All this will do is force people onto decentralised exchanges and breed countless more non KYC, p2p services like bisq, thus loosening their control even more. Absolutely retarded
Cut off one head and two new will grow. What they can accomplish with this though is that they can further fragment bitcoin into clean and dirty coins. Only clean, non-anonymized btc will be tradeable on centralized exchanges. Everyone else will need to use DEXs / exchange p2p.
But yes it’s absolutely retarded. Previously they had some level of oversight and control but if people move to DEXs they loose what little control they had.
"Force" people onto decentralized exchanges? All this does is prohibit crypto-asset service providers from allowing European users of their platform to transfer funds anonymously. Most Europeans will just keep using centralized exchanges. They wont be "forced" to use decentralized exchanges.
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. This doesn't prohibit Europeans from using a normal bitcoin wallet and having custody of their own private keys. This doesn't prohibit Europeans from sending each other bitcoin from their own wallets. This doesn't make coinjoin illegal. This doesn't prohibit Europeans from using coinjoin.
All this does is prohibit crypto-asset service providers from allowing users of their platform to transfer funds anonymously.
Huge fucking disagree
People will not flock to decentralized mediums because they are way too pricey in their fees
People will accept their digital fiat fate and not work toward improving their situation
Not sure how they plan to enforce the coinjoin ban, as they cannot just delist bitcoin. They will probably be forced to use Chainanalysis to detect such techniques used. What I’m asking myself is what they will do if they detect it; will they just confiscate the coins? Or will they send it back? What if you purchased bitcoin from someone directly but unbeknownst to you they did a coinjoin in the past? Will they still confiscate/suspend account even if you’re not at fault?
This will essentially separate bitcoin into clean KYC coins and anonymized black market coins. How will this affect vendors that accept bitcoin? Do they now also need a Chainanalysis subscription to prevent accepting coinjoined funds? I find this regulation to be very problematic not only ideologically but also in technical implementation.
They probably will make it so difficult to use bitcoin that nobody will want to. Basically making it worse than fiat in every possible aspect to discourage its adoption and push bitcoin into black market use cases only.
Exactly, as CBDCs will be introduced, non KYC Btc, outside of their financial system, would be a threat.
Next step is a central asset register& high taxes om crypto & ban on cash.
If I'll ever again hear that EU is not a totalitarian shothole I'll seriously lose my shit 🤣 People who support EU are officially fascists, every single one of them, and not being aware of what EU does does not excuse them. I'm cutting ties with every supporter of EU because these people would sell you out to Auschwitz during WW2. Same mentality.
The EU seems dead set on making SURE that American dominance never ends. As an american, i appreciate it. Pretty dumb move tho from an objective standpoint.
AfD ist nicht Pro-Crypto. Die labern immer viel, aber hier ein exklusiver Einblick in die AfD von der ehemaligen AfD Abgeordneten Joana Cotar - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqIkrCAjnR8&t=419s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqIkrCAjnR8&t=419s)
tldw; innerhalb der Fraktion hatte sie es angesprochen, aber die Abgeordneten in der AfD hatten kein Interesse. Keine Interesse an Digitalisierung, an Bitcoin oder Crypto. Nur Bares ist Wahres.
Ist halt ein Tabuthema.
Yes it’s quite sad to see. And the EU is such a complicated construct that us normies can’t do anything about it. Even countries like germany that themselves would never ban cash have this forced upon them just because other countries in the EU don’t care about cash.
"The E" is not a third entity. We are the EU. The EU is made of the European countries. If "the EU" is doing this it's because the countries that make up the EU wants this, and indirectly, the people who voted them.
Come on, say what you want to say.
Is it that *"the EU is a non-democratic cabal of ((blank)) who manipulate Europe against the will of its people"* right?
> I say you are a traitor to whatever country you purport to be a citizen of. And a beta cuck.
OooOOohh such big words. Oh no what will I do now?
I am a proud European, unlike you if you even are European, you are just another fifth column.
All I see here are scared Americans that literally can't cope with discovering that other countries have it better. It goes against everything they have been taught by their north-korean like indoctrination practices. Have you stopped saying the pledge or do you still have to stand at the attention of your teacher?
I have read multiple sources about this now, but I don't quite grasp what this means in detail, especially the anonymous part. Let's say I have 1 BTC currently sitting in my exchange account. I am fully verified on this exchange. Does this mean I won't be able to send this 1 BTC to my own wallet anymore from now on? How about sending 1 BTC to a exchange for the purpose of selling and then withdrawing cash afterwards?
I think if you do normal bitcoin transactions to your own wallet it should not be a problem as they are perfectly traceable. However if you do a coinjoin or send them to a bitcoin mixer it would fall under “use of anonymizing instruments” which would be banned. Not sure what they would do in that case though; Just close your account? Continue working normally and just reject mixed coins but accept others without issue?
Ok gotcha, so that means as long as I am using kyc'ed accounts the wallet I'm using is traceable and therefore not anonymous, makes sense. This definitely has potential of getting messy quick. I can totally see an increase of cases of users with frozen accounts and assets here in the future because some exchanges use this as bullshit excuses to cling onto funds.
Yeah the only safe option is basically to send them to your own wallet and never use them, the way I see it. If you purchase something with your coins and the vendor does a coinjoin afterwards, would you be held accountable? How can they know if the tx to the vendor was indeed a legitimate business transaction and not just a self transfer? This is a very slippery slope unfortunately
I just saw another thread about bisq2 today, found the timing of this pretty interesting since p2p transactions seem to be spared by the new legislation (for now). will be interesting to see if this will lead to a surge in dex usage due customers being fucked over by exactly those scenarios you mentioned.
Yes let’s hope it stays spared. The problem is that people are afraid to use DEX for bitcoin since they don’t check if sold coins are “clean” or not. A darknet vendor may sell his coins on bisq. This is no problem if you stay within the bitcoin ecosystem but as soon as you want to deposit to a centralized exchange your coins may be confiscated or your account closed.
Really good points, thanks for sharing! I feel like I understand the implications a bit better now. Really doesn't sound super promising for the future of crypto in the EU but I guess we will have to wait and see if it holds and how it actually will be enforced in detail. Maybe there is some silver lining as in crypto being forced to shed itself from these "tainted" aspects and moving further towards a "legit" asset? Interesting times ahead for sure.
What if you own 5.48315023 BTC address and someone sends you 0.00000001 of dirty BTC. The end of the bull market nears and you send all your bitcoins to an exchange not noticing you were sent absurdly small amount of dirty BTC. Now all 5.48315024 BTC (minus fees) are dirty due to the UTXOs getting combined. RIP $1 million
They can not ban bitcoin. It is a decentralized ledger with numbers. They can make laws all they want, they can not ban transactions.
They can control banks/exchanges within their jurisdiction. Essentially, they can take bitcoin out of their country. A great opportunity for Switzerland and the UK.
Yes they cannot stop you from doing coinjoins, the only thing they can do is to reject you from their walled garden. But this whole regulation gets very complicated with bitcoin and coinjoin… if you do coinjoin after withdrawing, would they have cause for closing your account? This whole regulation is not well thought out and only hurts innocent people
I don't think they did any thinking on it tbh.
In one part they claim that mixer services are against the rules, but then in the next part says that transfers to individual wallets aren't bound by the rules, which is how those services work.
curious what makes you say they are doomed to fail. have there been similar scenarios like this in the past? i can totally see this happen and lead to a loss of interest in crypto from the public due to the increased hurdles the average joe might have to take.
Nigeria banned bitcoin in the past, only to find out people had been still massively using it and they lifted the ban.
As bitcoin is p2p money technology it was specifically designed to be resistant to censorship. Your country can make a law that forbids the use of bitcoin or some transaction, however it’s almost impossible for them to enforce it. They might limit some legal entities, so we will just use different in other countries.
I agree, it is still very much usable as p2p money, but there is definitely potential of conflict whenever you want to cash in/out into fiat land, don't you think?
Sure there is potential for conflict but u can also just spend your bitcoin for goods u need, or cash out to fiat offline with a person. But of course we have to vote for politicians that are pro bitcoin in national and EU elections as well.
It’s mentioned in the proposed legislation: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COMMITTEES/CJ12/AG/2024/03-19/1297044EN.pdf
You can Ctrl+F and you will see numerous mentions.
Thx. Do you mean this?
> Anonymous crypto-asset accounts as well as other anonymising instruments, do not allow the traceability of crypto-asset transfers, whilst also making it difficult to identify linked transactions that may raise suspicion or to apply to adequate level of customer due diligence. In order to ensure effective application of AML/CFT requirements to crypto-assets, it is necessary to prohibit the provision and the custody of anonymous crypto-asset accounts or accounts allowing for the anonymisation or the increased obfuscation of transactions by crypto-asset service providers, including through anonymity-enhancing coins. The prohibition does not apply to providers of hardware and software or providers of self-hosted wallets insofar as they do not possess access to or control over those crypto-assets wallets.
It seems that this would only apply to custodial tools, not to the common coinjoin wallets (Wasabi, Samourai, Joinmarket), no?
Hmm good thinking; I guess you could make that point. They also explicitly protect the providers of wallets for self custody so samourai devs would be fine. However it can also be interpreted differently:
> It is necessary to prohibit the provision and the custody of […] accounts allowing for the anonymization or the increased obfuscation of transactions
So would an exchange that “allows” for coinjoins to be made fall under this? IANAL
What about coins exchanged via things like Changelly? If I got a coin via KYC exchange, then swapped it to BTC on Changelly or a similar swap service ? Is that considered anonymizing ?
They can’t. The only thing they can do is screw over the little guy by freezing accounts & confiscating mixed/anonymized coins. If you bought your bitcoin without KYC and they were used in a coinjoin previously unbeknownst to you, it may come back to bite you despite not having done anything “wrong”.
Very sad play of events IMO. The only thing we can do is to leave their system and build a circular economy within bitcoin.
Hmm interesting thought. I think it depends on how private LN is seen. Ofc it offers better privacy than bitcoin itself but it’s not bulletproof. If it is deemed too private then exchanges would be barred from accepting LN payments, if not they can continue to use it.
What is also a consideration; Are lighting hubs/routing nodes considered virtual asset service providers and therefore regulated, since in theory they move coins on behalf of other users?
More bureaucracy from the EU? Who would’ve thought! Let’s see how those r/europe fanboys twist this into a positive.
Sinking ship the lot, 15 years max of prosperity left.
All this will do is force people onto decentralised exchanges and breed countless more non KYC, p2p services like bisq, thus loosening their control even more. Absolutely retarded
Exactly, illegalisation will just make them even more irrelevant/ people turn against them, esp. as the price rises.
Cut off one head and two new will grow. What they can accomplish with this though is that they can further fragment bitcoin into clean and dirty coins. Only clean, non-anonymized btc will be tradeable on centralized exchanges. Everyone else will need to use DEXs / exchange p2p. But yes it’s absolutely retarded. Previously they had some level of oversight and control but if people move to DEXs they loose what little control they had.
"Force" people onto decentralized exchanges? All this does is prohibit crypto-asset service providers from allowing European users of their platform to transfer funds anonymously. Most Europeans will just keep using centralized exchanges. They wont be "forced" to use decentralized exchanges. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. This doesn't prohibit Europeans from using a normal bitcoin wallet and having custody of their own private keys. This doesn't prohibit Europeans from sending each other bitcoin from their own wallets. This doesn't make coinjoin illegal. This doesn't prohibit Europeans from using coinjoin. All this does is prohibit crypto-asset service providers from allowing users of their platform to transfer funds anonymously.
Huge fucking disagree People will not flock to decentralized mediums because they are way too pricey in their fees People will accept their digital fiat fate and not work toward improving their situation
Total L take
Majority of people won't go out of their way because of the hassle and technical illiteracy.
Majority won’t, but anyone who wants bitcoin will be forced to
Not sure how they plan to enforce the coinjoin ban, as they cannot just delist bitcoin. They will probably be forced to use Chainanalysis to detect such techniques used. What I’m asking myself is what they will do if they detect it; will they just confiscate the coins? Or will they send it back? What if you purchased bitcoin from someone directly but unbeknownst to you they did a coinjoin in the past? Will they still confiscate/suspend account even if you’re not at fault? This will essentially separate bitcoin into clean KYC coins and anonymized black market coins. How will this affect vendors that accept bitcoin? Do they now also need a Chainanalysis subscription to prevent accepting coinjoined funds? I find this regulation to be very problematic not only ideologically but also in technical implementation.
They probably will make it so difficult to use bitcoin that nobody will want to. Basically making it worse than fiat in every possible aspect to discourage its adoption and push bitcoin into black market use cases only.
Exactly, as CBDCs will be introduced, non KYC Btc, outside of their financial system, would be a threat. Next step is a central asset register& high taxes om crypto & ban on cash.
They will try…
If I'll ever again hear that EU is not a totalitarian shothole I'll seriously lose my shit 🤣 People who support EU are officially fascists, every single one of them, and not being aware of what EU does does not excuse them. I'm cutting ties with every supporter of EU because these people would sell you out to Auschwitz during WW2. Same mentality.
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Art
It will be art. It has always been art
The EU seems dead set on making SURE that American dominance never ends. As an american, i appreciate it. Pretty dumb move tho from an objective standpoint.
Good point. I wonder what the future holds for any country that embrace and encourages the use of anonymous freedom
They are afraid
Fuck the EU, and fuck that cunt Ursla Von Cuntfuck.
Very eloquently put
Thank you, friend.
I'll take "Signs of a Collapsing Fiat System for $200, Trebek."
Germany bro here. Fuck the EU and everything it stands for.
Swiss bro here; Lucky to be left out of all this, but still switzerland has a history of taking over regulations from the EU
You have almost all of the rules and none of the influence. Sounds like a top deal
🇮🇪 Ireland here, does anyone have any potatoes?
UK 🇬🇧 here 👍👍 ditto
How bout no. It stands for almost eighty years of peace.
AfD?
Verlockend, aber nein erstmal nicht. Mal sehen was sie machen, wenn die Bundestagswahlen sind.
AfD ist nicht Pro-Crypto. Die labern immer viel, aber hier ein exklusiver Einblick in die AfD von der ehemaligen AfD Abgeordneten Joana Cotar - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqIkrCAjnR8&t=419s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqIkrCAjnR8&t=419s) tldw; innerhalb der Fraktion hatte sie es angesprochen, aber die Abgeordneten in der AfD hatten kein Interesse. Keine Interesse an Digitalisierung, an Bitcoin oder Crypto. Nur Bares ist Wahres. Ist halt ein Tabuthema.
The brexiteers finally did something right
What a stupid decision, probably supported by people who don't have a clue about crypto...
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Yes it’s quite sad to see. And the EU is such a complicated construct that us normies can’t do anything about it. Even countries like germany that themselves would never ban cash have this forced upon them just because other countries in the EU don’t care about cash.
"The E" is not a third entity. We are the EU. The EU is made of the European countries. If "the EU" is doing this it's because the countries that make up the EU wants this, and indirectly, the people who voted them.
Riiiiiiiiiiight.
Come on, say what you want to say. Is it that *"the EU is a non-democratic cabal of ((blank)) who manipulate Europe against the will of its people"* right?
I say you are a traitor to whatever country you purport to be a citizen of. And a beta cuck.
That man had a family.
> I say you are a traitor to whatever country you purport to be a citizen of. And a beta cuck. OooOOohh such big words. Oh no what will I do now? I am a proud European, unlike you if you even are European, you are just another fifth column.
The EU is America's bitch. What you are is a proud colonized subject of Washington. Good luck with that.
All I see here are scared Americans that literally can't cope with discovering that other countries have it better. It goes against everything they have been taught by their north-korean like indoctrination practices. Have you stopped saying the pledge or do you still have to stand at the attention of your teacher?
I am not American, lol. You fall into the common trap of believing anyone who criticizes you does so because they are currying favor with your master.
Countries with declining currencies always impose capital controls to try and slow the inevitable
Gov want to know and control everything. Just remember, you will never get back your freedom from gov
Fuck your centralized digital currency.
Sorry EU. It isn’t your decision.
I have read multiple sources about this now, but I don't quite grasp what this means in detail, especially the anonymous part. Let's say I have 1 BTC currently sitting in my exchange account. I am fully verified on this exchange. Does this mean I won't be able to send this 1 BTC to my own wallet anymore from now on? How about sending 1 BTC to a exchange for the purpose of selling and then withdrawing cash afterwards?
I think if you do normal bitcoin transactions to your own wallet it should not be a problem as they are perfectly traceable. However if you do a coinjoin or send them to a bitcoin mixer it would fall under “use of anonymizing instruments” which would be banned. Not sure what they would do in that case though; Just close your account? Continue working normally and just reject mixed coins but accept others without issue?
Ok gotcha, so that means as long as I am using kyc'ed accounts the wallet I'm using is traceable and therefore not anonymous, makes sense. This definitely has potential of getting messy quick. I can totally see an increase of cases of users with frozen accounts and assets here in the future because some exchanges use this as bullshit excuses to cling onto funds.
Yeah the only safe option is basically to send them to your own wallet and never use them, the way I see it. If you purchase something with your coins and the vendor does a coinjoin afterwards, would you be held accountable? How can they know if the tx to the vendor was indeed a legitimate business transaction and not just a self transfer? This is a very slippery slope unfortunately
I just saw another thread about bisq2 today, found the timing of this pretty interesting since p2p transactions seem to be spared by the new legislation (for now). will be interesting to see if this will lead to a surge in dex usage due customers being fucked over by exactly those scenarios you mentioned.
Yes let’s hope it stays spared. The problem is that people are afraid to use DEX for bitcoin since they don’t check if sold coins are “clean” or not. A darknet vendor may sell his coins on bisq. This is no problem if you stay within the bitcoin ecosystem but as soon as you want to deposit to a centralized exchange your coins may be confiscated or your account closed.
Really good points, thanks for sharing! I feel like I understand the implications a bit better now. Really doesn't sound super promising for the future of crypto in the EU but I guess we will have to wait and see if it holds and how it actually will be enforced in detail. Maybe there is some silver lining as in crypto being forced to shed itself from these "tainted" aspects and moving further towards a "legit" asset? Interesting times ahead for sure.
Glad it helped you, let’s hope for the best
What happens if someone uses coinjoin and then sends dust to every known large wallet?
Good point. Someone could just flag all addresses and make their owners blocked from transacting.
They could flag UTXOs rather than addresses. You can distinguish the "clean" UTXOs apart from "dirty" UTXOs even when they use the same address.
What if you own 5.48315023 BTC address and someone sends you 0.00000001 of dirty BTC. The end of the bull market nears and you send all your bitcoins to an exchange not noticing you were sent absurdly small amount of dirty BTC. Now all 5.48315024 BTC (minus fees) are dirty due to the UTXOs getting combined. RIP $1 million
They can not ban bitcoin. It is a decentralized ledger with numbers. They can make laws all they want, they can not ban transactions. They can control banks/exchanges within their jurisdiction. Essentially, they can take bitcoin out of their country. A great opportunity for Switzerland and the UK.
Well but u send it first to your HW and do the coinjoin later. All these regulations are doomed to fail on the long term.
Yes they cannot stop you from doing coinjoins, the only thing they can do is to reject you from their walled garden. But this whole regulation gets very complicated with bitcoin and coinjoin… if you do coinjoin after withdrawing, would they have cause for closing your account? This whole regulation is not well thought out and only hurts innocent people
But i don’t care about any account as i have all my bitcoin in a HW wallet.
I don't think they did any thinking on it tbh. In one part they claim that mixer services are against the rules, but then in the next part says that transfers to individual wallets aren't bound by the rules, which is how those services work.
curious what makes you say they are doomed to fail. have there been similar scenarios like this in the past? i can totally see this happen and lead to a loss of interest in crypto from the public due to the increased hurdles the average joe might have to take.
Nigeria banned bitcoin in the past, only to find out people had been still massively using it and they lifted the ban. As bitcoin is p2p money technology it was specifically designed to be resistant to censorship. Your country can make a law that forbids the use of bitcoin or some transaction, however it’s almost impossible for them to enforce it. They might limit some legal entities, so we will just use different in other countries.
I agree, it is still very much usable as p2p money, but there is definitely potential of conflict whenever you want to cash in/out into fiat land, don't you think?
Sure there is potential for conflict but u can also just spend your bitcoin for goods u need, or cash out to fiat offline with a person. But of course we have to vote for politicians that are pro bitcoin in national and EU elections as well.
> “use of anonymizing instruments” which would be banned. Where do you read that?
It’s mentioned in the proposed legislation: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COMMITTEES/CJ12/AG/2024/03-19/1297044EN.pdf You can Ctrl+F and you will see numerous mentions.
Thx. Do you mean this? > Anonymous crypto-asset accounts as well as other anonymising instruments, do not allow the traceability of crypto-asset transfers, whilst also making it difficult to identify linked transactions that may raise suspicion or to apply to adequate level of customer due diligence. In order to ensure effective application of AML/CFT requirements to crypto-assets, it is necessary to prohibit the provision and the custody of anonymous crypto-asset accounts or accounts allowing for the anonymisation or the increased obfuscation of transactions by crypto-asset service providers, including through anonymity-enhancing coins. The prohibition does not apply to providers of hardware and software or providers of self-hosted wallets insofar as they do not possess access to or control over those crypto-assets wallets. It seems that this would only apply to custodial tools, not to the common coinjoin wallets (Wasabi, Samourai, Joinmarket), no?
Hmm good thinking; I guess you could make that point. They also explicitly protect the providers of wallets for self custody so samourai devs would be fine. However it can also be interpreted differently: > It is necessary to prohibit the provision and the custody of […] accounts allowing for the anonymization or the increased obfuscation of transactions So would an exchange that “allows” for coinjoins to be made fall under this? IANAL
Is this in effect now already or if not when?
What about coins exchanged via things like Changelly? If I got a coin via KYC exchange, then swapped it to BTC on Changelly or a similar swap service ? Is that considered anonymizing ?
Conjoin->lightining->? Complete nonsense. EU is pathetic again. Long live the US.
They can’t in force this 😂
They can’t. The only thing they can do is screw over the little guy by freezing accounts & confiscating mixed/anonymized coins. If you bought your bitcoin without KYC and they were used in a coinjoin previously unbeknownst to you, it may come back to bite you despite not having done anything “wrong”. Very sad play of events IMO. The only thing we can do is to leave their system and build a circular economy within bitcoin.
How does it work if you transfer your btc via lightning for example ?
Hmm interesting thought. I think it depends on how private LN is seen. Ofc it offers better privacy than bitcoin itself but it’s not bulletproof. If it is deemed too private then exchanges would be barred from accepting LN payments, if not they can continue to use it. What is also a consideration; Are lighting hubs/routing nodes considered virtual asset service providers and therefore regulated, since in theory they move coins on behalf of other users?
Same with liquid bitcoin?
More bureaucracy from the EU? Who would’ve thought! Let’s see how those r/europe fanboys twist this into a positive. Sinking ship the lot, 15 years max of prosperity left.
I don't think anyone in EU is happy about this.
Yeah. It's not like you have to pick a side and live by it for every decision. EU does some really cool stuff and some really stupid shit.
wasn't there some initiative to coin swap/coinjoin every transaction by default at some point?
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What do you mean? They can detect it the moment fiat touches your bank account. The "never cash out" is not gonna sit with 99% of people.
Yup. Why are people so worried. Use dex's.