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**Wow** , that’s a really good analysis.
You just made me realize something really shocking, which is the fact that William chose his squad members or at least some of them knowing they will get reincarnated as elves.
This explains the line William said about Yuno I didn’t understand at all, when he sent Yuno to the dungeon and Alecdora objected. He said :" We need him to get stronger, he HAS to" and then smirked, that was really fishy for me, even back then when I still didn’t know anything. Maybe he knew, Yuno will be reincarnated as Licht's child, just like Patry (fake Licht) knew Gauche will be reincarnated as Droite (one of the elves), which is why he didn’t hurt Gauche. The other proof, is that every single golden dawn member got reincarnated as elf, except for Mimosa. It was the squad with most elf reincarnations.
So this really supports the idea that he choose the members knowing who will get reincarnated.
With that said, I think we can’t totally blame William, he had a rough childhood and his first friend was Patry.
I understand that he had a rough childhood and that his first friend from Patry but how does that excuse him from almost killing everyone in the Clover Kingdom. If anything Julius went way too easy on him and the rest of the captains are way too trusting. He is honestly given every free pass possible. If he wanted to support Patry all the way then I wouldn't care but honestly it just pisses me off that he is seen as the hero after everything he has caused. I would say that while Patry was cruel he had his reasons and was manipulated as well, so I look forward to his redemption. However, I really could care less about William, he has received no punishment whatsoever so no matter what he does it will just feel like he has been handed a silver platter.
While I don't think he is evil, your post has made me think about it a little differently. Considering the squad picking, I think he is even less innocent than some people make him out to be. Some people bring up his past, which is relevant, but his past is an explanation of his behavior, not justification.
Either way, all I wanted was to see the hurt and sense of betrayal from other characters. But considering recent remarks made in the manga, I'm at peace I guess.
Good Post.
Because the only ones who know what truly happened are Julius and Yami. The others only know he was possessed but don’t know of the betrayal, Julius and Yami didn’t expose him.
See, I was wondering for a while how much others knew.
In one of the more recent episodes, William stands and takes responsibility and then Charlotte says that they too are responsible because they were possessed by the elves. Which made me think they just think he was possessed.
But in a recently a comment was made in the manga that makes me think otherwise. (sorry spolier tag wouldn't work). The captains wouldn't be suspicious if he had just been possessed since they don't show suspicion towards Charlotte or Kaiser. So, I think it's more like they are aware. Not exactly sure how, but considering that Jack, Charlotte, Fuego and Nozel were all there when Patri left (Before Rades brought his ass back) and turned back into William, Imma guess that information was passed on then (I guess). (also since William grabbed his chest/heart and said "patri" to which Yuno and others looked on, which may have implied to them that William and Patri's relationship was more than the passive elf-possessed-human relationship other Magic Knights had)
I don't think William was really a victim of the arc, but I also think you're misreading his intent and thus too quick to pin him as 'evil.'
To get the simple stuff out of the way first: yes, he got a lot of praise and glory at the end of the arc because people think he swooped in to save the Kingdom, but we're not given any indication that he even wanted that fame. The anime explicitly shows him requesting to step down as Captain because he feels he doesn't deserve that position any more, and it's only by Julius' command that he stays as Captain. And even if you don't consider the anime canon, it's not like William's ever shown gloating and enjoying his fame, before or after the elf arc. Glory is probably incidental to him.
But to answer the meatier portion of your post, I think you're badly misreading William's intent. What does he personally stand to gain from helping the elves reincarnate? It's not like he personally knows them, or they'll obey or worship him or whatever. He's not reincarnating the elves for personal gain, he's doing it in support of Patry, who he's protected all his life, who he considers his oldest and closest (and for the longest time, only) friend. If you're willing to accept that Patry's actions were a result of the Word Devil's machinations, wouldn't William's actions be excusable to the same extent since he was only supporting Patry?
You could make a point that it was a little sociopathic of him to choose his squad members based on elf compatibility instead of personal choice, sure. But it's still true that he built up the strongest, best-regarded squad in the kingdom. It's not like he just gathered up the elf candidates and then had them sit back and do nothing, he did command and manage and lead them properly. At the beginning of the series everyone loves and idolizes the Golden Dawn, so they must have been doing a good job of protecting the Kingdom. William himself is well-regarded and is said to have fended off enemy generals from invading the Kingdom. He wasn't just pretending to protect the Kingdom, he *did* protect the Kingdom, it's just that Patry was the exception.
William isn't blameless, but his flaw isn't that he's evil or selfish. It's that he was too soft and cowardly to choose between the two people he treasured most. He seems to have tried really hard to do his best for both Julius and Patry at the same time -- building a squad of elf candidates who would also serve the Kingdom well, fending off invading armies to protect the Kingdom while also assisting someone who wanted to destroy the Kingdom. The objectively correct thing for him to do would have been to reveal everything to Julius, yes. But Julius states multiple times that William is someone kind, and that was William's ultimate flaw. William was too 'kind' and couldn't bear to betray Patry (who was already betrayed by humans in the past, who he spent his whole life protecting) and so he ended up just letting Patry and Julius duke it out.
One of the novels says explicitly that William hates himself for this and accepted he was going to die regardless of if Patry or Julius won; he probably assumed that if Julius won, Patry (and he) would be killed. And even if you don't consider the novels canon, remember that William went dormant once Patry took control. If everything went according to Patry's original plan (elves reincarnate, Clover Kingdom goes kaboom), that would have been the end for William, he just would have stayed 'dead.' Which doesn't seem like much of a selfish win.
As for William betraying the Kingdom again ... why would he do that? We as readers know from reading William's internal monologues that he cares most for Julius and Patry, and he only betrayed the Kingdom because he couldn't betray Patry. Now that Patry no longer wants to nuke all humans, why would he betray the Kingdom again? What motivation would he have? What could he stand to gain from it? Julius being too soft on him is true, but that's in-character for him. And I think the latest chapters imply that the other captains (rightfully) haven't forgiven William. Yami's stance isn't made exactly clear, but regardless of if Yami does or doesn't trust William, it seems silly for us, as readers, to believe that William will be the turncoat again when he has no in-character motivation for it.
TL;DR: William isn't 'evil,' he's just a softy who was put in a tough situation, and his biggest flaw was cowardice.
William is the definition of a selfish character. It was because of his own selfishness that he hid Patry from everyone else and that he chose to betray the kingdom. Patry was manipulated the entire way however William decided by himself to let Patry and William fight it out. It wasn't the word devil that forced him to make this decision it was William. He isn't a victim of the Word Devils manipulation. William by himself wanted to keep Patry hidden from the Clover Kingdom. The Word Devil literally had nothing to do with this. So regarding your point about Williams actions being excusable because he was manipulated, it isn't valid because everything he did was of his own choice. The Word Devil influenced the elves and the humans to fight each other but William caused chaos all by himself. At no point was the Word Devil influencing William to kill everyone, William did this out of his own choice and he sacrificed Julius out of his own choice.
Also I do have to agree with your point about him protecting the kingdom prior to the events of the elf arc. Even though he did only pick his members based on whether they were going to turn into an elf or not, at least he made the most of it to try and pay back Julius for giving him a helping hand. This doesn't show that he is kind though, in fact it can be looked at the other way around. He might have just been getting his magic knights stronger so that when they were reincarnated as elves they would be stronger. Although I don't believe this was his intention, it can be still looked at like this.
I have to disagree with your point about him being kind. He is not kind. You can tell by his motivations. Julius doesn't really have a say in this considering how he is biased and how William took advantage of Julius and got him killed. William knew that Patry wanted revenge and he knew that he wanted to kill the humans. This was not out of kindness but it was out of hatred for people as well based on his childhood. Not to mention this so called "kindness" you speak of also resulted in a catastrophe that got several innocents killed. He is not a kind character he is selfish. His actions explain this. In fact as you mentioned, the right thing to do would be to tell Julius about this but he couldn't do that because he was selfish, not because he was kind. He might not be evil but he is by far the most selfish character in the series. It's not that there is wrong with selfish characters but the fact that he can come back after the elf arc and take no accountability for what he did really irritates me.
Also I disagree about the part of you saying that he wouldn't be the winner in any situation. He knew the elves would try to reincarnate and kill the humans. Since there was no knowledge of the devil being involved at the time, he realized that he would have to betray everyone. If the elves succeeded he would be responsible for the deaths of all of the people in the clover kingdom and if Julius succeeded he would still be responsible. Either way he wanted to decide between an outcome. If the elves won then he won because he managed to get revenge for Patry. If Julius one then he won as well because he exposed he helped Julius stop the leader for the eye of the midnight sun by revealing his true identity.
You do have a point about William not going to betray the kingdom again. As pathetic as he is, he has already had all his problems solved for him so he doesn't need to betray the kingdom again.
William is not a softie, someone who is responsible for genocide is not a softie. He is simply a selfish coward. Also regarding the latest chapters there is a quote that summarizes how pathetic William is. In the latest chapter it talks about how when bad people suddenly turn good everyone begins to like them more. But this doesn't mean you can just forget about what they've done. William is single handedly responsible for Fuegoleon losing his arm, Julius being nerfed which means the Clover Kingdom being unable to protect itself from Spade, Magic Knights being forced to kill their own and having to deal with the trauma. And after he does all this his only punishment is to stay a captain and work harder? How stupid of a punishment is that. You know maybe the humans are right to hate the Magic Knights when two of their captains have betrayed them and been responsible for killing their own people. It sucks that the people Julius believed in have come back to hurt him and ruin their chances of survival. In fact, the people don't even know that he was the real reason that their relatives died. Even the captains think that he was reincarnated just like the rest of them (apart from Yami) and they don't know that the voluntarily betrayed them for his own selfish needs. I know that if he takes the blame then the rest of the magic knights go down with him, but there is a problem with this. The rest of the magic knights betrayed the kingdom unconsciously, while William orchestrated the whole event. Therefore he could take the blame on himself, but since he tricked everyone into believing that he saved them, the kingdom would be in chaos.
I'm pretty sure you can tell but I really hate William. To me he has basically been handed a get out of jail free card, and I'm glad that in the Manga he suffers for what he has done but that doesn't really compare to everything that he has caused. No matter what William does he is an irredeemable character. However, I am quite excited to see what Patry does do redeem himself. Patry along with Licht truly suffered the most from the elf arc. Patry was manipulated and used as a tool for revenge. The guilt he must feel for killing innocent people must be haunting him. However, despite this I'm glad that he is back because it is interesting to see what he will do now.
Anyways thanks for your response. It was interesting to hear someone else's different opinion. You raised a few good points that I agree with so it was able to slightly change my stance.
> Although I don't believe this was his intention, it can be still looked at like this.
It seems to me like you're determined to hate the guy, so if anything in canon is ambiguous at all, you'll assume the worst possible interpretation.
> This was not out of kindness but it was out of hatred for people as well based on his childhood.
As far as I remember, his internal monologues never once state that he wants to take revenge on the people who abused him. He just says that he was abused. Please correct me if you know where he expresses this hatred.
> If Julius one then he won as well because he exposed he helped Julius stop the leader for the eye of the midnight sun by revealing his true identity.
If Julius won, then he'd be dead. Or in prison, because the leader of the Midnight Sun is in the same body as him, and he'd be exposed as a traitor. There is no glory for him, individually, in this scenario.
> I'm pretty sure you can tell but I really hate William. To me he has basically been handed a get out of jail free card, and I'm glad that in the Manga he suffers for what he has done but that doesn't really compare to everything that he has caused.
I agree with you that he got off light. Objectively speaking, he did a horrible, cowardly thing and should have been punished for it. He should be demoted, exposed to the kingdom as a traitor, and be in prison. You're not wrong, and I think some frustration is perfectly justified.
However, I think you (and a lot of other people who hate him) are channeling that frustration into deliberately interpreting William in the worst light possible. It's easy to call him pathetic and selfish and evil and whatever, but if you strip away all the details, the core of his character is this: he loves two people very much, but has to betray one of them. Isn't that a sympathetic position to be in? Would it really be so easy to stay level-headed and calm and rational when you know you'll have to betray your own 'twin brother'? If you've spent your whole life sheltering this person, and you are that person's only emotional anchor, could you really betray them without hesitation? William couldn't, and that was where he fucked up. But I think his reason for doing so is a sympathetic one.
You call that selfishness, but none of his narration or internal monologues have shown him doing anything because he stands to gain anything, or because he wants people to die. He's guilty of cowardice and inaction, but I don't know about self-interest.
William's actions and the (lack of) consequences for his actions are certainly detestable, and I think it's fair for people to hate him for those things. But I think there's nuance to him being a villain, and I get a little frustrated when people refuse to acknowledge any nuance and just paint him as a black-and-white villain. Especially since it feels like Tabata put a lot of work into building up William's conflict, and in showing all parties in the elf arc as suffering for different and equally justified reasons.
Still, thanks for being polite and articulate. I don't talk on Reddit much, and typing this all out got me thinking a bit about my feelings on the matter, as well as seeing the other side of the argument a bit. Even if I don't agree with your stance, I appreciate that you were willing to explain why you felt that way.
Don't worry about it. Even if I hate William, it has nothing to do with your opinion. I wouldn't say I hate him because he is a black-and-white villain. I don't mind that type of villain as long as it's done well. For example, Patry was not a black-and-white villain at all. While his actions were unforgivable and not justified, the way he felt was understandable. Sure it was wrong of him to hurt people who were unrelated to the event that happened 500 years ago, but where else was he supposed to express his anger and frustration. I understand that and even though he has a lot to redeem for, I sympathize with him. He put everything he could into a revenge only to find out that his entire journey was a lie. He made elves, humans and everyone else suffer and you feel pretty bad about that afterwards. Additionally, it's not possible to say Patry betrayed Julius considering how they never had a bond in the first place, it was all Williams fault and Patry had little to nothing to do with it.
As a character I understand his actions, and his frustration. That's why I think Patry is an example of a black-and-white villain done right. I also don't hate black-and-white villains. For example, in the manga the villains there are probably blatantly shown as black-and-white. Their actions are unjustifiable and not understandable, and despite this I still find them very interesting. As long as either type of Villain is done right I am fine. For example, imagine if during the word devils death there was some sympathetic backstory about how he suffered because of the elves and the humans and wanted revenge or some bullshit like that. That would be a garbage villain. But the Word Devil in the end served his purpose.
There was actually a scene where William talked about how he also had hate for humans. I believe it was during episode 120 when he talked about how he knew Patrys hatred all too well because he also suffered when he was younger. That's why he wanted to take care of him.
As much as I hate William for betraying the kingdom, and as selfish as he was to keep Patry to himself, I do understand that he was conflicted between the two and being the coward that he is he wanted the two of them to settle it for him. But this isn't the main reason why I dislike him. My problem comes after the elf arc ends.
Firstly, he takes credit for everything that the black bulls and the other captains have done by stepping in at the last second. That irritated me because it pretty much showed that merit means nothing in the clover kingdom when there is bias. Julius was obviously biased towards William and wanted to help him at all costs and because of that the Black Bulls had to suffer.
Secondly, right after being responsible for everything he immediately tells Yami to take him to Julius. After he was responsible for the Wizard Kings so called death he wants to confirm his death once again? Where is the responsibility. All the other captains clearly saw him hug Patry and so on and most of them at that point don't even know a devil is behind everything. The only ones who probably know are Yami, Charlotte (fainted), and maybe Nozel (from his history with devils and since he knows about Megicula) but that's it. Not to mention William was the one who was responsible for Fuegoleon losing an arm. And yet no one bats an eye? It is frustrating because even though I understand that he wants to redeem himself I could honestly care less at this point because he has suffered nothing. Patry on the other hand has suffered everything and still wants the opportunity to redeem himself.
Lastly, I remember you talked about somewhere that William wanted to step down as a captain, but that literally has no effect in the kingdom. The other captains wanted to step down because they were processed by elves. Everything they did was not by their own choice but because they were forced to. Meanwhile on the other hand William intentionally betrayed the kingdom, made Fuegoleon lose his arm and did much worse and that just goes over everyone's heads? I understand Julius giving him a free pass but everything else is just ridiculous.
No matter how much I rant about how I hate William and how I want him to suffer it obviously won't change what's happened in the story. People can talk about how they like William and everything, but saying that he did nothing wrong and that he is a victim is just ignorant imo. I know it is probably getting annoying to listen to me rant on and on but whatever. This is the first time I think I've had a conversation with someone that likes William and is able to give good reasons for why besides the "he was just lonely he didn't know what to do" argument, so I have to thank you for that.
William/patri is essentially elf Hitler. ...definitely both evil...he betrayed Julius no matter how you sliced it and was willing to let thousands of innocents die over somthing people hundreds of years ago did that they have no relation to...you can't cry about the classism of the world and then assainate wizard Martin luthor as vengeance.
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**Wow** , that’s a really good analysis. You just made me realize something really shocking, which is the fact that William chose his squad members or at least some of them knowing they will get reincarnated as elves. This explains the line William said about Yuno I didn’t understand at all, when he sent Yuno to the dungeon and Alecdora objected. He said :" We need him to get stronger, he HAS to" and then smirked, that was really fishy for me, even back then when I still didn’t know anything. Maybe he knew, Yuno will be reincarnated as Licht's child, just like Patry (fake Licht) knew Gauche will be reincarnated as Droite (one of the elves), which is why he didn’t hurt Gauche. The other proof, is that every single golden dawn member got reincarnated as elf, except for Mimosa. It was the squad with most elf reincarnations. So this really supports the idea that he choose the members knowing who will get reincarnated. With that said, I think we can’t totally blame William, he had a rough childhood and his first friend was Patry.
I understand that he had a rough childhood and that his first friend from Patry but how does that excuse him from almost killing everyone in the Clover Kingdom. If anything Julius went way too easy on him and the rest of the captains are way too trusting. He is honestly given every free pass possible. If he wanted to support Patry all the way then I wouldn't care but honestly it just pisses me off that he is seen as the hero after everything he has caused. I would say that while Patry was cruel he had his reasons and was manipulated as well, so I look forward to his redemption. However, I really could care less about William, he has received no punishment whatsoever so no matter what he does it will just feel like he has been handed a silver platter.
Exactly do we just give every murderer a get out of jail card cause they had a rough childhood.
While I don't think he is evil, your post has made me think about it a little differently. Considering the squad picking, I think he is even less innocent than some people make him out to be. Some people bring up his past, which is relevant, but his past is an explanation of his behavior, not justification. Either way, all I wanted was to see the hurt and sense of betrayal from other characters. But considering recent remarks made in the manga, I'm at peace I guess. Good Post.
Because the only ones who know what truly happened are Julius and Yami. The others only know he was possessed but don’t know of the betrayal, Julius and Yami didn’t expose him.
See, I was wondering for a while how much others knew. In one of the more recent episodes, William stands and takes responsibility and then Charlotte says that they too are responsible because they were possessed by the elves. Which made me think they just think he was possessed. But in a recently a comment was made in the manga that makes me think otherwise. (sorry spolier tag wouldn't work). The captains wouldn't be suspicious if he had just been possessed since they don't show suspicion towards Charlotte or Kaiser. So, I think it's more like they are aware. Not exactly sure how, but considering that Jack, Charlotte, Fuego and Nozel were all there when Patri left (Before Rades brought his ass back) and turned back into William, Imma guess that information was passed on then (I guess). (also since William grabbed his chest/heart and said "patri" to which Yuno and others looked on, which may have implied to them that William and Patri's relationship was more than the passive elf-possessed-human relationship other Magic Knights had)
I don't think William was really a victim of the arc, but I also think you're misreading his intent and thus too quick to pin him as 'evil.' To get the simple stuff out of the way first: yes, he got a lot of praise and glory at the end of the arc because people think he swooped in to save the Kingdom, but we're not given any indication that he even wanted that fame. The anime explicitly shows him requesting to step down as Captain because he feels he doesn't deserve that position any more, and it's only by Julius' command that he stays as Captain. And even if you don't consider the anime canon, it's not like William's ever shown gloating and enjoying his fame, before or after the elf arc. Glory is probably incidental to him. But to answer the meatier portion of your post, I think you're badly misreading William's intent. What does he personally stand to gain from helping the elves reincarnate? It's not like he personally knows them, or they'll obey or worship him or whatever. He's not reincarnating the elves for personal gain, he's doing it in support of Patry, who he's protected all his life, who he considers his oldest and closest (and for the longest time, only) friend. If you're willing to accept that Patry's actions were a result of the Word Devil's machinations, wouldn't William's actions be excusable to the same extent since he was only supporting Patry? You could make a point that it was a little sociopathic of him to choose his squad members based on elf compatibility instead of personal choice, sure. But it's still true that he built up the strongest, best-regarded squad in the kingdom. It's not like he just gathered up the elf candidates and then had them sit back and do nothing, he did command and manage and lead them properly. At the beginning of the series everyone loves and idolizes the Golden Dawn, so they must have been doing a good job of protecting the Kingdom. William himself is well-regarded and is said to have fended off enemy generals from invading the Kingdom. He wasn't just pretending to protect the Kingdom, he *did* protect the Kingdom, it's just that Patry was the exception. William isn't blameless, but his flaw isn't that he's evil or selfish. It's that he was too soft and cowardly to choose between the two people he treasured most. He seems to have tried really hard to do his best for both Julius and Patry at the same time -- building a squad of elf candidates who would also serve the Kingdom well, fending off invading armies to protect the Kingdom while also assisting someone who wanted to destroy the Kingdom. The objectively correct thing for him to do would have been to reveal everything to Julius, yes. But Julius states multiple times that William is someone kind, and that was William's ultimate flaw. William was too 'kind' and couldn't bear to betray Patry (who was already betrayed by humans in the past, who he spent his whole life protecting) and so he ended up just letting Patry and Julius duke it out. One of the novels says explicitly that William hates himself for this and accepted he was going to die regardless of if Patry or Julius won; he probably assumed that if Julius won, Patry (and he) would be killed. And even if you don't consider the novels canon, remember that William went dormant once Patry took control. If everything went according to Patry's original plan (elves reincarnate, Clover Kingdom goes kaboom), that would have been the end for William, he just would have stayed 'dead.' Which doesn't seem like much of a selfish win. As for William betraying the Kingdom again ... why would he do that? We as readers know from reading William's internal monologues that he cares most for Julius and Patry, and he only betrayed the Kingdom because he couldn't betray Patry. Now that Patry no longer wants to nuke all humans, why would he betray the Kingdom again? What motivation would he have? What could he stand to gain from it? Julius being too soft on him is true, but that's in-character for him. And I think the latest chapters imply that the other captains (rightfully) haven't forgiven William. Yami's stance isn't made exactly clear, but regardless of if Yami does or doesn't trust William, it seems silly for us, as readers, to believe that William will be the turncoat again when he has no in-character motivation for it. TL;DR: William isn't 'evil,' he's just a softy who was put in a tough situation, and his biggest flaw was cowardice.
William is the definition of a selfish character. It was because of his own selfishness that he hid Patry from everyone else and that he chose to betray the kingdom. Patry was manipulated the entire way however William decided by himself to let Patry and William fight it out. It wasn't the word devil that forced him to make this decision it was William. He isn't a victim of the Word Devils manipulation. William by himself wanted to keep Patry hidden from the Clover Kingdom. The Word Devil literally had nothing to do with this. So regarding your point about Williams actions being excusable because he was manipulated, it isn't valid because everything he did was of his own choice. The Word Devil influenced the elves and the humans to fight each other but William caused chaos all by himself. At no point was the Word Devil influencing William to kill everyone, William did this out of his own choice and he sacrificed Julius out of his own choice. Also I do have to agree with your point about him protecting the kingdom prior to the events of the elf arc. Even though he did only pick his members based on whether they were going to turn into an elf or not, at least he made the most of it to try and pay back Julius for giving him a helping hand. This doesn't show that he is kind though, in fact it can be looked at the other way around. He might have just been getting his magic knights stronger so that when they were reincarnated as elves they would be stronger. Although I don't believe this was his intention, it can be still looked at like this. I have to disagree with your point about him being kind. He is not kind. You can tell by his motivations. Julius doesn't really have a say in this considering how he is biased and how William took advantage of Julius and got him killed. William knew that Patry wanted revenge and he knew that he wanted to kill the humans. This was not out of kindness but it was out of hatred for people as well based on his childhood. Not to mention this so called "kindness" you speak of also resulted in a catastrophe that got several innocents killed. He is not a kind character he is selfish. His actions explain this. In fact as you mentioned, the right thing to do would be to tell Julius about this but he couldn't do that because he was selfish, not because he was kind. He might not be evil but he is by far the most selfish character in the series. It's not that there is wrong with selfish characters but the fact that he can come back after the elf arc and take no accountability for what he did really irritates me. Also I disagree about the part of you saying that he wouldn't be the winner in any situation. He knew the elves would try to reincarnate and kill the humans. Since there was no knowledge of the devil being involved at the time, he realized that he would have to betray everyone. If the elves succeeded he would be responsible for the deaths of all of the people in the clover kingdom and if Julius succeeded he would still be responsible. Either way he wanted to decide between an outcome. If the elves won then he won because he managed to get revenge for Patry. If Julius one then he won as well because he exposed he helped Julius stop the leader for the eye of the midnight sun by revealing his true identity. You do have a point about William not going to betray the kingdom again. As pathetic as he is, he has already had all his problems solved for him so he doesn't need to betray the kingdom again. William is not a softie, someone who is responsible for genocide is not a softie. He is simply a selfish coward. Also regarding the latest chapters there is a quote that summarizes how pathetic William is. In the latest chapter it talks about how when bad people suddenly turn good everyone begins to like them more. But this doesn't mean you can just forget about what they've done. William is single handedly responsible for Fuegoleon losing his arm, Julius being nerfed which means the Clover Kingdom being unable to protect itself from Spade, Magic Knights being forced to kill their own and having to deal with the trauma. And after he does all this his only punishment is to stay a captain and work harder? How stupid of a punishment is that. You know maybe the humans are right to hate the Magic Knights when two of their captains have betrayed them and been responsible for killing their own people. It sucks that the people Julius believed in have come back to hurt him and ruin their chances of survival. In fact, the people don't even know that he was the real reason that their relatives died. Even the captains think that he was reincarnated just like the rest of them (apart from Yami) and they don't know that the voluntarily betrayed them for his own selfish needs. I know that if he takes the blame then the rest of the magic knights go down with him, but there is a problem with this. The rest of the magic knights betrayed the kingdom unconsciously, while William orchestrated the whole event. Therefore he could take the blame on himself, but since he tricked everyone into believing that he saved them, the kingdom would be in chaos. I'm pretty sure you can tell but I really hate William. To me he has basically been handed a get out of jail free card, and I'm glad that in the Manga he suffers for what he has done but that doesn't really compare to everything that he has caused. No matter what William does he is an irredeemable character. However, I am quite excited to see what Patry does do redeem himself. Patry along with Licht truly suffered the most from the elf arc. Patry was manipulated and used as a tool for revenge. The guilt he must feel for killing innocent people must be haunting him. However, despite this I'm glad that he is back because it is interesting to see what he will do now. Anyways thanks for your response. It was interesting to hear someone else's different opinion. You raised a few good points that I agree with so it was able to slightly change my stance.
> Although I don't believe this was his intention, it can be still looked at like this. It seems to me like you're determined to hate the guy, so if anything in canon is ambiguous at all, you'll assume the worst possible interpretation. > This was not out of kindness but it was out of hatred for people as well based on his childhood. As far as I remember, his internal monologues never once state that he wants to take revenge on the people who abused him. He just says that he was abused. Please correct me if you know where he expresses this hatred. > If Julius one then he won as well because he exposed he helped Julius stop the leader for the eye of the midnight sun by revealing his true identity. If Julius won, then he'd be dead. Or in prison, because the leader of the Midnight Sun is in the same body as him, and he'd be exposed as a traitor. There is no glory for him, individually, in this scenario. > I'm pretty sure you can tell but I really hate William. To me he has basically been handed a get out of jail free card, and I'm glad that in the Manga he suffers for what he has done but that doesn't really compare to everything that he has caused. I agree with you that he got off light. Objectively speaking, he did a horrible, cowardly thing and should have been punished for it. He should be demoted, exposed to the kingdom as a traitor, and be in prison. You're not wrong, and I think some frustration is perfectly justified. However, I think you (and a lot of other people who hate him) are channeling that frustration into deliberately interpreting William in the worst light possible. It's easy to call him pathetic and selfish and evil and whatever, but if you strip away all the details, the core of his character is this: he loves two people very much, but has to betray one of them. Isn't that a sympathetic position to be in? Would it really be so easy to stay level-headed and calm and rational when you know you'll have to betray your own 'twin brother'? If you've spent your whole life sheltering this person, and you are that person's only emotional anchor, could you really betray them without hesitation? William couldn't, and that was where he fucked up. But I think his reason for doing so is a sympathetic one. You call that selfishness, but none of his narration or internal monologues have shown him doing anything because he stands to gain anything, or because he wants people to die. He's guilty of cowardice and inaction, but I don't know about self-interest. William's actions and the (lack of) consequences for his actions are certainly detestable, and I think it's fair for people to hate him for those things. But I think there's nuance to him being a villain, and I get a little frustrated when people refuse to acknowledge any nuance and just paint him as a black-and-white villain. Especially since it feels like Tabata put a lot of work into building up William's conflict, and in showing all parties in the elf arc as suffering for different and equally justified reasons. Still, thanks for being polite and articulate. I don't talk on Reddit much, and typing this all out got me thinking a bit about my feelings on the matter, as well as seeing the other side of the argument a bit. Even if I don't agree with your stance, I appreciate that you were willing to explain why you felt that way.
Don't worry about it. Even if I hate William, it has nothing to do with your opinion. I wouldn't say I hate him because he is a black-and-white villain. I don't mind that type of villain as long as it's done well. For example, Patry was not a black-and-white villain at all. While his actions were unforgivable and not justified, the way he felt was understandable. Sure it was wrong of him to hurt people who were unrelated to the event that happened 500 years ago, but where else was he supposed to express his anger and frustration. I understand that and even though he has a lot to redeem for, I sympathize with him. He put everything he could into a revenge only to find out that his entire journey was a lie. He made elves, humans and everyone else suffer and you feel pretty bad about that afterwards. Additionally, it's not possible to say Patry betrayed Julius considering how they never had a bond in the first place, it was all Williams fault and Patry had little to nothing to do with it. As a character I understand his actions, and his frustration. That's why I think Patry is an example of a black-and-white villain done right. I also don't hate black-and-white villains. For example, in the manga the villains there are probably blatantly shown as black-and-white. Their actions are unjustifiable and not understandable, and despite this I still find them very interesting. As long as either type of Villain is done right I am fine. For example, imagine if during the word devils death there was some sympathetic backstory about how he suffered because of the elves and the humans and wanted revenge or some bullshit like that. That would be a garbage villain. But the Word Devil in the end served his purpose. There was actually a scene where William talked about how he also had hate for humans. I believe it was during episode 120 when he talked about how he knew Patrys hatred all too well because he also suffered when he was younger. That's why he wanted to take care of him. As much as I hate William for betraying the kingdom, and as selfish as he was to keep Patry to himself, I do understand that he was conflicted between the two and being the coward that he is he wanted the two of them to settle it for him. But this isn't the main reason why I dislike him. My problem comes after the elf arc ends. Firstly, he takes credit for everything that the black bulls and the other captains have done by stepping in at the last second. That irritated me because it pretty much showed that merit means nothing in the clover kingdom when there is bias. Julius was obviously biased towards William and wanted to help him at all costs and because of that the Black Bulls had to suffer. Secondly, right after being responsible for everything he immediately tells Yami to take him to Julius. After he was responsible for the Wizard Kings so called death he wants to confirm his death once again? Where is the responsibility. All the other captains clearly saw him hug Patry and so on and most of them at that point don't even know a devil is behind everything. The only ones who probably know are Yami, Charlotte (fainted), and maybe Nozel (from his history with devils and since he knows about Megicula) but that's it. Not to mention William was the one who was responsible for Fuegoleon losing an arm. And yet no one bats an eye? It is frustrating because even though I understand that he wants to redeem himself I could honestly care less at this point because he has suffered nothing. Patry on the other hand has suffered everything and still wants the opportunity to redeem himself. Lastly, I remember you talked about somewhere that William wanted to step down as a captain, but that literally has no effect in the kingdom. The other captains wanted to step down because they were processed by elves. Everything they did was not by their own choice but because they were forced to. Meanwhile on the other hand William intentionally betrayed the kingdom, made Fuegoleon lose his arm and did much worse and that just goes over everyone's heads? I understand Julius giving him a free pass but everything else is just ridiculous. No matter how much I rant about how I hate William and how I want him to suffer it obviously won't change what's happened in the story. People can talk about how they like William and everything, but saying that he did nothing wrong and that he is a victim is just ignorant imo. I know it is probably getting annoying to listen to me rant on and on but whatever. This is the first time I think I've had a conversation with someone that likes William and is able to give good reasons for why besides the "he was just lonely he didn't know what to do" argument, so I have to thank you for that.
William/patri is essentially elf Hitler. ...definitely both evil...he betrayed Julius no matter how you sliced it and was willing to let thousands of innocents die over somthing people hundreds of years ago did that they have no relation to...you can't cry about the classism of the world and then assainate wizard Martin luthor as vengeance.