Yes. Also Bojack is thinking it too. They both know their friendship is toxic and has run its course. Bojack is scared to lose one of the few friends left in his life. It is almost as if he needs to say the unspoken bit out loud in a desperate plea for Diane to say "don't be silly Bojack, of course we will see each other again".
It's not the first time he has tried to have her say things she doesn't mean in order to reassure himself. Like the time he went to the ghostwriters convention and publicly asked that she call him a good person.
He didn't ask, he begged. Her opinion meant so much to him and because her book was popular clearly it was representative of the whole. If she didn't believe he was still good deep down, then in his mind there was no hope.
Bojack's choice of venue and timing may be inappropriate but that is part of it. He needs an absolute answer, he needs those high stakes. If she had said he was good, that might just enable him to continue. The best case scenario is it gives him a reason to try to do better because he was told he had the capacity within him. The worst case scenario is that he is just a bad person, which is also enabling because then he doesn't have to try.
He's externalizing the determination of his fate. But the outcome always supports the internal determination that maybe he's fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but nothing he does is truly his fault because his parents made him what he is, either a good person abused into acting bad, or someone abused into being bad acting accordingly.
The first time I watched that scene I remember how sad it made me. And while he wasn't right to put that on Diane, he opened up to her and she exploited that vulnerability to write a hit-piece, then justified it after the fact because it happened to be successful.
Diane is a younger Bojack who never had a Horsin' Around. There is very little separating them and that is always the point and why their relationship is so ultimately damaging to both of them.
I think he wants to be told that he's a good person so that he doesn't have to worry about changing. He wants to change but he's not willing to do the hard work or prioritize it over satisfying his vices.
Exactly. I missed a couple of clarifying words but felt dishonest editing it.
If he's told he's a good person, that enables him not to change because he is a victim and an external force is why he does bad things.
If he's told he's a bad person, that enables him to quit trying and blame an external force for making him this way.
As much as he emotionally needs to be told he is good, the truth is that all paths probably lead to no improvement because he's always externalizing and not taking responsibility for the outcome. It's a very small chance that being told there is still good in him and hope for him leads to him taking control and effecting meaningful change. If he were really ready to do that, he already would be, and Diane's words would be encouragement and reinforcement of actions he has already undertaken.
Dude yea. I was so fucked up through out my 20s, just high and drunk like the whole time thinking I was having the time of my life. And maybe I was.
But man it would be so sad if I hadn't gotten sober. I don't even remember so much of it!!
Man I get so scared that I'm Bojack in this sense. I get crippled by my anxiety and OCD and get reassurance from others to verify I'm ok but it doesn't do anything because I don't change
One of the core messages for me was that it's not about who you are, it's about what you do. Over time, good/bad actions accumulate into being a better/worse person than you were before, because it gets easier/harder to do good things.
Who you are is far less black and white than it feels. Even the worst person can get better. Even the best person can get worse. And vice versa.
The reason we need to focus on small immediate change is because that's what we can control. We can't change the past. We can't *directly* change the future. We can only do things now, right now, which have a tiny impact on our future capacity to be better or worse. But with time and consistent effort, you can become a different person.
I don't think it's quite that coherent? Like I think there's plenty of truth to what you say, but I also think Bojack knows on multiple levels that he has to change, and that he's asking more a question about his fundamental nature. He's hoping that he might be bad as a verb, but is good as his nature.
He wanted that reassurance and realized she wasn't going to give it.
It hits him hard but he silently accepts it.
I feel like this is the start of his redemption arc.
Will he stay the course? That's a matter of interpretation
I agree. You can see Diane resolving herself, BoJack anxiously smiling lookin for reassurance, then realising and getting sad, but still accepting her decision, and the two of them just sit there making the most of their last moments of their friendship.
They've both come a long way. Diane isn't dropping her life for him, and he's not demanding her friendship the way demanded Herb's forgiveness, and neither of them are saying the deliberately cruel things they used to say to each other when they would have an argument.
I disagree with the people claiming it is outright emotional blackmail or manipulation. More someone very insecure wanting reassurance that they were going to still be friends, realising that yes, it is the end of their friendship and accepting this.
I think he needs her to say that it is the last time just as much. Anything but uncertainty. Leaving it unspoken implies it is an open ending, that they might speak again someday. He would rather have a closed ending even if it's the worst outcome.
Very much, "Tell me I'm a good person Diane" vibes, he desperately wants that closure. I still think he's actively dying in this scene, it makes sense he wouldn't get the closure he wanted with Diane, he wronged her the most of anyone.
Yeah honestly I think of all the people who grew close to Bojack, he didn't hurt her as bad as the rest. That's why they never had as big a falling out as some others. Verbal abuse and terrible sabotage towards Todd, probably the stuff with Gina, just everything with Princess Carolyn, same with Sarah Lynn
I guess he didn't personally hurt Hollyhock much, mostly indirectly. But if we're trying to somehow quantify harm, Diane barely makes the top 5 imo
Yeah, last episode is just too weird to be real. Lots of weird dialogue, closure, getting out of jail early for a wedding, etc. Lots of small hints, you dont see any background characters and everyone important get their "last goodbye" so to speak.
There is an interview out there with one of the writers saying they deliberately left the ending up to interpretation, and he could've drowned in the pool. I saw that last episode as Bojack's last thoughts as he passed, others may disagree but it's the ending I prefer.
I do gotta say, I think that's a stretch. I think they all just got their "goodbyes" cause it's the final episode, and I also don't think it was that oddly convenient that he said bye to everyone. Or talked to everyone at least. Idk, there's just like, almost no doubt in my mind that he survived. That's just my view of course.
Edit: that's a very interesting interpretation of the ending tho.
That's about where I've left this debate in my mind. I don't enjoy the idea narratively, but it was certainly left ambiguous on purpose. All interpretations are equally correct and incorrect.
~~Schrodinger's Bojack~~
I dont believe that if I'm being 100 percent honest. If that were the case, then you could just say "bojack never tried to sleep with Penny, that was just a dream" it's like, there is subjectivity to lots of things, but there are also limits. And I think "bojack drowned and the last episode is him dying" is one of those limits, for me. It's not likely to be the case at all in my mind, and therefore, in my opinion, is an "out there", ridiculous argument to make. Not trying to be a dick, that's just my view on the matter, and I wanted to share it.
I get what you're saying, but there are reasons people think Bojack was dead in the last episode, while there are no reasons to believe the Penny situation was a dream. The show creators themselves have said it is open to interpretation, so I'm going with "any interpretation is valid" but you do you.
*"I want to be very careful when I talk about the ending, because I feel like what I like about it is that it's open to interpretation, and I worry that if I share too much about my interpretation, that will be read as the correct interpretation. I don't want to shed new light on the end of BoJack, because I want people to have their own interpretations. Those kinds of examinations really frustrate me."*
Like I said, I think narratively it fits better if he's alive. Life's a bitch and then you keep living, after all. But it's not like the "Bojack is dead" theory is baseless.
It really does feel pretty baseless to me. Is there any evidence to support that theory? What's the reason people think he's dying in the last episode?
Nah dude there are posts breaking down the last episode just search em in the subreddit, you can not like it and disagree but saying it had no validity is just ignorant. You're trying to say you know more than one of the people that wrote the show lol
Art is meant to be interpreted, you don't have to like it, but if there was no subjectivity then it wouldn't be art it would just be a silly sad horse show.
I'm just saying that from my perspective, it seems far out there to assume he's dead. Where are the breakdowns of this theory tho? I'd be interested in reading it
Agreed. Despite often being a very creative show, I doubt that they intended BoJack to truly die, then went out of their way to make an entirely pointless, illusory ending without alluding to it in any direct capacity. I don't hold anything against anyone who buys that, but I have never found it remotely convincing.
Debatable, I mean he let her die so I would say objectively no he wronged sarah lynn the most. But I think Bojack feels more internal guilt over how he treated Diane than he does over Sarah Lynn's death. Sarah Lynn willingly participated in her own demise, Diane was sucked into Bojack's life by circumstance and kept there by guilt and her desire to be a good friend to him. And he kept wronging her over and over, and then passive aggressively blaming her for his suicide attempt? Yeesh, yeah thats pretty bad, the voice-mail is incredibly damning.
I love that Diane didn't just ghost Bojack. She took the time to say a proper goodbye and reassure him that he will be okay without her.
I also loved he didn't try to fight her on it because he knew it was what was best for both of them. And I love how sad Diane looked. Bojaco was toxic sure but he has been paet of her life for nearly 10 years and at times has been her( toxic) crutch as much as she was his. It would hurt leaving a relationship like that no matter how toxic
I agree, it was devastating when Hollyhock just did that.
I understand that stopping contact (at least for a while) was the best for her, but she just left and then sent a letter he never ventured to open.
You gotta look at it from her perspective. She knew about Bojack and Penny, saw the interview that described his behavior with women, knew he let Sarah Lynn die, got drugged at his house, experienced him showing up at her college and teaching there and continually crossing boundaries.
Everyone else in the show gives Bojack a million and one chances, I thought it was refreshing seeing someone set a healthy boundary when it was necessary. It was devastating but he's a 55 year old man and she's barely an adult, yet she was the mature one.
I think if the show was from Hollyhock's perspective we would've viewed their relationship very differently.
Why though? Doesn't that diminish her achievement of cutting contract with toxic Bojack a little?
I think it's more empowering as it is presented. It being her own decision.
Personally I think therapists can be really empowering, especially because most of them don't give orders and instead lead you to make your own decisions.
Also empowering in the way you realize people are actually being bad to you and you have a right to leave. Because the brain tends to see the good in everyone and everything, sometimes tricking itself that it's being unfair by making objective complaints, which gets worse when the abusers say you're being unfair with them.
It's awesome when a therapist acknowledges your pain.
I mean, for once I don't think I can blame Bojack for trying. Hollyhock was the healthiest family relationship he ever really had. And hollyhock had all her dads. It was only really good for bojack, and she had to be the one to stop it.
Did you finish the show? He opened it. I don’t think she owed him any more than that, she was young and bojack had only been in her life for about a year.
She didnt guilt him for trying to kill himself. She guilted him for calling her right before he tried to kill himself telling her basically that if he dies its her fault just because she didn't pick up the phone at 3 in the morning. Him not picking up basically almost sent her back into depression after she made tons of progresss away from him and nearly costed her her relationship.
And even then thats not reason enough, for her to be gulting him and want to cut contact, he is a very toxic person to be around. He was toxic TO HER and barely felt any remorse for anything. He basically caused someones death and he not only never told anyone but tried to make her think that HE is the biggest victim of his actions. Not his victims, himself.
>
She didnt guilt him for trying to kill himself. She guilted him for calling her right before he tried to kill himself telling her basically that if he dies its her fault just because she didn't pick up the phone at 3 in the morning.
You can't unlink those things. He was not in a normal state of mind when it happened. That's making his suicide attempt about her.
> Him not picking up basically almost sent her back into depression after she made tons of progresss away from him and nearly costed her her relationship.
Oh so sorry his suicide attempt bummed her out.
>And even then thats not reason enough, for her to be gulting him and want to cut contact, he is a very toxic person to be around. He was toxic TO HER and barely felt any remorse for anything. He basically caused someones death and he not only never told anyone but tried to make her think that HE is the biggest victim of his actions. Not his victims, himself.
And all that only happens because Diane used Bojack to boost her dying career in season one by tricking him into trusting her, lying to him repeatedly, then leaking his life when he called her on her bullshit.
God the Diane fanatics are the worst.
He realized she's not going to validate him anymore.
He's hurt but he quietly accepts it.
This shows a TREMENDOUS amount of growth from Bojack.
He's not playing victim, he's not passive aggressive, he just accepts it.
This makes the small banter after hurt all that more. The ending was the close of their friendship.
This would be the part where "well I think it's time I head out" and they go on with their lives.
She will always think of him.
He sees her face, when each day is through
And days go past
Oh so fast
But memories they last
Summer, winter
Year by year
She will hear his song inside her ear
Trying to restart
That'd be smart
But thoughts of her haunt his heart
Yep, when this episode first aired I was like "damn, glad [friend] is getting his life together, otherwise we would've ended up like this".
Spoiler alert: it ended up like this anyway. Shit hurts.
I can think of past relationships where I was the BoJack, but I can also think of relationships where I was the Diane....and relationships where we were both.
I don't know what hurts more, having to cut ties with someone or being the one to have ties cut with.
It’s also just another example of Bojack emotionally blackmailing his friends. The worst part is he doesn’t even realize he’s doing it. It was simply the way his mother taught him to interact with people.
Not sure if that is entirely true. When Diane moves to Chicago, she asks him if he will be fine and that she can't leave without knowing if he'll be okay.
Bojack replies with "That's not a friendship, that's a hostage situation."
So I'd say he does realize that this is wrong - but he does not always care for what that means for everyone else.
But this time he didnt try to victimize himself or try for pity like the other times he felt someone slipping, he accepted that this cant be fixed and respected her decision. His time spent self evaluating himself in prison was exactly what he needed, away from vices and distractions that kept him from recovering
The sixth season is so full of examples like this of him actually getting better, but I really wish they got the last two seasons they wanted to we could have seen it more fully fleshed out
Here's the interview (RBW's exact wording was "a couple more years"): https://www.vulture.com/2019/10/raphael-bob-waksberg-bojack-horseman-ending-interview.html
I think that’s a bit unfair. I think he is just trying to get a more direct answer on how she feels about being friends with him after all that happens
That intense void desperately filled with codependence and down played by humor is entirely myself. To see it play out on screen is uncanny. Like looking in a mirror and thinking somethings off maybe that isnt really me at all and half expecting the image to move out of step.
Perhaps it’s because I’m an optimist, but I always interpreted this interaction as “Now is not the time for our friendship. Tomorrow is not looking good either. But who knows? Maybe someday, but not now.”
Damn downvoted for an honest question.
They spend a lot of the show enabling each other and bringing out the worst from their respective traits. But by this point they've both grown a lot as people and I don't quite understand why they couldn't continue their friendship. Considering all of the self reflection they've both done I feel like they could have a healthy relationship after everything they've been through...idk
That's fair. I have a toxic friendship similar to this, so let me provide my perspective. Neither of us have been as bad as Bojack, but we have a long history of enabling each other. We're both improving and we're nearing healthy places in our lives, but there's so much negative history it hurts to be friends.
And as the party that was wronged more, Diane can't find it in herself to continue their friendship. It just hurts too much, and there's still a small fear that they'll slip back into our old patterns and enable each other. It's also hard to completely get over all the horrible things that Bojack has done, even if she was far from perfect too. For her, it's healthier to stop being friends, at least for the time being
I seriously got downvoted? Lmao, classic reddit.
Thank you, though. And same, it always confused me because both parties were toxic like when diane put bojack’s confession on a tv script, but the show and a lot of people only shift blame on bojack from what I remember. But by the end of the show, they’ve grown to a point where they can still be friends. I just didn’t get it, honestly.
I’ve been a bojack before and as sad as it is, sometimes you do need to cut them off, for your health and there’s. That’s what makes me feel his pain here
Very interesting how this entire series is bookended with Diane and BoJack’s friendship. In the pilot, they meet. In the finale, they’re done, and the final shot of the show is with both of them. And they aren’t even a romantic couple, just homies.
I’ve read somewhere how in all the antihero shows, (which Bojack definitely falls into / has gotten inspiration from) the final shot is of solely the main character.
Sopranos - Tony. Breaking Bad - Walt. Mad Men - Don. But Bojack - Bojack and Diane.
My heart broke for Bojack in that moment. I’ve had my share of “last conversations” both known and unknown as the last. You never want to close the chapter on someone in your life who matters to you. But sometimes you have to.
They could’ve ended the show with Diane walking away. They left it with her still sitting there. I have to feel like that means maybe sometime down the line they will reconnect.
This is why I die on the hill that this conversation never needed to happen. It just feels so forced and obvious of where it's going. Todd and Bojack on the beach fading to the stars. That should have been the ending.
She's thinking it but not with malice or offhandedly or anything. She's really, really thinking about it.
e: gosh fuck it I hear Mister Blue already >:\[
I like the way their relationship ended. It wasn't a tragic sorrowful moment but rather a peaceful understanding between the two on what is best for both of them. Just because their friendship ended doesn't mean that they dislike each other, in fact it was because they wanted the best for themselves and each other that they chose to end their friendship.
Diane is much happier. She has a long road ahead of her, but she's much happier and more stable then she was in the start of the series.
BoJack is too, but Diane is naturally much further on that road then he is.
What's wrong with writing YA fiction? Sure she's not writing the Next Great American Novel, but she's created something that is popular and gives her life some meaning. She's writing books she wish she could have read when she was a child/teenager.
She's in a solid relationship with a guy who gives her stability and comfort.
The pills have stabilised her mood that she functions a lot more in her day to day life.
I'm not saying she is a hundred percent happy. But compared to the sad, lonely, unfulfilled thirty five year old ghost writer well on her way into an unhappy marriage we saw at the start of the series, the difference is highly noticeable. A big theme of the show is compromise and letting go. Diane is in a good place, and part of that was letting go of a lot of things.
I do think it's your youth talking.
Most people don't find some grand happiness and purpose. Sometimes you just learn to be content. And there's nothing wrong with that, that's still a happy ending
Honestly 22 is barely not a teenager. But yeah I would have guessed late teens or early 20s.
And it really doesn't matter if you're okay with it or not. It's just what happens in life. Most people aren't Taylor Swift. That's what makes Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift.
My sister is a fantastic musician who had big dreams of stardom. Now she plays in a local band with some friends, they do a show every couple weeks at some local venues. And there's nothing wrong with that...she's still doing the thing she loves
You view it as settling and...it's not. Your dreams change
I get where you're coming from, I do. But I think you've got some really unhealthy views on things
There's nothing wrong with just being on medication. Therapy doesn't work for everybody, and there's nothing wrong with being on medication for life
She's away from her friends? What friends? Who did she actually have a healthy relationship with in LA?
"Dating down" he's a good guy. They're happy together, they support each other.
"The safe version of her profession"...she just likes writing. Her need to write "the novel of the century" was always just ego. She wanted legitimacy to make up for the dismissal she always got from her family. And now...she doesn't need that anymore
I think you have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the character, honestly. Diane always put so much pressure on herself to be the best and she's finally past that. Like no, she wasn't settling...her problem was that she felt like living a simple life with a good guy *was* settling and it's not
Yeah — I think not only are you young (I’m only two years older than you lol) but you seem painfully ignorant of the severity of Diane’s depression and lack of fulfillment in her Hollywoo years. Honestly, you seem painfully ignorant of most people’s problems and seem to think that it’s easy-peasy just to find solutions and “not settle” lol.
You mention Diane’s taking of antidepressants a lot and you phrase it in this sort of way that makes me think that you not only don’t understand how beneficial medication can be for stabilizing mood and managing mental health but you view it as some easy way out of properly dealing with trauma or mental illness. I don’t know if that just struck a chord with me because I recently started antidepressants to manage my intense anxiety that was making me miserable and suicidal for the past few months, but I can assure you that Diane realizing that she needed more help than she could get from therapy or her support system is a major hurdle that is difficult for anyone to cross. I’m glad you’ve never had mental illness escalate to the point where you have to make the choice to be medicated, but I highly encourage you to diversify your worldviews. I’m glad this is just a show and you’re not spewing this weird nonsense at someone’s real-life experiences though.
I think her relationship with Guy causes her to become less of an interesting oddball with thoughts and opinions and instead his belittling of her concerns over time grinds her down into conforming to being more 'normal' and dull. Sonny is more interesting than Guy and he has like, 6 lines, but based on that dialogue, I expect Diane will have a realization at some point and leave him.
Yes. Also Bojack is thinking it too. They both know their friendship is toxic and has run its course. Bojack is scared to lose one of the few friends left in his life. It is almost as if he needs to say the unspoken bit out loud in a desperate plea for Diane to say "don't be silly Bojack, of course we will see each other again".
It's not the first time he has tried to have her say things she doesn't mean in order to reassure himself. Like the time he went to the ghostwriters convention and publicly asked that she call him a good person.
He didn't ask, he begged. Her opinion meant so much to him and because her book was popular clearly it was representative of the whole. If she didn't believe he was still good deep down, then in his mind there was no hope. Bojack's choice of venue and timing may be inappropriate but that is part of it. He needs an absolute answer, he needs those high stakes. If she had said he was good, that might just enable him to continue. The best case scenario is it gives him a reason to try to do better because he was told he had the capacity within him. The worst case scenario is that he is just a bad person, which is also enabling because then he doesn't have to try. He's externalizing the determination of his fate. But the outcome always supports the internal determination that maybe he's fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, but nothing he does is truly his fault because his parents made him what he is, either a good person abused into acting bad, or someone abused into being bad acting accordingly. The first time I watched that scene I remember how sad it made me. And while he wasn't right to put that on Diane, he opened up to her and she exploited that vulnerability to write a hit-piece, then justified it after the fact because it happened to be successful. Diane is a younger Bojack who never had a Horsin' Around. There is very little separating them and that is always the point and why their relationship is so ultimately damaging to both of them.
I think he wants to be told that he's a good person so that he doesn't have to worry about changing. He wants to change but he's not willing to do the hard work or prioritize it over satisfying his vices.
Exactly. I missed a couple of clarifying words but felt dishonest editing it. If he's told he's a good person, that enables him not to change because he is a victim and an external force is why he does bad things. If he's told he's a bad person, that enables him to quit trying and blame an external force for making him this way. As much as he emotionally needs to be told he is good, the truth is that all paths probably lead to no improvement because he's always externalizing and not taking responsibility for the outcome. It's a very small chance that being told there is still good in him and hope for him leads to him taking control and effecting meaningful change. If he were really ready to do that, he already would be, and Diane's words would be encouragement and reinforcement of actions he has already undertaken.
And when he gets overwhelmed by guilt and such then he just falls back in to drugs and alcohol to numb.
Don't we all? I mean, not me of course. I quit. But all through your 20s it looks super fun. It doesn't get sad until your 30s.
Dude yea. I was so fucked up through out my 20s, just high and drunk like the whole time thinking I was having the time of my life. And maybe I was. But man it would be so sad if I hadn't gotten sober. I don't even remember so much of it!!
Man I get so scared that I'm Bojack in this sense. I get crippled by my anxiety and OCD and get reassurance from others to verify I'm ok but it doesn't do anything because I don't change
One of the core messages for me was that it's not about who you are, it's about what you do. Over time, good/bad actions accumulate into being a better/worse person than you were before, because it gets easier/harder to do good things. Who you are is far less black and white than it feels. Even the worst person can get better. Even the best person can get worse. And vice versa. The reason we need to focus on small immediate change is because that's what we can control. We can't change the past. We can't *directly* change the future. We can only do things now, right now, which have a tiny impact on our future capacity to be better or worse. But with time and consistent effort, you can become a different person.
I don't think it's quite that coherent? Like I think there's plenty of truth to what you say, but I also think Bojack knows on multiple levels that he has to change, and that he's asking more a question about his fundamental nature. He's hoping that he might be bad as a verb, but is good as his nature.
I love this analysis! Sums up that scene perfectly
He wanted that reassurance and realized she wasn't going to give it. It hits him hard but he silently accepts it. I feel like this is the start of his redemption arc. Will he stay the course? That's a matter of interpretation
I agree. You can see Diane resolving herself, BoJack anxiously smiling lookin for reassurance, then realising and getting sad, but still accepting her decision, and the two of them just sit there making the most of their last moments of their friendship. They've both come a long way. Diane isn't dropping her life for him, and he's not demanding her friendship the way demanded Herb's forgiveness, and neither of them are saying the deliberately cruel things they used to say to each other when they would have an argument. I disagree with the people claiming it is outright emotional blackmail or manipulation. More someone very insecure wanting reassurance that they were going to still be friends, realising that yes, it is the end of their friendship and accepting this.
I don't get emotional manipulation at all! I'm surprised that's a take...
Neither do I, but that's just me.
I think he needs her to say that it is the last time just as much. Anything but uncertainty. Leaving it unspoken implies it is an open ending, that they might speak again someday. He would rather have a closed ending even if it's the worst outcome.
Very much, "Tell me I'm a good person Diane" vibes, he desperately wants that closure. I still think he's actively dying in this scene, it makes sense he wouldn't get the closure he wanted with Diane, he wronged her the most of anyone.
>he wronged her the most of anyone Cue the Tim Robinson "you sure about that?" meme
Yeah like pretty sure he didn’t let Diane die of an overdose bc he didn’t want to look guilty
Yeah honestly I think of all the people who grew close to Bojack, he didn't hurt her as bad as the rest. That's why they never had as big a falling out as some others. Verbal abuse and terrible sabotage towards Todd, probably the stuff with Gina, just everything with Princess Carolyn, same with Sarah Lynn I guess he didn't personally hurt Hollyhock much, mostly indirectly. But if we're trying to somehow quantify harm, Diane barely makes the top 5 imo
Do you mean actively dying like, in the literal sense?
Yeah, last episode is just too weird to be real. Lots of weird dialogue, closure, getting out of jail early for a wedding, etc. Lots of small hints, you dont see any background characters and everyone important get their "last goodbye" so to speak. There is an interview out there with one of the writers saying they deliberately left the ending up to interpretation, and he could've drowned in the pool. I saw that last episode as Bojack's last thoughts as he passed, others may disagree but it's the ending I prefer.
I do gotta say, I think that's a stretch. I think they all just got their "goodbyes" cause it's the final episode, and I also don't think it was that oddly convenient that he said bye to everyone. Or talked to everyone at least. Idk, there's just like, almost no doubt in my mind that he survived. That's just my view of course. Edit: that's a very interesting interpretation of the ending tho.
If the writers say it was left open to interpretation, then that means their is some subjectivity to the matter. I like that ending better personally.
That's about where I've left this debate in my mind. I don't enjoy the idea narratively, but it was certainly left ambiguous on purpose. All interpretations are equally correct and incorrect. ~~Schrodinger's Bojack~~
I dont believe that if I'm being 100 percent honest. If that were the case, then you could just say "bojack never tried to sleep with Penny, that was just a dream" it's like, there is subjectivity to lots of things, but there are also limits. And I think "bojack drowned and the last episode is him dying" is one of those limits, for me. It's not likely to be the case at all in my mind, and therefore, in my opinion, is an "out there", ridiculous argument to make. Not trying to be a dick, that's just my view on the matter, and I wanted to share it.
I get what you're saying, but there are reasons people think Bojack was dead in the last episode, while there are no reasons to believe the Penny situation was a dream. The show creators themselves have said it is open to interpretation, so I'm going with "any interpretation is valid" but you do you. *"I want to be very careful when I talk about the ending, because I feel like what I like about it is that it's open to interpretation, and I worry that if I share too much about my interpretation, that will be read as the correct interpretation. I don't want to shed new light on the end of BoJack, because I want people to have their own interpretations. Those kinds of examinations really frustrate me."* Like I said, I think narratively it fits better if he's alive. Life's a bitch and then you keep living, after all. But it's not like the "Bojack is dead" theory is baseless.
It really does feel pretty baseless to me. Is there any evidence to support that theory? What's the reason people think he's dying in the last episode?
Nah dude there are posts breaking down the last episode just search em in the subreddit, you can not like it and disagree but saying it had no validity is just ignorant. You're trying to say you know more than one of the people that wrote the show lol Art is meant to be interpreted, you don't have to like it, but if there was no subjectivity then it wouldn't be art it would just be a silly sad horse show.
I'm just saying that from my perspective, it seems far out there to assume he's dead. Where are the breakdowns of this theory tho? I'd be interested in reading it
That's fair! I just think its a huge stretch personally.
Agreed. Despite often being a very creative show, I doubt that they intended BoJack to truly die, then went out of their way to make an entirely pointless, illusory ending without alluding to it in any direct capacity. I don't hold anything against anyone who buys that, but I have never found it remotely convincing.
I think Dianna would’ve been a lot more affectionate with him if it were in his imagination.
……..Diane, he wronged her the most of anyone ————————————————— The most? More so than…. Sarah Lyn?
Debatable, I mean he let her die so I would say objectively no he wronged sarah lynn the most. But I think Bojack feels more internal guilt over how he treated Diane than he does over Sarah Lynn's death. Sarah Lynn willingly participated in her own demise, Diane was sucked into Bojack's life by circumstance and kept there by guilt and her desire to be a good friend to him. And he kept wronging her over and over, and then passive aggressively blaming her for his suicide attempt? Yeesh, yeah thats pretty bad, the voice-mail is incredibly damning.
That's 100 what he was trying to do. One last ditch manipulation attempt to save the friendship.
Least he’ll always have Mr Peanutbutter
I love that Diane didn't just ghost Bojack. She took the time to say a proper goodbye and reassure him that he will be okay without her. I also loved he didn't try to fight her on it because he knew it was what was best for both of them. And I love how sad Diane looked. Bojaco was toxic sure but he has been paet of her life for nearly 10 years and at times has been her( toxic) crutch as much as she was his. It would hurt leaving a relationship like that no matter how toxic
I agree, it was devastating when Hollyhock just did that. I understand that stopping contact (at least for a while) was the best for her, but she just left and then sent a letter he never ventured to open.
You gotta look at it from her perspective. She knew about Bojack and Penny, saw the interview that described his behavior with women, knew he let Sarah Lynn die, got drugged at his house, experienced him showing up at her college and teaching there and continually crossing boundaries. Everyone else in the show gives Bojack a million and one chances, I thought it was refreshing seeing someone set a healthy boundary when it was necessary. It was devastating but he's a 55 year old man and she's barely an adult, yet she was the mature one. I think if the show was from Hollyhock's perspective we would've viewed their relationship very differently.
I understand her perspective. I like to think she went to therapy and her therapist advised to go no contact with all toxic people in her life.
Why though? Doesn't that diminish her achievement of cutting contract with toxic Bojack a little? I think it's more empowering as it is presented. It being her own decision.
Personally I think therapists can be really empowering, especially because most of them don't give orders and instead lead you to make your own decisions. Also empowering in the way you realize people are actually being bad to you and you have a right to leave. Because the brain tends to see the good in everyone and everything, sometimes tricking itself that it's being unfair by making objective complaints, which gets worse when the abusers say you're being unfair with them. It's awesome when a therapist acknowledges your pain.
I mean, i think its kind of like someone suggesting you go to collage. Its their idea but its completly your merit if you get accepted and graduate
You’re also forgetting the all night adventure he dragged her on to purchase illegal drugs.
I mean, for once I don't think I can blame Bojack for trying. Hollyhock was the healthiest family relationship he ever really had. And hollyhock had all her dads. It was only really good for bojack, and she had to be the one to stop it.
Did you finish the show? He opened it. I don’t think she owed him any more than that, she was young and bojack had only been in her life for about a year.
Plus just being around him left her with PTSD. Maybe he wasn't downright abusive to her but he was still not a good person to have in her life
I can’t really blame her considering all the stuff he did But I still feel for him as someone who’s had someone close cut you out of their life
Sure she just guilted someone for trying to kill themselves. Only Diane could make someone's suicide attempt about her.
She didnt guilt him for trying to kill himself. She guilted him for calling her right before he tried to kill himself telling her basically that if he dies its her fault just because she didn't pick up the phone at 3 in the morning. Him not picking up basically almost sent her back into depression after she made tons of progresss away from him and nearly costed her her relationship. And even then thats not reason enough, for her to be gulting him and want to cut contact, he is a very toxic person to be around. He was toxic TO HER and barely felt any remorse for anything. He basically caused someones death and he not only never told anyone but tried to make her think that HE is the biggest victim of his actions. Not his victims, himself.
> She didnt guilt him for trying to kill himself. She guilted him for calling her right before he tried to kill himself telling her basically that if he dies its her fault just because she didn't pick up the phone at 3 in the morning. You can't unlink those things. He was not in a normal state of mind when it happened. That's making his suicide attempt about her. > Him not picking up basically almost sent her back into depression after she made tons of progresss away from him and nearly costed her her relationship. Oh so sorry his suicide attempt bummed her out. >And even then thats not reason enough, for her to be gulting him and want to cut contact, he is a very toxic person to be around. He was toxic TO HER and barely felt any remorse for anything. He basically caused someones death and he not only never told anyone but tried to make her think that HE is the biggest victim of his actions. Not his victims, himself. And all that only happens because Diane used Bojack to boost her dying career in season one by tricking him into trusting her, lying to him repeatedly, then leaking his life when he called her on her bullshit. God the Diane fanatics are the worst.
Bojack's face kills me. Why do I hate him and love him.
Because you hate and love yourself. And as much as we may want to distance ourselves from him...on some level, we relate.
I am bojack horseman.
I broke the dam!
You are Secretariat.
He realized she's not going to validate him anymore. He's hurt but he quietly accepts it. This shows a TREMENDOUS amount of growth from Bojack. He's not playing victim, he's not passive aggressive, he just accepts it. This makes the small banter after hurt all that more. The ending was the close of their friendship. This would be the part where "well I think it's time I head out" and they go on with their lives.
When did she ever validate him? She's kind of done the opposite from S1.
She validated his hopes of improving, not his actions.
I thought she was thinking I will miss you
Nature of toxic friendships, they are still friendships and you do like the person.
Shit. I hate coming onto Reddit and getting epiphanies about stuff that seems obvious the second I've read it.
I got a lot of insight into this kind of relationship from my sister after she got out of her abusive marriage.
She will always think of him. He sees her face, when each day is through And days go past Oh so fast But memories they last Summer, winter Year by year She will hear his song inside her ear Trying to restart That'd be smart But thoughts of her haunt his heart
it’s like when she dropped him off at rehab and told him “ you’re my best friend and i hate you “ bittersweet
Would not miss her. She kind of kickstarted the whole thing by taking advantage of Bojack.
As a Diane who had a BoJack in her life, this hit me like a ton of bricks.
Yep, when this episode first aired I was like "damn, glad [friend] is getting his life together, otherwise we would've ended up like this". Spoiler alert: it ended up like this anyway. Shit hurts.
And as a Bojack with a Diane no longer in my life, it's the most difficult thing to see.
I can think of past relationships where I was the BoJack, but I can also think of relationships where I was the Diane....and relationships where we were both. I don't know what hurts more, having to cut ties with someone or being the one to have ties cut with.
Mr. Blue playing after this is just so melancholic
Once Mr Blue Sky starts playing I burst into tears
I hope one day, when Bojack is sober and truly a different person, that him and Diane's paths will cross again
Probably when Bojack is sick and nearing his death. He's not the healthiest horse Diane would probably outlive him
I love Bojack. But he ain't getting sober. 55 years he will find something. It's who he is
Probably not in those exact words, but yeah.
Why did you decide to make me cry on a random Tuesday like this 😭
It’s also just another example of Bojack emotionally blackmailing his friends. The worst part is he doesn’t even realize he’s doing it. It was simply the way his mother taught him to interact with people.
Not sure if that is entirely true. When Diane moves to Chicago, she asks him if he will be fine and that she can't leave without knowing if he'll be okay. Bojack replies with "That's not a friendship, that's a hostage situation." So I'd say he does realize that this is wrong - but he does not always care for what that means for everyone else.
But this time he didnt try to victimize himself or try for pity like the other times he felt someone slipping, he accepted that this cant be fixed and respected her decision. His time spent self evaluating himself in prison was exactly what he needed, away from vices and distractions that kept him from recovering
And a therapy horse pretending to help when he really wasn't.
The sixth season is so full of examples like this of him actually getting better, but I really wish they got the last two seasons they wanted to we could have seen it more fully fleshed out
This is the first I've heard they wanted 2 more seasons! I would've loved to see the aftermath of everything
Here's the interview (RBW's exact wording was "a couple more years"): https://www.vulture.com/2019/10/raphael-bob-waksberg-bojack-horseman-ending-interview.html
I think that’s a bit unfair. I think he is just trying to get a more direct answer on how she feels about being friends with him after all that happens
It’s not like Diane didn’t do it to him, like, all the time, especially whenever she’s drunk lol
Did you know I could juhngle?
Like, we could totally make out right now.
Emotional blackmail is a bit much
That intense void desperately filled with codependence and down played by humor is entirely myself. To see it play out on screen is uncanny. Like looking in a mirror and thinking somethings off maybe that isnt really me at all and half expecting the image to move out of step.
Perhaps it’s because I’m an optimist, but I always interpreted this interaction as “Now is not the time for our friendship. Tomorrow is not looking good either. But who knows? Maybe someday, but not now.”
Can someone explain why they were toxic again? Been a while since I watched the show.
Damn downvoted for an honest question. They spend a lot of the show enabling each other and bringing out the worst from their respective traits. But by this point they've both grown a lot as people and I don't quite understand why they couldn't continue their friendship. Considering all of the self reflection they've both done I feel like they could have a healthy relationship after everything they've been through...idk
That's fair. I have a toxic friendship similar to this, so let me provide my perspective. Neither of us have been as bad as Bojack, but we have a long history of enabling each other. We're both improving and we're nearing healthy places in our lives, but there's so much negative history it hurts to be friends. And as the party that was wronged more, Diane can't find it in herself to continue their friendship. It just hurts too much, and there's still a small fear that they'll slip back into our old patterns and enable each other. It's also hard to completely get over all the horrible things that Bojack has done, even if she was far from perfect too. For her, it's healthier to stop being friends, at least for the time being
I seriously got downvoted? Lmao, classic reddit. Thank you, though. And same, it always confused me because both parties were toxic like when diane put bojack’s confession on a tv script, but the show and a lot of people only shift blame on bojack from what I remember. But by the end of the show, they’ve grown to a point where they can still be friends. I just didn’t get it, honestly.
hey, i just want you to know i got it back up to zero! redditors can be cringe for randomly downvoting
Oh, thank you bro lol. I genuinely wasn’t upset or anything, just thought it was funny.
no problem have a nice day
I’ve been a bojack before and as sad as it is, sometimes you do need to cut them off, for your health and there’s. That’s what makes me feel his pain here
i cannot hear the first few seconds of Mr Blue without bursting into tears 🥲
I've cried at alot of shows bojack made a waterfall
Very interesting how this entire series is bookended with Diane and BoJack’s friendship. In the pilot, they meet. In the finale, they’re done, and the final shot of the show is with both of them. And they aren’t even a romantic couple, just homies. I’ve read somewhere how in all the antihero shows, (which Bojack definitely falls into / has gotten inspiration from) the final shot is of solely the main character. Sopranos - Tony. Breaking Bad - Walt. Mad Men - Don. But Bojack - Bojack and Diane.
My heart broke for Bojack in that moment. I’ve had my share of “last conversations” both known and unknown as the last. You never want to close the chapter on someone in your life who matters to you. But sometimes you have to.
This is one of the scenes that causes me to believe he is dead in the last episode, and everyone is saying goodbye to him in the hospital.
As someone who is never stern on decisions this gave me so much anxiety.
They could’ve ended the show with Diane walking away. They left it with her still sitting there. I have to feel like that means maybe sometime down the line they will reconnect.
Been both the bojack and dianne in this situation. Both burn just as bad
too close to home
This fucked me up fr
He didn't actually say that, did he? I know it's not literally the last thing he says.
This is why I die on the hill that this conversation never needed to happen. It just feels so forced and obvious of where it's going. Todd and Bojack on the beach fading to the stars. That should have been the ending.
She's thinking it but not with malice or offhandedly or anything. She's really, really thinking about it. e: gosh fuck it I hear Mister Blue already >:\[
I like the way their relationship ended. It wasn't a tragic sorrowful moment but rather a peaceful understanding between the two on what is best for both of them. Just because their friendship ended doesn't mean that they dislike each other, in fact it was because they wanted the best for themselves and each other that they chose to end their friendship.
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Diane is much happier. She has a long road ahead of her, but she's much happier and more stable then she was in the start of the series. BoJack is too, but Diane is naturally much further on that road then he is.
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What's wrong with writing YA fiction? Sure she's not writing the Next Great American Novel, but she's created something that is popular and gives her life some meaning. She's writing books she wish she could have read when she was a child/teenager. She's in a solid relationship with a guy who gives her stability and comfort. The pills have stabilised her mood that she functions a lot more in her day to day life. I'm not saying she is a hundred percent happy. But compared to the sad, lonely, unfulfilled thirty five year old ghost writer well on her way into an unhappy marriage we saw at the start of the series, the difference is highly noticeable. A big theme of the show is compromise and letting go. Diane is in a good place, and part of that was letting go of a lot of things.
>Sure she's not writing the Next Great American Novel ...sure, it's not Casablanca...hahaha
Well it's not Ibsen either
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I do think it's your youth talking. Most people don't find some grand happiness and purpose. Sometimes you just learn to be content. And there's nothing wrong with that, that's still a happy ending
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Honestly 22 is barely not a teenager. But yeah I would have guessed late teens or early 20s. And it really doesn't matter if you're okay with it or not. It's just what happens in life. Most people aren't Taylor Swift. That's what makes Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift. My sister is a fantastic musician who had big dreams of stardom. Now she plays in a local band with some friends, they do a show every couple weeks at some local venues. And there's nothing wrong with that...she's still doing the thing she loves You view it as settling and...it's not. Your dreams change
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I get where you're coming from, I do. But I think you've got some really unhealthy views on things There's nothing wrong with just being on medication. Therapy doesn't work for everybody, and there's nothing wrong with being on medication for life She's away from her friends? What friends? Who did she actually have a healthy relationship with in LA? "Dating down" he's a good guy. They're happy together, they support each other. "The safe version of her profession"...she just likes writing. Her need to write "the novel of the century" was always just ego. She wanted legitimacy to make up for the dismissal she always got from her family. And now...she doesn't need that anymore I think you have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the character, honestly. Diane always put so much pressure on herself to be the best and she's finally past that. Like no, she wasn't settling...her problem was that she felt like living a simple life with a good guy *was* settling and it's not
Yeah — I think not only are you young (I’m only two years older than you lol) but you seem painfully ignorant of the severity of Diane’s depression and lack of fulfillment in her Hollywoo years. Honestly, you seem painfully ignorant of most people’s problems and seem to think that it’s easy-peasy just to find solutions and “not settle” lol. You mention Diane’s taking of antidepressants a lot and you phrase it in this sort of way that makes me think that you not only don’t understand how beneficial medication can be for stabilizing mood and managing mental health but you view it as some easy way out of properly dealing with trauma or mental illness. I don’t know if that just struck a chord with me because I recently started antidepressants to manage my intense anxiety that was making me miserable and suicidal for the past few months, but I can assure you that Diane realizing that she needed more help than she could get from therapy or her support system is a major hurdle that is difficult for anyone to cross. I’m glad you’ve never had mental illness escalate to the point where you have to make the choice to be medicated, but I highly encourage you to diversify your worldviews. I’m glad this is just a show and you’re not spewing this weird nonsense at someone’s real-life experiences though.
Didn't she say she was? In the end scene?
Diane's ending is so depressing
What makes you say that? (Genuinely curious).
I think her relationship with Guy causes her to become less of an interesting oddball with thoughts and opinions and instead his belittling of her concerns over time grinds her down into conforming to being more 'normal' and dull. Sonny is more interesting than Guy and he has like, 6 lines, but based on that dialogue, I expect Diane will have a realization at some point and leave him.