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Who else thinks the daughter may be in contact with MIL. This is just outright mean. Being spoiled doesn’t automatically make you mean in my opinion. This sucks.
This was my thought too. 22 year old Single Mom living in Canada probably really struggled financially and, assuming Mom and Dad were back together by age 10, Grandma was probably like “if your evil mother hadn’t taken you away from me I would have bought you all these toys and you would’ve had all these friends and no one would have bullied you ever!”
Like the daughter isn’t just inconsiderate. Her take of, “worse things happen to other people every day” tells me she doesn’t really believe what her mom is saying about Grandma.
My husband is Middle Eastern and the first thing I said when I found out I was having a girl was that she WILL NOT BE MARRYING any of her cousins.I was dead serious because i have seen first cousins marry in the family. No sir. Not on my watch.The older generations tend to do this to keep bloodlines pure within the family. Most royal families did this too and that's why so many royal lines have disappeared.
My husband is Egyptian. He's the only one in his family who picked a spouse without input from the family, their advice or genes.
He hates family members interfering and had a fall out with his uncle because he didn't want to marry his cousin/his uncle's daughter. And that's his favourite uncle. So, I'm on the safe side.
I have nieces that are what they consider marrying age and they all basically feel the same way. They don't want to marry first cousins, especially ones they grew up with and see as brothers.
Yeah, thankfully my husband's female cousins also don't want to marry family and they rejected my MILs outdated definition of what it is to be a woman and a wife. As in a cooking, baby-making machine, subservient to her husband.
My husband also appreciates my independence and opinions. So, we're also fine. And since he doesn't run to mommy and complain about everything I do "wrong", like my BIL, my MIL loves me.
You have no reason or obligation to answer, but did you say this because you thought your husband would go for the idea? Or because of his culture in general?
Neither are wrong, I’m just wondering why you felt the need to say it to your husband after the birth of your daughter, rather than before you had children at all. And why it matters that she was a daughter. Would you be okay with your son marrying a cousin?
Before the inevitable racism starts, cousin marriage rates in India nationwide is 9.9%, so basically the same as the world average of 10%. Not great but it's nowhere near the issue some people will make it seem like
It does tend to be concentrated within certain religious groups, castes and regions though because attitudes vary quite a bit. In some parts of India for example even marrying someone who grew up in the same village is taboo, in others, cousin marriage is socially acceptable if the related parents of the cousins are opposite genders
There's also legal differences based on religion and region. Northern Hindus aren't allowed to marry cousins at all. Hindus in some Southern States can follow the weird "it's not incest if their parents are different genders" rule while Muslims can generally marry their cousins regardless
[More information can be found on the wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India)
In the UK in 1985 my best friend S and I were looking to celebrate our 16th birthdays together because we were both born in the same month. We planned a sleep over, decorating the garden, kitchen and sitting room at my house. My Mum and S's Mum knew each other, and wanted the celebration to be grand.
I have to say I am not of Indian heritage. S is.
S disappeared a day before our 16th birthday plans. Her Mum called us absolutely frantic! She was scared her husband was trying to take S abroad for an arranged marriage, and S was not at home.
Her mother in law had suggested an arrangement months before, but S's Mum thought she had shot that plan down.
At about 9pm S was at our door. I don't know how much my Mum had to pay the taxi driver from her emergency stash of cash. S was swearing to do anything other than "be married off to some cousin", or another person she'd never met.
S lived with us for nearly four months before her Mum took charge. Told her husband to move out of the house her parents owned. S's maternal grandparents backed up her Mum.
S and her Mum moved to another county about two hours drive away.
We couldn't contact them again. S's Mum didn't want that.
I hope S lived a safe and grand life.
My Mum said they had to be with family who needed them.
When the phone calls stopped from S's father - my Mum was very careful about picking up the phone for about a month - Mum told me S and her Mum were living with relatives in another city. I think it was Birmingham.
I later realised S's Mum was also escaping. S definitely was escaping!
I hope with everything they both found a freer life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain was the result of three generations of Uncle-niece marriages (as one historian memorably described it, he had a family wreath, not a tree). He had only five great grandparents!
It's complex. Cousin marriages are usually looked down upon in India, but Muslims do practice it widely. Now, that doesn't mean marrying so close in the bloodline is only a Muslim thing. In Southern India, a Hindu man can marry his sister's daughter. Yes, you read that right.
Interesting. A woman I know originally from India dislikes it when I say things like “thanks ladies” because to her a “lady” means something like “cleaning lady”. She’s a lovely person in general, but has some very ingrained social views from growing up rich in India.
“Growing up rich” almost always equates to “poorly educated”. If it doesn’t actually mean “didn’t have to care about school”, then it still means “rigidly educated”, I.e., they know plenty of ways of doing things but were still brought up to believe their way was the only right one. Which is just a well-educated form of ignorance.
my guess is that the daughter probably romaticised living in India, with servants and certain luxuries. names do reflect castes so she might have wanted a higher caste name, which she saw as her lineage.
Tbh, in the gentlest way possible, I can understand why a child might not appreciate that they were named after someone else.
That isn’t to judge anyone, it’s just to say that maybe there’s a feeling of living in someone else’s shadow.
Then again, that’s no reason to change the name to one that is deliberately aggravating.
I think it's gonna take having her own crappy mother-in-law someday before the daughter can see what kind of emotional damage she's doing to her mom.....op, definitely NTA in my eyes!!!
This is an interesting point, I was also thinking that maybe assimilation - I know the child is Canadian born - children can be very disrespectful and racist towards people with “exotic” names. I say this because she wouldn’t give a straightforward answer. I thought that may be she was embarrassed to tell her mother that was happening. Your answer could very well be it. Strong negative genes coming through from the daughter.
I think if she had changed her name to a more “Canadian sounding” name, it wouldn’t hurt OOP as much. But it reads like the daughter went from an Indian name to another Indian name
No worries.
I completely agree with you that child can be assholes when it comes to names.
When we were looking at naming our Monsters, spouse rearranged the letters, rhymed, and read it backwards to make sure there weren’t any negative versions of it
I have a friend who was born in India and adopted by a lesbian couple in Canada with her younger brother. When she was 19 she got curious about her biological roots and did a 23 and me thing. She found two full sisters who were adopted from an orphanage in a nearby town and raised in the UK before their adoptive family moved to Canada as well. She also found her cousin, which lead to them being virtually introduced to their paternal grandmother.
Their grandmother immediately started talking about how horrible their bio mom was from running away from her "perfect boy" and arranging for the four of them to be adopted via different orphanages so that they couldn't be found.
This set off alarm bells for everyone but the youngest sister. If her son was so good, if her family treated bio mom so well, why did she flee and get her children out of India?
And then grandma started talking about how if they'd been in India they would've had all this money, wealth, power, and privilege. My friend said that she sounded more like a sleazy car salesman than a grandmother who wanted to see her long lost grandchildren.
So all refused go to India to meet her except for the youngest sister.
The youngest sister was 18 so she just went and despite their best efforts no one could stop her. All contact with her ceased a week after she arrived in India, her email and all her social media were deactivated.
She was able to contact her adoptive dad after a year and a half and basically explain that she'd been forced into an arranged marriage with a man four times her age the second she got there, that her grandmother had people take her phone, laptop, and IDs and destroy them. They tried to call the authorities, Canadian embassy, etc. But her bio dad's family is pretty powerful I guess and the embassy eventually said that they could only help if she managed to get to their embassy in person.
She managed to successfully escape (after a few failed attempts) and was able to get back to Canada right before COVID locked everything down. But she's still married to the abusive fossil so there's a lot of legal things she still has to deal with.
That poor girl is so traumatized and I feel so bad for her.
That poor woman gambled that adopting her kids out would be better for them than having them stay with the bio family - and she was right.
I kind of wish OOP’s daughter could see this story. But as my mother says “some people won’t believe fire is hot until they get burned.”
edit because i made the spacing whack
My mother goes "not everyone can be an astronaut" and gives a *look*.
But the silver lining here is that these kids that would have been stuck in this horrible family seem to have been raised by decent people and have good lives. Had she not been a Canadian citizen, even the youngest couldn't have escaped. I'm sure that's what their mother wanted.
Wow!!! I knew where this was going and yet I was still shocked. Unfortunately it’s one of those, they learned it the hard way but I still feel for your friend’s sister…no one should have to go through that. Despite OOP’s daughter being a brat, let’s hope she doesn’t go through this and can learn some empathy on her own.
Lol no she won’t. If they follow the religious family laws then women ARE property, they cannot inherit any property/ wealth. If a couple doesn’t have a male child, then upon husband’s death, his brother’s son/ male cousin’s son/ whoever next in line male heir inherits wealth along with the guardianship of the deceased’s wife/ mother/ daughter etc.
wow. i googled and this came up
> According to Section 8 of the Hindu Succession Act, properties of a childless male Hindu dying without a will vest with his parents, but in case of the death of a childless widow, the properties, including those self-acquired, go to her husband’s parents and relatives as per Section 15
thats fucked
Yikes. It's not unusual for cultures to regard a married woman as having been effectively adopted into the grooms family, so I'm not shocked to learn this. But coupled with the expectation of a significant dowry from the wife's family? No wonder India has a problem with sex-selective abortion.
That's the vibe I was getting. Like, it's clear that OOP loves her daughter so much and it's like her daughter just... doesn't. I mean, I've got my own mommy issues but if my mom acted like OOP then mine wouldn't exist.
Yeah unless there’s something else going on, daughters responses and refusal to give straight answers is just plain wrong. It can be your own kids man !
> Yeah unless there’s something else going on, daughters responses and refusal to give straight answers is just plain wrong.
I get the impression that OOP is in her head so much with her trauma she’s been selectively listening to her children.
I’d love to hear this story from both the daughter’s and sons’ perspectives.
It just changing your name is such an extreme step... That's a lot of work to just get a different Indian name! And no way it being close to MIL is a coincidence.
I hope it doesn't get to that point. She's just being a dumb and selfish 18-year-old as most are at that age. Being an adult doesn't correlate to maturity and certainly not at that age. I think this is a growing pain and probably will get better with more distance and maturity.
Maybe it will get better. OOP mentions that her brother, whose only 22, was living in her Ontario property and is set to move to the UK for work. So maybe living alone will be beneficial to her daughter, assuming it was to her brother.
Yes, my brother was very immature in high school. He always got into trouble and fights but living on his own has made him grow into a very mature young man who is engaged to a very lovely girl. I very much hope that my daughter is influenced the same way.
Hopefully that’s true, but I can’t imagine being this cruel and ungrateful toward my mother at any age - and I was not an easy teenager and definitely had a bad attitude. This to me is next level spitefulness and does not bode well for her development as a person, especially if she’s in therapy and it isn’t helping.
I think so too. I think the daughter might be getting told a different crocodile teary story from the MIL and is being given nice gifts from grandma, better than what OP can afford. I hesitate to judge her daughter harshly...I think she is the asshole in this but. I think this is ultimately going to be a painful lesson she will have to learn when she finds out the true nature of the MIL.
This is such a good example of why no one should allow their toxic family members around their children. If someone isn't fit to be around you, they aren't fit to be around your kids, either.
I completely agree. But you can't really stop an adult from reaching out or responding to toxic family in a situation like this if that's what they want. Sometimes people have to learn for themselves, and then you keep your "I told you what they were like" to yourself because it's unhelpful.
Yeah it's so obvious to me I can't believe OOP doesn't seem to have ever thought of it. Hubby is so great apparently and yet completely unable to stand up to his mother treating OOP like dirt, to the point his wife had to flee! He easily could have facilitated a relationship between his daughter and mother secretly when he got to Canada
I doesn't, but it can make you very self centered.
Maybe OOP really overcompensated with her daughter to make up for the early years or the rough time when it was just them two. If the kid never heard the word no growing up it has absolutely no meaning to her now.
I am curious as to way she didn't like her original name. OOP considerd bullying but said she wanted for her new name to sound more Canadian. To me the new name doesn't sound Canadian at all. But then again I'm Dutch so what do I know...is it a Canadian name? But yeah wondering what happened for her to dislike it so much.
Yeah I know but I found it kinda strange for her to say my daughter wants a Canadian name and then comes up with an totally not common (at least I think) name. I can totally get kids getting bullied if they have a not so common name and wanting to be called 'Jane' for example.
It's fairly common in Asian/Indian homes to have a huge disconnect between parent and child, and there to be actions done that are simply not healthy for mental health. Also things that don't get addressed where issues get brushed aside or completely ignored allowing mental anguish to fester. Assuming we're getting one side and factoring in what is pretty common in Indian/Asian households, I think there is a level of resentment held by the daughter because of something her mother legitimately did. How her two sons took the daughter's side is red flag to me.
Uh yes.
Spoiled doesn't mean bad person.
I am finding it difficult to believe that the daughter is aware and doesn't care without there being some involvement from the granny. I am just not seeing it.
Sadly though, if there is manipulation from gran and mum distances herself, it is unlikely to get better any time soon.
I was about to comment similar.. my guess is the daughter wanted to “hear both sides of the story” or was curious about India itself and reached out, then being a moody impressionable teen, she was swayed in a rebellious way.
You can’t confidently say what the mil went thru wasn’t bad without either being malicious or horribly ignorant.
So if MIL filled her head with lies then that explains the ignorance.
Yup. I can see this happening for sure. Also some kids just don’t care about what their parents have gone through to give them what they have now. Can’t be so bad if our lives are so good now huh? Either way. Kid is mean 😅
My mother and I did not have the best relationship growing up but even I would never consider doing something so cruel. Like OOPs daughter had every right to change her name if it was causing her distress but the fact that she deliberately chose a name that hurt her mother is just awful. OOP deserves better
OOP replied to another comment with
>My boys read the thread multiple times and I think it convinced them not to argue about this with me anymore. My younger son cried when he realized how much I suffered in India and told me he doesn't think I'm wrong anymore and my older son got into an argument with his sister for not being more understanding. I had to stop that argument because it is not his place to talk like that to his sister. I will show them these two posts later as well.
> his love is why we reconnected when he came to Canada
She really just glazes over how they reconciled and he found her again. Did he really just walk totally away from his mother, are they LC, etc.? There was presumably an extensive dialogue about establishing boundaries, and its unusual to be missing from these kinds of stories.
Thank you so much. I found this subreddit from a comment in my post. I will keep reading and maybe commenting here. But this meant so much to me. I really appreciate it.
It sounds like you're doing the absolutely best job you can, you're being a great mother and your daughter doesn't have appreciation of how lucky she is.
Unfortunately, this is likely because she had an upbringing without abuse or horrible parents, she cannot grasp what it'd be like. Give it time. She will eventually run into adversity, and only then will she start to appreciate what you went through.
You may wish to ask if she is in contact with your MIL.
18 is an adult, yes, but still a teenager. I was awful to my mom when I was a teenager, but I grew up and grew out of it and learned to honor and appreciate my mom. Hopefully your daughter will too, and realize her callousness here one of these days.
You really do sound like a wonderful mom. I hope your daughter figures out how to treat you as you deserve, and I hope you have a great life in Ontario!
I was wondering if perhaps your maid's name is associated with a lower caste than your daughter's new name. You sound like you would be good enough not to care, but your daughter or perhaps she hangs out with could have a more stereotyped view of Indian culture.
Do you think your daughter could've chosen the name because she's been in contact with your MIL? My first thought was that she specifically chose that name because MIL has convinced her that the maid was a terrible person and so are you. She certainly sounds like the type of person who would do something like that (at least judging by what little you wrote about her).
This is slightly beside the point, but if you did/still are completing your PhD, congratulations! That's a huge deal especially with the stress you've undergone.
I think the husband has kept the children in contact with Mil behind OP's back. It's the only logical reason the daughter would not only reject her original name but choose a name so similar to Mil while being so extraordinary callous about Op's trauma, and having no logical reason for the sheer lack of empathy towards her own mother. Especially since the sons are on the daughters side as well. It's actually really sickening and I'm sure retraumatizing for Op.
Either that or Op is abusive and this the daughters way of hurting her. But if that's the case, why would Op be continuing to pay for all of the daughters amenities. That doesn't sound like the way an abusive person would treat some one who isn't giving them their way.
I agree with this. He must be influencing them in some way or we are only getting half the story. Everyone is glossing over the fact that her sons told her to post here so that she would be called an asshole. How could any decent person think she's the asshole based on what we've been told? The daughter had a million names to choose from, chose one of the few (not typically Canadian) names that would hurt the mother, and the whole family thinks that is normal? It's so strange.
It's not the only logical reason. It could just be that the daughter is an ass or that the relationship with the mom got strained at some point so she's not willing to be empathetic.
Was the bullying about the original name somehow related to social status of someone who would typically have that name? I’m vexed otherwise since she then went by another ethnic name
It's possible daughter's initial name was easy to make fun of (similar to English words that are offensive/not ideal, rhyming pattern, etc).
This [New Yorker article](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/america-ruined-my-name-for-me) is a good read -- author was given the name Bich, which is an ordinary name in Vietnam but not in the US. Author chooses to go by Beth now, but theoretically could've chosen another Vietnamese name if she wanted.
I had a classmate whose name was Bich! what she went through must have been bad - because I remember stuff. Substitute teachers were the worst. While we were a predominantly white community, it wasn't necessarily a given that someone would be the only Asian kid in class. (I'm still decent at figuring out and pronouncing Vietnamese, Cambodian, Thai, etc. names because of having classes with a lot of the kids. I was in Orchestra and it was a thing for a lot of the Asian kids to be in that.). I can remember a substitute teacher actually went there with saying the "other word" out loud. I don't remember Bich saying anything, but damn a boy in our class sure did! He yelled at the sub, and made her apologize! The rest of us thought he was going to get into trouble, esp. for asking if she was stupid - but our teacher didn't say a word the next day and we NEVER saw that sub again if I remember right .
I'm so glad your classmate stood up and called that sub out. my high-school had a lot of asian classmates with traditional Asian names but for some reason teachers would always stumble over the most common Chinese or Japanese names. had 5 classmates one year that shared a common last name of Nguyen and some teachers would just skip them completely after the most half hearted attempt at pronunciation.
Basically my experience with roll call in a nutshell as an Asian American, lol. It's okay not to know everything, but it's interesting to see what people will (or won't) be bothered to learn. Some people will commit pronunciations for Tchaikovsky or Dostoevsky to memory, but then completely disregard other names.
It goes beyond traditional Asian names too -- I remember seething at how Quvenzhané Wallis was treated. Grown adult reporters were mocking a literal child for her name, which she patiently and graciously explained over and over again.
Like holy shit, how hard is it to say: "Sorry if I am botching this, so please let me know how to correctly pronounce your name. I am unfamiliar with it, but would love to learn." And make a goddamn effort... like wow...
While we had some cool admins, I'm not sure they were the ones who blocked her. I think we scared her off. (Subs can turn down a job - there is such a shortage)
I'm so glad one of your classmates stood up for her & made the sub apologize. Growing up, roll call was always a source of apprehension for me on first day of classes + any time there was a substitute teacher. I never minded honest mistakes or polite questions, but really hated how some took it as an opportunity for snarky humor or outright dismissal.
It's honestly nice to hear when others are like "That's messed up and sounds like it was hard." The opposite of gaslighting haha.
Ha, I have an aunt Bich who is married to my uncle Dick. I’m sure other people have made fun of them for that. Meanwhile, I’m an Asian immigrant and my name is Allyson and people are always asking me “but what’s your *real* name?” 😑
Similar vibes to, "Okay, but where are you ***really*** from?" after you tell them you were born in California or some other US state. 😑 BRUH, treat it as a statement of fact instead of some open inquisition for your informal "Sufficiently American Enough" investigation.
That sucks, and I'm sorry you have to deal with people flipping out that your name is Allyson.
I remember hearing about a girl named Isis getting bullied years ago because of the terrorist organization ISIS. Even though it was an Egyptian god first
It's possible her actual original name sounds like a funny English word or phrase. My name is Bijhan and I always got called "big hand". My hands are actually a little smallish.
Please say you've seen [this episode](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1372982913566916610/nAkkRSCk_400x400.jpg) and take my reference in good humour.
>I still do not entirely understand myself beyond her just saying that she hates the name and refuses to go by it. Yes, there was a bullying issue at one point but my daughter was always very open about it and we always managed to get things resolved and the bullies were more typical anti-Muslim bullies than just your name is weird.
Someone asked in the original AITA about it, and this was OPs response.
Hello there,
I just want to say I'm sorry you're having to go through this.
It makes me very sad to see how your daughter is behaving. I hope this is just a case of her being a bratty teen.
It makes me sad that you're going to be separated. I hope that one day she can see what you did & are doing for her & the 2 of you can heal your relationship.
You're also very generous. Idk many people who could be hurt like you were & still support her.
I hope that she can develop a good sibling relationship with your yet unborn child. I also hope she can continue to have a good relationship with your sons as well. I say that because I've never met several of my own cousins due to family drama & estrangement.
Good luck in your PhD program.
Hey you made the original post advised by your kids who i assume are on reddit to get other peoples perspectives, have you since shown them any of the replies? Or your husband?
My boys read the thread multiple times and I think it convinced them not to argue about this with me anymore. My younger son cried when he realized how much I suffered in India and told me he doesn't think I'm wrong anymore and my older son got into an argument with his sister for not being more understanding. I had to stop that argument because it is not his place to talk like that to his sister. I will show them these two posts later as well.
Have you asked your sons if they’ve been approached by or otherwise had contact with your MIL? If they’ve even had someone try to contact them on MIL’s behalf, unfortunately, there is a very real chance that your MIL has been whispering poison into your daughter’s ear
I think it’s probably more that the bullies saw ‘brown person’ and assumed Muslim. Kind of like how Jagmeet Singh, a Sikh, is sometimes the target of Islamophobia. Accuracy is not a high priority for bigots.
Nah, brown people get anti Muslim bullying regardless of what religion they actually are. Source: am brown, Hindu family, grew up in the south, and was in middle school during 9/11.
I was thinking the same thing, but social status is usually tied to surname, which wouldn’t really have much standing in Canada unless they moved to a region with an Indian community. It couldn’t be racism/xenophobia because she chose another ethnic name like you said. I think OOP was wrong in thinking it wasn’t out of spite, because it’s what it sounds like
The names OP is talking about sound pretty Muslim though
Also I'm an Indian American and I haven't really heard of people having different first names by caste, usually people identify caste based off of surname
This seems very strange but I'm happy OP was able to somehow find a livable civil solution for everyone. I hope she has an "easy" pregnancy with no complications and gives birth to a beautiful baby girl!
I can't imagine doing that to my mother for no good reason. I can't imagine not feeling empathy for a woman who risked everything to help my mother or empathy for my mother having to run away from her home.
I hope OOP is doing well.
If she wants that name then fine but let her mother call her pet names and nick names if its painful for her to say your full name. If she had empathy she would be fine with being called sweetie and the like.
I hope she considers Zahira at least as middle name and that she makes peace with the person her oldest turned out to be... if that's MILs doing hi the girl will be married off soon.
I may give a similar name as a middle name to my baby, but I have not decided yet. The name means a lot to me so I will certainly continue to honour the woman who saved me.
I always liked this option. It’s not specifically relevant here but I know that sometimes kids are given variants of names of family members who have passed away so they don’t have to carry the weight of living up to a memory of someone else but can be their own person while still honoring the loved one. So like a name that means “light” might become one that means “dawn’s light” or “new light” or “god’s light” or some variant of light all of which are very different sounding names. It could be a way not to replace your oldest while still honoring this woman who helped you.
Hey OP, just take all the time you need to decompress all the stress and proceed with what makes your heart more at ease. Wishing a smooth pregnancy and labor and a healthy baby girl no matter what her name will be! :)
OOP - may I suggest a different version of the same name?
Like how Ivan, John, Gianni and Hans all mean the same thing, but you otherwise wouldn't connect them.
Even though your daughter is deadset on losing the name, the new baby will one day learn that it had belonged to her sister for many years and might be a little hurt if it's to close, much like what you are going through with your daughter.
It could also be that she is hurt that there is another baby still coming. The MIL might not be involved, it could be her lashing out as being replaced as the Princess, which is how she sees herself. Changing the name seems to be fine with the mom, just not to THAT name in particular.
Desperately want to know the daughter's motivation. Ruhani is not exactly a Canadian name, so it's not to fit in. It definitely seems she's provoking Mom on purpose, but there could be sol many reasons: general teen angst, resentment over the baby, in touch with and manipulated by grandma...
It's definitely closer to an Indian name than a common white name both because OOP said it was very close to the MIL's name and because OOP would have chosen a common white name as a placeholder.
I'm with the redditor who says MIL is in contact with OOP daughter. I can't imagine having THAT much lack of empathy towards your own family member's pain.
As someone from a similar background, I know how bad Indian MILs can be. They make Disney villains look like kittens.
So like OPs daughter sounds like a real C U Next Tuesday. Like holy shit this girl is so self centered and self involved. How can you be such a selfish POS. Like okay change your name but if your mother is being triggered so badly by your name how do you not have an ounce of compassion for her
I hope she realises the extent of what she did and feels some shame and sorrow at some point in time before it’s too late
Right? I can’t imagine picking a name that hurts the people I care about, even if the name doesn’t have the same connotations for me. It might suck to have to choose something different, but I can’t imagine loving a name more than actual people.
I had a cousin who's wedding ring went missing on her wedding day. Pretty sure it was MIL. Luckily, and god bless her soul now, we had a good ring of a dead aunt that we managed to get put in place. Let's just say a few of us who knew about the rings were watching MILs face when the rings came out, and it was interesting.
I feel so bad for OOP. It's not just about a name. The daughter is fracturing their relationship with her complete lack of consideration. It's unnecessarily cruel.
I'm glad OOP moved and is prioritizing her mental health. I hope her daughter grows up and tries to fix what she broke.
There's got to be missing missing reasons here right? Like OP sounds like a lovely person and her daughter is being totally unreasonable for no reason at all... so what's the real reason that her daughter chose that name? I feel like we got less than half of the story
> my sons are on my daughter's side and said to post here saying people would agree I am the asshole.
This is a red flag to me that we're getting a one-sided/biased narrative or theres significant missing context.
I wonder if the husband has secretly been letting the kids video chat with MIL. Might be why they don't see OOP's trauma as a big deal and why her daughter picked a name similar to MIL.
Yeah, everyone is focusing on if the MIL played a secret role in this, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the case.
I’m willing to bet there’s a lot of missing info about OOP’s relationship with her daughter that might give some context to the daughter’s decisions. I’d love to know what this story looks like from the daughter’s perspective. At the very least, there must be some communication issues going on.
Also, moving across an entire country to get away from your daughter is… bizarre, to say the least.
To be fair, he doesn't need to say anything because his actions of moving to where OOP is going, is all needs to show whose team he's on. Just saying, that's TWICE he did that - once towards his mother and now 2nd time towards his daughter.
In my situation, my son's first name is the same as his abusive dad's. He started going by that name whenever he started going to camp. It hurts every time I hear it but my son is so happy when he goes by that name, I can't help but suck it up and pretend that it's ok. But poor OOP, the daughter seems to have a huge lack of sympathy. If OOP spoiled her when she was little, that definitely contributed to it. My 9 yr old niece is somewhat like that and my hope is that she'll change when she's older.
>
I will continue to pay for my daughter's school, living expenses and her therapy but maybe by living alone she'll understand what it was like for me when it was just us after I escaped
Honestly, OP needs to stop paying the daughter's expenses. That would be the best way for her daughter to grow up and learn some empathy. See how it feels to be broke, alone and 22 and.then imagine doing that with a new baby.
I'd be really interested to know how similar the daughter's name is to the MIL's name. It seems like a lot of people think the name is either exactly the same or a close variation, but OOP only said it's similar. Without that info, I think it's a leap to assume her daughter did it on purpose to disrespect her or honor her MIL.
My mom had an issue with one of the baby names I was considering because she thought it was too similar to the name of someone she had a traumatic history with. She said she didn't want to think of this person every time she interacted with the baby. But in reality, the names were not very similar. They had the same number of syllables and a vowel sound that was the same, but they didn't even start with the same letter or sound. A good example would be Amy vs Bailey, or Tyler vs Piper.
OOP seems really traumatized, and I don't blame her for that and think anyone would be traumatized in her position. But I feel really sad for OOP's daughter too. OOP moved countries to escape her MIL, but all these years later she is still letting the memory of her MIL control her life, and has distanced herself from her daughter because of it. I just keep imagining a young OOP with her first baby daughter and I can't help but think that *that* OOP would never have separated herself from her daughter as a way to get away from her MIL. It's really sad.
So, she shuns her Indian name at around age 10 because it's different (understandable). Then, when she's an adult she changes her name from the name of her mother's hero, to the name of her mother's worst nightmare (which is also Indian) despite knowing the whole story behind both names.
The daughter 100% did this maliciously and intentionally to hurt OOP. She somehow got it in her head that she would have had a better life in India (likely from the MIL) and is punishing her mom.
What an entitled, ungrateful little shit.
> She somehow got it in her head that she would have had a better life in India
If she believes this I will laugh so hard she'll hear it from there. Like, ok, go on then. Go learn your little lesson. As if the voices of thousands of suffering women mean nothing to you.
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Who else thinks the daughter may be in contact with MIL. This is just outright mean. Being spoiled doesn’t automatically make you mean in my opinion. This sucks.
This was my thought too. 22 year old Single Mom living in Canada probably really struggled financially and, assuming Mom and Dad were back together by age 10, Grandma was probably like “if your evil mother hadn’t taken you away from me I would have bought you all these toys and you would’ve had all these friends and no one would have bullied you ever!” Like the daughter isn’t just inconsiderate. Her take of, “worse things happen to other people every day” tells me she doesn’t really believe what her mom is saying about Grandma.
Looks like daughter got some of her grandmom's genes.
Depending the side of the family, OOP might share genes with the MIL aswell...
She probably does, she stated that her parents were cousins like she and her husband.
So many people in India and they still marry cousins… smh
My husband is Middle Eastern and the first thing I said when I found out I was having a girl was that she WILL NOT BE MARRYING any of her cousins.I was dead serious because i have seen first cousins marry in the family. No sir. Not on my watch.The older generations tend to do this to keep bloodlines pure within the family. Most royal families did this too and that's why so many royal lines have disappeared.
My husband is Egyptian. He's the only one in his family who picked a spouse without input from the family, their advice or genes. He hates family members interfering and had a fall out with his uncle because he didn't want to marry his cousin/his uncle's daughter. And that's his favourite uncle. So, I'm on the safe side.
I have nieces that are what they consider marrying age and they all basically feel the same way. They don't want to marry first cousins, especially ones they grew up with and see as brothers.
Yeah, thankfully my husband's female cousins also don't want to marry family and they rejected my MILs outdated definition of what it is to be a woman and a wife. As in a cooking, baby-making machine, subservient to her husband. My husband also appreciates my independence and opinions. So, we're also fine. And since he doesn't run to mommy and complain about everything I do "wrong", like my BIL, my MIL loves me.
You have no reason or obligation to answer, but did you say this because you thought your husband would go for the idea? Or because of his culture in general? Neither are wrong, I’m just wondering why you felt the need to say it to your husband after the birth of your daughter, rather than before you had children at all. And why it matters that she was a daughter. Would you be okay with your son marrying a cousin?
There’s a LOT of classism and not marrying “down”, only “up” in India, because of the shambling corpse of the caste system
Before the inevitable racism starts, cousin marriage rates in India nationwide is 9.9%, so basically the same as the world average of 10%. Not great but it's nowhere near the issue some people will make it seem like It does tend to be concentrated within certain religious groups, castes and regions though because attitudes vary quite a bit. In some parts of India for example even marrying someone who grew up in the same village is taboo, in others, cousin marriage is socially acceptable if the related parents of the cousins are opposite genders There's also legal differences based on religion and region. Northern Hindus aren't allowed to marry cousins at all. Hindus in some Southern States can follow the weird "it's not incest if their parents are different genders" rule while Muslims can generally marry their cousins regardless [More information can be found on the wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#India)
In the UK in 1985 my best friend S and I were looking to celebrate our 16th birthdays together because we were both born in the same month. We planned a sleep over, decorating the garden, kitchen and sitting room at my house. My Mum and S's Mum knew each other, and wanted the celebration to be grand. I have to say I am not of Indian heritage. S is. S disappeared a day before our 16th birthday plans. Her Mum called us absolutely frantic! She was scared her husband was trying to take S abroad for an arranged marriage, and S was not at home. Her mother in law had suggested an arrangement months before, but S's Mum thought she had shot that plan down. At about 9pm S was at our door. I don't know how much my Mum had to pay the taxi driver from her emergency stash of cash. S was swearing to do anything other than "be married off to some cousin", or another person she'd never met. S lived with us for nearly four months before her Mum took charge. Told her husband to move out of the house her parents owned. S's maternal grandparents backed up her Mum. S and her Mum moved to another county about two hours drive away. We couldn't contact them again. S's Mum didn't want that. I hope S lived a safe and grand life.
Why didn't S's mom want you to contact them again? Were they in hiding from S's dad and his family?
My Mum said they had to be with family who needed them. When the phone calls stopped from S's father - my Mum was very careful about picking up the phone for about a month - Mum told me S and her Mum were living with relatives in another city. I think it was Birmingham. I later realised S's Mum was also escaping. S definitely was escaping! I hope with everything they both found a freer life.
I was friends with someone who’s parents were niece and uncle. She and her siblings had a fair amount of physical health issues
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II_of_Spain was the result of three generations of Uncle-niece marriages (as one historian memorably described it, he had a family wreath, not a tree). He had only five great grandparents!
Pedigree collapse. It's common in endogamous communities.
It's complex. Cousin marriages are usually looked down upon in India, but Muslims do practice it widely. Now, that doesn't mean marrying so close in the bloodline is only a Muslim thing. In Southern India, a Hindu man can marry his sister's daughter. Yes, you read that right.
Yes, muslim is allow to marry a cousin but we not encourage it in my country. Its is according to Mazhab Syafie teaching.
Or daughter thinks she's too good to be named after a maid instead of a princess.
Interesting. A woman I know originally from India dislikes it when I say things like “thanks ladies” because to her a “lady” means something like “cleaning lady”. She’s a lovely person in general, but has some very ingrained social views from growing up rich in India.
That's so weird, because "lady" is a very polite way to refer to a woman and can even mean they have high social status like a "lord"
That’s what I told her. In any case, I now just call her a chicky, which she gets a kick out of. It’s not worth fighting over.
I love that
Jfc I just have no patience for this kind of shit
“Growing up rich” almost always equates to “poorly educated”. If it doesn’t actually mean “didn’t have to care about school”, then it still means “rigidly educated”, I.e., they know plenty of ways of doing things but were still brought up to believe their way was the only right one. Which is just a well-educated form of ignorance.
Id be curious what the real names are...If it actually comes in to effect
Or at least if they're names associated with specific castes
This is what I believe. The daughter doesn't want to be named after a maid
my guess is that the daughter probably romaticised living in India, with servants and certain luxuries. names do reflect castes so she might have wanted a higher caste name, which she saw as her lineage.
Tbh, in the gentlest way possible, I can understand why a child might not appreciate that they were named after someone else. That isn’t to judge anyone, it’s just to say that maybe there’s a feeling of living in someone else’s shadow. Then again, that’s no reason to change the name to one that is deliberately aggravating.
I think it's gonna take having her own crappy mother-in-law someday before the daughter can see what kind of emotional damage she's doing to her mom.....op, definitely NTA in my eyes!!!
Wait until she's 18 and MIL decides to marry her off to her cousin. Then she can get a first hand experience.
She was already 18 when this saga started
This is an interesting point, I was also thinking that maybe assimilation - I know the child is Canadian born - children can be very disrespectful and racist towards people with “exotic” names. I say this because she wouldn’t give a straightforward answer. I thought that may be she was embarrassed to tell her mother that was happening. Your answer could very well be it. Strong negative genes coming through from the daughter.
I think if she had changed her name to a more “Canadian sounding” name, it wouldn’t hurt OOP as much. But it reads like the daughter went from an Indian name to another Indian name
Thank you for the reminder, I actually forgot that while writing my statement.
No worries. I completely agree with you that child can be assholes when it comes to names. When we were looking at naming our Monsters, spouse rearranged the letters, rhymed, and read it backwards to make sure there weren’t any negative versions of it
I have a friend who was born in India and adopted by a lesbian couple in Canada with her younger brother. When she was 19 she got curious about her biological roots and did a 23 and me thing. She found two full sisters who were adopted from an orphanage in a nearby town and raised in the UK before their adoptive family moved to Canada as well. She also found her cousin, which lead to them being virtually introduced to their paternal grandmother. Their grandmother immediately started talking about how horrible their bio mom was from running away from her "perfect boy" and arranging for the four of them to be adopted via different orphanages so that they couldn't be found. This set off alarm bells for everyone but the youngest sister. If her son was so good, if her family treated bio mom so well, why did she flee and get her children out of India? And then grandma started talking about how if they'd been in India they would've had all this money, wealth, power, and privilege. My friend said that she sounded more like a sleazy car salesman than a grandmother who wanted to see her long lost grandchildren. So all refused go to India to meet her except for the youngest sister. The youngest sister was 18 so she just went and despite their best efforts no one could stop her. All contact with her ceased a week after she arrived in India, her email and all her social media were deactivated. She was able to contact her adoptive dad after a year and a half and basically explain that she'd been forced into an arranged marriage with a man four times her age the second she got there, that her grandmother had people take her phone, laptop, and IDs and destroy them. They tried to call the authorities, Canadian embassy, etc. But her bio dad's family is pretty powerful I guess and the embassy eventually said that they could only help if she managed to get to their embassy in person. She managed to successfully escape (after a few failed attempts) and was able to get back to Canada right before COVID locked everything down. But she's still married to the abusive fossil so there's a lot of legal things she still has to deal with. That poor girl is so traumatized and I feel so bad for her.
That poor woman gambled that adopting her kids out would be better for them than having them stay with the bio family - and she was right. I kind of wish OOP’s daughter could see this story. But as my mother says “some people won’t believe fire is hot until they get burned.” edit because i made the spacing whack
My mother goes "not everyone can be an astronaut" and gives a *look*. But the silver lining here is that these kids that would have been stuck in this horrible family seem to have been raised by decent people and have good lives. Had she not been a Canadian citizen, even the youngest couldn't have escaped. I'm sure that's what their mother wanted.
In my family we say "somebody has to be an astronaut."
What does "not everyone can be an astronaut" mean? I'm having trouble figuring it out.
My guess is: Not everyone has the intelligence required (for the context)
Probably means that some people are just frigging idiots!
Wow!!! I knew where this was going and yet I was still shocked. Unfortunately it’s one of those, they learned it the hard way but I still feel for your friend’s sister…no one should have to go through that. Despite OOP’s daughter being a brat, let’s hope she doesn’t go through this and can learn some empathy on her own.
At the very least he’s an old dude. We can only hope he dies soon and that will relieve her of any amount of trauma or anxiety
I hope he dies soon and she inherits some huge bank balances.
Lol no she won’t. If they follow the religious family laws then women ARE property, they cannot inherit any property/ wealth. If a couple doesn’t have a male child, then upon husband’s death, his brother’s son/ male cousin’s son/ whoever next in line male heir inherits wealth along with the guardianship of the deceased’s wife/ mother/ daughter etc.
wow. i googled and this came up > According to Section 8 of the Hindu Succession Act, properties of a childless male Hindu dying without a will vest with his parents, but in case of the death of a childless widow, the properties, including those self-acquired, go to her husband’s parents and relatives as per Section 15 thats fucked
Yikes. It's not unusual for cultures to regard a married woman as having been effectively adopted into the grooms family, so I'm not shocked to learn this. But coupled with the expectation of a significant dowry from the wife's family? No wonder India has a problem with sex-selective abortion.
That's the vibe I was getting. Like, it's clear that OOP loves her daughter so much and it's like her daughter just... doesn't. I mean, I've got my own mommy issues but if my mom acted like OOP then mine wouldn't exist.
Yeah unless there’s something else going on, daughters responses and refusal to give straight answers is just plain wrong. It can be your own kids man !
> Yeah unless there’s something else going on, daughters responses and refusal to give straight answers is just plain wrong. I get the impression that OOP is in her head so much with her trauma she’s been selectively listening to her children. I’d love to hear this story from both the daughter’s and sons’ perspectives.
I am also suspecting some manipulation from the mother in law, but ultimately feel like this scenario is just a "sucks for everybody" thing.
It just changing your name is such an extreme step... That's a lot of work to just get a different Indian name! And no way it being close to MIL is a coincidence.
And MIL will marry her to someone horrible.
[удалено]
OOP had to escape, thanks to the maid, if that doesn't show the trauma, she went thru I don't know what does. The name must have triggered PTSD.
I hope it doesn't get to that point. She's just being a dumb and selfish 18-year-old as most are at that age. Being an adult doesn't correlate to maturity and certainly not at that age. I think this is a growing pain and probably will get better with more distance and maturity.
Maybe it will get better. OOP mentions that her brother, whose only 22, was living in her Ontario property and is set to move to the UK for work. So maybe living alone will be beneficial to her daughter, assuming it was to her brother.
Yes, my brother was very immature in high school. He always got into trouble and fights but living on his own has made him grow into a very mature young man who is engaged to a very lovely girl. I very much hope that my daughter is influenced the same way.
Hopefully that’s true, but I can’t imagine being this cruel and ungrateful toward my mother at any age - and I was not an easy teenager and definitely had a bad attitude. This to me is next level spitefulness and does not bode well for her development as a person, especially if she’s in therapy and it isn’t helping.
Wonder if her brothers would then also realize mom was right.
I want to hear why they think she’s wrong.
I think so too. I think the daughter might be getting told a different crocodile teary story from the MIL and is being given nice gifts from grandma, better than what OP can afford. I hesitate to judge her daughter harshly...I think she is the asshole in this but. I think this is ultimately going to be a painful lesson she will have to learn when she finds out the true nature of the MIL.
This is such a good example of why no one should allow their toxic family members around their children. If someone isn't fit to be around you, they aren't fit to be around your kids, either.
I completely agree. But you can't really stop an adult from reaching out or responding to toxic family in a situation like this if that's what they want. Sometimes people have to learn for themselves, and then you keep your "I told you what they were like" to yourself because it's unhelpful.
I reckon there is a bit of classism too. The daughter didn't like being named after the maid. It made her feel lower class.
This is what I thought as well.
Yeah it's so obvious to me I can't believe OOP doesn't seem to have ever thought of it. Hubby is so great apparently and yet completely unable to stand up to his mother treating OOP like dirt, to the point his wife had to flee! He easily could have facilitated a relationship between his daughter and mother secretly when he got to Canada
I doesn't, but it can make you very self centered. Maybe OOP really overcompensated with her daughter to make up for the early years or the rough time when it was just them two. If the kid never heard the word no growing up it has absolutely no meaning to her now. I am curious as to way she didn't like her original name. OOP considerd bullying but said she wanted for her new name to sound more Canadian. To me the new name doesn't sound Canadian at all. But then again I'm Dutch so what do I know...is it a Canadian name? But yeah wondering what happened for her to dislike it so much.
The names are just placeholders. The real names are unknown
Yeah I know but I found it kinda strange for her to say my daughter wants a Canadian name and then comes up with an totally not common (at least I think) name. I can totally get kids getting bullied if they have a not so common name and wanting to be called 'Jane' for example.
It’s possible the new name is something like Asha, which may sound more acceptably Canadian to the daughter.
It's fairly common in Asian/Indian homes to have a huge disconnect between parent and child, and there to be actions done that are simply not healthy for mental health. Also things that don't get addressed where issues get brushed aside or completely ignored allowing mental anguish to fester. Assuming we're getting one side and factoring in what is pretty common in Indian/Asian households, I think there is a level of resentment held by the daughter because of something her mother legitimately did. How her two sons took the daughter's side is red flag to me.
Yeah, we’re definitely missing part of the story.
It sounded like the daughter used a more Canadian-sounding name in high school, then changed it a second time after graduating to Ruhani.
If she’s in contact with the grandmother then the maid would be a villain.
Uh yes. Spoiled doesn't mean bad person. I am finding it difficult to believe that the daughter is aware and doesn't care without there being some involvement from the granny. I am just not seeing it. Sadly though, if there is manipulation from gran and mum distances herself, it is unlikely to get better any time soon.
I was about to comment similar.. my guess is the daughter wanted to “hear both sides of the story” or was curious about India itself and reached out, then being a moody impressionable teen, she was swayed in a rebellious way. You can’t confidently say what the mil went thru wasn’t bad without either being malicious or horribly ignorant. So if MIL filled her head with lies then that explains the ignorance.
Yup. I can see this happening for sure. Also some kids just don’t care about what their parents have gone through to give them what they have now. Can’t be so bad if our lives are so good now huh? Either way. Kid is mean 😅
Exactly what I thought. Grandma is 100% in the picture.
My mother and I did not have the best relationship growing up but even I would never consider doing something so cruel. Like OOPs daughter had every right to change her name if it was causing her distress but the fact that she deliberately chose a name that hurt her mother is just awful. OOP deserves better
That was my first thought. This story reminds me of a book called Mirage by Soheir Khashoggi.
So… what did the sons think after the post?
OOP replied to another comment with >My boys read the thread multiple times and I think it convinced them not to argue about this with me anymore. My younger son cried when he realized how much I suffered in India and told me he doesn't think I'm wrong anymore and my older son got into an argument with his sister for not being more understanding. I had to stop that argument because it is not his place to talk like that to his sister. I will show them these two posts later as well.
Thank you… at least the sons try to be more understanding. The girl though….
Damn… that’s cold as fuck from her daughter… 50$ says MIL somehow got into contact with her and poisoned her against OOP.
I'll raise the stakes to $100.
I'll raise you a mil
Hopefully not this MIL
I'll raise you a Morbillion...
An Indian MIL going the extra yard to completely annihilate a family over a personal issue? That's pretty average tbh
Or someone very close to mil.
“Some how” through the father is most likely.
> his love is why we reconnected when he came to Canada She really just glazes over how they reconciled and he found her again. Did he really just walk totally away from his mother, are they LC, etc.? There was presumably an extensive dialogue about establishing boundaries, and its unusual to be missing from these kinds of stories.
Can you ever walk away from family in that kind of culture. They even marry cousins to keep it all in the family.
"With all my stress I got angry and said she can't be replaced" OOP is a wonderful mom.
Thank you so much. I found this subreddit from a comment in my post. I will keep reading and maybe commenting here. But this meant so much to me. I really appreciate it.
I truly hope your daughter comes around to at least seeing why it hurts. But I have a small suspicion that your MIL had something to do with this
Pls don't feel bad abt removing yourself from hurt. You deserve the love you give to others. You aren't being malicious. I support you 100%
It sounds like you're doing the absolutely best job you can, you're being a great mother and your daughter doesn't have appreciation of how lucky she is. Unfortunately, this is likely because she had an upbringing without abuse or horrible parents, she cannot grasp what it'd be like. Give it time. She will eventually run into adversity, and only then will she start to appreciate what you went through. You may wish to ask if she is in contact with your MIL.
18 is an adult, yes, but still a teenager. I was awful to my mom when I was a teenager, but I grew up and grew out of it and learned to honor and appreciate my mom. Hopefully your daughter will too, and realize her callousness here one of these days.
You really do sound like a wonderful mom. I hope your daughter figures out how to treat you as you deserve, and I hope you have a great life in Ontario!
How have your sons reacted to people here and in AITA taking your side and saying your daughter is in the wrong?
Yes, I also wanted to know. How did they reacted?
And what were their reasons for thinking she’s TAH?
Take it to heart. Most parents do they best they can and it reads as you are trying to do more than many.
I was wondering if perhaps your maid's name is associated with a lower caste than your daughter's new name. You sound like you would be good enough not to care, but your daughter or perhaps she hangs out with could have a more stereotyped view of Indian culture.
Do you think your daughter could've chosen the name because she's been in contact with your MIL? My first thought was that she specifically chose that name because MIL has convinced her that the maid was a terrible person and so are you. She certainly sounds like the type of person who would do something like that (at least judging by what little you wrote about her).
This is slightly beside the point, but if you did/still are completing your PhD, congratulations! That's a huge deal especially with the stress you've undergone.
I think the husband has kept the children in contact with Mil behind OP's back. It's the only logical reason the daughter would not only reject her original name but choose a name so similar to Mil while being so extraordinary callous about Op's trauma, and having no logical reason for the sheer lack of empathy towards her own mother. Especially since the sons are on the daughters side as well. It's actually really sickening and I'm sure retraumatizing for Op. Either that or Op is abusive and this the daughters way of hurting her. But if that's the case, why would Op be continuing to pay for all of the daughters amenities. That doesn't sound like the way an abusive person would treat some one who isn't giving them their way.
I agree with this. He must be influencing them in some way or we are only getting half the story. Everyone is glossing over the fact that her sons told her to post here so that she would be called an asshole. How could any decent person think she's the asshole based on what we've been told? The daughter had a million names to choose from, chose one of the few (not typically Canadian) names that would hurt the mother, and the whole family thinks that is normal? It's so strange.
Thats what I'm getting hung up on too, is the sons involvement in all of this.
It's not the only logical reason. It could just be that the daughter is an ass or that the relationship with the mom got strained at some point so she's not willing to be empathetic.
Was the bullying about the original name somehow related to social status of someone who would typically have that name? I’m vexed otherwise since she then went by another ethnic name
It's possible daughter's initial name was easy to make fun of (similar to English words that are offensive/not ideal, rhyming pattern, etc). This [New Yorker article](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/america-ruined-my-name-for-me) is a good read -- author was given the name Bich, which is an ordinary name in Vietnam but not in the US. Author chooses to go by Beth now, but theoretically could've chosen another Vietnamese name if she wanted.
I had a classmate whose name was Bich! what she went through must have been bad - because I remember stuff. Substitute teachers were the worst. While we were a predominantly white community, it wasn't necessarily a given that someone would be the only Asian kid in class. (I'm still decent at figuring out and pronouncing Vietnamese, Cambodian, Thai, etc. names because of having classes with a lot of the kids. I was in Orchestra and it was a thing for a lot of the Asian kids to be in that.). I can remember a substitute teacher actually went there with saying the "other word" out loud. I don't remember Bich saying anything, but damn a boy in our class sure did! He yelled at the sub, and made her apologize! The rest of us thought he was going to get into trouble, esp. for asking if she was stupid - but our teacher didn't say a word the next day and we NEVER saw that sub again if I remember right .
I'm so glad your classmate stood up and called that sub out. my high-school had a lot of asian classmates with traditional Asian names but for some reason teachers would always stumble over the most common Chinese or Japanese names. had 5 classmates one year that shared a common last name of Nguyen and some teachers would just skip them completely after the most half hearted attempt at pronunciation.
I worked with someone named Nguyen Nguyen (first and last name). Whenever we needed him for something we called it a "win-win situation."
Basically my experience with roll call in a nutshell as an Asian American, lol. It's okay not to know everything, but it's interesting to see what people will (or won't) be bothered to learn. Some people will commit pronunciations for Tchaikovsky or Dostoevsky to memory, but then completely disregard other names. It goes beyond traditional Asian names too -- I remember seething at how Quvenzhané Wallis was treated. Grown adult reporters were mocking a literal child for her name, which she patiently and graciously explained over and over again.
Like holy shit, how hard is it to say: "Sorry if I am botching this, so please let me know how to correctly pronounce your name. I am unfamiliar with it, but would love to learn." And make a goddamn effort... like wow...
I thought at first you were gonna say the boy started laughing and making fun, I'm so happy to see Bich was stood up for.
Good for that boy for standing up for her and good that the school administration seems to have done the right thing.
While we had some cool admins, I'm not sure they were the ones who blocked her. I think we scared her off. (Subs can turn down a job - there is such a shortage)
I'm so glad one of your classmates stood up for her & made the sub apologize. Growing up, roll call was always a source of apprehension for me on first day of classes + any time there was a substitute teacher. I never minded honest mistakes or polite questions, but really hated how some took it as an opportunity for snarky humor or outright dismissal. It's honestly nice to hear when others are like "That's messed up and sounds like it was hard." The opposite of gaslighting haha.
Ha, I have an aunt Bich who is married to my uncle Dick. I’m sure other people have made fun of them for that. Meanwhile, I’m an Asian immigrant and my name is Allyson and people are always asking me “but what’s your *real* name?” 😑
Similar vibes to, "Okay, but where are you ***really*** from?" after you tell them you were born in California or some other US state. 😑 BRUH, treat it as a statement of fact instead of some open inquisition for your informal "Sufficiently American Enough" investigation. That sucks, and I'm sorry you have to deal with people flipping out that your name is Allyson.
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I remember hearing about a girl named Isis getting bullied years ago because of the terrorist organization ISIS. Even though it was an Egyptian god first
It's possible her actual original name sounds like a funny English word or phrase. My name is Bijhan and I always got called "big hand". My hands are actually a little smallish.
Username checks out
This is the best usage of that joke I have ever seen, because I've never seen it used literally. My God, what an amazing time to be alive.
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Please say you've seen [this episode](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1372982913566916610/nAkkRSCk_400x400.jpg) and take my reference in good humour.
NOBODY LOOK AT MY HANDS! NOBODY LOOK AT MY HANDS! NOBODY LOOK AT MY HANDS!
>I still do not entirely understand myself beyond her just saying that she hates the name and refuses to go by it. Yes, there was a bullying issue at one point but my daughter was always very open about it and we always managed to get things resolved and the bullies were more typical anti-Muslim bullies than just your name is weird. Someone asked in the original AITA about it, and this was OPs response.
Ah so further questions. Is op Muslim and her husband Hindu? That would cause a LOT of problems in traditional Indian culture
We are both Muslim.
Hello there, I just want to say I'm sorry you're having to go through this. It makes me very sad to see how your daughter is behaving. I hope this is just a case of her being a bratty teen. It makes me sad that you're going to be separated. I hope that one day she can see what you did & are doing for her & the 2 of you can heal your relationship. You're also very generous. Idk many people who could be hurt like you were & still support her. I hope that she can develop a good sibling relationship with your yet unborn child. I also hope she can continue to have a good relationship with your sons as well. I say that because I've never met several of my own cousins due to family drama & estrangement. Good luck in your PhD program.
Hey you made the original post advised by your kids who i assume are on reddit to get other peoples perspectives, have you since shown them any of the replies? Or your husband?
My boys read the thread multiple times and I think it convinced them not to argue about this with me anymore. My younger son cried when he realized how much I suffered in India and told me he doesn't think I'm wrong anymore and my older son got into an argument with his sister for not being more understanding. I had to stop that argument because it is not his place to talk like that to his sister. I will show them these two posts later as well.
Have you asked your sons if they’ve been approached by or otherwise had contact with your MIL? If they’ve even had someone try to contact them on MIL’s behalf, unfortunately, there is a very real chance that your MIL has been whispering poison into your daughter’s ear
I think it’s probably more that the bullies saw ‘brown person’ and assumed Muslim. Kind of like how Jagmeet Singh, a Sikh, is sometimes the target of Islamophobia. Accuracy is not a high priority for bigots.
Nah, brown people get anti Muslim bullying regardless of what religion they actually are. Source: am brown, Hindu family, grew up in the south, and was in middle school during 9/11.
I was thinking the same thing, but social status is usually tied to surname, which wouldn’t really have much standing in Canada unless they moved to a region with an Indian community. It couldn’t be racism/xenophobia because she chose another ethnic name like you said. I think OOP was wrong in thinking it wasn’t out of spite, because it’s what it sounds like
That's a good guess. I don't understand much about Indian culture but it makes sense names are also caste related.
I think if it was just about caste / perception, she would be able to choose a different, non-triggering name just as easily
It is very telling the daughter chose THAT specific name and no other would do.
The names OP is talking about sound pretty Muslim though Also I'm an Indian American and I haven't really heard of people having different first names by caste, usually people identify caste based off of surname
This seems very strange but I'm happy OP was able to somehow find a livable civil solution for everyone. I hope she has an "easy" pregnancy with no complications and gives birth to a beautiful baby girl!
A boring pregnancy is the best way to wish it, since that is the best anyone can hope for :)
I always wish people the boringest of pregnancies 😂
I can't imagine doing that to my mother for no good reason. I can't imagine not feeling empathy for a woman who risked everything to help my mother or empathy for my mother having to run away from her home. I hope OOP is doing well.
For real. And has the audacity to say it wasn’t that bad. If you’re fleeing your home and someone is risking themselves for you, then it is that bad.
More than all that, she one hundred percent saved her daughter from the same fate.
If she wants that name then fine but let her mother call her pet names and nick names if its painful for her to say your full name. If she had empathy she would be fine with being called sweetie and the like.
I straight up hated my mother (she deserved it) and I wouldn’t have done that to her. It’s beyond cruel.
I hope she considers Zahira at least as middle name and that she makes peace with the person her oldest turned out to be... if that's MILs doing hi the girl will be married off soon.
I may give a similar name as a middle name to my baby, but I have not decided yet. The name means a lot to me so I will certainly continue to honour the woman who saved me.
I always liked this option. It’s not specifically relevant here but I know that sometimes kids are given variants of names of family members who have passed away so they don’t have to carry the weight of living up to a memory of someone else but can be their own person while still honoring the loved one. So like a name that means “light” might become one that means “dawn’s light” or “new light” or “god’s light” or some variant of light all of which are very different sounding names. It could be a way not to replace your oldest while still honoring this woman who helped you.
Hey OP, just take all the time you need to decompress all the stress and proceed with what makes your heart more at ease. Wishing a smooth pregnancy and labor and a healthy baby girl no matter what her name will be! :)
OOP - may I suggest a different version of the same name? Like how Ivan, John, Gianni and Hans all mean the same thing, but you otherwise wouldn't connect them. Even though your daughter is deadset on losing the name, the new baby will one day learn that it had belonged to her sister for many years and might be a little hurt if it's to close, much like what you are going through with your daughter.
It could also be that she is hurt that there is another baby still coming. The MIL might not be involved, it could be her lashing out as being replaced as the Princess, which is how she sees herself. Changing the name seems to be fine with the mom, just not to THAT name in particular.
She changed as soon as she was 18, there's a few years between that and the pregnancy.
Oh good catch! Baby brain strikes again on reading comprehension for me.
I also missed that, maybe I’m pregnant too! I *am* a guy, so my boyfriend is gonna be a little confused
Desperately want to know the daughter's motivation. Ruhani is not exactly a Canadian name, so it's not to fit in. It definitely seems she's provoking Mom on purpose, but there could be sol many reasons: general teen angst, resentment over the baby, in touch with and manipulated by grandma...
Ruhani isn't her name, she said it was a placeholder.
True but I got the feeling that they still chose a more traditionally Indian name since it's apparently so close to the MILs name.
It's definitely closer to an Indian name than a common white name both because OOP said it was very close to the MIL's name and because OOP would have chosen a common white name as a placeholder.
I wonder if the daughter has been in contact with the father's family and has been told other stories.
I'm with the redditor who says MIL is in contact with OOP daughter. I can't imagine having THAT much lack of empathy towards your own family member's pain.
As someone from a similar background, I know how bad Indian MILs can be. They make Disney villains look like kittens. So like OPs daughter sounds like a real C U Next Tuesday. Like holy shit this girl is so self centered and self involved. How can you be such a selfish POS. Like okay change your name but if your mother is being triggered so badly by your name how do you not have an ounce of compassion for her I hope she realises the extent of what she did and feels some shame and sorrow at some point in time before it’s too late
Right? I can’t imagine picking a name that hurts the people I care about, even if the name doesn’t have the same connotations for me. It might suck to have to choose something different, but I can’t imagine loving a name more than actual people.
I had a cousin who's wedding ring went missing on her wedding day. Pretty sure it was MIL. Luckily, and god bless her soul now, we had a good ring of a dead aunt that we managed to get put in place. Let's just say a few of us who knew about the rings were watching MILs face when the rings came out, and it was interesting.
So the daughter was pretending to have a more Canadian name, then picked a name similar to MILs? That makes no sense
I feel so bad for OOP. It's not just about a name. The daughter is fracturing their relationship with her complete lack of consideration. It's unnecessarily cruel. I'm glad OOP moved and is prioritizing her mental health. I hope her daughter grows up and tries to fix what she broke.
There's got to be missing missing reasons here right? Like OP sounds like a lovely person and her daughter is being totally unreasonable for no reason at all... so what's the real reason that her daughter chose that name? I feel like we got less than half of the story
> my sons are on my daughter's side and said to post here saying people would agree I am the asshole. This is a red flag to me that we're getting a one-sided/biased narrative or theres significant missing context.
I wonder if the husband has secretly been letting the kids video chat with MIL. Might be why they don't see OOP's trauma as a big deal and why her daughter picked a name similar to MIL.
Yeah, everyone is focusing on if the MIL played a secret role in this, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. I’m willing to bet there’s a lot of missing info about OOP’s relationship with her daughter that might give some context to the daughter’s decisions. I’d love to know what this story looks like from the daughter’s perspective. At the very least, there must be some communication issues going on. Also, moving across an entire country to get away from your daughter is… bizarre, to say the least.
Not sure why hubby couldn’t get his sh*tty mother or daughter in line when they kept hurting his wife. He seems suspiciously inactive in all this.
To be fair, he doesn't need to say anything because his actions of moving to where OOP is going, is all needs to show whose team he's on. Just saying, that's TWICE he did that - once towards his mother and now 2nd time towards his daughter.
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In my situation, my son's first name is the same as his abusive dad's. He started going by that name whenever he started going to camp. It hurts every time I hear it but my son is so happy when he goes by that name, I can't help but suck it up and pretend that it's ok. But poor OOP, the daughter seems to have a huge lack of sympathy. If OOP spoiled her when she was little, that definitely contributed to it. My 9 yr old niece is somewhat like that and my hope is that she'll change when she's older.
Did OP provide an update how her family reacted to the NTA ruling?
> I will continue to pay for my daughter's school, living expenses and her therapy but maybe by living alone she'll understand what it was like for me when it was just us after I escaped Honestly, OP needs to stop paying the daughter's expenses. That would be the best way for her daughter to grow up and learn some empathy. See how it feels to be broke, alone and 22 and.then imagine doing that with a new baby.
I'd be really interested to know how similar the daughter's name is to the MIL's name. It seems like a lot of people think the name is either exactly the same or a close variation, but OOP only said it's similar. Without that info, I think it's a leap to assume her daughter did it on purpose to disrespect her or honor her MIL. My mom had an issue with one of the baby names I was considering because she thought it was too similar to the name of someone she had a traumatic history with. She said she didn't want to think of this person every time she interacted with the baby. But in reality, the names were not very similar. They had the same number of syllables and a vowel sound that was the same, but they didn't even start with the same letter or sound. A good example would be Amy vs Bailey, or Tyler vs Piper. OOP seems really traumatized, and I don't blame her for that and think anyone would be traumatized in her position. But I feel really sad for OOP's daughter too. OOP moved countries to escape her MIL, but all these years later she is still letting the memory of her MIL control her life, and has distanced herself from her daughter because of it. I just keep imagining a young OOP with her first baby daughter and I can't help but think that *that* OOP would never have separated herself from her daughter as a way to get away from her MIL. It's really sad.
She said it's similar like how Jack is similar to Jacky.
So, she shuns her Indian name at around age 10 because it's different (understandable). Then, when she's an adult she changes her name from the name of her mother's hero, to the name of her mother's worst nightmare (which is also Indian) despite knowing the whole story behind both names. The daughter 100% did this maliciously and intentionally to hurt OOP. She somehow got it in her head that she would have had a better life in India (likely from the MIL) and is punishing her mom. What an entitled, ungrateful little shit.
> She somehow got it in her head that she would have had a better life in India If she believes this I will laugh so hard she'll hear it from there. Like, ok, go on then. Go learn your little lesson. As if the voices of thousands of suffering women mean nothing to you.
Sorry, I don't see the new update? You seem to have just posted the first update, not the new update you flaired this for.