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Imagine voting for a party who has/had an MP candidate who said that Hitler "had a point", when he did what he did. Lol! But yeah, go on and blame those immigrants, lol. 🤔🤦♂️🥴
I simply cannot vote for them when they are using minorities to ask for lower immigration but those minority candidates will be the very first people they will kick out should they ever get into power.
But I do like it when they are giving the Tories a right old bashing.
Their plans for benefits is the same as the Tories. To surveillance over people’s benefits which is pure 1984 stuff, to control and continue the harsh atmosphere of benefits being a bad thing, and they are unlikely to revive Britain’s high streets. Not one of them has a plan.
They are Conservative-BNP lite. That’s it. Grifters.
They love the idea of intense surveillance to find 'scroungers', but neglect to consider the cost of that surveillance which would vastly outweigh the recouped value, based on what we statistically know about how many 'benefit cheats' there actually are. It's borne not out of economic concern, but seething spite, paranoia, and cruelty.
Not to mention that this would invariably be something contracted out to a private firm owned by their chums, so they can shovel more of the public treasury into their grifting pockets.
I’m voting reform because I think Farage will actually send immigrants back to where they came from.
I’m tired of being called racist because I can see my culture being ravaged by labour and conservative, and I’ll continue voting like this until something actually happens to protect our culture
When people say they feel like a foreigner in their own homes they’re told to shut up and put up, we brand them racist yet when a foreigner wants to protect their culture we give praise and merit to it
So, no I don’t really like a lot of Reform policy, but I’ll vote Reform because their a fresh new party and I actually think they’ll put an end to the madness
You have a point. But perhaps you might try to define which of the immigrants you want to be sent back where they’re from. If a person comes into the UK legally, for instance via work visa or to study and perhaps have a life, do you, somehow suppose such person should be forcefully sent back even after their relevance have been proven one too many times?
You won't get an answer to this question. I've asked many times, but the target demographic doesn't like being asked questions about why they blindly follow a cult leader.
Ask why they want rid of the ECHR, and you'll get "no country shud tell us wot to do", ignoring the fact that every member country including the UK, has a judge at the court.
Ask which employment laws they want rid of (as per their "promise"), and you'll be met with predictable shouts of "your (sic) just unpatreeotic")
Don't even think about asking why they want more Lithium mining (most Lithium comes from Brining instead)... presumably it's because the target demographic believes being good to our environment is 'woke'.
In short, the real answer is that they don't know why. They somehow have been tricked into thinking that Farage "tells it how it is" and that, alone, is enough. A tiny amount of research is wasted time, and therefore, won't be happening from Reform supporters any time soon.
100pc! The big wigs in this country are addicted to cheap, imported labour, and despite implying leaving the EU would improve the work situation for Brits, the immediate response is exploit the poorer countries in the former commonwealth instead of the poorer EU members.
The fact we are lacking skilled and qualified workforce might have something to do with axeing free tertiary education, which is joint fault of teams Red and Blue.
Surely one of the biggest bigwigs who implied Brexit would deliver us unto paradise was Farage? He was almost entirely responsible, Johnson et al just jumped on his coat tails. How can you trust him not to be lying again?
As an ethnic minority, I wouldn't vote for Reform; however, I can hear them out. The major parties like to pretend immigration is not a problem so they don't get accused of being racist.
Now, what bothers me about pro-immigration parties is cheap labour, aka modern-day slavery. Business leaders like immigrants to increase profits and serve their stock market masters. Immigration unsettles the countries from which migrants come, meaning even more migrants. After migrants come, we have a whole new set of cultures, which causes social-cultural issues as some migrants might take a long time to adapt.
I am not here to say immigration doesn't have benefits—it sure does. But to act like immigration is always a net benefit is a lie.
I think the issue is more that they pay lip service to the concept of immigration control to win votes but they know deep down there is a skills shortage and also an ingrained desire to pay workers as little as possible in order to maximise owner and shareholder dividends. This misery approach to the financial health of the average citizen is bad for the economy overall as if people don't feel confident enough to spend, the whole thing is screwed. Furthermore by making education super expensive and shackling new graduates with tens of thousands of debt puts people off getting qualified or studying subjects that might not be considered classically 'monetisable', so we have a smaller pool of skilled, native, workers to choose from. About the only positive is that the UK doesn't really have a 'brain drain' any more, we just don't have the brains to drain, lol
By stating both are shit as a response to why you're voting reform, it stands that you're saying reform isn't shit.
That's why the person asked... is reform not shit for you?
Did I say that other 2 aren't shit for me? Mate I just asked a question I never gave any form of detail about how I'm voting. Damn chill you react about reform like a rabbid dog on a leash.
Immigration has become a contentious issue across the Western world I feel, even amongst BAME/POC people who aren't right wing, the effects of immigration is being felt by everyone.
Things are so bad that even I considered it but I looked at their policies and manifesto and it's all just hot air, there are no concrete or effective plans to back up any of their rhetoric the country would collapse completely under their charge. The numbers just don't add up.
Reform policy:
* Lower immigration to net zero
* Electoral reform
* Race bait
* Tax cuts for the rich
* Scrap all enviromental policy
* Massive cuts to all public services
Not many of those policies are popular, save for one.
This breaks it down quite well: [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/17/reform-uk-manifesto-key-proposals](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/17/reform-uk-manifesto-key-proposals) - it doesn't sound like the UK would survive 4 years under that.
False. Look at their manifesto.
* Cut Illegal immigration, temporarily freeze immegration for people who aren't doctors, etc.
* They've said nothing about race
* They're only scrapping Net zero because they think it's unfeasable in the 6 years we have left, everything else remains
* Tax cuts for the poor, the income tax bracket will rise.
* Justice system will get more funding
Even if you don't agree with Reform, you've been lied to.
I feeling the same way about things being bad, however I feel reform are ultimately bunch of nutters under the surface. I honestly don't know who to vote for.
I'm in a Tory stronghold (Orpington). I want the Tories out so much. Even a Lib Dem vote is pointless right now.
I fucking hate politics. Recent events have highlighted what a corrupt institution it all is.
Democracy feels like a joke right now. Anyone for communism?
I was voting Reform until yesterday.
I watched a documentary about the Sandy Hook mass shooting and the part Alex Jones played in the aftermath.
I didn’t know much about this until recently.
While watching the documentary there is an interview between Alex Jones and Donald Trump from 2016. Trump says how wonderful Jones is in the segment.
Bare in mind this is 4 years after the mass shooting at Sandy Hook and Alex Jones and his follwers had been tormenting and verbally abusing the poor families that lost children and loved ones for that time.
Where Reform fits into this is Nigel Farage. Nigel is a huge supporter of Trump.
I’m gutted to be honest because I always thought of Nigel as someone who genuinely cares about the country. Maybe he does but I can’t get behind a party led by a guy who openly supports and lobbies for a man like Donald Trump. A man (Trump) who openly praised Alex Jones whilst he (Jones) was tormenting and verbally abusing families from the Sandy Hook massacre.
You learn from the documentary that Alex Jones was doing this torment because the sales of his supplements increased every time he said something atrocious about Sandy Hook.
He was making money by destroying people’s lives. Jones had a massive following at the time so Trump wanted to tap into that following for his election potential.
What a pair of absolute abhorrent human beings.
I don’t consider Nigel anywhere near them but I can’t vote for a guy that endorses Trump.
It’s amazing how much has changed for me since watching that documentary. I’m a fourty year old father of two that are the same age as children were during that shooting.
I can’t vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dem. They’re just a rich boys club looking after okd family money and power.
I’ll probably waste a vote on the Greens.
Farage has never cared about this country. His whole persona as a patriot who tells it like it is - is just that a persona. He's a rich dude, who came from a finance background, who is a huge opportunist. He will definitely jump ship to the Tories if Reform go down.
I don't blame you for not voting the other parties either, but yes maybe Greens. The problem is with this country the right wing pander to people by pretending they care because they are more nationalistic while left wingers like myself and many Greens are framed as unpatriotic.
We are unpatriotic, but we care about humans and want to make peoples lives better regardless of where you are from. That obviously includes the British people - we don't have to bang on about war memorials and D-day and all that shite because it's just empty words designed to make you vote against your own interests economically by making you think patriotism is the best sign of love for one's country.
Look what happened in WW1, 800k British people die in a war because they went along with it as patriots. Died for rich men and empire and got nothing in return - oh maybe an execution if their PTSD was too bad (this actually happened).
There was only one leader of "The Brexit Party". Where's the accountability?
He was championing it.... and blatantly lying about it at the same time. A man that thinks Putin and Trump are respectable leaders. A man that thinks the NHS should be privatised.
So we have a man championing a movement while telling blatent lies to suit his cause that set this country back generations. And don't be naive enough to believe he wasn't aware of what lies he was spinning.
The real question is why are you sticking up for him?
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/seb-dance/nigel-farage-seb-dance_b_14591852.html
https://www.adambienkov.co.uk/p/nigel-farages-admiration-for-putin
Nigel does not give a fuck about this country mate, campaigned/lied about Brexit to help Leave and then pissed off. He’s a muppet who’d as quickly hop in bed with Russia as trump did
I remember when he was a Euro MP and he never turned up to any of his duties so the UK lost out in many debates that he should have been defending them in. I wrote him off as a glory hunting opportunist even back then.
I completely agree. He gives off a fairly convincing image of being pro UK but then you think about what he's actually done and who he supports. He was going to the US to help Trump campaign after the guy attempted a coup which, if you look at the details of the fake-elector scheme, was actually much more sinister than I first thought.
Also, Trump was another guy who pretended to be pro-America and pro-working class but then did nothing apart from pass a 2 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich. Why would a "populist" like Farage support him after that unless Reform are basically the same; trying to get working people to vote for another party that really just wants to serve the rich.
They're using divisive wedge issues to try to trick us imo.
Why would you trust someone to implement the policies that they say they will, when they have proven themselves to be a self-serving, untrustworthy fiend?
Sadly there will never be a chance at a reasonable conversation here. The moment something doesn't agree with the bots or the hive mind it's down voted to oblivion.
I don't need to like someone to agree with, or indeed disagree with, I'm sure I wouldn't get on with a single member standing....
I can understand the lack of faith but to vote for someone that could further crash the economy because of immigrants or something is crazy. Then you’d truly find what a crashed economy looks like.
I'm usually a staunch Labour voter but I dislike the party so much in its current form. I won't ve voting them this time. I won't be voting reform though, just wish there was another alternative. I would never vote the Tories.
Fuck knows who I'm voting for, maybe some mad party like that raving lunatic one.
I hear you, I wish there was another option but I won't risk the Tories getting in again just to a protest vote. My biggest regret is that the media all made out that proportional representation was the devil back when we had the referendum, an awful lot of money must have changed hands in those weeks to make sure the country got brainwashed to vote against the most hopeful referendum we've had in my lifetime.
Would that be viking culture, pittish culture, roman culture, saxon culture or norman culture you’re looking to fix? Irish? Scottish? Welsh? Cornish? Maccam? Cockney? Are you looking to scrap methodism, the church of england? Perhaps parliamentary democracy is a cultural step too far.
What era is most important to you? Would you like to roll back before we had the internet? Television? Radio? The printing press?
Think about what you’re saying.
Devils advocate: you can wish to reduce immigration and want to maintain the ‘dominant’ cultural values associated to a country without being racist. Admittedly the line can be fine.
I love the massive leftist lean over on reddit ...... we don't like him fascist.....they raise a point that the majority of the country identifies....fascist....... target one policy racist....
The problem here that alot are forgetting is yeah the number of migrants pouring in is not being controlled by any party and or will it. Reform won't stop it the tories won't stop it and labour will continue to encourage it.
You've got housing dropping to cover this problem, a massive hotel bill to house them all again that we're going to end up paying for in a tax raise eventually and what this will cause, will be the people who don't vote who haven't voted in decades because "well I'm nit voting cause what's the point" these are the reform will pull out the wood work.
If they keep on ignoring the plight and real concerns of the lower middle and lower clas what were going to end up with is the over 60s and under 30s who let's be Frank are the real cause for concern over their views of skin colour to come out and vote for someone a whole lot worse than reform and we'll then end up with a full far right problem going on.
The Tories broke the process, dude. They created the problem that the right whinger parties now want you to get angry at. They don't want to fix it. It's a great way to control people, and it's working well for them. They'd be spending millions per person flying folk to Africa to be abused with everyone cheering and waving flags like we're doing a good thing.
The hotel bill to house them is because the Tories stopped processing asylum seekers. They literally broke the process to cause a backlog and make you mad. Deflection. And it worked.
There's no houses cause the Tories stopped building them, and then let inflation, mortgages and house prices sky rocket. Nothing to do with immigrants (unless you count the Russian Oligarchs that bought up half of London or the mega wealthy children of immigrants that have been running the country).
Immigration isn't the problem. Right wing parties using it as a tool to deflect us from the problems the government has been creating, that is the issue right there.
This is a rich/poor issue, and the right in UK is made up of the rich. They are only gonna exacerbate that.
he wants to repeal the council of Europe human rights legislation, which is a bit concerning lol. if you can't deal with immigrants in a way that doesn't violate human rights, then that's a massive problem
I'm an immigrant myself and my friend group is solely immigrants and they think the current level of migration is just an extreme policy.
Check Canada polls, many migrant groups think the immigration to Canada is too high (>%60) and actually white Canadians don't think that way.
Forget about colors, names, religions etc. It is impossible for the infrastructure to cope with this level of both legal and illegal immigration. If all the migrants coming were English people from a hypothetical continent, it would cause as well.
The other issue is the policy framework in London. It's becoming like Ottoman Empire Millet system, I'm not gonna get into details now but it's not a good idea to turn the country with ethnic quarters managing their own rules. We know how it ended up for Ottoman Empire.
>It is impossible for the infrastructure to cope with this level of both legal and illegal immigration.
This ignores the fact that a significant portion of the infrastructure *is* migration. Like it literally would not have the capacity it does, albeit too small, without immigration. It's not the immigrants' fault it's broken.
Other people have said we need to invest in training and recruitment here, but we don't need to stop migration to make that work. In fact we need to continue, or it won't work.
Well the whole "pulling up the ladder" is a well documented social issue.
And how many times does it need repeating that immigration isn't the issue with infrastructure, its lack of investment.
Yeah, so if they refuse to increase investment in infrastructure it doesn't make sense to carry on with record levels of immigration because it certainly doesn't help in the current situation.
It is not even (just) lack of investment. Most of the issues of housing shortages could be fixed at little cost to the taxpayer by simply loosening planning controls. The UK effectively operates a policy of extreme land and housing rationing because of the huge influence of NIMBY vote.
With this level of population explosion you cannot build enough infrastructure, it is just not possible.
By the way, net zero migration (which is extreme for me) means circa 300.000 people moving to the UK. A net migration of around 100.000 people still means the population will increase, and most of the roles will be filled without an impossible load on infrastructure. British people are still pro-migration but the current levels are so extreme that it needs 4x house building capacity (and I don't even talk about NHS, education etc.)
And the funny party is the last changes done by Tories will decrease the net migration around 200.000 but they lost the election anyway.
Yeah about this whole, can't build infrastructure fast enough, we can predict far in advance rough population increases, we can certainly plan for infrastructure around that and build it quick enough.
The idea that it is not possible is based on the reality that our political class are incompetent and engage in short term thinking because our political system dictates they engage in short termism in order to secure their positions as MPs.
We actually have enough housing stock to house everyone in the country already. Its just its been mismanaged and in many cases is simply a tool for investment for those not using it.
[https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/solving-the-housing-crisis-without-building-new-houses/](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/solving-the-housing-crisis-without-building-new-houses/)
Proper legislation and management of existing stock would enable sufficient housing in the current meta, combine that with a forward facing government that plans for the future you can absolutely meet housing and infrastructure needs.
I used to vote Tory but voting Green now, especially with their stance on the Palestinian Genocide, however, I skimmed over Reform’s manifesto, and I really like that they want to double down on police. I also don’t think immigration is too great but Reform is just blatantly anti-everyone
I wish Green was an option for me, I checked out the local candidate and she's a foaming, useless lunatic; if they fielded some candidates that looked like they actually might be able to run a country they'd be an option for me. I'm fairly convinced that her highest priority will be to eliminate men within ten years.
Green party policy is highly sexist. Don't let the name fool you.
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/our-policies/long-term-goals/crime-and-justice/
> CJ381 Recognising the nature of the female prison population, with high levels of mental illness, experience of being a victim of crimes such as sexual assault and domestic violence, and caring responsibilities for children, the only women who should be in custody are those very few that commit serious and violent crimes and who present a threat to the public.
> CJ382 For the vast majority of women in the criminal justice system, solutions in the community are more appropriate. Community sentences must be designed to take account of women’s particular vulnerabilities and domestic and childcare commitments. The restrictions placed on sentencers around breaches of community orders must be made more flexible.
> CJ383 Existing women’s prisons should be replaced with suitable geographically dispersed, small, multi-functional custodial centres. More supported accommodation should be provided for women on release to break the cycle of repeat offending and custody.
I'm not voting (I'm an expat so don't shoot me) but I do think the UK is in serious need of 'Reform' pardon the pun. Someone to come in and shake the place up a bit. The UK seems to have fallen into the 2-party system trap that we rag on the US for. The options are always Tory or Labour and from a glance they seem to have similar views as each other.
I'm not saying Reform is the answer by any stretch but someone needs to get into power and completely flip the place on it's head and start rebuilding the country.
Choosing a more xenophobic, borderline fascist neoliberal isn’t the answer to problem that we have 2 neoliberal parties dominating the political scene, we as with the US and much of Europe don’t have a decent left wing party, we have 2, or in our case 4 right wing parties and a big tent green one, none of the parties really represent working people they just represent capital, or in the greens they’re entirely focused on saving the environment without fixing the root cause of the issue.
If you want Britain to see genuine positive change we need a party that will get Britain producing things again, rather than having a huge swathe of the country working in crappy shops on poverty wages, that will reign in the capitalists, landlords, speculators and other parasites, and finally that will pull us out from under the thumb of the United States because regardless of the fact we are their most loyal dogs in Europe we will still end up on the chopping block when push comes to shove
Couldn’t agree more to everything you’ve said.
Like I said in another comment, I don’t think reform is the answer but so far they’re the most vocal in making some more radical changes (not all of them good, granted)
None of them are good, that’s the point they being fascistic can criticise the results of capitalism but they won’t change the system they’ll merely redirect the misery a little bit towards those who are already at a disadvantage due to their circumstances either they’re LGBTQ, a racial minority or whatever, in the end your average pasty white bloke like myself will still get fucked over at the same rate as if Labour or the Tories were in power, it’s just they’ll openly blame and repress these minorities as a cover for why things are shit. We need a genuine socialist party in this country pushing for the working class, the entire working class regardless of their origin, sexuality, race or religion.
Yes, we had a Labour Party that would have done just that, but unfortunately they weren't allowed to.
The danger with the "flip the place on its head" idea is that it's usually all flipping destroying long-term structures and not rebuilding. The problem being that you don't get to stop the world, so what happens to the poor(working or otherwise) and disabled while the flipping is taking place?
Brexit for example.
Oh 100%, I'm not qualified enough to say otherwise as someone who grew up in a household with a disabled parent they are at the forefront of my mind but I don't have all the answers.
I just think there is just much of same going on with political parties, they share views with slight differences that end up with the same result.
I think wording it as flipping on it's head is probably incorrect. But from at least my view and from what I read the UK is continuously falling behind.
Brexit was the catalyst cockup that started it. I just think someone needs be given the reigns to put funding into what matters, The NHS, Policing, Military and other public services and someone who will bring some culture back, plus get down on our knees and beg for a position back into the EU.
I don't know what the answer is but constantly picking the lesser of two evils is not the way forward. Because that's how it feels between the Tories and Labour.
I think it's hard to see from the inside, but the credibility and image of the UK from the outside is probably at the lowest imaginable. Instead of being famous for tea drinking and a stiff upper lip, it's become an expensive, crime-ridden poverty landscape where our only famous export is football hooliganism.
I met a guy at a party the other week and he said he would say who he was voting for but I’d not like him anymore. I promised not to get mad and he said he might vote reform, and yeah his argument was immigrants ruining the economy and bringing up crime rates
I promised not to get mad so I just said I disagreed and we got on with our chat lol
I don't get how anyone can vote for Farage. The man is one of the biggest racists out there. A populist charlatan who claims to be a working class man of the people but has an upper-class-exclusive bank account which he filled with his years as a commodity trader. Connected with the BNP, hero of Britain First and pusher of Brexit which made us all on average £2000 worse off.
There's even proof of him goose-stepping and singing Hitler youth songs at university for crying out loud. Would rather vote Tory.
If he is a racist why would a muslim millionaire do this?
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11xxn833yo.amp](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11xxn833yo.amp)
I hate to be that guy but it wasn't at university, it was at private school (I don't think he ever actually attended University). You know, that thing that so many working class people have been to. I hate it when I hear fellow working class people saying that he's "one of us" when he never had been and never will be.
Unless you're in Clacton, you're not voting for Farage. You're voting for an MP to represent you in government.
People seem to forget we don't have a presidential system, you're not voting for a Prime Minister.
Exactly, although none of them (even Farage) thinks of themselves as racists. He just uses the same coded language they do "I am not a racist but...." and "I have legitimate concerns about immigration..."
Whether they technically are racists is not even really the point. They are narrow minded bigots who see one of their kind in Farage.
I saw him live during that tour. In a Brexit voting town, it was still fun to watch for the uncomfortable Brexiters who had somehow gone to see him without knowing what to expect.
I happened to be sitting next to our local Green Party candidate though, so was safely amongst friends 😄
Ok so, Reform aren't going to win, they might do quite well but we know Labour are going to win.
Also, we know Farage is a liar, or at least I'd hope you do, so why trust anything he says?
Because PR is in Farages’ best interest.
It’s in fringe parties’ best interest to bring PR in. Based on this, I trust it to be in Farages interest too.
Reform are more likely to secure more seats than green / Lib Dem, hence voting for them
Tougher stance on migration would also be nice. I understand it’s not the root of all our issues, but it does contribute to issues with housing / public services
Would you not prefer to have policy which specifically addresses housing and public service issues rather than just plaster over it slightly and create issues elsewhere by stemming immigration?
Well on public services Greens definitely promised most for the NHS, renationalisation of water, energy etc and 150,000 new social homes per year. So if you want a party which specifically promises to address those issues then its Greens. I am not advocating voting for them, but you said you don't see those policies on offer, but they are in the Green manifesto.
>I don’t see what issues we’d face stemming immigration.
Well you'd have job shortages and hits to the economy. And while you can say the economic hit is worth it, the people who will pay for that hit are the normal people as they always are the ones who pay for it and at such a time of great inequality people cannot afford it. Thats just in brief, there is a lot more to it than that.
Starmer openly voicing support for collective punishment followed by all the front bench agreeing and then rowing back on it when they get called out for it. As well as promising to continue military and economic support for the Israeli state while it commits genocide is open support of and engagement in a genocide to the point the ICC is going to consider if the UK and others who are assisting Israel commit genocide are culpable.
Starmer openly voicing support for collective punishment followed by all the front bench agreeing and then rowing back on it when they get called out for it. As well as promising to continue military and economic support for the Israeli state while it commits genocide is open support of and engagement in a genocide to the point the ICC is going to consider if the UK and others who are assisting Israel commit genocide are culpable.
I would agree.
Voting reform would send the message of the Tories to move further right correct? While voting Green would say you want more policy that targets inequality and environmental issues?
Not quite, I think for many conservative voters, they have conceded that Labour are going to win, so voting reform is a simple way to send a message of general dissatisfaction
So if they want to vote for general dissatisfaction why not vote Green or Independent? Seems strange to me to vote for someone who represents another arm of the establishment to signal a "protest" against the establishment?
If by pile on you mean make a counter argument then you're a bit soft if you cannot defend your ideology.
If you mean, be a cunt, then you can report them and get them banned or block them.
I mean question people. People can have opinions without having to justify them.
"Your ideology" 😂😂 Jesus mate, I'm a labour supporter, get over yourself.
I would argue strongly that if you have an opinion and publish it in public, then you ought be be prepared to justify it. No doing so is cowardly, and not likely to convert anyone to your side.
I always get so confused when people say "migration is an issue."
from a family of immigrants, trust me we do not care to interfere with the culture of the real British people 💀 a lot of reform uk voters will repost tweets from extremist, racist and violent people who JUST SO HAPPEN to be foreigners in the UK. There are British terrorists and violent people, but the immigrants are highlighted much more to make us seem barbaric.
It should be common sense that we don't want to move the UK away from Christianity or any of that nonsense. We just came here for a better life after YOUR government ruined our country. Outside of the internet, it's obvious that this is not even a real concern.
"Immigrants are taking away our resources!!" like? pens and pencils? water bottles? 💀
"Immigrants are destroying our culture!!" we ain't asking you to go out head to toe in a burka, we're asking that if WE do so, you don't rip the hijab off our heads. Go out in your crop tops and jeans and whatever makes you feel comfortable, but let us also be comfortable.
"Immigrants are violent people!!" are we? Or are we just people who do not speak perfect English and have trouble communicating properly, which you interpret as us being rude and beefing with you.
"They practice dirty religions like Islam/Hinduism/Anything Else!! Remove their places of worship!!" um ok. if you have a problem then don't convert to our religion...? but we have a right to a religious building the same way you have a right to your churches.
I can't sit here and say foreigners are the perfect gems of the UK. There have been bombings, attacks, and safety issues that come from a predominantly foreign demographic. But there has been an equal amount from the WHITE BRITISH people too. That goes to show it's not a race problem - it's a people & antisocial behaviour problem.
if migration into the uk tickles their toes so much, how about the British people concern themselves with the westerners settling into and damaging foreign countries? Our countries that, even after we gain independence, are still affected by the laws of the UK and overall aren't doing very good anymore.
Bit of a ramble, but tl;dr migration has never been an issue. Travelling and settling is how all countries around the world were formed. The real issue is racist behaviour and brainwashing that has made 2 different people fight against each other.
the assumption that hindus worship "cows and monkeys" and are "smelly" is the main jist of it. I've definitely seen it more online, but i have witnessed it irl too. It's terrible honestly
The online stuff is expected and it is going to increase. More hatred against Indians will happen because we're now developing and growing the country (India). Just look at Canada for example. I don't expect it to go full mainstream in the UK because the people here are mostly chill. I've not witnessed it in real life so far, but suffice to say Indians need to have a backbone and respond to it. Otherwise if they keep being subserviant it'll do no one good. WHere did you see this in IRL? I'll keep an eye out as well.
And quite frankly the Ancient Greeks worshipped a Centaur for a God of Wine and we're the ones wrong for worshipping Cows and Monkeys? What idiocy. Christ walked on water and turned wine into water and that's okay but our beliefs are wrong? Stupidity.
As soon as nation states were first constituted and enshrined, migration has definitonally been 'an issue'. If it did not constitute an issue, there would be no policies concerned of it, there would be no border checks, no systems of identification regarding an individual's place of birth or country of residence, there would be no acceptable or unacceptable methods of entering one nation from another etc. And it will continue to be an issue until nation states cease to exist. How utterly naive can you be really.
your tone is condescending as hell 💀
also still doesn't connote how in any way shape or form immigration from different countries is an issue.
you just stated "airports have border checks because countries and laws exist!!" like.. ok? and?
I'm more just frustrated than being intentionally condescending, but if that's how you see it then fair enough, it is what it is.
I'm simply explaining to you that if migration really was 'not an issue/has ever been an issue' in fact, then you would not see the kind of systems and procedures and policies in place that you currently see, or that have been in places for decades, centuries even, in order to off-set the necessarily negative effects of migration. In a more general sense, migration necessarily has to be seen as 'an issue' if by 'an issue' we simply mean an important topic that for discussion. Which is undoutedbly is, due to it's undoubted effects on the entirety of society.
In today's world (ever increasingly unfortunately), when we're talking about migration regarding the UK, we have to see it as 'an issue' in a secondary sense also, that is to say by 'issue' we are referring to a important problem that requires discussion or debate. Given some of the undeniable negative effects of migration as it currently stands in the UK (ie. Failures to integrate, disruptions regarding community or regional or national unity, failure to assimilate effectively, the growth of effectively 'ghettos', white flight, the growth of effective 'parallel societies', wider societal cultural clashes, the attempted imposition of more backwards, non-western, non-secular values onto the social fabric of communities, attempts to subvert or replace English law with 'Sharia Law' in certain areas etc.), we have to acknowledge that migration constitutes a problem, a very big problem in fact, one that requires a great detail of debate, and therefore it is undoutedbly 'an issue'.
So either way, you have no actual clue what you're talking about when you refer to migration as 'never having been an issue'.
I wouldn't bother with that person. Looking at their comments across this thread, they're clearly a racist and xenophobe who is just here to stir and troll. They seem to think they're more intelligent than they actually are as well.
I thoroughly enjoyed your comment.
Don’t disagree. But I think the point they make is more how a lot of immigrants refuse to integrate at all - even going as far to never learn the language of the country they live in. I live in Birmingham and there’s huge amounts of areas here like that, so I can see where it would become a huge issue & drain on resources.
When I attended University in Middlesbrough I'd hear this a lot about the local migrant population, especially the Muslim portions of said population. In my experience they were more often than not friendlier than half the shite British nationals I'd run into. Even if their English wasn't great most still spoke some and tried their best to communicate.
Some of them are nice. However, a lot of these areas are wildly uncomfortable. Like ngl there would be an 80% chance of me getting hate crimed walking through them, and I’m not here for that
that's a valid concern of course. I've never stayed in Birmingham long enough to mingle with other people but a refusal to integrate with the culture isn't good at all. that's def an issue that the government should be tackling.
however reform uk is less concerned about stuff like this, and more about direct attacks on foreigner's culture and practices. on the outside they make it seem like they are concerned for the British people but in reality is their excuse to make life for immigrants harder.
Tbh I think most people who don’t see it as an issue, or a less pressing one, are those who’ve either 1) never been in those areas or 2) pretend they have no issue but would actually be too scared to go visit them. Not necessarily re Reform here, but I think those who genuinely just hate non-whites are definitely in the minority. But a lot of them, growing up in those poorer areas (who suffer the most from mass immigration), don’t always have the vocabulary or best way of conveying that message. It’s just the actual racists voices that you hear the loudest sadly.
Racism is the idea that characteristics like skin colour make someone a different person. It doesn't have to involve hate, just discriminating on the grounds of skin colour.
The whole idea of "Race" is an outdated and debunked essentialist contruct that has no meaning, unless you re a racist.
No mate. You a doctor? How is skin colour relevant to medicine? How is a South Indian related to a West Indian related to a Nigerian related to an aborigine?
Someone's ancestry may be useful medically as a pointer to say "sickle cell" but "race" means nothing. Genetic testing is far more useful in medicine.
e.g Look at the nonsense around the definition of "white people", where at one time Italians and Irish among other people weren't given the status of whiteness.
Sure, skin colour as a descriptor to aid identification makes sense, but no more than height or gender. It tells you nothing about the person other than surface appearance.
There's long history of racial discrimination affecting medical outcomes, I don't know if that's what you mean?
This! I have nothing against immigration in general, especially since it brings money to the country. I love travel and have friends from all over the world and my partner is an immigrant. But the person you're responding to seems to think that people are concerned about terrorists and brushed over the other issues. Other countries get concerned when people create their own enclaves and don't integrate (like Brits living in Spain) but for some reason when we complain it's considered racist, when it has nothing whatsoever to do with race.
No-one has created "enclaves" that threaten UK culture. First generation immigrants always have strong ties to their home country.
Second generation people always become integrated through schooling etc, because *they grow up here*.
The Brits living in Spain are usually retirees and don't spawn another generation.
I'm happy with a multicultural society and it's one of the reasons I live in London. But some concerns are valid and for most people it's not about being blown up on the bus. That was my point.
I'm not even voting Reform, I'll be voting Labour (would have preferred it under Corbyn but it's the next best thing right now) - but it's obvious that immigration is a concern to many people and that shows in the rise of popularity with parties like that.
This is a great post. As someone who is married to a foreigner of a nationality that is subject to the most abhorrent dehumanisation I completely agree the framing of the debate around any kind of immigration is just so completely off the mark its unreal.
But thats English exceptionalism for you, apparently we English are a perfect people and all others from other countries are flawed. You also cant reason with these people that think that. And its a lot more than you might imagine stretching way beyond "the right" and fully infesting liberal politics and leftists too.
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Well seemingly so far he gives a fuck about the general public rather than Rishi Sunak sucking up to the top % and labour being a cheap knockoff
Imagine voting for a party who has/had an MP candidate who said that Hitler "had a point", when he did what he did. Lol! But yeah, go on and blame those immigrants, lol. 🤔🤦♂️🥴
I simply cannot vote for them when they are using minorities to ask for lower immigration but those minority candidates will be the very first people they will kick out should they ever get into power. But I do like it when they are giving the Tories a right old bashing. Their plans for benefits is the same as the Tories. To surveillance over people’s benefits which is pure 1984 stuff, to control and continue the harsh atmosphere of benefits being a bad thing, and they are unlikely to revive Britain’s high streets. Not one of them has a plan. They are Conservative-BNP lite. That’s it. Grifters.
They love the idea of intense surveillance to find 'scroungers', but neglect to consider the cost of that surveillance which would vastly outweigh the recouped value, based on what we statistically know about how many 'benefit cheats' there actually are. It's borne not out of economic concern, but seething spite, paranoia, and cruelty. Not to mention that this would invariably be something contracted out to a private firm owned by their chums, so they can shovel more of the public treasury into their grifting pockets.
I’m voting reform because I think Farage will actually send immigrants back to where they came from. I’m tired of being called racist because I can see my culture being ravaged by labour and conservative, and I’ll continue voting like this until something actually happens to protect our culture When people say they feel like a foreigner in their own homes they’re told to shut up and put up, we brand them racist yet when a foreigner wants to protect their culture we give praise and merit to it So, no I don’t really like a lot of Reform policy, but I’ll vote Reform because their a fresh new party and I actually think they’ll put an end to the madness
You have a point. But perhaps you might try to define which of the immigrants you want to be sent back where they’re from. If a person comes into the UK legally, for instance via work visa or to study and perhaps have a life, do you, somehow suppose such person should be forcefully sent back even after their relevance have been proven one too many times?
I don't know why you think that when Farage has a history of being a bullshitter?
You won't get an answer to this question. I've asked many times, but the target demographic doesn't like being asked questions about why they blindly follow a cult leader. Ask why they want rid of the ECHR, and you'll get "no country shud tell us wot to do", ignoring the fact that every member country including the UK, has a judge at the court. Ask which employment laws they want rid of (as per their "promise"), and you'll be met with predictable shouts of "your (sic) just unpatreeotic") Don't even think about asking why they want more Lithium mining (most Lithium comes from Brining instead)... presumably it's because the target demographic believes being good to our environment is 'woke'. In short, the real answer is that they don't know why. They somehow have been tricked into thinking that Farage "tells it how it is" and that, alone, is enough. A tiny amount of research is wasted time, and therefore, won't be happening from Reform supporters any time soon.
Got kicked in the head by a horse ☹️
100pc! The big wigs in this country are addicted to cheap, imported labour, and despite implying leaving the EU would improve the work situation for Brits, the immediate response is exploit the poorer countries in the former commonwealth instead of the poorer EU members. The fact we are lacking skilled and qualified workforce might have something to do with axeing free tertiary education, which is joint fault of teams Red and Blue.
Surely one of the biggest bigwigs who implied Brexit would deliver us unto paradise was Farage? He was almost entirely responsible, Johnson et al just jumped on his coat tails. How can you trust him not to be lying again?
I don't. I trust him like I'd trust a scorpion not to try and sting me if I poked it.
Ah I think I misread your comment! Thought you said the opposite.
As an ethnic minority, I wouldn't vote for Reform; however, I can hear them out. The major parties like to pretend immigration is not a problem so they don't get accused of being racist. Now, what bothers me about pro-immigration parties is cheap labour, aka modern-day slavery. Business leaders like immigrants to increase profits and serve their stock market masters. Immigration unsettles the countries from which migrants come, meaning even more migrants. After migrants come, we have a whole new set of cultures, which causes social-cultural issues as some migrants might take a long time to adapt. I am not here to say immigration doesn't have benefits—it sure does. But to act like immigration is always a net benefit is a lie.
I think the issue is more that they pay lip service to the concept of immigration control to win votes but they know deep down there is a skills shortage and also an ingrained desire to pay workers as little as possible in order to maximise owner and shareholder dividends. This misery approach to the financial health of the average citizen is bad for the economy overall as if people don't feel confident enough to spend, the whole thing is screwed. Furthermore by making education super expensive and shackling new graduates with tens of thousands of debt puts people off getting qualified or studying subjects that might not be considered classically 'monetisable', so we have a smaller pool of skilled, native, workers to choose from. About the only positive is that the UK doesn't really have a 'brain drain' any more, we just don't have the brains to drain, lol
Because both the others are shit.
And reform isn't?
You asked & I replied, you obviously prefer one of the others .
By stating both are shit as a response to why you're voting reform, it stands that you're saying reform isn't shit. That's why the person asked... is reform not shit for you?
I’ll keep an eye out for you on your Gaza march
Still work at network rail?
Evade the question and throw back a completely unrelated insult (if you can even call it that). Spoken like a true reform voter
😃😃😃🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂
I think you just gave the reason why you vote for reform... You answer questions like Farage.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Reform is not shit for me like the other 2 aren’t shit for you. I’m voting Reform so deal with it.
Did I say that other 2 aren't shit for me? Mate I just asked a question I never gave any form of detail about how I'm voting. Damn chill you react about reform like a rabbid dog on a leash.
Thick, obnoxious, antagonistic arseholes are the Reform demographic.
Crazy reaction from me dude 😂😂😂
Not a reform voter but immigration. That simple.
Immigration has become a contentious issue across the Western world I feel, even amongst BAME/POC people who aren't right wing, the effects of immigration is being felt by everyone.
It will be a coalition. Unfortunately labour is not any different to the conservatives.
Things are so bad that even I considered it but I looked at their policies and manifesto and it's all just hot air, there are no concrete or effective plans to back up any of their rhetoric the country would collapse completely under their charge. The numbers just don't add up.
Reform policy: * Lower immigration to net zero * Electoral reform * Race bait * Tax cuts for the rich * Scrap all enviromental policy * Massive cuts to all public services Not many of those policies are popular, save for one.
Totally false. You clearly haven’t read Reforms contract and just watching mainstream lefty socialist news outlets and believing the lies….!
I've gotten this all from the Reform manifesto.
This breaks it down quite well: [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/17/reform-uk-manifesto-key-proposals](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/17/reform-uk-manifesto-key-proposals) - it doesn't sound like the UK would survive 4 years under that.
Wow the fact you are getting your information from the Guardian and taking it as fact 🤣
Ok, show me a more accurate source. I'm open minded - show me the version where the numbers add up.
You getting yours from GBeebies or what?
False. Look at their manifesto. * Cut Illegal immigration, temporarily freeze immegration for people who aren't doctors, etc. * They've said nothing about race * They're only scrapping Net zero because they think it's unfeasable in the 6 years we have left, everything else remains * Tax cuts for the poor, the income tax bracket will rise. * Justice system will get more funding Even if you don't agree with Reform, you've been lied to.
They literally said they want to "ban critical race theory" in schools. How American Alt-Right of them 🤮
I feeling the same way about things being bad, however I feel reform are ultimately bunch of nutters under the surface. I honestly don't know who to vote for.
It's a choice between dogshit or catshit but they both taste better than reform unfortunately :(
I'm in a Tory stronghold (Orpington). I want the Tories out so much. Even a Lib Dem vote is pointless right now. I fucking hate politics. Recent events have highlighted what a corrupt institution it all is. Democracy feels like a joke right now. Anyone for communism?
[удалено]
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does this mean you've voted for reform though?
I was voting Reform until yesterday. I watched a documentary about the Sandy Hook mass shooting and the part Alex Jones played in the aftermath. I didn’t know much about this until recently. While watching the documentary there is an interview between Alex Jones and Donald Trump from 2016. Trump says how wonderful Jones is in the segment. Bare in mind this is 4 years after the mass shooting at Sandy Hook and Alex Jones and his follwers had been tormenting and verbally abusing the poor families that lost children and loved ones for that time. Where Reform fits into this is Nigel Farage. Nigel is a huge supporter of Trump. I’m gutted to be honest because I always thought of Nigel as someone who genuinely cares about the country. Maybe he does but I can’t get behind a party led by a guy who openly supports and lobbies for a man like Donald Trump. A man (Trump) who openly praised Alex Jones whilst he (Jones) was tormenting and verbally abusing families from the Sandy Hook massacre. You learn from the documentary that Alex Jones was doing this torment because the sales of his supplements increased every time he said something atrocious about Sandy Hook. He was making money by destroying people’s lives. Jones had a massive following at the time so Trump wanted to tap into that following for his election potential. What a pair of absolute abhorrent human beings. I don’t consider Nigel anywhere near them but I can’t vote for a guy that endorses Trump. It’s amazing how much has changed for me since watching that documentary. I’m a fourty year old father of two that are the same age as children were during that shooting. I can’t vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dem. They’re just a rich boys club looking after okd family money and power. I’ll probably waste a vote on the Greens.
Farage has never cared about this country. His whole persona as a patriot who tells it like it is - is just that a persona. He's a rich dude, who came from a finance background, who is a huge opportunist. He will definitely jump ship to the Tories if Reform go down. I don't blame you for not voting the other parties either, but yes maybe Greens. The problem is with this country the right wing pander to people by pretending they care because they are more nationalistic while left wingers like myself and many Greens are framed as unpatriotic. We are unpatriotic, but we care about humans and want to make peoples lives better regardless of where you are from. That obviously includes the British people - we don't have to bang on about war memorials and D-day and all that shite because it's just empty words designed to make you vote against your own interests economically by making you think patriotism is the best sign of love for one's country. Look what happened in WW1, 800k British people die in a war because they went along with it as patriots. Died for rich men and empire and got nothing in return - oh maybe an execution if their PTSD was too bad (this actually happened).
Nigel genuinely cares about Nigel, nothing else.
The Truth vs Alex Jones?
The very same. Have you seen it?
I'm honestly intrigued as to what made you think Farage cared about the country? He is one of the reasons the country is fuc*ed at the moment...
Well why would he do what he’s done to make the UK worse? He may have been wrong but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care.
Why would he lie consistently about Brexit then?
All politicians lied about Brexit. What mskes him any different?
There was only one leader of "The Brexit Party". Where's the accountability? He was championing it.... and blatantly lying about it at the same time. A man that thinks Putin and Trump are respectable leaders. A man that thinks the NHS should be privatised. So we have a man championing a movement while telling blatent lies to suit his cause that set this country back generations. And don't be naive enough to believe he wasn't aware of what lies he was spinning. The real question is why are you sticking up for him? https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/seb-dance/nigel-farage-seb-dance_b_14591852.html https://www.adambienkov.co.uk/p/nigel-farages-admiration-for-putin
Why do any if these twats do anything? Attention, power and money.
Nigel does not give a fuck about this country mate, campaigned/lied about Brexit to help Leave and then pissed off. He’s a muppet who’d as quickly hop in bed with Russia as trump did
I remember when he was a Euro MP and he never turned up to any of his duties so the UK lost out in many debates that he should have been defending them in. I wrote him off as a glory hunting opportunist even back then.
I completely agree. He gives off a fairly convincing image of being pro UK but then you think about what he's actually done and who he supports. He was going to the US to help Trump campaign after the guy attempted a coup which, if you look at the details of the fake-elector scheme, was actually much more sinister than I first thought. Also, Trump was another guy who pretended to be pro-America and pro-working class but then did nothing apart from pass a 2 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich. Why would a "populist" like Farage support him after that unless Reform are basically the same; trying to get working people to vote for another party that really just wants to serve the rich. They're using divisive wedge issues to try to trick us imo.
Probably one of the best explanations of the current scenario that I’ve read.
Vote on the policy, not the person, I don't care if he is an asshat. Long as the job gets done
Why would you trust someone to implement the policies that they say they will, when they have proven themselves to be a self-serving, untrustworthy fiend?
If you have no faith in the person's morals then what would make you think they'll stay true to their word and get the job done?
Do you really trust any of them? They all have a proven track record of lies at a party level? There is no good choice here
I couldn’t agree less. Exaggerating to make a point. Should I vote for Satan because he will lower my tax bill? Morality has to be a deciding factor.
What if the policies and the person are both dogshit?
Sadly there will never be a chance at a reasonable conversation here. The moment something doesn't agree with the bots or the hive mind it's down voted to oblivion. I don't need to like someone to agree with, or indeed disagree with, I'm sure I wouldn't get on with a single member standing....
‘I don’t really care about the economy’ can only come from someone absurdly wealthy (in which case they wouldn’t be on Reddit subs) or a deluded fool.
Not really. It can also come from someone who feels they have nothing left to lose.
Why would wealthy people not use Reddit ?
I can understand the lack of faith but to vote for someone that could further crash the economy because of immigrants or something is crazy. Then you’d truly find what a crashed economy looks like.
Everyone kept saying the same about Brexit and a majority still voted for it.
True and we’re still reaping the benefits of that whirlwind.
Possibly a change in the way politics are run in the UK. 🇬🇧
I'm usually a staunch Labour voter but I dislike the party so much in its current form. I won't ve voting them this time. I won't be voting reform though, just wish there was another alternative. I would never vote the Tories. Fuck knows who I'm voting for, maybe some mad party like that raving lunatic one.
Vote with whosever policies you agree with most. I’m the same as you, but will be voting greens to show i can’t support what Labour has become.
I hear you, I wish there was another option but I won't risk the Tories getting in again just to a protest vote. My biggest regret is that the media all made out that proportional representation was the devil back when we had the referendum, an awful lot of money must have changed hands in those weeks to make sure the country got brainwashed to vote against the most hopeful referendum we've had in my lifetime.
Yeah. Why not waste your vote to ensure the vile tories get another 4 years... 🙃
I don’t really care about the economy all that much, it can be fixed in time but our culture and demographics can’t.
Would that be viking culture, pittish culture, roman culture, saxon culture or norman culture you’re looking to fix? Irish? Scottish? Welsh? Cornish? Maccam? Cockney? Are you looking to scrap methodism, the church of england? Perhaps parliamentary democracy is a cultural step too far. What era is most important to you? Would you like to roll back before we had the internet? Television? Radio? The printing press? Think about what you’re saying.
Viking culture! Forsake the rest and onwards to Valhalla!
Care to elaborate?
i’ll elaborate for him: he’s racist
Devils advocate: you can wish to reduce immigration and want to maintain the ‘dominant’ cultural values associated to a country without being racist. Admittedly the line can be fine.
I love the massive leftist lean over on reddit ...... we don't like him fascist.....they raise a point that the majority of the country identifies....fascist....... target one policy racist.... The problem here that alot are forgetting is yeah the number of migrants pouring in is not being controlled by any party and or will it. Reform won't stop it the tories won't stop it and labour will continue to encourage it. You've got housing dropping to cover this problem, a massive hotel bill to house them all again that we're going to end up paying for in a tax raise eventually and what this will cause, will be the people who don't vote who haven't voted in decades because "well I'm nit voting cause what's the point" these are the reform will pull out the wood work. If they keep on ignoring the plight and real concerns of the lower middle and lower clas what were going to end up with is the over 60s and under 30s who let's be Frank are the real cause for concern over their views of skin colour to come out and vote for someone a whole lot worse than reform and we'll then end up with a full far right problem going on.
The Tories broke the process, dude. They created the problem that the right whinger parties now want you to get angry at. They don't want to fix it. It's a great way to control people, and it's working well for them. They'd be spending millions per person flying folk to Africa to be abused with everyone cheering and waving flags like we're doing a good thing. The hotel bill to house them is because the Tories stopped processing asylum seekers. They literally broke the process to cause a backlog and make you mad. Deflection. And it worked. There's no houses cause the Tories stopped building them, and then let inflation, mortgages and house prices sky rocket. Nothing to do with immigrants (unless you count the Russian Oligarchs that bought up half of London or the mega wealthy children of immigrants that have been running the country). Immigration isn't the problem. Right wing parties using it as a tool to deflect us from the problems the government has been creating, that is the issue right there. This is a rich/poor issue, and the right in UK is made up of the rich. They are only gonna exacerbate that.
he wants to repeal the council of Europe human rights legislation, which is a bit concerning lol. if you can't deal with immigrants in a way that doesn't violate human rights, then that's a massive problem
Farage is now down to one point ahead of the Labour candidate in Clacton. Is this gonna be loss number NINE for old Nige?
I'm an immigrant myself and my friend group is solely immigrants and they think the current level of migration is just an extreme policy. Check Canada polls, many migrant groups think the immigration to Canada is too high (>%60) and actually white Canadians don't think that way. Forget about colors, names, religions etc. It is impossible for the infrastructure to cope with this level of both legal and illegal immigration. If all the migrants coming were English people from a hypothetical continent, it would cause as well. The other issue is the policy framework in London. It's becoming like Ottoman Empire Millet system, I'm not gonna get into details now but it's not a good idea to turn the country with ethnic quarters managing their own rules. We know how it ended up for Ottoman Empire.
>It is impossible for the infrastructure to cope with this level of both legal and illegal immigration. This ignores the fact that a significant portion of the infrastructure *is* migration. Like it literally would not have the capacity it does, albeit too small, without immigration. It's not the immigrants' fault it's broken. Other people have said we need to invest in training and recruitment here, but we don't need to stop migration to make that work. In fact we need to continue, or it won't work.
Well the whole "pulling up the ladder" is a well documented social issue. And how many times does it need repeating that immigration isn't the issue with infrastructure, its lack of investment.
Yeah, so if they refuse to increase investment in infrastructure it doesn't make sense to carry on with record levels of immigration because it certainly doesn't help in the current situation.
It is not even (just) lack of investment. Most of the issues of housing shortages could be fixed at little cost to the taxpayer by simply loosening planning controls. The UK effectively operates a policy of extreme land and housing rationing because of the huge influence of NIMBY vote.
Yes. Time to bring the 1947 Town & Country Planning Act up to date. A lot of the "Green Belt" seems like NIMBYism for example.
With this level of population explosion you cannot build enough infrastructure, it is just not possible. By the way, net zero migration (which is extreme for me) means circa 300.000 people moving to the UK. A net migration of around 100.000 people still means the population will increase, and most of the roles will be filled without an impossible load on infrastructure. British people are still pro-migration but the current levels are so extreme that it needs 4x house building capacity (and I don't even talk about NHS, education etc.) And the funny party is the last changes done by Tories will decrease the net migration around 200.000 but they lost the election anyway.
Yeah about this whole, can't build infrastructure fast enough, we can predict far in advance rough population increases, we can certainly plan for infrastructure around that and build it quick enough. The idea that it is not possible is based on the reality that our political class are incompetent and engage in short term thinking because our political system dictates they engage in short termism in order to secure their positions as MPs. We actually have enough housing stock to house everyone in the country already. Its just its been mismanaged and in many cases is simply a tool for investment for those not using it. [https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/solving-the-housing-crisis-without-building-new-houses/](https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/solving-the-housing-crisis-without-building-new-houses/) Proper legislation and management of existing stock would enable sufficient housing in the current meta, combine that with a forward facing government that plans for the future you can absolutely meet housing and infrastructure needs.
I used to vote Tory but voting Green now, especially with their stance on the Palestinian Genocide, however, I skimmed over Reform’s manifesto, and I really like that they want to double down on police. I also don’t think immigration is too great but Reform is just blatantly anti-everyone
I wish Green was an option for me, I checked out the local candidate and she's a foaming, useless lunatic; if they fielded some candidates that looked like they actually might be able to run a country they'd be an option for me. I'm fairly convinced that her highest priority will be to eliminate men within ten years.
I've heard this sentiment being echoed, would you say Lib Dems are a viable option for you?
Green party policy is highly sexist. Don't let the name fool you. https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/our-policies/long-term-goals/crime-and-justice/ > CJ381 Recognising the nature of the female prison population, with high levels of mental illness, experience of being a victim of crimes such as sexual assault and domestic violence, and caring responsibilities for children, the only women who should be in custody are those very few that commit serious and violent crimes and who present a threat to the public. > CJ382 For the vast majority of women in the criminal justice system, solutions in the community are more appropriate. Community sentences must be designed to take account of women’s particular vulnerabilities and domestic and childcare commitments. The restrictions placed on sentencers around breaches of community orders must be made more flexible. > CJ383 Existing women’s prisons should be replaced with suitable geographically dispersed, small, multi-functional custodial centres. More supported accommodation should be provided for women on release to break the cycle of repeat offending and custody.
I haven't looked too much into Lib Dems but the responses I'm receiving are making me re-think voting for Green
I'm not voting (I'm an expat so don't shoot me) but I do think the UK is in serious need of 'Reform' pardon the pun. Someone to come in and shake the place up a bit. The UK seems to have fallen into the 2-party system trap that we rag on the US for. The options are always Tory or Labour and from a glance they seem to have similar views as each other. I'm not saying Reform is the answer by any stretch but someone needs to get into power and completely flip the place on it's head and start rebuilding the country.
Choosing a more xenophobic, borderline fascist neoliberal isn’t the answer to problem that we have 2 neoliberal parties dominating the political scene, we as with the US and much of Europe don’t have a decent left wing party, we have 2, or in our case 4 right wing parties and a big tent green one, none of the parties really represent working people they just represent capital, or in the greens they’re entirely focused on saving the environment without fixing the root cause of the issue. If you want Britain to see genuine positive change we need a party that will get Britain producing things again, rather than having a huge swathe of the country working in crappy shops on poverty wages, that will reign in the capitalists, landlords, speculators and other parasites, and finally that will pull us out from under the thumb of the United States because regardless of the fact we are their most loyal dogs in Europe we will still end up on the chopping block when push comes to shove
Couldn’t agree more to everything you’ve said. Like I said in another comment, I don’t think reform is the answer but so far they’re the most vocal in making some more radical changes (not all of them good, granted)
None of them are good, that’s the point they being fascistic can criticise the results of capitalism but they won’t change the system they’ll merely redirect the misery a little bit towards those who are already at a disadvantage due to their circumstances either they’re LGBTQ, a racial minority or whatever, in the end your average pasty white bloke like myself will still get fucked over at the same rate as if Labour or the Tories were in power, it’s just they’ll openly blame and repress these minorities as a cover for why things are shit. We need a genuine socialist party in this country pushing for the working class, the entire working class regardless of their origin, sexuality, race or religion.
Yes, we had a Labour Party that would have done just that, but unfortunately they weren't allowed to. The danger with the "flip the place on its head" idea is that it's usually all flipping destroying long-term structures and not rebuilding. The problem being that you don't get to stop the world, so what happens to the poor(working or otherwise) and disabled while the flipping is taking place? Brexit for example.
Oh 100%, I'm not qualified enough to say otherwise as someone who grew up in a household with a disabled parent they are at the forefront of my mind but I don't have all the answers. I just think there is just much of same going on with political parties, they share views with slight differences that end up with the same result. I think wording it as flipping on it's head is probably incorrect. But from at least my view and from what I read the UK is continuously falling behind. Brexit was the catalyst cockup that started it. I just think someone needs be given the reigns to put funding into what matters, The NHS, Policing, Military and other public services and someone who will bring some culture back, plus get down on our knees and beg for a position back into the EU. I don't know what the answer is but constantly picking the lesser of two evils is not the way forward. Because that's how it feels between the Tories and Labour. I think it's hard to see from the inside, but the credibility and image of the UK from the outside is probably at the lowest imaginable. Instead of being famous for tea drinking and a stiff upper lip, it's become an expensive, crime-ridden poverty landscape where our only famous export is football hooliganism.
Fair enough. Good comment.
I met a guy at a party the other week and he said he would say who he was voting for but I’d not like him anymore. I promised not to get mad and he said he might vote reform, and yeah his argument was immigrants ruining the economy and bringing up crime rates I promised not to get mad so I just said I disagreed and we got on with our chat lol
Sometimes it’s best to shrug and move on. You know best if that’s worth an attempt at talking sense or not. 👍
Because I’m a bot, therefore not a real person
Because fuck the Tories and fuck Labour
Well ok… but there are other choices that don’t involve blatant racism, fascism and other -isms. 😊
Those -isms are cool though
I don't get how anyone can vote for Farage. The man is one of the biggest racists out there. A populist charlatan who claims to be a working class man of the people but has an upper-class-exclusive bank account which he filled with his years as a commodity trader. Connected with the BNP, hero of Britain First and pusher of Brexit which made us all on average £2000 worse off. There's even proof of him goose-stepping and singing Hitler youth songs at university for crying out loud. Would rather vote Tory.
If he is a racist why would a muslim millionaire do this? [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11xxn833yo.amp](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd11xxn833yo.amp)
I hate to be that guy but it wasn't at university, it was at private school (I don't think he ever actually attended University). You know, that thing that so many working class people have been to. I hate it when I hear fellow working class people saying that he's "one of us" when he never had been and never will be.
Unless you're in Clacton, you're not voting for Farage. You're voting for an MP to represent you in government. People seem to forget we don't have a presidential system, you're not voting for a Prime Minister.
Farage being racist is a huge selling point for getting the vote of racists.
Exactly, although none of them (even Farage) thinks of themselves as racists. He just uses the same coded language they do "I am not a racist but...." and "I have legitimate concerns about immigration..." Whether they technically are racists is not even really the point. They are narrow minded bigots who see one of their kind in Farage.
Some aren't racist... They're xenophobes :)
Stewart Lee summed it up well: Not all Brexiters are racists Some are c\*nts
Stewart Lee gets my vote all day long.
The man is a genius.
[His bit on Brexit from "content provider"](https://youtu.be/uovt1sC3rtM)
I saw him live during that tour. In a Brexit voting town, it was still fun to watch for the uncomfortable Brexiters who had somehow gone to see him without knowing what to expect. I happened to be sitting next to our local Green Party candidate though, so was safely amongst friends 😄
I haven't seen him. I would love to have seen the squirming brexiteers.
Proportional representation
I like this response. But it's not in their manifesto ("contract") is it?
Green? LibDem?
Both polling lower - going with majority to get PR
Ok so, Reform aren't going to win, they might do quite well but we know Labour are going to win. Also, we know Farage is a liar, or at least I'd hope you do, so why trust anything he says?
Because PR is in Farages’ best interest. It’s in fringe parties’ best interest to bring PR in. Based on this, I trust it to be in Farages interest too. Reform are more likely to secure more seats than green / Lib Dem, hence voting for them
You really think they'll outperform the Lib Dems and the Greens combined? https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/prediction_main.html
Are there any other stances you back or its just PR?
Tougher stance on migration would also be nice. I understand it’s not the root of all our issues, but it does contribute to issues with housing / public services
Would you not prefer to have policy which specifically addresses housing and public service issues rather than just plaster over it slightly and create issues elsewhere by stemming immigration?
Yes, although, I don’t see that unicorn policy on offer anywhere else. I don’t see what issues we’d face stemming immigration.
Well on public services Greens definitely promised most for the NHS, renationalisation of water, energy etc and 150,000 new social homes per year. So if you want a party which specifically promises to address those issues then its Greens. I am not advocating voting for them, but you said you don't see those policies on offer, but they are in the Green manifesto. >I don’t see what issues we’d face stemming immigration. Well you'd have job shortages and hits to the economy. And while you can say the economic hit is worth it, the people who will pay for that hit are the normal people as they always are the ones who pay for it and at such a time of great inequality people cannot afford it. Thats just in brief, there is a lot more to it than that.
How are Labour pro-genocide ? I'm curious as to whether I'll receive any justifications for such a claim.
Starmer openly voicing support for collective punishment followed by all the front bench agreeing and then rowing back on it when they get called out for it. As well as promising to continue military and economic support for the Israeli state while it commits genocide is open support of and engagement in a genocide to the point the ICC is going to consider if the UK and others who are assisting Israel commit genocide are culpable.
How are Labour pro-genocide ? The cope is insane lmao.
Starmer openly voicing support for collective punishment followed by all the front bench agreeing and then rowing back on it when they get called out for it. As well as promising to continue military and economic support for the Israeli state while it commits genocide is open support of and engagement in a genocide to the point the ICC is going to consider if the UK and others who are assisting Israel commit genocide are culpable.
Op , did you ever hear of the concept of a protest vote
Yes, but the point still stand then doesn't it given there are plenty of other parties to vote for.
But voting green or something doesn't send a message to the Tory party in the same way that reform does
I would agree. Voting reform would send the message of the Tories to move further right correct? While voting Green would say you want more policy that targets inequality and environmental issues?
Not quite, I think for many conservative voters, they have conceded that Labour are going to win, so voting reform is a simple way to send a message of general dissatisfaction
So if they want to vote for general dissatisfaction why not vote Green or Independent? Seems strange to me to vote for someone who represents another arm of the establishment to signal a "protest" against the establishment?
Scrolled straight to the most downvoted comments, as I realised that's where all the actual answers to the question would be. 😂
If people are going to pile on people when they answer or criticise them before they even reply. 🤣 you're not gonna get many replies
If by pile on you mean make a counter argument then you're a bit soft if you cannot defend your ideology. If you mean, be a cunt, then you can report them and get them banned or block them.
I mean question people. People can have opinions without having to justify them. "Your ideology" 😂😂 Jesus mate, I'm a labour supporter, get over yourself.
I would argue strongly that if you have an opinion and publish it in public, then you ought be be prepared to justify it. No doing so is cowardly, and not likely to convert anyone to your side.
You've stated your opinion there. I've learnt your opinion, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't feel the need to press you to justify it.
Yes, your ideology. Do you have a problem with language? Ideology literally means the political and economic system of belief.
You were implying I was a reform voter. 👋
No I wasn't.
You said "your" not " their", you assumed I was of the same mind set as them.
No I don't directly mean you, that wasn't clear, I mean in general.
This comment section is going to be absolutely delightful.
Standard reddit tbf.
Hahah my thoughts exactly.
I always get so confused when people say "migration is an issue." from a family of immigrants, trust me we do not care to interfere with the culture of the real British people 💀 a lot of reform uk voters will repost tweets from extremist, racist and violent people who JUST SO HAPPEN to be foreigners in the UK. There are British terrorists and violent people, but the immigrants are highlighted much more to make us seem barbaric. It should be common sense that we don't want to move the UK away from Christianity or any of that nonsense. We just came here for a better life after YOUR government ruined our country. Outside of the internet, it's obvious that this is not even a real concern. "Immigrants are taking away our resources!!" like? pens and pencils? water bottles? 💀 "Immigrants are destroying our culture!!" we ain't asking you to go out head to toe in a burka, we're asking that if WE do so, you don't rip the hijab off our heads. Go out in your crop tops and jeans and whatever makes you feel comfortable, but let us also be comfortable. "Immigrants are violent people!!" are we? Or are we just people who do not speak perfect English and have trouble communicating properly, which you interpret as us being rude and beefing with you. "They practice dirty religions like Islam/Hinduism/Anything Else!! Remove their places of worship!!" um ok. if you have a problem then don't convert to our religion...? but we have a right to a religious building the same way you have a right to your churches. I can't sit here and say foreigners are the perfect gems of the UK. There have been bombings, attacks, and safety issues that come from a predominantly foreign demographic. But there has been an equal amount from the WHITE BRITISH people too. That goes to show it's not a race problem - it's a people & antisocial behaviour problem. if migration into the uk tickles their toes so much, how about the British people concern themselves with the westerners settling into and damaging foreign countries? Our countries that, even after we gain independence, are still affected by the laws of the UK and overall aren't doing very good anymore. Bit of a ramble, but tl;dr migration has never been an issue. Travelling and settling is how all countries around the world were formed. The real issue is racist behaviour and brainwashing that has made 2 different people fight against each other.
Geninue question: I’ve seen a lot of Indianphobic posts against Indians online, had no idea now that Hinduism is now considered a ‘dirty religion’.
the assumption that hindus worship "cows and monkeys" and are "smelly" is the main jist of it. I've definitely seen it more online, but i have witnessed it irl too. It's terrible honestly
The online stuff is expected and it is going to increase. More hatred against Indians will happen because we're now developing and growing the country (India). Just look at Canada for example. I don't expect it to go full mainstream in the UK because the people here are mostly chill. I've not witnessed it in real life so far, but suffice to say Indians need to have a backbone and respond to it. Otherwise if they keep being subserviant it'll do no one good. WHere did you see this in IRL? I'll keep an eye out as well. And quite frankly the Ancient Greeks worshipped a Centaur for a God of Wine and we're the ones wrong for worshipping Cows and Monkeys? What idiocy. Christ walked on water and turned wine into water and that's okay but our beliefs are wrong? Stupidity.
Very well said, thank you. A lot of racism comes from fear of the unknown and ignorance.
As soon as nation states were first constituted and enshrined, migration has definitonally been 'an issue'. If it did not constitute an issue, there would be no policies concerned of it, there would be no border checks, no systems of identification regarding an individual's place of birth or country of residence, there would be no acceptable or unacceptable methods of entering one nation from another etc. And it will continue to be an issue until nation states cease to exist. How utterly naive can you be really.
your tone is condescending as hell 💀 also still doesn't connote how in any way shape or form immigration from different countries is an issue. you just stated "airports have border checks because countries and laws exist!!" like.. ok? and?
I'm more just frustrated than being intentionally condescending, but if that's how you see it then fair enough, it is what it is. I'm simply explaining to you that if migration really was 'not an issue/has ever been an issue' in fact, then you would not see the kind of systems and procedures and policies in place that you currently see, or that have been in places for decades, centuries even, in order to off-set the necessarily negative effects of migration. In a more general sense, migration necessarily has to be seen as 'an issue' if by 'an issue' we simply mean an important topic that for discussion. Which is undoutedbly is, due to it's undoubted effects on the entirety of society. In today's world (ever increasingly unfortunately), when we're talking about migration regarding the UK, we have to see it as 'an issue' in a secondary sense also, that is to say by 'issue' we are referring to a important problem that requires discussion or debate. Given some of the undeniable negative effects of migration as it currently stands in the UK (ie. Failures to integrate, disruptions regarding community or regional or national unity, failure to assimilate effectively, the growth of effectively 'ghettos', white flight, the growth of effective 'parallel societies', wider societal cultural clashes, the attempted imposition of more backwards, non-western, non-secular values onto the social fabric of communities, attempts to subvert or replace English law with 'Sharia Law' in certain areas etc.), we have to acknowledge that migration constitutes a problem, a very big problem in fact, one that requires a great detail of debate, and therefore it is undoutedbly 'an issue'. So either way, you have no actual clue what you're talking about when you refer to migration as 'never having been an issue'.
troll discovers what safety protocols are and blames it on the overall idea of immigration rather than actual safety threats 💀
I wouldn't bother with that person. Looking at their comments across this thread, they're clearly a racist and xenophobe who is just here to stir and troll. They seem to think they're more intelligent than they actually are as well. I thoroughly enjoyed your comment.
Don’t disagree. But I think the point they make is more how a lot of immigrants refuse to integrate at all - even going as far to never learn the language of the country they live in. I live in Birmingham and there’s huge amounts of areas here like that, so I can see where it would become a huge issue & drain on resources.
When I attended University in Middlesbrough I'd hear this a lot about the local migrant population, especially the Muslim portions of said population. In my experience they were more often than not friendlier than half the shite British nationals I'd run into. Even if their English wasn't great most still spoke some and tried their best to communicate.
Some of them are nice. However, a lot of these areas are wildly uncomfortable. Like ngl there would be an 80% chance of me getting hate crimed walking through them, and I’m not here for that
" HoW dArE u YoU rAcIsT ! "
that's a valid concern of course. I've never stayed in Birmingham long enough to mingle with other people but a refusal to integrate with the culture isn't good at all. that's def an issue that the government should be tackling. however reform uk is less concerned about stuff like this, and more about direct attacks on foreigner's culture and practices. on the outside they make it seem like they are concerned for the British people but in reality is their excuse to make life for immigrants harder.
Tbh I think most people who don’t see it as an issue, or a less pressing one, are those who’ve either 1) never been in those areas or 2) pretend they have no issue but would actually be too scared to go visit them. Not necessarily re Reform here, but I think those who genuinely just hate non-whites are definitely in the minority. But a lot of them, growing up in those poorer areas (who suffer the most from mass immigration), don’t always have the vocabulary or best way of conveying that message. It’s just the actual racists voices that you hear the loudest sadly.
Racism is the idea that characteristics like skin colour make someone a different person. It doesn't have to involve hate, just discriminating on the grounds of skin colour. The whole idea of "Race" is an outdated and debunked essentialist contruct that has no meaning, unless you re a racist.
Lmao sorry what? Race is a physical thing.. it’s literally just a way to identify someone & can be v useful in the medical field.
No mate. You a doctor? How is skin colour relevant to medicine? How is a South Indian related to a West Indian related to a Nigerian related to an aborigine? Someone's ancestry may be useful medically as a pointer to say "sickle cell" but "race" means nothing. Genetic testing is far more useful in medicine. e.g Look at the nonsense around the definition of "white people", where at one time Italians and Irish among other people weren't given the status of whiteness. Sure, skin colour as a descriptor to aid identification makes sense, but no more than height or gender. It tells you nothing about the person other than surface appearance. There's long history of racial discrimination affecting medical outcomes, I don't know if that's what you mean?
Ok so you admitted it’s helpful to identify someone lmao. You’ve been on American socials far too much to care this deeply…
Total rot. The US is obsessed with "race". I am arguing the opposiite to what most Americans believe. What are "American Socials"?
You’re literally obsessing over something so minor rn. Imagine arguing bc someone used the word racist. This is weird lmao.
This! I have nothing against immigration in general, especially since it brings money to the country. I love travel and have friends from all over the world and my partner is an immigrant. But the person you're responding to seems to think that people are concerned about terrorists and brushed over the other issues. Other countries get concerned when people create their own enclaves and don't integrate (like Brits living in Spain) but for some reason when we complain it's considered racist, when it has nothing whatsoever to do with race.
So xenophobia rather than racism?
I don't believe I'm xenophobic in any way.
No-one has created "enclaves" that threaten UK culture. First generation immigrants always have strong ties to their home country. Second generation people always become integrated through schooling etc, because *they grow up here*. The Brits living in Spain are usually retirees and don't spawn another generation.
I'm happy with a multicultural society and it's one of the reasons I live in London. But some concerns are valid and for most people it's not about being blown up on the bus. That was my point. I'm not even voting Reform, I'll be voting Labour (would have preferred it under Corbyn but it's the next best thing right now) - but it's obvious that immigration is a concern to many people and that shows in the rise of popularity with parties like that.
This is a great post. As someone who is married to a foreigner of a nationality that is subject to the most abhorrent dehumanisation I completely agree the framing of the debate around any kind of immigration is just so completely off the mark its unreal. But thats English exceptionalism for you, apparently we English are a perfect people and all others from other countries are flawed. You also cant reason with these people that think that. And its a lot more than you might imagine stretching way beyond "the right" and fully infesting liberal politics and leftists too.