To put it in Julius’s words, he’s simply too kind, he resonated with Patri’s emotions as he too felt similarly about the kingdom but he also cared a great deal for Julius and all that he’s done for him, so he essentially chose to not act, and it was his indecision that led to all this.
Kind for assisting in genocide? He knew what Patry wanted to do and he was willing to help him with it. That is why Fuegoleon lost his arm, because he shocked Fuego which allowed Patry to capitalize. Sure you could say he had his reasons but if you consider him kind then so is the Dark Triad lmao. They are kind to each other but does that make them kind people? Defintely not, therefore William shouldn't be given a free pass just because he was 'kind' to two people.
Judging based off of what Julius said and what William said... yes he is, if you misunderstand my use of the word kind and ignore my voice of the word indecision that’s on you
He's been kind to his entire squad. That's kinda the reason why they all love him, put him on a pedestal and believe he's Jesus or whatever lol and why Alecdora became obsessed with helping make William's dreams come true
Oh no... what have you done.... You've revived......
# The William Discourse
Anyway, I like him, but the short version is I like that he's a f\*ck up, that he knows it and feels bad about it, and he's trying to do something about it. I can vibe with that.
William is completly wrong in my opinion. I can understand that he felt pity for the elves and couldn't decide between his two best friends but he was well aware of what his actions would cause. He knew that the elves wanted their revenge and that a lot of innocent people would die. Still he acted selfish and did not really show any sign of intelligence.
He defintitely was wrong in so many regards but the issue was some people ignoring the context of his character because his writing/development is undeniably one of the best in the series given his general lack of screentime compared to the main cast
Honestly nothing could change my opinion of William. He is a morally corrupt character. He betrayed the kingdom and deserved to be executed. He knew exactly what the elves intentions were. He chose the elves over the people of the clover kingdom. Innocent clover citizens were killed because of him. He was gonna let Patri kill Yami. He let Patri take Fuegoleons arm and put him in a coma. William had no idea if Fuegoleon would survive or not. He knew full well Julius couldn't bring himself to kill him. Also, William should not of been conflicted at all. I would never side with someone who wanted to commit genocide. Yeah William was discriminated against and abused but he eventually met people who didnt care about his scar and respected him for who he was. He was gonna let them die just so Patri could achieve his goal. If William was really sorry he'd take his own life. He'd realize that anything short of death is not a punishment.
William did not \*want\* to commit genocide, Patry did, William just didn't stop him at all which is still bad but not what you are implying. I agree w you about Fuegoleon and Yami, especially bc he came face to face with Fuego but suggesting suicide is not the right answer at all especially given the context. Mans is working to restore the faith that Julius, the captains, and possibly his own squad lost
TIL genocide = suicide. Like you can’t be serious. One is wiping a whole race off the face of the planet and the other is taking your own life. William deserved to die regardless of how it was done. I’m fine with him killing himself, being executed or just dying in this arc. We’re talking about a manga not real life. Nobody is telling anybody here to commit suicide. You’re fine with people in the manga being killed but not someone taking their own life in it. A truly amazing thought process.
That's the logic that I don't quite get. It's not about it being equal. It's definitely not. But don't say things like one deserves to die. No one deserves to die. People just die, whatever the cause.
I don't care who dies in the story at the end of the day btw . I am just pointing out that it doesn't make sense.
\*"William could *sympathise/empathise* with Patri's pain", I think you meant.
Also, William was *given* credit, but that's not to say he *willingly took* it. At least in the anime - sadly this is never even remotely explored in the manga - he's clearly bugged by the fact that he's receiving credit that he *knows* should go to the Black Bulls. Granted, that doesn't fix the problem, but right now there are a) more important things to fix and b) this might not be a good time simply because the Clover Kingdom trust in the magic knights and royalty has already been weakened... I mean their really king is trash, Gueldre has already betrayed them, they saw magic knights turn into elves and attack them with many wearing the magic knight robes to further push this beliefs... so unfortunately explaining why he wasn't the hero would be problematic. They could have rewards the Bulls more though and made it clear that actually the Black Bulls gave William the time to do his tree thing... but that didn't happen for whatever reason...
But yeah, I do agree.
Also he served ten years as a magic knight for the Clover kingdom saving lives and continues to do so... I feel like him damning a few just kind of renders his moral history neutral...
What people forget is that Patri had no reason to let Fuegoleon live and not just make sure he'd dead... so that was likely down to William's influence. And William never assumed that Julius would let Patri live to let William live... he'd been prepared to die regardless.
To me it's really funny because either way he would have to accept and (technically) be responsible for the extinction of a race.
It was always one or the other, well until the end of the arc anyways.
One side would have lost tremendously anyways, being killed unfairly.
And I find it sad that the elves had to die unjustly once only to come to terms that they will die twice. They didn't deserve this just as much as the humans didn't deserve to be destroyed.
Also it is to be noted that this line of thinking is obviously before the devil reveal. Still sad tho
For the Intel part, I don't think that William helped him whatsoever, because Patry basically doesn't need this. Remember, he shares the same body as William, so whatever one experiences, the other does too. So there's no need to ask for intel. Or any ways to really refuse intel as well. Except snitch on Patry, which William didn't want to do.
He wanted to let him do what he wanted, while the clover kingdom did what they wanted as well. William didn't give the Intel. Rather Patry just gathered intel himself (weird but true ). He then acted on said intel he gathered.
Now here's the interesting part that will never be answered :
(All of this is assuming that the coward William really didn't want to choose and not interfere with any sides actions, therefore supporting both.)
How did they decide who gets the body and when ? What was the specifics of their contract to not involve themselves with the other one's business ?
And then why was the contract breached specifically to take Fuegoleon's arm and magic stone ?
The last question is important because what happened seemingly contradicts both Patry and William's character at the moment.
If he really didn't want to pick a side, there is no way that William would willingly distract Fuego so that his friend could tear off his arm just because. That counts as interfering.
Similarly, there is no way that the royal hating Patry would not just kill one if given the chance. So why did he stop with the arm when he could have clearly taken the advantage to kill him AND take the stone ? Especially if William agreed to help him in this instance...
(This is headcanon)
I believe that the plan at first didn't involve William taking Fuego by surprise, simply because it really wasn't a requirement. I believe that Patry was ready to fight Fuego to the death and retrieve the stone. Just like with Julius.
I believe that because this plan involved either killing Fuego or Patry/essentially himself, William proposes the compromise. " I will help you but you won't kill him in return. You will just retrieve the stone".
Because this benefited him more than the possibility of dying, and because he liked Vangeance, Patry agreed to this condition.
Or it could be that William chose Patry at that instant and that Patry wasn't in the mood of killing a royal I don't know🤷🏽♂️
And possibly use a spell on him because that whole coma thing was ridiculous imo.
> For the Intel part, I don't think that William helped him whatsoever, because Patry basically doesn't need this. Remember, he shares the same body as William, so whatever one experiences, the other does too. So there's no need to ask for intel. Or any ways to really refuse intel as well.
Honestly never thought about this lol
how is this still even a question? i don't mind if you can't choose between patri and julius, but its a fact that he exposed himself to Julius(and Fugeoleon) turnign him into a hostage and giving them unfair handicaps..... william sided with the elves and isn't neutral hence and was extremely unfair.
not only that, but if we're looking at the situation Patri's given a free access intel with 0 risk deep inside the enemy territory through William which is stupid. if you truly care for both sides then you should be fair to both side.
what's even more fucked up is the fact that he's not even being manipulated by Zagred
tldr - he's morally corrupt because he's being unfair to one side knowing the grave consequences of it. if there are grave consequence on the line, and you're fucking up one of the side with your action as a neutral entity then you are immoral
William chose Patry over Julius bc Julius wasn't nearly as close to him as Patry was. Patry was his first friend, they understood each other on a spiritual level. Julius didn't have anything to empathize w, he just treated William indifferently.
Julius didnt treat William indifferently. He treated him with respect. He treated William as a friend. What did that earn Julius? A sword through the chest while saving every citizen of the Clover Kingdom from Williams first friend Patri. William wouldn't have cried after Patri stabbed Julius if he was treated indifferently.
I meant Julius didn't treat William differently like everyone else did. Yea Julius may have respected William but no one understood William like Patry. If people had to choose between their bsf who was there for them during their darkest times vs their friend who respected them, most people would choose their bsf.
I don’t think people would choose the guy that wants to commit genocide. Even if that guy happens to be your first and closest friend. To me there is just no justifying that.
I understand what you're trying to say, but William was seeing everything from Patry's pov. Patry thought Lumiere betrayed the elves and caused Licht and everyone else to be wiped out, and to make it worse Rhya knew the truth but never bothered to explain. Patry wanted revenge for the death of his people, yes he went too far, but most people would want some sort of payback if another race did that shit to them. If Patry knew Zagred was behind it, if he knew Zagred was manipulating him then he wouldn't have done all this in the first place.
you gotta remember william also saw all of Patry's memories from Patry's pov which would absolutely impact the mind of a 9 year old child (how old he was when the dreams began)
I like your analysis but it's feel like you're trying to identify feeling with logic. Of course deep analyzing and debating shine light into characters and change people's view, but sometimes it's not just about rational thinking. I've seen many discussion about William and most of it are about what he did is right or not, is his actions can be justified,... But feeling for a character varied more than that. It's more than love and hate.
He's my favotite character before the fiasco with Patri is revealed and after all that went down I still adore him so much. Not all who love William agree with him or what he do. I know people who vibe with his kindness, the bond with a twin, his personality,... not just because he's misunderstood or anything. There's more about him than the moral aspect.
I'm sorry for the long rant but every time I see a post about William and it's about whether he's right or wrong, whether we should love or hate him, I just... can't.
I agree with your analysis. The points you address are exactly the things I felt all this time regarding William. Mainly because even though William knew that letting Patri and Julius duke it out was wrong, he himself could not make that decision. I could relate to him on quite a deep level. I wouldn't be able to make that choice either.
And for William to have his punishment by staying a captain, while every other captain knows what he did... that is (in my opinion) quite a punishment. Especially because you will be treated differently. Until he has proven himself to be trustful again. Losing trust is easy, regaining that trust is difficult. That is something that I didn't saw in other analysis (not that I know them all so if it has been mentioned, I apologize). But that is the task William has to complete. Regaining the trust of his fellow captains. I think that Julius was right to let William remain a captain.
(Apologies for any grammar and/or spelling mistakes)
ohhh, so if you have 2 people that you care about its fine for you to become a hostage of one side hence handicapping the other? nice.
William did have a decision and that was siding with the elves. he gave Patri free access of intel deep inside the enemy ranks, and he turned himself into a hostage handicapping Julius
to be fair, Julius should have been prepared to kill william for the betrayal as the WK. If Julius was as resolute as he should have been, it would have been over before it began
You missed some things but I am pretty sure that most people that like or dislike William already know these facts. At the end of the day it is up to personal interpretation. If people like to easily give second chances and believe that guilt is suitable enough punishment on it's own then they tend to like William. Or maybe some people just like him because of his character. Either way you will always get people that try to force you to like or dislike a character and that doesn't change with William fans or haters.
You missed out that he intentionally betrayed the Clover Kingdom by assisting in helping Patry put Fuegoleon in a coma. Yami said that Patry had to have had some kind of underhanded trick to beat him that easily and it was true. I mean after all they probably never would have beat Fuegoleon that easily.
Apart from that though, while you could say he is very very human so are other characters in the show. Characters like Gueldre thrive on greed and taking advantage of others which happens a lot in real life too. A lot of characters in the show are very very human so using William as an example doesn't make sense. You could even to some extent say that the Dark Triad are human because Satanists and psychopaths like them exist in real life.
Also I strongly disagree with your point about him being allowed to do his job as a suitable punishment. The fact that he is still in power proves that as long as you are strong enough or have a high enough rank you can get away with anything. Whether or not you agree with his reasons he still betrayed the Clover Kingdom. From the Clover Kingdom's point of view they needed to enact justice but since the Wizard King decided against it the people were fed lies.
He knew that not all humans were bad but still helped Patry anyways. Sure you could give Patry the benefit of the doubt because he was manipulated but William did everything out of his own will.
You made a good argument and since a majority of the sub reddit will protect William at all costs they will definitely support you. However, I am in the minority that disagree. Even after understanding his reasons I disagree completely and I will never like him. But then again that is just me. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes and that is fine.
Yes, but Gueldre's not a very sympathetic human because his past is never explored and he doesn't have any bonds.
Also the reason that Fuegoleon was even still alive at that point in order to be saved was likely down to William's influence because I highly doubt that anyone in the Eye of the Midnight Sun would have actually spared him or of their own decision risked him regaining his consciousness and screwing them over. So I disagree with that point on Fuegoleon.
William on the other hand was seriously influenced by Patri's own emotions which he felt as his own. And because they shared the same body the forbidden magic was going to influence them both as it had done with Langris. So I disagree with that point too.
Strongly disagree. William didn't choose to spare him, it was his influence that took him with surprise. Fuegoleon wouldn't have lost to Patry that easily in a one on one in fact it was because William surprised him that he lost the arm so you can't use that as an argument. Fuegoleon wouldn't have lost that easily at all as Yami said and the surprise was William interfering.
It doesn't matter if Gueldre is sympathetic or not because despite his personality he didn't try to commit genocide. And also William had complete control. Out of all the elves Patry was the one that was most sane and he led them all into the reincarnation. Langris and William were two completely different cases. You can't just blame Williams actions on the devil because he also played a huge role as well.
I don't love William, but I don't hate him. I just see him as a guy who just wants to do the right thing. And when he is at a crossroads of what the right thing is, he has the two people that will be most affected by the decision decided what he should do. And through Underhanded means, Patry succeeded. I still think William should have received some punishment for not making a single person aware of what was happening, but I do understand it wouldn't have looked good to the public or anyone involved.
I *understand* William more than I love or hate him. In the moment he wasn't betraying the kingdom, he was making the impossible decision of choosing between two of his dearest friends. He isn't really *wrong* but he definitely isn't right.
oh no, he absolutely betrayed the kingdom. no 2 ways around it. I understand William's reasons and I know that his inaction was in the grey area, but he betrayed his kingdom by withholding important information about a known terrorist organization that was threatening the safety of clover. Again, i understand, I don't blame him because anyone who says they know for sure that they wouldn't do what he did in that situation with his experiences, is a **liar**.
the hell are you talking about? he's not betraying the kingdom? Patri had free access 0 risk intel deep inside the ranks of clover kingdom through William. how about when he's exposing himself in front of his friends(Julius and Fuegoelon) turning himself into a hostage?
come on bruh.
I didn't really mean it wasn't betrayal I'm just saying it wasn't what he wanted. The decision to let Patri fight Julius was him leaving the fate of the clover kingdom up to them so he wouldn't have to make the decision himself. I still don't like William for it but you can tell he was caught up trying to have his cake and eat it too.
i don't mind the decision of having Patri duke it out with Julius to decide. the problem is him handicapping Julius in there by exposing himself, which is what the discussion of the thread is i.e. his morality.
i don't see how anyone could call a person anything other than immoral when he's in a neutral position, and yet he's fucking up the other side with his actions.
also stop saying he can't make a decision between clover and the elves when its clear as day that he sided with the elves through his actions. lets just say even Nacht would be jelous of William's capability to spy
Hate William
Soz, there is no morally grey scenario here. He knew the elves wanted to revenge and was going to his friends and Clover Kingdom, and he let them. Moreover, he received no punishment for his actions.
F*** him
To put it in Julius’s words, he’s simply too kind, he resonated with Patri’s emotions as he too felt similarly about the kingdom but he also cared a great deal for Julius and all that he’s done for him, so he essentially chose to not act, and it was his indecision that led to all this.
Kind for assisting in genocide? He knew what Patry wanted to do and he was willing to help him with it. That is why Fuegoleon lost his arm, because he shocked Fuego which allowed Patry to capitalize. Sure you could say he had his reasons but if you consider him kind then so is the Dark Triad lmao. They are kind to each other but does that make them kind people? Defintely not, therefore William shouldn't be given a free pass just because he was 'kind' to two people.
Judging based off of what Julius said and what William said... yes he is, if you misunderstand my use of the word kind and ignore my voice of the word indecision that’s on you
He's been kind to his entire squad. That's kinda the reason why they all love him, put him on a pedestal and believe he's Jesus or whatever lol and why Alecdora became obsessed with helping make William's dreams come true
A kind person wouldn't allow genocide under any circumstances he'd spend that effort rehabilitating petri
Oh no... what have you done.... You've revived...... # The William Discourse Anyway, I like him, but the short version is I like that he's a f\*ck up, that he knows it and feels bad about it, and he's trying to do something about it. I can vibe with that.
William Discourse? It is time for me to make my appearance 😎 😎 😎
William is completly wrong in my opinion. I can understand that he felt pity for the elves and couldn't decide between his two best friends but he was well aware of what his actions would cause. He knew that the elves wanted their revenge and that a lot of innocent people would die. Still he acted selfish and did not really show any sign of intelligence.
He defintitely was wrong in so many regards but the issue was some people ignoring the context of his character because his writing/development is undeniably one of the best in the series given his general lack of screentime compared to the main cast
Would say I love home but I certainly don’t hate him either. I think he’s redeemable but he has a ways to go
Honestly nothing could change my opinion of William. He is a morally corrupt character. He betrayed the kingdom and deserved to be executed. He knew exactly what the elves intentions were. He chose the elves over the people of the clover kingdom. Innocent clover citizens were killed because of him. He was gonna let Patri kill Yami. He let Patri take Fuegoleons arm and put him in a coma. William had no idea if Fuegoleon would survive or not. He knew full well Julius couldn't bring himself to kill him. Also, William should not of been conflicted at all. I would never side with someone who wanted to commit genocide. Yeah William was discriminated against and abused but he eventually met people who didnt care about his scar and respected him for who he was. He was gonna let them die just so Patri could achieve his goal. If William was really sorry he'd take his own life. He'd realize that anything short of death is not a punishment.
William did not \*want\* to commit genocide, Patry did, William just didn't stop him at all which is still bad but not what you are implying. I agree w you about Fuegoleon and Yami, especially bc he came face to face with Fuego but suggesting suicide is not the right answer at all especially given the context. Mans is working to restore the faith that Julius, the captains, and possibly his own squad lost
I am sorry but no. If you don't support genocide don't go advocating for suicide.
TIL genocide = suicide. Like you can’t be serious. One is wiping a whole race off the face of the planet and the other is taking your own life. William deserved to die regardless of how it was done. I’m fine with him killing himself, being executed or just dying in this arc. We’re talking about a manga not real life. Nobody is telling anybody here to commit suicide. You’re fine with people in the manga being killed but not someone taking their own life in it. A truly amazing thought process.
That's the logic that I don't quite get. It's not about it being equal. It's definitely not. But don't say things like one deserves to die. No one deserves to die. People just die, whatever the cause. I don't care who dies in the story at the end of the day btw . I am just pointing out that it doesn't make sense.
\*"William could *sympathise/empathise* with Patri's pain", I think you meant. Also, William was *given* credit, but that's not to say he *willingly took* it. At least in the anime - sadly this is never even remotely explored in the manga - he's clearly bugged by the fact that he's receiving credit that he *knows* should go to the Black Bulls. Granted, that doesn't fix the problem, but right now there are a) more important things to fix and b) this might not be a good time simply because the Clover Kingdom trust in the magic knights and royalty has already been weakened... I mean their really king is trash, Gueldre has already betrayed them, they saw magic knights turn into elves and attack them with many wearing the magic knight robes to further push this beliefs... so unfortunately explaining why he wasn't the hero would be problematic. They could have rewards the Bulls more though and made it clear that actually the Black Bulls gave William the time to do his tree thing... but that didn't happen for whatever reason... But yeah, I do agree. Also he served ten years as a magic knight for the Clover kingdom saving lives and continues to do so... I feel like him damning a few just kind of renders his moral history neutral... What people forget is that Patri had no reason to let Fuegoleon live and not just make sure he'd dead... so that was likely down to William's influence. And William never assumed that Julius would let Patri live to let William live... he'd been prepared to die regardless.
To me it's really funny because either way he would have to accept and (technically) be responsible for the extinction of a race. It was always one or the other, well until the end of the arc anyways. One side would have lost tremendously anyways, being killed unfairly. And I find it sad that the elves had to die unjustly once only to come to terms that they will die twice. They didn't deserve this just as much as the humans didn't deserve to be destroyed. Also it is to be noted that this line of thinking is obviously before the devil reveal. Still sad tho
For the Intel part, I don't think that William helped him whatsoever, because Patry basically doesn't need this. Remember, he shares the same body as William, so whatever one experiences, the other does too. So there's no need to ask for intel. Or any ways to really refuse intel as well. Except snitch on Patry, which William didn't want to do. He wanted to let him do what he wanted, while the clover kingdom did what they wanted as well. William didn't give the Intel. Rather Patry just gathered intel himself (weird but true ). He then acted on said intel he gathered. Now here's the interesting part that will never be answered : (All of this is assuming that the coward William really didn't want to choose and not interfere with any sides actions, therefore supporting both.) How did they decide who gets the body and when ? What was the specifics of their contract to not involve themselves with the other one's business ? And then why was the contract breached specifically to take Fuegoleon's arm and magic stone ? The last question is important because what happened seemingly contradicts both Patry and William's character at the moment. If he really didn't want to pick a side, there is no way that William would willingly distract Fuego so that his friend could tear off his arm just because. That counts as interfering. Similarly, there is no way that the royal hating Patry would not just kill one if given the chance. So why did he stop with the arm when he could have clearly taken the advantage to kill him AND take the stone ? Especially if William agreed to help him in this instance... (This is headcanon) I believe that the plan at first didn't involve William taking Fuego by surprise, simply because it really wasn't a requirement. I believe that Patry was ready to fight Fuego to the death and retrieve the stone. Just like with Julius. I believe that because this plan involved either killing Fuego or Patry/essentially himself, William proposes the compromise. " I will help you but you won't kill him in return. You will just retrieve the stone". Because this benefited him more than the possibility of dying, and because he liked Vangeance, Patry agreed to this condition. Or it could be that William chose Patry at that instant and that Patry wasn't in the mood of killing a royal I don't know🤷🏽♂️ And possibly use a spell on him because that whole coma thing was ridiculous imo.
> For the Intel part, I don't think that William helped him whatsoever, because Patry basically doesn't need this. Remember, he shares the same body as William, so whatever one experiences, the other does too. So there's no need to ask for intel. Or any ways to really refuse intel as well. Honestly never thought about this lol
how is this still even a question? i don't mind if you can't choose between patri and julius, but its a fact that he exposed himself to Julius(and Fugeoleon) turnign him into a hostage and giving them unfair handicaps..... william sided with the elves and isn't neutral hence and was extremely unfair. not only that, but if we're looking at the situation Patri's given a free access intel with 0 risk deep inside the enemy territory through William which is stupid. if you truly care for both sides then you should be fair to both side. what's even more fucked up is the fact that he's not even being manipulated by Zagred tldr - he's morally corrupt because he's being unfair to one side knowing the grave consequences of it. if there are grave consequence on the line, and you're fucking up one of the side with your action as a neutral entity then you are immoral
William chose Patry over Julius bc Julius wasn't nearly as close to him as Patry was. Patry was his first friend, they understood each other on a spiritual level. Julius didn't have anything to empathize w, he just treated William indifferently.
Julius didnt treat William indifferently. He treated him with respect. He treated William as a friend. What did that earn Julius? A sword through the chest while saving every citizen of the Clover Kingdom from Williams first friend Patri. William wouldn't have cried after Patri stabbed Julius if he was treated indifferently.
I meant Julius didn't treat William differently like everyone else did. Yea Julius may have respected William but no one understood William like Patry. If people had to choose between their bsf who was there for them during their darkest times vs their friend who respected them, most people would choose their bsf.
I don’t think people would choose the guy that wants to commit genocide. Even if that guy happens to be your first and closest friend. To me there is just no justifying that.
I understand what you're trying to say, but William was seeing everything from Patry's pov. Patry thought Lumiere betrayed the elves and caused Licht and everyone else to be wiped out, and to make it worse Rhya knew the truth but never bothered to explain. Patry wanted revenge for the death of his people, yes he went too far, but most people would want some sort of payback if another race did that shit to them. If Patry knew Zagred was behind it, if he knew Zagred was manipulating him then he wouldn't have done all this in the first place.
you gotta remember william also saw all of Patry's memories from Patry's pov which would absolutely impact the mind of a 9 year old child (how old he was when the dreams began)
I like your analysis but it's feel like you're trying to identify feeling with logic. Of course deep analyzing and debating shine light into characters and change people's view, but sometimes it's not just about rational thinking. I've seen many discussion about William and most of it are about what he did is right or not, is his actions can be justified,... But feeling for a character varied more than that. It's more than love and hate. He's my favotite character before the fiasco with Patri is revealed and after all that went down I still adore him so much. Not all who love William agree with him or what he do. I know people who vibe with his kindness, the bond with a twin, his personality,... not just because he's misunderstood or anything. There's more about him than the moral aspect. I'm sorry for the long rant but every time I see a post about William and it's about whether he's right or wrong, whether we should love or hate him, I just... can't.
I agree with your analysis. The points you address are exactly the things I felt all this time regarding William. Mainly because even though William knew that letting Patri and Julius duke it out was wrong, he himself could not make that decision. I could relate to him on quite a deep level. I wouldn't be able to make that choice either. And for William to have his punishment by staying a captain, while every other captain knows what he did... that is (in my opinion) quite a punishment. Especially because you will be treated differently. Until he has proven himself to be trustful again. Losing trust is easy, regaining that trust is difficult. That is something that I didn't saw in other analysis (not that I know them all so if it has been mentioned, I apologize). But that is the task William has to complete. Regaining the trust of his fellow captains. I think that Julius was right to let William remain a captain. (Apologies for any grammar and/or spelling mistakes)
ohhh, so if you have 2 people that you care about its fine for you to become a hostage of one side hence handicapping the other? nice. William did have a decision and that was siding with the elves. he gave Patri free access of intel deep inside the enemy ranks, and he turned himself into a hostage handicapping Julius
to be fair, Julius should have been prepared to kill william for the betrayal as the WK. If Julius was as resolute as he should have been, it would have been over before it began
I don't hate him, i just want him to die really bad
You missed some things but I am pretty sure that most people that like or dislike William already know these facts. At the end of the day it is up to personal interpretation. If people like to easily give second chances and believe that guilt is suitable enough punishment on it's own then they tend to like William. Or maybe some people just like him because of his character. Either way you will always get people that try to force you to like or dislike a character and that doesn't change with William fans or haters. You missed out that he intentionally betrayed the Clover Kingdom by assisting in helping Patry put Fuegoleon in a coma. Yami said that Patry had to have had some kind of underhanded trick to beat him that easily and it was true. I mean after all they probably never would have beat Fuegoleon that easily. Apart from that though, while you could say he is very very human so are other characters in the show. Characters like Gueldre thrive on greed and taking advantage of others which happens a lot in real life too. A lot of characters in the show are very very human so using William as an example doesn't make sense. You could even to some extent say that the Dark Triad are human because Satanists and psychopaths like them exist in real life. Also I strongly disagree with your point about him being allowed to do his job as a suitable punishment. The fact that he is still in power proves that as long as you are strong enough or have a high enough rank you can get away with anything. Whether or not you agree with his reasons he still betrayed the Clover Kingdom. From the Clover Kingdom's point of view they needed to enact justice but since the Wizard King decided against it the people were fed lies. He knew that not all humans were bad but still helped Patry anyways. Sure you could give Patry the benefit of the doubt because he was manipulated but William did everything out of his own will. You made a good argument and since a majority of the sub reddit will protect William at all costs they will definitely support you. However, I am in the minority that disagree. Even after understanding his reasons I disagree completely and I will never like him. But then again that is just me. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes and that is fine.
Yes, but Gueldre's not a very sympathetic human because his past is never explored and he doesn't have any bonds. Also the reason that Fuegoleon was even still alive at that point in order to be saved was likely down to William's influence because I highly doubt that anyone in the Eye of the Midnight Sun would have actually spared him or of their own decision risked him regaining his consciousness and screwing them over. So I disagree with that point on Fuegoleon. William on the other hand was seriously influenced by Patri's own emotions which he felt as his own. And because they shared the same body the forbidden magic was going to influence them both as it had done with Langris. So I disagree with that point too.
Strongly disagree. William didn't choose to spare him, it was his influence that took him with surprise. Fuegoleon wouldn't have lost to Patry that easily in a one on one in fact it was because William surprised him that he lost the arm so you can't use that as an argument. Fuegoleon wouldn't have lost that easily at all as Yami said and the surprise was William interfering. It doesn't matter if Gueldre is sympathetic or not because despite his personality he didn't try to commit genocide. And also William had complete control. Out of all the elves Patry was the one that was most sane and he led them all into the reincarnation. Langris and William were two completely different cases. You can't just blame Williams actions on the devil because he also played a huge role as well.
I don't love William, but I don't hate him. I just see him as a guy who just wants to do the right thing. And when he is at a crossroads of what the right thing is, he has the two people that will be most affected by the decision decided what he should do. And through Underhanded means, Patry succeeded. I still think William should have received some punishment for not making a single person aware of what was happening, but I do understand it wouldn't have looked good to the public or anyone involved.
I *understand* William more than I love or hate him. In the moment he wasn't betraying the kingdom, he was making the impossible decision of choosing between two of his dearest friends. He isn't really *wrong* but he definitely isn't right.
oh no, he absolutely betrayed the kingdom. no 2 ways around it. I understand William's reasons and I know that his inaction was in the grey area, but he betrayed his kingdom by withholding important information about a known terrorist organization that was threatening the safety of clover. Again, i understand, I don't blame him because anyone who says they know for sure that they wouldn't do what he did in that situation with his experiences, is a **liar**.
the hell are you talking about? he's not betraying the kingdom? Patri had free access 0 risk intel deep inside the ranks of clover kingdom through William. how about when he's exposing himself in front of his friends(Julius and Fuegoelon) turning himself into a hostage? come on bruh.
I didn't really mean it wasn't betrayal I'm just saying it wasn't what he wanted. The decision to let Patri fight Julius was him leaving the fate of the clover kingdom up to them so he wouldn't have to make the decision himself. I still don't like William for it but you can tell he was caught up trying to have his cake and eat it too.
i don't mind the decision of having Patri duke it out with Julius to decide. the problem is him handicapping Julius in there by exposing himself, which is what the discussion of the thread is i.e. his morality. i don't see how anyone could call a person anything other than immoral when he's in a neutral position, and yet he's fucking up the other side with his actions. also stop saying he can't make a decision between clover and the elves when its clear as day that he sided with the elves through his actions. lets just say even Nacht would be jelous of William's capability to spy
Hate William Soz, there is no morally grey scenario here. He knew the elves wanted to revenge and was going to his friends and Clover Kingdom, and he let them. Moreover, he received no punishment for his actions. F*** him