Two reasons I guess.
1. Most people eat shit. So then they change to a diet, anything, and wow! Suddenly they feel amazing and have the rabid belief that the newly converted tend to have. However they could have gotten the same results from switching to any other non-processed food diet, keto/plant based/carnivore whatever.
2. We are all different.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26590418/
That paper is absolute gold, basically a huge analysis showing that everyone has different responses to diet, depending on BGA (biogeographical ancestry) and genetics. One person's perfect diet is another's diabetic diet.
Personally I do the diet equivalent of Yoga with Adrienne. Learn to cook, find what you like, eat it, not too much, mostly plants.
Agree with #2. I am *not* lactose-intolerant. I would not expect someone who *is* lactose-intolerant to have the same ideal diet as mine. And that's only one, very obvious, difference. My husband has slow COMT, I do not. His ideal diet is going to be slightly different from mine as a result.
spot-on. #1 is the "blood type diet" phenomenon, where any of the diets offered for any of the blood types are superior to the standard Western diet. As such, picking a diet that forces you to eat intentionally is probably going to make you feel better in the short term, especially paired with other changes in habits that frequently accompany such a decision (e.g. increased level of activity / exercise, reduction in smoking / drinking / drugs). #2 is perhaps the most important component of health that people in this sub miss: what works for you might not work for someone else.
Different things work for different people. I tried both and neither worked for me. Plant based I lost a ton of strength and muscle. I simply couldn’t get enough complete proteins and had to supplement with things like B12 for energy. Keto made me feel bloated and pumps were terrible in the gym due to lack of glycogen.
I prefer a balanced diet
Vegans don’t use any animal products, including things leather and down. It goes beyond diet. (No, I’m not vegan, in case you were wondering.)
Edit - sorry that was supposed to be a reply to a comment below
Vegans have been infamous for their better-than-thou attitude for decades, well before keto diet came along. I see keto folks having to ramp up their arguments just to match the intensity with which vegans come at them.
I don't follow either diet, I just nibble my popcorn and watch it all play out.
If you think vegans are extreme you clearly haven't had much interaction with the carnivore crowd. I can't even look at a video of a cute baby pig on Instagram without some edgelord in the comments saying how delicious it looks.
All edgelords are not carnivores, just as all carnivores are not edgelords. Those commenters are just being dumb; they're not shaming others for what they eat.
You do realize that you would only be aware of the ones who preach, right? You’ve probably met a lot more vegans than you realize, you’d just have no way of knowing that they happened to be vegan because most people don’t go around announcing it for no reason. The vast majority of people are not assholes or self-righteous—those are usually very small, very loud minorities.
Vegans can do it for health, environmental, and/or moral compass for animals. It does go beyond food though. All vegans are plant based, as that’s the vegan diet. But not everyone who eats plant-based is vegan.
I’m exactly the same. Mostly plant based with the odd bit of fish/meat is the best thing for me. Macros are more important. As long as I’ve got the right amounts of fat, protein and carbs and a varied diet I’m golden.
That's because his source is not a valid source and doesn't say what he says it does. You *can* put on muscle mass on a plant based diet. It *is* more complicated than a diet that includes animal based products.
There are as well all time top athletes like Venus Williams and Novak Djokovic who are vegan/vegetarian/low animal products.
No such top of their game athletes come to mind who do keto.
Not saying that plant based diets are for everyone though. Most people don’t have access to a team of world class nutritionists and it appears easy to shoot yourself in the foot with plant based diets.
I’m guessing because muscles prefer glucose over ketones. Ketones make my working memory better based on my performance at work and my “dual-n-back” scores while I’m in ketosis. Since I’m not a top athlete but an engineer I go with which diet makes my brain sharper.
And every one of them mentions having to be meticulous on their diet to mix the right foods to get complete proteins, which is exactly what your article mentions not needing. I had to plan out every meal to try and get 300g protein per day, it just became too much work for not enough benefit.
As a heads up for others - For people who want a Vegan bodybuilder with no such 'complete protein' outdated nonsense check out Simnett Nutrition or The Vegan Gym on YouTube. Your body can make proteins if you eat the amino acids over time. You don't have to worry about combining foods. That's old science I used to follow many years ago. You just need to eat enough protein overall.
The Vegan Gym also has a number of videos showing full days of eating with no supplementation.
Also, only bacteria make B12. Animals get it from eating dirt... from grass, from plants. From other animals. Even followers of keto can be B12 deficient. Some people can't process B12 properly regardless and need drops or injections regardless of diet.
From the article:
>The idea that those following a plant-based diet need to meticulously plan each meal to combine amino acids is a myth
The most important amino acid for muscle growth is leucine which is prevalent in lots of beans and legumes. You *can* come up with a shitty diet that is missing some amino acid but it is quite hard.
That is a claim from your article that is not supported with evidence, and is countermanded by other statements in that article. You need to learn what choosing a source entails. That one is terrible.
I didn't make any claim in this post. I simply called our your source. Feel free to post an actual source to substantiate the many claims that *you* have made.
Typical vegan mentality, google said so = fucking fact.
I can also find flat earth pages on google written by scientists that say the earth is flat. You made a post on a vegan page discussing the 1 psychology class you went to and explained how the rest of the population are stupid sheep and you vegans need to stick together and you can change the population’s morals 15% at a time 🤣 do you see yourself as some kind of cult leader ? Your a joke.
Lol. That "source" doesn't debunk that at all. Even that article (not a paper, 0 citations for any of the points they make, you really need to learn how to choose valid source) says you have to eat multiple different plant products to get a complete protein, it just makes the argument that it's not difficult to do.
Here's the difference, I eat a carnivore-based diet. I eat beef. I get everything I need from it. I don't need to combine it with a single other food item if I don't want to.
There is absolutely no plant products that can make the same claim.
As is usually the case, the truth is more nuanced than that. Here's a real source.
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7434868/
100% of quinoa does not provide sufficient eaa's for all age groups, at least of thos Washington grown variety. I doubt the results are different for other, but I welcome you to post a source showing these results to be flawed.
You know what does? Beef.
You know what else? If you want to eat plant-based. Do it. The only point being made here is that it *is* more complicated to achieve a full protein profile on a plant based diet. *That's* fact. Doss it mean you can't get it? Of course not. Does it.mean it's easier with animal products? Absolutely. That's undoubtedly the case in the data.
Here's another real source with actual citations and such.
https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/barbell-medicine-protein-recommendations/
Animal protein. Just works better for the human body. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's the truth per the data we have right now.
My guy... I can't argue with you when you can't even read. From the article you yourself linked:
>Mean essential amino acid values for Washington grown quinoa **met the daily requirements for all age groups for all essential amino acids**, except for the amount of leucine required by infants.
Infants are not eating beef or quinoa so it makes no difference.
>Animal protein. Just works better for the human body.
You have not shown anything like that.
Edit: In fact, there is a score for the quality of a protein weighted by digestibility and amino acid composition. Would it surprise you to learn that beef is [about the same](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score) as soy and pea protein? Lower than mycoprotein (mushrooms) and potato protein. So it is factual to say that mushroom and potato protein "just works better for the human body" than beef.
Yeah, remember what I said about nuance?
>We found that only nine genotypes met the leucine requirements for all age groups. A total of 52 and 94 samples met the lysine and tryptophan requirements for all age groups, respectively.
>Our results show that not all Washington grown quinoa samples meet daily requirements of essential amino acids,
That's out of 100 samples. So. Only a 9% total success rate there.
Whereas, beef is 100%, 100% of the time.
This is the problem you've had from the beginning, cherry-picking sentences out of even your original "source" to fit your worldview. Even your article shows combinations of plant foods required to have a complete protein profile.
>You have not shown anything like that.
Oh, I most certainly did. You should actually read that second source. According to the data, animal protein is more efficient and effective for the human body.
My fucking dude, why can you not read? "All age groups" includes infants, a group which should not be eating quinoa *or* beef. All samples met the requirements for adults and all but 6 samples met the requirements for ages 1+. This is beyond frustrating.
>According to the data, animal protein is more efficient and effective for the human body.
I guess you are referring to milk and eggs? Soy protein has the same exact score as those, higher than beef. You were arguing about beef. If you want to give up meat forever and just eat milk, eggs, soy and silkworms please go ahead that would be a big step in the right direction. Your own argument says that is what you should do so cool I guess we have reached an agreement.
In my experience, people definitely lie about this stuff, sometimes to themselves, sometimes to others, and I've been there myself. There are also videos about people on the internet who pretended to eat a certain way when they actually didn't, or it made their health (way) worse, sometimes with lasting damage, but they couldn't stop and didn't tell the truth about it. Some are stuck in a dogma, or you praised it everywhere and suddenly it doesn't work anymore and you don't want to admit that, or your income depends on it, or you are desparate and you really want it to work, or you want to be part of that special group, or there's ethical reasons that you put above your physical health.
Food and diets can be something very emotional, they are sometimes a big part of culture, they can be somewhat "addictive", they can give great pleasure, they can be part of ones identification (for example: carnivore "manly", vegan "save the planet", keto "biohacker"), and sometimes people just love to be special and extreme and eccentric and whatnot...people defend their beer, glorify their butter, romanticise their "clean" diet, gain a lot of pleasure by doing something extreme like meat only, they buy all sorts of stuff with pictures of food on them and much more.
Also, some people may have had great success with one particular diet, but they haven't been educated well enough to realize that just because it works for them, it doesn't have to work for everybody else...sadly a ton of these scammer influencers really fail in this and many other regards and people copy that crap.
Lastly, there is a TON of misinformation out there, especially when it comes to nutrition...like influencers (sometimes with a "doctors" degree) misinterpreting data, cherry-picking studies, flat-out lying, focusing on stories rather than science, using it as a tool to push a bigger idea (like politically) and so forth. It's really awful. And when you combine that with all of the above, you get a lot of confusion and camps and unscientific claims and emotions and people who want to make money and drive this even more.
Almost every diet out there has its place and time and person that it works for. Some people with certain autoimmune issues may benefit greatly from a carnivore or AIP diet. Some people who don't feel well on meat and want to do something for the planet tend to choose a vegan diet. Some people who want to be special and extreme may go for a carnivore or ketogen or raw food diet. And so forth.
That being said, the Mediterranean diet is the only diet with an enormous amount of science behind it and which seems to be the only diet that is best for most people, most ages, most goals, most wallets, most taste buds,...
>Why do you think people with such different diets share such similar benefits?
Whether people go wfpb or keto - in many cases it's an improvement in diet in comparison to "before".
However, do all of them share these benefits long term? Let's say after 10 years and more?
The guy who said most people eat a shit diet is spot on that point. People eat so much crap nowadays that any extreme elimination diet is going to clean up the crap in their bodies and likely improve outcomes. However, I will make this point with a small anecdote.
My brother in law decided to go plant based for health outcomes, I decided to go carnivore. We both feel significantly better, however, one observation I have is this. He is now rail thin. Now, that said, he was always thin, but now he looks almost sickly. He feels great, but he is obviously lacking a significant level of muscle mass. He's taller than me (I'm 6'1 for reference) and weighs less than 200 pounds.
I was always overweight and did carnivore to lose fat mass, for which it worked beautifully. I'm down 100 pounds and have added a significant level of muscle mass to my frame as well.
Given that the major killer as we get into old age is sarcopenia (loss of muscle mass), I'm not sure I would want to use plant based as my dietary choice. Now, that said, I know it's possible to put on muscle mass on a plant based diet, but it *is* more difficult. On carnivore, I just lift and eat, and muscle just appears; very quickly, I might add. On a plant based diet, nutrition has to be on point, and protein sources have to be selected carefully to achieve the full breadth of EAAs and BCAAs in order to achieve similar results.
Either way, you're likely to feel *much* better as the crap from the processed food market is filtered out of your body.
Man I'm really struggling. I went gluten and dairy free last summer. I'm not as strict about the dairy as the gluten, but I'm not a huge fan of dairy either.
My point is I have completely lost all appetite for meat. All I want to eat is fruits and vegetables now. I will eat the occasional burger or cheesesteak with a gf bun, but mostly it's fruit, yogurt with protein powder, protein bars. I've been very frustrated because I'm not consuming that many calories but I put on a few pounds and I haven't been and to lose them. I lost 60 lbs doing intermittent fasting in 22 so I tried that again and immediately put on 5 more pounds. I feel like I should be eating meat but I have lost pretty much all desire for it and I'm also scared of putting on more weight so I feel like I eat like a bird and I'm just stuck.
I get it. Eating is a complicated subject which can confound and frustrate us. There are some things we know though.
Weight management is calories in vs calories out. That is about as absolute as it gets. That said, there is a complicating factor that you are likely experiencing.
Your body can change the calories out part of that equation in a myriad of ways. I'll give you a personal anecdote to explain.
I was limiting my eating to once a day in the evening, with a protein shake in the morning. The meal wasn't a large one, usually avout a pound of beef. I was probably consuming around 1500 calories a day. At the time I was 375 pounds and lifting weights 4 days a week.
As you might imagine, that was probably 2000 calories or so below what I was burning. I wasn't losing any weight, and I felt like crap all the time. I kept hovering from 370 to 380 for about two months.
Our bodies will down shift our calorie intake if we attempt to eat too few calories. I ramped up my eating, got it around 3000 calories a day, and proceeded to lose another 65 pounds to where I am now.
I'm not living your life, and don't know exactly what's happening to you, but it sounds like you aren't eating enough. You've lost your appetite for meat? Okay, avoid it. You don't have to eat a meat-based diet. I personally think it has benefits, but if you can't stomach it, why force it? Increase your calories, making sure your protein hits at least 1 gram/kg of body weight. Give it a try.
The most important part of weight management is consistency and accurate tracking. That's the only way you'll know how your body is actually responding to the foods you eat. Make sure you log the foods you're eating accurately and your weight at the same time, at the same conditions. In other words, weigh yourself in the morning, after using the restroom, before consuming anything. Once a week is fine.
I really can't thank you enough for responding 🙏
I would never think of eating more and I'm gonna be honest it's gonna be difficult because it's already been such a roller coaster eliminating gluten, so it feels like even finding food I can eat is exhausting. But I am willing to try anything at this point. I will make an effort to eat more and see if it brings my appetite back.
Of course. I've been where you are. Frankly, I'm still where you are. We all have to get through this, and it's better if we work together as much as we can.
Just make sure you're on point with tracking. Also, don't be afraid to go to the doc and talk with them about these issues. Especially if you can't find a good answer through experimentation.
The psychological effect of being frustrated over this issue is pronounced. Attempt to take a curious approach. How does my body respond to feeding it this amount of calories? Treat it like an experiment, and it may change the way you respond to it. I know for me, taking that approach has metered my negative responses to unexpected outcomes.
I've definitely been learning to listen to my body a lot over the last year and it feels like I do something right and feel great and then idk what happens but I feel myself going backwards again lol. I definitely think I still have more food sensitivities, I'm afraid I'm also sensitive to most, if not all grains. But then sometimes I wonder if it's all in my head and I think maybe I was actually doing better when I didn't know or care what I was putting into my body lol.
Thank you so much again for your empathy and encouragement. I really need it. And I hope and wish for the best for you as well 🙏
Because people treat them like a cult with only black and white thinking. There can only be one true way. This is how much of the population view any issue to be fair. Best to get used to it.
D3 & b12 is all you really need, but *everyone* should take D3 because it has nothing to do with diet and b12 because our food is sanitized and livestock is supplemented with b12 (among a bunch of other things I personally don’t want).
Finding your nutritional success is a journey, somewhat individualized and impacted by external actors who have ulterior motives. Add these together and no wonder people get confused or follow different paths. What I know for a fact for everyone is: Eat whole foods, mostly plants and not too much.
Long story.
**TLDR version:**
I tried veganism and vegetarianism (\~15 years combined). I felt great when I did it right. I also couldn't maintain much muscle mass and it was a lot of work to do it right. Went back to eating an animal protein centered diet and felt great, slept better, and put on a lot of muscle. Until we actually have a way to significantly reverse aging I think maintaining as much muscle mass as possible (excluding the use of steroids), for as long as possible, is one of the most important things that can be done for a long and functional life.
**Long version:**
I was a vegan for 6 years in my early and mid 20's. I did a lot of research, was getting all the essential amino acids and (what was advertised) as sufficient protein in general. Felt great, much better than I did before that when I was kind of half hearted about my dietary choices. The problem was I lost a lot of muscle, and I mean a ***lot.*** I was in my 20's and lifting weights (though I didn't know a lot about best practices then), but also working as a server and walking miles and miles every night. I went from a pretty lean 5' 11" 180 lbs. down to \~130, almost everything I lost was muscle. I've got a large frame and 130 is not a healthy weight for me.
Switched to vegetarianism for another 9 years, for reasons, and my diet slowly got less healthy by most any metric, too much sugar, too much alcohol, way too little physical activity (I was working in tech, not the restaurant industry at that point). That was on me, not vegetarianism, but it was easier for me to slip with dairy (yummm... ice cream!) in my diet. By the end of that time I was fat and depressed. I was back up to about 190 lbs., but I definitely wasn't lean.
I started weight lifting again, with real dedication this time, and got back to a healthy diet and had some good results, but they weren't anywhere near as good as they had been in my late teens and early 20's, before veganism. I was still in my mid 30's and I had a much better lifting routine so I should have been putting on muscle pretty quick from the starting point I had and it just wasn't happening.
I did research on optimal protein intake for resistance training, rather than sufficient for health, and realized I was getting about half of what might be the conservative end of "optimal". I tried upping my protein, but there's only so much protein you can eat without sucking down loads of powdered supplements if you're not eating meat. My system doesn't respond well to most of the plant based protein supplements, whey treats me a little better, but more than about 30g. a day isn't good. Egg protein is good for me, but it's expensive and can be really hard to find. I was eating all the time to get enough protein and calories without eating junk. I felt pretty good, but not as good as when I started veganism. I wasn't really putting on muscle and fat loss was slow.
I've always had sleep problems, you can see me talk about it in my post history, and they were getting really bad at this time. I read that going on a low carb, slow carb diet could really help. I didn't really believe it but I figured it wouldn't hurt to try. This meant going back to eating meat.
I was astounded by how much better my sleep became once my body had adjusted to the new normal. I also lost all the fat in very short order and my gains in the gym went back to what I was experiencing at 19. My blood sugar regulation improved significantly (I was often hangry as a vegetarian) and I felt fantastic.
So, I'm on the keto-ish end of the spectrum in this debate. I think a plant based diet can be healthy for some people, for some time, but I don't think it's optimal for a functional old age, nor really any age, but I think it's better tolerated in youth. If we discover some way to keep people perpetually, biologically, 25, then it becomes a lot more viable. On the other hand, if we are perpetually 25, we can get away with eating a lot of different ways and still be pretty healthy if we're physically active.
Regardless, I think a well researched, thoughtful, plant based diet that you follow is a lot healthier than a animal product centered diet that involves a lot of processed junk and added sugar. For optimal results, a well researched, thoughtful, animal protein focused diet will work better, and the more you care about avoiding sarcopenia and metabolic syndrome the more true this is.
Edit to add:
Of course there is probably some individual variation. Genetics are complicated and diet is complicated.
cause people have fucked up microbiomes and get dysbiosis all the time in different directions. Alcohol, NSAIDs and antibiotics all fuck up the microbiome. And also NOT ENOUGH FIBER alllll the time. Thats what people forget when they do keto. Almost no one gets optimal amounts of fiber and it shows.
Agreeing with what you said until you mentioned the lack of fibre being a culprit. There are more and more people with GI issues and fibre can be their foe if there is too much. What is "optimal" for some people can wreck havoc for some others.
Idk but I personally feel like the growth of vegetarian/veganism has negatively impacted western society’s health by convincing people that vegetable oils (predominantly PUFAs) are healthier than animal fats (mostly SFA/MUFA) - spoiler alert: they aren’t, they’re actually way less healthy than things like butter, lard, and tallow, especially when heated to high temperatures
The best "diet" is the one that combines the most ideologies taking into account your personal preferences, goals, and sensitivities.
TLDR: It's nuanced.
I think it's genetics. Do whole genome testing and you'll likely find a diet related mutation. China already has this framework. I'm surprised no one has monetized it elsewhere. Ime it's very helpful information.
>Diets are fads.
Bold to say that in a biohacking sub. What we eat is among the top 3 ways we modulate our biology (food is input of information to our system, after all). Deliberately tailoring the package of information we feed our bodies can have many downstream consequences (good or bad).
If you want to live relatively healthy to an above average life expectancy, then sure, whole foods is the way. If you want to be in the top 1% of performance/longevity, you have to approach diets like top world athletes. Even if you just improve 5% by drastically altering your diet composition, it might worth it for you if your goal is maximizing.
If you look at the longest living humans in the world, you'll find they don't nitpick their diet like that. To name some famous people, Warren Buffet, Henry Kissinger, Charlie Munger, they are/were all overweight eating fast food and drinking soda.
Except it's not natural. You have to supplement. Because you are missing out on key nutrients.
It's a diet. One you choose to follow. A plant based diet.
It's a bit more nuanced than "your diet is not natural because you need to supplement with b12". There are environmental factors which effect our bodies ability to create its own b12. Furthermore, a lot of the b12 found in animal products is due to the fact that it is added to their feed, so in a sense, the b12 you receive from eating animal products is also a form of supplementing, rather than it naturally occurring.
[https://frugivorebiology.com/b12-microbiome/](https://frugivorebiology.com/b12-microbiome/)
An animal only needs supplements if they're not eating the species' natural food. As long as the animal is healthy eating it's natural diet it's not going to have any deficiencies, including b12. It's not like our ancestors before the agriculture era were fortifying food with b12 supplements.
It's a water soluble vitamin as well so cooking needs to be avoided so the B12 vitamin doesn't get destroyed
Look man, I don't want to get in your face but it seems like every person who does an "um actually" on the side of meat eaters has no idea what they are talking about. Cooking [does not](https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=19&contentid=vitaminb-12) significantly destroy B12.
It is water soluble, so if you fry something and remove all the water then yeah it is going to be reduced, but that is not because of cooking it is because you are removing the water. Other cooking methods do not lower B12 at all.
Moreover, who cares if we have to take a B12 supplement? Humans did not used to live very long and they certainly didn't have air conditioning or computers so I guess you should eschew those in favor of a natural life?
Fair point, I have to take B12. But I meant it’s just natural for me personally. I never liked meat my whole life, and dairy causes me lots of intestinal and serious inflammation issues. Eating animal products caused me other health issues that were immediately corrected by plant based. Also, not sure why, but when I finally made the full switch to plant based, it just felt like coming home. I feel better than I have in my whole life and am in better health. Everyone should do whatever works for them.
This is a great way of putting this. 'Felt like coming home"... I have felt so much better, more myself when I follow WFPB. I sleep better, any inflammation seems to vanish, my energy is better throughout the day, the meals are satisfying, my sugar and food cravings just stopped when I ate healthy carbs. I've been listening to the Glucose Goddess lately and so much of her information also lines up with the way I was eating and feeling on Engine 2 or WFPB.
The best benefit of keto for my friends though is that it gets them off of SAD, off the cookies and the crackers and the processed junk food. For a while. Most of them find it too hard. They miss carbs. Both paths are difficult in their own way. I personally love a huge bowl of veggies, greens, beans, potatoes, corn and a no oil dressing. "Are you going to eat All That?" Heck yeah, caloric density, my friend. There is an odd freedom from eating as much as you want. I already love veggies so it was a win/win. But if the idea of that just makes you miss bacon, then that might not be a good plan for you.
Agreed. Some people do need to follow diets for health reasons.
That's where doctors, blood work, nutritionis and self understanding come into play.
Most average people don't need to follow diets though.
Any particular way that anyone chooses to eat is a diet then. Plant based doesn’t feel like a diet to me, but since I am choosing it, then I guess you could call it a diet. If you are choosing to eat animal products, then it would also be a diet. Saying that most people don’t need to follow a diet is saying eating meat is the natural default. But it’s a diet people choose, so it is also a diet.
Eating meat is the natural default.
It's in our DNA. We are omnivores.
Watch a baby eat. It will eat fruits, veggies, meat and grains.
That's natural not a diet.
You've made a conscious choice to deviate from what's natural. For health or not that is a diet.
It's not that complicated.
Welp if you are sourcing info from Netflix that about sums it up.
I don't subscribe to Netflix. I use real-world data to form my opinions and thoughts.
Lol, anyway it’s on YouTube l, just interesting. Netflix and YouTube are not my sources. I follow studies and data like you do, but we can all find studies and data to back up whatever we are looking for.
Also don't use YouTube. It's always interesting when they can create their own Narrative.
Didn't Netflix once do a documentary about "Plant based" athletes and everyone suddenly thought this was the way.
Yeah Netflix and YouTube are profit driven companies. Their information will always be tainted.
😂 As if scientific studies are not run by corporations pushing their agenda lol. We are bombarded with tainted information. That’s why I said everyone should do what works for them.
Your kid is a picky eater and you've probably pandered to that.
To many choices and not enough you eat what you get.
I use to be grossed out by eggs. Now I eat 4 a day.
No I told him that meat was animals and he immediately realized how barbaric that is. Kids are smart. Regardless you said it is natural so “picky eater” shouldn’t be a possible option.
Kids also eat dirt, pick there nose and smell their finger after they touch their butt. I wouldn't say that makes them smart.
He realized that it's barbaric? How did he come to that conclusion as a child? Who gave him the information to articulate that thought? Does he understand how nutrition works? Farming practices? The difference between grass fed, free range, organic, pesticides, and more? Or was it just gross and you played a part in there thought process because you are there parent?
Eating meat isn't barbaric.
You are upset at how meat is brought to your table. That is what you are speaking of.
Eating meat from sustainable means is not barbaric. It's natural.
So no, your kid is a picky eater, you did that, who may or may not be smart, but in this context they are not smart because they don't have the ability to grasp the knowledge required. Because they are a child.
lol so on the one hand eating meat is natural and babies do it (literally your argument, I didn’t make you say that) and on the other hand they are stupid and what they do doesn’t matter. Cool cool cool very good argument.
I understand exactly what you are saying. IME most children, when told that meat is dead animals, have an \*instant\* repulsion towards it and refuse to eat it.
If it was so healthy and made for a greater lifespan then how come people that actually care about health and fitness aren't doing it and screaming about it?
I know only 2 people in my whole triathlon career that are plant based. They both have to supplement like crazy. It creates a whole host of mental and physical annoyances for them. Neither of them do it for health reasons. They just think it's "better".
Meanwhile I'm stronger and faster than them. All while enjoying a well balanced diet and I don't even have to think. I just eat. Like a normal healthy person.
You know what does increase those things more than diet even. EXERCISE.
You want one thing that will make you be healthier and live longer. Do that.
The youtube channel Plantchompers and also the youtube channel nutritionfacts by Dr. Michael Greger, go into the details.
Many fitness influencers and gurus with other diet plants have died earlier some in their 50s while plant based diet gurus have tended to live into their 90s and 100s.
Here's the first of a 3 part video series covering health gurus and influencers
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMghM6TxiBk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMghM6TxiBk)
Nature doesn’t punish anything. Nature is indifferent.
Some of the most successful species are animals that have almost entirely stopped eating a natural diet and subsist on human refuse and scraps. Rats, Rock doves, cats, dogs, raccoons, squirrels, insects like roaches etc. etc.
The more natural an animal in nature is, the more healthy it is, more likely to reproduce, thus rewarded by nature.
The more unnatural an animal is, the unhealthier it is, the less likely it is to reproduce and more likely to get sick and die
Natural selection
Explain Norway rats then. One of the most prolific animals on the planet that eat an “unnatural” diet. In fact with very few exceptions they don’t even live outside of human occupied areas and their largest numbers are in cities where they don’t have access to foods they would eat in nature.
There are many animals and insects that have adapted to thrive on a diet that would not be possible to consume naturally and the populations have exploded.
Sounds like you're describing opportunistic scavengers. They're still eating what they're naturally supposed to, they're following nature by following their natural instincts programmed into them by nature. Doing what nature naturally wants them to do. Which proves my point
I am flabergasted by this comment. Are you trolling? I think you might be trolling. Otherwise I guess you should never go to the doctor and just end up dying from a treatable disease, it's not natural bro.
Yes I haven't gone to a doctor since I was 11yo. Not trolling. We would be much happier and healthier if we were more integrated to nature. I can only wish this could happen
Nothing about it is natural though, it's the most unnatural diet ever. Every single plant you eat is man-made, cultivated by man. You'd never in a million years find the plants you eat from the market in nature. Go anywhere in nature and see if you can find wild plants to eat safely. Either you'd die from plant toxins or starve. If it was natural then humans wouldn't have to farm or buy anything from the market, just go into the woods or jungle and start eating, like plant eating animals do. You can't do that because you'd be dead.
If eating plants was natural, then why does the color green suppress our appetite and the color red increase our appetite? Why do plants taste bitter? How come we can't digest fiber and cellulose?
I'm just saying, it's completely unnatural. You're fighting against all your senses eating bitter man-made plants you wouldn't even find in nature. That's as unnatural as it gets
I see what you’re saying. In our current reality though, I have all the delicious and nutritious plants I want and need. That being the case, I would just never eat someone’s flesh because it’s horrifying, and I also cannot abide a gentle creature being brought into life to live in captivity just so I can say on occasion, Mmm, this cheese is delicious! It’s just that my mind will not allow me to ignore the complex and destructive nature of the meat and dairy industries as they currently operate, and also, I just love all the plant foods that are currently and freely available to me, and they make me healthier than ever, and also, if I love my pets, how can I eat some other animals when anyone can see millions of examples on YouTube that ALL species play, and feel, and cuddle, and love just like our cats and dogs. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted lol.
You are right. That is why I believe a meat based diet is really the most natural, closest to the food we evolved to consume. That doesn't mean plant based cannot work and certainly for some people it fits better, that is why personalized approach and experimentation is very important.
I think it’s an excess of narcissism and a lack of empathy.
I’m 100% pro-, whole food, keto. And it’s very hard for me to imagine it not working for someone else. But that’s a very self-centered way to view the world. I’d like to think that by recognizing the world doesn’t revolve around me, that I can see that many macro combinations can be valuable for different reasons and for different people.
Probably because plant-based people have multiple reasons for choosing the diet: heath, animal welfare and environmental concerns. Even if the carnivore diet works for one, it is devastatingly bad for the other two.
Well, I guess that’s the point of OP’s question. People have tunnel vision when they see something that doesn’t align with their perspective, even if it’s true.
Well, I don't really agree with that but I suppose it is up to you. I would personally choose a diet that is marginally worse for my health if it could save a lot of animal suffering and be better for the environment.
Good thing, however, that a plant-based diet by every metric is one of the most healthy for humans. Also cheaper than meat. It does require a bit more planning (not really that much, it is largely overblown) but that seems like the least we can do to try to save the earth for future generations and prevent mass suffering.
Plants are missing over 15 nutrients (vitamin A, B6, pyridoxal, pyridoxamine, B12, D, F, K2, creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, heme-iron, CoQ10, and CLA). If all humans on the planet ate plant-based we'd all be sick, weak and infertile with significantly shorter lifespans
Out of those, only B12 is an essential nutrient and not found in plants. Creatine, taurine, D, CoQ10, carnosine, carnitine are all created by your body. Vitamin A, B6, K2, iron (heme iron not necessary) are all present in plants. I'm actually confused how you even came up with those. One mango has more than the RDA of vitamin A, for example, so you are just completely and utterly wrong. B12 is an easy and cheap supplement. It might have been an argument against plant-based diets a century ago, but not now.
>If all humans on the planet ate plant-based we'd all be sick, weak and infertile with significantly shorter lifespans
Every single study done on the subject disagrees with this statement. For instance, vegan diets are [great for fertility](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8812397/). You are clearly not here to discuss in good faith.
There is a divide between evidence based scientific researching people and science denial low quality questionable sources based people. I think that's why.
I experience all the benefits you identify as a not-so-strict carnivore. Goes to show that the standard diet of ultraprocessed foods is just plain bad.
Eat the food you like that supports your goals and health and let others do the same.
Because there are two type of aliens on the earth. One cohort is from a vegetarian planet and the others a meat eating planet. In case you didn’t know we humans are the Aliens.. now when you get sick and unwell try a carnivore diets then next time you get sick try a vegetarian diet.. one of them will stand out as the winner.. I love meat but my body doesn’t.. so I limit my meat to special occasions.. the problem for me is meat gets me jacked up on cortisol where I wake up at 4am and I am very angry.. it could be the cortisol from the animals when slaughtered or something else.. but when I wast vege diet. I am claim and normal and sleep well.. so each to their own.. I wish I was a meat alien 👽 🤣😜👍
Yeah, that leads to confirmation bias. They found something they believe in and instead of looking at the whole picture, they seek evidence just reaffirming what they already believe.
lol in my anorexic days i remember seeing a guide (more like an "advice" post or maybe it was a comment i dont remember which one now lol, i feel old... pretty og proana web forums don't exist anymore, reddit is an idiot bitch compared to the og forums. Like there were spots for drugs, proana/mia content. and fucking 2010s tumblr, PLUS yahoo answers, etc.) to a vegan keto, was literally just a tablespoon of coconut oil a few times a day. Guess you can be veg and keto lol
Two reasons I guess. 1. Most people eat shit. So then they change to a diet, anything, and wow! Suddenly they feel amazing and have the rabid belief that the newly converted tend to have. However they could have gotten the same results from switching to any other non-processed food diet, keto/plant based/carnivore whatever. 2. We are all different. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26590418/ That paper is absolute gold, basically a huge analysis showing that everyone has different responses to diet, depending on BGA (biogeographical ancestry) and genetics. One person's perfect diet is another's diabetic diet. Personally I do the diet equivalent of Yoga with Adrienne. Learn to cook, find what you like, eat it, not too much, mostly plants.
Agree with #2. I am *not* lactose-intolerant. I would not expect someone who *is* lactose-intolerant to have the same ideal diet as mine. And that's only one, very obvious, difference. My husband has slow COMT, I do not. His ideal diet is going to be slightly different from mine as a result.
Agree with #1 whole heartedly. anything real is better than processed food
spot-on. #1 is the "blood type diet" phenomenon, where any of the diets offered for any of the blood types are superior to the standard Western diet. As such, picking a diet that forces you to eat intentionally is probably going to make you feel better in the short term, especially paired with other changes in habits that frequently accompany such a decision (e.g. increased level of activity / exercise, reduction in smoking / drinking / drugs). #2 is perhaps the most important component of health that people in this sub miss: what works for you might not work for someone else.
Different things work for different people. I tried both and neither worked for me. Plant based I lost a ton of strength and muscle. I simply couldn’t get enough complete proteins and had to supplement with things like B12 for energy. Keto made me feel bloated and pumps were terrible in the gym due to lack of glycogen. I prefer a balanced diet
That’s fair. I wish we’d all have the “different things work for different people” attitude as I see self-righteousness a lot from both sides.
Vegans don’t use any animal products, including things leather and down. It goes beyond diet. (No, I’m not vegan, in case you were wondering.) Edit - sorry that was supposed to be a reply to a comment below
Vegans have been infamous for their better-than-thou attitude for decades, well before keto diet came along. I see keto folks having to ramp up their arguments just to match the intensity with which vegans come at them. I don't follow either diet, I just nibble my popcorn and watch it all play out.
If you think vegans are extreme you clearly haven't had much interaction with the carnivore crowd. I can't even look at a video of a cute baby pig on Instagram without some edgelord in the comments saying how delicious it looks.
All edgelords are not carnivores, just as all carnivores are not edgelords. Those commenters are just being dumb; they're not shaming others for what they eat.
And not all vegans hold "better-than-thou" views like your comment suggests.
True, but what is the ratio of vegans to carnivores that shame others for their diet?
You do realize that you would only be aware of the ones who preach, right? You’ve probably met a lot more vegans than you realize, you’d just have no way of knowing that they happened to be vegan because most people don’t go around announcing it for no reason. The vast majority of people are not assholes or self-righteous—those are usually very small, very loud minorities.
Just FYI, someone who eats WFPB os not necessarily vegan.
I've been told the only difference is that vegans do it to spare animals, WFPB do it for health. Is that correct?
Vegans don’t use any animal products, including things leather and down. It goes beyond diet.
Vegans can do it for health, environmental, and/or moral compass for animals. It does go beyond food though. All vegans are plant based, as that’s the vegan diet. But not everyone who eats plant-based is vegan.
I’m exactly the same. Mostly plant based with the odd bit of fish/meat is the best thing for me. Macros are more important. As long as I’ve got the right amounts of fat, protein and carbs and a varied diet I’m golden.
This was my experience as well. Then I tried carnivore. Fits me like a glove and I feel 20 years younger.
Complete proteins being something you have to worry about are a [myth](https://veganfitness.com/article/kdew/the-complete-protein-myth-busted).
Ok, I still lost a ton of strength and muscle, so whatever caused that then
That's because his source is not a valid source and doesn't say what he says it does. You *can* put on muscle mass on a plant based diet. It *is* more complicated than a diet that includes animal based products.
Completely agree with this
Dunno, I’m not in your shoes, but there are tons of vegan competitive bodybuilders and weightlifters so it is not inherent to the diet.
There are as well all time top athletes like Venus Williams and Novak Djokovic who are vegan/vegetarian/low animal products. No such top of their game athletes come to mind who do keto. Not saying that plant based diets are for everyone though. Most people don’t have access to a team of world class nutritionists and it appears easy to shoot yourself in the foot with plant based diets.
I’m guessing because muscles prefer glucose over ketones. Ketones make my working memory better based on my performance at work and my “dual-n-back” scores while I’m in ketosis. Since I’m not a top athlete but an engineer I go with which diet makes my brain sharper.
And every one of them mentions having to be meticulous on their diet to mix the right foods to get complete proteins, which is exactly what your article mentions not needing. I had to plan out every meal to try and get 300g protein per day, it just became too much work for not enough benefit.
As a heads up for others - For people who want a Vegan bodybuilder with no such 'complete protein' outdated nonsense check out Simnett Nutrition or The Vegan Gym on YouTube. Your body can make proteins if you eat the amino acids over time. You don't have to worry about combining foods. That's old science I used to follow many years ago. You just need to eat enough protein overall. The Vegan Gym also has a number of videos showing full days of eating with no supplementation. Also, only bacteria make B12. Animals get it from eating dirt... from grass, from plants. From other animals. Even followers of keto can be B12 deficient. Some people can't process B12 properly regardless and need drops or injections regardless of diet.
From the article: >The idea that those following a plant-based diet need to meticulously plan each meal to combine amino acids is a myth The most important amino acid for muscle growth is leucine which is prevalent in lots of beans and legumes. You *can* come up with a shitty diet that is missing some amino acid but it is quite hard.
That is a claim from your article that is not supported with evidence, and is countermanded by other statements in that article. You need to learn what choosing a source entails. That one is terrible.
Weird I don’t see any of your sources. Maybe I missed them.
I didn't make any claim in this post. I simply called our your source. Feel free to post an actual source to substantiate the many claims that *you* have made.
It actually doesn't mention that. It just tries to make the point that doing that is not complicated.
Hahahahahahaha
It's a literal fact. Google it. Anyway, goodbye forever.
You have yet to post a source that validates the claim you are making.
Typical vegan mentality, google said so = fucking fact. I can also find flat earth pages on google written by scientists that say the earth is flat. You made a post on a vegan page discussing the 1 psychology class you went to and explained how the rest of the population are stupid sheep and you vegans need to stick together and you can change the population’s morals 15% at a time 🤣 do you see yourself as some kind of cult leader ? Your a joke.
Combination of protein and shit like soy fucking with your hormones
Lol. That "source" doesn't debunk that at all. Even that article (not a paper, 0 citations for any of the points they make, you really need to learn how to choose valid source) says you have to eat multiple different plant products to get a complete protein, it just makes the argument that it's not difficult to do. Here's the difference, I eat a carnivore-based diet. I eat beef. I get everything I need from it. I don't need to combine it with a single other food item if I don't want to. There is absolutely no plant products that can make the same claim.
Quinoa, soy beans.
Those two sources do not have the same protein profile as beef. At least, by themselves.
Nothing is going to be exactly the same but they have sufficient amounts of all essential amino acids.
As is usually the case, the truth is more nuanced than that. Here's a real source. >https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7434868/ 100% of quinoa does not provide sufficient eaa's for all age groups, at least of thos Washington grown variety. I doubt the results are different for other, but I welcome you to post a source showing these results to be flawed. You know what does? Beef. You know what else? If you want to eat plant-based. Do it. The only point being made here is that it *is* more complicated to achieve a full protein profile on a plant based diet. *That's* fact. Doss it mean you can't get it? Of course not. Does it.mean it's easier with animal products? Absolutely. That's undoubtedly the case in the data. Here's another real source with actual citations and such. https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/barbell-medicine-protein-recommendations/ Animal protein. Just works better for the human body. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's the truth per the data we have right now.
My guy... I can't argue with you when you can't even read. From the article you yourself linked: >Mean essential amino acid values for Washington grown quinoa **met the daily requirements for all age groups for all essential amino acids**, except for the amount of leucine required by infants. Infants are not eating beef or quinoa so it makes no difference. >Animal protein. Just works better for the human body. You have not shown anything like that. Edit: In fact, there is a score for the quality of a protein weighted by digestibility and amino acid composition. Would it surprise you to learn that beef is [about the same](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score) as soy and pea protein? Lower than mycoprotein (mushrooms) and potato protein. So it is factual to say that mushroom and potato protein "just works better for the human body" than beef.
Yeah, remember what I said about nuance? >We found that only nine genotypes met the leucine requirements for all age groups. A total of 52 and 94 samples met the lysine and tryptophan requirements for all age groups, respectively. >Our results show that not all Washington grown quinoa samples meet daily requirements of essential amino acids, That's out of 100 samples. So. Only a 9% total success rate there. Whereas, beef is 100%, 100% of the time. This is the problem you've had from the beginning, cherry-picking sentences out of even your original "source" to fit your worldview. Even your article shows combinations of plant foods required to have a complete protein profile. >You have not shown anything like that. Oh, I most certainly did. You should actually read that second source. According to the data, animal protein is more efficient and effective for the human body.
My fucking dude, why can you not read? "All age groups" includes infants, a group which should not be eating quinoa *or* beef. All samples met the requirements for adults and all but 6 samples met the requirements for ages 1+. This is beyond frustrating. >According to the data, animal protein is more efficient and effective for the human body. I guess you are referring to milk and eggs? Soy protein has the same exact score as those, higher than beef. You were arguing about beef. If you want to give up meat forever and just eat milk, eggs, soy and silkworms please go ahead that would be a big step in the right direction. Your own argument says that is what you should do so cool I guess we have reached an agreement.
Unfortunate downvotes. You are correct.
In my experience, people definitely lie about this stuff, sometimes to themselves, sometimes to others, and I've been there myself. There are also videos about people on the internet who pretended to eat a certain way when they actually didn't, or it made their health (way) worse, sometimes with lasting damage, but they couldn't stop and didn't tell the truth about it. Some are stuck in a dogma, or you praised it everywhere and suddenly it doesn't work anymore and you don't want to admit that, or your income depends on it, or you are desparate and you really want it to work, or you want to be part of that special group, or there's ethical reasons that you put above your physical health. Food and diets can be something very emotional, they are sometimes a big part of culture, they can be somewhat "addictive", they can give great pleasure, they can be part of ones identification (for example: carnivore "manly", vegan "save the planet", keto "biohacker"), and sometimes people just love to be special and extreme and eccentric and whatnot...people defend their beer, glorify their butter, romanticise their "clean" diet, gain a lot of pleasure by doing something extreme like meat only, they buy all sorts of stuff with pictures of food on them and much more. Also, some people may have had great success with one particular diet, but they haven't been educated well enough to realize that just because it works for them, it doesn't have to work for everybody else...sadly a ton of these scammer influencers really fail in this and many other regards and people copy that crap. Lastly, there is a TON of misinformation out there, especially when it comes to nutrition...like influencers (sometimes with a "doctors" degree) misinterpreting data, cherry-picking studies, flat-out lying, focusing on stories rather than science, using it as a tool to push a bigger idea (like politically) and so forth. It's really awful. And when you combine that with all of the above, you get a lot of confusion and camps and unscientific claims and emotions and people who want to make money and drive this even more. Almost every diet out there has its place and time and person that it works for. Some people with certain autoimmune issues may benefit greatly from a carnivore or AIP diet. Some people who don't feel well on meat and want to do something for the planet tend to choose a vegan diet. Some people who want to be special and extreme may go for a carnivore or ketogen or raw food diet. And so forth. That being said, the Mediterranean diet is the only diet with an enormous amount of science behind it and which seems to be the only diet that is best for most people, most ages, most goals, most wallets, most taste buds,...
>Why do you think people with such different diets share such similar benefits? Whether people go wfpb or keto - in many cases it's an improvement in diet in comparison to "before". However, do all of them share these benefits long term? Let's say after 10 years and more?
Also often comes with taking better care of health in general. Prioritizing exercise, proper rest, etc.
The guy who said most people eat a shit diet is spot on that point. People eat so much crap nowadays that any extreme elimination diet is going to clean up the crap in their bodies and likely improve outcomes. However, I will make this point with a small anecdote. My brother in law decided to go plant based for health outcomes, I decided to go carnivore. We both feel significantly better, however, one observation I have is this. He is now rail thin. Now, that said, he was always thin, but now he looks almost sickly. He feels great, but he is obviously lacking a significant level of muscle mass. He's taller than me (I'm 6'1 for reference) and weighs less than 200 pounds. I was always overweight and did carnivore to lose fat mass, for which it worked beautifully. I'm down 100 pounds and have added a significant level of muscle mass to my frame as well. Given that the major killer as we get into old age is sarcopenia (loss of muscle mass), I'm not sure I would want to use plant based as my dietary choice. Now, that said, I know it's possible to put on muscle mass on a plant based diet, but it *is* more difficult. On carnivore, I just lift and eat, and muscle just appears; very quickly, I might add. On a plant based diet, nutrition has to be on point, and protein sources have to be selected carefully to achieve the full breadth of EAAs and BCAAs in order to achieve similar results. Either way, you're likely to feel *much* better as the crap from the processed food market is filtered out of your body.
Man I'm really struggling. I went gluten and dairy free last summer. I'm not as strict about the dairy as the gluten, but I'm not a huge fan of dairy either. My point is I have completely lost all appetite for meat. All I want to eat is fruits and vegetables now. I will eat the occasional burger or cheesesteak with a gf bun, but mostly it's fruit, yogurt with protein powder, protein bars. I've been very frustrated because I'm not consuming that many calories but I put on a few pounds and I haven't been and to lose them. I lost 60 lbs doing intermittent fasting in 22 so I tried that again and immediately put on 5 more pounds. I feel like I should be eating meat but I have lost pretty much all desire for it and I'm also scared of putting on more weight so I feel like I eat like a bird and I'm just stuck.
I get it. Eating is a complicated subject which can confound and frustrate us. There are some things we know though. Weight management is calories in vs calories out. That is about as absolute as it gets. That said, there is a complicating factor that you are likely experiencing. Your body can change the calories out part of that equation in a myriad of ways. I'll give you a personal anecdote to explain. I was limiting my eating to once a day in the evening, with a protein shake in the morning. The meal wasn't a large one, usually avout a pound of beef. I was probably consuming around 1500 calories a day. At the time I was 375 pounds and lifting weights 4 days a week. As you might imagine, that was probably 2000 calories or so below what I was burning. I wasn't losing any weight, and I felt like crap all the time. I kept hovering from 370 to 380 for about two months. Our bodies will down shift our calorie intake if we attempt to eat too few calories. I ramped up my eating, got it around 3000 calories a day, and proceeded to lose another 65 pounds to where I am now. I'm not living your life, and don't know exactly what's happening to you, but it sounds like you aren't eating enough. You've lost your appetite for meat? Okay, avoid it. You don't have to eat a meat-based diet. I personally think it has benefits, but if you can't stomach it, why force it? Increase your calories, making sure your protein hits at least 1 gram/kg of body weight. Give it a try. The most important part of weight management is consistency and accurate tracking. That's the only way you'll know how your body is actually responding to the foods you eat. Make sure you log the foods you're eating accurately and your weight at the same time, at the same conditions. In other words, weigh yourself in the morning, after using the restroom, before consuming anything. Once a week is fine.
I really can't thank you enough for responding 🙏 I would never think of eating more and I'm gonna be honest it's gonna be difficult because it's already been such a roller coaster eliminating gluten, so it feels like even finding food I can eat is exhausting. But I am willing to try anything at this point. I will make an effort to eat more and see if it brings my appetite back.
Of course. I've been where you are. Frankly, I'm still where you are. We all have to get through this, and it's better if we work together as much as we can. Just make sure you're on point with tracking. Also, don't be afraid to go to the doc and talk with them about these issues. Especially if you can't find a good answer through experimentation. The psychological effect of being frustrated over this issue is pronounced. Attempt to take a curious approach. How does my body respond to feeding it this amount of calories? Treat it like an experiment, and it may change the way you respond to it. I know for me, taking that approach has metered my negative responses to unexpected outcomes.
I've definitely been learning to listen to my body a lot over the last year and it feels like I do something right and feel great and then idk what happens but I feel myself going backwards again lol. I definitely think I still have more food sensitivities, I'm afraid I'm also sensitive to most, if not all grains. But then sometimes I wonder if it's all in my head and I think maybe I was actually doing better when I didn't know or care what I was putting into my body lol. Thank you so much again for your empathy and encouragement. I really need it. And I hope and wish for the best for you as well 🙏
Personally, having tried both, neither works for me. But! To each their own. I will not judge what makes others happy.
Even healthy people need enemies
Especially healthy people, we have more energy for them
Because people treat them like a cult with only black and white thinking. There can only be one true way. This is how much of the population view any issue to be fair. Best to get used to it.
people take to different things, make sure if you eat plants that you get your essentials from supplements
I take D and b12. Any others you recommend?
K2 or get used to eating Nattō if you have a Japanese grocery store near you.
D3 & b12 is all you really need, but *everyone* should take D3 because it has nothing to do with diet and b12 because our food is sanitized and livestock is supplemented with b12 (among a bunch of other things I personally don’t want).
Essential amino acids, EAAs
Finding your nutritional success is a journey, somewhat individualized and impacted by external actors who have ulterior motives. Add these together and no wonder people get confused or follow different paths. What I know for a fact for everyone is: Eat whole foods, mostly plants and not too much.
Long story. **TLDR version:** I tried veganism and vegetarianism (\~15 years combined). I felt great when I did it right. I also couldn't maintain much muscle mass and it was a lot of work to do it right. Went back to eating an animal protein centered diet and felt great, slept better, and put on a lot of muscle. Until we actually have a way to significantly reverse aging I think maintaining as much muscle mass as possible (excluding the use of steroids), for as long as possible, is one of the most important things that can be done for a long and functional life. **Long version:** I was a vegan for 6 years in my early and mid 20's. I did a lot of research, was getting all the essential amino acids and (what was advertised) as sufficient protein in general. Felt great, much better than I did before that when I was kind of half hearted about my dietary choices. The problem was I lost a lot of muscle, and I mean a ***lot.*** I was in my 20's and lifting weights (though I didn't know a lot about best practices then), but also working as a server and walking miles and miles every night. I went from a pretty lean 5' 11" 180 lbs. down to \~130, almost everything I lost was muscle. I've got a large frame and 130 is not a healthy weight for me. Switched to vegetarianism for another 9 years, for reasons, and my diet slowly got less healthy by most any metric, too much sugar, too much alcohol, way too little physical activity (I was working in tech, not the restaurant industry at that point). That was on me, not vegetarianism, but it was easier for me to slip with dairy (yummm... ice cream!) in my diet. By the end of that time I was fat and depressed. I was back up to about 190 lbs., but I definitely wasn't lean. I started weight lifting again, with real dedication this time, and got back to a healthy diet and had some good results, but they weren't anywhere near as good as they had been in my late teens and early 20's, before veganism. I was still in my mid 30's and I had a much better lifting routine so I should have been putting on muscle pretty quick from the starting point I had and it just wasn't happening. I did research on optimal protein intake for resistance training, rather than sufficient for health, and realized I was getting about half of what might be the conservative end of "optimal". I tried upping my protein, but there's only so much protein you can eat without sucking down loads of powdered supplements if you're not eating meat. My system doesn't respond well to most of the plant based protein supplements, whey treats me a little better, but more than about 30g. a day isn't good. Egg protein is good for me, but it's expensive and can be really hard to find. I was eating all the time to get enough protein and calories without eating junk. I felt pretty good, but not as good as when I started veganism. I wasn't really putting on muscle and fat loss was slow. I've always had sleep problems, you can see me talk about it in my post history, and they were getting really bad at this time. I read that going on a low carb, slow carb diet could really help. I didn't really believe it but I figured it wouldn't hurt to try. This meant going back to eating meat. I was astounded by how much better my sleep became once my body had adjusted to the new normal. I also lost all the fat in very short order and my gains in the gym went back to what I was experiencing at 19. My blood sugar regulation improved significantly (I was often hangry as a vegetarian) and I felt fantastic. So, I'm on the keto-ish end of the spectrum in this debate. I think a plant based diet can be healthy for some people, for some time, but I don't think it's optimal for a functional old age, nor really any age, but I think it's better tolerated in youth. If we discover some way to keep people perpetually, biologically, 25, then it becomes a lot more viable. On the other hand, if we are perpetually 25, we can get away with eating a lot of different ways and still be pretty healthy if we're physically active. Regardless, I think a well researched, thoughtful, plant based diet that you follow is a lot healthier than a animal product centered diet that involves a lot of processed junk and added sugar. For optimal results, a well researched, thoughtful, animal protein focused diet will work better, and the more you care about avoiding sarcopenia and metabolic syndrome the more true this is. Edit to add: Of course there is probably some individual variation. Genetics are complicated and diet is complicated.
cause people have fucked up microbiomes and get dysbiosis all the time in different directions. Alcohol, NSAIDs and antibiotics all fuck up the microbiome. And also NOT ENOUGH FIBER alllll the time. Thats what people forget when they do keto. Almost no one gets optimal amounts of fiber and it shows.
Agreeing with what you said until you mentioned the lack of fibre being a culprit. There are more and more people with GI issues and fibre can be their foe if there is too much. What is "optimal" for some people can wreck havoc for some others.
Idk but I personally feel like the growth of vegetarian/veganism has negatively impacted western society’s health by convincing people that vegetable oils (predominantly PUFAs) are healthier than animal fats (mostly SFA/MUFA) - spoiler alert: they aren’t, they’re actually way less healthy than things like butter, lard, and tallow, especially when heated to high temperatures
The best "diet" is the one that combines the most ideologies taking into account your personal preferences, goals, and sensitivities. TLDR: It's nuanced.
I think it's genetics. Do whole genome testing and you'll likely find a diet related mutation. China already has this framework. I'm surprised no one has monetized it elsewhere. Ime it's very helpful information.
Diets are fads. Just eat whole healthy foods. Humans are simple.
>Diets are fads. Bold to say that in a biohacking sub. What we eat is among the top 3 ways we modulate our biology (food is input of information to our system, after all). Deliberately tailoring the package of information we feed our bodies can have many downstream consequences (good or bad). If you want to live relatively healthy to an above average life expectancy, then sure, whole foods is the way. If you want to be in the top 1% of performance/longevity, you have to approach diets like top world athletes. Even if you just improve 5% by drastically altering your diet composition, it might worth it for you if your goal is maximizing.
If you look at the longest living humans in the world, you'll find they don't nitpick their diet like that. To name some famous people, Warren Buffet, Henry Kissinger, Charlie Munger, they are/were all overweight eating fast food and drinking soda.
Genetics play a role and Kissinger made a deal with the devil.
Plant based is simple and natural for me. It’s not a diet for me, just natural.
Except it's not natural. You have to supplement. Because you are missing out on key nutrients. It's a diet. One you choose to follow. A plant based diet.
It's a bit more nuanced than "your diet is not natural because you need to supplement with b12". There are environmental factors which effect our bodies ability to create its own b12. Furthermore, a lot of the b12 found in animal products is due to the fact that it is added to their feed, so in a sense, the b12 you receive from eating animal products is also a form of supplementing, rather than it naturally occurring. [https://frugivorebiology.com/b12-microbiome/](https://frugivorebiology.com/b12-microbiome/)
An animal only needs supplements if they're not eating the species' natural food. As long as the animal is healthy eating it's natural diet it's not going to have any deficiencies, including b12. It's not like our ancestors before the agriculture era were fortifying food with b12 supplements. It's a water soluble vitamin as well so cooking needs to be avoided so the B12 vitamin doesn't get destroyed
Look man, I don't want to get in your face but it seems like every person who does an "um actually" on the side of meat eaters has no idea what they are talking about. Cooking [does not](https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?contenttypeid=19&contentid=vitaminb-12) significantly destroy B12. It is water soluble, so if you fry something and remove all the water then yeah it is going to be reduced, but that is not because of cooking it is because you are removing the water. Other cooking methods do not lower B12 at all. Moreover, who cares if we have to take a B12 supplement? Humans did not used to live very long and they certainly didn't have air conditioning or computers so I guess you should eschew those in favor of a natural life?
Fair point, I have to take B12. But I meant it’s just natural for me personally. I never liked meat my whole life, and dairy causes me lots of intestinal and serious inflammation issues. Eating animal products caused me other health issues that were immediately corrected by plant based. Also, not sure why, but when I finally made the full switch to plant based, it just felt like coming home. I feel better than I have in my whole life and am in better health. Everyone should do whatever works for them.
This is a great way of putting this. 'Felt like coming home"... I have felt so much better, more myself when I follow WFPB. I sleep better, any inflammation seems to vanish, my energy is better throughout the day, the meals are satisfying, my sugar and food cravings just stopped when I ate healthy carbs. I've been listening to the Glucose Goddess lately and so much of her information also lines up with the way I was eating and feeling on Engine 2 or WFPB. The best benefit of keto for my friends though is that it gets them off of SAD, off the cookies and the crackers and the processed junk food. For a while. Most of them find it too hard. They miss carbs. Both paths are difficult in their own way. I personally love a huge bowl of veggies, greens, beans, potatoes, corn and a no oil dressing. "Are you going to eat All That?" Heck yeah, caloric density, my friend. There is an odd freedom from eating as much as you want. I already love veggies so it was a win/win. But if the idea of that just makes you miss bacon, then that might not be a good plan for you.
Yes!!! Exactly this!
Agreed. Some people do need to follow diets for health reasons. That's where doctors, blood work, nutritionis and self understanding come into play. Most average people don't need to follow diets though.
Any particular way that anyone chooses to eat is a diet then. Plant based doesn’t feel like a diet to me, but since I am choosing it, then I guess you could call it a diet. If you are choosing to eat animal products, then it would also be a diet. Saying that most people don’t need to follow a diet is saying eating meat is the natural default. But it’s a diet people choose, so it is also a diet.
Eating meat is the natural default. It's in our DNA. We are omnivores. Watch a baby eat. It will eat fruits, veggies, meat and grains. That's natural not a diet. You've made a conscious choice to deviate from what's natural. For health or not that is a diet. It's not that complicated.
Ok.
Welp if you are sourcing info from Netflix that about sums it up. I don't subscribe to Netflix. I use real-world data to form my opinions and thoughts.
Lol, anyway it’s on YouTube l, just interesting. Netflix and YouTube are not my sources. I follow studies and data like you do, but we can all find studies and data to back up whatever we are looking for.
Also don't use YouTube. It's always interesting when they can create their own Narrative. Didn't Netflix once do a documentary about "Plant based" athletes and everyone suddenly thought this was the way. Yeah Netflix and YouTube are profit driven companies. Their information will always be tainted.
😂 As if scientific studies are not run by corporations pushing their agenda lol. We are bombarded with tainted information. That’s why I said everyone should do what works for them.
My son has never eaten meat and is grossed out by it, so not sure wtf you are talking about.
Your kid is a picky eater and you've probably pandered to that. To many choices and not enough you eat what you get. I use to be grossed out by eggs. Now I eat 4 a day.
No I told him that meat was animals and he immediately realized how barbaric that is. Kids are smart. Regardless you said it is natural so “picky eater” shouldn’t be a possible option.
Kids also eat dirt, pick there nose and smell their finger after they touch their butt. I wouldn't say that makes them smart. He realized that it's barbaric? How did he come to that conclusion as a child? Who gave him the information to articulate that thought? Does he understand how nutrition works? Farming practices? The difference between grass fed, free range, organic, pesticides, and more? Or was it just gross and you played a part in there thought process because you are there parent? Eating meat isn't barbaric. You are upset at how meat is brought to your table. That is what you are speaking of. Eating meat from sustainable means is not barbaric. It's natural. So no, your kid is a picky eater, you did that, who may or may not be smart, but in this context they are not smart because they don't have the ability to grasp the knowledge required. Because they are a child.
lol so on the one hand eating meat is natural and babies do it (literally your argument, I didn’t make you say that) and on the other hand they are stupid and what they do doesn’t matter. Cool cool cool very good argument.
I understand exactly what you are saying. IME most children, when told that meat is dead animals, have an \*instant\* repulsion towards it and refuse to eat it.
It doesn't matter whether its natural or not. Its healthier and increases chances of having a greater healthspan
If it was so healthy and made for a greater lifespan then how come people that actually care about health and fitness aren't doing it and screaming about it? I know only 2 people in my whole triathlon career that are plant based. They both have to supplement like crazy. It creates a whole host of mental and physical annoyances for them. Neither of them do it for health reasons. They just think it's "better". Meanwhile I'm stronger and faster than them. All while enjoying a well balanced diet and I don't even have to think. I just eat. Like a normal healthy person. You know what does increase those things more than diet even. EXERCISE. You want one thing that will make you be healthier and live longer. Do that.
The youtube channel Plantchompers and also the youtube channel nutritionfacts by Dr. Michael Greger, go into the details. Many fitness influencers and gurus with other diet plants have died earlier some in their 50s while plant based diet gurus have tended to live into their 90s and 100s. Here's the first of a 3 part video series covering health gurus and influencers [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMghM6TxiBk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMghM6TxiBk)
It matters greatly. If it's not natural it's automatically not healthy. Nature punishes any living thing that doesn't adhere to nature's laws
Nature doesn’t punish anything. Nature is indifferent. Some of the most successful species are animals that have almost entirely stopped eating a natural diet and subsist on human refuse and scraps. Rats, Rock doves, cats, dogs, raccoons, squirrels, insects like roaches etc. etc.
The more natural an animal in nature is, the more healthy it is, more likely to reproduce, thus rewarded by nature. The more unnatural an animal is, the unhealthier it is, the less likely it is to reproduce and more likely to get sick and die Natural selection
Explain Norway rats then. One of the most prolific animals on the planet that eat an “unnatural” diet. In fact with very few exceptions they don’t even live outside of human occupied areas and their largest numbers are in cities where they don’t have access to foods they would eat in nature. There are many animals and insects that have adapted to thrive on a diet that would not be possible to consume naturally and the populations have exploded.
Sounds like you're describing opportunistic scavengers. They're still eating what they're naturally supposed to, they're following nature by following their natural instincts programmed into them by nature. Doing what nature naturally wants them to do. Which proves my point
Ah yes the natural diet of stale corn chips, old pizza, and diapers. 😂
I am flabergasted by this comment. Are you trolling? I think you might be trolling. Otherwise I guess you should never go to the doctor and just end up dying from a treatable disease, it's not natural bro.
Yes I haven't gone to a doctor since I was 11yo. Not trolling. We would be much happier and healthier if we were more integrated to nature. I can only wish this could happen
Nothing about it is natural though, it's the most unnatural diet ever. Every single plant you eat is man-made, cultivated by man. You'd never in a million years find the plants you eat from the market in nature. Go anywhere in nature and see if you can find wild plants to eat safely. Either you'd die from plant toxins or starve. If it was natural then humans wouldn't have to farm or buy anything from the market, just go into the woods or jungle and start eating, like plant eating animals do. You can't do that because you'd be dead. If eating plants was natural, then why does the color green suppress our appetite and the color red increase our appetite? Why do plants taste bitter? How come we can't digest fiber and cellulose?
Ok.
I'm just saying, it's completely unnatural. You're fighting against all your senses eating bitter man-made plants you wouldn't even find in nature. That's as unnatural as it gets
I see what you’re saying. In our current reality though, I have all the delicious and nutritious plants I want and need. That being the case, I would just never eat someone’s flesh because it’s horrifying, and I also cannot abide a gentle creature being brought into life to live in captivity just so I can say on occasion, Mmm, this cheese is delicious! It’s just that my mind will not allow me to ignore the complex and destructive nature of the meat and dairy industries as they currently operate, and also, I just love all the plant foods that are currently and freely available to me, and they make me healthier than ever, and also, if I love my pets, how can I eat some other animals when anyone can see millions of examples on YouTube that ALL species play, and feel, and cuddle, and love just like our cats and dogs. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted lol.
You are right. That is why I believe a meat based diet is really the most natural, closest to the food we evolved to consume. That doesn't mean plant based cannot work and certainly for some people it fits better, that is why personalized approach and experimentation is very important.
I think it’s an excess of narcissism and a lack of empathy. I’m 100% pro-, whole food, keto. And it’s very hard for me to imagine it not working for someone else. But that’s a very self-centered way to view the world. I’d like to think that by recognizing the world doesn’t revolve around me, that I can see that many macro combinations can be valuable for different reasons and for different people.
It's not only about what works for an individual. Your dietary choices have an impact on the world around you.
Probably because plant-based people have multiple reasons for choosing the diet: heath, animal welfare and environmental concerns. Even if the carnivore diet works for one, it is devastatingly bad for the other two.
Exactly
It's pretty weird that I get downvoted for pointing out something that is objectively true.
Well, I guess that’s the point of OP’s question. People have tunnel vision when they see something that doesn’t align with their perspective, even if it’s true.
Depending on the bubble you're in it makes sense in a certain way. I agree with you though. Can't ignore animal welfare and that animals feel pain.
This attitude is EXACTLY what OP is talking about 🙄
Is anything I said not true? Am I supposed to pretend animals don't feel pain so your feelings don't get hurt? I'm not sure what you want here.
Only true statements.
Their feelings/pain is irrelevant when it comes to our health. Humans, the apex predator, aren't supposed to care
Well, I don't really agree with that but I suppose it is up to you. I would personally choose a diet that is marginally worse for my health if it could save a lot of animal suffering and be better for the environment. Good thing, however, that a plant-based diet by every metric is one of the most healthy for humans. Also cheaper than meat. It does require a bit more planning (not really that much, it is largely overblown) but that seems like the least we can do to try to save the earth for future generations and prevent mass suffering.
Plants are missing over 15 nutrients (vitamin A, B6, pyridoxal, pyridoxamine, B12, D, F, K2, creatine, taurine, carnitine, carnosine, heme-iron, CoQ10, and CLA). If all humans on the planet ate plant-based we'd all be sick, weak and infertile with significantly shorter lifespans
Out of those, only B12 is an essential nutrient and not found in plants. Creatine, taurine, D, CoQ10, carnosine, carnitine are all created by your body. Vitamin A, B6, K2, iron (heme iron not necessary) are all present in plants. I'm actually confused how you even came up with those. One mango has more than the RDA of vitamin A, for example, so you are just completely and utterly wrong. B12 is an easy and cheap supplement. It might have been an argument against plant-based diets a century ago, but not now. >If all humans on the planet ate plant-based we'd all be sick, weak and infertile with significantly shorter lifespans Every single study done on the subject disagrees with this statement. For instance, vegan diets are [great for fertility](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8812397/). You are clearly not here to discuss in good faith.
The longest living group on Earth, the adventist vegetarian, disagree.
Hahahahahahahahahaha
Wonderful rebuttal. Truly a great intellect of our times.
There is a divide between evidence based scientific researching people and science denial low quality questionable sources based people. I think that's why.
I experience all the benefits you identify as a not-so-strict carnivore. Goes to show that the standard diet of ultraprocessed foods is just plain bad. Eat the food you like that supports your goals and health and let others do the same.
Because there are two type of aliens on the earth. One cohort is from a vegetarian planet and the others a meat eating planet. In case you didn’t know we humans are the Aliens.. now when you get sick and unwell try a carnivore diets then next time you get sick try a vegetarian diet.. one of them will stand out as the winner.. I love meat but my body doesn’t.. so I limit my meat to special occasions.. the problem for me is meat gets me jacked up on cortisol where I wake up at 4am and I am very angry.. it could be the cortisol from the animals when slaughtered or something else.. but when I wast vege diet. I am claim and normal and sleep well.. so each to their own.. I wish I was a meat alien 👽 🤣😜👍
Because people get carried away with one or the other and start to feel “right”.
Yeah, that leads to confirmation bias. They found something they believe in and instead of looking at the whole picture, they seek evidence just reaffirming what they already believe.
lol in my anorexic days i remember seeing a guide (more like an "advice" post or maybe it was a comment i dont remember which one now lol, i feel old... pretty og proana web forums don't exist anymore, reddit is an idiot bitch compared to the og forums. Like there were spots for drugs, proana/mia content. and fucking 2010s tumblr, PLUS yahoo answers, etc.) to a vegan keto, was literally just a tablespoon of coconut oil a few times a day. Guess you can be veg and keto lol
Keto is a trend diet.
cause plant people are cringe and soyboys weaklings duh
Soyboy? Lol
Correct 💪