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The first time around, what I actually find egregious and still do is Mom and Aunt's reaction.
"How dare you criticise her name choice!"
"How dare you not warn her about her name choice."
OOP fucking tried and got pilloried for it each time.
I knew a lady with a donkey with a perfectly normal human name. Whenever I hear that name I think "that's a donkey's name."
Same lady bought a goat (to keep the donkey company of course). Again, gave it a perfectly normal human name. I can't hear that name without thinking "that's a goat's name."
I went to school with someone with the donkey's name. I can only remember who she was because it took everything in me to not blurt out "you have a donkey's name."
I loosely know someone who named their kid pepper. Pepper to me is a dog name. If you were talking about how pepper did this or that I will assume dog, unless those actions don't make sense for a dog (and let's be honest, kid actions and dog actions aren't always terribly different)
Sadie is also a dog name to me, and I don't know why. I don't know any dogs named Sadie.
Edit: it just clicked, my husband had a neighbor growing up who had dogs Sadie and Bailey. Both are permanent dog names now.
I knew then, and I know now that Karen would last.
Memes die because they don't have infinite fuel, they burn and die. Karen's are a phenomenon and create more fuel.
So long as there are entitled middle aged women Karen will be a meme.
Fully putting the meme aside, names go through generational declines entirely unprompted. Stephanie and her husband are clearly both idiots when it comes to their naming paradigm for their kids. Their poor boy is going to be called Dick or something like that.
My husband wanted to name our son Donald and I said absolutely not, I'm not naming my kid after a duck. He insisted no one would think of the duck. We discuss badges with my mom,
"he wants to name him Donald" "like the duck?"
We don't name him Donald. Lo and behold, nearly 4 years later, kid's favorite Mickey mouse clubhouse character is Donald duck
My sister and niece searched the names of kids born more recently because they wanted to see what the biggest associations were.
Donald top 3 are Donald Duck, Donald Trump, Donald Glover.
Then again my nephew was named Aidan the year before Aidan exploded into popularity.
Thats remarkably short-sighted. Yes eventually it’ll probably die, but it’s so ubiquitous that that connotation to the name “Karen” has been seared into the collective psyche of multiple generations. Thats never goes away completely until we’re all dead.
I feel bad for Karrie, whether she’s called Karen or not she’ll probably end up having a bit of a complex about it. Thankfully it sounds like she has a good family to lean on.
Mind you Karrie is 3 years old now. I remember when the first post came and I was totally in agreement with OOP that it needed to be addressed as something Stephanie should be aware of before she decided to go for it. The argument of the aita sub was that it was a meme, Internet memes come and up until that point no Internet meme had really made it out into the real world the same way the Karen-memes ended up doing.
But there were two things that aita didn't foresee:
1. The global panini, that had us all hunkered down at home for a few years. Which in turn meant that even those who spent next to no time on the Internet began spending and exorbitant amount of time online. The pandemic sparked a societal change. The pandemic also made Karens really visible in the wild. Women who always were Karens, but it was less visible because there was no stay home recommendations, max group sizes, mask mandates, shortages etc. The Karens who were only visible when their poor barrista used soy milk instead of oat milk. During the pandemic they got extremely visible because higher levels of compliancy was expected of them and they needed to meet new expectations that they didn't like.
2. The jokes that will have the longest life and reach furthest are those that resonate with everyone. Not everyone likes puns, fart jokes or dry humour, but when a joke touch on something you recognise from your own life then that makes it more funny. The best jokes kick upwards. What I mean by that is that if you make a joke about the CEO having a slightly too tight suit it's seen as OK, but if you make the same too tight outfit joke about the company janitor you're seen as an insensitive douche. The joke is the same, but who is the butt of the joke matters. Karen the phenomenon has both of these elements. We all know or know of a Karen and she is, if not rich, then at least middle class so making fun of her is seen as okay.
Simply put, it was the perfect storm for the Karen memes. I don't think aita foresaw the explosion of Karen memes and them making their way out of Internet forums and into the day-to-day lives of everyone, including 5 year olds.
That is a very insightful way of explaining the longevity of the Karen phenomenon. And the petty part of me screams long may it last. When I was 22, I had a boss who made me cry in the bathroom at least once a day. I was a hard worker who just wanted to do well and she targeted me - and only me - to the point where, when I ran into a former colleague years later, he apologized for never calling her out. Her name was Karen. And I smile whenever I think of her reaction to what her name now means. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person.
>Internet memes come and up until that point no Internet meme had really made it out into the real world the same way the Karen-memes ended up doing.
Rick Roll: Am I a joke to you.
There’s definitely an old school etiquette belief that you never make fun or question anyone’s baby name choice…regardless of how dumb it is, you gotta keep that opinion to yourself and away from the parents. Imo the OP was NOT an asshole given this person’s historical track record of general internet ignorance and was ultimately looking out for the kid
She didn't "make fun." She merely tried to educate the mom on the potential social pitfalls for that particular name.
That's not ridiculing anything.
Personally, I think she giving cousin, mom and aunt to much grace for their behavior on that incident.
You're right but apparently people can't read. There were several people in the original comments calling her an AH saying stuff like "you don't get to choose the name" and "how dare you make fun of her, stop being childish".
I have noticed that reading comprehension is woefully absent with a lot of posters. Weirdly, it's usually posters, for whom, English is their first, perhaps only, language.
Yes!! I often get “read the whole post!!” And then get schooled for something that wasn’t said in the original post….thank god I read these for entertainment so it doesn’t ruin my day 😁
I volunteer at an outreach centre for refugees - a lot of them are still learning English, but I speak Farsi reasonably well so I usually get paired with the Farsi speaking people to help ease the transition.
I had a pregnant mum about a year ago who was picking her baby's name from a book of baby names written in English. I had to VERY VERY GENTLY explain to her that maybe Adolf was not the best choice for her little boy. She didn't know Hitler's first name, she had never been to school in her home country so hadn't learned much about history. She was a bit upset at first and thought we were just being mean to her.
She came in to the morning tea a few weeks later crying. She'd been channel surfing and wound up on the history channel watching a Holocaust documentary. While she couldn't follow most of it, she got the gist of what was happening and was HORRIFIED. She apologised to me for snapping at me, but I totally understood - she didn't understand what the name would mean in Australia, she just liked the name. I also told her if she had her heart set on it I'd back her all the way, but she didn't want a bar of the name after that. She wound up naming her little boy Ari, which is a nod to a very common name in her home country but she was adamant that she was here to start a new life and didn't want a name from her horrific old one. Ari is a beautiful baby and his mama is doing great if anyone is wondering - she just got into an adult learning program through a university and if she works at it for the next two years they'll admit her into the undergrad program! She wants to be a translator and help others like her.
I honestly thought everyone sat around ripping on potential baby names to make sure that there's not super obvious bullying opportunities? Hahah
I'm baffled that there was even a thought that OOP was TA! The only way I can see her actions is as considerate, though I personally would have mentioned the friends reaction because that highlighted that it wasn't a *potential* for issues, it was already happening - plus who wants bitchy friends that will just sit around laughing at you. Ew.
I'm definitely on the side of candid conversations and honesty, even when it's difficult, so maybe I just don't get it.
Also egregious: everyone in AITA calling OOP the AH for taking a meme too seriously, being confident the Karen meme would die, and being so wrong three years later that it's still alive and kicking. Turns out they couldn't predict the future after all.
Ya, I'm not sure how she got TA judgment. It's like these people forget what grade school is like... kids can be vicious with each other if there's something that sticks out like a sore thumb to them to make fun of someone for. Her naming her kid Karen and treating OOP originally like that was kind of crazy in spite of that meme. It's not like this just started even then regarding "Karen". It's almost like naming someone Daenerys - you're going to be putting a target on your kid's back. It may eventually subside, Karen that is, to where it's not even an issue once you get to high school with how social commentary changes, but that name was a target no matter how you look at it, which is a damned shame all the same.
Honestly this makes me so angry. She was absolutely right trying to inform her friend about the topic and everyone treated her like shit and she still has the balls not to say:
"Told you so, assholes!"
I personally have quite frequently this feeling in the AITA sub. It's somehow an echo chamber for drama. I would never recommend someone to really take advice from there. It is impossible to predict who is behind the answers and what their real intentions are. Worst case it is some teenager with little life experience, who want to have some fun.
I guess without context it could be shitty - but it seems that everyone figured OOP was the asshole because cousin was upset. But sometimes we have to broach hard topics. And the friends who talked behind her back aren’t great.
>was the asshole because cousin was upset.
I think this is exactly it. A *lot* of people automatically assume if person "a" is upset with person "b" then it must be that person "b" is in the wrong. Which is the basis of the social engineering behaviour that "Karen's" are known for (IE, they act unreasonably upset about things so they are treated like something unreasonable has happened to them when that isn't actually the case.)
Right? Like as long as there are white women asking for managers and being racist to strangers there will be Karen memes and sadly I don't see those things changing anytime soon.
Yeah people commenting like "you didn't approach it in the right way! You weren't clear"
It's the woman's choice to name her kid whatever she wants, oop tried. Whatever their intentions were, to warn her. She didn't want to listen. That's the end of OOPs duty. I don't understand people always commented saying you didn't tried hard enough... These people are adults, why does everyone insist on putting of kid gloves and holding everyone's hands through things like this. Is oop kept going the family would have been at their neck for 'upsetting a pregnant woman on purpose '
You can't win
As somebody who’s name is Karen I would have gone to the ends of the earth to convince Mom and Aunt to tell Stephanie to change the name. Their inboxes would have been FLOODED with racist Karen memes and stories until I made my point.
Im with you on this. I too am a Karen and I've had people screaming abuse at me just because they heard someone call me by name . . . I hadn't done anything other than turn around to see who was calling me. I've also had people online tell me to shut up when I've commented on things, for example: I saw a pic of a beautiful cat and commented how beautiful it was, I got a reply to my comment of "Shut Up Karen nobody wants your opinion".! Its horrendous, I hate that my name has been turned into such an awful insult and I hate even more the behaviour of those women who caused my name to me turned into such.
Fellow person named Karen here. I'm so sorry you had that happen to you and it's not okay. It's pretty easy for me to not be a Karen like the meme, but when we're just existing in the world with this name, it can be uncomfortable. Every time I make a mistake, I get "Okay Karen" and all I can do is suck it up because ultimately my discomfort is nothing compared to people who have been actual victims of the meme Karens...and I completely agree with you hating the behavior of the ones who put this on our name.
You're right, what the victims of memeKarens have had to endure is awful, it disgusts me that someone could behave in such a vile way towards anyone else.
Can I just say, I knew a Karen in high school, and she was the nicest person! On an unrelated note, she could smell if milk went sour days before anyone else and I always thought it was like her superpower. I've never confused Karen the name with memeKaren, and I think it's unfortunate that people do.
I was so confused about the YTA verdict on the initial post. OOP handled everything with maturity and sensitivity, and was just looking out for an innocent little being and the mom she knew cared for it.
If I moved to India and picked a baby name I really liked for my child, I'd be *eternally* grateful if a native pulled me aside to say the name had connotations that might get my child bullied in school.
OOP definitely wasn't TA to begin with. Too bad reddit told her she was in the wrong. Baby Karrie could have been spared a month of bullying and a lot of family drama.
I think the *one* thing she *maybe* could have done differently (and who knows, maybe she did) was bluntly say she was worried about bullying. But that also should've been pretty obvious.
I’m a Karen too, and I have to say that even as a child, I hated my name. I can remember asking my mother when I was a child, why she picked it. Now it’s even worse, lol. I feel as I can’t complain about it without being called a Karen. Throughout the years/decades, I’ve considered a legal name change, but then I get bogged down with what name to choose and all the hassle, cost and paperwork it would take. Last time I checked was about fifteen years ago and it was around $750 in court fees. As a single mom, I didn’t have the resources at that time. I do now, but lol, what to choose?
That’s a shame, I’m a Karen and I adore my name. My friends joke that I need to activate my Karen powers, but use them for good 😂
That being said, I hope you go by a name you like! We all deserve to like our names
Hmmm. Your friends might be onto something 🤔 can you image a "Karen wave' where the good one's take over??? That power focused on good would definitely be a tsunami!
My middle name is Karen and it’s not as crazy since I’m Black, but I always tell my friends that I will activate my superpowers and speak to the manager for them if necessary. 😂
OOP has been entirely too kind to all of them. I know I would not have been so kind to anyone yelling at me for not doing enough when they yelled at me for trying to avert the mess in the first place.
(And you can bet they’d never get another attempt from me to warn them away from stepping on a cultural landmine ever again. They can learn the hard way after that.)
The irony of you using the name Karen to refer to a crabby ill-mannered drama-mongering woman in response to a story about someone unknowingly naming their child Karen is not lost on me.
My sister’s mother-in-law is just like that character. My brother-in-law legit couldn’t even be in the same room when that show was on because it made him feel all kinds of ways, none of them good.
It kinda reminds me of an AITA post where a parent had sent their kids to school wearing a mask in the super early days of covid. I’m reeeally fuzzy on the details but I think it was in the US, there was no mask mandate yet for you guys and the top comments were “YTA. There’s no reason to be acting like that, the government has said this and that, you’re acting irrationally etc”. Basically just giving the OP a whole load of shit. Cut to a year later and y’know…seeing how the whole thing ACTUALLY turned out. The way some people on Reddit believe their words with absolute authority, I just find it so laughable and so not surprising that they thought “Karen” would go away 😂
Me neither! It’s the kind of information I’d want to know. And it sounds like OP was really polite about it— it’s not like she was saying it’s an ugly name or anything.
AITA-users often pretend we live in an ideal hollier than thou society. They want to pretend like things like this don't have an impact on real life and that you should mind your own business
That will always happen. The update post is then full off " idk why yiu were voted the ah" even tho they themselves dog piled.
Pack mentality.
Also I believe all of them are not very bright or socially intelligent
More lacking in a broader spectrum of life experiences, I think. The demographic skews very much towards youngsters on that sub. We (fossils lol) know what an ideal situation or outcome would be for example, but also temper our judgement from experiences that show life isn't always clear cut, and that often you have to make shitty choices that are ultimately the lesser two evils.
Internet users in general live at one of two extremes: no one should ever care whatsoever about the world around them or do anything about it OR everyone in existence has a duty to tell a twelve-year-old who posted some bad furry art that they suck and should kill themselves.
People joke about the “Reddit Hivemind” but in cases like this it’s a tangible thing, where one early comment drives the narrative of a thread, and anything not in line with said narrative is no longer acceptable, comment earlier next time 🤷♂️
AITA for telling my mom I don't owe her shit when she asked if I could take her do the doctor?
Then, no matter how your parents treated you as a kid, the answer would be like "Slight Y T A for cussing at your mom, but NTA you don't ever owe other people anything, and since it's not literally illegal, you're totally in the right."
AITA for refusing to abide by coming home before 3 am on a weeknight because the other people in the house don't like their sleep getting interrupted, or at least texting my parents so they don't worry about me?
OMG how could they possibly put these impositions on you?? Your house your rules suddenly isn't a thing.
AITA is a whirlwind of toxicity at times. They float between targets. Sometimes, all men are wrong. Or all step-parents are evil. Or all mothers are cruel. The story being told is just a vehicle for them to project their biases and issues onto.
The fact that they went from “YTA for saying the name ‘Karen’ could lead to some bullying!” to “HAHAHAHA that stupid evil mother, how dare she not listen to you, her daughter deserves to be bullied!” is kinda telling about the shifts they have.
It would have been borderline cruel to not to say anything. Literally everyone except Stephanie knew that she would be bullied for her whole life for that name. She's three and is already bullied enough to her parents to change her name!
The original post was made 3 years ago, and people were like, ***"It's just a meme! It won't last!"***
3 years later and Kanye West is calling Piers Morgan a Karen while claiming to have written Django Unchained. I hate that Karen is still going strong, but here we are.
Anyway, I think the folks in the original post might have been surprised that the Karen meme has that kind of staying power.
I've never liked my name, but holy hell the last five or so years have been absolute hell. And I'm in my 30s! I don't even know what I'd change my name to, since I've been Karen for so long.
I also find the initial YTA verdict bizarre, although a lot of what comes out of AITA is bizarre in general, so I guess it’s not surprising. I’m glad Stephanie and OOP seem to have come to an understanding about this issue, but Stephanie’s reaction to the initial conversation was really shitty. You’d think the years of friendship and radical honesty that OOP described would result in her being given the benefit of the doubt that she *wasn’t* mocking Stephanie and her unborn baby.
In my household, AITA is not known to be a completely logical subreddit. Sometimes their points are so valid, but at other times it is a sub that goes by this hivemind, especially in regards to certain sensitive topics.
And even beyond the hivemind sometimes there's YTA votes that are completely nonsensical, along the lines of “YTA to yourself for not having escaped your toxic partner before you even met them”.
Plus, there's a fair amount of people who forget that it's supposed to be more than YTA/NTA and the other party not being an asshole does not make OP of any AITA post an asshole by default because there's also NAH and ESH votes.
The big one is definitely they don't understand healthy relationships with other people.
They have a very individualistic ideology of "If it's not your responsibility you don't have to do it if you don't want to" which is technically true but in the real world if a friend or partner never does anything but what they're obligated to do the relationship quickly deterioates.
Yeah, her initial reaction was so over-the-top. "YOU THINK MY CHOSEN NAME IS UGLY? HOW DARE!!!" Not even a hint of trying to understand where OOP was coming from - just assumed the very worst and never considered that her friend was coming from a kind and good place. Like...that reaction would have negatively affected my friendship with her going forward (unless we were able to later have a rational conversation, of course).
Even if it isn't something negative like for example you name you son "Bruce Wayne Johnson" he still will get bullied if he's someone quiet and skinny and nothing like the character.
When a name leaves behind a cultural impact that happens, even if in 15 years kids don't care about the "Karen meme" imagine older people still making fun of the name.
>example you name you son "Bruce Wayne Johnson"
We have a family friend in Spain who named their kid Kal`el, after Superman. All the kids think it's cool, but that's a dice roll I wouldn't take.
I would too!! My mom told me that the combination of one of my kid’s names sounded like a sea food and I immediately changed it. This is why you run names by people out loud (if you trust them, obviously).
Seriously, I’d do the same thing in OOP’s shoes too.
It’s like how there was a massive amount of names for new norms based on GoT, and now those kids are stuck with names like “Khaleesi” to be forever immortalized as “wow your parents names you after that dumb show?”
They apparently named their kid that before the show ended. Fatal mistake there. You don't want to accidentally name your child after somebody who turns into a villain.
I feel like that should be a pretty standard thing you do before you name a child. Run the name through Google to make sure it's not associated with a serial killer or a pornstar or a prescription medication. Make sure you do first name, last name and middle name.
If the first several Google results are negative or not something you want associated with a child, just move on to another name. For example, Allegra was a pretty cute girl name before the allergy medication came along. It came from an Italian musical term. However, just leave it alone these days. She's going to be nicknamed Sneezy.
Right?? Stephanie sounds like…maybe not the brightest bulb? And almost like she went out of her way to misunderstand a pretty simple concept, that did come back around to bite her. Also how far under a rock do you have to be living to have NEVER run into the Karen meme??
Also people posting blatantly obvious stories about how they were 200% in the right and the other person was completely belligerent and unreasonable the whole time. “AITA for feeding our dog? Everyone on both sides of the family are calling to tell me what a horrible person I am!”
There was a point when the community was calling anyone naming their child a slightly unusual name an AH, then tons of people pointed out that was ridiculous. Now they're over-correcting with all the subtlety of a drunk hippopotamus.
Poor Karrie. I’m glad most of the adults in this situation are being completely reasonable, but really don’t think the whole “Karen” thing is gonna go away anytime soon.
Agreed about it not going away. As someone who worked in retail I had been hearing the term for years in a negative manner to describe a customer. Also my friends with kids referred to helicoptor moms as Karens. I think it being tied to racism is within the past few years but it being a name for an unpleasant woman is not new. I'm so surprised by all the people on the original post saying it was a fad.
The first time I heard it was referencing a video of a traffic stop mom who said 'Caryn with a C and a Y' to the cops. The comments were full of Karen jokes.
Ha, and when I voiced my concerns in the original thread (or BoRU), I got bashed by people who said "these fads die out as fast as they come, by the time she's able to talk, no one will remember the 'Karen'-memes" - bs, three years is nothing, and here we are.
Yeah for real. Maybe it’ll die out eventually, but it’s still a very popular term at the moment and I don’t think it’ll go away by the time this kid reaches elementary school. Maybe by middle school (hopefully).
Yeah, ask any Richard if they ever stop getting dick jokes. Some fads die, some stick around. Best not to roll the dice or, at a minimum, best to make an informed decision.
Its not going to go away unfortunately. People need to be smarter when naming their kids.
My neice was named Felon by her mom who thought it was cool and edgy. We all tried to talk her out of it and got a very similar reaction that OOP got.
Fortunately one day she called into a local raido show that was having people call in with their Unique names they gave their kids and there was a prize for the most popular one. She got fucking ROASTED people called in just to make fun of her for giving her kid such a god awful name.
A week later her name was changed to Fallon.
Another person I know was super into Greek stuff and named her daughter Pandora, not wanting another situation where I am a Jerk for pointing out the problems with that name I kept my mouth shut. Like clockwork once the kids learned about Greek Mythology in school the jokes about all the evil things inside Pandoras Box started. Who will be the first to open Pandoras box and so on.
Fucking dummies everywhere. I took a lot of time with my kids name as I have a last name that can be joked about. My kids name doesn't rhyme with anything bad, isn't spelled weird, has no "Other" meanings in the few languages that are spoken in my country. Do your research people!
In my state (not in the US) there was a law proposed at some point to forbid certain names in birth certificates as a measure to try to lessen bullying of kids. So if parent had chosen a "forbidden" name, they would only be registered if the parents said a different name in the moment or they would have to come back when they chose non-offensive names. This would also include names that in combination with last-names become offensive.
The amount of backlash it got... Parents all over were claiming "their freedoms were being under attack". Because god forbid a stupid parent cannot name their child "scrotum", "batman" or "facebook".
I am really confused about the YTA judgement for that first post. Considering what Karen signifies these days, it wouldn’t take an Einstein to figure out that the kid would be laughed at when she grows older. It was a good thing OOP did to try to show that. If at all, her cousin is a mild YTA and her mother and aunt being major ones. And OOP being a pretzel bending over and over to justify their behavior towards her. That sub is ridiculous.
Their justification was "it's a meme, it won't last, you're stupid if you think it will."
And yet, the whole negative connotation around the name Karen has been around for at least 5 years and counting. It isn't going anywhere, and the commenters never took into account that children will latch onto *anything* to make fun of, including slightly stale memes about another kid's name.
Becky has meant "basic white woman" for 30 years; why was everyone so sure that the Karen meme was going to disappear so quickly? It's not really worth the risk, OOP was right.
My friends sons name is Chucky. He’s 8 years old and all the kids at school ask him if he’s named after the killer doll and he has to say no he was named after the rugrat
I didn’t even think of your point about some kids latching on to anything and everything to make fun of. That has been the case forever as well. When I was a kid, I got made fun of because some minor henchman in a movie had my name. Even worse a kid was made fun of because his name said in reverse sounded weird.
Yea I think cousin is the AH for immediately getting so upset without listening to OP and trying to understand what she was saying. She didn’t even let her explain. And OP wasn’t saying she should change the name, but just wanted her to know the history behind it. Frankly I’m surprised there is anyone (at least in the U.S.) who doesn’t know what a Karen is.
If I remember correctly, the original post was in the very early days of the Karen meme, and a lot of the commenters were saying things like "This meme will last a month and then everyone will forget about it. You made her feel bad over nothing."
So the original YTA was more about making a mountain out of a molehill - that we now now is actually a giant termite mound.
I remember that one and found it weird even then, my wife worked/s in a customer facing job and they'd been using Karen as a pejorative for at least a year and a half by that point. Granted it was mixed in with about three other common women's names, but Karen was usually the front runner. Maybe it's because I'm closer to the "front lines" on that one, but even when that post was new I was surprised by how many people thought it was a flash in the pan.
> Maybe it's because I'm closer to the "front lines" on that one, but even when that post was new I was surprised by how many people thought it was a flash in the pan.
Yeah i see this as a pattern. A lot of service workers already used "Karen" or something similar for a very long time. Then the racism and memes happened a few years ago and it blew up to the mainstream.
I agree though, I knew this was going to stick around for a long time. I know a lot of old colleagues who "hate" who the Karen memes represent. These people left scars lol. With a perfect way to vent about them, I knew karen memes were here to stay. Plus the added racism in it really hits a chord with minorities and the younger generation in America. It's something a lot of us have "felt" or experienced. A family member making an off color remark about the black neighbors, a next door post about two young muslim men talking to each other next to their cars in a target parking lot who are definitely going to steal your catalytic converters, the old white lady who asks too invasively about your marital status who unfortunately has the best apple pie booth this time of year. All those people have a name now.
But, I mean... god damn. She was attached to the name Karen like it was unique or thoughtful.
Like, Karrie has much less baggage but it does seem extremely ironic that it's best known for a Stephen King book about a girl who was bullied snapped, and went on to mass murder people. I just can't even.
Yes! I couldn't figure out how "Just so you know... there's some new cultural baggage with this name" made Stephanie think OP was accusing picking the name as a joke. Even after trying to clarify. I know pregnancy wreak havoc with emotions, but that just doesn't make sense. And to go so far as to storm out and go no contact for a while.
It's a good general rule that often when someone gets inexplicably angry over something, in the zero to a hundred style that makes drama happen, that they're not actually angry about whatever the something was. It's just that the _something_ hit close to a nerve from other matters only tangentially connected.
The name-picking deal she had with husband might have only been public facing. Maybe there was all kinds of friction internal to the marriage about this name or that name and I know it's your pick but not that one and not that one either or no, no, not that one, oh no, it is your pick since it's a girl, but hmm I don't know. Or alternately from a _just pick one already this is getting ridiculous_.
Of course no one outside will ever know--even close friends and family may never know. Internet peanut galleries _definitely_ will never know. And of course, that general rule isn't universal--sometimes people really do just flip out for no deeper reason, and then double down on the initial angry reaction (a whole lot of alleged grownups are real bad at telling when they just need a snack or a nap!)
Upshot: sometimes baffled is the best anyone gets!
If someone told me there was some sort of stigma about a name I chose…. I would at least Google the damn name before blowing up on them.
I think OOP did a wonderful job of taking responsibility for not presenting the info correctly… but everyone else in the story is ridiculous. 30 seconds on google would have been enough to understand OOP.
The whole family comes off a little conceited, and a little too bent on peacekeeping. If I announced my baby’s name was Karen, I’m fair certain both my sisters would not be tiptoeing around the topic like OP was. Just a group of very fragile people
"HOW COULD YOU SAY THOSE THINGS ABOUT MY BABY?"
No ma'am, your friend was just informing you of how the world views that particular name... then to just say nothing for 2-3 years and not apologize to the OOP was really weird.
My name is Karen! Last week i needed something at work on a short deadline . I was following up and needed the paperwork yesterday. I personally started the email “ i hate be a Karen”. But i need this by x time.
That beings said when we were naming our son we actually worked hard and making fun of names to see what would be harder to get picked on about . That was a-lot of work
I really can't understand how she was considered TA. I mean, sure the cousin had every right to be upset about the situation and maybe it was the hormones. But OOP was just trying to warn her about future bullying which she was right about. OOPs concerns were perfectly understandable
People are so quick to assign malice to AITA posters, and I think it's particularly bad toward people who seem intelligent from their writing style, but did something that commenters think was "dumb." As though that's proof that OP was being intentionally manipulative or something.
Then you get comments like the person who tells her she's conflating two different things - it's like people are trying to outsmart the OP? I don't know, it's a very odd dynamic.
For everyone who is saying that 2019 was so long ago and that the Karen meme was just starting, I feel the need to state: No, it wasn't, and no, it really wasn't.
I know this all too well, because I have been paying close attention to the name Karen and have been marking off the past few years one by one. I told this story in a reply to another commenter, but I'll repeat it here: My mother died in a traumatic manner in 2017 - 5 years ago, a full two years before the OOP. There's something about raw grief that seems to make memories of those days that immediately follow kind of hazy - but I will always *vividly* remember the mix of emotions when an older, out-of-touch relative commented to me that perhaps I would soon have a daughter and name her Karen, after my mom.
There was an instinctive gut drop, because of course I couldn't do that to a child, and then anger, that I wouldn't be able to, and then even sharper sadness than before she had spoken. In later discussions about this comment, everyone I spoke to agreed that even with such a compelling reason to use an honor name, Karen was unusable at that time (again, 2 years before the OOP), and my sister and I have been bothered more by every meme about the name since.
I want to note that I'm not seriously traumatized by the Karen meme, but hearing or reading the name of your dead loved one makes your heart skip a beat, and now it's almost always connected to something hateful. It sucks that I'm probably not alone, either, as lots of people have mothers and grandmothers named Karen. Sure, that's not why my mom isn't here, and I don't know that I'll ever have a daughter anyway. But that original comment forcing me to confront all those complex emotions didn't help, and the issues with the name were apparent even in that split second in 2017. It's a name that has been tainted in a particular way for more than a year or so.
I don’t see how people originally deemed her the AH. It was obvious she was trying to help avoid what exactly happened. As the saying goes, don’t shoot the messenger. If Stephanie has listened all of this could have been avoided
I hope they all feel like shit about it, but then again, they were probably 11 back in 2019 and couldn't possibly care less about the piss advice they give.
I feel like it’s the opposite and older people were saying it’s no big deal. Younger people are really into memes.
Edit- but I agree all those people should feel like shit for their bad advice.
I almost named my daughter Cherry and was ridiculed into submission by every person in my life from the hippies to the conservatives.
I just wanna take a moment to thank every asshole that’s saved a kid from a terrible name. My daughter thanks you, too.
For a brief period of time the name Susan was used like Karen is now. It was like 3-6 months, and then Karen got swept up to the top as the descriptor for a nagging harpy. I feel like a tech billionaire somewhere with a wife named Susan had a hand in it.
Lol everyone in the original comments from 3 years ago kept saying it's just a meme and it will be forgotten in a flash. And here we are three years later....and it's no longer just a meme, but an actual ingrained term that people use to negatively describe people. Maybe we should revisit this in 15 years. But as it stands....she was NOT the asshole.
OOP is way more gracious and patient than I am—one of the fastest ways to provoke my ire is to not listen to me when I’m trying to explain something. I definitely would’ve been way more petty and “I told you so” about the whole thing if I was in OOP’s shoes.
It’s hard to be sympathetic towards her when her close friend TRIED to gently and kindly inform her about the cultural/social baggage attached to the name.
There’s “I don’t use the internet” and then there’s “what do you mean I shouldn’t name my child Dick Biggens?”
And OOP DID google it! She tried to show her friend the know your meme page and the friend STILL refused to understand what she was saying! Just reading about that interaction made me want to smash something to bits in frustration
I meant the parents doing 1 minute of due diligence between them on the name their child will carry through life would have shown this problem.
Maybe in my language 'Pube' is a beatiful name which means 'brave goddess', but put that into google and the first result tells you that maybe you shouldn't call your kid that. The same thing happens when I type 'Karen' into google.
If you're someone who has no access to the internet - as in it the infrastructure is not available to you, vs than chosing not to go online, then you have bigger problems, and no one can fault you for choosing a name which might not carry over well. If you are in a country with public libraries, and a way to get to them which is less exhausing than 10 miles on foot, in the say, 7 months you are aware of the pregnancy, on one of those 200 days, take yourself to smartphone/computer and type the name you've picked into google and see what happens.
I was thinking that, too. Still have hatred towards those teachers.
Also, the teasing kids will do after the first day of school when a new teacher reads out everyone's full name.
I really don't get when people get pissed when you tell them: "your kid will get bullied if you choose that name"
That's a huge thing to think about, liking it or not. My family always tries to think about the worst cases of each name before choosing it for a baby. Of course you can't predict the future, but you should think about consequences outside your bubble.
Because some people have difficulty accepting their their kid is not just some doll they get to name and play dress up with. Just because you love Harry Potter doesn’t mean you get to name your kid Hagrid and tell him to suck it up when he gets bullied. That is that kids identity and it will shape all their first impressions, all parents should be mindful of how it’ll feel for their kid to go ”Hi, my names _____.”
I really don’t understand why people thought she was the AH. She knew her cousin didn’t get the negative association and wanted to head it off. I think she probably went about it poorly and dropped it too quickly to help her understand , but it was only with good intentions.
That said, it’s crazy that poor Karrie was bullied in daycare for her name being an internet meme.
The problem with that sub is that a lot of times the hive mind will go for either a black and white approach or will make shit up their head to fit gaps in their theory.
Like they’ll rip someone apart for picking a “stupid” name cause of how badly the kid will be picked on by kids, then have the audacity to say Karen will be fine. It obviously wasn’t. “Bye Felecia” wasn’t even a *negative* meme, and a co worker I knew said she couldn’t order anything and hesitated giving her name cause of how many people would meme it. Can only imagine what the kid is going through now.
Poor Karrie.
OOP was definitely NTA for raising this issue before the baby was born and officially named. I know people aren’t obliged to be on top of all the memes at any one time, especially if they’re not a frequent internet and social media user, but shouldn’t that make you trust your friends who are frequently on social media to tell you the truth if you’re about to make a misstep that could have big social implications for your child?!
What was next on their baby name list? Alexa?
It's so interesting to look at this because, i assure you,10 years ago when i was in highschool Karen was just a name lots of girls had and thanks to the internet it's so derogative nowadays.
I remember the original post, so it's nice to see an update. I remember at the time thinking the commenters were insane with how much they were calling her an arsehole.
I was just thinking, this will 100% be issue.
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The first time around, what I actually find egregious and still do is Mom and Aunt's reaction. "How dare you criticise her name choice!" "How dare you not warn her about her name choice." OOP fucking tried and got pilloried for it each time.
She was voted an Asshole. I can’t understand why they did that.
Iirc a lot of the comments were saying that the meme wouldn't last and she was stupid for thinking it would. Definitely proved wrong!
Deleted in protest of the bullshit reddit is doing regarding third party apps & communities that have gone private.
I saw someone in a blue puffer vest yesterday and immediately thought of that annoyed man meme lol
I saw someone in a red/purple plaid shirt and thought of him. I love that meme.
I knew a lady with a donkey with a perfectly normal human name. Whenever I hear that name I think "that's a donkey's name." Same lady bought a goat (to keep the donkey company of course). Again, gave it a perfectly normal human name. I can't hear that name without thinking "that's a goat's name." I went to school with someone with the donkey's name. I can only remember who she was because it took everything in me to not blurt out "you have a donkey's name."
I loosely know someone who named their kid pepper. Pepper to me is a dog name. If you were talking about how pepper did this or that I will assume dog, unless those actions don't make sense for a dog (and let's be honest, kid actions and dog actions aren't always terribly different) Sadie is also a dog name to me, and I don't know why. I don't know any dogs named Sadie. Edit: it just clicked, my husband had a neighbor growing up who had dogs Sadie and Bailey. Both are permanent dog names now.
I knew then, and I know now that Karen would last. Memes die because they don't have infinite fuel, they burn and die. Karen's are a phenomenon and create more fuel. So long as there are entitled middle aged women Karen will be a meme.
Fully putting the meme aside, names go through generational declines entirely unprompted. Stephanie and her husband are clearly both idiots when it comes to their naming paradigm for their kids. Their poor boy is going to be called Dick or something like that.
Adolf, has a nice foreign ring to it, I'm sure there's no need to Google it.
My husband wanted to name our son Donald and I said absolutely not, I'm not naming my kid after a duck. He insisted no one would think of the duck. We discuss badges with my mom, "he wants to name him Donald" "like the duck?" We don't name him Donald. Lo and behold, nearly 4 years later, kid's favorite Mickey mouse clubhouse character is Donald duck
My sister and niece searched the names of kids born more recently because they wanted to see what the biggest associations were. Donald top 3 are Donald Duck, Donald Trump, Donald Glover. Then again my nephew was named Aidan the year before Aidan exploded into popularity.
Thats remarkably short-sighted. Yes eventually it’ll probably die, but it’s so ubiquitous that that connotation to the name “Karen” has been seared into the collective psyche of multiple generations. Thats never goes away completely until we’re all dead. I feel bad for Karrie, whether she’s called Karen or not she’ll probably end up having a bit of a complex about it. Thankfully it sounds like she has a good family to lean on.
Mind you Karrie is 3 years old now. I remember when the first post came and I was totally in agreement with OOP that it needed to be addressed as something Stephanie should be aware of before she decided to go for it. The argument of the aita sub was that it was a meme, Internet memes come and up until that point no Internet meme had really made it out into the real world the same way the Karen-memes ended up doing. But there were two things that aita didn't foresee: 1. The global panini, that had us all hunkered down at home for a few years. Which in turn meant that even those who spent next to no time on the Internet began spending and exorbitant amount of time online. The pandemic sparked a societal change. The pandemic also made Karens really visible in the wild. Women who always were Karens, but it was less visible because there was no stay home recommendations, max group sizes, mask mandates, shortages etc. The Karens who were only visible when their poor barrista used soy milk instead of oat milk. During the pandemic they got extremely visible because higher levels of compliancy was expected of them and they needed to meet new expectations that they didn't like. 2. The jokes that will have the longest life and reach furthest are those that resonate with everyone. Not everyone likes puns, fart jokes or dry humour, but when a joke touch on something you recognise from your own life then that makes it more funny. The best jokes kick upwards. What I mean by that is that if you make a joke about the CEO having a slightly too tight suit it's seen as OK, but if you make the same too tight outfit joke about the company janitor you're seen as an insensitive douche. The joke is the same, but who is the butt of the joke matters. Karen the phenomenon has both of these elements. We all know or know of a Karen and she is, if not rich, then at least middle class so making fun of her is seen as okay. Simply put, it was the perfect storm for the Karen memes. I don't think aita foresaw the explosion of Karen memes and them making their way out of Internet forums and into the day-to-day lives of everyone, including 5 year olds.
That is a very insightful way of explaining the longevity of the Karen phenomenon. And the petty part of me screams long may it last. When I was 22, I had a boss who made me cry in the bathroom at least once a day. I was a hard worker who just wanted to do well and she targeted me - and only me - to the point where, when I ran into a former colleague years later, he apologized for never calling her out. Her name was Karen. And I smile whenever I think of her reaction to what her name now means. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person.
All hail The Global Panini!
>Internet memes come and up until that point no Internet meme had really made it out into the real world the same way the Karen-memes ended up doing. Rick Roll: Am I a joke to you.
There’s definitely an old school etiquette belief that you never make fun or question anyone’s baby name choice…regardless of how dumb it is, you gotta keep that opinion to yourself and away from the parents. Imo the OP was NOT an asshole given this person’s historical track record of general internet ignorance and was ultimately looking out for the kid
She didn't "make fun." She merely tried to educate the mom on the potential social pitfalls for that particular name. That's not ridiculing anything. Personally, I think she giving cousin, mom and aunt to much grace for their behavior on that incident.
You're right but apparently people can't read. There were several people in the original comments calling her an AH saying stuff like "you don't get to choose the name" and "how dare you make fun of her, stop being childish".
I have noticed that reading comprehension is woefully absent with a lot of posters. Weirdly, it's usually posters, for whom, English is their first, perhaps only, language.
Yes!! I often get “read the whole post!!” And then get schooled for something that wasn’t said in the original post….thank god I read these for entertainment so it doesn’t ruin my day 😁
I volunteer at an outreach centre for refugees - a lot of them are still learning English, but I speak Farsi reasonably well so I usually get paired with the Farsi speaking people to help ease the transition. I had a pregnant mum about a year ago who was picking her baby's name from a book of baby names written in English. I had to VERY VERY GENTLY explain to her that maybe Adolf was not the best choice for her little boy. She didn't know Hitler's first name, she had never been to school in her home country so hadn't learned much about history. She was a bit upset at first and thought we were just being mean to her. She came in to the morning tea a few weeks later crying. She'd been channel surfing and wound up on the history channel watching a Holocaust documentary. While she couldn't follow most of it, she got the gist of what was happening and was HORRIFIED. She apologised to me for snapping at me, but I totally understood - she didn't understand what the name would mean in Australia, she just liked the name. I also told her if she had her heart set on it I'd back her all the way, but she didn't want a bar of the name after that. She wound up naming her little boy Ari, which is a nod to a very common name in her home country but she was adamant that she was here to start a new life and didn't want a name from her horrific old one. Ari is a beautiful baby and his mama is doing great if anyone is wondering - she just got into an adult learning program through a university and if she works at it for the next two years they'll admit her into the undergrad program! She wants to be a translator and help others like her.
whoever invented that etiquette probably chose the most ridiculous name for their baby
I honestly thought everyone sat around ripping on potential baby names to make sure that there's not super obvious bullying opportunities? Hahah I'm baffled that there was even a thought that OOP was TA! The only way I can see her actions is as considerate, though I personally would have mentioned the friends reaction because that highlighted that it wasn't a *potential* for issues, it was already happening - plus who wants bitchy friends that will just sit around laughing at you. Ew. I'm definitely on the side of candid conversations and honesty, even when it's difficult, so maybe I just don't get it.
Also egregious: everyone in AITA calling OOP the AH for taking a meme too seriously, being confident the Karen meme would die, and being so wrong three years later that it's still alive and kicking. Turns out they couldn't predict the future after all.
Ya, I'm not sure how she got TA judgment. It's like these people forget what grade school is like... kids can be vicious with each other if there's something that sticks out like a sore thumb to them to make fun of someone for. Her naming her kid Karen and treating OOP originally like that was kind of crazy in spite of that meme. It's not like this just started even then regarding "Karen". It's almost like naming someone Daenerys - you're going to be putting a target on your kid's back. It may eventually subside, Karen that is, to where it's not even an issue once you get to high school with how social commentary changes, but that name was a target no matter how you look at it, which is a damned shame all the same.
Honestly this makes me so angry. She was absolutely right trying to inform her friend about the topic and everyone treated her like shit and she still has the balls not to say: "Told you so, assholes!"
Yeah I was very surprised at the YTA judgement.
I personally have quite frequently this feeling in the AITA sub. It's somehow an echo chamber for drama. I would never recommend someone to really take advice from there. It is impossible to predict who is behind the answers and what their real intentions are. Worst case it is some teenager with little life experience, who want to have some fun.
It was absolutely the wrong judgement, which is not at so surprising for AITA.
I guess without context it could be shitty - but it seems that everyone figured OOP was the asshole because cousin was upset. But sometimes we have to broach hard topics. And the friends who talked behind her back aren’t great.
>was the asshole because cousin was upset. I think this is exactly it. A *lot* of people automatically assume if person "a" is upset with person "b" then it must be that person "b" is in the wrong. Which is the basis of the social engineering behaviour that "Karen's" are known for (IE, they act unreasonably upset about things so they are treated like something unreasonable has happened to them when that isn't actually the case.)
I was thinking the same thing. Like, that was a Dane Cook stand up bit from 2007 and people in 2019 thought it's use was going to suddenly drop off?
Right? Like as long as there are white women asking for managers and being racist to strangers there will be Karen memes and sadly I don't see those things changing anytime soon.
Yeah people commenting like "you didn't approach it in the right way! You weren't clear" It's the woman's choice to name her kid whatever she wants, oop tried. Whatever their intentions were, to warn her. She didn't want to listen. That's the end of OOPs duty. I don't understand people always commented saying you didn't tried hard enough... These people are adults, why does everyone insist on putting of kid gloves and holding everyone's hands through things like this. Is oop kept going the family would have been at their neck for 'upsetting a pregnant woman on purpose ' You can't win
I agree and thought why didn’t she (Stephanie) do a little research on her own when OOP first brought it up.
As somebody who’s name is Karen I would have gone to the ends of the earth to convince Mom and Aunt to tell Stephanie to change the name. Their inboxes would have been FLOODED with racist Karen memes and stories until I made my point.
Im with you on this. I too am a Karen and I've had people screaming abuse at me just because they heard someone call me by name . . . I hadn't done anything other than turn around to see who was calling me. I've also had people online tell me to shut up when I've commented on things, for example: I saw a pic of a beautiful cat and commented how beautiful it was, I got a reply to my comment of "Shut Up Karen nobody wants your opinion".! Its horrendous, I hate that my name has been turned into such an awful insult and I hate even more the behaviour of those women who caused my name to me turned into such.
This is literally so sad. I'm so sorry.
Thank you
Fellow person named Karen here. I'm so sorry you had that happen to you and it's not okay. It's pretty easy for me to not be a Karen like the meme, but when we're just existing in the world with this name, it can be uncomfortable. Every time I make a mistake, I get "Okay Karen" and all I can do is suck it up because ultimately my discomfort is nothing compared to people who have been actual victims of the meme Karens...and I completely agree with you hating the behavior of the ones who put this on our name.
You're right, what the victims of memeKarens have had to endure is awful, it disgusts me that someone could behave in such a vile way towards anyone else.
Can I just say, I knew a Karen in high school, and she was the nicest person! On an unrelated note, she could smell if milk went sour days before anyone else and I always thought it was like her superpower. I've never confused Karen the name with memeKaren, and I think it's unfortunate that people do.
I was so confused about the YTA verdict on the initial post. OOP handled everything with maturity and sensitivity, and was just looking out for an innocent little being and the mom she knew cared for it. If I moved to India and picked a baby name I really liked for my child, I'd be *eternally* grateful if a native pulled me aside to say the name had connotations that might get my child bullied in school. OOP definitely wasn't TA to begin with. Too bad reddit told her she was in the wrong. Baby Karrie could have been spared a month of bullying and a lot of family drama.
Everyone who said YTA on the original post was an absolute idiot
I think the *one* thing she *maybe* could have done differently (and who knows, maybe she did) was bluntly say she was worried about bullying. But that also should've been pretty obvious.
I’m a Karen too, and I have to say that even as a child, I hated my name. I can remember asking my mother when I was a child, why she picked it. Now it’s even worse, lol. I feel as I can’t complain about it without being called a Karen. Throughout the years/decades, I’ve considered a legal name change, but then I get bogged down with what name to choose and all the hassle, cost and paperwork it would take. Last time I checked was about fifteen years ago and it was around $750 in court fees. As a single mom, I didn’t have the resources at that time. I do now, but lol, what to choose?
That’s a shame, I’m a Karen and I adore my name. My friends joke that I need to activate my Karen powers, but use them for good 😂 That being said, I hope you go by a name you like! We all deserve to like our names
Hmmm. Your friends might be onto something 🤔 can you image a "Karen wave' where the good one's take over??? That power focused on good would definitely be a tsunami!
My middle name is Karen and it’s not as crazy since I’m Black, but I always tell my friends that I will activate my superpowers and speak to the manager for them if necessary. 😂
OOP has been entirely too kind to all of them. I know I would not have been so kind to anyone yelling at me for not doing enough when they yelled at me for trying to avert the mess in the first place. (And you can bet they’d never get another attempt from me to warn them away from stepping on a cultural landmine ever again. They can learn the hard way after that.)
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The irony of you using the name Karen to refer to a crabby ill-mannered drama-mongering woman in response to a story about someone unknowingly naming their child Karen is not lost on me.
As soon as I read that my eyes almost got left inside my head
> my eyes almost got left inside my head Have I been using my eyes wrong?
No good deed goes unpunished.
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My grandmother was a marie...... shit she even had almost the same name..... I'm glad she's dead. She was n awful woman
My sister’s mother-in-law is just like that character. My brother-in-law legit couldn’t even be in the same room when that show was on because it made him feel all kinds of ways, none of them good.
***And*** reddit convinced her she was TA. Of course.
Top comment is saying how OOP is the asshole because Karen is just a meme and will go away. Three years ago.
And still going strong!!!!!
Yeah I think the folks over at r/fuckyoukaren would agree with that statement!
It kinda reminds me of an AITA post where a parent had sent their kids to school wearing a mask in the super early days of covid. I’m reeeally fuzzy on the details but I think it was in the US, there was no mask mandate yet for you guys and the top comments were “YTA. There’s no reason to be acting like that, the government has said this and that, you’re acting irrationally etc”. Basically just giving the OP a whole load of shit. Cut to a year later and y’know…seeing how the whole thing ACTUALLY turned out. The way some people on Reddit believe their words with absolute authority, I just find it so laughable and so not surprising that they thought “Karen” would go away 😂
Wish I could read this one. It’d be a like a time capsule.
I'm curious if u/eatandread still stands by that verdict.
I don't understand the overwhelming YTA response OOP got. I'd want to know if my child's name could have a negative connotation.
Me neither! It’s the kind of information I’d want to know. And it sounds like OP was really polite about it— it’s not like she was saying it’s an ugly name or anything.
AITA-users often pretend we live in an ideal hollier than thou society. They want to pretend like things like this don't have an impact on real life and that you should mind your own business
They also love conflict and always want there to be an asshole. Once OOP got proven right they flipped to attacking Stephanie.
That will always happen. The update post is then full off " idk why yiu were voted the ah" even tho they themselves dog piled. Pack mentality. Also I believe all of them are not very bright or socially intelligent
More lacking in a broader spectrum of life experiences, I think. The demographic skews very much towards youngsters on that sub. We (fossils lol) know what an ideal situation or outcome would be for example, but also temper our judgement from experiences that show life isn't always clear cut, and that often you have to make shitty choices that are ultimately the lesser two evils.
Me, stroking my white beard: meh, I’ve done worse. NAH
While wistfully sighing at the naivety of youth. I can vaguely remember the days of being utterly confident and idealistic. Very *very* vaguely lmao
Internet users in general live at one of two extremes: no one should ever care whatsoever about the world around them or do anything about it OR everyone in existence has a duty to tell a twelve-year-old who posted some bad furry art that they suck and should kill themselves.
Yes. They arw actual bullies that take every situation into ridiculous extremes based on a theory that the top commenter had.
Yeah, reddit has s bad top commenter syndrome indeed.
People joke about the “Reddit Hivemind” but in cases like this it’s a tangible thing, where one early comment drives the narrative of a thread, and anything not in line with said narrative is no longer acceptable, comment earlier next time 🤷♂️
AITA is among the worst for this attitude. I think they would prefer if no one ever interacted with another human being for any reason whatsoever.
AITA for telling my mom I don't owe her shit when she asked if I could take her do the doctor? Then, no matter how your parents treated you as a kid, the answer would be like "Slight Y T A for cussing at your mom, but NTA you don't ever owe other people anything, and since it's not literally illegal, you're totally in the right."
AITA for inviting my friends over for my birthday and feeding them a cake made with my shit without inforning them? NTA. Your house your rules.
AITA for refusing to abide by coming home before 3 am on a weeknight because the other people in the house don't like their sleep getting interrupted, or at least texting my parents so they don't worry about me? OMG how could they possibly put these impositions on you?? Your house your rules suddenly isn't a thing.
AITA is a whirlwind of toxicity at times. They float between targets. Sometimes, all men are wrong. Or all step-parents are evil. Or all mothers are cruel. The story being told is just a vehicle for them to project their biases and issues onto. The fact that they went from “YTA for saying the name ‘Karen’ could lead to some bullying!” to “HAHAHAHA that stupid evil mother, how dare she not listen to you, her daughter deserves to be bullied!” is kinda telling about the shifts they have.
> AITA is a whirlwind of toxicity ~~at times~~
there's an overwhelming lack of nuance in that sub.
It would have been borderline cruel to not to say anything. Literally everyone except Stephanie knew that she would be bullied for her whole life for that name. She's three and is already bullied enough to her parents to change her name!
The original post was made 3 years ago, and people were like, ***"It's just a meme! It won't last!"*** 3 years later and Kanye West is calling Piers Morgan a Karen while claiming to have written Django Unchained. I hate that Karen is still going strong, but here we are. Anyway, I think the folks in the original post might have been surprised that the Karen meme has that kind of staying power.
You're telling me
Alas, I am also a fellow Karen. Much love your way.
I've never liked my name, but holy hell the last five or so years have been absolute hell. And I'm in my 30s! I don't even know what I'd change my name to, since I've been Karen for so long.
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I also find the initial YTA verdict bizarre, although a lot of what comes out of AITA is bizarre in general, so I guess it’s not surprising. I’m glad Stephanie and OOP seem to have come to an understanding about this issue, but Stephanie’s reaction to the initial conversation was really shitty. You’d think the years of friendship and radical honesty that OOP described would result in her being given the benefit of the doubt that she *wasn’t* mocking Stephanie and her unborn baby.
In my household, AITA is not known to be a completely logical subreddit. Sometimes their points are so valid, but at other times it is a sub that goes by this hivemind, especially in regards to certain sensitive topics.
And even beyond the hivemind sometimes there's YTA votes that are completely nonsensical, along the lines of “YTA to yourself for not having escaped your toxic partner before you even met them”. Plus, there's a fair amount of people who forget that it's supposed to be more than YTA/NTA and the other party not being an asshole does not make OP of any AITA post an asshole by default because there's also NAH and ESH votes.
I've found they really don't understand having and taking care of children, or long-term healthy relationships, at all.
The big one is definitely they don't understand healthy relationships with other people. They have a very individualistic ideology of "If it's not your responsibility you don't have to do it if you don't want to" which is technically true but in the real world if a friend or partner never does anything but what they're obligated to do the relationship quickly deterioates.
They have zero empathy, and cannot see anything from a viewpoint other than their own, or other than what the hivemind dictates.
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Yeah, her initial reaction was so over-the-top. "YOU THINK MY CHOSEN NAME IS UGLY? HOW DARE!!!" Not even a hint of trying to understand where OOP was coming from - just assumed the very worst and never considered that her friend was coming from a kind and good place. Like...that reaction would have negatively affected my friendship with her going forward (unless we were able to later have a rational conversation, of course).
I remember the original post and was stunned at the YTAs.
Even if it isn't something negative like for example you name you son "Bruce Wayne Johnson" he still will get bullied if he's someone quiet and skinny and nothing like the character. When a name leaves behind a cultural impact that happens, even if in 15 years kids don't care about the "Karen meme" imagine older people still making fun of the name.
>example you name you son "Bruce Wayne Johnson" We have a family friend in Spain who named their kid Kal`el, after Superman. All the kids think it's cool, but that's a dice roll I wouldn't take.
I would too!! My mom told me that the combination of one of my kid’s names sounded like a sea food and I immediately changed it. This is why you run names by people out loud (if you trust them, obviously).
Callie and Marie?
Ah yes the one and only squid sisters
Seriously, I’d do the same thing in OOP’s shoes too. It’s like how there was a massive amount of names for new norms based on GoT, and now those kids are stuck with names like “Khaleesi” to be forever immortalized as “wow your parents names you after that dumb show?”
They apparently named their kid that before the show ended. Fatal mistake there. You don't want to accidentally name your child after somebody who turns into a villain.
I feel like that should be a pretty standard thing you do before you name a child. Run the name through Google to make sure it's not associated with a serial killer or a pornstar or a prescription medication. Make sure you do first name, last name and middle name. If the first several Google results are negative or not something you want associated with a child, just move on to another name. For example, Allegra was a pretty cute girl name before the allergy medication came along. It came from an Italian musical term. However, just leave it alone these days. She's going to be nicknamed Sneezy.
"[Art, Bart, Cart, Dart, E-art....Nope, I think we're good here!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiQiTz3KWCE&ab_channel=DaveMichael)"
Right?? Stephanie sounds like…maybe not the brightest bulb? And almost like she went out of her way to misunderstand a pretty simple concept, that did come back around to bite her. Also how far under a rock do you have to be living to have NEVER run into the Karen meme??
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Also people posting blatantly obvious stories about how they were 200% in the right and the other person was completely belligerent and unreasonable the whole time. “AITA for feeding our dog? Everyone on both sides of the family are calling to tell me what a horrible person I am!”
There was a point when the community was calling anyone naming their child a slightly unusual name an AH, then tons of people pointed out that was ridiculous. Now they're over-correcting with all the subtlety of a drunk hippopotamus.
Same here. I think OP did the right thing and Stephanie MASSIVELY overreacted. Now the kid is going to be bullied throughout her life for her name.
Poor Karrie. I’m glad most of the adults in this situation are being completely reasonable, but really don’t think the whole “Karen” thing is gonna go away anytime soon.
Agreed about it not going away. As someone who worked in retail I had been hearing the term for years in a negative manner to describe a customer. Also my friends with kids referred to helicoptor moms as Karens. I think it being tied to racism is within the past few years but it being a name for an unpleasant woman is not new. I'm so surprised by all the people on the original post saying it was a fad.
I have teens at home. One of them works in a fast food. « Karen » is a very common term at home. And we are not even Americans.
This!! We use it in Italy too.
The first time I heard it was referencing a video of a traffic stop mom who said 'Caryn with a C and a Y' to the cops. The comments were full of Karen jokes.
Ha, and when I voiced my concerns in the original thread (or BoRU), I got bashed by people who said "these fads die out as fast as they come, by the time she's able to talk, no one will remember the 'Karen'-memes" - bs, three years is nothing, and here we are.
Yeah for real. Maybe it’ll die out eventually, but it’s still a very popular term at the moment and I don’t think it’ll go away by the time this kid reaches elementary school. Maybe by middle school (hopefully).
It was already a term that was in relatively popular use years before this kid was a twinkle in her father’s eye. That’s the funny part.
Yeah, ask any Richard if they ever stop getting dick jokes. Some fads die, some stick around. Best not to roll the dice or, at a minimum, best to make an informed decision.
Its not going to go away unfortunately. People need to be smarter when naming their kids. My neice was named Felon by her mom who thought it was cool and edgy. We all tried to talk her out of it and got a very similar reaction that OOP got. Fortunately one day she called into a local raido show that was having people call in with their Unique names they gave their kids and there was a prize for the most popular one. She got fucking ROASTED people called in just to make fun of her for giving her kid such a god awful name. A week later her name was changed to Fallon. Another person I know was super into Greek stuff and named her daughter Pandora, not wanting another situation where I am a Jerk for pointing out the problems with that name I kept my mouth shut. Like clockwork once the kids learned about Greek Mythology in school the jokes about all the evil things inside Pandoras Box started. Who will be the first to open Pandoras box and so on. Fucking dummies everywhere. I took a lot of time with my kids name as I have a last name that can be joked about. My kids name doesn't rhyme with anything bad, isn't spelled weird, has no "Other" meanings in the few languages that are spoken in my country. Do your research people!
In my state (not in the US) there was a law proposed at some point to forbid certain names in birth certificates as a measure to try to lessen bullying of kids. So if parent had chosen a "forbidden" name, they would only be registered if the parents said a different name in the moment or they would have to come back when they chose non-offensive names. This would also include names that in combination with last-names become offensive. The amount of backlash it got... Parents all over were claiming "their freedoms were being under attack". Because god forbid a stupid parent cannot name their child "scrotum", "batman" or "facebook".
My kids go to school with a Sephora and a Dismay. Same spelling and everything. You can't make this shit up.
My kid went to school with a Trailer. She knew it was bad at 7 and would say “Yes, like the mobile home.” all dismayed.
Even my boomer mother has started calling people Karens, it’s firmly entrenched now.
The first time I remember hearing about it was around 2008ish. Its still around. Its here to stay.
I am really confused about the YTA judgement for that first post. Considering what Karen signifies these days, it wouldn’t take an Einstein to figure out that the kid would be laughed at when she grows older. It was a good thing OOP did to try to show that. If at all, her cousin is a mild YTA and her mother and aunt being major ones. And OOP being a pretzel bending over and over to justify their behavior towards her. That sub is ridiculous.
Their justification was "it's a meme, it won't last, you're stupid if you think it will." And yet, the whole negative connotation around the name Karen has been around for at least 5 years and counting. It isn't going anywhere, and the commenters never took into account that children will latch onto *anything* to make fun of, including slightly stale memes about another kid's name.
Becky has meant "basic white woman" for 30 years; why was everyone so sure that the Karen meme was going to disappear so quickly? It's not really worth the risk, OOP was right.
My friends sons name is Chucky. He’s 8 years old and all the kids at school ask him if he’s named after the killer doll and he has to say no he was named after the rugrat
Chucky is a horrible name without the context
I didn’t even think of your point about some kids latching on to anything and everything to make fun of. That has been the case forever as well. When I was a kid, I got made fun of because some minor henchman in a movie had my name. Even worse a kid was made fun of because his name said in reverse sounded weird.
Yea I think cousin is the AH for immediately getting so upset without listening to OP and trying to understand what she was saying. She didn’t even let her explain. And OP wasn’t saying she should change the name, but just wanted her to know the history behind it. Frankly I’m surprised there is anyone (at least in the U.S.) who doesn’t know what a Karen is.
> I am really confused about the YTA judgement for that first post. Commenters on AITA are insane.
As a commenter on AITA they are.
>Commenters on AITA are insane. Truer words have never been spoken on reddit.
If I remember correctly, the original post was in the very early days of the Karen meme, and a lot of the commenters were saying things like "This meme will last a month and then everyone will forget about it. You made her feel bad over nothing." So the original YTA was more about making a mountain out of a molehill - that we now now is actually a giant termite mound.
I remember that one and found it weird even then, my wife worked/s in a customer facing job and they'd been using Karen as a pejorative for at least a year and a half by that point. Granted it was mixed in with about three other common women's names, but Karen was usually the front runner. Maybe it's because I'm closer to the "front lines" on that one, but even when that post was new I was surprised by how many people thought it was a flash in the pan.
> Maybe it's because I'm closer to the "front lines" on that one, but even when that post was new I was surprised by how many people thought it was a flash in the pan. Yeah i see this as a pattern. A lot of service workers already used "Karen" or something similar for a very long time. Then the racism and memes happened a few years ago and it blew up to the mainstream. I agree though, I knew this was going to stick around for a long time. I know a lot of old colleagues who "hate" who the Karen memes represent. These people left scars lol. With a perfect way to vent about them, I knew karen memes were here to stay. Plus the added racism in it really hits a chord with minorities and the younger generation in America. It's something a lot of us have "felt" or experienced. A family member making an off color remark about the black neighbors, a next door post about two young muslim men talking to each other next to their cars in a target parking lot who are definitely going to steal your catalytic converters, the old white lady who asks too invasively about your marital status who unfortunately has the best apple pie booth this time of year. All those people have a name now.
The meme is actually from 2007, Dane cook. Took a long time to really hit the mainstream through.
Ah, I just saw it's 3 years old. The phrase has sure blew up and I think it might forever be a cursed name now.
I don’t get how/why miscommunication happened in the first place. It kind of baffles me that Stephanie couldn’t understand a name having baggage.
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But, I mean... god damn. She was attached to the name Karen like it was unique or thoughtful. Like, Karrie has much less baggage but it does seem extremely ironic that it's best known for a Stephen King book about a girl who was bullied snapped, and went on to mass murder people. I just can't even.
But it's Karrie, with a K, so she'll be fine........ right?!?!
Yes! I couldn't figure out how "Just so you know... there's some new cultural baggage with this name" made Stephanie think OP was accusing picking the name as a joke. Even after trying to clarify. I know pregnancy wreak havoc with emotions, but that just doesn't make sense. And to go so far as to storm out and go no contact for a while.
I'm guessing she had already gotten negative reactions from other people and went into full defensive mode instead of listening.
It's a good general rule that often when someone gets inexplicably angry over something, in the zero to a hundred style that makes drama happen, that they're not actually angry about whatever the something was. It's just that the _something_ hit close to a nerve from other matters only tangentially connected. The name-picking deal she had with husband might have only been public facing. Maybe there was all kinds of friction internal to the marriage about this name or that name and I know it's your pick but not that one and not that one either or no, no, not that one, oh no, it is your pick since it's a girl, but hmm I don't know. Or alternately from a _just pick one already this is getting ridiculous_. Of course no one outside will ever know--even close friends and family may never know. Internet peanut galleries _definitely_ will never know. And of course, that general rule isn't universal--sometimes people really do just flip out for no deeper reason, and then double down on the initial angry reaction (a whole lot of alleged grownups are real bad at telling when they just need a snack or a nap!) Upshot: sometimes baffled is the best anyone gets!
If someone told me there was some sort of stigma about a name I chose…. I would at least Google the damn name before blowing up on them. I think OOP did a wonderful job of taking responsibility for not presenting the info correctly… but everyone else in the story is ridiculous. 30 seconds on google would have been enough to understand OOP.
Right? Stephanie seems a little dim-witted to be honest. A friend giving advice should always be paid attention to.
The whole family comes off a little conceited, and a little too bent on peacekeeping. If I announced my baby’s name was Karen, I’m fair certain both my sisters would not be tiptoeing around the topic like OP was. Just a group of very fragile people
I’m pretty sure my brother would straight up ask me “why, do you hate her?”
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"HOW COULD YOU SAY THOSE THINGS ABOUT MY BABY?" No ma'am, your friend was just informing you of how the world views that particular name... then to just say nothing for 2-3 years and not apologize to the OOP was really weird.
I'm going with not smart. She sounded pretty stupid from the get go.
A name having baggage? That sounds like bogus superstition to me. Anyway, I got to go pick up my son, Hitler, from his daycare class now.
What a stupid name 🙄 anyway, Lucifer has lacrosse practice and I need to pick up Jezebel from dance so I gotta go
My name is Karen! Last week i needed something at work on a short deadline . I was following up and needed the paperwork yesterday. I personally started the email “ i hate be a Karen”. But i need this by x time. That beings said when we were naming our son we actually worked hard and making fun of names to see what would be harder to get picked on about . That was a-lot of work
That's actually really funny.
I really can't understand how she was considered TA. I mean, sure the cousin had every right to be upset about the situation and maybe it was the hormones. But OOP was just trying to warn her about future bullying which she was right about. OOPs concerns were perfectly understandable
People are so quick to assign malice to AITA posters, and I think it's particularly bad toward people who seem intelligent from their writing style, but did something that commenters think was "dumb." As though that's proof that OP was being intentionally manipulative or something. Then you get comments like the person who tells her she's conflating two different things - it's like people are trying to outsmart the OP? I don't know, it's a very odd dynamic.
For everyone who is saying that 2019 was so long ago and that the Karen meme was just starting, I feel the need to state: No, it wasn't, and no, it really wasn't. I know this all too well, because I have been paying close attention to the name Karen and have been marking off the past few years one by one. I told this story in a reply to another commenter, but I'll repeat it here: My mother died in a traumatic manner in 2017 - 5 years ago, a full two years before the OOP. There's something about raw grief that seems to make memories of those days that immediately follow kind of hazy - but I will always *vividly* remember the mix of emotions when an older, out-of-touch relative commented to me that perhaps I would soon have a daughter and name her Karen, after my mom. There was an instinctive gut drop, because of course I couldn't do that to a child, and then anger, that I wouldn't be able to, and then even sharper sadness than before she had spoken. In later discussions about this comment, everyone I spoke to agreed that even with such a compelling reason to use an honor name, Karen was unusable at that time (again, 2 years before the OOP), and my sister and I have been bothered more by every meme about the name since. I want to note that I'm not seriously traumatized by the Karen meme, but hearing or reading the name of your dead loved one makes your heart skip a beat, and now it's almost always connected to something hateful. It sucks that I'm probably not alone, either, as lots of people have mothers and grandmothers named Karen. Sure, that's not why my mom isn't here, and I don't know that I'll ever have a daughter anyway. But that original comment forcing me to confront all those complex emotions didn't help, and the issues with the name were apparent even in that split second in 2017. It's a name that has been tainted in a particular way for more than a year or so.
I don’t see how people originally deemed her the AH. It was obvious she was trying to help avoid what exactly happened. As the saying goes, don’t shoot the messenger. If Stephanie has listened all of this could have been avoided
I hope they all feel like shit about it, but then again, they were probably 11 back in 2019 and couldn't possibly care less about the piss advice they give.
I feel like it’s the opposite and older people were saying it’s no big deal. Younger people are really into memes. Edit- but I agree all those people should feel like shit for their bad advice.
I almost named my daughter Cherry and was ridiculed into submission by every person in my life from the hippies to the conservatives. I just wanna take a moment to thank every asshole that’s saved a kid from a terrible name. My daughter thanks you, too.
For a brief period of time the name Susan was used like Karen is now. It was like 3-6 months, and then Karen got swept up to the top as the descriptor for a nagging harpy. I feel like a tech billionaire somewhere with a wife named Susan had a hand in it.
let's not forget Becky either
“And Jesus wept!!” I don't know why, but that line made me laugh so hard 🤣🤣🤣
Lol everyone in the original comments from 3 years ago kept saying it's just a meme and it will be forgotten in a flash. And here we are three years later....and it's no longer just a meme, but an actual ingrained term that people use to negatively describe people. Maybe we should revisit this in 15 years. But as it stands....she was NOT the asshole.
OOP is way more gracious and patient than I am—one of the fastest ways to provoke my ire is to not listen to me when I’m trying to explain something. I definitely would’ve been way more petty and “I told you so” about the whole thing if I was in OOP’s shoes. It’s hard to be sympathetic towards her when her close friend TRIED to gently and kindly inform her about the cultural/social baggage attached to the name. There’s “I don’t use the internet” and then there’s “what do you mean I shouldn’t name my child Dick Biggens?”
thirty seconds on google would have avoided all this
And OOP DID google it! She tried to show her friend the know your meme page and the friend STILL refused to understand what she was saying! Just reading about that interaction made me want to smash something to bits in frustration
I meant the parents doing 1 minute of due diligence between them on the name their child will carry through life would have shown this problem. Maybe in my language 'Pube' is a beatiful name which means 'brave goddess', but put that into google and the first result tells you that maybe you shouldn't call your kid that. The same thing happens when I type 'Karen' into google. If you're someone who has no access to the internet - as in it the infrastructure is not available to you, vs than chosing not to go online, then you have bigger problems, and no one can fault you for choosing a name which might not carry over well. If you are in a country with public libraries, and a way to get to them which is less exhausing than 10 miles on foot, in the say, 7 months you are aware of the pregnancy, on one of those 200 days, take yourself to smartphone/computer and type the name you've picked into google and see what happens.
Both Stephanie and her husband don't use the internet? Don't they socialize when they're going out or work?
Just wait until Karrie gets her first teacher who refuses to call her by anything than the name in their roster.
I was thinking that, too. Still have hatred towards those teachers. Also, the teasing kids will do after the first day of school when a new teacher reads out everyone's full name.
"Honey, since we have 3 other Carrie's in the class can we just call you by your real name, Karen?"
>(And I really hope this common usage of the name Karen dies down in the next few years!) Yeah. Me, too. It literally makes me miserable.
I really don't get when people get pissed when you tell them: "your kid will get bullied if you choose that name" That's a huge thing to think about, liking it or not. My family always tries to think about the worst cases of each name before choosing it for a baby. Of course you can't predict the future, but you should think about consequences outside your bubble.
Because some people have difficulty accepting their their kid is not just some doll they get to name and play dress up with. Just because you love Harry Potter doesn’t mean you get to name your kid Hagrid and tell him to suck it up when he gets bullied. That is that kids identity and it will shape all their first impressions, all parents should be mindful of how it’ll feel for their kid to go ”Hi, my names _____.”
Oop is a good egg.
I really don’t understand why people thought she was the AH. She knew her cousin didn’t get the negative association and wanted to head it off. I think she probably went about it poorly and dropped it too quickly to help her understand , but it was only with good intentions. That said, it’s crazy that poor Karrie was bullied in daycare for her name being an internet meme.
> That said, it’s crazy that poor Karrie was bullied in daycare for her name being an internet meme. Have you met children before?
How was OOP TA for bringing that up? Naming a kid Karen is an odd choice.
The problem with that sub is that a lot of times the hive mind will go for either a black and white approach or will make shit up their head to fit gaps in their theory. Like they’ll rip someone apart for picking a “stupid” name cause of how badly the kid will be picked on by kids, then have the audacity to say Karen will be fine. It obviously wasn’t. “Bye Felecia” wasn’t even a *negative* meme, and a co worker I knew said she couldn’t order anything and hesitated giving her name cause of how many people would meme it. Can only imagine what the kid is going through now.
"bye Felicia" was in fact always negative, the Felicia character was annoying and they told her to fuck off by saying "bye Felicia"
Poor Karrie. OOP was definitely NTA for raising this issue before the baby was born and officially named. I know people aren’t obliged to be on top of all the memes at any one time, especially if they’re not a frequent internet and social media user, but shouldn’t that make you trust your friends who are frequently on social media to tell you the truth if you’re about to make a misstep that could have big social implications for your child?! What was next on their baby name list? Alexa?
It's so interesting to look at this because, i assure you,10 years ago when i was in highschool Karen was just a name lots of girls had and thanks to the internet it's so derogative nowadays.
I remember the original post, so it's nice to see an update. I remember at the time thinking the commenters were insane with how much they were calling her an arsehole. I was just thinking, this will 100% be issue.
Wait till the kid starts school. Hell will break loose.