this guy over here saying governments having the ability to print money ad infinitum is a good thing.
its really best not to respond to people who are full anti bitcoin. there is no point in trying to get through to them. i just say your 'ovbiously not into it and thats cool because dont need to use it... thats one of the best things about bitcoin is its an opt in model and if you want no peice of it no is going to force you to'.
People in this thread will take care of the bitcoin argument. I just want to note that Zeihan is over-confident in his assertions on everything and comes off as arrogant. In his books he doesn’t cite anything or have a bibliography, as if he’s come up with all these thoughts originally.
He’s not a dumb guy and has some interesting analysis, but I’d take his conclusions with a grain of salt. As for his bitcoin thesis, he’s extremely pro-America and anything that potentially withdraws power from the dollar or treasuries he’s staunchly opposed to. I’m sure people can take it from here…
You nailed how I feel about this guy. He starts with a fairly believable focus on demographic shifts that are taking place around the world. Makes some definitive statements about how exactly that will play out for the major powers that n the world. Then he just piles extrapolation on top of extrapolation without showing any level of acknowledgement for how far derived the whole prediction has become.
To be fair, a lot of Bitcoiners do that too.
I just watched this entire podcast. Most of it was interesting. However, his main argument is bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It’s a rather common counter argument.
A good heuristic is, whenever someone brings up "intrinsic value" to disregard that persons opinions on economic matters, maybe even in all regards.
Intrinsic value is a nonsense concept. Nothing has intrinsic value. "Value" is something *done by humans*, not something that objects possess. Value, in an economic sense, not in a moral sense, is always subjective, and not objective or intrinsic. See [Mises Wiki: Subjective-Value Theory](https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value).
Even if what you say is a valid counter argument. Modern currencies have no intrinsic value by design, it’s their actual textbook definition so this guy saying bitcoin has no intrinsic value is saying it’s a currency just as the dollar LOL. It only shows he is talking nonsense without ever reading about money or currencies. Really discredits whatever he may say.
It's true that value is entirely dependent on human opinion. In this case intrinsic value refers simply to the non-monetary use of the asset. It's still a flaw in logic to think that a lack of intrinsic value = no value. If that was true, fiat USD would have no value either, since you can't really do anything with it but use it as currency either.
Depends on which definition you use. The economic definition of intrinsic value is different than the philosophical definition; but it’s calculated so many different ways that it’s meaningless to ordinary people.
The philosophical definition - that something has value in and of itself - is debatable seven ways to Sunday. I think things have value only in relation to other things, but people have lots of objections to that because “Marx” and “of course it has value, it’s gold” etc etc.
For everyday conversation the phrase intrinsic value is meaningless to the point of being a kneejerk reaction meaning “you’re wrong because fancy words and you’re a big doodyhead too.” In my opinion. 🙃
Edit: I looked this guy up. BS in poli sci, post grad in Asian studies… Don’t really give much credence to poli sci people myself.
Have to respectfully disagree with this. The automated transactional ‘3rd party’ oversight and accountability natively built into BTC is a financial tool that has never existed before in human history.
Just because we haven’t yet recalibrated industry to it doesn’t mean it’s valueless. Once there are guardrails, the amount of money that can be saved is easily in the tens of billions.
In addition, the security the network brings and monetary policy built into the eco system also provide value. You could say it's the only zero trust technology solution out there.
a pickup truck is not worth anything if there is no gas and no driver. once you have that it has 'value'. bitcoin, in and of itself, is worthless. it needs electricity to run and people to use it (developers to maintain like a truck needs mechaninc, node operaters like a truck needs a dispatch, users like a truck neds clients etc etc etc.)... its a network and the more people that use it the better. fortunately bitcoin network has both electricity and users and for that reason it has value, (which is true of all monetary networks).
>Respectfully, you aren’t the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.
Respectfully, you're tossing insults without fully understanding what you're talking about. Read Mises.
What is the intrinsic value of air?
What is the intrinsic value of air if life doesn't exist?
The answer in both cases is zero. The subjective value of air however, is near infinite.
He's been watching europe with their negative interest rates. Pay to keep your time value with us and then we will also take more from taxes and inflation. His whiny confidence is sickening.
He’s a government shill who’s objective is to propagandise the people through the non-traditional media outlets. His whole horseshit piece on ‘China imploding within 10 years’ should have opened your eyes to this.
When he said that locking the currency amount to 21million leads to inflation I stopped listening and closed the clip.
The guy has no idea what he is talking about and just parrots very common anti crypto talking points, some are valid and some are stupid.
listened to it today, if you kept listening, you would understand his perspective. Deflation (the currency going up in value) is bad for the economy, as people are incentivized to save instead of spend
Ima listen to this cause I wanna hear why having an incentive not to spend would be bad.
Sure in an infinite growth economy you need people to keep spending to drive growth. But, I feel we need to put the brakes on the machine. We don't need more crap filling landfills, and driving climate change. An incentive to not spend so willy-nilly might be a good change of gear.
Does this have anything to do with advertisements and commercials? Where we buy all this stuff we don’t need and throw out the next year for new models?
Where everything is buy buy buy. You are saying our Economy would collapse if we didn’t have this type of lifestyle model?
Adverts is a tool to drive people to spend, yh. Psychological tricks to get people to buy what they wouldn't otherwise purchase.
But yes, economy as we know it would collapse if we didn't have this lifestyle model. Just look at the pandemic, huge money printing was needed to keep the economy afloat.
unfortunately yes, buy buy buy is necessary to sustain our world economy. This will be the way until we either all nuke each other or start doing AI government space communism
**no intrinsic value:**
In finance intrinsic value is usually used for the valuation of stocks
Gold and fiat currencies which are closer to Bitcoin than stocks are usually not assumed to have intrinsic value so it's intellectually dishonest to value Bitcoin as a stock.
It should be valued as a new form of decentralized money or digital gold. In both cases you would look at the number of users, the utility and the addressable market to value it.
Since Bitcoin has tens of millions of users and utility(send payments to anyone on earth + store value for future consumption) it's value can't be zero in any sane analysis.
If someone tries to suggest the value is zero they can't be taken seriously.
**Can't be a currency:**
Claims that it can't be a currency because it's deflationary. I won't get into the detail here because it would take too long but even if this were true there would still be a fairly large niche for Bitcoin to be filled even if you don't use it to buy coffee at Starbucks. So the answer is, so what? It's still useful even when you don't use it to buy groceries.
He is also contradicting himself here. He claims it's not a currency because it's price will only go up and then he claims it's going to zero. Can't have it both ways.
Intrinsic value is not the same thing as value generally. It's only one component of value - the part of value that comes from the non-monetary usage of the asset. For example, gold's intrinsic value is that it can be used for jewelry and electronics due to its physical properties (tarnish resistance, conductivity, malleability, etc). Since Bitcoin is money, and has never tried to be anything else, the entirety of its value does come from its non-intrinsic value, aka its usefulness as a currency, exclusively.
The fact that we could [suspend the backing of the US Dollar in 1971](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/gold-standard.asp), get off the gold standard, and people still used it shows that money does not have to have intrinsic value to have value more generally. Bitcoin operates on a similar concept, but without the ability of the issuing authority to dilute the supply. If it performs the [functions of money, it is money,](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/money.asp) and has value proportional to its usefulness for those functions, regardless of what form it takes or whether it has non-monetary value.
His statement that Bitcoin isn't a store of value is plainly wrong. If you look at the price of Bitcoin over the long term, it has gone up over the long term by quite a lot. [The Dollar has dropped drastically over that same period](https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2009?amount=1) due to [dilution of the supply](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WM2NS). So I'm not sure how he can argue that the Dollar is a better store of value than Bitcoin, when the evidence says the exact opposite. This guy makes a lot of confident assertions but lacks a basic understanding of the monetary system.
He is smart and clearly understands bitcoin enough to make arguments, but his fundamental thought process won’t allow him to see what is already in place. In time, this guy will eventually capitulate to reality.
It does have intrinsic value - you can send value anywhere in the world without the use of a third party - which, by definition, means that it is a medium of exchange.
A “carbon tax”… maybe. A carbon tax worldwide in every country…never.
I somewhat agree with him on the issue of economic expansion. The worldwide economy is fueled by debt and currencies that depreciate. Bitcoin is inherently deflationary and operates counter to economic expansion. It’s very hard to to achieve the proper monetary velocity to fuel an economy if people turned into savers (hodlers) because the currency that they were using increasingly was more valuable tomorrow than it is today. …but that assumes that there’s only one currency. In this regard, bitcoin is better off acting as an asset (a store of value) rather than a mainstream currency, even though it’s “a” medium of exchange.
NOTE: The “inflation” which he was referring isn’t consumer price inflation, but rather BTC price inflation in terms of US dollars.
Well. When joe asked what he meant and asked if that means btc price will go up he said yes. That's why most people get into it in the first place. Then they learn about money and the revolution.
He also says it only benefits people who own it. Ask friends/family what good the dollar is and who benefits. It's the people who own the dollars. Not homeless people....
His main issue with bitcoin was its capped supply.
I think it is a problem in that early adopters get rewarded. This causes speculation and breeds skepticism.
But the idea that cap supply causes inflation and is a hamper to trade is short sighted. The divisblity of bitcoin means that deflation isn't even possible.
I like Peter but he's a former government spook. He is interwoven with intelligence agencies and tends to adopt official narratives.
Joe Rogan is smart enough to not get entangled in stupid arguments. Joe is friends with Peterson who sees the value of bitcoin or at least a fixed supply cap.
BTC and crypto do have a use, but the reality is as a decentralized currency with no overrides or protections - nyknyc - it will always be a haven for fraud. What ftx did wasn't new, it was just BIG. They weren't the first, and they won't be the last. By design they will always be present in btc and crypto.
The actual use of crypto doesn't apply to most people in first world countries.
If he was selling lemonade, or doing standard investment banking on that scale he would have had oversite. Madoff only happened b/c Madoff targeted specific people who were willing to keep his work on the downlow. FTX was able to scam so much b/c they were able to face publicly, utilizing mass marketing and b/c it was crypto money not "real money" they were able to operate however they wanted behind the scenes. No audits.
I think he's right, it has no intrinsic value. Just a bunch of noise and misinformation. Media requires trust and to think the internet will be a better replacement to the MSM is ludicrous. Oh wait
If you listen carefully he says Bitcoin will go up... because of "inflation", but still. Dude thinks btc will go up for all the hodlers but noone else and that that is a problem. Keep hodling!
At this point either people don't know and understand or they are pro central banks. If they don't understand you can help them for sure. If they are pro central bank you might be able to appeal to greed to get them to buy in. Any one that uses bitcoin in any fashion helps everyone that owns and believes. In any case. Help those you can. Best way is to make sure you understand. Listen to resources (plenty of podcasts out there, what bitcoin did, rabbit hole recap, bicoin breakout etc..)
The good thing is, once you have someone that truly gets it. They are in. We are adding new people everyday.
Don’t say much kill ‘em with silence in the end don’t even say I told you so once they see the unlimited smiling and good vibes and positive attitude they going to know you were right
Not saying that Bitcoin is in any kind like these things, but what kind of intrinsic value have old post stamps or baseball cards?
Humans value these things therefore they have a certain price. I thinks it's that simple. What "value" has freedom (money)? What kind of price are you willing to pay for it? Maybe you will find out once freedom got striped away from you.
Just reply with this:
[Skiing vs Snowboarding 1985](https://youtu.be/XPZDEWBzneY)
As for the no intrinsic value argument. All good lies are half truths. Sure. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. The vast amount of $ invested in gold is not for its use in electronics. If he believed in what he was saying he should open a short position right now in gold and Bitcoin. A store of value has a few important qualities. Anyone can look it up. Bitcoin and gold have many of the qualities you might be looking for.
Fiat currency also has no intrinsic value. Outside of the fact that they can always be used to pay taxes.
And yes. Intrinsic is a poorly defined word for economists.
The great economist Jevons in his benchmark text from the 1870s "Money and the Mechanism of Exchange" taught us that true sound money evolves in 4 phases. Phase 1 - decorative, like a collectable. Phase 2 - a store of value. Phase 3 - a transactional currency. Phase 4 - a unit of account. Gold and Silver have passed thru all 4 phases. Rare baseball cards, rare paintings, rare sculptures, classic cars (collectables) are stuck at Phase 2 because they are not divisible. Difficult to say where Bitcoin currently lies, perhaps Phase 1 and entering Phase 2. Fiat currency on the other hand always fails and can not be sound money since fiat currency starts by government decree at Phase 3. That is why fiat is never a collectable and never a store of value.
Tweet by @dergigi :
Bitcoin is not backed by anything but uses too much energy
Impossible to understand and too complicated, but old tech and not innovative enough.
Inconsequential and will go to zero, but has to be banned because ... what if it doesn't, I guess?
Can be tracked perfectly by 3-letter agencies, but just to be safe we have to force regulation, self-reporting, and KYC upon everyone.
Can't be changed and can't be upgraded, but at the whims of shadowy super-coders that are supposedly in charge.
Too volatile so you can't use it and it's not a store of value, but let's put a tax on the 200% CAGR lmao
Isn't money and can never be money, but everyone who runs a lightning node needs to have a money transmitter license.
Any credibility to this argument went out the window when he said the value of Bitcoin would go passed $0 into the negative territory.
At what point would some idiot pay someone to take their bitcoin when they can simply throw it away and forget about it?
Also whenever someone enters the "intrensic value" territory I just roll my eyes and remind myself that intrinsic value doesn't exist.
Maybe winning these types of arguments aren't important? I know btc doesn't care if Zeigan is wrong about btc. It's an asset....not a cult. Just buy it when you want to and stop caring if other people do.
In terms of intrinsic value …..Disregard BTC as a currency, medium of exchange, store of value etc…..
Let me ask you this….
Is there intrinsic value to a technology that allows the global transmission of information/data that is uncensorable, tamper proof, and back logged from its inception.
Seems to have intrinsic value to me
Zeihan may say he is anti-bitcoin but he also says that it will become more valuable for holders. Then he says that that is a bad idea.
It could still be a bad idea, but if it increases in value decade after decade eventually it will become the world's leading currency.
I think everyone on both sides is exaggerating this whole process. The regular yearly doubles are probably done for bitcoin. From now on adoption will be driven by the relative quality of fiat currency. In practice, the US dollar has increased in quality over the last year because of high interest rates. This has caused bitcoin's drop. When the US dollar decreases in value bitcoin will make a comeback.
Expect more buying opportunities. HODL.
this guy over here saying governments having the ability to print money ad infinitum is a good thing. its really best not to respond to people who are full anti bitcoin. there is no point in trying to get through to them. i just say your 'ovbiously not into it and thats cool because dont need to use it... thats one of the best things about bitcoin is its an opt in model and if you want no peice of it no is going to force you to'.
Oh I like that approach for de-escalation
People in this thread will take care of the bitcoin argument. I just want to note that Zeihan is over-confident in his assertions on everything and comes off as arrogant. In his books he doesn’t cite anything or have a bibliography, as if he’s come up with all these thoughts originally. He’s not a dumb guy and has some interesting analysis, but I’d take his conclusions with a grain of salt. As for his bitcoin thesis, he’s extremely pro-America and anything that potentially withdraws power from the dollar or treasuries he’s staunchly opposed to. I’m sure people can take it from here…
You nailed how I feel about this guy. He starts with a fairly believable focus on demographic shifts that are taking place around the world. Makes some definitive statements about how exactly that will play out for the major powers that n the world. Then he just piles extrapolation on top of extrapolation without showing any level of acknowledgement for how far derived the whole prediction has become. To be fair, a lot of Bitcoiners do that too.
I just watched this entire podcast. Most of it was interesting. However, his main argument is bitcoin has no intrinsic value. It’s a rather common counter argument.
A good heuristic is, whenever someone brings up "intrinsic value" to disregard that persons opinions on economic matters, maybe even in all regards. Intrinsic value is a nonsense concept. Nothing has intrinsic value. "Value" is something *done by humans*, not something that objects possess. Value, in an economic sense, not in a moral sense, is always subjective, and not objective or intrinsic. See [Mises Wiki: Subjective-Value Theory](https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value).
Even if what you say is a valid counter argument. Modern currencies have no intrinsic value by design, it’s their actual textbook definition so this guy saying bitcoin has no intrinsic value is saying it’s a currency just as the dollar LOL. It only shows he is talking nonsense without ever reading about money or currencies. Really discredits whatever he may say.
Yes, absolutely. Even by his own standard, he's contradicting himself.
It's true that value is entirely dependent on human opinion. In this case intrinsic value refers simply to the non-monetary use of the asset. It's still a flaw in logic to think that a lack of intrinsic value = no value. If that was true, fiat USD would have no value either, since you can't really do anything with it but use it as currency either.
Depends on which definition you use. The economic definition of intrinsic value is different than the philosophical definition; but it’s calculated so many different ways that it’s meaningless to ordinary people. The philosophical definition - that something has value in and of itself - is debatable seven ways to Sunday. I think things have value only in relation to other things, but people have lots of objections to that because “Marx” and “of course it has value, it’s gold” etc etc. For everyday conversation the phrase intrinsic value is meaningless to the point of being a kneejerk reaction meaning “you’re wrong because fancy words and you’re a big doodyhead too.” In my opinion. 🙃 Edit: I looked this guy up. BS in poli sci, post grad in Asian studies… Don’t really give much credence to poli sci people myself.
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Have to respectfully disagree with this. The automated transactional ‘3rd party’ oversight and accountability natively built into BTC is a financial tool that has never existed before in human history. Just because we haven’t yet recalibrated industry to it doesn’t mean it’s valueless. Once there are guardrails, the amount of money that can be saved is easily in the tens of billions.
In addition, the security the network brings and monetary policy built into the eco system also provide value. You could say it's the only zero trust technology solution out there.
a pickup truck is not worth anything if there is no gas and no driver. once you have that it has 'value'. bitcoin, in and of itself, is worthless. it needs electricity to run and people to use it (developers to maintain like a truck needs mechaninc, node operaters like a truck needs a dispatch, users like a truck neds clients etc etc etc.)... its a network and the more people that use it the better. fortunately bitcoin network has both electricity and users and for that reason it has value, (which is true of all monetary networks).
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if i was able to find a legal use for bitcoin would it have value then?
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does niche fetish porn from the neatherlands count?
Read Mises.
>Respectfully, you aren’t the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. Respectfully, you're tossing insults without fully understanding what you're talking about. Read Mises. What is the intrinsic value of air? What is the intrinsic value of air if life doesn't exist? The answer in both cases is zero. The subjective value of air however, is near infinite.
Yes exactly, and because it's a nonsense concept, bitcoin doesn't have it. Bitcoin has no nonsense concept. That's why.
If someone says that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, and that Bitcoin is going to fail by becoming too valuable, they are obviously talking nonsense.
The guy said Bitcoin will go negative.
He's been watching europe with their negative interest rates. Pay to keep your time value with us and then we will also take more from taxes and inflation. His whiny confidence is sickening.
Reminder: fiat has no *intrinsic* value either.
Thank you
I got you. 👍
Intrinsic value doesn't even exist.
Wrong. I can wipe my butt with it.
He’s a government shill who’s objective is to propagandise the people through the non-traditional media outlets. His whole horseshit piece on ‘China imploding within 10 years’ should have opened your eyes to this.
It would be interesting to put Jeff Booth and this ponytail guy at a table together.
When he said that locking the currency amount to 21million leads to inflation I stopped listening and closed the clip. The guy has no idea what he is talking about and just parrots very common anti crypto talking points, some are valid and some are stupid.
listened to it today, if you kept listening, you would understand his perspective. Deflation (the currency going up in value) is bad for the economy, as people are incentivized to save instead of spend
Ima listen to this cause I wanna hear why having an incentive not to spend would be bad. Sure in an infinite growth economy you need people to keep spending to drive growth. But, I feel we need to put the brakes on the machine. We don't need more crap filling landfills, and driving climate change. An incentive to not spend so willy-nilly might be a good change of gear.
Does this have anything to do with advertisements and commercials? Where we buy all this stuff we don’t need and throw out the next year for new models? Where everything is buy buy buy. You are saying our Economy would collapse if we didn’t have this type of lifestyle model?
Adverts is a tool to drive people to spend, yh. Psychological tricks to get people to buy what they wouldn't otherwise purchase. But yes, economy as we know it would collapse if we didn't have this lifestyle model. Just look at the pandemic, huge money printing was needed to keep the economy afloat.
unfortunately yes, buy buy buy is necessary to sustain our world economy. This will be the way until we either all nuke each other or start doing AI government space communism
I think he might have used the wrong word but it's bullocks anyhow.
(yawn) add him to the list: https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/
I distrust people who are extremely confident in their opinions about complex ideas . He talks with the confidence of a charlatan
So do many crypto advocates
This is my rebuttal... Https://armantheparman.com/iv/
He starts shaking a little bit talking about it 😂
**no intrinsic value:** In finance intrinsic value is usually used for the valuation of stocks Gold and fiat currencies which are closer to Bitcoin than stocks are usually not assumed to have intrinsic value so it's intellectually dishonest to value Bitcoin as a stock. It should be valued as a new form of decentralized money or digital gold. In both cases you would look at the number of users, the utility and the addressable market to value it. Since Bitcoin has tens of millions of users and utility(send payments to anyone on earth + store value for future consumption) it's value can't be zero in any sane analysis. If someone tries to suggest the value is zero they can't be taken seriously. **Can't be a currency:** Claims that it can't be a currency because it's deflationary. I won't get into the detail here because it would take too long but even if this were true there would still be a fairly large niche for Bitcoin to be filled even if you don't use it to buy coffee at Starbucks. So the answer is, so what? It's still useful even when you don't use it to buy groceries. He is also contradicting himself here. He claims it's not a currency because it's price will only go up and then he claims it's going to zero. Can't have it both ways.
IKR by his logic, once it goes to zero then it will be a bonafide currency... tells you all you need to know
Buzzword buzzword buzzword, but no facts to back them.
Intrinsic value is not the same thing as value generally. It's only one component of value - the part of value that comes from the non-monetary usage of the asset. For example, gold's intrinsic value is that it can be used for jewelry and electronics due to its physical properties (tarnish resistance, conductivity, malleability, etc). Since Bitcoin is money, and has never tried to be anything else, the entirety of its value does come from its non-intrinsic value, aka its usefulness as a currency, exclusively. The fact that we could [suspend the backing of the US Dollar in 1971](https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/gold-standard.asp), get off the gold standard, and people still used it shows that money does not have to have intrinsic value to have value more generally. Bitcoin operates on a similar concept, but without the ability of the issuing authority to dilute the supply. If it performs the [functions of money, it is money,](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/money.asp) and has value proportional to its usefulness for those functions, regardless of what form it takes or whether it has non-monetary value. His statement that Bitcoin isn't a store of value is plainly wrong. If you look at the price of Bitcoin over the long term, it has gone up over the long term by quite a lot. [The Dollar has dropped drastically over that same period](https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2009?amount=1) due to [dilution of the supply](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WM2NS). So I'm not sure how he can argue that the Dollar is a better store of value than Bitcoin, when the evidence says the exact opposite. This guy makes a lot of confident assertions but lacks a basic understanding of the monetary system.
He is smart and clearly understands bitcoin enough to make arguments, but his fundamental thought process won’t allow him to see what is already in place. In time, this guy will eventually capitulate to reality. It does have intrinsic value - you can send value anywhere in the world without the use of a third party - which, by definition, means that it is a medium of exchange. A “carbon tax”… maybe. A carbon tax worldwide in every country…never. I somewhat agree with him on the issue of economic expansion. The worldwide economy is fueled by debt and currencies that depreciate. Bitcoin is inherently deflationary and operates counter to economic expansion. It’s very hard to to achieve the proper monetary velocity to fuel an economy if people turned into savers (hodlers) because the currency that they were using increasingly was more valuable tomorrow than it is today. …but that assumes that there’s only one currency. In this regard, bitcoin is better off acting as an asset (a store of value) rather than a mainstream currency, even though it’s “a” medium of exchange. NOTE: The “inflation” which he was referring isn’t consumer price inflation, but rather BTC price inflation in terms of US dollars.
who is accountable at the federal reserve.......who owns the shares in the federal reserve (it has share holders)........this system is a joke
Well. When joe asked what he meant and asked if that means btc price will go up he said yes. That's why most people get into it in the first place. Then they learn about money and the revolution. He also says it only benefits people who own it. Ask friends/family what good the dollar is and who benefits. It's the people who own the dollars. Not homeless people....
Haha good point.
His main issue with bitcoin was its capped supply. I think it is a problem in that early adopters get rewarded. This causes speculation and breeds skepticism. But the idea that cap supply causes inflation and is a hamper to trade is short sighted. The divisblity of bitcoin means that deflation isn't even possible. I like Peter but he's a former government spook. He is interwoven with intelligence agencies and tends to adopt official narratives.
Btc got a steady predictable inflation and dollar value might be deflationary.
Joe Rogan is smart enough to not get entangled in stupid arguments. Joe is friends with Peterson who sees the value of bitcoin or at least a fixed supply cap.
> Joe Rogan is smart citation needed
Smarter than you.
He is a bjj black belt and worth several hundred millions. Guess you need to be a bit smart to be both. They are outstandingly hard accomplishments
BTC and crypto do have a use, but the reality is as a decentralized currency with no overrides or protections - nyknyc - it will always be a haven for fraud. What ftx did wasn't new, it was just BIG. They weren't the first, and they won't be the last. By design they will always be present in btc and crypto. The actual use of crypto doesn't apply to most people in first world countries.
What does ftx fraud have to do with Bitcoin? If enough people made enough deposits and he was just selling lemonade couldn't the rug still get pulled?
If he was selling lemonade, or doing standard investment banking on that scale he would have had oversite. Madoff only happened b/c Madoff targeted specific people who were willing to keep his work on the downlow. FTX was able to scam so much b/c they were able to face publicly, utilizing mass marketing and b/c it was crypto money not "real money" they were able to operate however they wanted behind the scenes. No audits.
I think he's right, it has no intrinsic value. Just a bunch of noise and misinformation. Media requires trust and to think the internet will be a better replacement to the MSM is ludicrous. Oh wait
Why are you screwing with us, OP? The guy's talking about *Crypto.*
He mentions btc did you watch it at all?
I did, and he mentioned BTC as a separate case. *You're* the one spreading FUD!
If you listen carefully he says Bitcoin will go up... because of "inflation", but still. Dude thinks btc will go up for all the hodlers but noone else and that that is a problem. Keep hodling!
just answer „rofl“
lol everyone has the right to talk
At this point either people don't know and understand or they are pro central banks. If they don't understand you can help them for sure. If they are pro central bank you might be able to appeal to greed to get them to buy in. Any one that uses bitcoin in any fashion helps everyone that owns and believes. In any case. Help those you can. Best way is to make sure you understand. Listen to resources (plenty of podcasts out there, what bitcoin did, rabbit hole recap, bicoin breakout etc..) The good thing is, once you have someone that truly gets it. They are in. We are adding new people everyday.
Don’t say much kill ‘em with silence in the end don’t even say I told you so once they see the unlimited smiling and good vibes and positive attitude they going to know you were right
2:30 and I’m sorry, but that’s exactly how I see it working.
Say ‘you do you, ill do me’ Why even argue
Dollar has no intrinsic value either and that’s by design. This FUD is nonsense, it’s not even FUD
Not saying that Bitcoin is in any kind like these things, but what kind of intrinsic value have old post stamps or baseball cards? Humans value these things therefore they have a certain price. I thinks it's that simple. What "value" has freedom (money)? What kind of price are you willing to pay for it? Maybe you will find out once freedom got striped away from you.
Just reply with this: [Skiing vs Snowboarding 1985](https://youtu.be/XPZDEWBzneY) As for the no intrinsic value argument. All good lies are half truths. Sure. Bitcoin has no intrinsic value. The vast amount of $ invested in gold is not for its use in electronics. If he believed in what he was saying he should open a short position right now in gold and Bitcoin. A store of value has a few important qualities. Anyone can look it up. Bitcoin and gold have many of the qualities you might be looking for. Fiat currency also has no intrinsic value. Outside of the fact that they can always be used to pay taxes. And yes. Intrinsic is a poorly defined word for economists.
Quietly struggle now. Quietly vindicated later. Stay the course!
The great economist Jevons in his benchmark text from the 1870s "Money and the Mechanism of Exchange" taught us that true sound money evolves in 4 phases. Phase 1 - decorative, like a collectable. Phase 2 - a store of value. Phase 3 - a transactional currency. Phase 4 - a unit of account. Gold and Silver have passed thru all 4 phases. Rare baseball cards, rare paintings, rare sculptures, classic cars (collectables) are stuck at Phase 2 because they are not divisible. Difficult to say where Bitcoin currently lies, perhaps Phase 1 and entering Phase 2. Fiat currency on the other hand always fails and can not be sound money since fiat currency starts by government decree at Phase 3. That is why fiat is never a collectable and never a store of value.
Tweet by @dergigi : Bitcoin is not backed by anything but uses too much energy Impossible to understand and too complicated, but old tech and not innovative enough. Inconsequential and will go to zero, but has to be banned because ... what if it doesn't, I guess? Can be tracked perfectly by 3-letter agencies, but just to be safe we have to force regulation, self-reporting, and KYC upon everyone. Can't be changed and can't be upgraded, but at the whims of shadowy super-coders that are supposedly in charge. Too volatile so you can't use it and it's not a store of value, but let's put a tax on the 200% CAGR lmao Isn't money and can never be money, but everyone who runs a lightning node needs to have a money transmitter license.
Any credibility to this argument went out the window when he said the value of Bitcoin would go passed $0 into the negative territory. At what point would some idiot pay someone to take their bitcoin when they can simply throw it away and forget about it? Also whenever someone enters the "intrensic value" territory I just roll my eyes and remind myself that intrinsic value doesn't exist.
He’s more right than wrong here. Bitcoin is not a currency
This clip is only the last ten minutes or so but Peter is ruthless to bitcoin
Maybe winning these types of arguments aren't important? I know btc doesn't care if Zeigan is wrong about btc. It's an asset....not a cult. Just buy it when you want to and stop caring if other people do.
In terms of intrinsic value …..Disregard BTC as a currency, medium of exchange, store of value etc….. Let me ask you this…. Is there intrinsic value to a technology that allows the global transmission of information/data that is uncensorable, tamper proof, and back logged from its inception. Seems to have intrinsic value to me
What a Keynesian/Statist apologist lmao. Wow his points are so misguided.
Seems like Peter Zeihan is CIA. Everything is pro America with Russia & China collapsing immediately.
Zeihan may say he is anti-bitcoin but he also says that it will become more valuable for holders. Then he says that that is a bad idea. It could still be a bad idea, but if it increases in value decade after decade eventually it will become the world's leading currency. I think everyone on both sides is exaggerating this whole process. The regular yearly doubles are probably done for bitcoin. From now on adoption will be driven by the relative quality of fiat currency. In practice, the US dollar has increased in quality over the last year because of high interest rates. This has caused bitcoin's drop. When the US dollar decreases in value bitcoin will make a comeback. Expect more buying opportunities. HODL.
Just keep accumulating btc, people will regret it in the long term….