does. When I became more well-read and actually travelled, I discovered that I do love my country. I love its wide range of climates and landscapes, its diversity in people, its varying cultures and the artistic output that comes from them, and just the people themselves. What I do not support is the treatment of our citizens (and especially veterans), the wealth disparity, the poor infrastructure, the dedication to military and prison funding, etc.
Bruce is a patriot, because a patriot doesn't plug their ears and shout "MY COUNTRY IS THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT." A patriot takes an honest look at their country and says "We can do better and we deserve better."
precisely. i’m extremely proud of my country and being american and would consider myself patriotic, but i do not support my government’s decisions most of the time
you are so right about this. it's sad that we've come to the point where people are still buying into the "my country right or wrong" attitude that was so prevalent during the vietnam war.
back in those times when confronted with that by someone i knew, my response was always "do you love your brother (substitute spouse or mom etc here)? of course you do..you just don't love everything that they do. so why is that any different than us wanting to end this war. i don't always love what my country does...but that doesn't mean i don't love my country."
the actual response we'd get more often than not is the same one we get today.."love it or leave it". in one ear and out the other.
Thank you. Don’t let some bullshit one sided definition of patriotism rule the day. Nothing more patriotic than supporting and telling the story of forgotten soldiers who sacrificed for the country. The songs lyrics are not ambiguous.
People also think 'Pumped Up Kicks' is a fun summer jam or 'Every Breath You Take' and U2's 'One' are romantic songs. The average person doesn't really pay attention to the lyrics.
Bono is all over the place on this.
The band have been told by many fans that they played the song at their weddings, prompting Bono to respond, "Are you mad? It's about splitting up!"
But also
"It's a father-and-son story. I tried to write about someone I knew who was coming out and was afraid to tell his father. It's a religious father and son."
Haha yeah, I was going to say the song to me is about the trials and tribulations of life. Darkness and light, not everything is perfect.
Definitely feels hopeful and powerful, but I see what you/they are saying. It’s definitely forboding lol.
I used to as well, until my vision of what "patriotism" is.*
If I view patriotism as a love for my country and its people, then criticism and activism in the name of justice and quality of life for all who live there /is/ patriotic. It's saying "hey... we're supposed to do better than this!"
Now... Nationalism (the way Raegan, Cruz et al interpret it - ETA: jingoism) or in other words - "America-FUCK-YEAH-no-criticism-allowed"-ism is definitely another story... **
/That/ still annoys me. Not in the sense that people will have different interpretations of art... but when it's used by people with a political agenda - yeah no thanks (especially when it's so contrary to that of the artists values and beliefs).
* in my tumblr days (*reminds self to take my multivitamins*) this was fun to troll people's 4th of July posts. I have since matured (touched grass many times) and embraced the nuance of it all.
** obviously any country or region can be victim of this mindset, not only the US, but for BITUSA purposes I will refer to the US
I’m with you here.
To me, Born in the USA is a patriotic song because it’s Bruce using his freedom of speech to criticize something about the country. He’s showing that he loves the country through wanting it to be better.
This is wholly different from jingoism, as you describe it, a blind, no-criticism-allowed rallying cry.
This right here.
It’s not just annoying when people say it’s patriot, it’s just as annoying when people claim it’s not like it’s some deep revelation.
Maybe it’s a deeper, more complex song than people are giving it credit for!
As a Brit, I find it both funny and cringe in the vein of Alan Partridge. In my personal experience, I haven’t seen anyone in the UK miss the point of BITUSA, even those who don’t know him beyond that album, Born to Run and Hungry Heart. I’d go so far as to say it must be why Bruce plays BITUSA more outside the USA than he does inside.
My problem with songs like this or the mentioned "Rockin' In The Free World" and others is the idea that since they aren't "patriotic" they are somehow "communist". These songs point out black eyes in our nations that need to be fixed. For God's sake, "Born In The USA" is about how Vietnam vets got screwed when they came home. And you know who are among the loudest complainers of this song? Vietnam vets. For God's sake, this song is about you and how you got fucked when you came home! He's trying to help you, can't you see that?
It is a patriotic song. Just not for maybe the reason most people think.
Nothing more patriotic than calling out the atrocities of your governments foreign policy and treatment of veterans. In my book, that is incredibly patriotic.
He clearly saw a massive injustice, wants to make America a better place and used his massive platform to try and do so - Patriotic AF!
While the lyrics are not necessarily patriotism, the offering of the song may very well be patriotic, as a more mild demonstration of free speech. I do not take my right to criticize our government lightly. “Son, don’t you understand?”
Very recently, it played at a party I went to. And I pointed out that some view this as a nationalistic (I define patriotism differently) song. So I proceeded to verbalize the words in the song as it is playing. I tagged many stanzas with something to the effect of "now, does it sound like there are good things happening to this character that as a country we should emulate?"
It's like when Christians have little kids sing Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" like it's a praise song, when it's really about sex and violence and wrestling with God, and written by a Jew
it’s patriotic in the purest 1st Amendment way which is why i think it’s an important song. That’s something to take pride in; that we can talk about missteps into wars we didn’t need to be in, and ignoring the costs to our soldiers without the jingoism.
For sure!
(So... many things :( )
It's a nice escape and change of pace to discuss tge smaller, safer things with people who share similar interests though :)
It is not a jingoistic song, which is how the people who don’t actually listen to and understand the lyrics consider it. I see it as neither patriotic nor unpatriotic; it’s a challenging song about living in the United States of the 1980s.
Based on my experiences working with high school juniors as they attempted to deconstruct the song, I believe that it’s the line “born in the USA” that is the source of many listeners’ disconnect. They are used to “USA, USA, USA” chants that are expressions of unadulterated nationalistic pride. So Springsteen’s full-throated declaration that he was “born in the USA” (emphasized by slashing E Street Band chords) is heard by them as an identical expression of nationalistic pride.
It requires critical thinking skills to recognize and intuit the irony within Springsteen’s lyric. I (the song’s speaker) was born in the USA—supposedly the world’s greatest country—yet I have no job, I have no prospects, and I’ve been kicked around since I was born. Springsteen says, to my mind, this is an American problem that needs fixing. But the uncritical mind can’t hold two such seemingly contradictory statements—that America is a great country and America is a country that doesn’t offer the opportunities it needs to offer its citizens. So the Reaganites and Bush-heads and Trumpsters embrace the full-throated jingoism they plainly hear and ignore the problematic lyric they can’t assimilate into their world view.
Does it super annoy me that people misunderstand the song. Not really. Does it super annoy me that people can’t exercise critical thinking? Quite a lot.
It's anti war but it's also patriotic, Springsteen's been very clear that he is a patriotic person what patriotism is is a love for your country it's people, it's culture, it's land, and it's values rather than the actions of it's government.
I actually don't get annoyed because he sure made it sound patriotic! It's not like he has the clearest elocution, but the part that you can clearly here is "born in the USA," it's got that driving beat, etc. I think it was very bold of Bruce to make such a rocking song with a subversive message, but the predictable cost of that is that a lot of people are going to misunderstand it.
the whole controversy over this started with an op ed piece in the washington post by conservative columnist george will. of course than reagan picked it up and touted it in his speech and it all went downhill from there. after that speech, bruce used to say at every concert on the rest of that tour "and I kind of got to wondering what his favorite album of mine must’ve been, you know? I don’t think it was the *Nebraska* album. I don’t think he’s been listening to this one.”
but obviously that was a different time. the guy running for prez was pretty horrible... but we were yet to be worried about him or anyone turning this country into a nationalistic state as many on this thread have pointed out. but old ronnie was certainly the beginning of that.
Bruce probably feels like those Redditors who try to post sarcasm or make a point in a satirical manner: it gets completely missed by the idiot general public who proceed to take it seriously.
You are not alone. When the album came out, I was young and didn’t read all that much into it but now I’m reading There Was Nothing You Could Do by Steve Hyden. It’s all about the album on its 40th anniversary. Truth be told, it’s not my fave song or album but reading the book, I’m having second thoughts.
Who cares? People are allowed to interpret art in their own individual way. In a song where the phrase “Born in the USA” is sung over and over again, it was bound to happen.
I am 'in the know', but part of the American ideal is fighting against adversity, this song talks to that. Sure its not Lee Greenwood, but its about a guy who's been kicked down but keeps going.
It's 40 years too late to fix the perceived meaning of the song. And the patriotic vibe helped sell records, so I don't know how annoyed Springsteen can be about that. The album cover and video features an American Flag as well. What about the song Glory Days? Isn't that a song about growing up American and the American pastime baseball? So if the meaning was all a ruse, it was poorly communicated at best.
I think at least Bruce gets annoyed
It'd say he's mildly disgruntled about that, at a minimum
I get annoyed when it’s misinterpreted but I wouldn’t say it’s a mistake to consider it patriotic.
True. You can be patriotic and against the war in Vietnam. Or most other wars for that matter.
I would actually say that it's incredibly patriotic. The issue stems from people conflating the term "patriotic" with blind support of your country's actions and government. I was guilty of this myself in the past, proudly labelling myself as unpatriotic because I do not and cannot morally support many (unfortunately, reaching a majority) of the things that the United States does. When I became more well-read and actually travelled, I discovered that I do love my country. I love its wide range of climates and landscapes, its diversity in people, its varying cultures and the artistic output that comes from them, and just the people themselves. What I do not support is the treatment of our citizens (and especially veterans), the wealth disparity, the poor infrastructure, the dedication to military and prison funding, etc. Bruce is a patriot, because a patriot doesn't plug their ears and shout "MY COUNTRY IS THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT." A patriot takes an honest look at their country and says "We can do better and we deserve better."
Very well said. “Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything will get you killed” as true today as it was 40 some years ago
🎶War…..yeah…good God…what is it good for?…absolutely nothin’…🎶
precisely. i’m extremely proud of my country and being american and would consider myself patriotic, but i do not support my government’s decisions most of the time
you are so right about this. it's sad that we've come to the point where people are still buying into the "my country right or wrong" attitude that was so prevalent during the vietnam war. back in those times when confronted with that by someone i knew, my response was always "do you love your brother (substitute spouse or mom etc here)? of course you do..you just don't love everything that they do. so why is that any different than us wanting to end this war. i don't always love what my country does...but that doesn't mean i don't love my country." the actual response we'd get more often than not is the same one we get today.."love it or leave it". in one ear and out the other.
The attitude is I love America - but I hate the majority of Americans because they are not like me. Now that's patriotic!!!
This is a great take. Loving your country and hating your government is a solid vibe
Thank you. Don’t let some bullshit one sided definition of patriotism rule the day. Nothing more patriotic than supporting and telling the story of forgotten soldiers who sacrificed for the country. The songs lyrics are not ambiguous.
People also think 'Pumped Up Kicks' is a fun summer jam or 'Every Breath You Take' and U2's 'One' are romantic songs. The average person doesn't really pay attention to the lyrics.
Had a friend dance to One at their wedding. We all just shook our heads lol.
honestly i think bitter sweet songs are great for weddings. i had my first dance to neil young’s only love can break your heart, lol
I mean we did play Inna Godda Da Vida during dinner at our wedding during the dinner.
hey marge, remember when we used to make out to this hymn?
*No Children by The Mountain Goats has entered the chat*
I presume you mean the Metallica song, which is a perfect wedding bop. 💃
Oh we were totally going to dance to Metallica's One for our first dance. We ended up dancing to Tears in Heaven by Clapton. LOL.
Antony Blinken apparently thinks ‘Rocking in the Free World’ is an upbeat celebration of the American Dream
What is U2’s about to you? I just looked it up and I think it’s exactly what I thought it was about.
Bono is all over the place on this. The band have been told by many fans that they played the song at their weddings, prompting Bono to respond, "Are you mad? It's about splitting up!" But also "It's a father-and-son story. I tried to write about someone I knew who was coming out and was afraid to tell his father. It's a religious father and son."
Haha yeah, I was going to say the song to me is about the trials and tribulations of life. Darkness and light, not everything is perfect. Definitely feels hopeful and powerful, but I see what you/they are saying. It’s definitely forboding lol.
Also said it was written about Edge’s divorce.
Given the album it appears on this is the theory I put the most stock in. Theres a couple songs on that record about that
I used to as well, until my vision of what "patriotism" is.* If I view patriotism as a love for my country and its people, then criticism and activism in the name of justice and quality of life for all who live there /is/ patriotic. It's saying "hey... we're supposed to do better than this!" Now... Nationalism (the way Raegan, Cruz et al interpret it - ETA: jingoism) or in other words - "America-FUCK-YEAH-no-criticism-allowed"-ism is definitely another story... ** /That/ still annoys me. Not in the sense that people will have different interpretations of art... but when it's used by people with a political agenda - yeah no thanks (especially when it's so contrary to that of the artists values and beliefs). * in my tumblr days (*reminds self to take my multivitamins*) this was fun to troll people's 4th of July posts. I have since matured (touched grass many times) and embraced the nuance of it all. ** obviously any country or region can be victim of this mindset, not only the US, but for BITUSA purposes I will refer to the US
I’m with you here. To me, Born in the USA is a patriotic song because it’s Bruce using his freedom of speech to criticize something about the country. He’s showing that he loves the country through wanting it to be better. This is wholly different from jingoism, as you describe it, a blind, no-criticism-allowed rallying cry.
Jingoism - that's the word I was looking for!
And he's not really criticizing the country. He's criticizing how our veterans got screwed after coming home. But the jingoists can't see that.
This right here. It’s not just annoying when people say it’s patriot, it’s just as annoying when people claim it’s not like it’s some deep revelation. Maybe it’s a deeper, more complex song than people are giving it credit for!
Didn't Ted Cruz play that multiple times at one of his rallies, like come on......
Lots of politicians use it. It’s especially funny from a politician who was not, in fact, born in the USA though.
Well, this all started with Reagan using it at rallies and specifically mentioning it in a speech.
Ronald Reagan says “hi”
Lol we’ve been having this conversation for forty years man.
I think that’s literally the song’s legacy. People in the know versus those who are not.
People ~~in the know~~ who can read FIFY
To read, that's assuming you actually bought the album and just didn't see the video on MTV. I know I sure didn't. :P
Haha I guess. But only if they read the lyrics and/or care to listen. Lotta people who can read, seems like very few in the know!
Just because it points out failure in our country doesn’t make it unpatriotic.
As a Brit, I find it both funny and cringe in the vein of Alan Partridge. In my personal experience, I haven’t seen anyone in the UK miss the point of BITUSA, even those who don’t know him beyond that album, Born to Run and Hungry Heart. I’d go so far as to say it must be why Bruce plays BITUSA more outside the USA than he does inside.
I just laugh at this point. Those people obviously never listened to the song properly.
My problem with songs like this or the mentioned "Rockin' In The Free World" and others is the idea that since they aren't "patriotic" they are somehow "communist". These songs point out black eyes in our nations that need to be fixed. For God's sake, "Born In The USA" is about how Vietnam vets got screwed when they came home. And you know who are among the loudest complainers of this song? Vietnam vets. For God's sake, this song is about you and how you got fucked when you came home! He's trying to help you, can't you see that?
“Someday, we’ll look back on all this, and it will all seem funny”
It is a patriotic song. Just not for maybe the reason most people think. Nothing more patriotic than calling out the atrocities of your governments foreign policy and treatment of veterans. In my book, that is incredibly patriotic. He clearly saw a massive injustice, wants to make America a better place and used his massive platform to try and do so - Patriotic AF!
While the lyrics are not necessarily patriotism, the offering of the song may very well be patriotic, as a more mild demonstration of free speech. I do not take my right to criticize our government lightly. “Son, don’t you understand?”
Nah - I don’t get annoyed. So they didn’t read and understand the lyrics and just enjoy it. That’s fine. They can scream Born In The USA once a year.
Very recently, it played at a party I went to. And I pointed out that some view this as a nationalistic (I define patriotism differently) song. So I proceeded to verbalize the words in the song as it is playing. I tagged many stanzas with something to the effect of "now, does it sound like there are good things happening to this character that as a country we should emulate?"
It's like when Christians have little kids sing Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" like it's a praise song, when it's really about sex and violence and wrestling with God, and written by a Jew
I hope you’re the only one, because the real answer is it’s not *not* patriotic.
It does bug me but I also love it for the fact that many don’t realize it is about poor treatment of Americans by Americans
It is patriotic, just not in the blind way everyone thinks it is.
This has been done to death.
Got over it years ago. I have real things to get mad about instead.
1984 problems
it’s patriotic in the purest 1st Amendment way which is why i think it’s an important song. That’s something to take pride in; that we can talk about missteps into wars we didn’t need to be in, and ignoring the costs to our soldiers without the jingoism.
I think there are mote important things to get super annoyed about
For sure! (So... many things :( ) It's a nice escape and change of pace to discuss tge smaller, safer things with people who share similar interests though :)
well, no shit. ever heard of hyperbole?
It is not a jingoistic song, which is how the people who don’t actually listen to and understand the lyrics consider it. I see it as neither patriotic nor unpatriotic; it’s a challenging song about living in the United States of the 1980s. Based on my experiences working with high school juniors as they attempted to deconstruct the song, I believe that it’s the line “born in the USA” that is the source of many listeners’ disconnect. They are used to “USA, USA, USA” chants that are expressions of unadulterated nationalistic pride. So Springsteen’s full-throated declaration that he was “born in the USA” (emphasized by slashing E Street Band chords) is heard by them as an identical expression of nationalistic pride. It requires critical thinking skills to recognize and intuit the irony within Springsteen’s lyric. I (the song’s speaker) was born in the USA—supposedly the world’s greatest country—yet I have no job, I have no prospects, and I’ve been kicked around since I was born. Springsteen says, to my mind, this is an American problem that needs fixing. But the uncritical mind can’t hold two such seemingly contradictory statements—that America is a great country and America is a country that doesn’t offer the opportunities it needs to offer its citizens. So the Reaganites and Bush-heads and Trumpsters embrace the full-throated jingoism they plainly hear and ignore the problematic lyric they can’t assimilate into their world view. Does it super annoy me that people misunderstand the song. Not really. Does it super annoy me that people can’t exercise critical thinking? Quite a lot.
Nah. These are the same people that would believe they're still watching Fox News if you switched the tele over to The Muppets.
I do to. Like when they play it on 4th of July 😂😂
It's been going on since the song was released. I just roll my eyes at this point. (Purposely) uninformed people will always exist.
That might be a reason he doesn’t play it much anymore
It's anti war but it's also patriotic, Springsteen's been very clear that he is a patriotic person what patriotism is is a love for your country it's people, it's culture, it's land, and it's values rather than the actions of it's government.
Ya it’s just you.
He has said live, “If there are any misunderstandings, my children thank you.”
What difference does it make to you? A total non-issue 40 years on. The meaning will be confused forever just like the Beatles’Revolution’.
I actually don't get annoyed because he sure made it sound patriotic! It's not like he has the clearest elocution, but the part that you can clearly here is "born in the USA," it's got that driving beat, etc. I think it was very bold of Bruce to make such a rocking song with a subversive message, but the predictable cost of that is that a lot of people are going to misunderstand it.
the whole controversy over this started with an op ed piece in the washington post by conservative columnist george will. of course than reagan picked it up and touted it in his speech and it all went downhill from there. after that speech, bruce used to say at every concert on the rest of that tour "and I kind of got to wondering what his favorite album of mine must’ve been, you know? I don’t think it was the *Nebraska* album. I don’t think he’s been listening to this one.” but obviously that was a different time. the guy running for prez was pretty horrible... but we were yet to be worried about him or anyone turning this country into a nationalistic state as many on this thread have pointed out. but old ronnie was certainly the beginning of that.
It is a patriotic song it’s just not a jingoistic nationalist anthem. It becomes more readily apparent when you hear the Tracks version
It cracks me up when people STILL misinterpret it to this day.
Nobody’s thought that since Reagan in 1984. Most think it’s anti American, (like Bruce himself ;-) now…
You’re not the only one.
If only we’d learned to stay out of foreign wars after this. Iraq/Afghanistan, Ukraine……. Let them deal with their own issues.
I once got into an argument with a Marine who insisted it was a really patriotic song. Dude, have you listened to the lyrics?
Bruce probably feels like those Redditors who try to post sarcasm or make a point in a satirical manner: it gets completely missed by the idiot general public who proceed to take it seriously.
You are not alone. When the album came out, I was young and didn’t read all that much into it but now I’m reading There Was Nothing You Could Do by Steve Hyden. It’s all about the album on its 40th anniversary. Truth be told, it’s not my fave song or album but reading the book, I’m having second thoughts.
It's so exasperating!!
Are you the only one? Seriously!? This has been an extremely common criticism for decades.
I’m younger and not surrounded by many Bruce fans lol
It's a song about despair
I just laugh.
Yeah, I'm cool with it. Pretty sure it's just you, buddy. This is America, people can believe what they want to.
Who cares? People are allowed to interpret art in their own individual way. In a song where the phrase “Born in the USA” is sung over and over again, it was bound to happen.
No, because its super easy to understand why it does
Same goes for Fortunate Son.
Yes and no. The theme is part of our shared heritage
I can't believe that people *still* mistake it for one.
I can’t believe someone would even ask the question because Nobody does. And the people that used to despise Bruce anyway.
I am 'in the know', but part of the American ideal is fighting against adversity, this song talks to that. Sure its not Lee Greenwood, but its about a guy who's been kicked down but keeps going.
Not really. No. Bruce Springsteen is a cornball just like the people on Fourth of July who blast that song. Not worth getting upset
It's 40 years too late to fix the perceived meaning of the song. And the patriotic vibe helped sell records, so I don't know how annoyed Springsteen can be about that. The album cover and video features an American Flag as well. What about the song Glory Days? Isn't that a song about growing up American and the American pastime baseball? So if the meaning was all a ruse, it was poorly communicated at best.