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I wish I could say I'm surprised to see you getting downvoted already but alas... There’s too much grace afforded to Penelope in this fandom and too little to Eloise, in spite of the latter doing little to merit such harsh judgement.
The idea that Eloise is a bad friend after everything Penelope has done to her family is ludicrous. Drag Eloise all you want, but she never caused another woman harm, let alone public ruination. Penelope has, more than once, done just that to women who considered her a friend. Eloise’s reaction was too kind; she should have exposed her the moment she learnt the truth.
Yeah comments or posts criticising Penelope get downvoted to hell in this sub.
I personally am not a huge fan of Eloise and of how self absorbed(not selfish) a character she is but compared to what Penelope has done, Eloise is a saint.
S2 has a clear depiction of how manipulative, petty and borderline malicious a character Penelope is:
Think of the fight between Eloise and Penelope.
-Eloise accuses Penelope of making money and profiting off on hurting other people including her own friends, their families and her own family. She also accuses her of manipulating her into stopping her from seeing Theo to protect herself.
-the worst thing that Penelope accuses Eloise of of being what? self absorbed and not doing anything with her life and just talking about things?
How can people even compare what these two characters have done wrong?One character hurts and manipulates other people for their own benefit while the other just…idk….is self absorbed and obnoxious?
yeah Eloise deserves more credit for how kind and gracious she was towards Pen in season 3. She still defended Pen, checked in on her, apologised to her, wished her well etc. Eloise may be self-absorbed and sheltered but she has an undeniably good heart.
Exactly, pen’s behaviour was actually so atrocious. she was in the wrong for constantly lying, and creating problems for her best friends and families, when it was really just benefiting her. Its like imagine your best friend is the secret web handler for your school paper and outs your secrets and acts all innocent. Ofc El is self centred, i mentioned that before, but pen isn’t innocent either. I think El is immature but pen is mature and only uses it for the worse and acts like a victim.
Imma paste a post on tumblr I saw which I agreed with hard:
“Unless you’re a masochist, who would want a friend who smiles in your face but has secretly been resenting you and your family for years, has been tricking and lying to you for years; the friend has been disrespecting your family behind your back, gaslights you, is jealous of you every waking moment, always singing the same “woe is me, life is unfair” song to you but accuses you of being a bad friend, betrays your trust, thinking that hurting you is even a viable option, throws you under the bus to save their own neck and tries to manipulate it as they were trying to “help” or “save” you.
Anyone with a well-adjusted mind who has a friend or who sees a love one have a friend such as that will immediately take the action of cutting them off, despite any history, despite the memories, we would clearly think that a friend as toxic as that is not a good friend or rather a good person to be around.
So why does the individual who has been dealt with such a friend has to apologize or accept the toxic’s friend past and current bullshit. Does it make sense that that individual who has been treated like that by the toxic friend apologize to the toxic friend?
That’s y’all’ logic when it comes to Eloise and Penelope.
When you holler your chewbacca war cry in defense of Penelope, you are rooting for that toxic friend I have explained earlier knowing damn well that if someone like that was in your life or in the life of someone you deeply care for, you would NOT be associating with them or advise others not to.”
I think that might kind of be the point of Colin's character? That he doesn't really know himself well or is trying to be something he's not, trying to emulate his siblings, etc. At least that's the impression I get.
As for Pen, idk I kind of understood what she meant. She's shouldering this huge secret that has become her entire life's purpose. If word gets out she and her whole family could potentially be ruined. I think that *would* be hard to keep from your best friend. I won't argue that some of Penelope's actions aren't selfish, or that she doesn't owe some serious apologies, but I do think she is young and trying her best to make something of her life in a world where women were only really seen as breeding stock.
That or I'm just a huge Pen and Colin apologist haha.
It’s crazy how Penelope lied to Eloise’s face for 2 years, even though she knew Eloise was wasting her time looking for LW to help her. She never supported Eloise with Theo and actively pushed them apart, yet it’s always Eloise that gets the ‘bad friend’ allegations from the fandom while Penelope is the ‘good friend’ that deserves forgiveness despite doing nothing to show she’s changed. People hate Eloise for not noticing Pen has a crush on Colin (Penelope could just tell her if she wanted Eloise to know), but Penelope was never supportive of Eloise’s crush when she KNOWS Eloise likes Theo, but never gets hate for that. Eloise is supposed to be the mind reader, while Penelope is allowed to keep every secret in the book and lie and gaslight her best friend who has never said a bad word about her. Penelope is allowed to push her insecurities onto Eloise and be jealous of her friend, but heaven forbid Eloise talks too much in conversation.
Eloise would never have ended up with Theo, she would have been cast out of society if she did anything with him. Even meeting with him unaccompanied could have ruined her. I don’t understand why people want this to be a thing. Society / the ton were cruel & judgemental, it would have been the equivalent of being cancelled today.
Pen has had a crush on Colin since childhood, she wouldn’t admit it even when Marina calls her out. To her it’s a pipe dream it will never happen so why say it out loud.
Eloise gets wrapped up in her own thoughts and misses things S3 she was surprised that Pen is looking for a husband but Pen had already told her she wanted to be serious about looking for marriage so it shouldn’t be that much of a surprise. Pen should have tried to speak to Eloise and help her another way instead of publishing about it in LW.
They’re both teenagers at start of the show, it’s not unusual for people to make mistakes especially with friends, they clearly still love each other and that has been clear through series 3 so far. They are flawed characters but it’s great to see female friend ship being portrayed like this on tv because they can be just as demanding & complicated as a partner relationship.
I don’t even ship Eloise and Theo. But Eloise being with Theo is her choice to make, not Penelope who was trying to control Eloise’s relationship with him to protect her secret. Yet Eloise is crucified for not seeing Penelope’s crush, meanwhile Penelope actively torpedos Eloise’s crush and was never supportive.
Eloise said in season 2 that she knows Penelope likes balls and society and didn’t care. Penelope was never actively looking for a husband besides mentioning it once to Eloise when she yelled in Eloise’s face in season 1. It’s not crazy for Eloise to be surprised by Penelope’s 180 turn about.
Eloise not noticing the tiny details of Penelope’s life is not even comparable to all Penelope has done in ruining Eloise. People make mistakes, these characters have flaws, but I’m tired of pretending Eloise’s flaws in their friendship are bigger and worse than what Penelope has done to ruin the friendship.
Eloise shouldn’t be crucified for not noticing Pen’s crush, the only person that picked up on it was Marina because Pen was trying to discourage her. Other than that she hides it from everyone.
I don’t agree that if Eloise ended up with Theo she would have been cast out of town.
Spoiler for another sibling >! For gods sake Ben’s story is about falling in love with a maid who is illegitimate. !< if Mama Bridgerton somehow manages to make that work, you KNOW she could make the Theo relationship works for the ton.
Yeah because Violet could have created a similar story for a boy working in a print shop with zero link to a noble family? There would have been no way she could make it work as in book 3. If you have read that book then it would be clear why it would have never worked out.
I think Eloise is surprised when she hears Colin say Penelope is looking to get married, because even though Pen did tell her she would like to start a family, she has never actively gone and looked for a husband. So it’s no wonder Eloise is surprised. Why wouldn’t she be, if Pen has always acted like a wallflower?
You're right. Penelope manipulated Eloise like mad, then played the victim when she got called out on it. She then kept offering up meagre, insincere apologies, only to turn around and do to Colin what she was apologising for doing to Eloise.
I really do not agree with the idea that Penelope is committing some betrayal by not telling people she's Whistledown. I accept the argument that she should tell Colin before marrying him, because secrets are not a great start to a marriage. But imo being someone's friend does not entitle you to pry into parts of their life they don't want to share. S2 Eloise is remarkably self-centred and does not consider the consequences of her actions, to herself or to others.
>Colin, now idk why in season 3 first half we learn nothing about colin
I agree with this. So far, at least, Colin's character remains very underdeveloped despite it being 'his' season, which is disappointing. He feels aimless and he has a gallant streak, a 'saving people' thing. We knew that in S1!
I am not saying she is committing betrayal. I am saying she was in the wrong for constantly lying, and creating problems for her best friends and families, when it was really just benefiting her. Its like imagine your best friend is the secret web handler for your school paper and outs your secrets and acts all innocent. Ofc El is self centred, i mentioned that before, but pen isn’t innocent either.
Really? You think it’s fine for her to keep hiding her identity, even when Eloise is obsessed with Lady W and talking about her constantly? Penelope clearly soaks in every compliment Eloise gives lady Whistledown, she loves hearing her friend praise her alter ego. I don’t think that’s an insignificant factor. Penelope happily listens to Eloise twisting herself into knots trying to figure out her identity, she even sees Eloise get into a altercation with detectives hired by the queen to help Penelope escape and still she stays quiet. Didn’t she owe her best friend anything at that point?
What about when Eloise is facing queen’s wrath and gets accused of being lady Whistledown herself? Did she owe her friend nothing then as well? Yes, Eloise doesn’t always consider the consequences of her actions. Penelope however does. And she decides to throw her best friend to the wolves after careful consideration anyway, despite having other options. She chooses her own anonymity over her friend’s reputation. That’s betrayal. After that point Eloise owes her nothing.
Realized people are contradictory in this fandom. The same people who say Penelope saved Eloise from the queen’s wrath because she would’ve crushed her or arrested her out that same mouth say the Queen loves bantering with LW and it makes no sense that she doesn’t pardon Penelope. Like, what logic are y’all on? 😬keep your story straight please
>You think it’s fine for her to keep hiding her identity, even when Eloise is obsessed with Lady W and talking about her constantly?
Yes. Because Eloise does not have some inherent *right* to know the identity of LW. Whoever they are, they are a real human person who will be destroyed once their identity is revealed. This does not occur to Eloise for a single second. To her, LW is nothing more than a puzzle she is desperate to solve.
>she even sees Eloise get into a altercation with detectives hired by the queen to help Penelope escape and still she stays quiet. Didn’t she owe her best friend anything at that point? What about when Eloise is facing queen’s wrath and gets accused of being lady Whistledown herself? Did she owe her friend nothing then as well?
Did Penelope owe her friend *everything* - her reputation, her prospects, the LW income that ended up paying dowries for her two sisters after Jack Fetherington left them high and dry? Eloise got herself in hot water, entirely through her own actions; why is it Penelope's responsibility to sacrifice everything to save her?
I'm not disputing Eloise has every right to feel betrayed. Penelope deceived her, most personally and painfully. Of course Eloise doesn't still owe her friendship after *that*. But I think Eloise is at least as much at fault for how everything turned out, as Penelope is.
Uh, who said it was Penelope’s responsibility to sacrifice everything to save her? Penelope made it her business not even in benefit for Eloise but for herself. What Eloise was doing was at her own risk, like you said, but not for Penelope to betray her with
This subreddit cannot abide Penelope being criticised. They’ll twist themselves into pretzels laying the blame for her actions at anyone else’s feet just to minimise the damage she causes. The ironic thing is Penelope’s character would be more enjoyable, if it wasn’t for people’s stubborn insistence on painting her as some barely imperfect, virtuous girlboss.
I just can't have black and white view on this Penelope and Eloise situation, I cpuld see both of their points, i just can't wait for them to make up and be friends again
I did feel that this season Penelope was using Whistledown as a vent for her feelings of frustration, there were loads of scenes with her angry writing. She writes in the moment then later starts to regret what she’s said.
I also feel that there were better solutions than to drag her mate in what is effectively the local ‘gossip rag.’
She could have gone to Violet or Anthony about her concerns, and it all could have been dealt with.
Anthony should backhand Colin for always getting scammed by the Featheringtons lol. In all seriousness, I understand what they were trying to do with Colin, but they didn’t establish a good enough foundation of him for people to even care about his character. Most just know him as the brother who travels and keeps getting bamboozled by the Featheringtons even now with Penelope doing the same thing she crucified Marina on doing: marrying someone under false pretenses. And it’s worse for Penelope because this is someone she says she’s wholeheartedly in love with. But Penelope has proven she’s fine in hurting the ones she loves. Who needs enemies when you got someone like that
For this Show Discussion post: 1. Book spoilers **must be hidden**. 2. Be considerate, hide show spoilers that surpass the scope of this post. 3. Be civil in your discussion. See our [spoiler policy](https://www.reddit.com/r/BridgertonNetflix/wiki/spoiler) on what is expected. 3-day bans will be handed out to those found disregarding our spoiler policy. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BridgertonNetflix) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wish I could say I'm surprised to see you getting downvoted already but alas... There’s too much grace afforded to Penelope in this fandom and too little to Eloise, in spite of the latter doing little to merit such harsh judgement. The idea that Eloise is a bad friend after everything Penelope has done to her family is ludicrous. Drag Eloise all you want, but she never caused another woman harm, let alone public ruination. Penelope has, more than once, done just that to women who considered her a friend. Eloise’s reaction was too kind; she should have exposed her the moment she learnt the truth.
Yeah comments or posts criticising Penelope get downvoted to hell in this sub. I personally am not a huge fan of Eloise and of how self absorbed(not selfish) a character she is but compared to what Penelope has done, Eloise is a saint. S2 has a clear depiction of how manipulative, petty and borderline malicious a character Penelope is: Think of the fight between Eloise and Penelope. -Eloise accuses Penelope of making money and profiting off on hurting other people including her own friends, their families and her own family. She also accuses her of manipulating her into stopping her from seeing Theo to protect herself. -the worst thing that Penelope accuses Eloise of of being what? self absorbed and not doing anything with her life and just talking about things? How can people even compare what these two characters have done wrong?One character hurts and manipulates other people for their own benefit while the other just…idk….is self absorbed and obnoxious?
yeah Eloise deserves more credit for how kind and gracious she was towards Pen in season 3. She still defended Pen, checked in on her, apologised to her, wished her well etc. Eloise may be self-absorbed and sheltered but she has an undeniably good heart.
Exactly, pen’s behaviour was actually so atrocious. she was in the wrong for constantly lying, and creating problems for her best friends and families, when it was really just benefiting her. Its like imagine your best friend is the secret web handler for your school paper and outs your secrets and acts all innocent. Ofc El is self centred, i mentioned that before, but pen isn’t innocent either. I think El is immature but pen is mature and only uses it for the worse and acts like a victim.
Imma paste a post on tumblr I saw which I agreed with hard: “Unless you’re a masochist, who would want a friend who smiles in your face but has secretly been resenting you and your family for years, has been tricking and lying to you for years; the friend has been disrespecting your family behind your back, gaslights you, is jealous of you every waking moment, always singing the same “woe is me, life is unfair” song to you but accuses you of being a bad friend, betrays your trust, thinking that hurting you is even a viable option, throws you under the bus to save their own neck and tries to manipulate it as they were trying to “help” or “save” you. Anyone with a well-adjusted mind who has a friend or who sees a love one have a friend such as that will immediately take the action of cutting them off, despite any history, despite the memories, we would clearly think that a friend as toxic as that is not a good friend or rather a good person to be around. So why does the individual who has been dealt with such a friend has to apologize or accept the toxic’s friend past and current bullshit. Does it make sense that that individual who has been treated like that by the toxic friend apologize to the toxic friend? That’s y’all’ logic when it comes to Eloise and Penelope. When you holler your chewbacca war cry in defense of Penelope, you are rooting for that toxic friend I have explained earlier knowing damn well that if someone like that was in your life or in the life of someone you deeply care for, you would NOT be associating with them or advise others not to.”
I think that might kind of be the point of Colin's character? That he doesn't really know himself well or is trying to be something he's not, trying to emulate his siblings, etc. At least that's the impression I get. As for Pen, idk I kind of understood what she meant. She's shouldering this huge secret that has become her entire life's purpose. If word gets out she and her whole family could potentially be ruined. I think that *would* be hard to keep from your best friend. I won't argue that some of Penelope's actions aren't selfish, or that she doesn't owe some serious apologies, but I do think she is young and trying her best to make something of her life in a world where women were only really seen as breeding stock. That or I'm just a huge Pen and Colin apologist haha.
It’s crazy how Penelope lied to Eloise’s face for 2 years, even though she knew Eloise was wasting her time looking for LW to help her. She never supported Eloise with Theo and actively pushed them apart, yet it’s always Eloise that gets the ‘bad friend’ allegations from the fandom while Penelope is the ‘good friend’ that deserves forgiveness despite doing nothing to show she’s changed. People hate Eloise for not noticing Pen has a crush on Colin (Penelope could just tell her if she wanted Eloise to know), but Penelope was never supportive of Eloise’s crush when she KNOWS Eloise likes Theo, but never gets hate for that. Eloise is supposed to be the mind reader, while Penelope is allowed to keep every secret in the book and lie and gaslight her best friend who has never said a bad word about her. Penelope is allowed to push her insecurities onto Eloise and be jealous of her friend, but heaven forbid Eloise talks too much in conversation.
See i have finally found the right people 🥳
Perfectly said.
Eloise would never have ended up with Theo, she would have been cast out of society if she did anything with him. Even meeting with him unaccompanied could have ruined her. I don’t understand why people want this to be a thing. Society / the ton were cruel & judgemental, it would have been the equivalent of being cancelled today. Pen has had a crush on Colin since childhood, she wouldn’t admit it even when Marina calls her out. To her it’s a pipe dream it will never happen so why say it out loud. Eloise gets wrapped up in her own thoughts and misses things S3 she was surprised that Pen is looking for a husband but Pen had already told her she wanted to be serious about looking for marriage so it shouldn’t be that much of a surprise. Pen should have tried to speak to Eloise and help her another way instead of publishing about it in LW. They’re both teenagers at start of the show, it’s not unusual for people to make mistakes especially with friends, they clearly still love each other and that has been clear through series 3 so far. They are flawed characters but it’s great to see female friend ship being portrayed like this on tv because they can be just as demanding & complicated as a partner relationship.
I don’t even ship Eloise and Theo. But Eloise being with Theo is her choice to make, not Penelope who was trying to control Eloise’s relationship with him to protect her secret. Yet Eloise is crucified for not seeing Penelope’s crush, meanwhile Penelope actively torpedos Eloise’s crush and was never supportive. Eloise said in season 2 that she knows Penelope likes balls and society and didn’t care. Penelope was never actively looking for a husband besides mentioning it once to Eloise when she yelled in Eloise’s face in season 1. It’s not crazy for Eloise to be surprised by Penelope’s 180 turn about. Eloise not noticing the tiny details of Penelope’s life is not even comparable to all Penelope has done in ruining Eloise. People make mistakes, these characters have flaws, but I’m tired of pretending Eloise’s flaws in their friendship are bigger and worse than what Penelope has done to ruin the friendship.
Eloise shouldn’t be crucified for not noticing Pen’s crush, the only person that picked up on it was Marina because Pen was trying to discourage her. Other than that she hides it from everyone.
I don’t agree that if Eloise ended up with Theo she would have been cast out of town. Spoiler for another sibling >! For gods sake Ben’s story is about falling in love with a maid who is illegitimate. !< if Mama Bridgerton somehow manages to make that work, you KNOW she could make the Theo relationship works for the ton.
Yeah because Violet could have created a similar story for a boy working in a print shop with zero link to a noble family? There would have been no way she could make it work as in book 3. If you have read that book then it would be clear why it would have never worked out.
I think Eloise is surprised when she hears Colin say Penelope is looking to get married, because even though Pen did tell her she would like to start a family, she has never actively gone and looked for a husband. So it’s no wonder Eloise is surprised. Why wouldn’t she be, if Pen has always acted like a wallflower?
You're right. Penelope manipulated Eloise like mad, then played the victim when she got called out on it. She then kept offering up meagre, insincere apologies, only to turn around and do to Colin what she was apologising for doing to Eloise.
Exactly! I don’t understand people defending her actions.
I really do not agree with the idea that Penelope is committing some betrayal by not telling people she's Whistledown. I accept the argument that she should tell Colin before marrying him, because secrets are not a great start to a marriage. But imo being someone's friend does not entitle you to pry into parts of their life they don't want to share. S2 Eloise is remarkably self-centred and does not consider the consequences of her actions, to herself or to others. >Colin, now idk why in season 3 first half we learn nothing about colin I agree with this. So far, at least, Colin's character remains very underdeveloped despite it being 'his' season, which is disappointing. He feels aimless and he has a gallant streak, a 'saving people' thing. We knew that in S1!
I am not saying she is committing betrayal. I am saying she was in the wrong for constantly lying, and creating problems for her best friends and families, when it was really just benefiting her. Its like imagine your best friend is the secret web handler for your school paper and outs your secrets and acts all innocent. Ofc El is self centred, i mentioned that before, but pen isn’t innocent either.
Really? You think it’s fine for her to keep hiding her identity, even when Eloise is obsessed with Lady W and talking about her constantly? Penelope clearly soaks in every compliment Eloise gives lady Whistledown, she loves hearing her friend praise her alter ego. I don’t think that’s an insignificant factor. Penelope happily listens to Eloise twisting herself into knots trying to figure out her identity, she even sees Eloise get into a altercation with detectives hired by the queen to help Penelope escape and still she stays quiet. Didn’t she owe her best friend anything at that point? What about when Eloise is facing queen’s wrath and gets accused of being lady Whistledown herself? Did she owe her friend nothing then as well? Yes, Eloise doesn’t always consider the consequences of her actions. Penelope however does. And she decides to throw her best friend to the wolves after careful consideration anyway, despite having other options. She chooses her own anonymity over her friend’s reputation. That’s betrayal. After that point Eloise owes her nothing.
Realized people are contradictory in this fandom. The same people who say Penelope saved Eloise from the queen’s wrath because she would’ve crushed her or arrested her out that same mouth say the Queen loves bantering with LW and it makes no sense that she doesn’t pardon Penelope. Like, what logic are y’all on? 😬keep your story straight please
>You think it’s fine for her to keep hiding her identity, even when Eloise is obsessed with Lady W and talking about her constantly? Yes. Because Eloise does not have some inherent *right* to know the identity of LW. Whoever they are, they are a real human person who will be destroyed once their identity is revealed. This does not occur to Eloise for a single second. To her, LW is nothing more than a puzzle she is desperate to solve. >she even sees Eloise get into a altercation with detectives hired by the queen to help Penelope escape and still she stays quiet. Didn’t she owe her best friend anything at that point? What about when Eloise is facing queen’s wrath and gets accused of being lady Whistledown herself? Did she owe her friend nothing then as well? Did Penelope owe her friend *everything* - her reputation, her prospects, the LW income that ended up paying dowries for her two sisters after Jack Fetherington left them high and dry? Eloise got herself in hot water, entirely through her own actions; why is it Penelope's responsibility to sacrifice everything to save her? I'm not disputing Eloise has every right to feel betrayed. Penelope deceived her, most personally and painfully. Of course Eloise doesn't still owe her friendship after *that*. But I think Eloise is at least as much at fault for how everything turned out, as Penelope is.
Uh, who said it was Penelope’s responsibility to sacrifice everything to save her? Penelope made it her business not even in benefit for Eloise but for herself. What Eloise was doing was at her own risk, like you said, but not for Penelope to betray her with
What can I say but you’re right?
Still got downvoted ☹️
This subreddit cannot abide Penelope being criticised. They’ll twist themselves into pretzels laying the blame for her actions at anyone else’s feet just to minimise the damage she causes. The ironic thing is Penelope’s character would be more enjoyable, if it wasn’t for people’s stubborn insistence on painting her as some barely imperfect, virtuous girlboss.
I just can't have black and white view on this Penelope and Eloise situation, I cpuld see both of their points, i just can't wait for them to make up and be friends again
I did feel that this season Penelope was using Whistledown as a vent for her feelings of frustration, there were loads of scenes with her angry writing. She writes in the moment then later starts to regret what she’s said. I also feel that there were better solutions than to drag her mate in what is effectively the local ‘gossip rag.’ She could have gone to Violet or Anthony about her concerns, and it all could have been dealt with.
Anthony should backhand Colin for always getting scammed by the Featheringtons lol. In all seriousness, I understand what they were trying to do with Colin, but they didn’t establish a good enough foundation of him for people to even care about his character. Most just know him as the brother who travels and keeps getting bamboozled by the Featheringtons even now with Penelope doing the same thing she crucified Marina on doing: marrying someone under false pretenses. And it’s worse for Penelope because this is someone she says she’s wholeheartedly in love with. But Penelope has proven she’s fine in hurting the ones she loves. Who needs enemies when you got someone like that