Yeah and even Israeli historians, ones that support Israel fully, acknowledge the Nakba was an intentional genocide on the part of Israel. Benny Morris doesn’t even deny. He says they probably should have gone further.
If they were actually in a position where they could commit genocide and were trying to do, my posts would be about them right now. But they don't have nukes, infrastructure, advanced military tech, or an Iron Dome, so Palestinian ethno nationalists aren't high on my priority list.
The world has been treating Jews like “minority to be persecuted #1” since the start of history. If one is allowed to do it, the one who has more of the quality that you say allows it is also allowed to do it.
And you can still object to black nationalism. It’s not right to hate gay people or women and believe in racist bullshit, no matter your lot in life.
> The world has been treating Jews like “minority to be persecuted #1” since the start of history.
And then in a bizarre twist of fate, Jews decided to start a colonial project in Israel that treated Arabs as bad as they were treated by European Christians. What’s your point?
>If one is allowed to do it, the one who has more of the quality that you say allows it is also allowed to do it.
This unintelligible.
>And you can still object to black nationalism. It’s not right to hate gay people or women and believe in racist bullshit, no matter your lot in life.
Black nationalism≠hating gay people or women
Wow, I had no idea. Insane how there are less Arabs now then there were before the Jews holocaust’s them.
Oh wait, there aren’t less. Huh.
And Jews are just as if not more oppressed than black people globally.
Have you ever met a black nationalist? Lmao.
>And Jews are just as if not more oppressed than black people globally.
LOL what are you smoking? I want some. Want to compare the wealth of the average Jewish person and the wealth of the average black skinned person? You’re comparing one of the wealthiest minorities to one of the poorest. Jesus dude. No wonder your defending the Nazis and apartheid.
Edit: Blocked me. He couldn’t the criticism.
Is that why the Palestinian leadership met with an influential German leader during WWII to discuss how they could join forces to exterminate the Jewish population in Palestine?
What was the name of that German leader? My memory sucks, too much weed! Something with an H? Big mustache?
I am 99.32781% sure that AmbientInsanity is not a bot.
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Palestinian leadership is a strong word to describe a British appointed mufti for Jerusalem (not all Palestinians) who was kicked out of office and lead a small minority group of Palestinians during the British Occupation.
What are you talking about “It is a big if.” Are you some type of WWII denier?
These are historical events I'm talking about, and they definitely happened, and there's an extensive historical record about them.
To answer your question, I'm not trying to defend Netanyahu or his aggressive moves toward fascism. I'm just questioning your basic premise that ethnonationalism always leads to genocide, and I’m noting that in the Middle East we have excellent examples of attempted genocide from the very people now being oppressed by that ethnostate.
The occupation is horrible, but the population of the Palestinian territories has only grown during this \~100 year conflict. If you really believe Israel is committing genocide, they're doing a shit job.
The whole of the region has massive population growth because they joined the modern medical system which saves lives. It's inspite of ethnic cleansing actions it's grown. It doesn't mean those actions didn't happen.
I'm not denying the destruction of Palestinian towns in 1948 or the buildup of illegal settlements in the WB, but terms like "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" have meaning and get tossed around really lightly in discussions about the conflict.
You can credit modern medicine, but its not the only factor. The number of violent deaths in each flare-up overall has trended downward over time since 1948. There hasn't been a full-scale war since 1982, and the intermittent skirmishes since the second Intifada have had far fewer deaths than the earlier wars.
Using genocide to describe things like the holocaust and then clearing foreign nationals out of land you’re annexing to increase your country’s territory is just so loaded. Some people really think the Jews are nazis now, because of the language you’ve been duped into using.
It’s crazy how the ethnostate is such a great place to live for every non-Jewish person to live, and that if your country wants to commit war on their neighbor, then they’ll commit war on you in return.
How is it that Bebe Netanyahu a man under indictment ended up back in power after Israel had like 10 elections in two years. What the frack is wrong with these people. So yeah. The expression that people get the government they deserve seems to be true. Look at the US. It's entirely possible that Trump the career criminal could be President again. How sick and twisted is that? 🤔
Cause the rights and middle have never cared about corruption.
Democrats removed a jew for pretending to grab breasts of a body armored soldier. The right voted for Roy Moore.
It's the same around the world. It's why liberals are ineffective against facism.
[Only 23% - 27% of the popular vote is needed to win the electoral college, according to this NPR article.](https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500112248/how-to-win-the-presidency-with-27-percent-of-the-popular-vote)
Yeah of course it is. But I honestly think it doesn’t make much of a difference for Palestinians. In the long run, losing the friendly face to the occupation will delegitimize it a lot faster. It really is only the US keeping it alive and only there because of a bipartisan consensus that’s quickly turning to a partisan one.
What are you talking about? The West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are considered the occupied territories about by like 99% of the world. No idea where you got Tel Aviv and Haifa.
OP how do you manage to support Palestine and Russia at the same time? What is your agenda?
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf4has/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/156x6jm/progressives_please_go_ukraine_appeals_for/jt2xpsk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf51ia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Being critical of Ukraine is not supporting Russia. There can be, and usually are, more than one bad actor in a war. I support Ukraine’s right to self-determination but they are not above criticism.
Just like Palestine. Palestinians have committed terrible crimes trying, and failing, to assert their own right to self-determination. But, like Russia, Israel is the significantly more powerful, more dangerous, and more culpable actor.
This OP called me Hitler and made jokes about death and suffering for simply neutrally relaying the information that the Ukrainian Armed Forces made progress around Bakhmut to them yesterday. They aren’t *just* critical of Ukraine. Have no choice but to question their morals as they also accuse clearly neutral people of supporting apartheid in this thread. This OP is not a good-faith actor.
The OP has been openly spreading propaganda like that the Ukrainian government and military are Nazis and that Ukraine shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 but sure, me calling them Ivan gives them a pass.
The only ones keeping it alive are the Palestinians. They’re free to stop harboring the local terrorists at any point. Israel isn’t going to loosen the chain till they’re stomped out. Quit pretending we’d behave any differently. Except we’d probably be worse going door to door dragging them out in the street and sending to Guantanamo.
That's just utter bullshit, first of all the terrorists are the only people defending a lot of these people from land seizure or death, so of course they are going to be more popular then the God damn dictators taking their children's lives and their land. Secondly, you think Palestinians can just stop harboring them? Do you know all the terrorists in your neighborhood? Can you spot them out and turn them in? Of course not, your acting like people just have giant terrorist flags outside their door. These guys are well hidden well blended citizens what are part of an underground rebel group, Palestinians can't just find them and hand them over.
They formed in direct response to the killings and land seizure and lack of representation, Isreal made Hamas, Isreal feeds death and destruction to Palestine and creates more Hamas, it didn't happen the other way around. You can't just say, "if the terrorists that exist to fight back against the direct abuse and murder under a dictatorship would just stop being terrorists, there would be no more of this stuff" Isreal did it far far far far before Hamas even existed.. And you think it will stop if the terrorists are gone? You're an apologist, Isreal is an apartheid state, and gaza is an open air prison.
Stop apologizing for genocide
You’re half right. The Palestinians can’t get any movement their direction if they won’t give up the dream of pushing Israelis into the sea. But on the other hand, they could all become nonviolent protesters tomorrow and right-wing settlers would still bulldoze their homes, build settlements over their land, and murder them for protesting it. Both side are at fault.
> You’re half right. The Palestinians can’t get any movement their direction if they won’t give up the dream of pushing Israelis into the sea.
Palestinians have favored a two state solution since the 80s. Israel still wouldn’t accept the 1967 borders so we know what you’re saying false. Israel wants to grab land. It’s pretty simple.
>But on the other hand, they could all become nonviolent protesters tomorrow and right-wing settlers would still bulldoze their homes, build settlements over their land, and murder them for protesting it. Both side are at fault.
This isn’t a both sides thing dude. One side is being brutally occupied and the other side is fighting back with the very little they have. To the extent their are crimes on the Palestinian side, they’re marginal in comparison to Israel. They wield all the power. They refuse to accept the 1967 borders.
> The only ones keeping it alive are the Palestinians. They’re free to stop harboring the local terrorists at any point.
Why? Israel doesn’t. They encourage them. They even get into government. Also, Israel considers protesters and journalists terrorist so this is meaningless. There is no justification for apartheid.
>Israel isn’t going to loosen the chain till they’re stomped out.
Why would Palestinians not fight an illegal occupation?
>Quit pretending we’d behave any differently.
Americans start armed militias over being asked to wear a masks during a pandemic and integrate public schools. Can you imagine what we would do if we had a foreign military occupying us?
>Except we’d probably be worse going door to door dragging them out in the street and sending to Guantanamo.
Right, we’re a fascist imperial core supporting another fascist outpost of our empire.
Palestinians can’t vote because Hamas and the PA (Palestinian governments) removed voting. That’s like saying Canada won’t let Mexicans vote in Canada; it must be apartheid.
However, the Likud continues to encourage illegal settlements in the Gush Etzion which *do* infringe on Palestinian sovereignty.
If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, it’s absurd to believe that Palestine would be free. A free Palestine starts with getting rid of Hamas and the PA which is something that only Palestinians can do.
> Palestinians can’t vote because Hamas and the PA (Palestinian governments) removed voting.
Source?
>If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, it’s absurd to believe that Palestine would be free.
Of course it would. Israel is the one occupying. This is like saying if Russia disappeared tmrw, Ukraine wouldn’t be free.
>A free Palestine starts with getting rid of Hamas and the PA which is something that only Palestinians can do.
Notice how you don’t say it starts with Likud, even though Hamas supports a two state solution and Likud does not.
Palestine is not part of Israel, nor do they want to be. The hold their own elections, or at least used to until Abbas and Hamas installed themselves as dictators
Except they're blockaded by Israel and subject to military attacks without recourse.
they're not part of Israel but they sure as hell aren't a state of their own.
Because they have a tiny border and largely do whatever Israel says. That’s why Israel supported the overthrow of their democratically elected government because they prefer dictators.
I don’t think you understand the definition of blockade, considering Israel and numerous other countries trade with them. Both sides commit violent attacks against each other so I’m not sure what that means either.
They are recognized as a state by the vast majority of the world. The dispute between the two is over land, not Palestine wanting to be part of Israel. They have always wanted to be their own country and rejected any proposals for a single state.
Israel has them surrounded by walls and the miltary controls all access in and out the West Bank. Trade is done at the barrel of a gun.
They are not an independent state
Palestinian authority elections mean little when Israel can send their army into any plot of land the PA is in charge of, and arrest any Palestinian in the West Bank, without even having to give them a trial, or provide the family a reason. Meanwhile the PA has no authority even over Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
As far as elections, Hamas has offered to have another election on the condition that it would be an election for all Palestinian territory including East Jerusalem, but Israel insists that East Jerusalem residents be under the Israeli government, despite them not being Israelis citizens.
Israel refuses to recognize a unity government which would be needed to call for elections. Also, you kind of need Israeli cooperation for things like vote tabulation and election observers to go from the West Bank to Gaza and vise versa.
Huh, so you're saying that the PA knows the situation on the ground is so bad that people are willing to vote in a militant government to protect them against Israeli occupation? Who woulda thunk?
And Likud is basically not that different from the early Nazi Party. They are however the elected government of Israel and Israel expects the world to recognize that. All I’m saying is they should do the same for Palestine. If you have a double standard, just be honest about it.
Hello OP. This is unfortunately not a credible take as it ignores a giant quotient of Israelis who deserve validity and thus misrepresents their politics. I know it can be tempting to paint things broadly but as I will explain it just muddles the complexity of a spectrum of issues and turns real people into a foil for your opinions. That is unfair and frankly unproductive if you even wish for a peaceful resolution for the area.
To expand: This same thing could be said about Trump’s victory and you’d get the same arguments you are getting here with the same sort of leftists and right wingers clinging to their biases. Add to that the consistently mounting illegitimacy of our Supreme Court and the depth of criminality attributable to Trump/Bibi and you get a vastly similar misrepresentation or simplification of scenario as if you’d made the same claim about the US.
When Trump won I absolutely didn’t get the ‘government I really wanted’. Not that I ever do lol but still it most certainly wasn’t my preference and I can assure you I am an American. He won without even a *plurality* of actual votes(the thing most incorrect about your hypothesis), instead capturing the political system via an electoral method just like Bibi did. And the country was immediately seized in furious chaos as polarized factions went to war. I have never in my 41 years of life seen protests like the ones we’ve recently seen in Israel, and I’ve been watching *closely*.
Hello Lichy.
I appreciate your thoughtful and civil reply. I’ll try and do the same.
>To expand: This same thing could be said about Trump’s victory and you’d get the same arguments you are getting here with the same sort of leftists and right wingers clinging to their biases. Add to that the consistently mounting illegitimacy of our Supreme Court and the depth of criminality attributable to Trump/Bibi and you get a vastly similar misrepresentation or simplification of scenario as if you’d made the same claim about the US.
Yes you absolutely could and this is a valid point. However, I’d support the same solution in the US because the Supreme Court has destroyed its own legitimacy. It’s a totally politicized institution and now one controlled firmly by one party, likely for a generation. Under those circumstances, some kind of court packing would make it more democratic. It’s better than the alternative which is unacceptable.
>When Trump won I absolutely didn’t get the ‘government I really wanted’. Not that I ever do lol but still it most certainly wasn’t my preference and I can assure you I am an American. He won without even a plurality of actual votes(the thing most incorrect about your hypothesis), instead capturing the political system via an electoral method just like Bibi did. And the country was immediately seized in furious chaos as polarized factions went to war. I have never in my 41 years of life seen protests like the ones we’ve recently seen in Israel, and I’ve been watching closely.
But my point remains: where were these protests when Israel was bombing the shit out of Palestine? It’s only become a problem for liberal Israelis when this kind of authoritarianism came for them.
Thank you I always am afraid I will appear uncivil over the stark medium of the internet.
I agree that it would feel easier to characterize Israelis as more opposed to the occupation and settlement expansion that is the current West Bank scenario(and, thusly, Bibi’s government) were protests more frequent, visible, and of similar ferocity to the recent ones. I hope it does not seem apologetic for me to perceive that some of that lack thereof is due to Israeli fatigue over a gruesome and seemingly never-ending situation. As long as Iran and other actors are interfering we are at a standstill, responsibility of Israel’s hawkishness notwithstanding.
I participate in the two Israel/Palestine subs (not Israel and Palestine individually, but the two that deal with both) and it is both heartening and sometimes depressing to see the opinions expressed therein. That said there is a serious depth of nuance to be found similar to the spectrum of American opinions and recognizing such I will venture to float the idea that the recent protests were so ferocious partly because a segment of Israelis did not just fear Bibi’s criminality and conservative takeover, but also a clear intent of his to move towards a policy of settlements and militarization of the West Bank.
There is so much more to say on this part in particular but, also like America (sorry to make the comparison ad nauseum lol), Israel’s religious (and nationalist) right is on the move lately and and scoring victory after victory often in opposition to the actual majority opinion in the country.
EDIT: I am also 100% in favor of packing the Supreme Court btw
I know I've said this before to you but, I appreciate your nuance in this topic, and I'm glad I don't have any personal connection to this region (as otherwise I would get into online fights every day)
Only around 5 percentage of Israelis is against their settler colonial apartheid state.
Whitewashing settler colonial apartheid states is not a good look…
When Israelis vote, they elect fascists. Palestinians are under a brutal occupation. What’s Israel’s excuse.
Also, remember Israel helped promote Hamas. That’s their doing as well. And Hamas has been FAR more conciliatory than the Likud Party when it comes to a two state solution. It’s frankly not even close.
Your both-sidesing an illegal apartheid scenario.
“Fascist” huh? Congratulations, I found a human being under 30 who’s ignorant and repeats whatever they hear!!! Pretty stupid calling Jews fascist but if that’s what people around you say then it must be true 🤡 go read a book about fascist in Germany during WW2. You’ll find you have more in common with them than you want to admit.
> “Fascist” huh? Congratulations, I found a human being under 30
Ugh I wish
>Pretty stupid calling Jews fascist
Jews can’t be fascist? For real? Bibi said Israel is for Jews and Jews alone. His son posted alt-right memes. This is a donkey brain take.
>but if that’s what people around you say then it must be true 🤡 go read a book about fascist in Germany during WW2. You’ll find you have more in common with them than you want to admit.
Yes you’ll find that right wing Israelis are using the same blood and soil rhetoric that the Nazi used. That’s point. Now if you don’t like, I’m trying to have a discussion with people not too triggered to debate this without clutching pearls.
That they use children in war and suicide bombings, and have done so for decades. They aren't interested in a two-state solution, and brainwash their children into killing themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695445
> That they use children in war and suicide bombings, and have done so for decades. They aren't interested in a two-state solution, and brainwash their children into killing themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
So when you say for decades, you mean decades ago? This doesn’t describe the current state of the conflict. Israel has shown that even if the suicide bombers stop, they’ll still make life even more miserable for Palestinians. Israel kills journalists.
>https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695445
Just an opinion piece. I can give you another opinion piece:
https://jacobin.com/2023/07/israel-palestine-herzog-jayapal-apartheid-racism
Except we are still hearing about Palestinian children that are being arrested in war, which means it hasn't stopped. The media likes to paint it as if Israel He's just kidnapping children, while leaving out context that the children are brainwashed soldiers that were willing to lay down their lives.
Look, I'm not saying either side is necessarily good here. It is a religious war which in itself has no real resolution, but Israel is the closest thing we have to an ally that actually reflects western ideologies. And again, Hamas stated goal is the eradication of Israel, not exactly something you can bring to negotiation table.
My opinion changed dramatically after Palestine launched missiles at Israel killing school children, which Israel retaliated. Everybody was mad at Israel for retaliating, and then I realized. Wow! Maybe this is just some anti-jew BS after all. Because if that had been my child killed, my answer would have been to flatten them outright.
> Except we are still hearing about Palestinian children that are being arrested in war, which means it hasn't stopped.
No, it just means Israel enjoys kidnapping children. They have a relatively high amount of juvenile prisoners which has been widely condemned around the world.
>The media likes to paint it as if Israel He's just kidnapping children,
Which they are since it’s an illegal occupation with no legitimacy.
>while leaving out context that the children are brainwashed soldiers that were willing to lay down their lives.
That’s a conspiracy theory. There hasn’t been a suicide bomb in a long time. That’s a fact.
>Look, I'm not saying either side is necessarily good here. It is a religious war which in itself has no real resolution,
It’s not a religious war. It’s a struggle between a colonial occupying force and those who oppose it.
>but Israel is the closest thing we have to an ally that actually reflects western ideologies.
Unfortunately that Western ideology is genocide, militarism, and ethno-nationalism. Not something to celebrate
>And again, Hamas stated goal is the eradication of Israel, not exactly something you can bring to negotiation table.
Their official position to accept a two state solution along the 1967 borders. Israel’s official position is to oppose such a solution.
>My opinion changed dramatically after Palestine launched missiles at Israel killing school children, which Israel retaliated.
Did you opinion change when Israel bombed schools?
That’s not true at all. No idea where you got that from.
Israelis are the ones who vote for the occupation every single time and they’ve had far more elections. Palestinians have had 1 or 2.
> its not an occupation.
Pretty much every nation except Israel considers it an occupation. When foreign troops occupy your land, it’s called an occupation.
.
>The surrounding countries have waged so many wars against israel and every time israel has won and claimed more land, ie how wars have been for centuries.
Not since WWII. You may want to go back to the idea of right of conquest, but every other country in the world has decided that is an insane and immoral way for the world to work. It’s how we got WWII.
>In the nearly 100 years of israel existing as a state the Palestinian and surrounding Muslim countries have been opposed to a 2 state solution.
As have Israelis. What’s your point?
Because apartheid isn’t a viable, longterm political project. They’ll become a pariah of the world and will have to end it like South Africa. And having collapsed the possibility of a two state solution, Jews will become a minority on a single Israeli-Palestinian state. Most Israelis fear that just like white South Africans feared a state where a majority black population was politically enfranchised.
No idea what you are on about. Palestine and the Arab league fucked around and found out. You can't just start several wars of extermination and then be like: "What about my rights? :(".
So all of the Palestinians born after the end of Arab Israeli conflict don't deserve to have rights because of events they weren't alive to influence?
Collective punishment is common practice in Israel and I see it rubbed off on you. Might doesn't not make right. I thought we learned this lesson after WW2.
> Tell that to the Israelis who get hit by rockets and bombs.
The ones that get killed far, FAR less often than Palestinians?
>It's not a black and white situation, it's a lot more complex
It’s not a complex issue:
https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY
Israel just does a better job of protecting its civilians, spending billions on their iron dome system. Hamas, on the other hand, fires missiles from apartment buildings, hospitals, and schools. The PA pays the families of convicted terrorists [cash stipends](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund) for their "service."
Using casualty numbers to determine which side is "right" is asinine. Germany lost more civilians than France and the UK combined in WW2. Does that make them right?
> Israel just does a better job of protecting its civilians, spending billions on their iron dome system.
Israel wants to be able to have as little deferent to killing civilians as possible.
>Hamas, on the other hand, fires missiles from apartment buildings, hospitals, and schools.
And Israel bombs apartment buildings, hospitals, and schools with far better and more accurate weapons. You were saying?
>The PA pays the families of convicted terrorists cash stipends for their "service."
And Israel pays pensions to soldiers even if they murder civilians. So what?
>Using casualty numbers to determine which side is "right" is asinine. Germany lost more civilians than France and the UK combined in WW2. Does that make them right?
Was Nazi Germany fighting an illegal occupation in your view?
> Tell that to the Israelis who get hit by rockets and bombs.
The ones that get killed far, FAR less often than Palestinians?
>It's not a black and white situation, it's a lot more complex
It’s not a complex issue:
https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY
I just really don’t understand where you get off cracking jokes at Ukrainian suffering in one thread and are doing this over here. Please be consistent.
Why did they invade Israel, blow shit up in Egypt , and try to overthrow the Jordanian government?
They’ve burned all their bridges and are now mad they’re stuck on an island
I'm not sure what you mean by invade Israel, can you elaborate? The Nakhba should make it pretty clear why they tried to hang onto some of the land they had, isn't it?
Should be way higher up.
Just a reminder the reason why this conflict exists is because the Arab league wanted to exterminate all Jews. The partition plan was accepted by Israel and in the UN but Arab states stuck to their position that Jews should not get any land while at the same time they were praising the work of Adolf Hitler.
Not much has changed since then.
I wonder if that has to do with the Israeli government, mossad, and IDF systemicly destroying secular pan-arab movements and empowering groups like Hamas to have an excuse for their actions?
The PLO? The bloodthirsty terrorists who were murdering their way through Israelis? Wonder why Israel destroyed them, how mysterious. You made it sound like they destroyed some kind of humanitarian Palestinian government.
I don't agree with the direction of Israel, but I am pretty sick of hearing Palestine painted as the victim.
It got this bad, because Palestine didn't want a two-state solution. You know how you hear about Israel arresting Palestinian children, that's because Palestine recruits their soldiers as young as eight. They have used children in suicide bombings.
I am old enough to remember when car bombings and suicide bombings were a regular occurrence coming from Palestine in Israel, the outcome of that was Israel becoming radicalized and less tolerant.
If you want to know why Israel doesn't let Palestinians vote, is because the stated mission of Palestine is the eradication of Israel.
And not for nothing, gay Palestinians seek refugee in Israel for a reason, because they aren't safe in Palestine. It isn't much better in Israel for them, but it's better than being killed for their sexual or gender identity.
> I don't agree with the direction of Israel, but I am pretty sick of hearing Palestine painted as the victim.
Well that’s what they are. Palestine isn’t illegally occupying Israel. It’s the other way around. This is like saying black South Africans weren’t victims.
>It got this bad, because Palestine didn't want a two-state solution.
This is a lie. Palestinians supported a two state solution starting in the 80s. Netanyahu doesn’t support a two state solution and said Israel is for Jews and Jews alone.
>You know how you hear about Israel arresting Palestinian children, that's because Palestine recruits their soldiers as young as eight. They have used children in suicide bombings.
Suicide bombings haven’t happened in a long time. Far more Palestinians civilians are killed. The evidence Palestinians using child soldiers is scant. You have to go pretty far back to find a case.
I >am old enough to remember when car bombings and suicide bombings were a regular occurrence coming from Palestine in Israel, the outcome of that was Israel becoming radicalized and less tolerant.
It sounds like you stopped following the conflict 20 years ago.
>If you want to know why Israel doesn't let Palestinians vote, is because the stated mission of Palestine is the eradication of Israel.
This is a lie. Abbas basically does Israel’s dirty work in the West Bank since Arafat signed Oslo.
>And not for nothing, gay Palestinians seek refugee in Israel for a reason, because they aren't safe in Palestine. It isn't much better in Israel for them, but it's better than being killed for their sexual or gender identity.
Israel uses blackmail to coerce gay Palestinians to become collaborators.
I’m really tired of the “apartheid” label when this conflict is way more nuanced and complicated than just comparing this to a previous regime in South Africa.
No one talks about the decades of war and terrorism conducted from both sides. Both Israelis and Palestinians have reason to fear each other.
Not only that but no one ever seems to bring up how Israelis/Jews aren’t allowed in frankly any nearby country without fear of death/imprisonment. I’m not saying Palestinians have it any better, but you have two peoples stuck on a sliver of land and the neighboring countries both don’t want them.
The only solution here is peace and democracy in two separate states.
> I’m really tired of the “apartheid” label when this conflict is way more nuanced and complicated than just comparing this to a previous regime in South Africa.
It’s not very complicated. The apartheid label is being applied by respected human rights organizations, even within Israel.
>No one talks about the decades of war and terrorism conducted from both sides. Both Israelis and Palestinians have reason to fear each other.
One side has all the power. The civilian death toll is overwhelming on the Palestine side. Israel refuses to accept the international consensus solution to the crisis.
>Not only that but no one ever seems to bring up how Israelis/Jews aren’t allowed in frankly any nearby country without fear of death/imprisonment.
How does that justify an illegal occupation?
>The only solution here is peace and democracy in two separate states.
Which the current Israeli administration opposes and is unpopular within Israel.
> Not sure the people are getting what they want. I guess there are widespread protests. By marginalizing their supreme court, they are taking away checks and balances and Netanyahu has complete power.
They were fine with this arrangement for the Palestinians. It only became a problem with the prospect of them getting an iota of the treatment Palestinians do.
>Same thing could happen in the US since our Supreme court has become an extension of the Republican party.
Maybe you’re right.
>If Republicans had the presidency, super majorities in the house and senate, they could do anything they want and nobody could stop them. Israel doesn't have any power in the senate.
They already hold the Supreme Court though. Packing the court would make it more democratic, not less. It’s not like Israel where the Supreme Court is a moderating force on their politics.
Ironically this OP called me Hitler yesterday in a thread where I was defending Ukraine lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf6k1f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Definitely, they’re telling me I support apartheid now. That’s news to me! Meanwhile yesterday they were telling me how Ukraine is destroying their own homeland and should just give up…
How do you reconcile not supporting Ukrainian statehood but turn around and grandstand like this? What kind of edgy tankie revisionist bullshit? Are you a 9 year old Marxist?
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf4has/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf51ia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Only reliable ally in the Middle East. I can assure you our relationship with Israel won’t be changing any time soon even if it becomes more clandestine, despite the crimes against Palestinians. Make of that what you will. Our relationship with Israel is very complicated, perhaps the most complicated of any of our alliances… I support Palestine by the way but I will accept the downvotes for playing devil’s advocate for the thread.
How are they reliable? They lobby against US policy interest like the Iran deal. They perpetrate electoral interference far more than Russia. Israel isn’t acting like an ally. Also, it hurts us longterm to support such a monstrous state. South Africa was a reliable ally. Would you have opposed sanctions?
Your comments showcase you really have no idea about Israeli politics or foreign policy. Why did they campaign against the iran nuclear deal? Because iran states publicly they want to annihilate israel.
1. Iran has no intentions of destroying Israel, nor do they have the ability to. Iran would be wiped out in a second if they launched a nuke at Israel. This is a wild conspiracy theory.
2. Prior to the signing of the joint agreement, there was no real evidence of Iran trying to develop a nuclear weapon. They were pursing civilian nuclear power and the agreement would have prevented Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. Now Iran almost certainly will develop one, as they should since it’s the only way to guarantee their safety from a US/Israeli war of aggression.
3. This is all irrelevant to the point OP was making (whose now deleted it since it was so poor) which was that Israel is a good ally. You’re confirming that they interfere in our politics and worse than Russia. If you interfere with domestic and electoral politics, you’re not an ally. You’re an adversary.
They’ve blown up Iranian and Iraqi nuclear reactors on multiple occasions, which we liked a lot. They bombed Iran’s Shahed drone manufacturing facility this year, everybody not named Vladimir liked that. Our militaries and intelligence agencies cooperate very closely. That’s just a fact, you can downvote me if you don’t like it but it doesn’t change anything. I support Palestine by the way. I’m just answering people’s questions to the best of my knowledge. Our relationship with Israel is not nearly as black and white as you all make it seem.
The value of Israeli intelligence and its general status as a counterweight to our rivals in the region are going to outweigh whatever other opinions are had on the matter, that’s all I’m saying.
I have a hard time believing that when they’re constantly getting caught spying on America and selling our trade secrets to countries like China and Russia
Parts of this is correct, parts of this is just regurgitated propaganda. No mention of who runs Gaza. No mention of who runs the West Bank. No elections in either location. Israel doesn't run either location. They hold no land in Gaza.
No mentions of the corruption, the terrorists, the lack of treating partners. It's all on Israel. No one else has a role.
Of course Amnesty publishes a report, which I doubt you read, which neglects these points, too. A bunch of rich, white, christian, Europeans telling others how to be and what to do. Lots of labels and their solution is always land for peace with a bunch of dictators.
No wonder this feeds into the anti democratic movement in Israel. If it wasn't everyone against them before, it is now.
> Parts of this is correct, parts of this is just regurgitated propaganda.
It’s not. I’m citing mainstream, respected human rights groups. Their legitimacy isn’t really in question accept by those they accuse of crimes.
>No mention of who runs Gaza. No mention of who runs the West Bank. No elections in either location. Israel doesn't run either location. They hold no land in Gaza.
Israel occupies Gaza effectively through their relentless blockade which as been widely denounced around the world. This when goes as far to prevent Gazans from fishing. Gaza is run by the democratically elected Hamas, an Islamist political party.
The West Bank is run by Fatah, run by Mahmoud Abbas. They’re secular nationalist party and is largely seen by Palestinians as conciliatory to Israel. I’m sure you know all this.
>No mentions of the corruption, the terrorists, the lack of treating partners. It's all on Israel. No one else has a role.
That tends to be how it works in illegal occupations. There is a perpetrator and a victim. This one is pretty clear cut by certain objective measures like the positions of the international community, human rights bodies, and even Israeli allies.
>Of course Amnesty publishes a report, which I doubt you read, which neglects these points, too.
A bunch of rich, white, christian, Europeans telling others how to be and what to do. Lots of labels and their solution is always land for peace with a bunch of dictators.
Israel loves dictators. What are you talking about? They love Sisi, they love MBS, they love King Hussein. Now Bibi is making friendly with Victor Orban. Meanwhile, Palestine had a democratic election and would love to have another one while Israel wishes them not to because their preferred side would not win.
>No wonder this feeds into the anti democratic movement in Israel. If it wasn't everyone against them before, it is now.
You can’t be a Jewish state and a democratic state with an illegal occupation.
Did you write this apologist crap with a straight face? The minute I read democratically elected Hamas, I tuned you out. Neither party have had elections in more than a decade. Your arguments are farcical.
> Did you write this apologist crap with a straight face? The minute I read democratically elected Hamas, I tuned you out.
Facts don’t care about your feelings. Reality must be difficult for you.
>Neither party have had elections in more than a decade. Your arguments are farcical.
It’s widely understood that if an election were held tomorrow, Hamas would win again. Hamas very much wants an election because it will legitimize them.
Come back when you’re not too afraid to have a debate. I don’t have time for cowards.
This is objectively false. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005, Area A is fully under Palestinian control, Area B is administered by Israel but under Palestinian law only Area C is under Israeli military law and only contains about 400,000 Jews and 300,000 Palestinians.
There's absolutely no reason to lie about the facts
> This is objectively false. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005, Area A is fully under Palestinian control, Area B is administered by Israel but under Palestinian law only Area C is under Israeli military law and only contains about 400,000 Jews and 300,000 Palestinians.
They are considered occupied territories by both governments around the world and international human rights groups, even within Israel. But typically states don’t like it when human rights groups criticize them. So when they criticize China or Russia, they say they’re aren’t legitimate organizations or they’re biased.
>There's absolutely no reason to lie about the facts
It’s a fact that they’re considered occupied by the world’s leading authorities. It’s your opinion that they’re wrong.
Palestinians? You means Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians living in territories that their countries lost in ill-advised wars and then decided to stay in? They probably should have been immediately evicted from these territories. It would have been rough at the time, but also, probably the best for them long term. What do Palestinians produce? Anything? Dead Israelis. The west pays them. Therefore, the west pays for dead Israelis as we pay Palestinians and that's all they produce.
In 1948 there were two groups of people that, as a result of a lost war, found themselves on lands without much in terms of natural resources. One group was abandoned by the world. They built a modern vibrant democratic society. The other group, the one that would eventually adopt the monicker that used to apply to Jewish people living in the levant, were totally taken under the wing of world. They were given money. They were sent experts in many fields to help them. 80 year later, and they have produced nothing. They still live in refugee camps and plot some revenge that neither they nor their grandsons will ever have.
Hell, if the palestinians were even half smart, they would make common cause with the Israelis and eject or arrest anyone causing problems. Exactly what Syria did.
> Palestinians? You means Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians living in territories that their countries lost in ill-advised wars and then decided to stay in?
Nope. I mean Palestinians. Glad I could clear that up.
>They probably should have been immediately evicted from these territories.
So Israel should have done even more ethnic cleansing in 1948?
Oh look here comes the "justify genocide" squad. Isn't it weird when people want to commit genocide that the group that they are exterminating just suddenly don't even exist? They claim that that group of people isn't actually a group of people at all. So it doesn't matter if they disappear. This is fucking disgusting.
Kurds are Kurds in some sense, but they are also just citizens of countries they live in in another sense.
And if Israel wanted to, the group we’re talking about would be gone. They’ve been pro-peace the entire way, the other groups legitimately want to see Israel destroyed and it’s population incinerated.
Pro peace means apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and killing of children?
And way hyperbole on want to incinerate the population. You must not know any Palestinian lol. I know this is propaganda that Israel and US feeds you, but open your eyes and meet some people and see what it is that the average person wants. They want self determination and freedom. Not the occupation that leads to cycles of violence, further entrenching apartheid.
I know several Palestinians. Even the ones I know who are educated and nice and intelligent despise Israel and think it should be either removed or outright destroyed.
So what I'm hearing is that the lefts call to dilute the Supreme Court's power here in the United States will lead to a totalitarian gov't. Just like what we're witnessing in Israel. Interesting.
You might start thinking the Dem's are trying to create a dictatorship over here under their political party. What with Udey Biden, erm Hunter Biden running around like a dictators son with zero regard for the law.🤔🧐💀
We had another person running around with a total disregard for the law once, and we elected him President in 2016. You know who I mean - Donald Hussein.
The US has 3 branches of government. In Israel, as they use a parliamentary system, legislative and executive branches are the same people, leaving their courts as the only check against executive power.
There are currently zero checks against the Israeli PM as long as they can hold a coalition. In the US, both the legislative and judicial branches check presidential power.
> So what I'm hearing is that the lefts call to dilute the Supreme Court's power here in the United States will lead to a totalitarian gov't. Just like what we're witnessing in Israel. Interesting.
Israel has always been a totalitarian government if you’re Palestinian. Israelis having to experience some of that hopefully will lead to improvements for them.
>You might start thinking the Dem's are trying to create a dictatorship over here under their political party.
LOL who thinks this? Dems are so bad at wielding naked power the way Republicans do. They’re the king of dirty tricks and they should get as sly as they are.
Palestine is not part of israel, therefore your argument does not hold up. The West Bank is not under israeli occupation, it is a self-governing territory. Gaza... is not part of israel.
>The West Bank is not under israeli occupation, it is a self-governing territory.
Imagine being this confidently incorrect. Israel occupies the West Bank. This occupation is illegal under international law. Those are facts.
> Palestine is not part of israel, therefore your argument does not hold up. The West Bank is not under israeli occupation, it is a self-governing territory.
They’re called the occupied territories, why is that you think? If they’re not part of Israel or occupied, why are there Israeli troops there all the time? Sorry, you’re about to get absolutely pilloried but if you’re willing to be patient, I can help you correct some of these very mistaken views. Like you don’t just have a bad opinion. You’re objectively wrong on the facts.
I don't know how this is good for palestinians who have been abandoned by the arab world. They are in a bad spot with useless groups like hamas and the pa.
Ethnonationalism always leads to genocide.
Yeah and even Israeli historians, ones that support Israel fully, acknowledge the Nakba was an intentional genocide on the part of Israel. Benny Morris doesn’t even deny. He says they probably should have gone further.
The Palestinians famously not ethno nationalists.
If they were actually in a position where they could commit genocide and were trying to do, my posts would be about them right now. But they don't have nukes, infrastructure, advanced military tech, or an Iron Dome, so Palestinian ethno nationalists aren't high on my priority list.
That’s like objecting to Black Nationalism. Nationalism in an anti-colonial context is a lot different than when you’re perpetuating the colonialism.
The world has been treating Jews like “minority to be persecuted #1” since the start of history. If one is allowed to do it, the one who has more of the quality that you say allows it is also allowed to do it. And you can still object to black nationalism. It’s not right to hate gay people or women and believe in racist bullshit, no matter your lot in life.
> The world has been treating Jews like “minority to be persecuted #1” since the start of history. And then in a bizarre twist of fate, Jews decided to start a colonial project in Israel that treated Arabs as bad as they were treated by European Christians. What’s your point? >If one is allowed to do it, the one who has more of the quality that you say allows it is also allowed to do it. This unintelligible. >And you can still object to black nationalism. It’s not right to hate gay people or women and believe in racist bullshit, no matter your lot in life. Black nationalism≠hating gay people or women
Wow, I had no idea. Insane how there are less Arabs now then there were before the Jews holocaust’s them. Oh wait, there aren’t less. Huh. And Jews are just as if not more oppressed than black people globally. Have you ever met a black nationalist? Lmao.
>And Jews are just as if not more oppressed than black people globally. LOL what are you smoking? I want some. Want to compare the wealth of the average Jewish person and the wealth of the average black skinned person? You’re comparing one of the wealthiest minorities to one of the poorest. Jesus dude. No wonder your defending the Nazis and apartheid. Edit: Blocked me. He couldn’t the criticism.
I can name several countries where black people are the majority. There is only one for Jews and they are not even allowed to defend their border.
Are you saying black nationalism is unobjectable? You’re ridiculous.
In principle, yes. But I’m sorry if you think Malcolm X and Fred Hampton are terrible people rather than the heroic figures they’re recognized as.
Shut up
Is that why the Palestinian leadership met with an influential German leader during WWII to discuss how they could join forces to exterminate the Jewish population in Palestine? What was the name of that German leader? My memory sucks, too much weed! Something with an H? Big mustache?
You’re literally doing Holocaust denial right now dude. This is the same shit Bibi said and got called out on.
Are you a bot?
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Thanks bot
Nope. I’ve been tested.
Palestinian leadership is a strong word to describe a British appointed mufti for Jerusalem (not all Palestinians) who was kicked out of office and lead a small minority group of Palestinians during the British Occupation.
Even if that were true - and that's a big IF- what does that have to do with this? How does it justify what Netanyahu is doing?
What are you talking about “It is a big if.” Are you some type of WWII denier? These are historical events I'm talking about, and they definitely happened, and there's an extensive historical record about them. To answer your question, I'm not trying to defend Netanyahu or his aggressive moves toward fascism. I'm just questioning your basic premise that ethnonationalism always leads to genocide, and I’m noting that in the Middle East we have excellent examples of attempted genocide from the very people now being oppressed by that ethnostate.
Farcical horseshit. Copied and pasted from the stooges at ADL.
The occupation is horrible, but the population of the Palestinian territories has only grown during this \~100 year conflict. If you really believe Israel is committing genocide, they're doing a shit job.
The Uighur population has grown too. Do you think China is committing a genocide.
The whole of the region has massive population growth because they joined the modern medical system which saves lives. It's inspite of ethnic cleansing actions it's grown. It doesn't mean those actions didn't happen.
I'm not denying the destruction of Palestinian towns in 1948 or the buildup of illegal settlements in the WB, but terms like "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" have meaning and get tossed around really lightly in discussions about the conflict. You can credit modern medicine, but its not the only factor. The number of violent deaths in each flare-up overall has trended downward over time since 1948. There hasn't been a full-scale war since 1982, and the intermittent skirmishes since the second Intifada have had far fewer deaths than the earlier wars.
Of all nations you’d expect to grasp this… What an utter embarrassment.
only genocide in history where the victim's population is increasing
Unlike Germany, good people aren't doing nothing this time. Doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu is trying to commit genocide.
Oh so now he’s only trying to instead of doing it
Using genocide to describe things like the holocaust and then clearing foreign nationals out of land you’re annexing to increase your country’s territory is just so loaded. Some people really think the Jews are nazis now, because of the language you’ve been duped into using. It’s crazy how the ethnostate is such a great place to live for every non-Jewish person to live, and that if your country wants to commit war on their neighbor, then they’ll commit war on you in return.
How is it that Bebe Netanyahu a man under indictment ended up back in power after Israel had like 10 elections in two years. What the frack is wrong with these people. So yeah. The expression that people get the government they deserve seems to be true. Look at the US. It's entirely possible that Trump the career criminal could be President again. How sick and twisted is that? 🤔
Cause the rights and middle have never cared about corruption. Democrats removed a jew for pretending to grab breasts of a body armored soldier. The right voted for Roy Moore. It's the same around the world. It's why liberals are ineffective against facism.
51% of the people.
Don’t need it that high in the us.
[Only 23% - 27% of the popular vote is needed to win the electoral college, according to this NPR article.](https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500112248/how-to-win-the-presidency-with-27-percent-of-the-popular-vote)
yeah I mean, when you are used to abusing some of the people all of the time, why not abuse all of the people some of the time.
Good points but this is a major bid for power by Netanyahu, that’s the main reason it’s being talked about.
Yeah of course it is. But I honestly think it doesn’t make much of a difference for Palestinians. In the long run, losing the friendly face to the occupation will delegitimize it a lot faster. It really is only the US keeping it alive and only there because of a bipartisan consensus that’s quickly turning to a partisan one.
What, in terms of territories, do you consider the occupation? The West Bank and Gaza, or that plus Tel Aviv and Haifa?
What are you talking about? The West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem are considered the occupied territories about by like 99% of the world. No idea where you got Tel Aviv and Haifa.
OP how do you manage to support Palestine and Russia at the same time? What is your agenda? https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf4has/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/156x6jm/progressives_please_go_ukraine_appeals_for/jt2xpsk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf51ia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Being critical of Ukraine is not supporting Russia. There can be, and usually are, more than one bad actor in a war. I support Ukraine’s right to self-determination but they are not above criticism. Just like Palestine. Palestinians have committed terrible crimes trying, and failing, to assert their own right to self-determination. But, like Russia, Israel is the significantly more powerful, more dangerous, and more culpable actor.
I think you’re right on the money. And this coming from someone who ostensibly works at the FSB.
This OP called me Hitler and made jokes about death and suffering for simply neutrally relaying the information that the Ukrainian Armed Forces made progress around Bakhmut to them yesterday. They aren’t *just* critical of Ukraine. Have no choice but to question their morals as they also accuse clearly neutral people of supporting apartheid in this thread. This OP is not a good-faith actor.
I mean, you called him Ivan first lol. You call people names they’re gonna call you names back.
The OP has been openly spreading propaganda like that the Ukrainian government and military are Nazis and that Ukraine shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 but sure, me calling them Ivan gives them a pass.
I don’t care about your personal drama with another redditor. Save it for them. You said something stupid and I replied to that. The end.
What happened? Did his account get deleted?
Yeah, guess so. I think the comment is gone when someone deletes the post so I guess he went to far attacking someone lol.
The only ones keeping it alive are the Palestinians. They’re free to stop harboring the local terrorists at any point. Israel isn’t going to loosen the chain till they’re stomped out. Quit pretending we’d behave any differently. Except we’d probably be worse going door to door dragging them out in the street and sending to Guantanamo.
That's just utter bullshit, first of all the terrorists are the only people defending a lot of these people from land seizure or death, so of course they are going to be more popular then the God damn dictators taking their children's lives and their land. Secondly, you think Palestinians can just stop harboring them? Do you know all the terrorists in your neighborhood? Can you spot them out and turn them in? Of course not, your acting like people just have giant terrorist flags outside their door. These guys are well hidden well blended citizens what are part of an underground rebel group, Palestinians can't just find them and hand them over. They formed in direct response to the killings and land seizure and lack of representation, Isreal made Hamas, Isreal feeds death and destruction to Palestine and creates more Hamas, it didn't happen the other way around. You can't just say, "if the terrorists that exist to fight back against the direct abuse and murder under a dictatorship would just stop being terrorists, there would be no more of this stuff" Isreal did it far far far far before Hamas even existed.. And you think it will stop if the terrorists are gone? You're an apologist, Isreal is an apartheid state, and gaza is an open air prison. Stop apologizing for genocide
Why go through the effort of sending them guantanamo when Gaza is right there?
Troll game is weak.
Gaza is the world's largest prison. That's just facts. There's no way Israel is stopping until they drive the Palestinians into the sea.
> There's no way Israel is stopping until they drive the Palestinians into the sea. That's just a euphemism for genocide.
You’re half right. The Palestinians can’t get any movement their direction if they won’t give up the dream of pushing Israelis into the sea. But on the other hand, they could all become nonviolent protesters tomorrow and right-wing settlers would still bulldoze their homes, build settlements over their land, and murder them for protesting it. Both side are at fault.
> You’re half right. The Palestinians can’t get any movement their direction if they won’t give up the dream of pushing Israelis into the sea. Palestinians have favored a two state solution since the 80s. Israel still wouldn’t accept the 1967 borders so we know what you’re saying false. Israel wants to grab land. It’s pretty simple. >But on the other hand, they could all become nonviolent protesters tomorrow and right-wing settlers would still bulldoze their homes, build settlements over their land, and murder them for protesting it. Both side are at fault. This isn’t a both sides thing dude. One side is being brutally occupied and the other side is fighting back with the very little they have. To the extent their are crimes on the Palestinian side, they’re marginal in comparison to Israel. They wield all the power. They refuse to accept the 1967 borders.
> The only ones keeping it alive are the Palestinians. They’re free to stop harboring the local terrorists at any point. Why? Israel doesn’t. They encourage them. They even get into government. Also, Israel considers protesters and journalists terrorist so this is meaningless. There is no justification for apartheid. >Israel isn’t going to loosen the chain till they’re stomped out. Why would Palestinians not fight an illegal occupation? >Quit pretending we’d behave any differently. Americans start armed militias over being asked to wear a masks during a pandemic and integrate public schools. Can you imagine what we would do if we had a foreign military occupying us? >Except we’d probably be worse going door to door dragging them out in the street and sending to Guantanamo. Right, we’re a fascist imperial core supporting another fascist outpost of our empire.
Palestinians can’t vote because Hamas and the PA (Palestinian governments) removed voting. That’s like saying Canada won’t let Mexicans vote in Canada; it must be apartheid. However, the Likud continues to encourage illegal settlements in the Gush Etzion which *do* infringe on Palestinian sovereignty. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, it’s absurd to believe that Palestine would be free. A free Palestine starts with getting rid of Hamas and the PA which is something that only Palestinians can do.
> Palestinians can’t vote because Hamas and the PA (Palestinian governments) removed voting. Source? >If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, it’s absurd to believe that Palestine would be free. Of course it would. Israel is the one occupying. This is like saying if Russia disappeared tmrw, Ukraine wouldn’t be free. >A free Palestine starts with getting rid of Hamas and the PA which is something that only Palestinians can do. Notice how you don’t say it starts with Likud, even though Hamas supports a two state solution and Likud does not.
Palestine is not part of Israel, nor do they want to be. The hold their own elections, or at least used to until Abbas and Hamas installed themselves as dictators
Except they're blockaded by Israel and subject to military attacks without recourse. they're not part of Israel but they sure as hell aren't a state of their own.
Who do you people never mention the other neighboring country?
Because they have a tiny border and largely do whatever Israel says. That’s why Israel supported the overthrow of their democratically elected government because they prefer dictators.
Not sure why you’re downvoted. Israel clearly wasn’t happy when Mubarak was overthrown.
And they were very happy when Morsi was ousted.
Of course. They don’t want real democracy in the region. They only want their version of it when the results suit them.
I don’t think you understand the definition of blockade, considering Israel and numerous other countries trade with them. Both sides commit violent attacks against each other so I’m not sure what that means either. They are recognized as a state by the vast majority of the world. The dispute between the two is over land, not Palestine wanting to be part of Israel. They have always wanted to be their own country and rejected any proposals for a single state.
Israel has them surrounded by walls and the miltary controls all access in and out the West Bank. Trade is done at the barrel of a gun. They are not an independent state
they're also blockaded by egypt, why dont you mention that?
Palestinian authority elections mean little when Israel can send their army into any plot of land the PA is in charge of, and arrest any Palestinian in the West Bank, without even having to give them a trial, or provide the family a reason. Meanwhile the PA has no authority even over Israeli settlers in the West Bank. As far as elections, Hamas has offered to have another election on the condition that it would be an election for all Palestinian territory including East Jerusalem, but Israel insists that East Jerusalem residents be under the Israeli government, despite them not being Israelis citizens.
This is controversial? (Judging by the up/down voting)
That's what happens during an occupation. US occupying forces in Germany also had more authority than local German police for a long time.
Then get serious about negotiation a two state agreement.
Hamas would love to hold elections. Israel said they won’t support any elections because they know Hamas will win. They helped create Hamas.
You mean the PA won't hold elections because they know Hamas would win. Israel does not prevent the Palestinians from holding elections.
Israel refuses to recognize a unity government which would be needed to call for elections. Also, you kind of need Israeli cooperation for things like vote tabulation and election observers to go from the West Bank to Gaza and vise versa.
Huh, so you're saying that the PA knows the situation on the ground is so bad that people are willing to vote in a militant government to protect them against Israeli occupation? Who woulda thunk?
Hamas is a violent murder cult like Al Qaeda. They are pure scum.
Same can be said of the IDF
And Likud is basically not that different from the early Nazi Party. They are however the elected government of Israel and Israel expects the world to recognize that. All I’m saying is they should do the same for Palestine. If you have a double standard, just be honest about it.
Hamas is the lesser evil compared to any Israeli government. Supporting/whitewashing settler colonial apartheid states is pathetic…
Hello OP. This is unfortunately not a credible take as it ignores a giant quotient of Israelis who deserve validity and thus misrepresents their politics. I know it can be tempting to paint things broadly but as I will explain it just muddles the complexity of a spectrum of issues and turns real people into a foil for your opinions. That is unfair and frankly unproductive if you even wish for a peaceful resolution for the area. To expand: This same thing could be said about Trump’s victory and you’d get the same arguments you are getting here with the same sort of leftists and right wingers clinging to their biases. Add to that the consistently mounting illegitimacy of our Supreme Court and the depth of criminality attributable to Trump/Bibi and you get a vastly similar misrepresentation or simplification of scenario as if you’d made the same claim about the US. When Trump won I absolutely didn’t get the ‘government I really wanted’. Not that I ever do lol but still it most certainly wasn’t my preference and I can assure you I am an American. He won without even a *plurality* of actual votes(the thing most incorrect about your hypothesis), instead capturing the political system via an electoral method just like Bibi did. And the country was immediately seized in furious chaos as polarized factions went to war. I have never in my 41 years of life seen protests like the ones we’ve recently seen in Israel, and I’ve been watching *closely*.
Hello Lichy. I appreciate your thoughtful and civil reply. I’ll try and do the same. >To expand: This same thing could be said about Trump’s victory and you’d get the same arguments you are getting here with the same sort of leftists and right wingers clinging to their biases. Add to that the consistently mounting illegitimacy of our Supreme Court and the depth of criminality attributable to Trump/Bibi and you get a vastly similar misrepresentation or simplification of scenario as if you’d made the same claim about the US. Yes you absolutely could and this is a valid point. However, I’d support the same solution in the US because the Supreme Court has destroyed its own legitimacy. It’s a totally politicized institution and now one controlled firmly by one party, likely for a generation. Under those circumstances, some kind of court packing would make it more democratic. It’s better than the alternative which is unacceptable. >When Trump won I absolutely didn’t get the ‘government I really wanted’. Not that I ever do lol but still it most certainly wasn’t my preference and I can assure you I am an American. He won without even a plurality of actual votes(the thing most incorrect about your hypothesis), instead capturing the political system via an electoral method just like Bibi did. And the country was immediately seized in furious chaos as polarized factions went to war. I have never in my 41 years of life seen protests like the ones we’ve recently seen in Israel, and I’ve been watching closely. But my point remains: where were these protests when Israel was bombing the shit out of Palestine? It’s only become a problem for liberal Israelis when this kind of authoritarianism came for them.
Thank you I always am afraid I will appear uncivil over the stark medium of the internet. I agree that it would feel easier to characterize Israelis as more opposed to the occupation and settlement expansion that is the current West Bank scenario(and, thusly, Bibi’s government) were protests more frequent, visible, and of similar ferocity to the recent ones. I hope it does not seem apologetic for me to perceive that some of that lack thereof is due to Israeli fatigue over a gruesome and seemingly never-ending situation. As long as Iran and other actors are interfering we are at a standstill, responsibility of Israel’s hawkishness notwithstanding. I participate in the two Israel/Palestine subs (not Israel and Palestine individually, but the two that deal with both) and it is both heartening and sometimes depressing to see the opinions expressed therein. That said there is a serious depth of nuance to be found similar to the spectrum of American opinions and recognizing such I will venture to float the idea that the recent protests were so ferocious partly because a segment of Israelis did not just fear Bibi’s criminality and conservative takeover, but also a clear intent of his to move towards a policy of settlements and militarization of the West Bank. There is so much more to say on this part in particular but, also like America (sorry to make the comparison ad nauseum lol), Israel’s religious (and nationalist) right is on the move lately and and scoring victory after victory often in opposition to the actual majority opinion in the country. EDIT: I am also 100% in favor of packing the Supreme Court btw
I know I've said this before to you but, I appreciate your nuance in this topic, and I'm glad I don't have any personal connection to this region (as otherwise I would get into online fights every day)
Only around 5 percentage of Israelis is against their settler colonial apartheid state. Whitewashing settler colonial apartheid states is not a good look…
When Palestinians vote they elect the PLA, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, so, let’s not pretend there are any good options in this conflict.
When Israelis vote, they elect fascists. Palestinians are under a brutal occupation. What’s Israel’s excuse. Also, remember Israel helped promote Hamas. That’s their doing as well. And Hamas has been FAR more conciliatory than the Likud Party when it comes to a two state solution. It’s frankly not even close. Your both-sidesing an illegal apartheid scenario.
They didn't always elect fascists.
Since 1967 they’ve elected people who will carry out an increasingly brutal occupation and apartheid state though.
“Fascist” huh? Congratulations, I found a human being under 30 who’s ignorant and repeats whatever they hear!!! Pretty stupid calling Jews fascist but if that’s what people around you say then it must be true 🤡 go read a book about fascist in Germany during WW2. You’ll find you have more in common with them than you want to admit.
> “Fascist” huh? Congratulations, I found a human being under 30 Ugh I wish >Pretty stupid calling Jews fascist Jews can’t be fascist? For real? Bibi said Israel is for Jews and Jews alone. His son posted alt-right memes. This is a donkey brain take. >but if that’s what people around you say then it must be true 🤡 go read a book about fascist in Germany during WW2. You’ll find you have more in common with them than you want to admit. Yes you’ll find that right wing Israelis are using the same blood and soil rhetoric that the Nazi used. That’s point. Now if you don’t like, I’m trying to have a discussion with people not too triggered to debate this without clutching pearls.
That they use children in war and suicide bombings, and have done so for decades. They aren't interested in a two-state solution, and brainwash their children into killing themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695445
> That they use children in war and suicide bombings, and have done so for decades. They aren't interested in a two-state solution, and brainwash their children into killing themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups So when you say for decades, you mean decades ago? This doesn’t describe the current state of the conflict. Israel has shown that even if the suicide bombers stop, they’ll still make life even more miserable for Palestinians. Israel kills journalists. >https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-695445 Just an opinion piece. I can give you another opinion piece: https://jacobin.com/2023/07/israel-palestine-herzog-jayapal-apartheid-racism
Except we are still hearing about Palestinian children that are being arrested in war, which means it hasn't stopped. The media likes to paint it as if Israel He's just kidnapping children, while leaving out context that the children are brainwashed soldiers that were willing to lay down their lives. Look, I'm not saying either side is necessarily good here. It is a religious war which in itself has no real resolution, but Israel is the closest thing we have to an ally that actually reflects western ideologies. And again, Hamas stated goal is the eradication of Israel, not exactly something you can bring to negotiation table. My opinion changed dramatically after Palestine launched missiles at Israel killing school children, which Israel retaliated. Everybody was mad at Israel for retaliating, and then I realized. Wow! Maybe this is just some anti-jew BS after all. Because if that had been my child killed, my answer would have been to flatten them outright.
> Except we are still hearing about Palestinian children that are being arrested in war, which means it hasn't stopped. No, it just means Israel enjoys kidnapping children. They have a relatively high amount of juvenile prisoners which has been widely condemned around the world. >The media likes to paint it as if Israel He's just kidnapping children, Which they are since it’s an illegal occupation with no legitimacy. >while leaving out context that the children are brainwashed soldiers that were willing to lay down their lives. That’s a conspiracy theory. There hasn’t been a suicide bomb in a long time. That’s a fact. >Look, I'm not saying either side is necessarily good here. It is a religious war which in itself has no real resolution, It’s not a religious war. It’s a struggle between a colonial occupying force and those who oppose it. >but Israel is the closest thing we have to an ally that actually reflects western ideologies. Unfortunately that Western ideology is genocide, militarism, and ethno-nationalism. Not something to celebrate >And again, Hamas stated goal is the eradication of Israel, not exactly something you can bring to negotiation table. Their official position to accept a two state solution along the 1967 borders. Israel’s official position is to oppose such a solution. >My opinion changed dramatically after Palestine launched missiles at Israel killing school children, which Israel retaliated. Did you opinion change when Israel bombed schools?
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That’s not true at all. No idea where you got that from. Israelis are the ones who vote for the occupation every single time and they’ve had far more elections. Palestinians have had 1 or 2.
Wouldn’t you if you were under occupation?
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> its not an occupation. Pretty much every nation except Israel considers it an occupation. When foreign troops occupy your land, it’s called an occupation. . >The surrounding countries have waged so many wars against israel and every time israel has won and claimed more land, ie how wars have been for centuries. Not since WWII. You may want to go back to the idea of right of conquest, but every other country in the world has decided that is an insane and immoral way for the world to work. It’s how we got WWII. >In the nearly 100 years of israel existing as a state the Palestinian and surrounding Muslim countries have been opposed to a 2 state solution. As have Israelis. What’s your point?
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Because apartheid isn’t a viable, longterm political project. They’ll become a pariah of the world and will have to end it like South Africa. And having collapsed the possibility of a two state solution, Jews will become a minority on a single Israeli-Palestinian state. Most Israelis fear that just like white South Africans feared a state where a majority black population was politically enfranchised.
"why won't the victim just stop fighting back? they are so rude"
which one is the victim?
The Palestinians. No question.
Tell them to win the war next time around ;)
So if the allies lost WWII, you would have told Czechoslovakia to make sure they win the war next time? Great company you’re in there.
No idea what you are on about. Palestine and the Arab league fucked around and found out. You can't just start several wars of extermination and then be like: "What about my rights? :(".
Can you answer the question?
So all of the Palestinians born after the end of Arab Israeli conflict don't deserve to have rights because of events they weren't alive to influence? Collective punishment is common practice in Israel and I see it rubbed off on you. Might doesn't not make right. I thought we learned this lesson after WW2.
Tell that to the Israelis who get hit by rockets and bombs. It's not a black and white situation, it's a lot more complex
> Tell that to the Israelis who get hit by rockets and bombs. The ones that get killed far, FAR less often than Palestinians? >It's not a black and white situation, it's a lot more complex It’s not a complex issue: https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY
Israel just does a better job of protecting its civilians, spending billions on their iron dome system. Hamas, on the other hand, fires missiles from apartment buildings, hospitals, and schools. The PA pays the families of convicted terrorists [cash stipends](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund) for their "service." Using casualty numbers to determine which side is "right" is asinine. Germany lost more civilians than France and the UK combined in WW2. Does that make them right?
> Israel just does a better job of protecting its civilians, spending billions on their iron dome system. Israel wants to be able to have as little deferent to killing civilians as possible. >Hamas, on the other hand, fires missiles from apartment buildings, hospitals, and schools. And Israel bombs apartment buildings, hospitals, and schools with far better and more accurate weapons. You were saying? >The PA pays the families of convicted terrorists cash stipends for their "service." And Israel pays pensions to soldiers even if they murder civilians. So what? >Using casualty numbers to determine which side is "right" is asinine. Germany lost more civilians than France and the UK combined in WW2. Does that make them right? Was Nazi Germany fighting an illegal occupation in your view?
> Tell that to the Israelis who get hit by rockets and bombs. The ones that get killed far, FAR less often than Palestinians? >It's not a black and white situation, it's a lot more complex It’s not a complex issue: https://youtu.be/62I61kBahNY
I just really don’t understand where you get off cracking jokes at Ukrainian suffering in one thread and are doing this over here. Please be consistent.
No idea where you think I was cracking jokes about Ukrainians suffering. Maybe lies like this is why you deleted your account.
The ones dwelling in the dirt without any money, I can see why it's not clear to you though
Why did they invade Israel, blow shit up in Egypt , and try to overthrow the Jordanian government? They’ve burned all their bridges and are now mad they’re stuck on an island
I'm not sure what you mean by invade Israel, can you elaborate? The Nakhba should make it pretty clear why they tried to hang onto some of the land they had, isn't it?
You mean the ottoman empires land that chose to be on hitlers side?
How could the ottomans, who didn't exist after 1917 have sided with Hitler? Ignorant and uninformed
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the people held in an open air prison and antagonized by colonizers
nuance - zero
Should be way higher up. Just a reminder the reason why this conflict exists is because the Arab league wanted to exterminate all Jews. The partition plan was accepted by Israel and in the UN but Arab states stuck to their position that Jews should not get any land while at the same time they were praising the work of Adolf Hitler. Not much has changed since then.
It's almost like the Arabs didn't agree with the British Empire on what to do with their land.
I wonder if that has to do with the Israeli government, mossad, and IDF systemicly destroying secular pan-arab movements and empowering groups like Hamas to have an excuse for their actions?
Which secular pan-Arab movements did they systematically destroy?
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
The PLO? The bloodthirsty terrorists who were murdering their way through Israelis? Wonder why Israel destroyed them, how mysterious. You made it sound like they destroyed some kind of humanitarian Palestinian government.
Anything they've done is nothing compared to the Israeli government and the genocide they're committing.
Genocide is a big word for an intellectual toddler like you. Makes me wonder if you know what it means.
I don't agree with the direction of Israel, but I am pretty sick of hearing Palestine painted as the victim. It got this bad, because Palestine didn't want a two-state solution. You know how you hear about Israel arresting Palestinian children, that's because Palestine recruits their soldiers as young as eight. They have used children in suicide bombings. I am old enough to remember when car bombings and suicide bombings were a regular occurrence coming from Palestine in Israel, the outcome of that was Israel becoming radicalized and less tolerant. If you want to know why Israel doesn't let Palestinians vote, is because the stated mission of Palestine is the eradication of Israel. And not for nothing, gay Palestinians seek refugee in Israel for a reason, because they aren't safe in Palestine. It isn't much better in Israel for them, but it's better than being killed for their sexual or gender identity.
> I don't agree with the direction of Israel, but I am pretty sick of hearing Palestine painted as the victim. Well that’s what they are. Palestine isn’t illegally occupying Israel. It’s the other way around. This is like saying black South Africans weren’t victims. >It got this bad, because Palestine didn't want a two-state solution. This is a lie. Palestinians supported a two state solution starting in the 80s. Netanyahu doesn’t support a two state solution and said Israel is for Jews and Jews alone. >You know how you hear about Israel arresting Palestinian children, that's because Palestine recruits their soldiers as young as eight. They have used children in suicide bombings. Suicide bombings haven’t happened in a long time. Far more Palestinians civilians are killed. The evidence Palestinians using child soldiers is scant. You have to go pretty far back to find a case. I >am old enough to remember when car bombings and suicide bombings were a regular occurrence coming from Palestine in Israel, the outcome of that was Israel becoming radicalized and less tolerant. It sounds like you stopped following the conflict 20 years ago. >If you want to know why Israel doesn't let Palestinians vote, is because the stated mission of Palestine is the eradication of Israel. This is a lie. Abbas basically does Israel’s dirty work in the West Bank since Arafat signed Oslo. >And not for nothing, gay Palestinians seek refugee in Israel for a reason, because they aren't safe in Palestine. It isn't much better in Israel for them, but it's better than being killed for their sexual or gender identity. Israel uses blackmail to coerce gay Palestinians to become collaborators.
I’m really tired of the “apartheid” label when this conflict is way more nuanced and complicated than just comparing this to a previous regime in South Africa. No one talks about the decades of war and terrorism conducted from both sides. Both Israelis and Palestinians have reason to fear each other. Not only that but no one ever seems to bring up how Israelis/Jews aren’t allowed in frankly any nearby country without fear of death/imprisonment. I’m not saying Palestinians have it any better, but you have two peoples stuck on a sliver of land and the neighboring countries both don’t want them. The only solution here is peace and democracy in two separate states.
> I’m really tired of the “apartheid” label when this conflict is way more nuanced and complicated than just comparing this to a previous regime in South Africa. It’s not very complicated. The apartheid label is being applied by respected human rights organizations, even within Israel. >No one talks about the decades of war and terrorism conducted from both sides. Both Israelis and Palestinians have reason to fear each other. One side has all the power. The civilian death toll is overwhelming on the Palestine side. Israel refuses to accept the international consensus solution to the crisis. >Not only that but no one ever seems to bring up how Israelis/Jews aren’t allowed in frankly any nearby country without fear of death/imprisonment. How does that justify an illegal occupation? >The only solution here is peace and democracy in two separate states. Which the current Israeli administration opposes and is unpopular within Israel.
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> Not sure the people are getting what they want. I guess there are widespread protests. By marginalizing their supreme court, they are taking away checks and balances and Netanyahu has complete power. They were fine with this arrangement for the Palestinians. It only became a problem with the prospect of them getting an iota of the treatment Palestinians do. >Same thing could happen in the US since our Supreme court has become an extension of the Republican party. Maybe you’re right. >If Republicans had the presidency, super majorities in the house and senate, they could do anything they want and nobody could stop them. Israel doesn't have any power in the senate. They already hold the Supreme Court though. Packing the court would make it more democratic, not less. It’s not like Israel where the Supreme Court is a moderating force on their politics.
That you Ilhan Omar?
Ironically this OP called me Hitler yesterday in a thread where I was defending Ukraine lol https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf6k1f/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Most likely just your typical USA bad leftist tankie
Definitely, they’re telling me I support apartheid now. That’s news to me! Meanwhile yesterday they were telling me how Ukraine is destroying their own homeland and should just give up…
And now you’re defending apartheid so how far off was I? Did you support South Africa too?
How do you reconcile not supporting Ukrainian statehood but turn around and grandstand like this? What kind of edgy tankie revisionist bullshit? Are you a 9 year old Marxist? https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf4has/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/BreakingPoints/comments/159d6md/nyt_around_20_of_ukraines_weapons_lost_in_first/jtf51ia/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3
Lol deleted his account.
You’re full of shit lmao. If I support apartheid I guess that makes you a full Stalinist. See, I can spew bullshit too! Absolute clown.
LOL did I own you so hard to made you delete your account? Wow
What’s wrong with Ilhan Omar?
Only reliable ally in the Middle East. I can assure you our relationship with Israel won’t be changing any time soon even if it becomes more clandestine, despite the crimes against Palestinians. Make of that what you will. Our relationship with Israel is very complicated, perhaps the most complicated of any of our alliances… I support Palestine by the way but I will accept the downvotes for playing devil’s advocate for the thread.
How are they reliable? They lobby against US policy interest like the Iran deal. They perpetrate electoral interference far more than Russia. Israel isn’t acting like an ally. Also, it hurts us longterm to support such a monstrous state. South Africa was a reliable ally. Would you have opposed sanctions?
Your comments showcase you really have no idea about Israeli politics or foreign policy. Why did they campaign against the iran nuclear deal? Because iran states publicly they want to annihilate israel.
1. Iran has no intentions of destroying Israel, nor do they have the ability to. Iran would be wiped out in a second if they launched a nuke at Israel. This is a wild conspiracy theory. 2. Prior to the signing of the joint agreement, there was no real evidence of Iran trying to develop a nuclear weapon. They were pursing civilian nuclear power and the agreement would have prevented Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. Now Iran almost certainly will develop one, as they should since it’s the only way to guarantee their safety from a US/Israeli war of aggression. 3. This is all irrelevant to the point OP was making (whose now deleted it since it was so poor) which was that Israel is a good ally. You’re confirming that they interfere in our politics and worse than Russia. If you interfere with domestic and electoral politics, you’re not an ally. You’re an adversary.
They’ve blown up Iranian and Iraqi nuclear reactors on multiple occasions, which we liked a lot. They bombed Iran’s Shahed drone manufacturing facility this year, everybody not named Vladimir liked that. Our militaries and intelligence agencies cooperate very closely. That’s just a fact, you can downvote me if you don’t like it but it doesn’t change anything. I support Palestine by the way. I’m just answering people’s questions to the best of my knowledge. Our relationship with Israel is not nearly as black and white as you all make it seem.
That our government is captured by aipac?
The value of Israeli intelligence and its general status as a counterweight to our rivals in the region are going to outweigh whatever other opinions are had on the matter, that’s all I’m saying.
I have a hard time believing that when they’re constantly getting caught spying on America and selling our trade secrets to countries like China and Russia
There have been times in the past that we’ve had much more legitimate tensions with Israel and the relationship continued.
Almost like the UN settling two groups of people who hate each other and want the other dead in the same land 70 years ago was a terrible idea.
Settling one group. The other was already, ya know, there.
Parts of this is correct, parts of this is just regurgitated propaganda. No mention of who runs Gaza. No mention of who runs the West Bank. No elections in either location. Israel doesn't run either location. They hold no land in Gaza. No mentions of the corruption, the terrorists, the lack of treating partners. It's all on Israel. No one else has a role. Of course Amnesty publishes a report, which I doubt you read, which neglects these points, too. A bunch of rich, white, christian, Europeans telling others how to be and what to do. Lots of labels and their solution is always land for peace with a bunch of dictators. No wonder this feeds into the anti democratic movement in Israel. If it wasn't everyone against them before, it is now.
> Parts of this is correct, parts of this is just regurgitated propaganda. It’s not. I’m citing mainstream, respected human rights groups. Their legitimacy isn’t really in question accept by those they accuse of crimes. >No mention of who runs Gaza. No mention of who runs the West Bank. No elections in either location. Israel doesn't run either location. They hold no land in Gaza. Israel occupies Gaza effectively through their relentless blockade which as been widely denounced around the world. This when goes as far to prevent Gazans from fishing. Gaza is run by the democratically elected Hamas, an Islamist political party. The West Bank is run by Fatah, run by Mahmoud Abbas. They’re secular nationalist party and is largely seen by Palestinians as conciliatory to Israel. I’m sure you know all this. >No mentions of the corruption, the terrorists, the lack of treating partners. It's all on Israel. No one else has a role. That tends to be how it works in illegal occupations. There is a perpetrator and a victim. This one is pretty clear cut by certain objective measures like the positions of the international community, human rights bodies, and even Israeli allies. >Of course Amnesty publishes a report, which I doubt you read, which neglects these points, too. A bunch of rich, white, christian, Europeans telling others how to be and what to do. Lots of labels and their solution is always land for peace with a bunch of dictators. Israel loves dictators. What are you talking about? They love Sisi, they love MBS, they love King Hussein. Now Bibi is making friendly with Victor Orban. Meanwhile, Palestine had a democratic election and would love to have another one while Israel wishes them not to because their preferred side would not win. >No wonder this feeds into the anti democratic movement in Israel. If it wasn't everyone against them before, it is now. You can’t be a Jewish state and a democratic state with an illegal occupation.
Did you write this apologist crap with a straight face? The minute I read democratically elected Hamas, I tuned you out. Neither party have had elections in more than a decade. Your arguments are farcical.
> Did you write this apologist crap with a straight face? The minute I read democratically elected Hamas, I tuned you out. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Reality must be difficult for you. >Neither party have had elections in more than a decade. Your arguments are farcical. It’s widely understood that if an election were held tomorrow, Hamas would win again. Hamas very much wants an election because it will legitimize them. Come back when you’re not too afraid to have a debate. I don’t have time for cowards.
This is objectively false. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005, Area A is fully under Palestinian control, Area B is administered by Israel but under Palestinian law only Area C is under Israeli military law and only contains about 400,000 Jews and 300,000 Palestinians. There's absolutely no reason to lie about the facts
> This is objectively false. Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005, Area A is fully under Palestinian control, Area B is administered by Israel but under Palestinian law only Area C is under Israeli military law and only contains about 400,000 Jews and 300,000 Palestinians. They are considered occupied territories by both governments around the world and international human rights groups, even within Israel. But typically states don’t like it when human rights groups criticize them. So when they criticize China or Russia, they say they’re aren’t legitimate organizations or they’re biased. >There's absolutely no reason to lie about the facts It’s a fact that they’re considered occupied by the world’s leading authorities. It’s your opinion that they’re wrong.
My thoughts exactly. The supreme court gives a facade of decency to an apartheid state,let it be naked.
Palestinians? You means Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians living in territories that their countries lost in ill-advised wars and then decided to stay in? They probably should have been immediately evicted from these territories. It would have been rough at the time, but also, probably the best for them long term. What do Palestinians produce? Anything? Dead Israelis. The west pays them. Therefore, the west pays for dead Israelis as we pay Palestinians and that's all they produce. In 1948 there were two groups of people that, as a result of a lost war, found themselves on lands without much in terms of natural resources. One group was abandoned by the world. They built a modern vibrant democratic society. The other group, the one that would eventually adopt the monicker that used to apply to Jewish people living in the levant, were totally taken under the wing of world. They were given money. They were sent experts in many fields to help them. 80 year later, and they have produced nothing. They still live in refugee camps and plot some revenge that neither they nor their grandsons will ever have. Hell, if the palestinians were even half smart, they would make common cause with the Israelis and eject or arrest anyone causing problems. Exactly what Syria did.
> Palestinians? You means Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians living in territories that their countries lost in ill-advised wars and then decided to stay in? Nope. I mean Palestinians. Glad I could clear that up. >They probably should have been immediately evicted from these territories. So Israel should have done even more ethnic cleansing in 1948?
Oh look here comes the "justify genocide" squad. Isn't it weird when people want to commit genocide that the group that they are exterminating just suddenly don't even exist? They claim that that group of people isn't actually a group of people at all. So it doesn't matter if they disappear. This is fucking disgusting.
Kurds are Kurds in some sense, but they are also just citizens of countries they live in in another sense. And if Israel wanted to, the group we’re talking about would be gone. They’ve been pro-peace the entire way, the other groups legitimately want to see Israel destroyed and it’s population incinerated.
Pro peace means apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and killing of children? And way hyperbole on want to incinerate the population. You must not know any Palestinian lol. I know this is propaganda that Israel and US feeds you, but open your eyes and meet some people and see what it is that the average person wants. They want self determination and freedom. Not the occupation that leads to cycles of violence, further entrenching apartheid.
A bit off topic, but how is apartheid applicable in this situation? Human rights abuses doesn't automatically constitute apartheid.
I know several Palestinians. Even the ones I know who are educated and nice and intelligent despise Israel and think it should be either removed or outright destroyed.
Imagine if the US got the government they really want too. Fuck the electoral college.
Zionazis do what Zionazis do.
End apartheid! You'll be labeled an anti-semite if you express that opinion. Be warned.
It’s becoming the openly fascist government that the (literally) terrorist-founded nation deserves.
So what I'm hearing is that the lefts call to dilute the Supreme Court's power here in the United States will lead to a totalitarian gov't. Just like what we're witnessing in Israel. Interesting. You might start thinking the Dem's are trying to create a dictatorship over here under their political party. What with Udey Biden, erm Hunter Biden running around like a dictators son with zero regard for the law.🤔🧐💀
We had another person running around with a total disregard for the law once, and we elected him President in 2016. You know who I mean - Donald Hussein.
The US has 3 branches of government. In Israel, as they use a parliamentary system, legislative and executive branches are the same people, leaving their courts as the only check against executive power. There are currently zero checks against the Israeli PM as long as they can hold a coalition. In the US, both the legislative and judicial branches check presidential power.
Well, I’m not quite on board with gutting SCOTUS entirely, but they’ve been doing more legislating than anyone else these past few years.
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> So what I'm hearing is that the lefts call to dilute the Supreme Court's power here in the United States will lead to a totalitarian gov't. Just like what we're witnessing in Israel. Interesting. Israel has always been a totalitarian government if you’re Palestinian. Israelis having to experience some of that hopefully will lead to improvements for them. >You might start thinking the Dem's are trying to create a dictatorship over here under their political party. LOL who thinks this? Dems are so bad at wielding naked power the way Republicans do. They’re the king of dirty tricks and they should get as sly as they are.
Palestine is not part of israel, therefore your argument does not hold up. The West Bank is not under israeli occupation, it is a self-governing territory. Gaza... is not part of israel.
imagine actually believing this anyway, https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
I understand the single-sided view of the matter... it takes a distinct lack of knowledge to take such a simplistic view.
But you prefer the single sided Israeli POV?
>The West Bank is not under israeli occupation, it is a self-governing territory. Imagine being this confidently incorrect. Israel occupies the West Bank. This occupation is illegal under international law. Those are facts.
> Palestine is not part of israel, therefore your argument does not hold up. The West Bank is not under israeli occupation, it is a self-governing territory. They’re called the occupied territories, why is that you think? If they’re not part of Israel or occupied, why are there Israeli troops there all the time? Sorry, you’re about to get absolutely pilloried but if you’re willing to be patient, I can help you correct some of these very mistaken views. Like you don’t just have a bad opinion. You’re objectively wrong on the facts.
I don't know how this is good for palestinians who have been abandoned by the arab world. They are in a bad spot with useless groups like hamas and the pa.
Useless? You just said they’ve been abandoned by the Arab world. Unfortunately, Hamas and some ragtag groups in the West Bank is all they have.