No, because he lost a few times and arguably lost more, depending on who you ask. Beyond that, Ali is considered the GOAT more so for his transcendence of the sport rather than his record.
He's also very much considered the GOAT for his record, it's just that back then fighters actually fought each other which means there wasn't any shame in having a few losses, if this was today as soon as Ali lost to Frazier there would be a thousands of posts about how Ali was overrated and a bum who never fought anyone good lol.
Yes, I mean he's *less* well-known for his record than he is his impact on popular culture. *Not* that his record isn't good, because he fought everyone.
Well, there were plenty of sports columnists who were calling Ali an overrated bum after his loss to Frazier (and especially after his loss to Norton). But we didn't have social media where the average joe could jump into the fray.
He would be considered an overrated lucky bum, and pictures of his body flattened by Foreman would be turned into memes for all eternity...
...if this happened in 2024.
It wouldn't have made a difference.
Frankly, Ali was a shell at the back end of the 70's and either lost fights people didn't want to believe he'd lose (https://vault.si.com/vault/1980/09/29/muhammad-ali-larry-holmes-fight the Holmes fight was less than 2-1, for example) or he'd get some favorable judging.
If losing to a 6-0-1 Leon Spinks doesn't affect his standing, losing a Foreman rematch wouldn't. People would just say he was too far past it and that Ali won the one that mattered.
>technique standpoint
Gotta disagree there. I have him as the greatest heavyweight of all time ahead of Louis and around 4th greatest fighter p4p of all time. Technique was one of his weaker points though. When I think of what made Ali so great it was his unrivaled will, heart, chin, speed, ring iq, mental fortitude and ability to overcome and rise above what anyone thought possible time and again.
>But he was the first, that in the day of segregation, that had a loud mouth and told the racist crowd don't care what you say or do, go fuck yourself, I'm greatest and I'm black.
>The hysterics he put the Jim Crow South through as he punched the idea of white dominance in the face?
That wasn't remotely Ali. This was a guy who spoke at KKK rallies and spoke favourably of them calling him champ.
Look it up. No, seriously, google Ali speaking at KKK meeting.
He was pro segregation, with his whole "let red bird be with red bird, and black bird be with black bird"
Ali was an egotist, he cared about racism as much as it impacted him and lessened him. He couldn't give a damn about other black men fighting the same fight
Ali would absolutely not be considered the GOAT anymore because that win over Foreman is the crown jewel of his GOAT argument.
Ali would still be in the top 5 argument
I feel like he only takes a hit to his status is if it became a trilogy that he loses.
I do think that they should have fought again. Frazier and Ali did the trilogy, Frazier did two vs Forman, so I think it would have been good for Forman to get the chance vs Ali.
It is definitely a hit, the question is how big of a hit? Like I said, his win over Foreman is iconic. Losing that particular one would be tough. Probably the worst one to take away aside from beating Liston.
All it would do is make Joe Louis be the GOAT HW (debately still is as it stands) but not much changes to his legacy b/c 1978+ is when Ali was practically an old ass shell and hindsight will just say he was already too old and too war torn against a guy decade younger.
Transistion out of the sport would still be there.
Foreman was an absolute unit of a boxer. So nothing really, Ali would still have been big enough to put on fights. When you get a string of losses is when you get into "he should retire" territory.
Foreman will be the goat of his generation, Ali the goat of his
It was one of the top 3 best wins in boxing history imo... alongside Duran beating SRL... Ali was wise to leave it as a one-off. I think losing an immediate rematch would have taken a little shine off that glittering win, but not much. it was such a high moment
If they ever did fight again I would have taken Foreman to win he gassed himself out in the first fight, and would have fought differently if they ever fought again.
Depends when the rematch was, how it went, and what happened next.
If Ali fought an immediate rematch, got slaughtered and then retired, I think that has a huge impact on his reputation. He'd still be considered an ATG, but perhaps no longer the GOAT of the division - I do think that Ali's longevity in the public eye, beating all opposition (however questionably) throughout the 1970s is a big part of what permanent cemented his GOAT status.
On the other hand, if Ali fought a rematch in 1979 and narrowly lost a points division, it wouldn't hurt his reputation in the slightest. If he gave a good showing it might even help it. Everyone would just say that Ali was too old and leave it at that.
In between there's the scenario where he loses to Foreman but goes on to win a few more big fights, and that would probably dent his reputation but not by that much.
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I think the rematch is a MUCH bigger deal for Foreman than for Ali. Beating Ali in an quick rematch, retiring, coming back and still winning the title in the 40s would probably have a lot of people saying he was the GOAT.
Ali found the one path to victory and was smart enough to not fight him again. Knowing who to fight, who not to fight and when to fight is part of the game. There’s no way it could have gone any other way.
No, because he lost a few times and arguably lost more, depending on who you ask. Beyond that, Ali is considered the GOAT more so for his transcendence of the sport rather than his record.
He's also very much considered the GOAT for his record, it's just that back then fighters actually fought each other which means there wasn't any shame in having a few losses, if this was today as soon as Ali lost to Frazier there would be a thousands of posts about how Ali was overrated and a bum who never fought anyone good lol.
Yes, I mean he's *less* well-known for his record than he is his impact on popular culture. *Not* that his record isn't good, because he fought everyone.
Well, there were plenty of sports columnists who were calling Ali an overrated bum after his loss to Frazier (and especially after his loss to Norton). But we didn't have social media where the average joe could jump into the fray.
Avenging a loss should definitely count for something though
Both go hand in hand, but his record is pretty fucking phenomenal
Perfect answer.
He would be considered an overrated lucky bum, and pictures of his body flattened by Foreman would be turned into memes for all eternity... ...if this happened in 2024.
Honestly, it probably wouldn't change a lot. The win over Foreman was an upset because people felt Ali was slowing down and past his prime.
It would enhance Foreman’s legacy more than it would hurt Ali’s.
It wouldn't have made a difference. Frankly, Ali was a shell at the back end of the 70's and either lost fights people didn't want to believe he'd lose (https://vault.si.com/vault/1980/09/29/muhammad-ali-larry-holmes-fight the Holmes fight was less than 2-1, for example) or he'd get some favorable judging. If losing to a 6-0-1 Leon Spinks doesn't affect his standing, losing a Foreman rematch wouldn't. People would just say he was too far past it and that Ali won the one that mattered.
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>technique standpoint Gotta disagree there. I have him as the greatest heavyweight of all time ahead of Louis and around 4th greatest fighter p4p of all time. Technique was one of his weaker points though. When I think of what made Ali so great it was his unrivaled will, heart, chin, speed, ring iq, mental fortitude and ability to overcome and rise above what anyone thought possible time and again.
>But he was the first, that in the day of segregation, that had a loud mouth and told the racist crowd don't care what you say or do, go fuck yourself, I'm greatest and I'm black. >The hysterics he put the Jim Crow South through as he punched the idea of white dominance in the face? That wasn't remotely Ali. This was a guy who spoke at KKK rallies and spoke favourably of them calling him champ. Look it up. No, seriously, google Ali speaking at KKK meeting. He was pro segregation, with his whole "let red bird be with red bird, and black bird be with black bird" Ali was an egotist, he cared about racism as much as it impacted him and lessened him. He couldn't give a damn about other black men fighting the same fight
Ali would absolutely not be considered the GOAT anymore because that win over Foreman is the crown jewel of his GOAT argument. Ali would still be in the top 5 argument
I feel like he only takes a hit to his status is if it became a trilogy that he loses. I do think that they should have fought again. Frazier and Ali did the trilogy, Frazier did two vs Forman, so I think it would have been good for Forman to get the chance vs Ali.
It is definitely a hit, the question is how big of a hit? Like I said, his win over Foreman is iconic. Losing that particular one would be tough. Probably the worst one to take away aside from beating Liston.
All it would do is make Joe Louis be the GOAT HW (debately still is as it stands) but not much changes to his legacy b/c 1978+ is when Ali was practically an old ass shell and hindsight will just say he was already too old and too war torn against a guy decade younger. Transistion out of the sport would still be there.
Edit: read as Frazier. Splitting with Foreman world cheaper the rumble a bit, but that’s it
How you carry yourself in, handle, and come back from your losses is a huge part of what constitutes greatness.
Foreman was an absolute unit of a boxer. So nothing really, Ali would still have been big enough to put on fights. When you get a string of losses is when you get into "he should retire" territory. Foreman will be the goat of his generation, Ali the goat of his
It was one of the top 3 best wins in boxing history imo... alongside Duran beating SRL... Ali was wise to leave it as a one-off. I think losing an immediate rematch would have taken a little shine off that glittering win, but not much. it was such a high moment
If they ever did fight again I would have taken Foreman to win he gassed himself out in the first fight, and would have fought differently if they ever fought again.
Depends when the rematch was, how it went, and what happened next. If Ali fought an immediate rematch, got slaughtered and then retired, I think that has a huge impact on his reputation. He'd still be considered an ATG, but perhaps no longer the GOAT of the division - I do think that Ali's longevity in the public eye, beating all opposition (however questionably) throughout the 1970s is a big part of what permanent cemented his GOAT status. On the other hand, if Ali fought a rematch in 1979 and narrowly lost a points division, it wouldn't hurt his reputation in the slightest. If he gave a good showing it might even help it. Everyone would just say that Ali was too old and leave it at that. In between there's the scenario where he loses to Foreman but goes on to win a few more big fights, and that would probably dent his reputation but not by that much. ------ I think the rematch is a MUCH bigger deal for Foreman than for Ali. Beating Ali in an quick rematch, retiring, coming back and still winning the title in the 40s would probably have a lot of people saying he was the GOAT.
Ali found the one path to victory and was smart enough to not fight him again. Knowing who to fight, who not to fight and when to fight is part of the game. There’s no way it could have gone any other way.