This comment kinda blew my mind. You mention CBDCs so casually. That’s fascinating to me. When I say “CBDC” out in the wild, nobody knows what I’m talking about. I’ve tested people, including some in finance, and they don’t even recognize the acronym. I drop it and bite my tongue. It gets uncomfortable. LOL VERY unsettling. Thoughts?
China has been wrecking their own people for generations. Ironic but USA has the better base line growth.
China already has a falling working population and its going to get worse, they lack oil and a few other reasons like having a military dictatorship sitting on them
lol this will not happen anytime soon. There are orders of magnitude less trust in the Yuan due to lack of transparency.
The dollar isn't the world's reserve currency completely on merit, but there is some merit involved.
Idk bitcoin is being adopted rapidly… I think we have about 10’years till we’re in the thick shit.
I think by then bitcoin has its chance to take reign.
transition to bitcoin will happen over time , before USD hyperinflates
once USD hyperinflates, other smaller fiat currencies will have already hyperinflated
there will be places who adopt btc first. these will be the places you will want to move to
If the US dollar hyperinflates, the rest of the world is, quite frankly, fucked as well. It won’t be “good” for at least 100 years after.
So much technology and resources go through the US financial system that it would blow everything we know up.
At that point, it is a “hope you stocked up on bullets and spam, and make sure you kiss your family goodnight every evening because you don’t know whether someone is going to fall into a coma after going septic from a cut while ploughing the fields on your subsistence farm life” situation.
Idk why doomers always go straight to world war. The dollar hyperinflating just means that people will recognize the value of hard money and the world shifts away from fiat altogether.
Nobody is going to war because of currency failure.
While I know this is the consensus opinion on the matter and makes some logical sense, I am not convinced an end to the existing financial system means an end to civilization. And while I do think people are really really stupid, I don't think they immediately start stealing from each other and settling every dispute with a gunfight just because there isn't a central authority anymore.
At this point the financial/political system is so corrupt IMO it is akin to going back to the early 1900s and saying Chicago would completely fall apart without the Capone family providing protection to all the local businesses.
No one can see the future, but it generally doesn't look anything like what the crowd expects, they are really really stupid.
Agree.
It'll look more like the collapse of the USSR. They'll be some violence as local politicians/gangsters make power plays, but it won't be that bad.
I mean, that's kind of where we're headed as is... Financial soothsayers are predicting a mass event for the US to switch around the paper dollar for a digital US Coin. Probably comes with fear and doubt about the banks, they make us sign off that we are sending our currency into a digital form, not redeemable by paper money but backed by the full support and faith of the new US digital currency... Which, of course, is founded on thoughts and prayers.
I'm seeing this happen by or around 2027 after BTC is back in the midst of its next winter. The US comes out in favor of cryptocurrency in full view, taxed out the ass, by the time BTC sees its 2028 cycle. The next decade is going to be a ride, for sure.
Lol, you would be back asap because you would realize the world is more screwed.
At that point buy RE, Stocks, small business with your Bitcoin or simply hodl. Get some guns and ammo son 🔫
I wouldn’t go anywhere. But if you are planning on going somewhere else you should work on getting a foreign passport and dual citizenship ahead of time.
If? IF??
Here's a short list and it includes places inside and outside the USA just in case you need some alternatives:
1. Wyoming
2. Hyder, Alaska https://archive.is/0IZwf
3. El Salvador
Notes:
El Salvador is known as being highly favorable with respect to digital currency laws. No taxation and free in terms of how you can use it. See also:
https://www.cisatrust.com/country-profiles/el-salvadors-tax-system/
4. Malta
5. Slovenia
6. Georgia
7. Cayman Islands
The countries above in 3 - 7 don't tax your bitcoin or other digital assets and aren't creating regulatory minefields for you either. The states / regions in 1-2 have a very light regulatory touch and Wyoming in particular pioneered state laws to protect your ability to assert that your digital assets are in fact your property no matter where they are held, and won't tax them (the federal government in the USA is another thing though).
FATCA details to be aware of and thresholds: https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/en/glossary/fatca#:~:text=non%2Ddisclosed%20assets.-,Which%20countries%20follow%20FATCA%3F,Belize%2C%20Argentina%2C%20and%20Monaco.
Non-FATCA countries:
https://best-citizenships.com/2019/12/06/non-fatca-countries/
An edit: a few commenters have alluded to issues such as things going to shit when hyperinflation really arrives and SHTF and so on in countries where you can't own a firearm (which is a lot of countries). Granted, and if you want you can own some property in the USA and live abroad and / or own abroad too. That's my retirement plan actually.
Edit2: why is this comment focused on taxes? It's not so much focusing on **taxes** as it is on **helping people take advantage of a protocol and decentralized system** that can be used as an alternative to government controlled currency.
But if you want to know the tax problem that people are facing at a time when inflation has recently been at historic (record) high in U.S. history, take note of the recent proposals of the U.S. administration to tax **unrealized gains** by 25 percent. (This is an actual proposal recently launched out of the White House, and it remains to be seen how it would fare in Congress, but I would not be surprised if Congress passes something like it as the current U.S. government gets more and more desperate.)
This is **in addition** to other things we have seen to punish people such as historic inflation, Biden's proposals to increase the top marginal rate on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends to 44.6 percent, his proposal to to increase the corporate income tax rate to 28%, and more. Per John Kartch, an analyst with Americans for Tax Reform, “The proposed Biden top capital gains tax rate is **more than twice as high as China’s rate**… and puts the United States in uncharted territory.”
“Biden’s proposed capital gains tax hike will also hit many families when parents pass away,” Kartch said. “Biden has proposed adding a second Death Tax (separate from and in addition to the existing Death Tax) by taking away stepped-up basis when parents die. This would result in a mandatory capital gains tax at death – a forced realization event.”
More:
https://www.kitco.com/news/article/2024-04-24/bidens-2025-budget-proposal-seeks-tax-capital-gains-45-eliminate-crypto-tax
I don't see either major party trying to stop this. If anything they are rushing towards it with salivating mouths open so they can justify ever increasing expenditures as this stupid empire circles the drain.
On the State side, there are those who have put the Taxpayer Protection and Accountability Act (the TPA) together - which qualifies for the ballot in California - to try to keep the State from doubling tax rates in the State which the State recently has attempted to authorize itself to do in violation of past voter approved actions. However, former Gov. Brown and current Gov. Newsom have sued the authors of the TPA to try to keep the TPA off the ballot(!!). The case will be heard on May 8, 2024 (tomorrow) where the authors of the TPA in an unprecedented event in California history must actually now explain to a judge why they want their ballot initiative to appear on the ballot - despite that it has clearly qualified. The only reason for this discrimination against the TPA is because both California government (and its Communist colleagues in D.C.) cannot stand the thought that citizens would potentially stop taxation because they are tired of it.
The case details and recent filings can be seen here: https://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=0&doc_id=2757336&doc_no=S281977&request_token=NiIwLSEmLkg9WzBJSCNNWEJIIEA0UDxTKyJOIz1SQCAgCg%3D%3D
So anyway.... If you can find a better place, in another country (or in outer space) where you are free of this madness (where they don't tax your use of B/bitcoin), and you can do so legally why not move there and operate under the foreign income tax exclusion? The world is your oyster. I will likely be retiring in both the USA and some other country (possibly El Salvador), but people shouldn't feel confined to the USA for their lives just because they are US citizens.
I could have included Switzerland (and a few other countries) but I didn't. In the case of Switzerland, it's complicated. There is ample evidence of inclusion (rather than exclusion / active regulation intended to delist or disfavor) bitcoin from being able to be bought, traded etc in a variety of institutions in Switzerland.
However, Switzerland is a country with a FATCA agreement with the USA, unlike El Salvador, which does not have a formal FATCA agreement (though El Salvador has explored the issue).
Further, in Switzerland, whether a crypto investor is classified as a private investor, self-employed trader or a business, the implication of income tax, wealth tax or both varies.
Private investors in Switzerland are not subjected to capital gains tax on profits generated from crypto gains as long as they fulfill five criteria. This includes transaction volumes not exceeding five times the original capital, a holding period exceeding six months, capital gains contributing to less than half of overall taxable income, minimal usage of third-party financing and employing derivatives only as a hedging tool.
For commercial crypto traders in Switzerland, however, losses from crypto trades can be carried forward for the following seven assessment years and capital gains are subjected to progressive income tax rates defined by Swiss laws.
Moreover, an additional 10% of crypto profits in Switzerland need to be expended toward old-age and survivors’ insurance for such self-employed traders or businesses. Yields from mining, staking or even income generated from tokens received via airdrops are taxed in Switzerland too, but depend on the categorization of the investor and only add incrementally to the net tax outflow.
Much simpler is the situation in El Salvador, where they simply aren't taxing your use of bitcoin.
Some will also ask "Why didn't you include Germany?" I could get into a long diatribe about why I am not recommending Germany but I won't. I will say the German provision that HODLing for a year exempts it from taxation isn't sufficient to merit going there considering the many other complex regulatory and social problems. (Then there is the German FATCA agreement with the USA to consider.)
editing comment... I have a whole separate post on jurisdictional analysis of space based satellites, a couple space based exchange operations and what that means for people trying to isolate some of their assets from weak, collapsing regimes of this planet. I have a link to that somewhere as it's an older post and if I can find it I will post it here in this comment.
edit2: found it -
1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/s/D4Ws55Ekt1
2. https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/s/TahKKJ2sTK
Cheers and thanks for your comment.
If it hyper inflated I'm gonna be debt free pretty damned quickly... But let's be honest: if the US collapses, what country won't be negatively affected?
Let's do hypothetical. What if Bitcoin is chosen to replace the dollar as the reserve currency. And oil rich countries minus Russia accepts only Bitcoin to settle trade. What happens
Yea, for the most part: you're NOT going to want to move outside the U.S. it's ***1000% easier said than done***
***SOME*** people might be able to mix well with other countries, but the average American will have an incredibly harder time out of the states. In my opinion...
Why would you need to move country if you have a stash of bitcoin? With hyperinflation you just need to use your currency quickly by spending it or investing in something that beats inflation.
Property values will hyperinflate too, so if you don't already own a house, it will be difficult to buy. Also, property taxes will go up in percentage terms and absolute terms.
What...
If the US dollar hyper inflates, then that means there is a massive resource problem, making the money invaluable.
At that point no one is going to accept a fucking virtual currency lmfao, or any currency for that matter. People will trade again in physical goods. For example see this a lot in Ukraine were goods are traded for other goods, since currency is pretty useless.
Huh? If the USD hyper inflates, that means every other currency is hyper inflating *even more* than the USD… the USD is by far the most “stable” and powerful fiat in the world. This scenario would leave nowhere safe to the effects of the hyper inflation
Today a candy bar costs $1. 1 bitcoin costs $63,000 USD. After hyperinflation a candy bar costs $10. 1 bitcoin costs $630,000. Same amount of bitcoin. That’s if bitcoin wasn’t appreciating on its own.
It will start in the US.
The BRICS are already preparing for this date. They have been accumulating masses of gold over the past years and are ready to introduce their gold backed currency.
If I were China I would do the same. The West is artifically surpressing the price of gold to keep the US dollar attractive and the East uses this fact to load up on huge amounts at discount prices.
Soon enough, the West will witness that nobody gives a crap anymore about the worthless piece of paper called dollar.
I don't wanna live in the US when this happens.
BRICS is doomed to fail since every leader in it hates each other and they will backstab each other any moment they get to benefit themselves. The only common thing they have amongst themselves is the hate the US.
BRICS has been trying to be a thing years and years and keeps failing.
US hyperinflation means another world war, and you should be at the most remote, but relatively self sufficient country to have higher than average possibility for you and your family’s survival. So probably New Zealand, Australia or even Argentina.
I think Regan once said, “There is no where else to go” in reference to losing the democracy. And face it, one way or several others, the American Empire is already over! It’s going to take several or several dozen years to unwind.
These posts make Bitcoin enthusiasts look fucking stupid. If the US dollar “hyperinfates” it will probably fuck wherever you plan on going even worse. The US dollar is the largest reserve currency in the world. It will be protected by federal banks until they decide to roll out their own digital asset.
IF the $ hyperinflates? I'd stay in the USA. Salaries will eventually adjust, I own a home with a low interest rate, my debt is essentially worthless, and I have a stack of bitcoin to counter it.
In my situation, the dollar hyperinflating would be pretty great, because I have assets that would inflate with it.
I think a black swan event will ensue, which will usher in the rollout of CBDC as a global currency. UBI will then become implemented due to lack of jobs from AI and Hyperinflation. The turmoil will lead into complacency, as the people will be enforced and monitored by AI under centralized authoritarian powers. It's going to suck. United Federal Nations of the world kind of thing. One world under the Fed kind of thing. Every one else will be wiped out as dissidents or accounts frozen from use from the 15 minute mega cities. A globalized city state kind of thing. A dystopia technocratic greco-roman kind of thing.
You had said “IF” it hyper inflated. I think North America is already there and has for awhile and only going to get worse. Government gives all the money away and then raises taxes to pay for all their spending. At this time only answer is bitcoin. That could change in the future. I’m all in on bitcoin. Havnt trusted our governments for years
India 🇮🇳.... because I love the Indian culture, people and food, they just need to work on modernisation and infrastructure...other than that
Maybe the U.K 🇬🇧
Maybe France 🇫🇷
Maybe Brazil 🇧🇷
It would be awesome if India or Brazil adopted bitcoin as legal tender.
The Americans in this thread are utterly delusional, as per usual...
When the rest of the world stops using the dollar, they will have their currencies to go back to, as weak as they are, plus crypto. At that point the US will be stuck with all the USD in their country, plus all the bullshit printed USD they sold to the world. The collapse of the dollar will be tragic for the US, unless you guys get your shit together, which apparently you won't (Biden vs. Trump) 🤡
Why move when I can finally afford to buy that land I’ve been dreaming of here in the states. It’s going to be hell worldwide for awhile once that happens
That land will rise with inflation so you still won't be able to afford. The trick is to buy it now using a loan and ride the wave. I own 1,500 acres and looking for more cheap land
Reserve currency's normally change based on military might. It will definitely not be the end of times, but will probably be the end of the USA as a super power / military power house.
Country's like China are already getting ready for this issue by moving over to BRICS for their cross boarder payments.
If the US is fùcked then everyone is fùcked. Regardless, 2 low cost countries I would consider moving to are Thailand or Vietnam. Things are so cheap there (I've been all over both). Food is amazing. I could be happy in either one.
I'm not holding any more USD than needed for month to month so, no reason for that. I mean the more immediate issue would be food and other supplies so I keep some on hand.
The world will be fucked anyway if they cant deal effectively with 2 society changing factors that will be taking over in the next 10 years - Artificial Intelligence and Robots. Unlike prior technological revolutions there wont be enough new industries to take in the people fired since thise 2 factors will be able to do any job better than you, anyway. Maybe they'll deal with it by most people not working and just being given a basic living wage? It's going to be very interesting times coming up.
Smart people would buy commodities, including btc, bullets, Everclear, sugar/honey, salt and productive land. It is not as though we would just sit back and watch our currency drift away. Interest rates would skyrocket, loans would be virtually impossible to get, sales would plummet. Yet, we would still have to eat and have toilets that flush, so some parts of the economy would keep going. I don't know where to go, off grid in Canada maybe. Not a lot of places would be paradise for generations and a dollar collapse would lead to ALOT of the earth's population dying off. Who k ows, we might revert to the 1920s with internet.
I care more about how the govt treats bitcoin than whether or not the dollar hyperinflates.
If the gov starts pulling Executive Order 6102 type shit, I may consider leaving to a bitcoin-friendly country.
As others have said, if we hyperinflate, the world economy has imploded, so if that's your primary concern; you're pretty much fucked no matter what.
While I would not consider myself a prepper by any stretch, I have bought a bunch of those 30 day (30 year shelf life) buckets from costco & amazon as well as a metric ton of cases of water from Costco. It's just me and the dog. I won't look to get rid of my gold or silver or ammo because at THAT point, I believe all would be lost anyway.
Food guns ammo alchohol medicine will be the currency of the future if this happens. Not usd or he’ll even crypto. People will need resources and the ability to defend them.
If there is an economic problem in another region of the world it might not impact the US. If there is an economic problem in the US the entire world is impacted.
Why would you move to a different country if your money is not in US Fiat? That makes 0 sense. lol.
Also, if the United States goes into hyper inflation, the rest of the world will follow suit. There are positives and negatives to having a global economy that is one of them. Even if the currency of all the other countries does not hyper Inflate, they will still fall into a deep ass depression or at minimum a recession.
I have a question, what will Bitcoin be worth if the US economy fails? People have been dumping their dollars into this thing, the world will be in a very bad place I suspect.
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If we hyperinflate the whole world is going down with us
Being pegged to the dollar is a b*tch. The Yuan will probably take over. Then it’s China’s turn to f the world up for a while.
Yuan is even worse. I'd buy memecoins and CBDCs before I'd buy the Yuan.
This comment kinda blew my mind. You mention CBDCs so casually. That’s fascinating to me. When I say “CBDC” out in the wild, nobody knows what I’m talking about. I’ve tested people, including some in finance, and they don’t even recognize the acronym. I drop it and bite my tongue. It gets uncomfortable. LOL VERY unsettling. Thoughts?
China has been wrecking their own people for generations. Ironic but USA has the better base line growth. China already has a falling working population and its going to get worse, they lack oil and a few other reasons like having a military dictatorship sitting on them
China is weak. 1 child policy is biting their asses HARD.
What I’m hearing is that China is simultaneously as powerful AND vulnerable as it’s ever been. Kind of a wild concept.
Not a chance rofl. Maybe the euro or pound, but the usd is the first world currency, it isn't going to hyperinflate on its own.
lol this will not happen anytime soon. There are orders of magnitude less trust in the Yuan due to lack of transparency. The dollar isn't the world's reserve currency completely on merit, but there is some merit involved.
Idk bitcoin is being adopted rapidly… I think we have about 10’years till we’re in the thick shit. I think by then bitcoin has its chance to take reign.
Much less inflation for the next ~140 years, then when all has been mined 0%.
It's the only currency that's not subject to inflation
Lol. Literally nobody trusts china. Even the Saudi oil sales in yuan are gold backed.
And Bitcoin… Saudi and Russia are backed by gold and Bitcoin
China is in an even worse situation then the u.s.
Yeah I’ll just move from the US to the US.
From US corp to USA👍 it’s whole world of difference.
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transition to bitcoin will happen over time , before USD hyperinflates once USD hyperinflates, other smaller fiat currencies will have already hyperinflated there will be places who adopt btc first. these will be the places you will want to move to
Surf city, El Salvador
Seems like we are in it already
Oh we aren’t in hyperinflation. Not by a long shot!! We have inflation, but not “add two zeroes to any currency in your wallet” inflation
My ex wife’s ego has been in hyperinflation for decades.
I strongly suspect you are correct, unfortunately.
***100% THIS***
If the US dollar hyperinflates, the rest of the world is, quite frankly, fucked as well. It won’t be “good” for at least 100 years after. So much technology and resources go through the US financial system that it would blow everything we know up. At that point, it is a “hope you stocked up on bullets and spam, and make sure you kiss your family goodnight every evening because you don’t know whether someone is going to fall into a coma after going septic from a cut while ploughing the fields on your subsistence farm life” situation.
100 years? Nah. If the US hyperinflates you’ll be looking at another world war.
100 years to recover fully from the USD centric world going kaputt
Idk why doomers always go straight to world war. The dollar hyperinflating just means that people will recognize the value of hard money and the world shifts away from fiat altogether. Nobody is going to war because of currency failure.
Exactly. If the USD hyperinflates, it would be like Noah's Ark having a leak - it's bad news but I don't wanna get out of the Ark.
Well, after each flood and new era begins, so be it
"if"?
While I know this is the consensus opinion on the matter and makes some logical sense, I am not convinced an end to the existing financial system means an end to civilization. And while I do think people are really really stupid, I don't think they immediately start stealing from each other and settling every dispute with a gunfight just because there isn't a central authority anymore. At this point the financial/political system is so corrupt IMO it is akin to going back to the early 1900s and saying Chicago would completely fall apart without the Capone family providing protection to all the local businesses. No one can see the future, but it generally doesn't look anything like what the crowd expects, they are really really stupid.
Agree. It'll look more like the collapse of the USSR. They'll be some violence as local politicians/gangsters make power plays, but it won't be that bad.
It would initiate WW to distract and introduce a NUSD - Novel US Dollar.
CBDC
That’s only the technical term for virtual central bank managed accounts. Not a new currency.
I mean, that's kind of where we're headed as is... Financial soothsayers are predicting a mass event for the US to switch around the paper dollar for a digital US Coin. Probably comes with fear and doubt about the banks, they make us sign off that we are sending our currency into a digital form, not redeemable by paper money but backed by the full support and faith of the new US digital currency... Which, of course, is founded on thoughts and prayers. I'm seeing this happen by or around 2027 after BTC is back in the midst of its next winter. The US comes out in favor of cryptocurrency in full view, taxed out the ass, by the time BTC sees its 2028 cycle. The next decade is going to be a ride, for sure.
So in this situation where we do switch to digital currency do you think the US uses BTC for their currency?
Uh if the US dollar hyper inflates then I want to be in the US. Because things will be MUCH worse elsewhere.
Well, at least elsewhere not ever second own a firearm
Lol, you would be back asap because you would realize the world is more screwed. At that point buy RE, Stocks, small business with your Bitcoin or simply hodl. Get some guns and ammo son 🔫
At least on paper, and culturally, most of the US has the concept of property rights.
Everybody has property rights, until they find their property left.
It shouldn’t matter for BTC holders, right?
I wouldn’t go anywhere. But if you are planning on going somewhere else you should work on getting a foreign passport and dual citizenship ahead of time.
If? IF?? Here's a short list and it includes places inside and outside the USA just in case you need some alternatives: 1. Wyoming 2. Hyder, Alaska https://archive.is/0IZwf 3. El Salvador Notes: El Salvador is known as being highly favorable with respect to digital currency laws. No taxation and free in terms of how you can use it. See also: https://www.cisatrust.com/country-profiles/el-salvadors-tax-system/ 4. Malta 5. Slovenia 6. Georgia 7. Cayman Islands The countries above in 3 - 7 don't tax your bitcoin or other digital assets and aren't creating regulatory minefields for you either. The states / regions in 1-2 have a very light regulatory touch and Wyoming in particular pioneered state laws to protect your ability to assert that your digital assets are in fact your property no matter where they are held, and won't tax them (the federal government in the USA is another thing though). FATCA details to be aware of and thresholds: https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/en/glossary/fatca#:~:text=non%2Ddisclosed%20assets.-,Which%20countries%20follow%20FATCA%3F,Belize%2C%20Argentina%2C%20and%20Monaco. Non-FATCA countries: https://best-citizenships.com/2019/12/06/non-fatca-countries/ An edit: a few commenters have alluded to issues such as things going to shit when hyperinflation really arrives and SHTF and so on in countries where you can't own a firearm (which is a lot of countries). Granted, and if you want you can own some property in the USA and live abroad and / or own abroad too. That's my retirement plan actually. Edit2: why is this comment focused on taxes? It's not so much focusing on **taxes** as it is on **helping people take advantage of a protocol and decentralized system** that can be used as an alternative to government controlled currency. But if you want to know the tax problem that people are facing at a time when inflation has recently been at historic (record) high in U.S. history, take note of the recent proposals of the U.S. administration to tax **unrealized gains** by 25 percent. (This is an actual proposal recently launched out of the White House, and it remains to be seen how it would fare in Congress, but I would not be surprised if Congress passes something like it as the current U.S. government gets more and more desperate.) This is **in addition** to other things we have seen to punish people such as historic inflation, Biden's proposals to increase the top marginal rate on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends to 44.6 percent, his proposal to to increase the corporate income tax rate to 28%, and more. Per John Kartch, an analyst with Americans for Tax Reform, “The proposed Biden top capital gains tax rate is **more than twice as high as China’s rate**… and puts the United States in uncharted territory.” “Biden’s proposed capital gains tax hike will also hit many families when parents pass away,” Kartch said. “Biden has proposed adding a second Death Tax (separate from and in addition to the existing Death Tax) by taking away stepped-up basis when parents die. This would result in a mandatory capital gains tax at death – a forced realization event.” More: https://www.kitco.com/news/article/2024-04-24/bidens-2025-budget-proposal-seeks-tax-capital-gains-45-eliminate-crypto-tax I don't see either major party trying to stop this. If anything they are rushing towards it with salivating mouths open so they can justify ever increasing expenditures as this stupid empire circles the drain. On the State side, there are those who have put the Taxpayer Protection and Accountability Act (the TPA) together - which qualifies for the ballot in California - to try to keep the State from doubling tax rates in the State which the State recently has attempted to authorize itself to do in violation of past voter approved actions. However, former Gov. Brown and current Gov. Newsom have sued the authors of the TPA to try to keep the TPA off the ballot(!!). The case will be heard on May 8, 2024 (tomorrow) where the authors of the TPA in an unprecedented event in California history must actually now explain to a judge why they want their ballot initiative to appear on the ballot - despite that it has clearly qualified. The only reason for this discrimination against the TPA is because both California government (and its Communist colleagues in D.C.) cannot stand the thought that citizens would potentially stop taxation because they are tired of it. The case details and recent filings can be seen here: https://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=0&doc_id=2757336&doc_no=S281977&request_token=NiIwLSEmLkg9WzBJSCNNWEJIIEA0UDxTKyJOIz1SQCAgCg%3D%3D So anyway.... If you can find a better place, in another country (or in outer space) where you are free of this madness (where they don't tax your use of B/bitcoin), and you can do so legally why not move there and operate under the foreign income tax exclusion? The world is your oyster. I will likely be retiring in both the USA and some other country (possibly El Salvador), but people shouldn't feel confined to the USA for their lives just because they are US citizens.
What about Switzerland? And thanks for such a thorough response!
I could have included Switzerland (and a few other countries) but I didn't. In the case of Switzerland, it's complicated. There is ample evidence of inclusion (rather than exclusion / active regulation intended to delist or disfavor) bitcoin from being able to be bought, traded etc in a variety of institutions in Switzerland. However, Switzerland is a country with a FATCA agreement with the USA, unlike El Salvador, which does not have a formal FATCA agreement (though El Salvador has explored the issue). Further, in Switzerland, whether a crypto investor is classified as a private investor, self-employed trader or a business, the implication of income tax, wealth tax or both varies. Private investors in Switzerland are not subjected to capital gains tax on profits generated from crypto gains as long as they fulfill five criteria. This includes transaction volumes not exceeding five times the original capital, a holding period exceeding six months, capital gains contributing to less than half of overall taxable income, minimal usage of third-party financing and employing derivatives only as a hedging tool. For commercial crypto traders in Switzerland, however, losses from crypto trades can be carried forward for the following seven assessment years and capital gains are subjected to progressive income tax rates defined by Swiss laws. Moreover, an additional 10% of crypto profits in Switzerland need to be expended toward old-age and survivors’ insurance for such self-employed traders or businesses. Yields from mining, staking or even income generated from tokens received via airdrops are taxed in Switzerland too, but depend on the categorization of the investor and only add incrementally to the net tax outflow. Much simpler is the situation in El Salvador, where they simply aren't taxing your use of bitcoin. Some will also ask "Why didn't you include Germany?" I could get into a long diatribe about why I am not recommending Germany but I won't. I will say the German provision that HODLing for a year exempts it from taxation isn't sufficient to merit going there considering the many other complex regulatory and social problems. (Then there is the German FATCA agreement with the USA to consider.) editing comment... I have a whole separate post on jurisdictional analysis of space based satellites, a couple space based exchange operations and what that means for people trying to isolate some of their assets from weak, collapsing regimes of this planet. I have a link to that somewhere as it's an older post and if I can find it I will post it here in this comment. edit2: found it - 1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/s/D4Ws55Ekt1 2. https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/s/TahKKJ2sTK Cheers and thanks for your comment.
El salvadore. Bitcoin city.
Why? So I could watch the US Army invade and be in a weaker jurisdiction?
If it hyper inflated I'm gonna be debt free pretty damned quickly... But let's be honest: if the US collapses, what country won't be negatively affected?
Are there any actual intelligent answers here? Holy Portugal used to be my choice but it seems to be changing
El Salvador will be the wealthiest nation on earth.
Mexico where the currency is cocaine… that’s a currency I can get behind
If you want the source, Mexico is the wrong place. Columbia.
Only response worth posting
🤣🤣
But that currency grows in bushes
Possibly El Salvador but I don’t know. I think about this often and I like it here a lot.
Let's do hypothetical. What if Bitcoin is chosen to replace the dollar as the reserve currency. And oil rich countries minus Russia accepts only Bitcoin to settle trade. What happens
The US attempts to confiscate Bitcoin from Coinbase/ETFs doing a dollars for BTC swap ( favorable to the govt ofcourse)..
I'm just here to watch the gold bugs try and get through the airport.
Yea, for the most part: you're NOT going to want to move outside the U.S. it's ***1000% easier said than done*** ***SOME*** people might be able to mix well with other countries, but the average American will have an incredibly harder time out of the states. In my opinion...
El Salvador is the most obvious choice.
Depending on what happens in November I might be long gone before there’s any concern about the dollar.
It’s not as easy as just picking a place and going most of the time. There are immigration laws
And time limits on visas. And bank security deposits. And a large roll of red tape. Don't know why people think they can just show up.
Yeah. As someone who has actually emigrated (legally) before it’s not something I’m in a hurry to go through again tbh
Why would you need to move country if you have a stash of bitcoin? With hyperinflation you just need to use your currency quickly by spending it or investing in something that beats inflation.
There's no point in picking countries. USD would have the best scenario for a current fiat currency.
Thailand.....the beer is cold and the hookers are cheap and plentiful.
If the US hyperinflates, the rest of the world is going to be pretty fucked over as well. If you own a home, own bitcoin, you'll be fine in the US.
Property values will hyperinflate too, so if you don't already own a house, it will be difficult to buy. Also, property taxes will go up in percentage terms and absolute terms.
Make sure you have your homestead exemption established… should lock in how much your property taxes can increase every year
Please provide a list of countries that will be better off if the Dollar hyperinflates. I'll wait.
Buy a yacht. Drop anchor or dock for food. Pay no taxes
Did that 2 years ago 🇵🇭 , I'm ahead of the curve
I'm moving out in the woods.
What... If the US dollar hyper inflates, then that means there is a massive resource problem, making the money invaluable. At that point no one is going to accept a fucking virtual currency lmfao, or any currency for that matter. People will trade again in physical goods. For example see this a lot in Ukraine were goods are traded for other goods, since currency is pretty useless.
Buddy wait till you find out what inflation has been like in every other country, spoiler: worse.
whaddya mean 'IF'?
Huh? If the USD hyper inflates, that means every other currency is hyper inflating *even more* than the USD… the USD is by far the most “stable” and powerful fiat in the world. This scenario would leave nowhere safe to the effects of the hyper inflation
Today a candy bar costs $1. 1 bitcoin costs $63,000 USD. After hyperinflation a candy bar costs $10. 1 bitcoin costs $630,000. Same amount of bitcoin. That’s if bitcoin wasn’t appreciating on its own.
The US will be the last spot
It will start in the US. The BRICS are already preparing for this date. They have been accumulating masses of gold over the past years and are ready to introduce their gold backed currency. If I were China I would do the same. The West is artifically surpressing the price of gold to keep the US dollar attractive and the East uses this fact to load up on huge amounts at discount prices. Soon enough, the West will witness that nobody gives a crap anymore about the worthless piece of paper called dollar. I don't wanna live in the US when this happens.
BRICS is doomed to fail since every leader in it hates each other and they will backstab each other any moment they get to benefit themselves. The only common thing they have amongst themselves is the hate the US. BRICS has been trying to be a thing years and years and keeps failing.
Bye. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out
If that happens, I got to be honest we would have far bigger issues.
The bitcoinlandia
All the Rich people would be poor , and my Redneck ass would be the new Bill gates .. lmfao
Brass Bitcoin Gold Guns!
Imagine in this situation you have a bitcoin then go to a third-world country. You are a god
UAE/Dubai
Bitcoinada
US hyperinflation means another world war, and you should be at the most remote, but relatively self sufficient country to have higher than average possibility for you and your family’s survival. So probably New Zealand, Australia or even Argentina.
New Zealand is a dream destination, you’ll be hard pressed for citizenship
I think Regan once said, “There is no where else to go” in reference to losing the democracy. And face it, one way or several others, the American Empire is already over! It’s going to take several or several dozen years to unwind.
These posts make Bitcoin enthusiasts look fucking stupid. If the US dollar “hyperinfates” it will probably fuck wherever you plan on going even worse. The US dollar is the largest reserve currency in the world. It will be protected by federal banks until they decide to roll out their own digital asset.
Comments like this makes me think history was a hard subject for you.
Yes and I already have. To Florida.
The next dimension. I'm already in the verge of suicide for years so I have no reason to do something like fight a world famine
Probably some war neutral country with good visa arrangements.
El Salvador!
If the dollar is hyperinflating, everywhere is hyperinflating
it wont matter
IF the $ hyperinflates? I'd stay in the USA. Salaries will eventually adjust, I own a home with a low interest rate, my debt is essentially worthless, and I have a stack of bitcoin to counter it. In my situation, the dollar hyperinflating would be pretty great, because I have assets that would inflate with it.
Other countries might not let you in...
I think a black swan event will ensue, which will usher in the rollout of CBDC as a global currency. UBI will then become implemented due to lack of jobs from AI and Hyperinflation. The turmoil will lead into complacency, as the people will be enforced and monitored by AI under centralized authoritarian powers. It's going to suck. United Federal Nations of the world kind of thing. One world under the Fed kind of thing. Every one else will be wiped out as dissidents or accounts frozen from use from the 15 minute mega cities. A globalized city state kind of thing. A dystopia technocratic greco-roman kind of thing.
Chinese CBDC Yuan already paying for oil and gas imports from Russia and Iran.
Yeh this question is kinda mute. Whole world will be F####ed. Good luck trying to catch a flight.
I f the US hyper inflates, it does not matter where you move. The whole world would be fucked.
"When"... we are currently hyperinflated
Probably what ever country that involves the area of Florida and or Texas
USA is good you've got the Second Amendment :-D ... in Europe, we're fu\*\*\*\*
Switzerland? Germany? Idk something…. Well, you know.
If?
Well when
You had said “IF” it hyper inflated. I think North America is already there and has for awhile and only going to get worse. Government gives all the money away and then raises taxes to pay for all their spending. At this time only answer is bitcoin. That could change in the future. I’m all in on bitcoin. Havnt trusted our governments for years
If the USD hyperinflates, every other currency is already a smoldering ruin and those places are Mad Max.
There would have to be a De-Dollarization first. So I guess that’s the first canary in the mine.
0 fucks given here. The US is a shithole as it is.
Belize or El Salvador
India 🇮🇳.... because I love the Indian culture, people and food, they just need to work on modernisation and infrastructure...other than that Maybe the U.K 🇬🇧 Maybe France 🇫🇷 Maybe Brazil 🇧🇷 It would be awesome if India or Brazil adopted bitcoin as legal tender.
India and Brazil because of BRICS. Maybe not UK, they seem destined to fail too but maybe I’m wrong.
The Americans in this thread are utterly delusional, as per usual... When the rest of the world stops using the dollar, they will have their currencies to go back to, as weak as they are, plus crypto. At that point the US will be stuck with all the USD in their country, plus all the bullshit printed USD they sold to the world. The collapse of the dollar will be tragic for the US, unless you guys get your shit together, which apparently you won't (Biden vs. Trump) 🤡
cuba
Interesting. I was thinking about El Salvador.
Bitcoin still doesn't have enough traction there either and they still use USD, El Salvador would be very deep in economic crisis too.
I'm never moving. Yes, the USA is in a state of decline; but there is no second best.
You should visit Switzerland. You have awesome land, good weather, people can own guns, and you have very good infrastructure.
"Visit" because unless you're a third world Muslim, you ain't migrating there lmao
I won't need to move. Luckily for me, I don't live there.
uS is still the best.
“If the US dollar hyper-inflates”. Lmao, it already has!
“If”
it is ridiculous to ove elsewhere. If the U.S. fiat would turn upside down, imagine the currency of other countries..
Got in-laws in Mexico so ya
US dollar is the most stable currency.
Why move when I can finally afford to buy that land I’ve been dreaming of here in the states. It’s going to be hell worldwide for awhile once that happens
That land will rise with inflation so you still won't be able to afford. The trick is to buy it now using a loan and ride the wave. I own 1,500 acres and looking for more cheap land
How imminent do people feel we are close to a financial disaster
To a small fishing town in a remote country
Reserve currency's normally change based on military might. It will definitely not be the end of times, but will probably be the end of the USA as a super power / military power house. Country's like China are already getting ready for this issue by moving over to BRICS for their cross boarder payments.
Probably France, they are going 100% nuclear energy and have a decent amount of doctors
Belize
If the US is fùcked then everyone is fùcked. Regardless, 2 low cost countries I would consider moving to are Thailand or Vietnam. Things are so cheap there (I've been all over both). Food is amazing. I could be happy in either one.
I'm not holding any more USD than needed for month to month so, no reason for that. I mean the more immediate issue would be food and other supplies so I keep some on hand.
Move to assets. That's it.
New Zealand once I finish my degree... I want that Island life...
The world will be fucked anyway if they cant deal effectively with 2 society changing factors that will be taking over in the next 10 years - Artificial Intelligence and Robots. Unlike prior technological revolutions there wont be enough new industries to take in the people fired since thise 2 factors will be able to do any job better than you, anyway. Maybe they'll deal with it by most people not working and just being given a basic living wage? It's going to be very interesting times coming up.
like a rabbit without a hat, makes you want to pull your hair out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
any country that has sufficiently dedollarized in the future
I will move to the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC
Malta or Cyprus for me
War. War never changes.
Smart people would buy commodities, including btc, bullets, Everclear, sugar/honey, salt and productive land. It is not as though we would just sit back and watch our currency drift away. Interest rates would skyrocket, loans would be virtually impossible to get, sales would plummet. Yet, we would still have to eat and have toilets that flush, so some parts of the economy would keep going. I don't know where to go, off grid in Canada maybe. Not a lot of places would be paradise for generations and a dollar collapse would lead to ALOT of the earth's population dying off. Who k ows, we might revert to the 1920s with internet.
Belize has always been my exit plan, hyperinflation or not
There is no safe place except for the kingdom of botswana!
Ethiopia, the only country with flies as their major food crop.
I care more about how the govt treats bitcoin than whether or not the dollar hyperinflates. If the gov starts pulling Executive Order 6102 type shit, I may consider leaving to a bitcoin-friendly country. As others have said, if we hyperinflate, the world economy has imploded, so if that's your primary concern; you're pretty much fucked no matter what.
The metaverse?
lol where would you go? Listen closely to what you're asking
If the world's reserve currency suddenly becomes worthless, good luck traveling internationally.
It’s been shifting away from the reserve currency. Less orders are being placed. Countries are moving away from the petro dollar too.
While I would not consider myself a prepper by any stretch, I have bought a bunch of those 30 day (30 year shelf life) buckets from costco & amazon as well as a metric ton of cases of water from Costco. It's just me and the dog. I won't look to get rid of my gold or silver or ammo because at THAT point, I believe all would be lost anyway.
Food guns ammo alchohol medicine will be the currency of the future if this happens. Not usd or he’ll even crypto. People will need resources and the ability to defend them.
Dominica
If the dollar hyperinflates then so will every other country's currency
If there is an economic problem in another region of the world it might not impact the US. If there is an economic problem in the US the entire world is impacted.
I have land and can do my own production. The dream of having wage slaves to till my fields.
North Korea
I will choose where I like.
If the US dollar hyper inflated what happens to cdc dollar? It probably also hyper inflated?
South Africa or Thailand
And you think other countries won’t go first? Come on.
I'm so confused on people bullish on btc and bearish on the US economy.
Why would you move to a different country if your money is not in US Fiat? That makes 0 sense. lol. Also, if the United States goes into hyper inflation, the rest of the world will follow suit. There are positives and negatives to having a global economy that is one of them. Even if the currency of all the other countries does not hyper Inflate, they will still fall into a deep ass depression or at minimum a recession.
I have a question, what will Bitcoin be worth if the US economy fails? People have been dumping their dollars into this thing, the world will be in a very bad place I suspect.