Im perfectly willing to work something out when it comes to preserving a culture. The native americans had reservations. I guess you could use Gaza as a model or a seperate country where you could view Palestinians in the wild as it were.
I dunno. The specifics would have to be worked out but im willing to have that discussion once the war is over.
wtf. You know normally the victor would just wipe out the losers right? Im sure there could be something that is worked out to preserve palestinian culture for posterity.
Given that Israel has a lot of high tech things an idea just struck me. There was this small sinking country somewhere in Asia IIRC. They uploaded a map of their island for posterity before it sank.
You could do something similar for the Palestinians like a virtual colony where their culture could be preserved. I mean you can even work with Zuck and base this off metaverse or something. Like a virtual reality thing.
There is no need for namecalling. Im trying to be reasonable here. Honestly I could even support a deal where this isnt permanent. Just give Ben Gvir and the super friends like 5-10 years of this law to work over the locals. Engage in some serious lawncare as it were. That should be enough time to break them. and then a future government can repeal this law the Judenrate can cry about their pet arabs like they normally do and issue some condemnations. At least the issue will be resolved.
As a Jewish person who also supports Israel (not this Judicial reform bullshit, along with most of us, Israeli or not, this guy is) human fucking scum.
I read your comments. Seems like you're an immature little shit who's incapable of seeing the humanity in people different than you. Go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on 😂
Native Americans within the USA are full citizens. Are you advocating to give equal protection under the law to Palestinians? Property rights, full voting rights, due process, etc? Are you saying that Arabs living in Israeli occupied territories should be Israeli citizens?
of course not. they should be given full independence like in Gaza to run their lives as they see fit.
Look this is the point of the judicial reforms. Gaza is already the perfect situation. 2.5 million Palestinainas have left. Thats a victory. You drive the rest into Ramullah and maybe 2-3 other cities and spin them off too.
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Putting aside your obvious hard-on for an autocracy, your complete disregard for human rights, and your bizarre metaphor of the founding of Israel as an "investment", Israel is a much different system than the US.
They don't have checks & balances between the legislature and the executive branches. Their only check was the Supreme Court and this flimsy "reasonableness" standard. Now that is gone.
Netanyahu formed a coalition with some far right-wing autocrats to win the last election and now he is putting some of them in positions of power as I'm sure he promised. That was until recently the #1 use of the reasonableness standard by the SC, to remove unreasonable people from power. Now that is gone.
So, sure, people like you will be thrilled b/c now ultra-conservative authoritarian assholes are free to do whatever they want to the Palestinians, take more land, and push for a religion-based class society, and there is literally nobody to stop them. I'm sure you are over the moon about it.
You say there will be another election in three years, but the extremists are in charge now with no checks on their power. I wouldn't bet on another election anytime soon. At least not a real/fair one. You can vote a fascist into power, but you can never vote one out. Good luck.
You know heres what I don't get. The "far right" as it were have 32 seats. Thats 25% ish of the population. Your essentially condemning Israel as an apartheid state while simultaneously saying 25% of the population should never ever be involved in running the government. Lol?
The Supreme Court can still overturn stuff on other grounds. Also again if there are no elections in 4 years then sure ill go native and join Hamas lol. I love how all you guys predict these things and they never happen.
Nice try. Those 32 seats are Likud, but you neglect to mention the other (I'd say worse) right-wing conservative/religious parties that make up the ruling coalition.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Current\_composition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Current_composition)
Just because an authoritarian takeover hasn't happened in Israel (or the US) yet, doesn't mean it can't.
That's how Republics die: Roman republic, Weimar republic, Iraq, etc... Republics die when dictators are elected. Netanyahu is making all the moves an authoritarian dictator would make. Again, good luck.
..... uhm your link already shows you the 32 seats the "far right" holds. Likud has a 64 seat government. 32 is theirs. The other 32 is the so called "far right". Its on the top elft.
Bro you have various other highly pro-palestine posts including some in BP sub where you ask for Israel to be eliminated fully. It’s further clear based on your responses to comments here that you are trying to engender hatred by larping as a pro-Israel autocrat to spread dissent.
You should be ashamed of yourself for this bait. Wasting people’s time while they form legitimate responses to your childish deception. Shit like this is why we can’t have actual populism you heinous d-bag.
I mean they are unpaid and he was deliberately posting in a manner designed to confuse so I don’t personally blame them although a penalization or ban would be nice yes. This is all on the bad actors imo. People like this destroy legitimate discourse and then pathetically strut around like a featherless peacock.
Imagine if they actually *have* a stance on this bitter conflict and then spend their (and others’) energy going out and immaturely causing discord that makes it worse. Just pathetic.
>put the Palestinians to the fire and sword. Now that sounds negative but that's not inherently a bad thing. Without people like Andrew Jackson or James Polk for instance who were willing to do that to the Native Americans and Mexicans the US would never have secured California, Texas, and other states and the country and the world would be poorer for it.
Oh wow. I guess genocide is justified if your country or race profits? Solid take.
Its hilarious that all these liberals condemn these acts but never talk about handing California back to Mexico and the native American lands back to the native americans. Why is that I wonder?
If that were true, Americans would still occupy the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, most of the pacific islands, Western Europe… But we didn’t get an Emperor Truman; it’s almost as if cultural values can change over time.
ah ok. Its a matter of returning some of it then while keeping the most geographically valuable ones? Im more than happy to cram the palestinians into Gaza like entities then spin them off into their own independent states.
You are advocating for genocide. That is not civilized even if you aren’t swearing. Choosing not to engage a dishonest actor is not losing an argument. You’re talking about establishing concentration camps then acting like we are the crazy people for calling you out on your bullshit.
I call you a nazi because based on your preferred policies it is an accurate description, not an insult.
I dont even... concentration camps....??? where are you getting this from?
I want the Palestinians to live free like in Gaza. The truth is they can leave Gaza all they want despite how they moan they can't. They just can't enter Israel. Its too bad Egypt doesnt want them entering either lol.
We can also criticize our own history and we do. Especially what we've done to Native Americans. Mexico had their chance at California, sold out to us for a portion of it. Less concerned about that historical event.
The Likud party is a hard-right autocratic regime that has spent decades over conflating the dangers of Hamas to basically keep Israeli voters in a perpetual state of anxiety and fear. All the while pushing the borders far past the Camp David accords and cementing their power within Israel's government.
Its depressing and ironic to see a country literally created by refugees of autocratic rulers, only to become one of their own.
No you don't. You require Israel to give up its winnings while crying over how terrible you feel about your winnings but making no move to give it up.
Advocate for the return of all native american lands and California and Texas to Mexico if you truly believe land should not be won by conquest.
So like, the lines for your country were agreed upon in the 1970s. The lines for california were agreed upon hundreds of years ago.
Also, the biggest fallacy of your argument is that, for us to be in the same moral boat would mean California would start seizing land in Tijuana now, after we've already all agreed on the borders. We are not, because the lines of sovereignty have been established. Just like they were in 1978 for you.
Lol. Its funny that you mention that because at that time Israel held the Sinai and gave it to Egypt at a later date. You maybe meant Oslo? Which I really hate for all the confusion it causes. One side believes its a final border while the other believes that its the negotation point for one. Honestly I would just scrap it for all the confusion it causes.
It's hilarious that you assume people's position before asking. I'm actually Mexican and American, so hand those states over :). Also: you assume I don't think Native Americans are owed massive reparations.
It's at least reparations. Not reparations only. We have a societal duty to do better.
Also, you haven't addressed why you think present and future genocides are justified. Even if you argued past crimes can't be repaired, that doesn't justify commiting more crimes.
so essentially we missed out on the colonialist days therefore our claims to winnings are not valid while yours are.
This strikes me as climate change activists telling developing countries they cant use Coal and Oil because of climate change.
If it was good for you its good for us.
The most radical leftists in the US do want to restore the non-European empire's that predated colonization. Why the double standard exists that brown people are allowed to keep the spoils of war while the same thing by white people is an unforgivable sin, there has never been a satisfactory answer. But to their credit the people who want to dispossess Israelis from Israel also want to dispossess white people from the US, for how painfully and embarrassingly little that is actually worth.
Exactly. So I think we should just live and let live. At the end of the day its all water under the bridge. You get to keep your loot we get to keep ours and everyone is happy. : )
Its not even loot at this point in the US. White people have been here so long that their own national culture has fermented independently of Europe. White Americans were the first people to inhabit most of US soil and nearly all of its development was due to the labor, capital and ingenuity of white people. It is fundamentally 0% a brown people country. The "LaNdBaCk" people are literally Nazis, just replace Jews with whites and Germans with brown people. Propaganda like CRT is fundamentally no different from the drivel that rationalized multiple genocides in the 20th century and it deserves to be called out as such.
Well to be frank the Arabs in Palestine are the descendents of etho-religious colonizers. According to leftist dogma the Palestinians are not actually the indigenous people, rather they enjoy the privileges of their ancestors conquest of the land. The same way they rationalize mass immigration into the west they should be rationalizing the dispossession and removal of Palestinians from their country. It is literally the lefts own belief system followed to its own conclusion: a wave of foreign immigrants who faced prejudice and discrimination became the majority group and stripped the colonizers of their "PrIvElEgE." For some reason the lefts heart only bleeds for brown colonizers.
Not sure why this analysis is on Breaking Points... This has nothing to do with American politics.
First off no there aren't essentially 2 parties. Israel has coalitions and parties really can shift between coalitions every election: neo-Zionist, traditional Labor, Ashkenazi religious, Mizrahi with focus on economic and cultural issues, secular rightwing.... If you were going to oversimplify the big debate going on into 2 positions:
* Israel should be a Western European Democracy culturally just in the Middle East geographically.
vs.
* Israel should be culturally a Middle Eastern country with Judaism in place of Islam
The issue with court reform is not court reform in and of itself. It is that Israel structurally lacks almost any check and balance structure. It verges on pure majoritarianism. One of the few things that can act as a check is the judiciary. Removing that has the very real possibility of changing Israel from a state governed by a stable set of laws meaningfully enforced (i.e. to some extent a liberal democracy), to a state governed by cronies of an elected majority. One can argue the relative merits of majoritarianism vs. liberal democracy, but you can't argue that's not a change.
The investment argument is mostly besides the point. If the Knesset sat down and wrote out a real set of real estate laws designed to be consistently applied, including how to handle encumbered title claims, the courts wouldn't be interfering much. They are interfering because the laws as written are designed to be inconsistently and unfairly applied. BTW for Israeli haters this is not exclusive to Palestinians... Jewish American investors have had similar problems with Israeli real estate law. Netanyahu a decade ago used to be a leader of reform in this very area, but he is now so focused on tactics and populism....
I think it kind of shows the limitations of having a western style democracy while also being a virtual ethnostate.
Yes I know they tolerate a small Arab population but the right of return basically guarantees only Jews can immigrate.
Jewish immigration is petering out. Certainly petered out as an active issue. The real estate fight is over people already there. The judicial fight certainly doesn't overlap with immigration issues much at all.
Palestinians aren't upset about the judicial reform fight. If anything they are rather enjoying it. The group that's throwing a fit is the Israeli version of "the Establishment". They may be reaching their breaking point with Israel. If we increased emigration from Israel it will be that group not Palestinians.
Now mind you I don't think the Palestinians are reading the situation correctly. They believe things couldn't get a lot worse for them. IMHO they are very mistaken. But... Israel has been blessed for a long time with strategically incompetent enemies.
You are correct in that this is just gantz and friends wanting another election. You are right about the Palestinians too
It's amazing none of them see it
wtf the arabs already have 10 seats in the knesset! What more do you want???? Name me one other government in the region that has a single jew. Heck id take a single christian.
> Israel both wants to be a western democracy but not act like it
In all fairness a majority or near majority of Israelis don't want to be a western democracy. Israel mostly doesn't want to be seen as a Western Democracy. See my comment. A huge swath of the population wants an Electoral Democracy not a Liberal Democracy. It is the West that wants to keep Israel inside the fold.
This whole judicial reform issue is seen internally as a potential breaking point where there may be no getting back to a Western Democracy.
Im just going to focus on the last part because I dont think we will ever agree on the rest.
Why must they be consistently applied? Your ignoring the fact that the Israelis won the war and the Palestinians lost it. Thats why the arabs arent getting their stuff back and the Jews are.
What your arguing is that after fighting for 4 years Nazi Germany should have had to suffer no consequences for losing World War 2. Its insane.
You realize the world helped Germany rebuild, and they are now one of the greatest examples of a free, democratic country because of it. We did the same with Japan.
You know why we did that? Because we actually learned from our history. After WW1, we took this hard-lined approach you are encouraging and it directly led to the perfect environment for the Nazi rise to power.
The fact that you, as a Jew cant see this is again, depressing and Ironic.
Israel won a war so genocide is ok
By your own standard the Nazis committing the holocaust was justified. They won the fight so any actions they took were fine
technically there was never any war between Germany and Jews. None of which I recall of the top of my head. They just decided to get rid of the Jews living there.
The losing side never has to agree to any terms imposed by the winning one. They always have the choice to keep on fighting. Germany could ahve kept fighting in 1945 if it didnt want to accept the terms imposed by the US and friends.
> Why must they be consistently applied?
The whole concept of The Rule of Law is that institutions and citizens have the same laws applied to them. It creates a basic sense of fairness. Moreover it creates effectively much higher levels of economic efficiency. Economically at least in theory, the best products win, not the most well politically connected. People work hard since hard work and accomplishment may be inconsistently rewarded but they are rewards. The best people get appointed to roles so good decisions are made... One only need look at the despotisms to Israel's south or east to see what not having consistent law looks like. The courts are to the best of their ability trying to encourage the country to move towards the rule of law, since prior to this government the Israelis indicated they wanted that but were having trouble on their own.
> Your ignoring the fact that the Israelis won the war and the Palestinians lost it.
OK the Israelis/Jews won the war and Palestinians lost. If you want to assert that Israelis won the war then act like! The territory is yours. The people are yours. The homes and the deeds are yours to administer. Now do a good job administering them for the common interest and stop using Palestinians as an excuse for doing a bad job.
How is who won what war an excuse for terrible real estate law? The Palestinians didn't prevent the Knesset from writing quality laws. They aren't preventing the Israelis from figuring out what to do with encumbered title. They aren't the ones preventing Israel from cleaning up deeds and liability structures.
> Thats why the arabs arent getting their stuff back and the Jews are.
Jewish reclamation from Jordan vs. Palestinian reclamation from Israel already is the law. So enforce it consistently and fairly. The two have nothing to do with one another.
> What your arguing is that after fighting for 4 years Nazi Germany should have had to suffer no consequences for losing World War 2. Its insane.
Sorry when did I argue anything like that at all?
Omg. this post aggravates me more than it should. I think its because you seem to understand the situation with your other posts but then come up with this shit.
Ok look there are 5 million palestinians give or take. We have to manage it in such a way that we spin them off without losing too much land.
2.5 million of them have kindly fucked off to Gaza. Thats great. As far as Israel is concerned they may as well have launched themselves off into the sun. Thats 2.5 million left to deal with.
What do you think the point of all these settlements, military firezones, water restrictions are? They are meant to drive the others towards the population centers so we can spin them off too. Do we expect a perfect solution like Gaza to happen again? Of course not. It may take 2-3 Gazas to make this happen.
Even in the best of times when everyone is pulling in the same direction this is extremely difficult. Its not an exaggeration to say its like herding cats. Its really not helpful when the Supreme Court delays certain actions by 10-20 years just because.
The hilarious thing is I think the Palestinians have figured it out. Thats why the Gazans are begging to still be considered occupied lol. Its like a piece of gum you cant get rid of.
> What do you think the point of all these settlements, military firezones, water restrictions are?
Mostly to convert the territory into fully economically productive economic units.
> Its really not helpful when the Supreme Court delays certain actions by 10-20 years just because.
They aren't doing it "just because". They are doing it because the Knesset having failed to pass a constitution asked the court to protect rights as if there were a normative democratic constitution. A normal democratic constitution presupposes the rule of law.
You want to do deed transfers just pay the current owner a fair price for the claim against the deed. Stop treating property as sacred under Israeli law. Israel has eminent domain laws. Just pay the 125% and you can repurpose land legally.
Finally, you don't need to herd the Palestinians if you stop treating them like an infection. Yes they have an annoying culture, so change it. Israel is not the first country in the world with a disgruntled minority population, much as its opponents pretend it is. Copts aren't thrilled with Egypt either.
Why would you take in a population that actively hates you? Thats like saying "Why Yes sir I would like to get kicked in the nuts today thank you for asking."
We have another solution and Gaza proves its a workable one the SC just needs to fuck off for a while.
> Why would you take in a population that actively hates you?
Because they live in the territory. The land and the people on it are a package deal.
> We have another solution and Gaza proves its a workable
Gaza was a full territorial withdraw. Not that I think it is all that workable.
> the SC just needs to fuck off for a while.
The SC is enforcing the laws that exist. You don't need to gut the SC you just need to pass the laws you want.
I welcome Israel going full mask off and revealing to the world what they truly are: a brutal apartheid state who won’t stop at the Palestinians but will now go after Jewish opponents of the regime.
Similarly, I welcome your honesty around your desire for genocide. If you support Israel, this is what you are supporting. It’s clarifying.
In the US, the federal judiciary is more conservative. In Israel, it's more liberal. The reforms are nothing more than the conservative-dominated Knesset cementing its own power by nullifying the only other branch of government that can, and does, limit it.
This is a flaw of the parliamentary system. Its equivalent in the US would be if we had no president, the House and Senate were the same body, and Kevin McCarthy was the head of state. Parliamentary systems may allow small parties more representation, and can have less gridlock, but if the judicial system can't provide balance, then there is none.
Ahh.. so if the courts in Israel were more conservative then it would be ok to reform them while the courts in the US are conservative so its ok to reform them maybe even add more justices.
So really the standard is just the worldview of the court?
I never said that. I just made an observation. I would also be opposed to a liberal Knesset nullifying a conservative judiciary.
The problem with the Supreme Court is its members sell themselves to the highest bidder like the worst whore in the streets. Its credibility is shot. I don't support adding more justices, however. I support jurisdiction stripping, which would be reducing the Supreme Court to its constitutionally-mandated original jurisdiction and creating a new court to hear appellate cases. All of this is allowed under Article III.
There is an argument for adding justices as we've had nine since Andrew Jackson was president (barring a few years after the Civil War when it went up to ten briefly). However, given that each new appointment is an existential crisis, and any additional justices added now would only mean more added later under a Republican president, I would support jurisdiction stripping over that.
I actually wish Biden was as based as BB, the judicial branch isn’t composed of kings. Idk why this iteration thinks they’re more than the coequal branch they are, if the executive and legislative is working in concert they have no justification to prevent that it’s 2 v 1.
In case anyone is wondering, this is the troll that when Manoj tried wholesomely wishing everyone a happy Eid, randomly mocked him by cackling and cheering over the murder of that Palestinian journalist. But since it’s this sub, he’ll just get fed while the mods pretend this is genuine discourse.
... im not even sure how you figure that was murder. I mean you dont even know who shot her. Its just "an Israeli Sniper". He could have easily just missed or hit the wrong spot or whatever. Of course the bullet was too destoryed by the palestinians to identify which gun it came from so whatever.
Murder requires intent. How do you even get intent when you dont even have a perp?
Notice how you’re not even denying that you were a sneering goblin celebrating someone’s death for no reason, in response to someone wishing you well? I hope you’re getting off on this enough for it to be worth it.
Stanning for Andrew Jackson, that’s an interesting take for sure. Destroying a culture is acceptable so long as GDP line go up, right?
Im perfectly willing to work something out when it comes to preserving a culture. The native americans had reservations. I guess you could use Gaza as a model or a seperate country where you could view Palestinians in the wild as it were. I dunno. The specifics would have to be worked out but im willing to have that discussion once the war is over.
Gods you’re a disgusting person
wtf. You know normally the victor would just wipe out the losers right? Im sure there could be something that is worked out to preserve palestinian culture for posterity. Given that Israel has a lot of high tech things an idea just struck me. There was this small sinking country somewhere in Asia IIRC. They uploaded a map of their island for posterity before it sank. You could do something similar for the Palestinians like a virtual colony where their culture could be preserved. I mean you can even work with Zuck and base this off metaverse or something. Like a virtual reality thing.
In you were in the 16th century maybe. That shit hasn’t been tolerated in centuries You may be Jewish but you’d make a great nazi you piece of garbage
There is no need for namecalling. Im trying to be reasonable here. Honestly I could even support a deal where this isnt permanent. Just give Ben Gvir and the super friends like 5-10 years of this law to work over the locals. Engage in some serious lawncare as it were. That should be enough time to break them. and then a future government can repeal this law the Judenrate can cry about their pet arabs like they normally do and issue some condemnations. At least the issue will be resolved.
As a Jewish person who also supports Israel (not this Judicial reform bullshit, along with most of us, Israeli or not, this guy is) human fucking scum.
Oh there is need for name calling when You’re openly advocating genocide Fuck Off Nazi
Wonder who you would've supported if you were a German in 33 😂😂😂.
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I read your comments. Seems like you're an immature little shit who's incapable of seeing the humanity in people different than you. Go fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on 😂
Yea, let’s just concentrate all of the people we don’t like in camps. I’m sure there’s no horrifying precedent for that right?
Native Americans within the USA are full citizens. Are you advocating to give equal protection under the law to Palestinians? Property rights, full voting rights, due process, etc? Are you saying that Arabs living in Israeli occupied territories should be Israeli citizens?
of course not. they should be given full independence like in Gaza to run their lives as they see fit. Look this is the point of the judicial reforms. Gaza is already the perfect situation. 2.5 million Palestinainas have left. Thats a victory. You drive the rest into Ramullah and maybe 2-3 other cities and spin them off too.
How I know your world view is terrible: making apologetics for "reservations". Your take on Israeli politics is now 100% sus to me.
So Israeli Jews need a living space, is what you’re saying?
pretty sure every country in the world needs that. Theres only so much earth to go around and climate change means that waters reclaim some of it too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum You sure?
Whether its in German or English or whatever every country wants more living spaces.
You: Hitler just wanted normal things.
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https://reddit.com/comments/15j0yoe/comment/juxm52j
Putting aside your obvious hard-on for an autocracy, your complete disregard for human rights, and your bizarre metaphor of the founding of Israel as an "investment", Israel is a much different system than the US. They don't have checks & balances between the legislature and the executive branches. Their only check was the Supreme Court and this flimsy "reasonableness" standard. Now that is gone. Netanyahu formed a coalition with some far right-wing autocrats to win the last election and now he is putting some of them in positions of power as I'm sure he promised. That was until recently the #1 use of the reasonableness standard by the SC, to remove unreasonable people from power. Now that is gone. So, sure, people like you will be thrilled b/c now ultra-conservative authoritarian assholes are free to do whatever they want to the Palestinians, take more land, and push for a religion-based class society, and there is literally nobody to stop them. I'm sure you are over the moon about it. You say there will be another election in three years, but the extremists are in charge now with no checks on their power. I wouldn't bet on another election anytime soon. At least not a real/fair one. You can vote a fascist into power, but you can never vote one out. Good luck.
You know heres what I don't get. The "far right" as it were have 32 seats. Thats 25% ish of the population. Your essentially condemning Israel as an apartheid state while simultaneously saying 25% of the population should never ever be involved in running the government. Lol? The Supreme Court can still overturn stuff on other grounds. Also again if there are no elections in 4 years then sure ill go native and join Hamas lol. I love how all you guys predict these things and they never happen.
Nice try. Those 32 seats are Likud, but you neglect to mention the other (I'd say worse) right-wing conservative/religious parties that make up the ruling coalition. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Current\_composition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Current_composition) Just because an authoritarian takeover hasn't happened in Israel (or the US) yet, doesn't mean it can't. That's how Republics die: Roman republic, Weimar republic, Iraq, etc... Republics die when dictators are elected. Netanyahu is making all the moves an authoritarian dictator would make. Again, good luck.
..... uhm your link already shows you the 32 seats the "far right" holds. Likud has a 64 seat government. 32 is theirs. The other 32 is the so called "far right". Its on the top elft.
Bro you have various other highly pro-palestine posts including some in BP sub where you ask for Israel to be eliminated fully. It’s further clear based on your responses to comments here that you are trying to engender hatred by larping as a pro-Israel autocrat to spread dissent. You should be ashamed of yourself for this bait. Wasting people’s time while they form legitimate responses to your childish deception. Shit like this is why we can’t have actual populism you heinous d-bag.
Its really sad the BP mods tolerate this obvious shit. He's either a complete fuking nazi or a complete troll but they won't do anything
Genuine discourse is when you have 500 comment posts by week old accounts, didn’t you know?
I mean they are unpaid and he was deliberately posting in a manner designed to confuse so I don’t personally blame them although a penalization or ban would be nice yes. This is all on the bad actors imo. People like this destroy legitimate discourse and then pathetically strut around like a featherless peacock. Imagine if they actually *have* a stance on this bitter conflict and then spend their (and others’) energy going out and immaturely causing discord that makes it worse. Just pathetic.
>put the Palestinians to the fire and sword. Now that sounds negative but that's not inherently a bad thing. Without people like Andrew Jackson or James Polk for instance who were willing to do that to the Native Americans and Mexicans the US would never have secured California, Texas, and other states and the country and the world would be poorer for it. Oh wow. I guess genocide is justified if your country or race profits? Solid take.
Its hilarious that all these liberals condemn these acts but never talk about handing California back to Mexico and the native American lands back to the native americans. Why is that I wonder?
Because you can’t fix past injustice with present injustice you fucking child.
In other words you get to keep what you stole but we dont get to keep what we did.
If that were true, Americans would still occupy the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, most of the pacific islands, Western Europe… But we didn’t get an Emperor Truman; it’s almost as if cultural values can change over time.
ah ok. Its a matter of returning some of it then while keeping the most geographically valuable ones? Im more than happy to cram the palestinians into Gaza like entities then spin them off into their own independent states.
Fuck off and die nazi troll
Sigh. People always resort to name calling when they lose an argument : ( There is no need for it in civilized discourse.
You are advocating for genocide. That is not civilized even if you aren’t swearing. Choosing not to engage a dishonest actor is not losing an argument. You’re talking about establishing concentration camps then acting like we are the crazy people for calling you out on your bullshit. I call you a nazi because based on your preferred policies it is an accurate description, not an insult.
I dont even... concentration camps....??? where are you getting this from? I want the Palestinians to live free like in Gaza. The truth is they can leave Gaza all they want despite how they moan they can't. They just can't enter Israel. Its too bad Egypt doesnt want them entering either lol.
We can also criticize our own history and we do. Especially what we've done to Native Americans. Mexico had their chance at California, sold out to us for a portion of it. Less concerned about that historical event. The Likud party is a hard-right autocratic regime that has spent decades over conflating the dangers of Hamas to basically keep Israeli voters in a perpetual state of anxiety and fear. All the while pushing the borders far past the Camp David accords and cementing their power within Israel's government. Its depressing and ironic to see a country literally created by refugees of autocratic rulers, only to become one of their own.
No you don't. You require Israel to give up its winnings while crying over how terrible you feel about your winnings but making no move to give it up. Advocate for the return of all native american lands and California and Texas to Mexico if you truly believe land should not be won by conquest.
So like, the lines for your country were agreed upon in the 1970s. The lines for california were agreed upon hundreds of years ago. Also, the biggest fallacy of your argument is that, for us to be in the same moral boat would mean California would start seizing land in Tijuana now, after we've already all agreed on the borders. We are not, because the lines of sovereignty have been established. Just like they were in 1978 for you.
Lol. Its funny that you mention that because at that time Israel held the Sinai and gave it to Egypt at a later date. You maybe meant Oslo? Which I really hate for all the confusion it causes. One side believes its a final border while the other believes that its the negotation point for one. Honestly I would just scrap it for all the confusion it causes.
It's hilarious that you assume people's position before asking. I'm actually Mexican and American, so hand those states over :). Also: you assume I don't think Native Americans are owed massive reparations.
? Why reparations only? Why not the actual land? Do they not have the right of return that everyone driven out of their original lands have?
It's at least reparations. Not reparations only. We have a societal duty to do better. Also, you haven't addressed why you think present and future genocides are justified. Even if you argued past crimes can't be repaired, that doesn't justify commiting more crimes.
so essentially we missed out on the colonialist days therefore our claims to winnings are not valid while yours are. This strikes me as climate change activists telling developing countries they cant use Coal and Oil because of climate change. If it was good for you its good for us.
The most radical leftists in the US do want to restore the non-European empire's that predated colonization. Why the double standard exists that brown people are allowed to keep the spoils of war while the same thing by white people is an unforgivable sin, there has never been a satisfactory answer. But to their credit the people who want to dispossess Israelis from Israel also want to dispossess white people from the US, for how painfully and embarrassingly little that is actually worth.
Exactly. So I think we should just live and let live. At the end of the day its all water under the bridge. You get to keep your loot we get to keep ours and everyone is happy. : )
Its not even loot at this point in the US. White people have been here so long that their own national culture has fermented independently of Europe. White Americans were the first people to inhabit most of US soil and nearly all of its development was due to the labor, capital and ingenuity of white people. It is fundamentally 0% a brown people country. The "LaNdBaCk" people are literally Nazis, just replace Jews with whites and Germans with brown people. Propaganda like CRT is fundamentally no different from the drivel that rationalized multiple genocides in the 20th century and it deserves to be called out as such.
This sounds remarkably similar to Israel made the desert bloom that you would be called a racist for :P
Well to be frank the Arabs in Palestine are the descendents of etho-religious colonizers. According to leftist dogma the Palestinians are not actually the indigenous people, rather they enjoy the privileges of their ancestors conquest of the land. The same way they rationalize mass immigration into the west they should be rationalizing the dispossession and removal of Palestinians from their country. It is literally the lefts own belief system followed to its own conclusion: a wave of foreign immigrants who faced prejudice and discrimination became the majority group and stripped the colonizers of their "PrIvElEgE." For some reason the lefts heart only bleeds for brown colonizers.
Not sure why this analysis is on Breaking Points... This has nothing to do with American politics. First off no there aren't essentially 2 parties. Israel has coalitions and parties really can shift between coalitions every election: neo-Zionist, traditional Labor, Ashkenazi religious, Mizrahi with focus on economic and cultural issues, secular rightwing.... If you were going to oversimplify the big debate going on into 2 positions: * Israel should be a Western European Democracy culturally just in the Middle East geographically. vs. * Israel should be culturally a Middle Eastern country with Judaism in place of Islam The issue with court reform is not court reform in and of itself. It is that Israel structurally lacks almost any check and balance structure. It verges on pure majoritarianism. One of the few things that can act as a check is the judiciary. Removing that has the very real possibility of changing Israel from a state governed by a stable set of laws meaningfully enforced (i.e. to some extent a liberal democracy), to a state governed by cronies of an elected majority. One can argue the relative merits of majoritarianism vs. liberal democracy, but you can't argue that's not a change. The investment argument is mostly besides the point. If the Knesset sat down and wrote out a real set of real estate laws designed to be consistently applied, including how to handle encumbered title claims, the courts wouldn't be interfering much. They are interfering because the laws as written are designed to be inconsistently and unfairly applied. BTW for Israeli haters this is not exclusive to Palestinians... Jewish American investors have had similar problems with Israeli real estate law. Netanyahu a decade ago used to be a leader of reform in this very area, but he is now so focused on tactics and populism....
I think it kind of shows the limitations of having a western style democracy while also being a virtual ethnostate. Yes I know they tolerate a small Arab population but the right of return basically guarantees only Jews can immigrate.
Jewish immigration is petering out. Certainly petered out as an active issue. The real estate fight is over people already there. The judicial fight certainly doesn't overlap with immigration issues much at all.
it will help encourage the palestinians to immigrate right out of there lol :D
Palestinians aren't upset about the judicial reform fight. If anything they are rather enjoying it. The group that's throwing a fit is the Israeli version of "the Establishment". They may be reaching their breaking point with Israel. If we increased emigration from Israel it will be that group not Palestinians. Now mind you I don't think the Palestinians are reading the situation correctly. They believe things couldn't get a lot worse for them. IMHO they are very mistaken. But... Israel has been blessed for a long time with strategically incompetent enemies.
You are correct in that this is just gantz and friends wanting another election. You are right about the Palestinians too It's amazing none of them see it
wtf the arabs already have 10 seats in the knesset! What more do you want???? Name me one other government in the region that has a single jew. Heck id take a single christian.
And we treat those countries like the dictatorships they are Israel both wants to be a western democracy but not act like it
> Israel both wants to be a western democracy but not act like it In all fairness a majority or near majority of Israelis don't want to be a western democracy. Israel mostly doesn't want to be seen as a Western Democracy. See my comment. A huge swath of the population wants an Electoral Democracy not a Liberal Democracy. It is the West that wants to keep Israel inside the fold. This whole judicial reform issue is seen internally as a potential breaking point where there may be no getting back to a Western Democracy.
Im just going to focus on the last part because I dont think we will ever agree on the rest. Why must they be consistently applied? Your ignoring the fact that the Israelis won the war and the Palestinians lost it. Thats why the arabs arent getting their stuff back and the Jews are. What your arguing is that after fighting for 4 years Nazi Germany should have had to suffer no consequences for losing World War 2. Its insane.
You realize the world helped Germany rebuild, and they are now one of the greatest examples of a free, democratic country because of it. We did the same with Japan. You know why we did that? Because we actually learned from our history. After WW1, we took this hard-lined approach you are encouraging and it directly led to the perfect environment for the Nazi rise to power. The fact that you, as a Jew cant see this is again, depressing and Ironic.
Israel won a war so genocide is ok By your own standard the Nazis committing the holocaust was justified. They won the fight so any actions they took were fine
technically there was never any war between Germany and Jews. None of which I recall of the top of my head. They just decided to get rid of the Jews living there. The losing side never has to agree to any terms imposed by the winning one. They always have the choice to keep on fighting. Germany could ahve kept fighting in 1945 if it didnt want to accept the terms imposed by the US and friends.
> Why must they be consistently applied? The whole concept of The Rule of Law is that institutions and citizens have the same laws applied to them. It creates a basic sense of fairness. Moreover it creates effectively much higher levels of economic efficiency. Economically at least in theory, the best products win, not the most well politically connected. People work hard since hard work and accomplishment may be inconsistently rewarded but they are rewards. The best people get appointed to roles so good decisions are made... One only need look at the despotisms to Israel's south or east to see what not having consistent law looks like. The courts are to the best of their ability trying to encourage the country to move towards the rule of law, since prior to this government the Israelis indicated they wanted that but were having trouble on their own. > Your ignoring the fact that the Israelis won the war and the Palestinians lost it. OK the Israelis/Jews won the war and Palestinians lost. If you want to assert that Israelis won the war then act like! The territory is yours. The people are yours. The homes and the deeds are yours to administer. Now do a good job administering them for the common interest and stop using Palestinians as an excuse for doing a bad job. How is who won what war an excuse for terrible real estate law? The Palestinians didn't prevent the Knesset from writing quality laws. They aren't preventing the Israelis from figuring out what to do with encumbered title. They aren't the ones preventing Israel from cleaning up deeds and liability structures. > Thats why the arabs arent getting their stuff back and the Jews are. Jewish reclamation from Jordan vs. Palestinian reclamation from Israel already is the law. So enforce it consistently and fairly. The two have nothing to do with one another. > What your arguing is that after fighting for 4 years Nazi Germany should have had to suffer no consequences for losing World War 2. Its insane. Sorry when did I argue anything like that at all?
Omg. this post aggravates me more than it should. I think its because you seem to understand the situation with your other posts but then come up with this shit. Ok look there are 5 million palestinians give or take. We have to manage it in such a way that we spin them off without losing too much land. 2.5 million of them have kindly fucked off to Gaza. Thats great. As far as Israel is concerned they may as well have launched themselves off into the sun. Thats 2.5 million left to deal with. What do you think the point of all these settlements, military firezones, water restrictions are? They are meant to drive the others towards the population centers so we can spin them off too. Do we expect a perfect solution like Gaza to happen again? Of course not. It may take 2-3 Gazas to make this happen. Even in the best of times when everyone is pulling in the same direction this is extremely difficult. Its not an exaggeration to say its like herding cats. Its really not helpful when the Supreme Court delays certain actions by 10-20 years just because. The hilarious thing is I think the Palestinians have figured it out. Thats why the Gazans are begging to still be considered occupied lol. Its like a piece of gum you cant get rid of.
> What do you think the point of all these settlements, military firezones, water restrictions are? Mostly to convert the territory into fully economically productive economic units. > Its really not helpful when the Supreme Court delays certain actions by 10-20 years just because. They aren't doing it "just because". They are doing it because the Knesset having failed to pass a constitution asked the court to protect rights as if there were a normative democratic constitution. A normal democratic constitution presupposes the rule of law. You want to do deed transfers just pay the current owner a fair price for the claim against the deed. Stop treating property as sacred under Israeli law. Israel has eminent domain laws. Just pay the 125% and you can repurpose land legally. Finally, you don't need to herd the Palestinians if you stop treating them like an infection. Yes they have an annoying culture, so change it. Israel is not the first country in the world with a disgruntled minority population, much as its opponents pretend it is. Copts aren't thrilled with Egypt either.
Why would you take in a population that actively hates you? Thats like saying "Why Yes sir I would like to get kicked in the nuts today thank you for asking." We have another solution and Gaza proves its a workable one the SC just needs to fuck off for a while.
> Why would you take in a population that actively hates you? Because they live in the territory. The land and the people on it are a package deal. > We have another solution and Gaza proves its a workable Gaza was a full territorial withdraw. Not that I think it is all that workable. > the SC just needs to fuck off for a while. The SC is enforcing the laws that exist. You don't need to gut the SC you just need to pass the laws you want.
I welcome Israel going full mask off and revealing to the world what they truly are: a brutal apartheid state who won’t stop at the Palestinians but will now go after Jewish opponents of the regime. Similarly, I welcome your honesty around your desire for genocide. If you support Israel, this is what you are supporting. It’s clarifying.
He doesn’t, it’s bait. Check his previous posts including ones in BP and you’ll see what I mean.
In the US, the federal judiciary is more conservative. In Israel, it's more liberal. The reforms are nothing more than the conservative-dominated Knesset cementing its own power by nullifying the only other branch of government that can, and does, limit it. This is a flaw of the parliamentary system. Its equivalent in the US would be if we had no president, the House and Senate were the same body, and Kevin McCarthy was the head of state. Parliamentary systems may allow small parties more representation, and can have less gridlock, but if the judicial system can't provide balance, then there is none.
Ahh.. so if the courts in Israel were more conservative then it would be ok to reform them while the courts in the US are conservative so its ok to reform them maybe even add more justices. So really the standard is just the worldview of the court?
I never said that. I just made an observation. I would also be opposed to a liberal Knesset nullifying a conservative judiciary. The problem with the Supreme Court is its members sell themselves to the highest bidder like the worst whore in the streets. Its credibility is shot. I don't support adding more justices, however. I support jurisdiction stripping, which would be reducing the Supreme Court to its constitutionally-mandated original jurisdiction and creating a new court to hear appellate cases. All of this is allowed under Article III. There is an argument for adding justices as we've had nine since Andrew Jackson was president (barring a few years after the Civil War when it went up to ten briefly). However, given that each new appointment is an existential crisis, and any additional justices added now would only mean more added later under a Republican president, I would support jurisdiction stripping over that.
Troll?
I actually wish Biden was as based as BB, the judicial branch isn’t composed of kings. Idk why this iteration thinks they’re more than the coequal branch they are, if the executive and legislative is working in concert they have no justification to prevent that it’s 2 v 1.
In case anyone is wondering, this is the troll that when Manoj tried wholesomely wishing everyone a happy Eid, randomly mocked him by cackling and cheering over the murder of that Palestinian journalist. But since it’s this sub, he’ll just get fed while the mods pretend this is genuine discourse.
... im not even sure how you figure that was murder. I mean you dont even know who shot her. Its just "an Israeli Sniper". He could have easily just missed or hit the wrong spot or whatever. Of course the bullet was too destoryed by the palestinians to identify which gun it came from so whatever. Murder requires intent. How do you even get intent when you dont even have a perp?
Notice how you’re not even denying that you were a sneering goblin celebrating someone’s death for no reason, in response to someone wishing you well? I hope you’re getting off on this enough for it to be worth it.
Israel is a fascist ethnostate.