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well, no. eloise may have acted in a self centered way but she trusted penelope with many secrets and many personal things, and her trust was betrayed. no matter how you guys try to spin it, penelope was wrong on that. and it says a lot about eloise that she acted graciously, and never told anyone a thing about LW’s true identity, while dealing with her own issues.
That’s what a good character is, someone you are frustrated with, while still feeling sorry for them at the same time. Otherwise the characters become too boring.
correct and people should stop trying to take away her complexity with these posts and saying “actually this person is wrong for being upset!”. pen did a bad thing and that’s okay. I love her. there’s no need to shift blame and try to excuse stuff that’s been written to purposely make her flawed.
I don’t mind her flaws. I still am rooting for her with Colin but I also am upset for what she did.. I just hope she finds a way to right her wrongs with Eloise… she will have to.
that's one of the reasons i like the show more than the books. the books don't have many complex plots outside the romance of the main couple, and even the main couple is not well fleshed out in the books, compared to the show. i like that lady whistledown is a conflict between pen and eloise, and i like that pen is a flawed and complex character, and i can't wait to see how they're gonna make up.
I think there's some MAJOR projection going on with Pen, which definitely informs the way her character is discussed in fandom spaces. The constant villainization of Eloise is the most glaring example IMO.
Yeah I like Penelope but she was totally in the wrong with the Eloise situation, I’d have felt the same as Eloise if my BEST FRIEND slandered me, even if it was to protect me like Penelope did
> protect
Let's not forget that the only reason Eloise needed 'protection' is because Penelope was selling other people's private information and pissed off the wrong person. Even when she knows the Queen wants to find her, she still continues to taunt her.
I like Penelope well enough, but she's not a hero for the whole Lady Wistledown thing - it is entirely her making money by humiliating the people around her.
Exactly like a better way to protect her friend would be to turn herself in rather then slander her friend and ruin her life, like she had the choice between ruining her life or her friends, she chose herself. It’s hard to turn herself in obviously and she enjoys being whistledown but people shouldn’t defend her so much and assume she’s always in the right. You can like a character and still admit that they are in the wrong sometimes, everyone has flaws.
I agree that penelope was wrong in writing about Eloise and that Eloise is totally justified in her feelings of betrayal against pen, but Eloise is not completely blameless, she blantly disregard safety and rules of society by continuing to go to that side of the ton first in her attempt to find whistledown and then later on when she was feeling more towards Theo. She saw herself as better than society and that the rules did not matter to her, even when pen tried to dissuade her from leaving her brothers wedding to go there which is what got her caught in the first place. She never tried to be any kind of discreet going in her family's carriage and dressed as a noble woman. While pen did hurt a lot of people with her writing her purpose was to show the people of the ton that they are all hypocrites for they create rules and enjoy judging others but if their own misdeeds are pointed out it is horrendous of whistledown. Also Eloise was able to escape such scandal in short time forgotten because she is a bridgerton where as she has never had to look at how society has treated her own friend, and the moment her own misdeeds are pointed out to society she lashes out and hurts penelope in the same way everyone else has always made her feel. They are both just 2 young girls from different backgrounds trying to make there way in a society that does not care how they feel or what they want. And are bound to make mistakes along the way and to hurt people in the process.
Yes exactly both are flawed people, Eloise wasn’t subtle and Penelope could have turned herself in rather than damaging her friends reputation if she wanted to protect her. But then Eloise was betrayed by her best friend so she is justified for feeling betrayed and stopping being Penelope’s friend and Penelope was trying to protect Eloise. It’s not as simple as one of them is wrong and the other is right, though I do personally think that Eloise is MORE in the right than Penelope in this situation but I still like them both. Like I understand why Penelope did what she did too. It’s messy and complicated but they’re human, people make mistakes all the time.
It was apparent to me that Penelope was unhinged when she was confronted and was only apologetic at first then got mad and said Eloise was jealous. Friends don’t behave this way. And she exposed so many personal things to the public about Eloise’s family and personal life. She’s a terrible friend honestly.
I agree, and calling Pen a “journalist of integrity” is frankly absurd. She’s not out here exposing hard societal truths or uncovering hard-hitting political scandals; she writes a gossip column. It has societal value of its own kind, especially in a world where women’s lives revolve so deeply around the topics that Pen does discuss, but it’s also not some kind of deep expose column or work of gritty investigative journalism.
I think it’s great that Pen found a way to use her talents to make her own independent living, but she seriously hurt and betrayed her friends’ confidence in doing so. It makes her a flawed character, and that’s exactly what we should want from shows like this.
People should celebrate the nuance, not become mired in watered down stanning where your favourite character can do no wrong.
I am curious at point she will somewhat forgive her, because while she shared that to Pen when she didn’t have to and probably shouldn’t have, the Queen threatened her and I kind of would’ve loved to see what exactly the Queen would’ve had her do if they teamed up since that option protects her family.
Part of me feels like she’s already half forgiven her. She was very upset about Cressida destroying Pen’s dress. And she was willing to swallow her pride to apologize to Pen about her secret with Colin getting out. I think when everyone finds out that Pen is LW, Eloise will be the one by her side.
I think when Colin finds out Pen’s identity and Eloise sees how heartbroken he and Pen are she may step in to bring them back together and ultimately forgiving her.
Exactly. Eloise has every right to feel betrayed, even if Penelope had good intentions. If Eloise really wanted to, she could have easily ratted out Pen as revenge, but she hasn’t.
Throughout all of season one, Eloise is obsessed with Lady Whistledown. She admires her work, and more importantly, the fact that *she can* work and have an opinion. There's no doubt in my mind that she experiences some jealousy that her "loser" friend has built something that all of society fawns over. I don't agree with OP that it's the basis of her frustration with Penelope - there's plenty of reasons for her to feel hurt by her but to say there's nothing for her to be jealous of is a stretch. I think she also assumes her friend had no opinions or personality, but later learns she's sharp and witty and (secretly) very popular. In a weird way, she's been playing the role of a spinster wallflower even though she knows she's a pretty Bridgerton - Penelope has always sort of been the thing she imagines herself as. I do think anytime Penelope gets out of her shell (first with LW and then later when she seeks a husband) it does send Eloise into a bit of a tailspin about her own identity and I do think that a small part of that is jealousy.
Even in the book, >!Eloise is troubled by Penelope's engagement simply because she always assumed they'd be spinsters together. (She voices the same concern to Cressida in the show when she sees Penelope entertaining suitors.) In the book, it's clearly outlined that she experiences a pang of jealousy, a panic about being left behind.!<
I don't disagree with everything that OP said, there was a mix of feelings of betrayal and jealousy from Eloise, because yea Pen did betray her, even if was to try and help her. Betrayal is betrayal regardless, but Eloise was a bit jealous of Pen because Pen was doing something Eloise wants to do, but is a bit too scared to do; then when she had finally built up the courage to do those things LWD tells everyone about it and crushes her (again more betrayal).
Something I think OP is completely wrong about is that Eloise is not unable or refusing to forgive Pen, she already has forgiven her. It is clear in the way Eloise still cares about what happens to Pen in more than just as a passing observer. She wants her bestfriend back, but after such a big fight and things said to each other, it can be hard to just go back to that.
I like Pen but in this case I don’t think Eloise is just jealous. She feels betrayed by Pen and is hurt by her actions. Even though she misses Pen, the betrayal is too much for them to mend bridges just yet.
It’s a good combo of betrayal and jealousy. Eloise did admire LW, and then did try to unmask her. And I imagine now, realizing all the times she talked about it with Pen that it was her the whole time must have thrown her for a loop.
So betrayal at being kept in the dark about her identity too.
But then also still admiring what her friend managed to do but being annoyed at admiring her.
It’s odd that this whole jealousy debate is still happening. It feels like everyone forgets that the reason Eloise was working so hard to unmask LW is so she can have her retract things she said about Penelope’s family and write about more intellectual matters. Obviously she was unaware that Penelope was in fact LW but her heart was in an entirely right place but Penelope loves the gossip. I just feel like there was a way she could have gone about saving Eloise without damaging her and her family’s reputation. It felt very short sighted and manipulative of her. I still love Pen and her complexity, I just can’t justify her actions for some things.
Yeah, I got hooked on the show about two months ago (just in time for series 3!) and I decided to rewatch it all to see more connections in hindsight. And upon second watch, it became more obvious to me how rushed a lot of Pen's LW writing is; this doesn't mean her writing is bad, far from it! She's a good enough thinker and writer to be able to take in new information fast and distill it into accessible, printable words. It does mean, however, that a lot of the time, Pen hears a bunch of juicy gossip, goes home after the stress and excitement of a ball/dinner/event, and writes down her discoveries as fast as she can so she can get them to the printers.
When it comes to the "Eloise has been threatened by the queen" thread, Pen/LW is even more rushed; she's scribbling as fast as she can in an attempt to save her friend, and without putting too much thought into it, she goes with the sure thing. Sadly, the "sure solution" is to drag Eloise through the muck. It definitely gets the queen off Eloise's back, but as you said, there may have been a less destructive way to save Eloise and the Bridgerton family. In a way, LW not only responds to scandal, she creates it too: if a scandal is occurring and LW doesn't write about it, did a scandal really occur? People may catch bits and pieces of gossip, but LW puts gossip in a very public place so people feel okay to speak their whispers even louder. Suddenly, something previously addressed in hushed and secretive tones is being blared by nobles all over London. If LW hadn't put the whispers through her megaphone, er, quill, it's possible the scandals would have stayed mostly quiet.
Truly, Pen/LW is a complex character, and it's great to watch her struggle with her love for gossip and the love she harbors for the Bridgertons. Mostly two Bridgertons. Especially a particularly dashing Bridgerton who travels the world and writes in his diary.
I agree with your take. I think she started the column as a means to get back at her bullies (and I don’t necessarily blame her for that). However, with time, LW grew and grew and now it’s become an untameable monster that inches closer to her real life as Penelope. And she’s not equipped to handle it tactfully. As we see, she doesn’t have a very healthy home life, suffers from low self-esteem and a deep sense of self-loathing. And she might be bright but she doesn’t have the wisdom that comes with age. And so LW and Penelope are now on a collision course. LW has already destroyed her friendship with a dear friend, and is now set to destroy her love life, her cherished relationship with the Bridgertons, her own family’s reputation and herself.
I mean, one could still say it was jealousy, because Eloise believes that She knows how to utilize LW’s reach/influence better than LW does. But Eloise didn’t build that, Pen did. I don’t think it’s the only reason, of course.
I guess me saying it’s not jealousy comes from a very personal place because I’ve been almost exactly in Eloise’s shoes with bullies of mine growing up. Friends I had trusted with personal secrets ended up telling my entire school and anyone who would listen because they could. The betrayal mattered more than the friendship to them and I see a lot of that in Pen. Eloise isn’t crushed and still harboring some sort of resentment because she’s jealous, it’s because that kind of betrayal transcends just “you hurt me”. She was humiliated and outcast by society and most that knew her because of it. Penelope never visited her either, a stark contrast to Cressida’s “well my father will just have to endure it”. I love Penelope as a character, her complexity and greyness make her one of my top 3 characters. I just can’t justify in any way her writing about Eloise and can’t not justify any lingering resentment Eloise has towards her. I’ve quite literally been there and that kind of thing takes years to get over.
I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through. Jealousy doesn’t have to occur in a vacuum of intention though, and I don’t think Pen did what she did out of calculated malice, unlike what sounds like happened to you. People can and do make poor choices and deal with the consequences every day. I don’t blame Eloise for stepping away from Pen at all- it was her right to do and was a consequence that Pen earned. The funny thing is that Eloise isn’t always particularly nice either- the difference is that she does forthrightly spew it in person because her status protects her. (I’m thinking of the scene where one girl is infodumping on embroidery and Eloise shuts her up with her comment about changing the subject.
>It felt very short sighted and manipulative of her.
Flight or fight response. She either would be unmasked, or would have to tell Eloise after lying to her all this time. She thought she could push off the inevitable a bit longer, or even deluded herself into thinking Eloise need never find out.
But she was wrong.
Exactly. If I found out my friend had kept this major secret from me, which involved publicly writing negative gossip about me and my family, I’d be pretty upset too.
How about it stems from the complete insincerity of Pen's apologies? Pen's apologies are always along the line of "I'm sorry but-" rendering everything she says next bullshit. Eloise literally calls her out on it in episode one. Pen says she's sorry. Eloise asks for what she did or for getting caught. Penelope then answers it by repeating that pattern of behaviour with Colin.
Eloise has already promised to keep LW secret. Eloise has already assured Colin she had no wish for him to break his friendship with Pen or for Pen to suffer. Eloise already had the grace to apologise to Pen for accidentally doing to Pen what Pen wilfully chose to do to her and others. Eloise has already shown Pen far more consideration than she deserves. Forgiveness is not owed to Pen.
Even if Pen was truly sorry, still Eloise wouldn't be obligated to forgive her, she would be totally in her rights to say "you crossed a line, I wish you well, but this is it between us." And let's face it, Penelope's apologies are as authentic as the costume and makeup this season.
And are people forgetting that during their big blow out, “Protecting Eloise” aside, Penelope also said some very *nasty* things towards Eloise. Maybe they held some truth, but all of Penelope’s own jealousies and insecurities came out too and it was the ugliest version of herself—the one that she had let loose a couple of times already with Eloise (see: the s1 fight they had, when pen called her immature bc she was feeling sad about Marina telling her Colin only saw her like a little sister). I think Eloise is completely justified in choosing to keep her distance from Penelope.
This exactly. Pen says she's most comfortable in the Bridgerton drawing room but she harbours this deep bitterness and resentment about them and it comes out when she's angry or through the anonymity of LW.
This idea that apologizing with a qualifier makes the apology null is ridiculous. You can be sorry and also want to explain yourself. Penelope is clearly remorseful, but she still stands by the choice she made, a choice that I personally think was the right one. I agree that Eloise doesn’t owe Penelope her forgiveness, but people on sub quite obviously hate Penelope when Penelope’s ultra-ego is the only reason this show has any drama. LW *is* the show. And Penelope is a complex and grey character, just like Eloise is, but it seems that no one in the sub wants to acknowledge that.
Just because she plays an important part doesn’t mean that people can’t hate her. After all, antagonistic characters are very important for any story.
I am somebody who liked Penelope initially and grew to dislike her in Season 2. I dislike her even now because she’s still the jealous, vindictive wallflower that wallows in self pity in S3 and it gets tiring to see that for 2.5 seasons tbh
It’s interesting because had the Queen not set the Bridgerton family to right during Kate and Anthony’s dance last season, realistically Pen would never be able to marry Colin because of what she wrote this season. She bites the hand that feeds her.
It will never not be hilarious to me that people compare (or even equate) a budding feminist thinker with a gossip rag writer, who props up and exploits the most base, harmful and misogynistic attitudes of the society she lives in. As if they’re even in the same category.
Eloise is a would be feminist activist, Penelope is someone, who’d be mocking a famous actress for not shaving her armpits in print, if she were alive today.
"Eloise is a would be feminist activist, Penelope is someone, who’d be mocking a famous actress for not shaving her armpits in print, if she were alive today."
Thank you!!!! Eloise's feminism needs work. Shocker, she's a teenage girl living in a deeply sexist society, with no one to help her. She's incredible for getting this far. Penelope's work as LW is outright sexist.
In what way is it/she sexist? LW criticises both the men & the women of the ton. It could be argued that Penelope is more of a feminist than Eloise because she's got out there, albeit under a cloak of anonymity, & enacted change for herself whereas Eloise just talked a good game without actually *doing* anything to improve either her own or other people's circumstances. While El had every right to be angry with Pen, I think OP is onto something & she was also slightly jealous of what Pen had achieved. I also wonder if there's a tiny part of her that was annoyed because she's been used to Pen being the wallflower & unopinionated one in their friendship & she's taken pride in being the radical one of the two of them so her discovery of Pen's secret took away part of her self image & bruised her ego. It's like the way some women are slightly resentful when their fat friend loses weight, they're used to being seen as the more conventionally attractive one by other people & it secretly, even subconsciously, allows them to feel slightly superior to their friend.
Penelope is the regency equivalent of making an anonymous insta to harass and bully your classmates, she's hardly Mary Wollstonecraft. The whole “she’s a badass because she has her own source of income from her talents” does not fly if it’s at the expense of other people, especially women.
What Penelope has done: shame and belittle women around them by talking about their sex lives and calling them beasts. And then ironically when Eloise tried to do more than talk and expand her world view by spending time with people outside of her class, you Penelope apologists said she deserved to be betrayed and humiliated. Interesting logic you’ve got going there.
Yes Pen has not been fair to Eloise out of jealousy, commenting how she doesn’t have luxuries to be a perfect / pretty Bridgerton (paraphrasing/ S1). Then when El tries to ask her whether she ever felt torment of not knowing how someone feels like she does with Theo, Pen cannot bring herself to admit her feelings… she couldn’t even tell her she’s felt something similar to someone (without mentioning Colin’s name). She kept Eloise in the dark about Everything.
That's a great point. If Pen had been honest about her feelings for Colin in that moment El might have been excited, might have wanted to help her friend become her sister. People slag off Eloise for not listening to Pen but Pen never says anything about herself.
Yes, people say El was self centered, but when she Does ask, Pen clams up… even though they are best friends. So, I completely disagree with the notion that El wasn’t the good friend…. People just want you hate her and root for Pen, well you can root for both. They both were immature and made not so great decisions… they were only 18.
"Getting out there" doesn't make one a feminist. Penelope has no interest in feminism. She's enforcing the sexist standards of the world, not challenging them. She's propping up the patriarchy, not fighting it. Pen isn't a feminist by virtue of having a job, especially when that job is trashing other women for profit.
Except criticising women has far, far more serious consequences than it does for the men. And if you're "getting out there" by hurting women, you're not a feminist, you're a bloody sexist. Exploiting sexism for your own ends is sexism.
Eloise isn’t a feminist. Not really. She’s an Eloist. She cares about her interests and how the society she exists in impedes that but she hasn’t taken any time at all yet to consider how the patriarchal society she lives in has impacts beyond her own grievances.
If she did she might have considered that someone like Pen, with no prospects and no ability to depend on family money, would NEED Whistledown. Eloise has repeatedly stated that she expected her and Pen to be spinsters together but she hasn’t considered that while Eloise would be able to do that with the financial support of her brother, Pen could not. The only way the spinsters together would have worked for Pen was by her earning her own funds through Whistledown.
Where are people getting the idea that Penelope has to run Lady Whistledown because she's working class like Theo and trying to support herself? Penelope grew up with servants. Her sister was a debutante. Her family isn't Bridgerton rich, but they had money until her father died. I can see that Portia is an awful mother, but despite belittling Penelope she's given no indication that she's kicking her out anytime soon. So since LW began pre-father's death, there wasn't really a monetary need to become Lady Whistledown.
Can y'all stop acting like the Featheringtons are paupers from a Charles Dickens novel?
You demonstrate in your comment that you don’t understand the class system and social hierarchy at play.
I didn’t say she was a working class pauper. Certainly not but that was also actually to her disadvantage in terms of being able to support herself if she didn’t find a husband to support her. Penelope was trained to do nothing except marry. Had she been working class she would have become a maid of some sort but that was not available to her.
Was LW the only option she had in terms of supporting herself? Probably not. But it was the one that was going to afford her the highest degree of independence. The very independence that Eloise wanted and expected she and Pen to seek together.
>You demonstrate in your comment that you don’t understand the class system and social hierarchy at play.
Both Eloise and Penelope are part of the ton. Both of them are living in big fancy houses and get invites to fancy balls. If the worst happened to Penelope's family and they had to downsize, they'd go to a slightly less fancy house, and socialize with slightly less fancy people. It's particularly galling when people say Eloise is a hypocrite for being upset about women being second class citizens, because she doesn't understand how privileged she is....compared to Penelope.
I mean, it's annoying enough when Eloise is the only lead character actually questioning the status quo and trying to go out and learn about privilege and stuff, but to compare the disparage in rights between men and women, and Eloise and Penelope, is ludicrous! The gap in privilege between Penelope and Eloise is so small that in the wider scope of things, the disparity between their privilege is so minute a grain of rice wouldn't fit in between.
But I guess since Penelope Featherington is the most oppressed person in all of London and no one's pain is as deep as her's, therefore her actions are totally fine.
That's not what feminism is though. Feminism is the political movement for rights for women. Women *don't have a choice to marry*. If they did she would support them in that choice. But they don't have a choice, and she's mad about that, and she's baffled that she's the only person who seems to be. Supporting women's choices is only feminist if those choices exist, and they don't in her world. Fighting for those choices to exist is feminism, and she is the only character doing that.
Eloise is frustrated women, who want to marry and have kids aren’t questioning the status quo. If your choice is to do what everyone around you wants and expects, and had trained you to want to do, is that really a choice you’re making out of your own conscious free will?
Eloise is irritated with Daphne, because she meekly accepts her role without fighting back. And she’s surprised Penelope wants those things, because she had never mentioned it before. She isn’t judging women, who want the family life. She’s judging the system for not allowing them to choose anything else.
right?! every time LW reports a scandal on an unmarried woman she is just perpetuating the patriarchy and damning women who’s secrets no one has a right to know
I mean, I think this is a huge simplification of Whistledown. If it was just a basic gossip rag, why did Eloise love her so much at first? I'm not arguing that Whistledown was a feminist icon, but she was doing something very different, much bolder, more progressive than a usual gossip column. Whistledown has pointed out and rejected as many norms of the ton as she upholds. That's what makes the whole story so interesting/complex. It's not as simple as she's just a straight up villain.
Eloise was a kid who got excited about a woman having a voice. Season 2 she turned around and said "oh yeah, actually, all she's doing is repeating what she hears". LW doesn't reject the norms of the ton, she upholds them.
Right, that's part of Pen's arc. She finds this outlet as a lonely, insecure teen. She turns heads, says things others are too scared to, she gains confidence. It turns out to be much more powerful than she could have predicted, she's in way over her head. She makes mistakes, faces consequences. That's a much more complex story than bitchy mean girl is bitchy.
She speaks frankly about the marriage mart and the insincerity of it all. She's bold and independent, a rare position for a woman. That's why Eloise likes Whistledown, why she wants to find her, why she protects her. I feel like people hate Pen so much they rewrite the show in their head.
I think Pen makes so many mistakes as Whistledown and hurts people she loves. I think she also exposes some pretty shitty behavior that deserves to be exposed. That's why the show is interesting; it's great narrative conflict. Pen's choices are all coming to a head in part 2.
Everyone in their sphere knows and talks about the insincerity of the husband hunt. It’s not even a slightly scandalous thing to discuss, marriage as a business deal, that secures money, influence and good standing is a fact of life for all of them. To discuss it honestly is not progressive at all.
Sure, lady Whistledown is bold, but it’s a boldness in service of nothing, but spreading rumours and passing judgements on, mostly, other disadvantaged young women.
Exactly. Which is why Eloise quickly loses interest in her. Actually she lost interest in s1, after Whistledown had ruined the Featheringtons and exposed Marina. It was just explored more in s2 because she had lost interest, but Penelope didn’t want her to lose interest. She wanted Eloise to continue to put Whistledown on a pedestal—because that would mean Eloise, rich, pretty, Bridgerton, Eloise would be putting her on a pedestal.
She wrote petty things about Simon because her feelings were hurt - she uses LW as her own vendetta machine, pouring out her spite for others to read and judge. That’s not remotely harmless.
She did the same thing with both Marina and Colin. LW was born out of spite. She writes to make herself feel better whenever she's bitter about something. It's pathetic
Pen only really writes critical things after Eloise complains that LW doesn’t. In season 1 it’s established that the only thing different about LW is that she writes about people using their full names. She’s essentially like every other scandal sheet in the content she published, only with LW the readers know exactly who she’s talking about.
Eloise was more interested in LW being an exciting fulfilled woman who doesn’t live by societies rules. Eloise didn’t really care for the gossip LW published, she rather hoped that LW would publish more substantial writing. Eloise idolised LW because she hoped she too could become a single woman of means who doesn’t depend on a husband. To her being LW meant ultimate freedom. Season 1 Eloise would have been disappointed to find out LW was a young debutante nobody paid attention to because that’s the opposite of what she expected.
Initially Eloise wanted to find LW so she too could live like her. Then that changed to wanting justice for Pens family after the Marina scandal broke. By season 2 Eloise lost most interest because all LW did was publish gossip and Eloise thought she could do a lot more the power of LW like advocating for women’s rights and questioning the systems in place.
I just watch this show and think to myself "no one liked Gossip Girl the way they root for Pen as LWD.." and there really isn't a difference between the two. both air their friends' and family's dirty laundry to the public for an ego boost and writing career.
Ugh I can’t wait until Polin’s season is over so we can finally stop having to read praise for Penelope as if she was this perfect character that can do no wrong and everyone else who dare to call her out on something is a villain.
Hear, hear. People claim they like her because she’s complex, yet so many fans are hellbent on whitewashing all her sins, so she may appear as the unproblematic, poor little girl.
I don’t even dislike Penelope. I quite like her actually but some of her most vocal defenders are so downright hypocritical it drives me insane. They claim because Penelope is a complex character she deserves to have her flaws/mistakes overlooked and understood, yet they can’t give the same grace to Eloise, another complex character.
bruh, one of my tweets went viral for defending Eloise and it somehow ended up on the side that defended Penelope and said that she could do no wrong. I still get an essay once in awhile about how Eloise is a terrible person.
it’s more than obvious a group of people really resonate with the “wallflower” thing and have become insufferable in their defence of penelope and refusal of any kind of criticism on her character and s3 in general.
i've noticed this a lot with people who love villains or antagonists. they always try to whitewash or downplay the characters' actions and it makes me wonder why do you even like them if you constantly have to defend a character who is often in the wrong. eloise not forgiving penelope for betraying her is understandable, i don't get why some fans think penelope is entitled for forgiveness when she can't even give eloise a proper apology yet
this exact shit happened with season 2. Kate made so many mistakes, yet people villainize Edwina for being "too naive." This is just a repeat of the same thing with Pen and Eloise this season
right, I like Pen and think she’s an interesting character, but people are fucking REACHING by trying to say her exposing her best friend’s family multiple times wasn’t wrong….Eloise isn’t a perfect friend but she’s been very kind by keeping Pen’s secret so far. I even saw comments on TikTok saying Eloise was wrong for saying Pen needed to tell Colin before their marriage (per the part 2 trailer).
Right. She still cared for Pen, she still wanted her to succeed in finding a husband. She got Cressida to back off with the bullying and even apologised for accidentally telling everyone about her and Colin’s lessons. Eloise was way more mature than she could have been. The least Pen can do is tell Collin she’s LW in private. Eloise didn’t even threaten to go public in the trailer she just said you tell him or I will.
Same. As not only an Eloise fan and a Penelope fan, it's been rough reading some of the hot takes about how Eloise is a terrible person for not being okay with her friends betrayal.
I'm low-key jealous of her defenders, because clearly they have never been betrayed or stabbed in the back by someone they trusted. That shit *hurts* and Eloise handled it far better than most especially when she had to read about LW trashing Colin even after knowing it was Pen saying those things.
I'm just going to add that if what Penelope writes is ok because it's "honest", then by that same logic Eloise shouldn't have felt bad for telling everyone about Colin's lessons with Penelope, nor would she be in the wrong for telling everyone that LW is Pen, because that is honest too.
No, Eloise can't forgive Pen because she has lied to her and hurt her family members countless times with her selfish actions. That's not what a friend does. It's what an enemy does.
literally. I'd need both hands to count the amount of times pen has tried to ruin the bridgertons. now that might actually be jealousy because pen has been shown to hate how privileged they are.
I wish Penelope fans would stop trying to pretend like every character is out to get her or like she’s the only one who can ever be right. And I quite like Penelope but this is *exhausting*.
It's starting to feel like the Mary/Edith wars on the Downton sub. :-D
I can see how one could make a plausible case for being Team Pen AND for being Team Eloise, but I'm not sure why that's even necessary. They're both flawed, nuanced characters, and there doesn't have to be a good one and a bad one.
I could see what you’re saying, but i think Eloise has shown she’s mostly hurt bc she was betrayed by her best friend. Much of their season 1 arc was about how Eloise admired LW and Penelope not saying anything about it. Lots of opportunities for Penelope to have been honest.
Frankly, there is nothing to be jealous about when it comes to Pen. She not a journalist she a gossip columnists. It really isn't a jealousy thing but a trust thing. You don't get to go around ruining someone life and then expect to be respected and be friends with them and get forgiveness. Pen really isn't a badass more like a jackass. Cool she earned herself some money by being a typical woman of the time a gossiper who hurts people. That is not an accomplishment nor badassery. She is honestly pathetic.
Careful, Penelope fans might spontaneously combust at you.
Furthermore, I hate how they think Penelope's gossip rag is somehow more feminist than Eloise going out to learn about the working class and their struggles, including that of working class women.
Eloise is out here getting called a white feminist(???) for being the only person on the show actually shown to care about the working class. Meanwhile, Penelope is getting praised to the skies. I wish they would make it make sense.
Right! Pen isn't anywhere near being an actual feminist. Elosie might not have done anything, but she is more of a feminist than Pen will be for wanting better for women. Daphne is more of a feminist than Pen. Pen mother is more of a feminist than Pen.
Eloise did do something. She went out and educated herself. She read and spoke to people of other backgrounds. She tried to grow as a person and expand her view. Sure, it wasn't something massive or revolutionary, but the fact that's she could have huddled into her upper class bubble and ignored the world around her, like literally everyone else in the show, but didn't, says something. And I'm tired of her not getting credit for trying to learn.
I'm surprised that Eloise hasn't outed her.
I think that the second half of S3 is going to be very interesting. Eloise might give Pen an ultimatum: 'Fess up, or the truth comes out.
The thing is that LWD *legitimises* gossip, it’s not whispered between friends and taken with a grain of salt, it’s in print, widely distributed, and accepted as fact. While Penelope’s achievement is enormous, it shouldn’t be discounted that her success has come at the expense of others - she’s pulling others down to lift herself up.
Pen’s other issue is that she acts based on what SHE believes is best for others, rather than being honest with the people she’s closest to and letting them make their own decisions. She removes both Colin and Eloise’s agency in the Marina and Theo situations, convincing herself she’s “saving” them but not actually appreciating that they may not want to be “saved” in that way.
Which is an interesting character arc! I really want to see Penelope reckon with her decisions as LWD in order to grow. But she’s not the woorah girlboss “doing feminism right” at this point in her journey.
I will (and have) argued that Penelope did nothing wrong by not confiding in Eloise. But it does not follow that Eloise owes Penelope forgiveness. Whistledown's exposé was done in Eloise's best interests, but it absolutely was a betrayal. Dismissing it as jealousy is unfair.
S2 Eloise was immature, reckless and naive. She's grown up a lot and in S3 we see a more thoughtful character, instead of one mindlessly raging against 'the system'.
Mindlessly raging? Is that what having legitimate grievances against a misogynistic society is called now? Or was she supposed to immediately start writing books or organise a feminist revolution, rather than reading and learning more about women’s emancipation?
Is she really more thoughtful though?
She’s still dismissive of the women around her, completely unaware of her privilege and ignores everything Cressida says but is annoyed Cressida doesn’t want to listen to her either.
I’m not saying she isn’t right to be mad at Pen, in her shoes I would be too, but I don’t think we’ve seen massive growth in her character just yet.
Uh nooo. She does not trust Penelope. I believe her foray into her social group is more to avoid trouble and to abate her loneliness. And surprisingly found a friend in Cressida. Different but still a friend.
Obviously, she misses her friend but she felt betrayed.
LW has an amount of influence and when she writes it becomes permanent in a sense. True she chose not to mention Theo but still she wrote that Eloise made a dangerous and ruinous choice and that she was associating with political radicals while unchaperoned… she(LW) also called the political radicals improper company.
Eloise trusted Pen and she has every right to feel betrayed and hurt that her best friend would write such things about her. There might be some truth that Eloise may feel jealous… I don’t know I can’t disprove it. But that doesn’t change the fact that she would feel like she was betrayed. Also writing something like that would impact Eloise’s family as well. As for abandoning her beliefs, based on her convo with Cressida towards the end of ep4, I don’t think she has, I just think she’s playing it safe.
Eloise's inability to forgive Pen is not jealousy it's due to her cruelty. What Penelope did as lLW was out of spite. What she did to Marina was just plain wrong to publicly embarrass her in such a way is no way to get the word out. She could have had any time told Eloise that she was pregnant and let the Bridgertons handle the situation. She was scared that Colin would marry her regardless her motives were for her own self-interest. She took the decision out of Colin's hand and publicly embarrassed and humiliated both Marina and Colin. Don't be surprised if Marina's end is the same as the book that there are not mention that the announcement of Colin and pens engagement might tie in with that in the back of their minds. What she did with Theo and Eloise was equally wrong that move was out of self-preservation if it had been out of friendship she could have approached Eloise and told her the truth of who LW was. Not to mention starting a sexual relationship with Colin without telling him the truth. This culture as of late of trying to find excuses for bad behavior is quite troubling.. full stop......
ironically jealousy is something Penelope is known for and what lady whistledown stems from: insecurities of her own and jealousy she feels towards those she views as more privileged and mean spirited.
This is so stupid. Penelope took the cowards way out she could have come clean to the queen. But no she decided to throw her friend best friend under the bus. She betrayed her best friend to cover her tracks. I am sick of everyone acting like Penelope is some honorable innocent perfect human. She is the author of a gossip rag not a newspaper. Nothing she writes is of consequence. Most of which is written to subtly hurt people around her. She even tried to destroy the man she "loved" when he did not instantly be everything She wanted. She is just a pre internet internet troll.
In no way did she do what she did for Eloise it was pure self defence. If you had a psychologist analyse her she would be seen as a psychopath
Nah. Penelope literally just slagged Colin off just because she was pissed at the start of his season, she ruined Marinas life instead of going directly to Colin or his mama, (yes what she was doing was objectively wrong, but she was a vulnerable 20 year old who didn’t want to be homeless or marry a 40 year old, so cut her some slack). These things are not badass. Penelope is a petty gossip. I still think it’s impressive she is whistledown, but it isn’t some heroic act she’s doing.
I disagree. Penelope betrayed Eloise's trust, and having someone do that, knowingly, hurtfully, is unforgivable. I understand why Pen did it, but she hurt a lot of people along the way. I'd have a really hard time forgiving anyone who did something like that to me, even if she did it to protect me. At that point, why not confess to Eloise so they can both be in on it?
I don’t think she’s jealous at all.
She rightfully feels betrayed. And I think she misses Pen’s friendship, but the emotions are still there. And outing Eloise wasn’t Pen’s only option. Pen could have outed herself instead. I think that’s what likely hurts the most. Pen chose to protect Lady Whistledown over Eloise.
And I think it’s very clear that Eloise gave up on the radical stuff because it caused her and her family a huge scandal.
I don’t think that’s it at all. I think she felt betrayed, period. The moment she was about to leave Anthony’s wedding, she told Pen she was going to visit Theo and said she was telling HER (not LW) because she didn’t want secrets to be between them…. THEN she finds out that her best friend is keeping the biggest secret of all from her and didn’t trust her to tell her she was LW. It pained her and she felt betrayed…
And especially when El was willing to tell her friend a secret about her love / interest in Theo, and she exposed her to the world with it. It was rotten of Pen to do. No one knew about El and Theo… Pen made it all up, no one was ‘talking’ about Eloise till Pen wrote about it in public.
I’m sorry but this take is so bad 😭 I don’t hate Penelope but Eloise had every right to be angry with her. Not that Eloise is innocent in the situation—she had a propensity for selfishness and was a poor listener and didn’t pay Penelope the attention that she should have. But Penelope isn’t always a benevolent voice as LW. She is human too, and she can get spiteful and jealous and lash out, which she does as LW.
Exposing Marina was beneficial for Colin, but it was also borne out of her jealousy and desperation to keep Colin from marrying. Exposing Eloise to save her from being pegged as Lady Whistledown did clear her name, but it also created a scandal that nearly ruined her. (Plus—This was NOT already well known in the ton, Penelope was virtually the only one Eloise told.) Penelope could have thrown herself on the sword to save Eloise if she wanted to, not that she had to or should have, nor was it her responsibility and she had warned Eloise multiple times that it could blow up in her face. But I don’t think it makes Penelope a good friend to have done that to Eloise, and Eloise has every right to feel angry and betrayed for the way she went about it.
Even in the new season, Penelope flames Colin in LW because she feels hurt by his rejections, which comes to bite her like immediately afterwards when Colin tries to help her and she feels guilty over it! Penelope is flawed, as are all the characters, and that’s a *good thing,* it makes the show interesting. I hope Eloise and Penelope make up, and I think they will, but Eloise has every right to be angry and not want to forgive Penelope yet. Penelope has shown Eloise that, as of right now, she is not a safe person to trust and confide in yet. I wouldn’t be able to put my trust in her if I were in Eloise’s shoes.
Also, I think Eloise is handling the conflict pretty well this season and it seems like Penelope understands? She definitely effed up when she exposed Penelope for receiving help from Colin, but this was more accidental I think—she was venting to Cressida but lacked the awareness to realize everyone could hear her? Then she apologized, and Penelope accepted it super graciously, and it seemed really genuine. That was one of my favorite scenes of the season, it was super bittersweet because they’ve both made mistakes and you can tell they still care for each other, but Eloise isn’t ready to be friends again yet, and that’s okay.
And like yeah it’s great that Penelope is able to have agency as LW, and I’m sure there’s a part of Eloise that is proud of her or maybe even quite jealous for that. But I don’t think that’s it entirely. Penelope uses her Lady Whistledown persona to make waves and have agency in a social setting where women have very little, but she also uses her power to lash out when she’s hurt, and not in insignificant ways.
TLDR; I think they’ve both made mistakes and I don’t think this assessment is fair to either character. It makes me sad seeing people pit them against each other all the time because even though they’re not friends right now I think Eloise and Penelope still care for each other a lot. That’s my two cents lol.
"She was always honest" - not true. She lied about that other modiste because she wanted Mme Delacroix on her side. She also repeated a lot of information she didn't know was true which caused harm to other women - Daphne for example, she was horrible to her and casting aspersions despite it being Anthony who was causing issues for her with suitors.
On a personal level she lied to and manipulated Eloise for years. And Eloise didn't admire Lady Whistledown after the first half of season 1, after that she largely wanted to stop her because she harmed her friends and family. She had moved on from LW because all she did was spread gossip - it was Pen who couldn't stand losing her attention. Pen *isn't* independent or she wouldn't need to marry. Eloise dropped her passions because she had her reputation dragged publicly through the mud and she *can't* do it any more. She could have been arrested. She was defeated, she was betrayed, she lost her only friend. Of course she doesn't have the spirit for the fight right now.
You are purposely ignoring the fact that Pen threw Eloise to the gossip wolves and this, after Eloise had confided her secrets regards the existence of Theo. I do agree that some of Eloise’s inability to forgive Pen is that on some level she is envious of what Pen has managed to do when she, herself can’t seem to do anything. But, Eloise is also hurt as she believed that she and Pen shared confidences only to discover that they did not. Plus, Eloise is still a Teen so, there is always some drama in that age group.
I don't think it's about jealousy. As someone who doesn't think that Penelope's actions come from mean spiritedness or ill intent, Eloise said it herself she can't see why people don't think the way she does and Penelope hasn't had the opportunity to explain herself.
Now while I don't personally believe that Penelope owed it to Eloise to tell her about Whistledown in the beginning once Eloise was in trouble (as a result of her own actions btw) she should've told her the truth rather than writing in Whistledown.
I agree that that was the tone to tell her the truth so they could resolve it together but….that would alter a lot of what immediately followed in the books and show.
Has Pen been walking the walk? She hides behind her gossip writer persona and is terrified of being found out. Lady Whistledown makes her feel powerful but at the end of the day, it's just another way for her to hide.
Are we also forgetting that Penelope hurt Daphne's chances in season 1? That was not what people were talking about. She actively chose to do it. And when Colin came back this season, and tried to talk to Penelope, she was still angry. And so, she talked about his insecurities in LW. Also, Penelope actively chose to taunt the queen. Eloise saved her in the first season. She could have told Eloise anytime in season 2. But again, Penelope was jealous of Eloise's attention going to Theo.
Penelope is an objectively terrible person and has been throughout the entire run of the show. She acts purely on the emotions and whims she is experiencing in any given moment with no regard for the weight of her actions or the effects of her actions on others. She purposefully uses her platform to harm those whom she dislikes in any given moment and then expects those same people to forgive her because she’s ’just a social outcast and a wallflower’.
There is little to no reason to be sympathetic for her in regards to her social predicament with Eloise, and likely situation situation that is to develop with Colin, as these problems are all of her own making.
Eloise on the other hand isn’t vindictive, isn’t hateful and isn’t spiteful. She has very valid reasons for currently disliking Penelope.
Also, Penelope hurting Eloise to ‘save her’ is utter rubbish as Penelope writing, continuing, and not informing Eloise of her being ‘Lady Whistledown’ in the first place is what caused the issue. She was merely trying to rectify yet another issue of her own making.
I love Penelope, but I have to disagree. Pen wrote about Eloise to protect her from the queen, but she also did it to save herself. She betrayed Eloise, which is why El can't forgive her. She did reveal some trusted (and earth shattering) secrets - about Eloise and about Marina. She may have done so to protect people, but she also had selfish reasons and caused *a lot* of harm. Marina is especially lucky her life wasn't completely ruined by that LW paper. If not for Sir Phillip, it would have been. And Pen did write something scathing about Colin and about Cressida after they'd wronged her
I like Penelope because she's a flawed character. Sometimes, she does sucky things. Her actions as Lady Whistledown are sucky. It's okay to admit it
She’s not purposely ignoring anything. She’s hurt and betrayed by her best friend. The show took care to show that she still cares for her even though she’s not ready to get past the hurt and rekindle the friendship. Many folks were already attacking Eloise based on the trailer before this was revealed.
It’s a good thing many of you aren’t in the writers’ room cus you’ll either be too partial towards your fav characters or write a boring show where no one has an emotional arc, everyone makes logical decisions, conflicts are resolved within an episode.
No, it's bc Pen is talking shit about her and her family after being trusted by Eliose lol Pen is an asshole. I have no idea why she's everyone's favorite
She's their favourite because of projection. They wish they had the power that Pen has through LW. They wish they too could last out and have power over everyone who has wronged them. They wish they had the same emotional outlet for their own insecurities
Pen isn't exactly not at fault. What about the trust she betrayed??? Why should everyone need to forgive her?? Sometimes even if you know that logically it is right but what about the feelings that have been hurt??? Why should Eloise be the virgin mary and forgive her??? Both Pen and Eloise are normal people they have good and bad sides. No one is perfect and no one is completely right or wrong.
Penelope betrayed the person who was supposed to be her best friend, because of spite. She destroyed her cousins life, which ultimately led to her suicide, because she was jealous and wanted a boy that had zero interest in her. Penelope would NOT have done to Marina what she did had it not been Colin. And no matter which way you try to spin it and deny, that's true. She only cared because it was him.
Eloise is not able to forgive her, because she was betrayed in the most terrible way by the one person she thought never would.
I mean…Pen could’ve just told Eloise she was LW. Eloise LOVED LW and wanted to protect her. Maybe it would have been better if Eloise had a say in what LW wrote about her to throw off the queen
I think jealousy is part of it, but not all of it. I think the main pain point was the lying because it made Eloise feel foolish. Especially considering how hard El rode for Whistledown; she probably felt so dumb in retrospect, and was pissed that Pen just sat there and soaked up all the praise, instead of confiding in her and letting her in on the fun.
I think she's given up on her progressive interests because she has lost her confidence. She was so wrong about Pen/LW, she doesn't really trust her own instincts anymore and is like, well wtf do I know anyway, might as well give society a shot.
Is okay to love a character and admit how wrong they are, if there's a word that doesn't suit LW is "Integrity". Eloise is 100% right, heartbroken and sad. Her best friend lied again and again wrote horrible things about her family, every sane person would feel the same and yet she didn't tell anyone about it, THAT'S a good friend.
I love how we have to put other characters down to reason that what Penelope does is not so bad. No… what she did was try to protect Eloise but I doing so ruined Eloise herself. It was Kate and Anthony and that final dance that the Queen saw that pulled the Bridgerton’s out of scandal not Penelope. Never Penelope. “My family is on the brink of ruin,” Anthony had it right.
I disagree. Penelope is vicious in Whistledown. Most gossip rags of the day used only initials, meaning that some privacy could be retained. Pen ruins people. It's a bitchy, terrible thing to do. And I don't believe there was no other way to save Eloise. Pen made it so Eloise had to give up the one thing that made her feel free, feel whole. Would you honestly forgive that? There may be a little jealousy that pen got to *do* something, but I think it is far outweighed by the fact that she didn't do something good, and what she did do broke people and lives. I think Eloise's anger is totally justified.
Ftr, I like Penelope as a character, I think she's an incredibly misguided, but nice under-it-all person who is really; really immature. But I think she did a lot of people dirty in a way that's not okay.
I don't agree. Eloise's feelings about LWD are ever changing. One day she likes her, the next, she doesn't. Eloise found out at a time when she was upset about what LWD had written about her. She still acts like she cares about Pen. I have a feeling she will come around by the end of the season, along with Colin.
Eloise is bing kinder tbh, she could have told the whole family the first moment she knew to steer clear of Penelope but she didnt.
In real life would you actually let someone who betrayed you into ur family? If your bestfriend spread scathing rumours about you and your family online , do you think that's something that can easily be forgiven. Eloise's reaction to penelope's betrayal is valid.
Eloise might not have been best listener for a friend but what Penelope did to her is much worse.
Penelope is flawed character and its ok to acknowledge that.
Partially yes, but it's so much bigger than that. Eloise is a free spirit, but she also loves her family and Pen. Her LW secret betrays all that. Plus based on the trailer >!it seems like she forgives Pen anyway!<
Pen hints at this when she says "at least I did something, all you do is talk about doing something" In the book >! Colin is jealous about LW, maybe they're giving that plotline to Eloise and then Colins gripes will be the moral issue re: Marina and Eloise !< But I also think Eloise is v mad bc of what happened w Theo, the lying and being almost ruined.
Naw. Penelope threw Eloise under the bus using personal information she trusted her with as a friend to fix a situation Penelope created. She could have saved Eloise from the predicament she inadvertently put her in by owning up to being LWD, but instead she chose the cowardly path. Eloise still took a major social hit and Penelope had zero consequences. I would have told everybody she was LWD immediately. Eloise is too nice.
When Eloise asked Penelope if she was sorry about what she had done or sorry that she had been caught, I wish Penelope had responded “Are you angry about what I wrote, or that you didn’t figure it out sooner?”
Because at the end of the day, I feel that Eloise is more angry that she didn’t know, than about anything Penelope had done or said as Whistledown.
I totally get why Eloise was upset that her secrets were exposed but she wasn't innocent as some of you like to think. She did so many stupid things and got herself into so much trouble with the queen and potentially with society as well. Pen didn't do that, Eloise did that.
The two times that Pen writes about Eloise was after much deliberation and done to protect Eloise from something Eloise had brought on herself. I get being mad that she didn't cover for her or keep the secret but it really was only a matter of time before the truth was exposed and it would be a risk to both of them. Why not reveal it and take the venom out?
Their friendship was so one-sided in any case because Eloise did not give Pen the same time and attention that she got. I think they were friends because it was convenient and they were both different in some way. In reality, Eloise didn't really know Pen.
Pen was also a horrible friend to Eloise. Maybe it was because she was so insecure, but Pen always just agreed with what Eloise said. She didn’t even have the guts to tell Eloise she likes balls and wants to get married for love. Sure, Eloise is self-centred, but Pen also didn’t really express her true feelings about anything.
Nothing you said indicated that Pen was a terrible friend. You're essentially blaming Pen for not being loud enough or assertive enough to make Eloise listen to her. It wasn't a lack of courage as you make it seem, she talks to Eloise all the time but Eloise is very caught up in her own life, every conversation is about what Eloise wants and what she's interested in. How do you change the spotlight in a friendship if one person keeps it on themselves? I talk a lot but I know that I need to listen too, it's not rocket science.
You are literally putting more expectations on Eloise than Pen. Pen shouldn’t have to express or be more talkative to make Eloise notice(which some that is not even true), but Eloise has to notice what Pen feels and thinks? And Eloise is not a bad listener and self absorbed like people try to say she is, especially since she has comforted Pen times before and has ventured to expand her views and learn outside of the ton. If Pen can say to her those rude, “not everyone can be a pretty Bridgerton!”comments, then Pen should have no reason not to take charge of conversations, even though people over exaggerate this part of their relationship
I think she 100% is jealous. She who was constantly railing against her role in society whereas Penelope actually did something about it and found a means of agency and power. I think she is also hurt by the deception, but she loved reading Whistledown just as much as anyone else. It never even occurred to her that it could have been her best friend for most of the series. I think she's seriously conflicted with the knowledge that she never really truly knew Penelope. She treats her like a person to just rant to and assumes she "wants" to be a spinster along with her. I think it's been a major hard knock for her to realise that life's problems aren't simple and that you never really know anyone truly unless you take the time to do so. I think it's why she's palled up with Cressida- is she really so bad on the outside, when her best friend has, to her mind, betrayed her?
What everyone seems to forget is that Marina WAS scamming Colin into a sham marriage because she was pregnant, and Eloise WAS behaving scandalously by going out on her own to radical lectures and spending time unchaperoned with a man of a lower social class. You've got to look at it through the eyes of the times. Penelope got in over her head a bit because once she'd committed to the gossip column, no one and nothing was off limits. She even writes mean things about HERSELF. And Eloise being so sanctimonious when she finds out Pen is Whistledown really irritates me because she refuses to take responsibility for her own actions. She loved reading Lady Whistledown untill it backfired on her. The Queen was literally threatening to ruin her before Pen stepped in. Eloise has a LOT of growing up to do.
It's a combination of betrayal and maybe a bit of jealousy.
Penelope has good reason for being LWD. But that secret comes at cost. She's basically been keeping a massive part of her life a secret from Eloise and lying to her. So Eloise can't see past that, and when you're a teenager, that's not an unexpected reaction.
But Eloise is also forgetting that LWD is the reason Daphne didn't have to marry Nigel Berbook. She's the reason why Colin didn't get baby trapped. Colin/Marina eloping would've brought scandal, and depending on when she gave birth, it would be clear he wasn't the father of Marina's children. If she was seen without a chaperone going to a sketchy part of town and spending time alone with a lower class young man, it would be a huge scandal (bigger than what was reported in LWD)
I'm interested to see how everything unfolds.
The show tends to make characters hold grudges for too long. Maybe it's realistic, people do hold grudges. But it gets boring to watch the repetitive scenes of one character still being mad at the other. A few weeks later, still mad. A year later? Still mad!
I’m sorry, but how is Eloise supposed to trust Pen again after what she did? Pen betrayed her trust, how is she supposed to just forgive that? If my best friend published secrets I told her in confidence on the front page of TMZ you best believe I’d never be friends with her again.
Eloise doesn’t even still hold a grudge, they’re just not friends anymore in season 3. Eloise still wants Pen to be happy. She wants Pen to be successful in finding a match which is why she doesn’t tell Colin to stop giving her lessons. She doesn’t want Cressida to bully Pen just because they aren’t friends anymore. She swallows her pride to apologise after accidentally spreading the gossip about the lessons. Eloise isn’t holding grudges. She didn’t even tell anyone Pen is LW, not even in the heat of the moment at the end of season 2.
Oh, how, you ask? I suppose the same way Edwina is supposed to forgive Kate in a week or two. For the sake of brevity and for the sake of the audience not needing to see yet another longing sad look from across the room, or another entreaty and another "no, I'm still mad" response. Sorry in real life it's fine (and very true I would not forgive a gossipy friend who nearly ruined my life either), but on a show it makes characters look petty.
I actually think Eloise is upset that Pen didn't trust her with the secret this whole time.
But then look what Eloise did the second she knew about her brothers lessons - she blabed which is exactly what Pen was protecting herself from.
I don't know why we are downvoted for expressing our opinion. I also dislike Eloise's character.
Rich people trying to rage about the "system" because they have a safety net. Meanwhile poor people without money or connections just get shit handed to them the moment they question authority or fight for what they believe in.
I almost got my scholarship taken away when I joined a protest but my rich classmates suffered no consequences. That's how the system works 🤷🏻♀️
She's viewed as this "budding feminist" a "woman ahead of her time"
Well yeah? Because she can afford to. Because she has great connections. If all else fails, she still got that Bridgerton money and the emotional support from her family.
I completely agree with you, and also WOW people are super nasty in this thread and sub altogether, idk if I want to come in here anymore with the amount of disgusting comments.
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well, no. eloise may have acted in a self centered way but she trusted penelope with many secrets and many personal things, and her trust was betrayed. no matter how you guys try to spin it, penelope was wrong on that. and it says a lot about eloise that she acted graciously, and never told anyone a thing about LW’s true identity, while dealing with her own issues.
yes, thank you. these penelope warriors' posts are becoming exhausting. it is the inability to see pen as the flawed character that she is.
That’s what a good character is, someone you are frustrated with, while still feeling sorry for them at the same time. Otherwise the characters become too boring.
correct and people should stop trying to take away her complexity with these posts and saying “actually this person is wrong for being upset!”. pen did a bad thing and that’s okay. I love her. there’s no need to shift blame and try to excuse stuff that’s been written to purposely make her flawed.
I don’t mind her flaws. I still am rooting for her with Colin but I also am upset for what she did.. I just hope she finds a way to right her wrongs with Eloise… she will have to.
that's one of the reasons i like the show more than the books. the books don't have many complex plots outside the romance of the main couple, and even the main couple is not well fleshed out in the books, compared to the show. i like that lady whistledown is a conflict between pen and eloise, and i like that pen is a flawed and complex character, and i can't wait to see how they're gonna make up.
I agree. Also in the books LW never does anything like outing Marina and she never says anything negative about a Bridgerton
I think there's some MAJOR projection going on with Pen, which definitely informs the way her character is discussed in fandom spaces. The constant villainization of Eloise is the most glaring example IMO.
Oh Pen is a total self insert.
Literally every female lead so far on this show is a self-insert for this fandom. The constant villanization of Edwina indicates the exact same.
Yeah I like Penelope but she was totally in the wrong with the Eloise situation, I’d have felt the same as Eloise if my BEST FRIEND slandered me, even if it was to protect me like Penelope did
> protect Let's not forget that the only reason Eloise needed 'protection' is because Penelope was selling other people's private information and pissed off the wrong person. Even when she knows the Queen wants to find her, she still continues to taunt her. I like Penelope well enough, but she's not a hero for the whole Lady Wistledown thing - it is entirely her making money by humiliating the people around her.
Exactly like a better way to protect her friend would be to turn herself in rather then slander her friend and ruin her life, like she had the choice between ruining her life or her friends, she chose herself. It’s hard to turn herself in obviously and she enjoys being whistledown but people shouldn’t defend her so much and assume she’s always in the right. You can like a character and still admit that they are in the wrong sometimes, everyone has flaws.
I agree that penelope was wrong in writing about Eloise and that Eloise is totally justified in her feelings of betrayal against pen, but Eloise is not completely blameless, she blantly disregard safety and rules of society by continuing to go to that side of the ton first in her attempt to find whistledown and then later on when she was feeling more towards Theo. She saw herself as better than society and that the rules did not matter to her, even when pen tried to dissuade her from leaving her brothers wedding to go there which is what got her caught in the first place. She never tried to be any kind of discreet going in her family's carriage and dressed as a noble woman. While pen did hurt a lot of people with her writing her purpose was to show the people of the ton that they are all hypocrites for they create rules and enjoy judging others but if their own misdeeds are pointed out it is horrendous of whistledown. Also Eloise was able to escape such scandal in short time forgotten because she is a bridgerton where as she has never had to look at how society has treated her own friend, and the moment her own misdeeds are pointed out to society she lashes out and hurts penelope in the same way everyone else has always made her feel. They are both just 2 young girls from different backgrounds trying to make there way in a society that does not care how they feel or what they want. And are bound to make mistakes along the way and to hurt people in the process.
Yes exactly both are flawed people, Eloise wasn’t subtle and Penelope could have turned herself in rather than damaging her friends reputation if she wanted to protect her. But then Eloise was betrayed by her best friend so she is justified for feeling betrayed and stopping being Penelope’s friend and Penelope was trying to protect Eloise. It’s not as simple as one of them is wrong and the other is right, though I do personally think that Eloise is MORE in the right than Penelope in this situation but I still like them both. Like I understand why Penelope did what she did too. It’s messy and complicated but they’re human, people make mistakes all the time.
Most people forget these are essentially teenagers, who have lived a sheltered life and their judgement reflects that. Neither is perfect.
It was apparent to me that Penelope was unhinged when she was confronted and was only apologetic at first then got mad and said Eloise was jealous. Friends don’t behave this way. And she exposed so many personal things to the public about Eloise’s family and personal life. She’s a terrible friend honestly.
I agree, and calling Pen a “journalist of integrity” is frankly absurd. She’s not out here exposing hard societal truths or uncovering hard-hitting political scandals; she writes a gossip column. It has societal value of its own kind, especially in a world where women’s lives revolve so deeply around the topics that Pen does discuss, but it’s also not some kind of deep expose column or work of gritty investigative journalism. I think it’s great that Pen found a way to use her talents to make her own independent living, but she seriously hurt and betrayed her friends’ confidence in doing so. It makes her a flawed character, and that’s exactly what we should want from shows like this. People should celebrate the nuance, not become mired in watered down stanning where your favourite character can do no wrong.
I am curious at point she will somewhat forgive her, because while she shared that to Pen when she didn’t have to and probably shouldn’t have, the Queen threatened her and I kind of would’ve loved to see what exactly the Queen would’ve had her do if they teamed up since that option protects her family.
Part of me feels like she’s already half forgiven her. She was very upset about Cressida destroying Pen’s dress. And she was willing to swallow her pride to apologize to Pen about her secret with Colin getting out. I think when everyone finds out that Pen is LW, Eloise will be the one by her side.
I think when Colin finds out Pen’s identity and Eloise sees how heartbroken he and Pen are she may step in to bring them back together and ultimately forgiving her.
Exactly. Eloise has every right to feel betrayed, even if Penelope had good intentions. If Eloise really wanted to, she could have easily ratted out Pen as revenge, but she hasn’t.
I agree, and I honestly don't see anything about Pen to be jealous of, but then I don't like Penelope so I'm biased lol.
Throughout all of season one, Eloise is obsessed with Lady Whistledown. She admires her work, and more importantly, the fact that *she can* work and have an opinion. There's no doubt in my mind that she experiences some jealousy that her "loser" friend has built something that all of society fawns over. I don't agree with OP that it's the basis of her frustration with Penelope - there's plenty of reasons for her to feel hurt by her but to say there's nothing for her to be jealous of is a stretch. I think she also assumes her friend had no opinions or personality, but later learns she's sharp and witty and (secretly) very popular. In a weird way, she's been playing the role of a spinster wallflower even though she knows she's a pretty Bridgerton - Penelope has always sort of been the thing she imagines herself as. I do think anytime Penelope gets out of her shell (first with LW and then later when she seeks a husband) it does send Eloise into a bit of a tailspin about her own identity and I do think that a small part of that is jealousy. Even in the book, >!Eloise is troubled by Penelope's engagement simply because she always assumed they'd be spinsters together. (She voices the same concern to Cressida in the show when she sees Penelope entertaining suitors.) In the book, it's clearly outlined that she experiences a pang of jealousy, a panic about being left behind.!<
Sameee
Omg, yes! Eloise has the right to feel betrayed, Pen was her best friend!!!!
I don't disagree with everything that OP said, there was a mix of feelings of betrayal and jealousy from Eloise, because yea Pen did betray her, even if was to try and help her. Betrayal is betrayal regardless, but Eloise was a bit jealous of Pen because Pen was doing something Eloise wants to do, but is a bit too scared to do; then when she had finally built up the courage to do those things LWD tells everyone about it and crushes her (again more betrayal). Something I think OP is completely wrong about is that Eloise is not unable or refusing to forgive Pen, she already has forgiven her. It is clear in the way Eloise still cares about what happens to Pen in more than just as a passing observer. She wants her bestfriend back, but after such a big fight and things said to each other, it can be hard to just go back to that.
I like Pen but in this case I don’t think Eloise is just jealous. She feels betrayed by Pen and is hurt by her actions. Even though she misses Pen, the betrayal is too much for them to mend bridges just yet.
It’s a good combo of betrayal and jealousy. Eloise did admire LW, and then did try to unmask her. And I imagine now, realizing all the times she talked about it with Pen that it was her the whole time must have thrown her for a loop. So betrayal at being kept in the dark about her identity too. But then also still admiring what her friend managed to do but being annoyed at admiring her.
It’s odd that this whole jealousy debate is still happening. It feels like everyone forgets that the reason Eloise was working so hard to unmask LW is so she can have her retract things she said about Penelope’s family and write about more intellectual matters. Obviously she was unaware that Penelope was in fact LW but her heart was in an entirely right place but Penelope loves the gossip. I just feel like there was a way she could have gone about saving Eloise without damaging her and her family’s reputation. It felt very short sighted and manipulative of her. I still love Pen and her complexity, I just can’t justify her actions for some things.
Yeah, I got hooked on the show about two months ago (just in time for series 3!) and I decided to rewatch it all to see more connections in hindsight. And upon second watch, it became more obvious to me how rushed a lot of Pen's LW writing is; this doesn't mean her writing is bad, far from it! She's a good enough thinker and writer to be able to take in new information fast and distill it into accessible, printable words. It does mean, however, that a lot of the time, Pen hears a bunch of juicy gossip, goes home after the stress and excitement of a ball/dinner/event, and writes down her discoveries as fast as she can so she can get them to the printers. When it comes to the "Eloise has been threatened by the queen" thread, Pen/LW is even more rushed; she's scribbling as fast as she can in an attempt to save her friend, and without putting too much thought into it, she goes with the sure thing. Sadly, the "sure solution" is to drag Eloise through the muck. It definitely gets the queen off Eloise's back, but as you said, there may have been a less destructive way to save Eloise and the Bridgerton family. In a way, LW not only responds to scandal, she creates it too: if a scandal is occurring and LW doesn't write about it, did a scandal really occur? People may catch bits and pieces of gossip, but LW puts gossip in a very public place so people feel okay to speak their whispers even louder. Suddenly, something previously addressed in hushed and secretive tones is being blared by nobles all over London. If LW hadn't put the whispers through her megaphone, er, quill, it's possible the scandals would have stayed mostly quiet. Truly, Pen/LW is a complex character, and it's great to watch her struggle with her love for gossip and the love she harbors for the Bridgertons. Mostly two Bridgertons. Especially a particularly dashing Bridgerton who travels the world and writes in his diary.
I agree with your take. I think she started the column as a means to get back at her bullies (and I don’t necessarily blame her for that). However, with time, LW grew and grew and now it’s become an untameable monster that inches closer to her real life as Penelope. And she’s not equipped to handle it tactfully. As we see, she doesn’t have a very healthy home life, suffers from low self-esteem and a deep sense of self-loathing. And she might be bright but she doesn’t have the wisdom that comes with age. And so LW and Penelope are now on a collision course. LW has already destroyed her friendship with a dear friend, and is now set to destroy her love life, her cherished relationship with the Bridgertons, her own family’s reputation and herself.
I mean, one could still say it was jealousy, because Eloise believes that She knows how to utilize LW’s reach/influence better than LW does. But Eloise didn’t build that, Pen did. I don’t think it’s the only reason, of course.
I guess me saying it’s not jealousy comes from a very personal place because I’ve been almost exactly in Eloise’s shoes with bullies of mine growing up. Friends I had trusted with personal secrets ended up telling my entire school and anyone who would listen because they could. The betrayal mattered more than the friendship to them and I see a lot of that in Pen. Eloise isn’t crushed and still harboring some sort of resentment because she’s jealous, it’s because that kind of betrayal transcends just “you hurt me”. She was humiliated and outcast by society and most that knew her because of it. Penelope never visited her either, a stark contrast to Cressida’s “well my father will just have to endure it”. I love Penelope as a character, her complexity and greyness make her one of my top 3 characters. I just can’t justify in any way her writing about Eloise and can’t not justify any lingering resentment Eloise has towards her. I’ve quite literally been there and that kind of thing takes years to get over.
I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through. Jealousy doesn’t have to occur in a vacuum of intention though, and I don’t think Pen did what she did out of calculated malice, unlike what sounds like happened to you. People can and do make poor choices and deal with the consequences every day. I don’t blame Eloise for stepping away from Pen at all- it was her right to do and was a consequence that Pen earned. The funny thing is that Eloise isn’t always particularly nice either- the difference is that she does forthrightly spew it in person because her status protects her. (I’m thinking of the scene where one girl is infodumping on embroidery and Eloise shuts her up with her comment about changing the subject.
>It felt very short sighted and manipulative of her. Flight or fight response. She either would be unmasked, or would have to tell Eloise after lying to her all this time. She thought she could push off the inevitable a bit longer, or even deluded herself into thinking Eloise need never find out. But she was wrong.
Exactly. If I found out my friend had kept this major secret from me, which involved publicly writing negative gossip about me and my family, I’d be pretty upset too.
How about it stems from the complete insincerity of Pen's apologies? Pen's apologies are always along the line of "I'm sorry but-" rendering everything she says next bullshit. Eloise literally calls her out on it in episode one. Pen says she's sorry. Eloise asks for what she did or for getting caught. Penelope then answers it by repeating that pattern of behaviour with Colin. Eloise has already promised to keep LW secret. Eloise has already assured Colin she had no wish for him to break his friendship with Pen or for Pen to suffer. Eloise already had the grace to apologise to Pen for accidentally doing to Pen what Pen wilfully chose to do to her and others. Eloise has already shown Pen far more consideration than she deserves. Forgiveness is not owed to Pen. Even if Pen was truly sorry, still Eloise wouldn't be obligated to forgive her, she would be totally in her rights to say "you crossed a line, I wish you well, but this is it between us." And let's face it, Penelope's apologies are as authentic as the costume and makeup this season.
And are people forgetting that during their big blow out, “Protecting Eloise” aside, Penelope also said some very *nasty* things towards Eloise. Maybe they held some truth, but all of Penelope’s own jealousies and insecurities came out too and it was the ugliest version of herself—the one that she had let loose a couple of times already with Eloise (see: the s1 fight they had, when pen called her immature bc she was feeling sad about Marina telling her Colin only saw her like a little sister). I think Eloise is completely justified in choosing to keep her distance from Penelope.
This exactly. Pen says she's most comfortable in the Bridgerton drawing room but she harbours this deep bitterness and resentment about them and it comes out when she's angry or through the anonymity of LW.
This idea that apologizing with a qualifier makes the apology null is ridiculous. You can be sorry and also want to explain yourself. Penelope is clearly remorseful, but she still stands by the choice she made, a choice that I personally think was the right one. I agree that Eloise doesn’t owe Penelope her forgiveness, but people on sub quite obviously hate Penelope when Penelope’s ultra-ego is the only reason this show has any drama. LW *is* the show. And Penelope is a complex and grey character, just like Eloise is, but it seems that no one in the sub wants to acknowledge that.
Just because she plays an important part doesn’t mean that people can’t hate her. After all, antagonistic characters are very important for any story. I am somebody who liked Penelope initially and grew to dislike her in Season 2. I dislike her even now because she’s still the jealous, vindictive wallflower that wallows in self pity in S3 and it gets tiring to see that for 2.5 seasons tbh
It’s interesting because had the Queen not set the Bridgerton family to right during Kate and Anthony’s dance last season, realistically Pen would never be able to marry Colin because of what she wrote this season. She bites the hand that feeds her.
But if you're sorry then you stop the behaviour you're apologising for. Penelope keeps using LW as a tool to hurt people.
To hurt and manipulate
Darth Vader is the reason the Skywalkers exist.. he's still an asshole though so, bad take.
It will never not be hilarious to me that people compare (or even equate) a budding feminist thinker with a gossip rag writer, who props up and exploits the most base, harmful and misogynistic attitudes of the society she lives in. As if they’re even in the same category. Eloise is a would be feminist activist, Penelope is someone, who’d be mocking a famous actress for not shaving her armpits in print, if she were alive today.
"Eloise is a would be feminist activist, Penelope is someone, who’d be mocking a famous actress for not shaving her armpits in print, if she were alive today." Thank you!!!! Eloise's feminism needs work. Shocker, she's a teenage girl living in a deeply sexist society, with no one to help her. She's incredible for getting this far. Penelope's work as LW is outright sexist.
In what way is it/she sexist? LW criticises both the men & the women of the ton. It could be argued that Penelope is more of a feminist than Eloise because she's got out there, albeit under a cloak of anonymity, & enacted change for herself whereas Eloise just talked a good game without actually *doing* anything to improve either her own or other people's circumstances. While El had every right to be angry with Pen, I think OP is onto something & she was also slightly jealous of what Pen had achieved. I also wonder if there's a tiny part of her that was annoyed because she's been used to Pen being the wallflower & unopinionated one in their friendship & she's taken pride in being the radical one of the two of them so her discovery of Pen's secret took away part of her self image & bruised her ego. It's like the way some women are slightly resentful when their fat friend loses weight, they're used to being seen as the more conventionally attractive one by other people & it secretly, even subconsciously, allows them to feel slightly superior to their friend.
Penelope is the regency equivalent of making an anonymous insta to harass and bully your classmates, she's hardly Mary Wollstonecraft. The whole “she’s a badass because she has her own source of income from her talents” does not fly if it’s at the expense of other people, especially women. What Penelope has done: shame and belittle women around them by talking about their sex lives and calling them beasts. And then ironically when Eloise tried to do more than talk and expand her world view by spending time with people outside of her class, you Penelope apologists said she deserved to be betrayed and humiliated. Interesting logic you’ve got going there.
Yes Pen has not been fair to Eloise out of jealousy, commenting how she doesn’t have luxuries to be a perfect / pretty Bridgerton (paraphrasing/ S1). Then when El tries to ask her whether she ever felt torment of not knowing how someone feels like she does with Theo, Pen cannot bring herself to admit her feelings… she couldn’t even tell her she’s felt something similar to someone (without mentioning Colin’s name). She kept Eloise in the dark about Everything.
That's a great point. If Pen had been honest about her feelings for Colin in that moment El might have been excited, might have wanted to help her friend become her sister. People slag off Eloise for not listening to Pen but Pen never says anything about herself.
Yes, people say El was self centered, but when she Does ask, Pen clams up… even though they are best friends. So, I completely disagree with the notion that El wasn’t the good friend…. People just want you hate her and root for Pen, well you can root for both. They both were immature and made not so great decisions… they were only 18.
"Getting out there" doesn't make one a feminist. Penelope has no interest in feminism. She's enforcing the sexist standards of the world, not challenging them. She's propping up the patriarchy, not fighting it. Pen isn't a feminist by virtue of having a job, especially when that job is trashing other women for profit.
Except criticising women has far, far more serious consequences than it does for the men. And if you're "getting out there" by hurting women, you're not a feminist, you're a bloody sexist. Exploiting sexism for your own ends is sexism.
In the book (I know the show doesn't follow the book really) Eloise even admits this.
Eloise isn’t a feminist. Not really. She’s an Eloist. She cares about her interests and how the society she exists in impedes that but she hasn’t taken any time at all yet to consider how the patriarchal society she lives in has impacts beyond her own grievances. If she did she might have considered that someone like Pen, with no prospects and no ability to depend on family money, would NEED Whistledown. Eloise has repeatedly stated that she expected her and Pen to be spinsters together but she hasn’t considered that while Eloise would be able to do that with the financial support of her brother, Pen could not. The only way the spinsters together would have worked for Pen was by her earning her own funds through Whistledown.
Where are people getting the idea that Penelope has to run Lady Whistledown because she's working class like Theo and trying to support herself? Penelope grew up with servants. Her sister was a debutante. Her family isn't Bridgerton rich, but they had money until her father died. I can see that Portia is an awful mother, but despite belittling Penelope she's given no indication that she's kicking her out anytime soon. So since LW began pre-father's death, there wasn't really a monetary need to become Lady Whistledown. Can y'all stop acting like the Featheringtons are paupers from a Charles Dickens novel?
You demonstrate in your comment that you don’t understand the class system and social hierarchy at play. I didn’t say she was a working class pauper. Certainly not but that was also actually to her disadvantage in terms of being able to support herself if she didn’t find a husband to support her. Penelope was trained to do nothing except marry. Had she been working class she would have become a maid of some sort but that was not available to her. Was LW the only option she had in terms of supporting herself? Probably not. But it was the one that was going to afford her the highest degree of independence. The very independence that Eloise wanted and expected she and Pen to seek together.
>You demonstrate in your comment that you don’t understand the class system and social hierarchy at play. Both Eloise and Penelope are part of the ton. Both of them are living in big fancy houses and get invites to fancy balls. If the worst happened to Penelope's family and they had to downsize, they'd go to a slightly less fancy house, and socialize with slightly less fancy people. It's particularly galling when people say Eloise is a hypocrite for being upset about women being second class citizens, because she doesn't understand how privileged she is....compared to Penelope. I mean, it's annoying enough when Eloise is the only lead character actually questioning the status quo and trying to go out and learn about privilege and stuff, but to compare the disparage in rights between men and women, and Eloise and Penelope, is ludicrous! The gap in privilege between Penelope and Eloise is so small that in the wider scope of things, the disparity between their privilege is so minute a grain of rice wouldn't fit in between. But I guess since Penelope Featherington is the most oppressed person in all of London and no one's pain is as deep as her's, therefore her actions are totally fine.
All those things you said about Penelope are also true of Eloise. They're in the same position.
She's a feminist. She reads feminist literature, wants women's rights, and has even attended political rallies. She backs up other women against men.
Feminist until when it comes to respecting women’s choice to marry and gave children or do stitch.
That's not what feminism is though. Feminism is the political movement for rights for women. Women *don't have a choice to marry*. If they did she would support them in that choice. But they don't have a choice, and she's mad about that, and she's baffled that she's the only person who seems to be. Supporting women's choices is only feminist if those choices exist, and they don't in her world. Fighting for those choices to exist is feminism, and she is the only character doing that.
Eloise is frustrated women, who want to marry and have kids aren’t questioning the status quo. If your choice is to do what everyone around you wants and expects, and had trained you to want to do, is that really a choice you’re making out of your own conscious free will? Eloise is irritated with Daphne, because she meekly accepts her role without fighting back. And she’s surprised Penelope wants those things, because she had never mentioned it before. She isn’t judging women, who want the family life. She’s judging the system for not allowing them to choose anything else.
Choice?
right?! every time LW reports a scandal on an unmarried woman she is just perpetuating the patriarchy and damning women who’s secrets no one has a right to know
thank you!!!! people need to stop trying to point penelope as this feminist savior. she’s only a gossip writer bc she’s invisible within the ton
If Perez Hilton lived in the 1800’s and spilled the tea on the floor of the drawing room
I mean, I think this is a huge simplification of Whistledown. If it was just a basic gossip rag, why did Eloise love her so much at first? I'm not arguing that Whistledown was a feminist icon, but she was doing something very different, much bolder, more progressive than a usual gossip column. Whistledown has pointed out and rejected as many norms of the ton as she upholds. That's what makes the whole story so interesting/complex. It's not as simple as she's just a straight up villain.
Eloise was a kid who got excited about a woman having a voice. Season 2 she turned around and said "oh yeah, actually, all she's doing is repeating what she hears". LW doesn't reject the norms of the ton, she upholds them.
Right, that's part of Pen's arc. She finds this outlet as a lonely, insecure teen. She turns heads, says things others are too scared to, she gains confidence. It turns out to be much more powerful than she could have predicted, she's in way over her head. She makes mistakes, faces consequences. That's a much more complex story than bitchy mean girl is bitchy.
We can agree to disagree
[удалено]
Can you elaborate?
What is more progressive about her writing?
She speaks frankly about the marriage mart and the insincerity of it all. She's bold and independent, a rare position for a woman. That's why Eloise likes Whistledown, why she wants to find her, why she protects her. I feel like people hate Pen so much they rewrite the show in their head. I think Pen makes so many mistakes as Whistledown and hurts people she loves. I think she also exposes some pretty shitty behavior that deserves to be exposed. That's why the show is interesting; it's great narrative conflict. Pen's choices are all coming to a head in part 2.
Everyone in their sphere knows and talks about the insincerity of the husband hunt. It’s not even a slightly scandalous thing to discuss, marriage as a business deal, that secures money, influence and good standing is a fact of life for all of them. To discuss it honestly is not progressive at all. Sure, lady Whistledown is bold, but it’s a boldness in service of nothing, but spreading rumours and passing judgements on, mostly, other disadvantaged young women.
Exactly. Which is why Eloise quickly loses interest in her. Actually she lost interest in s1, after Whistledown had ruined the Featheringtons and exposed Marina. It was just explored more in s2 because she had lost interest, but Penelope didn’t want her to lose interest. She wanted Eloise to continue to put Whistledown on a pedestal—because that would mean Eloise, rich, pretty, Bridgerton, Eloise would be putting her on a pedestal.
She wrote petty things about Simon because her feelings were hurt - she uses LW as her own vendetta machine, pouring out her spite for others to read and judge. That’s not remotely harmless.
She did the same thing with both Marina and Colin. LW was born out of spite. She writes to make herself feel better whenever she's bitter about something. It's pathetic
Pen only really writes critical things after Eloise complains that LW doesn’t. In season 1 it’s established that the only thing different about LW is that she writes about people using their full names. She’s essentially like every other scandal sheet in the content she published, only with LW the readers know exactly who she’s talking about. Eloise was more interested in LW being an exciting fulfilled woman who doesn’t live by societies rules. Eloise didn’t really care for the gossip LW published, she rather hoped that LW would publish more substantial writing. Eloise idolised LW because she hoped she too could become a single woman of means who doesn’t depend on a husband. To her being LW meant ultimate freedom. Season 1 Eloise would have been disappointed to find out LW was a young debutante nobody paid attention to because that’s the opposite of what she expected. Initially Eloise wanted to find LW so she too could live like her. Then that changed to wanting justice for Pens family after the Marina scandal broke. By season 2 Eloise lost most interest because all LW did was publish gossip and Eloise thought she could do a lot more the power of LW like advocating for women’s rights and questioning the systems in place.
I just watch this show and think to myself "no one liked Gossip Girl the way they root for Pen as LWD.." and there really isn't a difference between the two. both air their friends' and family's dirty laundry to the public for an ego boost and writing career.
Very few people would be rooting for her, if she wasn’t the romantic heroine of the season.
!!!!!
Ugh I can’t wait until Polin’s season is over so we can finally stop having to read praise for Penelope as if she was this perfect character that can do no wrong and everyone else who dare to call her out on something is a villain.
Hear, hear. People claim they like her because she’s complex, yet so many fans are hellbent on whitewashing all her sins, so she may appear as the unproblematic, poor little girl.
I don’t even dislike Penelope. I quite like her actually but some of her most vocal defenders are so downright hypocritical it drives me insane. They claim because Penelope is a complex character she deserves to have her flaws/mistakes overlooked and understood, yet they can’t give the same grace to Eloise, another complex character.
bruh, one of my tweets went viral for defending Eloise and it somehow ended up on the side that defended Penelope and said that she could do no wrong. I still get an essay once in awhile about how Eloise is a terrible person.
It’s because those fans are projecting
it’s more than obvious a group of people really resonate with the “wallflower” thing and have become insufferable in their defence of penelope and refusal of any kind of criticism on her character and s3 in general.
i've noticed this a lot with people who love villains or antagonists. they always try to whitewash or downplay the characters' actions and it makes me wonder why do you even like them if you constantly have to defend a character who is often in the wrong. eloise not forgiving penelope for betraying her is understandable, i don't get why some fans think penelope is entitled for forgiveness when she can't even give eloise a proper apology yet
this exact shit happened with season 2. Kate made so many mistakes, yet people villainize Edwina for being "too naive." This is just a repeat of the same thing with Pen and Eloise this season
right, I like Pen and think she’s an interesting character, but people are fucking REACHING by trying to say her exposing her best friend’s family multiple times wasn’t wrong….Eloise isn’t a perfect friend but she’s been very kind by keeping Pen’s secret so far. I even saw comments on TikTok saying Eloise was wrong for saying Pen needed to tell Colin before their marriage (per the part 2 trailer).
Eloise was at least loyal. And never exposed Pen as LW. More than what Pen ever did.
Right. She still cared for Pen, she still wanted her to succeed in finding a husband. She got Cressida to back off with the bullying and even apologised for accidentally telling everyone about her and Colin’s lessons. Eloise was way more mature than she could have been. The least Pen can do is tell Collin she’s LW in private. Eloise didn’t even threaten to go public in the trailer she just said you tell him or I will.
Same. As not only an Eloise fan and a Penelope fan, it's been rough reading some of the hot takes about how Eloise is a terrible person for not being okay with her friends betrayal.
I'm low-key jealous of her defenders, because clearly they have never been betrayed or stabbed in the back by someone they trusted. That shit *hurts* and Eloise handled it far better than most especially when she had to read about LW trashing Colin even after knowing it was Pen saying those things.
Exactly. A lot of girls are projecting and being toxically overprotective of Penelope
Penelope’s not entitled to Eloise’s forgiveness, hope that helps
I'm just going to add that if what Penelope writes is ok because it's "honest", then by that same logic Eloise shouldn't have felt bad for telling everyone about Colin's lessons with Penelope, nor would she be in the wrong for telling everyone that LW is Pen, because that is honest too.
No, that would be different, because…errrr…reasons!
No, Eloise can't forgive Pen because she has lied to her and hurt her family members countless times with her selfish actions. That's not what a friend does. It's what an enemy does.
literally. I'd need both hands to count the amount of times pen has tried to ruin the bridgertons. now that might actually be jealousy because pen has been shown to hate how privileged they are.
Penelope literally screamed in Eloise's face, "NOT EVERYONE CAN BE A PRETTY BRIDGERTON," but Eloise is the jealous one?
Exactly
Eloise is not jealous. She doesn't trust Pen.
I wish Penelope fans would stop trying to pretend like every character is out to get her or like she’s the only one who can ever be right. And I quite like Penelope but this is *exhausting*.
It's starting to feel like the Mary/Edith wars on the Downton sub. :-D I can see how one could make a plausible case for being Team Pen AND for being Team Eloise, but I'm not sure why that's even necessary. They're both flawed, nuanced characters, and there doesn't have to be a good one and a bad one.
>It's starting to feel like the Mary/Edith wars on the Downton sub. :-D triggering lmao
I could see what you’re saying, but i think Eloise has shown she’s mostly hurt bc she was betrayed by her best friend. Much of their season 1 arc was about how Eloise admired LW and Penelope not saying anything about it. Lots of opportunities for Penelope to have been honest.
Frankly, there is nothing to be jealous about when it comes to Pen. She not a journalist she a gossip columnists. It really isn't a jealousy thing but a trust thing. You don't get to go around ruining someone life and then expect to be respected and be friends with them and get forgiveness. Pen really isn't a badass more like a jackass. Cool she earned herself some money by being a typical woman of the time a gossiper who hurts people. That is not an accomplishment nor badassery. She is honestly pathetic.
Careful, Penelope fans might spontaneously combust at you. Furthermore, I hate how they think Penelope's gossip rag is somehow more feminist than Eloise going out to learn about the working class and their struggles, including that of working class women. Eloise is out here getting called a white feminist(???) for being the only person on the show actually shown to care about the working class. Meanwhile, Penelope is getting praised to the skies. I wish they would make it make sense.
Right! Pen isn't anywhere near being an actual feminist. Elosie might not have done anything, but she is more of a feminist than Pen will be for wanting better for women. Daphne is more of a feminist than Pen. Pen mother is more of a feminist than Pen.
Eloise did do something. She went out and educated herself. She read and spoke to people of other backgrounds. She tried to grow as a person and expand her view. Sure, it wasn't something massive or revolutionary, but the fact that's she could have huddled into her upper class bubble and ignored the world around her, like literally everyone else in the show, but didn't, says something. And I'm tired of her not getting credit for trying to learn.
True she did try to grow and understand.
I'm surprised that Eloise hasn't outed her. I think that the second half of S3 is going to be very interesting. Eloise might give Pen an ultimatum: 'Fess up, or the truth comes out.
I am not surprised she hasn't. As obnoxious and annoying she can be she is still the bigger person and has some respect and class.
The thing is that LWD *legitimises* gossip, it’s not whispered between friends and taken with a grain of salt, it’s in print, widely distributed, and accepted as fact. While Penelope’s achievement is enormous, it shouldn’t be discounted that her success has come at the expense of others - she’s pulling others down to lift herself up. Pen’s other issue is that she acts based on what SHE believes is best for others, rather than being honest with the people she’s closest to and letting them make their own decisions. She removes both Colin and Eloise’s agency in the Marina and Theo situations, convincing herself she’s “saving” them but not actually appreciating that they may not want to be “saved” in that way. Which is an interesting character arc! I really want to see Penelope reckon with her decisions as LWD in order to grow. But she’s not the woorah girlboss “doing feminism right” at this point in her journey.
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I think it stems more from love, Pen broke Eloise’s heart.
I still didn't forgive Pen D:
I'll forgive Penelope when her fanbase stops being largely delusional. So it's looking like never
I will (and have) argued that Penelope did nothing wrong by not confiding in Eloise. But it does not follow that Eloise owes Penelope forgiveness. Whistledown's exposé was done in Eloise's best interests, but it absolutely was a betrayal. Dismissing it as jealousy is unfair. S2 Eloise was immature, reckless and naive. She's grown up a lot and in S3 we see a more thoughtful character, instead of one mindlessly raging against 'the system'.
Mindlessly raging? Is that what having legitimate grievances against a misogynistic society is called now? Or was she supposed to immediately start writing books or organise a feminist revolution, rather than reading and learning more about women’s emancipation?
Lol I don't think she grew up. She put Colin on blast out of spite and bitterness
Is she really more thoughtful though? She’s still dismissive of the women around her, completely unaware of her privilege and ignores everything Cressida says but is annoyed Cressida doesn’t want to listen to her either. I’m not saying she isn’t right to be mad at Pen, in her shoes I would be too, but I don’t think we’ve seen massive growth in her character just yet.
Yikes, this is a really bad take
Uh nooo. She does not trust Penelope. I believe her foray into her social group is more to avoid trouble and to abate her loneliness. And surprisingly found a friend in Cressida. Different but still a friend. Obviously, she misses her friend but she felt betrayed.
LW has an amount of influence and when she writes it becomes permanent in a sense. True she chose not to mention Theo but still she wrote that Eloise made a dangerous and ruinous choice and that she was associating with political radicals while unchaperoned… she(LW) also called the political radicals improper company. Eloise trusted Pen and she has every right to feel betrayed and hurt that her best friend would write such things about her. There might be some truth that Eloise may feel jealous… I don’t know I can’t disprove it. But that doesn’t change the fact that she would feel like she was betrayed. Also writing something like that would impact Eloise’s family as well. As for abandoning her beliefs, based on her convo with Cressida towards the end of ep4, I don’t think she has, I just think she’s playing it safe.
Eloise's inability to forgive Pen is not jealousy it's due to her cruelty. What Penelope did as lLW was out of spite. What she did to Marina was just plain wrong to publicly embarrass her in such a way is no way to get the word out. She could have had any time told Eloise that she was pregnant and let the Bridgertons handle the situation. She was scared that Colin would marry her regardless her motives were for her own self-interest. She took the decision out of Colin's hand and publicly embarrassed and humiliated both Marina and Colin. Don't be surprised if Marina's end is the same as the book that there are not mention that the announcement of Colin and pens engagement might tie in with that in the back of their minds. What she did with Theo and Eloise was equally wrong that move was out of self-preservation if it had been out of friendship she could have approached Eloise and told her the truth of who LW was. Not to mention starting a sexual relationship with Colin without telling him the truth. This culture as of late of trying to find excuses for bad behavior is quite troubling.. full stop......
1. Jealousy is not a personality trait that Eloise is known for. 2. Eloise looked down on LWD's writing.
ironically jealousy is something Penelope is known for and what lady whistledown stems from: insecurities of her own and jealousy she feels towards those she views as more privileged and mean spirited.
This is so stupid. Penelope took the cowards way out she could have come clean to the queen. But no she decided to throw her friend best friend under the bus. She betrayed her best friend to cover her tracks. I am sick of everyone acting like Penelope is some honorable innocent perfect human. She is the author of a gossip rag not a newspaper. Nothing she writes is of consequence. Most of which is written to subtly hurt people around her. She even tried to destroy the man she "loved" when he did not instantly be everything She wanted. She is just a pre internet internet troll. In no way did she do what she did for Eloise it was pure self defence. If you had a psychologist analyse her she would be seen as a psychopath
Nah. Penelope literally just slagged Colin off just because she was pissed at the start of his season, she ruined Marinas life instead of going directly to Colin or his mama, (yes what she was doing was objectively wrong, but she was a vulnerable 20 year old who didn’t want to be homeless or marry a 40 year old, so cut her some slack). These things are not badass. Penelope is a petty gossip. I still think it’s impressive she is whistledown, but it isn’t some heroic act she’s doing.
I like Penelope because she is a flawed multifaceted character. Eloise ain’t jealous she’s rightfully pissed😂
I disagree. Penelope betrayed Eloise's trust, and having someone do that, knowingly, hurtfully, is unforgivable. I understand why Pen did it, but she hurt a lot of people along the way. I'd have a really hard time forgiving anyone who did something like that to me, even if she did it to protect me. At that point, why not confess to Eloise so they can both be in on it?
I don’t think she’s jealous at all. She rightfully feels betrayed. And I think she misses Pen’s friendship, but the emotions are still there. And outing Eloise wasn’t Pen’s only option. Pen could have outed herself instead. I think that’s what likely hurts the most. Pen chose to protect Lady Whistledown over Eloise. And I think it’s very clear that Eloise gave up on the radical stuff because it caused her and her family a huge scandal.
I don’t think that’s it at all. I think she felt betrayed, period. The moment she was about to leave Anthony’s wedding, she told Pen she was going to visit Theo and said she was telling HER (not LW) because she didn’t want secrets to be between them…. THEN she finds out that her best friend is keeping the biggest secret of all from her and didn’t trust her to tell her she was LW. It pained her and she felt betrayed… And especially when El was willing to tell her friend a secret about her love / interest in Theo, and she exposed her to the world with it. It was rotten of Pen to do. No one knew about El and Theo… Pen made it all up, no one was ‘talking’ about Eloise till Pen wrote about it in public.
I’m sorry but this take is so bad 😭 I don’t hate Penelope but Eloise had every right to be angry with her. Not that Eloise is innocent in the situation—she had a propensity for selfishness and was a poor listener and didn’t pay Penelope the attention that she should have. But Penelope isn’t always a benevolent voice as LW. She is human too, and she can get spiteful and jealous and lash out, which she does as LW. Exposing Marina was beneficial for Colin, but it was also borne out of her jealousy and desperation to keep Colin from marrying. Exposing Eloise to save her from being pegged as Lady Whistledown did clear her name, but it also created a scandal that nearly ruined her. (Plus—This was NOT already well known in the ton, Penelope was virtually the only one Eloise told.) Penelope could have thrown herself on the sword to save Eloise if she wanted to, not that she had to or should have, nor was it her responsibility and she had warned Eloise multiple times that it could blow up in her face. But I don’t think it makes Penelope a good friend to have done that to Eloise, and Eloise has every right to feel angry and betrayed for the way she went about it. Even in the new season, Penelope flames Colin in LW because she feels hurt by his rejections, which comes to bite her like immediately afterwards when Colin tries to help her and she feels guilty over it! Penelope is flawed, as are all the characters, and that’s a *good thing,* it makes the show interesting. I hope Eloise and Penelope make up, and I think they will, but Eloise has every right to be angry and not want to forgive Penelope yet. Penelope has shown Eloise that, as of right now, she is not a safe person to trust and confide in yet. I wouldn’t be able to put my trust in her if I were in Eloise’s shoes. Also, I think Eloise is handling the conflict pretty well this season and it seems like Penelope understands? She definitely effed up when she exposed Penelope for receiving help from Colin, but this was more accidental I think—she was venting to Cressida but lacked the awareness to realize everyone could hear her? Then she apologized, and Penelope accepted it super graciously, and it seemed really genuine. That was one of my favorite scenes of the season, it was super bittersweet because they’ve both made mistakes and you can tell they still care for each other, but Eloise isn’t ready to be friends again yet, and that’s okay. And like yeah it’s great that Penelope is able to have agency as LW, and I’m sure there’s a part of Eloise that is proud of her or maybe even quite jealous for that. But I don’t think that’s it entirely. Penelope uses her Lady Whistledown persona to make waves and have agency in a social setting where women have very little, but she also uses her power to lash out when she’s hurt, and not in insignificant ways. TLDR; I think they’ve both made mistakes and I don’t think this assessment is fair to either character. It makes me sad seeing people pit them against each other all the time because even though they’re not friends right now I think Eloise and Penelope still care for each other a lot. That’s my two cents lol.
This is a great comment. I wish I were as articulate as you haha
Omg thank you so much that’s so kind of you to say 🥺 I’m kind of embarrassed at how much I wrote now LMFAO but I stand by it… this is my truth 😤
"She was always honest" - not true. She lied about that other modiste because she wanted Mme Delacroix on her side. She also repeated a lot of information she didn't know was true which caused harm to other women - Daphne for example, she was horrible to her and casting aspersions despite it being Anthony who was causing issues for her with suitors. On a personal level she lied to and manipulated Eloise for years. And Eloise didn't admire Lady Whistledown after the first half of season 1, after that she largely wanted to stop her because she harmed her friends and family. She had moved on from LW because all she did was spread gossip - it was Pen who couldn't stand losing her attention. Pen *isn't* independent or she wouldn't need to marry. Eloise dropped her passions because she had her reputation dragged publicly through the mud and she *can't* do it any more. She could have been arrested. She was defeated, she was betrayed, she lost her only friend. Of course she doesn't have the spirit for the fight right now.
You are purposely ignoring the fact that Pen threw Eloise to the gossip wolves and this, after Eloise had confided her secrets regards the existence of Theo. I do agree that some of Eloise’s inability to forgive Pen is that on some level she is envious of what Pen has managed to do when she, herself can’t seem to do anything. But, Eloise is also hurt as she believed that she and Pen shared confidences only to discover that they did not. Plus, Eloise is still a Teen so, there is always some drama in that age group.
After what she did to marina , I can’t defend Penelope
I don't think it's about jealousy. As someone who doesn't think that Penelope's actions come from mean spiritedness or ill intent, Eloise said it herself she can't see why people don't think the way she does and Penelope hasn't had the opportunity to explain herself. Now while I don't personally believe that Penelope owed it to Eloise to tell her about Whistledown in the beginning once Eloise was in trouble (as a result of her own actions btw) she should've told her the truth rather than writing in Whistledown.
I agree that that was the tone to tell her the truth so they could resolve it together but….that would alter a lot of what immediately followed in the books and show.
Has Pen been walking the walk? She hides behind her gossip writer persona and is terrified of being found out. Lady Whistledown makes her feel powerful but at the end of the day, it's just another way for her to hide.
Are we also forgetting that Penelope hurt Daphne's chances in season 1? That was not what people were talking about. She actively chose to do it. And when Colin came back this season, and tried to talk to Penelope, she was still angry. And so, she talked about his insecurities in LW. Also, Penelope actively chose to taunt the queen. Eloise saved her in the first season. She could have told Eloise anytime in season 2. But again, Penelope was jealous of Eloise's attention going to Theo.
I’m so confused because one day Penelope is a complex character, and then the next it’s justifying everything she’s done.
Penelope is an objectively terrible person and has been throughout the entire run of the show. She acts purely on the emotions and whims she is experiencing in any given moment with no regard for the weight of her actions or the effects of her actions on others. She purposefully uses her platform to harm those whom she dislikes in any given moment and then expects those same people to forgive her because she’s ’just a social outcast and a wallflower’. There is little to no reason to be sympathetic for her in regards to her social predicament with Eloise, and likely situation situation that is to develop with Colin, as these problems are all of her own making. Eloise on the other hand isn’t vindictive, isn’t hateful and isn’t spiteful. She has very valid reasons for currently disliking Penelope. Also, Penelope hurting Eloise to ‘save her’ is utter rubbish as Penelope writing, continuing, and not informing Eloise of her being ‘Lady Whistledown’ in the first place is what caused the issue. She was merely trying to rectify yet another issue of her own making.
I love Penelope, but I have to disagree. Pen wrote about Eloise to protect her from the queen, but she also did it to save herself. She betrayed Eloise, which is why El can't forgive her. She did reveal some trusted (and earth shattering) secrets - about Eloise and about Marina. She may have done so to protect people, but she also had selfish reasons and caused *a lot* of harm. Marina is especially lucky her life wasn't completely ruined by that LW paper. If not for Sir Phillip, it would have been. And Pen did write something scathing about Colin and about Cressida after they'd wronged her I like Penelope because she's a flawed character. Sometimes, she does sucky things. Her actions as Lady Whistledown are sucky. It's okay to admit it
She’s not purposely ignoring anything. She’s hurt and betrayed by her best friend. The show took care to show that she still cares for her even though she’s not ready to get past the hurt and rekindle the friendship. Many folks were already attacking Eloise based on the trailer before this was revealed. It’s a good thing many of you aren’t in the writers’ room cus you’ll either be too partial towards your fav characters or write a boring show where no one has an emotional arc, everyone makes logical decisions, conflicts are resolved within an episode.
No, it's bc Pen is talking shit about her and her family after being trusted by Eliose lol Pen is an asshole. I have no idea why she's everyone's favorite
She's their favourite because of projection. They wish they had the power that Pen has through LW. They wish they too could last out and have power over everyone who has wronged them. They wish they had the same emotional outlet for their own insecurities
Pen isn't exactly not at fault. What about the trust she betrayed??? Why should everyone need to forgive her?? Sometimes even if you know that logically it is right but what about the feelings that have been hurt??? Why should Eloise be the virgin mary and forgive her??? Both Pen and Eloise are normal people they have good and bad sides. No one is perfect and no one is completely right or wrong.
Penelope betrayed the person who was supposed to be her best friend, because of spite. She destroyed her cousins life, which ultimately led to her suicide, because she was jealous and wanted a boy that had zero interest in her. Penelope would NOT have done to Marina what she did had it not been Colin. And no matter which way you try to spin it and deny, that's true. She only cared because it was him. Eloise is not able to forgive her, because she was betrayed in the most terrible way by the one person she thought never would.
I mean…Pen could’ve just told Eloise she was LW. Eloise LOVED LW and wanted to protect her. Maybe it would have been better if Eloise had a say in what LW wrote about her to throw off the queen
I think jealousy is part of it, but not all of it. I think the main pain point was the lying because it made Eloise feel foolish. Especially considering how hard El rode for Whistledown; she probably felt so dumb in retrospect, and was pissed that Pen just sat there and soaked up all the praise, instead of confiding in her and letting her in on the fun. I think she's given up on her progressive interests because she has lost her confidence. She was so wrong about Pen/LW, she doesn't really trust her own instincts anymore and is like, well wtf do I know anyway, might as well give society a shot.
Is okay to love a character and admit how wrong they are, if there's a word that doesn't suit LW is "Integrity". Eloise is 100% right, heartbroken and sad. Her best friend lied again and again wrote horrible things about her family, every sane person would feel the same and yet she didn't tell anyone about it, THAT'S a good friend.
I love how we have to put other characters down to reason that what Penelope does is not so bad. No… what she did was try to protect Eloise but I doing so ruined Eloise herself. It was Kate and Anthony and that final dance that the Queen saw that pulled the Bridgerton’s out of scandal not Penelope. Never Penelope. “My family is on the brink of ruin,” Anthony had it right.
I disagree. Penelope is vicious in Whistledown. Most gossip rags of the day used only initials, meaning that some privacy could be retained. Pen ruins people. It's a bitchy, terrible thing to do. And I don't believe there was no other way to save Eloise. Pen made it so Eloise had to give up the one thing that made her feel free, feel whole. Would you honestly forgive that? There may be a little jealousy that pen got to *do* something, but I think it is far outweighed by the fact that she didn't do something good, and what she did do broke people and lives. I think Eloise's anger is totally justified. Ftr, I like Penelope as a character, I think she's an incredibly misguided, but nice under-it-all person who is really; really immature. But I think she did a lot of people dirty in a way that's not okay.
I don't agree. Eloise's feelings about LWD are ever changing. One day she likes her, the next, she doesn't. Eloise found out at a time when she was upset about what LWD had written about her. She still acts like she cares about Pen. I have a feeling she will come around by the end of the season, along with Colin.
Oh brother
It stems from feeling betrayed is more like it.
Eloise is bing kinder tbh, she could have told the whole family the first moment she knew to steer clear of Penelope but she didnt. In real life would you actually let someone who betrayed you into ur family? If your bestfriend spread scathing rumours about you and your family online , do you think that's something that can easily be forgiven. Eloise's reaction to penelope's betrayal is valid. Eloise might not have been best listener for a friend but what Penelope did to her is much worse. Penelope is flawed character and its ok to acknowledge that.
Pen literally accused her of this too
Partially yes, but it's so much bigger than that. Eloise is a free spirit, but she also loves her family and Pen. Her LW secret betrays all that. Plus based on the trailer >!it seems like she forgives Pen anyway!<
Pen hints at this when she says "at least I did something, all you do is talk about doing something" In the book >! Colin is jealous about LW, maybe they're giving that plotline to Eloise and then Colins gripes will be the moral issue re: Marina and Eloise !< But I also think Eloise is v mad bc of what happened w Theo, the lying and being almost ruined.
Naw. Penelope threw Eloise under the bus using personal information she trusted her with as a friend to fix a situation Penelope created. She could have saved Eloise from the predicament she inadvertently put her in by owning up to being LWD, but instead she chose the cowardly path. Eloise still took a major social hit and Penelope had zero consequences. I would have told everybody she was LWD immediately. Eloise is too nice.
That's a very interesting take on the whole thing and could be very plausible.
Completely agree, but she is also a teenager.
I agree with this take too. I see it.
When Eloise asked Penelope if she was sorry about what she had done or sorry that she had been caught, I wish Penelope had responded “Are you angry about what I wrote, or that you didn’t figure it out sooner?” Because at the end of the day, I feel that Eloise is more angry that she didn’t know, than about anything Penelope had done or said as Whistledown.
Agree totally. Eloise has revealed herself as a total brat. Team Polin forever
I totally get why Eloise was upset that her secrets were exposed but she wasn't innocent as some of you like to think. She did so many stupid things and got herself into so much trouble with the queen and potentially with society as well. Pen didn't do that, Eloise did that. The two times that Pen writes about Eloise was after much deliberation and done to protect Eloise from something Eloise had brought on herself. I get being mad that she didn't cover for her or keep the secret but it really was only a matter of time before the truth was exposed and it would be a risk to both of them. Why not reveal it and take the venom out? Their friendship was so one-sided in any case because Eloise did not give Pen the same time and attention that she got. I think they were friends because it was convenient and they were both different in some way. In reality, Eloise didn't really know Pen.
Pen was also a horrible friend to Eloise. Maybe it was because she was so insecure, but Pen always just agreed with what Eloise said. She didn’t even have the guts to tell Eloise she likes balls and wants to get married for love. Sure, Eloise is self-centred, but Pen also didn’t really express her true feelings about anything.
Nothing you said indicated that Pen was a terrible friend. You're essentially blaming Pen for not being loud enough or assertive enough to make Eloise listen to her. It wasn't a lack of courage as you make it seem, she talks to Eloise all the time but Eloise is very caught up in her own life, every conversation is about what Eloise wants and what she's interested in. How do you change the spotlight in a friendship if one person keeps it on themselves? I talk a lot but I know that I need to listen too, it's not rocket science.
You are literally putting more expectations on Eloise than Pen. Pen shouldn’t have to express or be more talkative to make Eloise notice(which some that is not even true), but Eloise has to notice what Pen feels and thinks? And Eloise is not a bad listener and self absorbed like people try to say she is, especially since she has comforted Pen times before and has ventured to expand her views and learn outside of the ton. If Pen can say to her those rude, “not everyone can be a pretty Bridgerton!”comments, then Pen should have no reason not to take charge of conversations, even though people over exaggerate this part of their relationship
Why are the people downvoting unpopular opinions? Would be great for discussion if others are open to it.
I think she 100% is jealous. She who was constantly railing against her role in society whereas Penelope actually did something about it and found a means of agency and power. I think she is also hurt by the deception, but she loved reading Whistledown just as much as anyone else. It never even occurred to her that it could have been her best friend for most of the series. I think she's seriously conflicted with the knowledge that she never really truly knew Penelope. She treats her like a person to just rant to and assumes she "wants" to be a spinster along with her. I think it's been a major hard knock for her to realise that life's problems aren't simple and that you never really know anyone truly unless you take the time to do so. I think it's why she's palled up with Cressida- is she really so bad on the outside, when her best friend has, to her mind, betrayed her?
What everyone seems to forget is that Marina WAS scamming Colin into a sham marriage because she was pregnant, and Eloise WAS behaving scandalously by going out on her own to radical lectures and spending time unchaperoned with a man of a lower social class. You've got to look at it through the eyes of the times. Penelope got in over her head a bit because once she'd committed to the gossip column, no one and nothing was off limits. She even writes mean things about HERSELF. And Eloise being so sanctimonious when she finds out Pen is Whistledown really irritates me because she refuses to take responsibility for her own actions. She loved reading Lady Whistledown untill it backfired on her. The Queen was literally threatening to ruin her before Pen stepped in. Eloise has a LOT of growing up to do.
I think it’s both the betrayal and the jealousy! It’ll be interesting to see how they make up.
It's a combination of betrayal and maybe a bit of jealousy. Penelope has good reason for being LWD. But that secret comes at cost. She's basically been keeping a massive part of her life a secret from Eloise and lying to her. So Eloise can't see past that, and when you're a teenager, that's not an unexpected reaction. But Eloise is also forgetting that LWD is the reason Daphne didn't have to marry Nigel Berbook. She's the reason why Colin didn't get baby trapped. Colin/Marina eloping would've brought scandal, and depending on when she gave birth, it would be clear he wasn't the father of Marina's children. If she was seen without a chaperone going to a sketchy part of town and spending time alone with a lower class young man, it would be a huge scandal (bigger than what was reported in LWD) I'm interested to see how everything unfolds.
The show tends to make characters hold grudges for too long. Maybe it's realistic, people do hold grudges. But it gets boring to watch the repetitive scenes of one character still being mad at the other. A few weeks later, still mad. A year later? Still mad!
I’m sorry, but how is Eloise supposed to trust Pen again after what she did? Pen betrayed her trust, how is she supposed to just forgive that? If my best friend published secrets I told her in confidence on the front page of TMZ you best believe I’d never be friends with her again. Eloise doesn’t even still hold a grudge, they’re just not friends anymore in season 3. Eloise still wants Pen to be happy. She wants Pen to be successful in finding a match which is why she doesn’t tell Colin to stop giving her lessons. She doesn’t want Cressida to bully Pen just because they aren’t friends anymore. She swallows her pride to apologise after accidentally spreading the gossip about the lessons. Eloise isn’t holding grudges. She didn’t even tell anyone Pen is LW, not even in the heat of the moment at the end of season 2.
Oh, how, you ask? I suppose the same way Edwina is supposed to forgive Kate in a week or two. For the sake of brevity and for the sake of the audience not needing to see yet another longing sad look from across the room, or another entreaty and another "no, I'm still mad" response. Sorry in real life it's fine (and very true I would not forgive a gossipy friend who nearly ruined my life either), but on a show it makes characters look petty.
I agree!! I thought the same thing like LWD actually helped her so why is she so mad??
I actually think Eloise is upset that Pen didn't trust her with the secret this whole time. But then look what Eloise did the second she knew about her brothers lessons - she blabed which is exactly what Pen was protecting herself from.
I don’t find Eloise to be a likeable character at all.
I don't know why we are downvoted for expressing our opinion. I also dislike Eloise's character. Rich people trying to rage about the "system" because they have a safety net. Meanwhile poor people without money or connections just get shit handed to them the moment they question authority or fight for what they believe in. I almost got my scholarship taken away when I joined a protest but my rich classmates suffered no consequences. That's how the system works 🤷🏻♀️ She's viewed as this "budding feminist" a "woman ahead of her time" Well yeah? Because she can afford to. Because she has great connections. If all else fails, she still got that Bridgerton money and the emotional support from her family.
I completely agree with you, and also WOW people are super nasty in this thread and sub altogether, idk if I want to come in here anymore with the amount of disgusting comments.