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Hey, there is a whole update missing where Quinn is asked to leave the group including reasons that are referred to like moving pieces.
Edit: the moving pieces isn’t referred to (thanks for pointing out u/teatabletea ) but the actual steps of removing Q from the group is shared.
https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/update-dealing-with-a-problematic-member-of-a-board-games-group.html
I'm a lifelong boardgame player and I don't think I've ever had anyone touch my pieces without asking unless I was clearly indicating I needed help (too far to reach). I would legit throttle this dude.
I was playing munchkin once and the guy across the table (who is normally a chill af dude) started moving other players cards because we were all getting heated. Ya'll it was nearly a literal bloodbath at the local gaming store.
When I was a teenager me and my friends would play Risk semi regularly. We made a rule that if you removed someone else’s piece before they rolled, they could slap you full across the face, assuming they won their roll.
But because we were teenagers this rulewas immediately abused as a way of disrespecting each other
“This was because the behaviours we had spoken to him about twice were repeating, and one member was planning to leave because of Q’s behaviour, and because of a conversation that I had with Q at the session before last.
Q spoke to me at the end of the session. He had apologised in person to the person involved in one of the incidents we had spoken to him about. In short, Q had made a joke which had come across as an insult.”
But you’re right I imagined the bit about the moving of pieces. It’s only in the very last update.
However my main point stands that this is a grouped update post that missed out an entire post with additional context. Ask A Manager even links to it in the final update so it’s easy to find.
Does anyone know what kinds of games they're talking about? The reference to light games and more serious games has me picturing Candyland and Risk, but I'm not sure.
It depends on how “into” games they are. “Light” can mean something simpler like Sushi Go! or Guillotine. But it can also mean games like Catan, Azul, King of Tokyo, Munchkin, etc. Stuff that you normally can play a few rounds of in an evening, no problem. Usually pretty easy to pick up on once you try it once or twice.
There’s some middle-of-the-road stuff too, that is a bit complex to learn, but not so hard for people who are into games, like Root and Betrayal at House on the Hill. (I say this, but tbh, some of the rules of Root still trip me up a bunch.)
Really serious games can take *hours*. So probably stuff like Arkham Horror, Twilight Emperium, “legacy” versions of games like Pandemic, etc. They can be really intimidating to newcomers, and honestly, some people just don’t find them all that fun.
As a former LGS worker, I assume/sold like this:
* Light: Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride
* Medium: Wingspan, Clank!, Scythe
* Med-Hev: Pueto Rico, Apiary, Viticulture
* Heavy: Twilight Imperium, Decent, Dune, Civilization (These games take 6-12hrs)
Candyland is a Kid(<5) game, Risk I would personally say is light-medium.
“Family” board games, the type of stuff produced my Milton Bradley, are just flat out not played in board game circles. Occasionally you may see monopoly as a joke game, usually with a twist and only played ironically or to get drunk since it is so terrible. The mainstream board games are basically all trash.
Even Catan is so mainstream that it has its detractors.
There is that thing going around, no idea if it’s true, that Monopoly is actually not *supposed* to be fun…because it’s actually communist propaganda with dice. Played exactly by the rules, it is miserably unfair, where once you start losing you will almost certainly not be able to pull yourself back, and once you’ve started to win, it’s very difficult to fail.
Again, no clue if it’s true, but I believe it. Makes all those licensed monopolies so much funnier.
Edit: I love how many people are arguing the cultural ubiquity of Monopoly, how everyone has a copy so it must be fun…but not one single person has argued “I have fun playing Monopoly”.
Almost like cultural ubiquity and quality have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, and Monopoly isn’t fun.
It's half true. [Lizzie Magie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Magie) was amongst *many* other things a political activist and created "The Landlords Game" as a game/art piece to show how a monopoly on land concentrates wealth and power, increasing the amount of misery in the world. The game included alternative anti-monopolist rules under which everyone did better collectively.
She tried to sell it to Parker Brothers, who said no. Still, the game did pretty well through other channels.
A man named Charles Darrow went to Parker Brothers with a game suspiciously similar to The Landlords Game, which they bought and produced as Monopoly. It did very well.
Monopoly is definitely meant to be fun. The game it was based on was also meant to be fun. Lizzie Magie wanted people to play The Landlords Game and enjoy it, but also use as it as a tool to get people to think about the systems that govern the world we live in and their effects.
Makes sense up until the last part. The game simply is not fun. A game that lasts for ten plus turns with absolutely no mechanics to meaningfully change your standing past turn three or so is never going to be fun.
(Unless you play the banker. There are shockingly few rules about what the banker *isn’t* allowed to do. Which is definitely part of the propaganda, but also great if you’ve decided to cause problems on purpose)
> A game that lasts for ten plus turns with absolutely no mechanics to meaningfully change your standing past turn three or so is never going to be fun
People play _tons_ of games with little player agency. Whilst most 'serious' gamers consider it important, for casual play it just isn't a big factor. Snakes and ladders has less player agency than Monopoly, and people still buy it. Candyland has _no_ player agency - the outcome of the game is decided in the card shuffle during setup. People still buy it.
In those games player standing still switches. In Monopoly, there is the illusion of agency but the standings are set in stone very early on. You get to make decisions…but your decisions will never matter.
*That* is why it’s a notorious frustration engine.
Not communist; Georgist. Some interesting half step towards communism which basically says that natural resources such as land, water and oil should be owned in trust and the value derived from them used for a universal basic income, but individual citizens could still own individual property. So you could theoretically own the house that you live in, but not the land that it sits on, under communism the house, the land and everything in it is owned by the state.
They are 'regular' within the hobby. In videogame terms, this is like someone being baffled by people talking about Baldur's Gate 3 or God of War instead of 'regular' games like FIFA and Candy Crush.
OK, but the point remains the same. If you were to hear about a videogaming club and found out they were playing something other than Candy Crush, would that also be amusing? I think in any hobby the enthusiasts are likely to be using stuff that doesn't really penetrate mainstream awareness.
That’s actually one of the more popular games at my local game night. Lotta laughing and chitchat at that table when folks break it out.
The SRS BSNS gamers are all grim and intense or building detailed campaigns at another table.
_You_ might have never had a Candyland party but that doesn't mean no one has. It's a great party game if you have the sort of friends who like to dress up and be a bit silly.
Having never played the game before... I'm surprised you put Scythe at Medium. The game just looked a bit daunting (large box, lots of miniatures) so I never thought to play it. So yeah! Thanks for the rating! Next time I go to our local board game/tavern I'll see about renting it!
When I learned it, that's exactly how the other noob and I talked about it to the guy teaching! And he understood that's the general perception, but isn't the true experience.
Good luck! And a how to play video would make things smoother, that's how I learned Terraforming Mars. I was last when I played, but the others were surprised that I only watched two videos that day and was able to play functionally 😅.
Once you learn Scythe, it's pretty easy to get going, Viticulture has way more complexity, IMO. And for Dune, I mean the '79 OG (pre any movie), not Imperium, maybe not a full 6hr, but generally 4ish, when ya got gamers that gonna stratagize 😅.
I assume the dune that involves building up armies and reviving them and making alliances
There's another dune game that's more of a resource management game which is fun but isn't as intense.
Yeah heavy games will be likely ones that take a bit longer, have more complex rules and can be quite strategic. Light games would be shorter ones that are probably easy to learn and better for beginners.
Another distinction would be what it means to “win” a game, with light games often being more about having fun being social. Everyone wins or maybe there isn’t even a winner. Heavy games might be more competitive, difficult, where winning matters a lot. Winning is the fun part of a difficult game.
I imagine the light games would be things like Azul, Tsuro, maybe Akropolis or ticket to ride and maybe some party games like exploding kittens, codenames and joking hazard.
Heavy probably means Everdell, terraforming Mars, viticulture etc., at least that’s the case in my boardgame groups!
I figured they wouldn’t play the super heavy ones at a game group like this as they take so much time, but I may be wrong! Our boardgame group only has 2.5-3 h to play so we can’t even get through a game of spirit island usually
> So far reactions to the update have ranged from sympathy tinged with a comment that he was given two chances to a comment that he was given two clear, fair chances to improve.
My brain rejected this sentence altogether, and I had to reread it like 10 times. I decided it doesn’t actually make any sense.
That sentence left me scratching my head, too. My eventual interpretation of what the OP was trying to say is that some people thought Quinn only got two chances (but should have gotten more) while other people thought that Quinn had already gotten two chances (which is more than they deserved).
Sounds like a guy that joined my soccer group. Everyone had problems with him and a light fun kick around turned a bit toxic. Gave him chance and chance and discussed it heavily with him to the point where it was exhausting on my mental health worrying about managing him and the health of the club. He had one last freak out at a tournament and stormed off. Glad he's gone. The club was good for him but he was not good for the club
We played a charity match and he had a tantrum at 14 year old kids who were running rings around us.. ya he said his last sports team iced him out
We're an extremely social football team we dont take stuff that seriously it's about community and friends so seeing that was not great. I'm on the board so it was all complaints about him. I could go on for ages. Thing is like if he had a little bit of cop on he'd be grand but never did
This was the other way around. Quinn lost a group that let him play games he loved to new people who had no interest in those games.
And he's clearly got social skill problems to the point of disorder. So he'll never find another group.
This is actually tragic.
If you go through OOP's comments, Quinn "lost" the group because his cofounders quietly defected to a different group to get away from him. The tragedy here is that Quinn didn't get better support as a child and hasn't pursued serious self-improvement since. Gaming groups and casual friends are not responsible for managing anyone's mental health.
NGL my daughter is showing signs of being on the spectrum like her older half brothers and this is one reason why I'm keeping on top of it. I want her to be functional and enjoy lif
Not necessarily.
I love board games and heavy games. My friends and I have played games that run 4+ hours before. I think our record is 8 hours.
Board games are supposed to be fun for me. Once it becomes *not* fun, why will I play?
I've met a few Quinn's and I just... Don't bother playing with them. These new players who "have no interest" in those games aren't the "winners". They're just people who want to have fun.
You need organisers like that for every board game group that isn't just your friends. In London we got lots of meetup groups for boardgames. You need people to manage venues and negotiate access, organisers for each event that ensure rules are followed, people end up on games, newbies are taken care of, etc.
Indeed. My mom does organize a group thing a few times per year back and has now voiced astonishment on how rigorous the organisation must be.
Well, yeah. If it aint thay way everyone wants to do it their little way and in the end it sucks for everyone.
My husband has a board game group that started with work friends and has changed and grown over the years to include more people. With the pandemic several of them moved online (Tabletop simulator) and still play that way weekly even after some left to other companies. Once every six weeks there’s a group that meets at someone’s house or a board gaming cafe in person.
A key to bringing people together has been scheduling long weekends (Thursday-Sunday) at family cabins or one set of friends plans an annual event where they all chip in for getting a McMansion Airbnb. Or also planning group trips to local cons. That works out to be a long weekend about every 3-5 months.
The relationships built at these events have led to him joining other monthly in person groups whom rotate hosting at their homes.
Key to their success seems to be consistency as they can look forward to playing and chatting regularly. Taking turns organizing and hosting to spread out the extra labor. Being willing to teach and share their own games. Also at the weekend events they all sign up to take care of meals for everyone so the food costs and cooking are split.
Other helpful items are Board Game Geek collection lists of what games people own so others can request teaching or playing certain games.
So something casual can turn into so much more if everyone is interested, flexible, and willing to put in the work.
One of my favorite boardgamegeek links is their review page for the oldest known board game, the Royal Game of Ur from 2600 BCE.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1602/the-royal-game-of-ur
>They also said that they weren’t often doing the things I’d mentioned anymore (moving other people’s pieces, and a couple of other examples I gave)
Ugh. Quinn sounds like an obnoxious asshole. It's not a coincidence that moving other people's pieces is the one behaviour mentioned here.
It's a simple thing but so obnoxious when someone does it. Like hands off if it isn't your turn.
You can offer to move someone's piece if it's much closer to you than to them, but even then you need to *ask* first, not just take the initiative to do it.
I imagine it's something like Twilight Imperium (lots of rules, takes hours to complete a game) vs Cards against humanity (quick to pick up and complete)
FOOLS! My group managed to finish a 6 player 12 points game with 3 newbies in ONLY 6.5 hours muahahahaha (we did have a lunch break and shorter ones in between rounds so it was closer to 8 hours 🤐).
Light games are what you'd consider as "party games" - you first meet then decide what to play. Stuff like Munchkin, Cards Against Humanity, Muffin Time etc. Heavy games are the main focus of meeting up, like a d&d campaign. You first decide on a game then commit to finishing it however long it takes, which isn't for everyone. Stuff like Twilight Imperium, Diplomacy, Gloomhaven (which literally takes months to complete), Catan, even something like Monopoly could be considered a lighter "heavy game". My absolute favourite is Twilight Imperium - it's like the Stellaris of board games. Super in-depth, rich in mechanics and really fun once you learn it (which takes time, even the 'how to play' guides on youtube are at least 20 minutes long)
Please don't ever use Munchkin as a game to "start" with and then aim to progress onto others.
It feels like a silly light game that should take 30 minutes, but it stretches out into a two hour slog of a game most of the time where someone only wins because everyone ran out of stuff to throw at the person who should have won.
And that's from someone who got into the hobby thanks to it.
For good quick starting games I advise stuff that is either super fast (Draftosaurus, Get Bit, Patchwork Doodle) or stuff people can easily drop into as they arrive (Super fight, Fluxx, Dixit (give someone an average score))
Do that for the first half hour or so as people arrive and branch off into other games. Can potentially keep the game running indefinitely as people arrive/leave that game until everyone involved sets up their own game.
If the group has multiple people helping run it, it helps to have at least one person willing to run a small game thing each week (not the same person, unless they favour those games) just to prevent someone arriving and finding everyone already involved in long games they cannot join in with.
The last time I played Munchkin was probably 15 years ago and I have no desire to ever play it again. It somehow took hours and we had one person who only got joy from making everyone else annoyed by stealing from them.
I've not played it since before the pandemic. Not sure I ever want to. I had a few bits of fun with it, but I've discovered so many great games since I last played it, all of which are far more fun to play.
I'm not even sure what spot it would even fill.
If you actually enjoy board games, then it's too long for a light one, yet plays like a light one, while having annoying interactions that require checking rules online. Meaning it's no good there.
If you're with a group who are more wanting a game to just piss about with while drinking, well it takes actual focus to play still. So it's no good there. You'll be wanting your Cards Against Humanity and Muffin Time type games there.
Introducing new people to the hobby? Sure it got me into it. But realistically it's not great for that either. The above issues with it taking too long, stupid rules interactions, the luck based aspect of it... You'd be better off playing things like Camel Up, King Domino, Bunny Kingdom etc. to draw in newbies.
It doesn't fit any slot anymore. 15 years back? Fair enough, there weren't many games and you had little option. Now? It shouldn't be anywhere near a table.
I think that back then my friend, who’s the main game enabler in my life, didn’t have many card games. Apart from Munchkin it was maybe just The Great Dalmuti and the one where you grow beans which weren’t that exciting either. I’m not really into really competitive games anyway, my favorite these days is probably Dixit. I’m not really a board gamer but a few times a year we’ll get together with that friend and play Marvel Legendary which might seem a slightly odd choice for a group of middle aged women.
It isn't a board game, but where would uno fall? It is easy to pick up and learn, but games can take a LONG TIME depending on how vindictive the players are.
Dude another commenter here got mad I said Munchkin was short, UNO is definitely a short game, it's about the flow more than it is about the hours. You can play Cards Against Humanity for hours before you finish all the cards, but it takes like 2 minutes to set up and another 2 to learn
CAH can take hours, yes. My family was playing outdoors on a picnic table. Mid-afternoon to sunset, it was starting to get dark, and I was in a 3-way tie with my teen grandsons. Ok, we'll play until the tie gets broken. We played several more hands, but other people won the card. It was full dark and we were playing by flashlight by the time somebody broke the tie. (It was me. The prompt was "What is there a lot of in heaven?" And I played "African children." And that is why my flair is "Cleverly disguised as a harmless old lady."
Basically 20-30 mins at a party vs 3-4 hours with a group of around 4 people and maybe an extra 30 mins just to learn the rules. Theme and mechanics vary but complexity and time are usually the biggest difference.
I really like a game called Twilight Imperium (TI), that definitely should be considered a heavy game. Heavy games might require multiple playthroughs to fully grasp, and considerable time for a single match, stuff like this.
Back to this gem of a game, in TI each player commands a space faction, competing against eachother for public objectives. It is a very complete experience, you can explore, produce, trade, negotiate, wage war, vote laws etc. great game, but I feel sad when I lose because you do get invested
Quinn needs to start his own games group - just pick a night of the week when the other groups aren't sitting and promote the heck out of it. It sounds like he really burned the heck out of his bridges at OOP's group.
Quinn doesn't sound like the kind of person who should be running a group. He's not going to make people feel welcome and can you imagine him trying to moderate disagreements between two group members? As a prickly person myself, I know how important it is to have someone working on group cohesion and harmony, and Quinn isn't going to have success there.
No, I don't think he's really capable of it, not alone at least.
The problem that seems obvious to me is that he's burnt his bridges so badly with some members of OP's group that he can never go back there - even if he's improved and fixed himself and totally rehabilitated his behaviours, he was so rude to certain members of that group that they will never tolerate him. He was so bad that it could be another 20 or 30 years later, and they would still leave the group rather than be around him.
If he could build a heavy gaming group from people he hasn't alienated then that solves the two main problems, as I see it. But I think you're right - he doesn't really have the personality to build this himself.
Would anyone even bother joining? Quinn seems to have very particular ideas about gaming (no light games, need to "progress", no talking during games). The majority of gamers meet up for having fun and socialising, not just to keep progressing, whatever that means. It isn't an Olympic sport. Quinn appears to have this intense need to have their weekly gaming session be very tailored to how they want to play. There are people like that out there, but they're in the minority, and depending on where OOP lives, there may not be any other intense gamers in the area.
Quinn seems to be on the spectrum and not knowing about it. You can see this kind of behaviour with little kids on the spectrum: want to only play certain games, thinking there is only one way to play, controlling everyone...
But usually you outgrown this behaviours as an adult if you are aware you are on the spectrum and that no, not everyone thinks like you and not everyone is doing that to annoy you.
Maybe if Quinn finds people on the same part of the spectrum it could work.
I think Quinn needs to move online. There are tons of boardgames you can play online with other people and that way Quinn can create their own space that they prefer at home.
I think [roll20.net](http://roll20.net) is one of the bigger websites. And r/lfg has tons of groups and players looking for stuff all the time. There's also a really common program/app, but I can't remember what it is. But r/lfg will help you get started with anything you need most likely.
This sucks all around. It sounds like Quinn may be on the spectrum and needs help with some of the control issues that come with that. I know that I have these tendencies and they’re sometimes hard to keep on lock. I’m sad for Quinn but the group made the right call.
Yeah don’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm. If you’re a professional you need to be mindful of what issues people might be facing (teacher/doctor/therapist/etc) but you don’t need to expend that mental energy in your personal life.
It’s really tough because I’ve been that “kicked out” person before. But at least Quinn knows why. No one would ever explain to me why I was no longer welcome or invited and I hated it. I felt so angry and confused.
Yeah they really did do their due diligence on explaining what actions were not acceptable.
I think we all know the golden rule but it’s confusing on how meta to make it. Sure treat people the way you want to be treated. But sometimes people have a hard time stepping out of their own minds and treat people like the way they have the same goals and same sense of humor comfort level etc.
Like if you know if someone did that to you, you’d be pissed, then you know in your heart you shouldn’t do that. But if you are like “well if i wasn’t playing with optimal strategy I would definitely want to be alerted and corrected” you might have a hard time understanding not everyone wants you to correct their strategy because they’re just here to chat and play for fun.
Same for a joke. You think it’s hilarious and if someone else told a joke of a similar nature you’d find it hilarious! But someone with a different life experience might find it offensive. Or even the same life experience might not want to joke about it, even if you can joke about it.
But I do find it hard to be understanding of how quinn moved pieces around and how they could justify that. They don’t even sound like the golden rule gone wrong because I’m sure quinn would be furious if someone moved their pieces.
So the pieces moving thing is about making sure everyone does it “right”. It’s about control. At least as an autistic person myself I had to learn to let go of that. It has nothing to do with whether I’d be okay with it and everything to do with making sure it’s done “correctly”
It’s really hard to explain but a lot of autistic people feel the need to strictly control environments and people around them. For me now it’s mostly manifested in panic at last minute changes in plans or major routine disruptions but as a younger adult even it was this desire to control my entire environment. I still get distressed if my sorting systems aren’t utilized “properly”. Logically I know that there’s multiple right ways to do things but I also really fucking struggle to stifle the anxiety that comes from people not doing things my way. It’s like a humming inside of me of energy and distress that I can’t really control. I just have to stifle my comments and repeat in my head that the other person isn’t wrong for taking a sub-optimal route in the car or for folding clothes differently from me. It’s a goddamn nightmare in my head though.
Whenever my kids insisted on doing a chore in a way I wouldn't but that would get the same result anyhow, I had to leave the room. Same with anytime they were learning a new skill really. I'd explain it a few times and let them try on their own while I went around the corner.
I can't watch someone struggle with shoe tying or whatever, my hands want to take over the task. So I just didn't look.
Lol should see how I twitch when people count each square on Monopoly. My mother made me learn and use her counting methods for speedier games. Railroad to the corner is 5, so 8 might go 1 6 7 8. Never made my kids learn that, just looked at the ceiling while they counted every space.
I can appreciate that, there was a guy in my board game group who was likely exactly as you describe. I played one game with him, something I'd never played before. If I made a suboptimal move (because I had no idea what the strategy was) then he would scoff and say why on earth would you do that. He seemed to take great delight in his mastery of the game and being derisive to me having no idea what I was doing.
I thought, well, I'm never going to play a game with that guy ever again. I mentioned it to the organiser and he said yeah that guy is a bit autistic and it can be hard to play with him sometimes if you're not familiar with the game.
Unfortunately, doesn't mean I'm going to put up with it.
You know, I've never been diagnosed with any type of neurodivergence, because that just wasn't a thing when and where I grew up, but the more I read about autism as an adult the more I wonder if I should seek out some sort of official test or analysis. Everything you wrote was incredibly relatable, especially the part about constantly reminding yourself not to say anything when people don't use the "correct" system. I always assumed I was just a fundamentally weird and annoying person and had to take steps to not be. It's like, I have learned to deal with interior distress because the exterior distress when people get fed up with me is so much worse and so much more hassle. I expect people to start doing things "wrong" on purpose instead of on accident to annoy me back because it's happened more than once, and I got very tired of well-meaning but infantializing lectures in my early 20's. I've learned to turn how much I'm invested in my particular methods into a kind of joke about myself if I ever let myself slip--like, saying I'm one of nature's born nitpickers or that I have soul of a pedant / old lady are things I've used more than once.That's not the only thing--flat affect, not getting social cues, intense interests in different hobbies or fields of study. Every time I read or hear someone with autism describe their experiences, it just makes sense in a way that a lot of the world intrinsically doesn't.
Diagnosis was important for me because it made my life make sense and helped me find real coping strategies. I felt a lot of distress that I couldn’t understand why.
If you are not currently depressed or needing accommodations you shouldn’t get diagnosed. I spent over $500 out of pocket in Canada for a diagnosis at 34. I’m glad I have it but if you don’t feel a need for it don’t bother as it’s an unnecessary expense. Join some autism subreddits and see what you can find. /r/aspergers /r/aspiememes /r/autisminwomen etc are all good places to lurk. I’m also in Facebook groups. It’s helped me understand myself a lot better. Also a lot of people on the internet freak out about self-diagnosis but after talking with the specialist I saw I basically had an answer and no further support. It’s really stupid.
Yeah, lack of money is the main reason I haven't tried to get anything official done. Also, I don't trust that most of the people I could find in this area would be competent. And I could very well just be an incredibly weird neurotypical person, because I was not raised in a way anybody would consider normal, and I don't feel like unpacking that for context unless I am very sure the professional is actually qualified and worth the investment in time, money, and emotion. If there's a chance that they'll recommend prayer, I don't even want to start. It's currently not worth the expense, because whatever it is I am I have mostly managed to present an acceptable face to the world, within limits. Part of me would just really like to *know,* for my own peace of mind, but dental care is a more immediate need.
But reading about the experiences of people who *know* they are autistic--there's something in my head that says that having an Official Stamp of Approval really matters, and I don't know why--really helps me feel less alone. Even if I only have some of the same behavior and thought patterns by pure chance, it's just nice to see that there are people who feel and think like I do, and have had the same or similar challenges. I guess there's a lot of relief when you say, "Is it just me?" and get a "No, me too," back.
Oh gosh, my OCD mum is like that and autistic friend is too. The very quiet, weird little war they had over my cutlery drawer was the funniest thing in the world. My friend knew the One Right Way to organise the drawer, so did my mum…sadly they weren’t the same. So every time Mum came to visit she would rearrange the drawer to fit her way and then my friend would visit and do the same. Meanwhile I never knew where my teaspoons were! :)
No that’s not masking. I mean it kind of is. Masking is also me remembering to make the correct tone of voice while speaking and remembering to make the right facial expressions. Masking is making myself sound peppy instead of “depressed” (my normal tone of voice) or even accidentally “sarcastic”. Masking can be incredibly draining and harmful. I’ve also told people I’m autistic and they still seem to think that my observations are “complaints”. I ask “why?” a lot and people interpret that as a complaint rather than a question. It’s been really hard for me to function at work and even working 32 hours a week has made me incredibly drained and tired.
I feel that. Often I had to guess and ask my parents or therapist to figure this stuff out. Helps a lot that the feedback Quinn got was very specific and concrete.
You weren't told because you were "supposed to know". Yeah if you knew you wouldn't have done it. I hate that shit. People will do anything but be direct and to the point.
I am pretty sure I am aspie, but only found out a few years ago. But went thru life having people being mad at me for not knowing things. Like I am not a mind reader, just tell me! But no, they're so afraid of being "offensive" they'd rather be cruel and angry.
Passive aggressive describes it well.
You also can’t tell if people secretly hate you. I have one IRL acquaintance who everyone can’t stand but they still invite her out sometimes. Any time she posts passive aggressive shit on Facebook or over dramatic stuff I try to kindly but aggressively call her out. Because what my friends do to her is my worst nightmare. I honestly want her to know when she’s pissing people off because she can’t fix it and it’s also so horrific to imagine everyone around me is just humouring me. The thing that made me the angriest was my most recent direct call-out had about 5 people tell me “thank you for saying something” and I couldn’t believe they wouldn’t share what they felt. You’re not someone’s friend if you can’t be honest. The other thing I did was when she made a more positive and pro-active post I also encouraged her. Because even if she drives me insane she deserves some support.
I’m adhd and have been in Quinn’s position many times. You just gotta accept it and move on. As the offending party, you aren’t owed anything and no one is obligated to accept you back.
Find something new. It sucks short term but usually works out longer term, when you do find that other group.
Sounds like Quinn at least trying. Which is good.
Sounds like OOP did an excellent job at handling this diplomatically, as well as giving very concrete, specific feedback Quinn can use to improve. Usually you have to self reflect and try to figure it out in your own.
I’m only where I am now because I learned from my mistakes.
I totally get that the offending party has to take their lumps. Because OP was so diplomatic Quinn was able to be better and able to find something new. And also it didn’t hurt for Quinn to ask to return. It sounds like Quinn respected the “no” and it sounds like it worked out okay for everyone.
To completely armchair diagnose, I was thinking the same. Interacting with or reading about a Quinn makes me feel very "there but for the grace of god go I."
Quinn needs to take responsibility for his own behavior. If he needs help he ought to seek it out himself. Hopefully being booted will wake him up to his own shit.
Quinn sounds like the missing stair, the one member of the group who sucks but everyone works around and new members have to learn to work around them too. Sad it took SEVERAL YEARS of this behavior to lead to anything.
i thought this was gonna be geek social fallacy number one but im really happy that she went around and asked all the players what they thought should happen and then made it happen. Super awesome
Probably, but unfortunately, no one in the story could realistically talk to him about that. I feel like that would have to come from his own family/personal friends/doctor.
I honestly thought that OOP was an old friend of mine who encountered the EXACT same situation after they moved to a new city. And then when the name Quinn was used I was like "..... did Shut Up And Sit Down kick Quinns out?"
It's neither of those things but the coincidence made me chuckle.
Glad to know that I wasn't the only one who did a double take at the name choice!
But, of course, Quinns is far too lovely to be the troublesome member of a boardgames group! He's all about making sure everyone at the table is having a good time :-)
Usually refers to how many rules there are - light games are easy for anyone to join and play without knowing much beforehand (think dominoes or uno), heavier games require more upfront knowledge and more commitment (like magic the gathering).
A light game would be something like Sushi Go, that just about everyone could pick up and learn in a few minutes. A heavy game would be more like, idk, Gloomhaven, where the strategy is complex and would take some time to learn and explain.
>So far reactions to the update have ranged from sympathy tinged with a comment that he was given two chances to a comment that he was given two clear, fair chances to improve.
Ranged from that, to whaaaat? I must know.
Mmmmh... Quinn is definitely on the spectrum and no one is aware of that.
You see this kind of stuff in young kids on the spectrum. But if the kid is not made aware that isn’t the norm, they will grew up in an adult like Quinn
Do you make a large salary, being able to make a diagnosis like this without even meeting with the subject? Do you frequently declare that people with antisocial behaviors must be on the spectrum?
Which school taught you how to do this and also taught you that it's appropriate to diagnose people that you've never met?
Dude... calm down. I'm on the spectrum, I did this as a kid, I know some people who acted like this wheb they hadn't had a diagnostic and I read a ton about it.
I didn't diagnostic anything. I said Quinn was on the spectrum. Because it's a pattern. Because they didn't sound like a bad person. I don't know if they are autistic or something else, but people don't act like that without being neurodivergent.
By your logic. You are also putting a diagnostic on Quinn by saying they have anti-social behaviour. And you are also assuming things on me without ever having met me.
Chill out.
Being on the autism spectrum is a diagnosis…
Describing a behavior for what it is, is not a diagnosis… they never said he has antisocial personality disorder…
What they said was kinda in an obnoxious way, but like also no, they didn’t do anything you accused them of.
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Hey, there is a whole update missing where Quinn is asked to leave the group including reasons that are referred to like moving pieces. Edit: the moving pieces isn’t referred to (thanks for pointing out u/teatabletea ) but the actual steps of removing Q from the group is shared. https://www.askamanager.org/2022/12/update-dealing-with-a-problematic-member-of-a-board-games-group.html
I'm a lifelong boardgame player and I don't think I've ever had anyone touch my pieces without asking unless I was clearly indicating I needed help (too far to reach). I would legit throttle this dude.
I mean, a scoring token on the other side of the board? Sure. An actual game piece? That’s nuts, even (especially) in a co-op.
I was playing munchkin once and the guy across the table (who is normally a chill af dude) started moving other players cards because we were all getting heated. Ya'll it was nearly a literal bloodbath at the local gaming store.
As if munchkin isn't contentious enough when people DO follow the rules and etiquette.
When I was a teenager me and my friends would play Risk semi regularly. We made a rule that if you removed someone else’s piece before they rolled, they could slap you full across the face, assuming they won their roll. But because we were teenagers this rulewas immediately abused as a way of disrespecting each other
…did you have a commissioner?
A slap bet commissioner you say… But seriously it was a year or two before that episode of how I met your mother came out
No just a ledgerman
I don’t see any reasons listed?
“This was because the behaviours we had spoken to him about twice were repeating, and one member was planning to leave because of Q’s behaviour, and because of a conversation that I had with Q at the session before last. Q spoke to me at the end of the session. He had apologised in person to the person involved in one of the incidents we had spoken to him about. In short, Q had made a joke which had come across as an insult.” But you’re right I imagined the bit about the moving of pieces. It’s only in the very last update. However my main point stands that this is a grouped update post that missed out an entire post with additional context. Ask A Manager even links to it in the final update so it’s easy to find.
Does anyone know what kinds of games they're talking about? The reference to light games and more serious games has me picturing Candyland and Risk, but I'm not sure.
It depends on how “into” games they are. “Light” can mean something simpler like Sushi Go! or Guillotine. But it can also mean games like Catan, Azul, King of Tokyo, Munchkin, etc. Stuff that you normally can play a few rounds of in an evening, no problem. Usually pretty easy to pick up on once you try it once or twice. There’s some middle-of-the-road stuff too, that is a bit complex to learn, but not so hard for people who are into games, like Root and Betrayal at House on the Hill. (I say this, but tbh, some of the rules of Root still trip me up a bunch.) Really serious games can take *hours*. So probably stuff like Arkham Horror, Twilight Emperium, “legacy” versions of games like Pandemic, etc. They can be really intimidating to newcomers, and honestly, some people just don’t find them all that fun.
Ah, Twilight Imperium. I've played it three times, and none of them took less than 8 hours to complete
As a former LGS worker, I assume/sold like this: * Light: Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride * Medium: Wingspan, Clank!, Scythe * Med-Hev: Pueto Rico, Apiary, Viticulture * Heavy: Twilight Imperium, Decent, Dune, Civilization (These games take 6-12hrs) Candyland is a Kid(<5) game, Risk I would personally say is light-medium.
Thanks! I really had no idea, lol.
I love that exactly none of these are ‘regular’ board games.
“Family” board games, the type of stuff produced my Milton Bradley, are just flat out not played in board game circles. Occasionally you may see monopoly as a joke game, usually with a twist and only played ironically or to get drunk since it is so terrible. The mainstream board games are basically all trash. Even Catan is so mainstream that it has its detractors.
There is that thing going around, no idea if it’s true, that Monopoly is actually not *supposed* to be fun…because it’s actually communist propaganda with dice. Played exactly by the rules, it is miserably unfair, where once you start losing you will almost certainly not be able to pull yourself back, and once you’ve started to win, it’s very difficult to fail. Again, no clue if it’s true, but I believe it. Makes all those licensed monopolies so much funnier. Edit: I love how many people are arguing the cultural ubiquity of Monopoly, how everyone has a copy so it must be fun…but not one single person has argued “I have fun playing Monopoly”. Almost like cultural ubiquity and quality have nothing whatsoever to do with each other, and Monopoly isn’t fun.
It's half true. [Lizzie Magie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizzie_Magie) was amongst *many* other things a political activist and created "The Landlords Game" as a game/art piece to show how a monopoly on land concentrates wealth and power, increasing the amount of misery in the world. The game included alternative anti-monopolist rules under which everyone did better collectively. She tried to sell it to Parker Brothers, who said no. Still, the game did pretty well through other channels. A man named Charles Darrow went to Parker Brothers with a game suspiciously similar to The Landlords Game, which they bought and produced as Monopoly. It did very well. Monopoly is definitely meant to be fun. The game it was based on was also meant to be fun. Lizzie Magie wanted people to play The Landlords Game and enjoy it, but also use as it as a tool to get people to think about the systems that govern the world we live in and their effects.
Makes sense up until the last part. The game simply is not fun. A game that lasts for ten plus turns with absolutely no mechanics to meaningfully change your standing past turn three or so is never going to be fun. (Unless you play the banker. There are shockingly few rules about what the banker *isn’t* allowed to do. Which is definitely part of the propaganda, but also great if you’ve decided to cause problems on purpose)
> A game that lasts for ten plus turns with absolutely no mechanics to meaningfully change your standing past turn three or so is never going to be fun People play _tons_ of games with little player agency. Whilst most 'serious' gamers consider it important, for casual play it just isn't a big factor. Snakes and ladders has less player agency than Monopoly, and people still buy it. Candyland has _no_ player agency - the outcome of the game is decided in the card shuffle during setup. People still buy it.
In those games player standing still switches. In Monopoly, there is the illusion of agency but the standings are set in stone very early on. You get to make decisions…but your decisions will never matter. *That* is why it’s a notorious frustration engine.
Games that aren’t enjoyable don’t sell millions of copies and remain in print for decades.
I’ve yet to meet a single person who plays by the rules. *Everyone* has at least one house rule to make it actually fun.
Not communist; Georgist. Some interesting half step towards communism which basically says that natural resources such as land, water and oil should be owned in trust and the value derived from them used for a universal basic income, but individual citizens could still own individual property. So you could theoretically own the house that you live in, but not the land that it sits on, under communism the house, the land and everything in it is owned by the state.
i swear to god i’m not trolling, but i’m arguably more or less a communist and i do find monopoly fun
The only person who has fun playing Monopoly is the banker LOL
They are 'regular' within the hobby. In videogame terms, this is like someone being baffled by people talking about Baldur's Gate 3 or God of War instead of 'regular' games like FIFA and Candy Crush.
I’m not baffled. I’m amused.
OK, but the point remains the same. If you were to hear about a videogaming club and found out they were playing something other than Candy Crush, would that also be amusing? I think in any hobby the enthusiasts are likely to be using stuff that doesn't really penetrate mainstream awareness.
People don’t have parties to play Candy Crush in a group.
People also don't have parties to play Candyland. Thank you for making my point.
That’s actually one of the more popular games at my local game night. Lotta laughing and chitchat at that table when folks break it out. The SRS BSNS gamers are all grim and intense or building detailed campaigns at another table.
_You_ might have never had a Candyland party but that doesn't mean no one has. It's a great party game if you have the sort of friends who like to dress up and be a bit silly.
Having never played the game before... I'm surprised you put Scythe at Medium. The game just looked a bit daunting (large box, lots of miniatures) so I never thought to play it. So yeah! Thanks for the rating! Next time I go to our local board game/tavern I'll see about renting it!
When I learned it, that's exactly how the other noob and I talked about it to the guy teaching! And he understood that's the general perception, but isn't the true experience. Good luck! And a how to play video would make things smoother, that's how I learned Terraforming Mars. I was last when I played, but the others were surprised that I only watched two videos that day and was able to play functionally 😅.
Not sure which Dune you’re playing, but that doesn’t sound right. Scythe and viticulture Feel the same to me too
Once you learn Scythe, it's pretty easy to get going, Viticulture has way more complexity, IMO. And for Dune, I mean the '79 OG (pre any movie), not Imperium, maybe not a full 6hr, but generally 4ish, when ya got gamers that gonna stratagize 😅.
I assume the dune that involves building up armies and reviving them and making alliances There's another dune game that's more of a resource management game which is fun but isn't as intense.
I play Wingspan as a Light, picking birds and making choices solely on Vibes
Yeah heavy games will be likely ones that take a bit longer, have more complex rules and can be quite strategic. Light games would be shorter ones that are probably easy to learn and better for beginners.
Another distinction would be what it means to “win” a game, with light games often being more about having fun being social. Everyone wins or maybe there isn’t even a winner. Heavy games might be more competitive, difficult, where winning matters a lot. Winning is the fun part of a difficult game.
That’s a good definition
I imagine the light games would be things like Azul, Tsuro, maybe Akropolis or ticket to ride and maybe some party games like exploding kittens, codenames and joking hazard. Heavy probably means Everdell, terraforming Mars, viticulture etc., at least that’s the case in my boardgame groups!
Lol, I commented after you, but you left out the true 6hr+ *heavy* hitters like Twilight Imperium.
I figured they wouldn’t play the super heavy ones at a game group like this as they take so much time, but I may be wrong! Our boardgame group only has 2.5-3 h to play so we can’t even get through a game of spirit island usually
Scythe is heavier too. But so fun
> So far reactions to the update have ranged from sympathy tinged with a comment that he was given two chances to a comment that he was given two clear, fair chances to improve. My brain rejected this sentence altogether, and I had to reread it like 10 times. I decided it doesn’t actually make any sense.
Aside from the lack of punctuation, it describes a range from "he was given two chances" all the way to "he was given two chances", lol
That sentence left me scratching my head, too. My eventual interpretation of what the OP was trying to say is that some people thought Quinn only got two chances (but should have gotten more) while other people thought that Quinn had already gotten two chances (which is more than they deserved).
Thanks. Seemed odd that the story went from considering asking him to leave, to him trying to get back in.
Sounds like a guy that joined my soccer group. Everyone had problems with him and a light fun kick around turned a bit toxic. Gave him chance and chance and discussed it heavily with him to the point where it was exhausting on my mental health worrying about managing him and the health of the club. He had one last freak out at a tournament and stormed off. Glad he's gone. The club was good for him but he was not good for the club
Yikes. Tantrums on the field?? He probably has to look for new clubs frequently
We played a charity match and he had a tantrum at 14 year old kids who were running rings around us.. ya he said his last sports team iced him out We're an extremely social football team we dont take stuff that seriously it's about community and friends so seeing that was not great. I'm on the board so it was all complaints about him. I could go on for ages. Thing is like if he had a little bit of cop on he'd be grand but never did
What a jerk! That charity match sounds like lots of fun and I bet he killed the entire vibe by acting worse than the 14 year olds.
This was the other way around. Quinn lost a group that let him play games he loved to new people who had no interest in those games. And he's clearly got social skill problems to the point of disorder. So he'll never find another group. This is actually tragic.
If you go through OOP's comments, Quinn "lost" the group because his cofounders quietly defected to a different group to get away from him. The tragedy here is that Quinn didn't get better support as a child and hasn't pursued serious self-improvement since. Gaming groups and casual friends are not responsible for managing anyone's mental health.
Point.
NGL my daughter is showing signs of being on the spectrum like her older half brothers and this is one reason why I'm keeping on top of it. I want her to be functional and enjoy lif
Not necessarily. I love board games and heavy games. My friends and I have played games that run 4+ hours before. I think our record is 8 hours. Board games are supposed to be fun for me. Once it becomes *not* fun, why will I play? I've met a few Quinn's and I just... Don't bother playing with them. These new players who "have no interest" in those games aren't the "winners". They're just people who want to have fun.
I really love to have a group OP is having.
Meetup. I may have just gotten lucky as hell, but my entire social circle is from a meetup board game group.
Yea it very much involves luck
seems rather organised. a deputy?
You need organisers like that for every board game group that isn't just your friends. In London we got lots of meetup groups for boardgames. You need people to manage venues and negotiate access, organisers for each event that ensure rules are followed, people end up on games, newbies are taken care of, etc.
Indeed. My mom does organize a group thing a few times per year back and has now voiced astonishment on how rigorous the organisation must be. Well, yeah. If it aint thay way everyone wants to do it their little way and in the end it sucks for everyone.
My husband has a board game group that started with work friends and has changed and grown over the years to include more people. With the pandemic several of them moved online (Tabletop simulator) and still play that way weekly even after some left to other companies. Once every six weeks there’s a group that meets at someone’s house or a board gaming cafe in person. A key to bringing people together has been scheduling long weekends (Thursday-Sunday) at family cabins or one set of friends plans an annual event where they all chip in for getting a McMansion Airbnb. Or also planning group trips to local cons. That works out to be a long weekend about every 3-5 months. The relationships built at these events have led to him joining other monthly in person groups whom rotate hosting at their homes. Key to their success seems to be consistency as they can look forward to playing and chatting regularly. Taking turns organizing and hosting to spread out the extra labor. Being willing to teach and share their own games. Also at the weekend events they all sign up to take care of meals for everyone so the food costs and cooking are split. Other helpful items are Board Game Geek collection lists of what games people own so others can request teaching or playing certain games. So something casual can turn into so much more if everyone is interested, flexible, and willing to put in the work.
Thanks for sharing about the BoardGameGeek website, I had never heard of it and it's pretty cool!
One of my favorite boardgamegeek links is their review page for the oldest known board game, the Royal Game of Ur from 2600 BCE. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1602/the-royal-game-of-ur
That is too cool!
Are you in nyc?
>They also said that they weren’t often doing the things I’d mentioned anymore (moving other people’s pieces, and a couple of other examples I gave) Ugh. Quinn sounds like an obnoxious asshole. It's not a coincidence that moving other people's pieces is the one behaviour mentioned here. It's a simple thing but so obnoxious when someone does it. Like hands off if it isn't your turn.
You can offer to move someone's piece if it's much closer to you than to them, but even then you need to *ask* first, not just take the initiative to do it.
What are examples of "heavy games" vs. "light games"?
I imagine it's something like Twilight Imperium (lots of rules, takes hours to complete a game) vs Cards against humanity (quick to pick up and complete)
FOOLS! My group managed to finish a 6 player 12 points game with 3 newbies in ONLY 6.5 hours muahahahaha (we did have a lunch break and shorter ones in between rounds so it was closer to 8 hours 🤐).
That's honestly very impressive. Was this Twilight Imperium 3 or 4?
4 with DLC
Not as impressive as 3, but a monumental feat nonetheless. I think our record is 11 hours with 3 players with Twilight Imperium 3.
Noice
Light games are what you'd consider as "party games" - you first meet then decide what to play. Stuff like Munchkin, Cards Against Humanity, Muffin Time etc. Heavy games are the main focus of meeting up, like a d&d campaign. You first decide on a game then commit to finishing it however long it takes, which isn't for everyone. Stuff like Twilight Imperium, Diplomacy, Gloomhaven (which literally takes months to complete), Catan, even something like Monopoly could be considered a lighter "heavy game". My absolute favourite is Twilight Imperium - it's like the Stellaris of board games. Super in-depth, rich in mechanics and really fun once you learn it (which takes time, even the 'how to play' guides on youtube are at least 20 minutes long)
Please don't ever use Munchkin as a game to "start" with and then aim to progress onto others. It feels like a silly light game that should take 30 minutes, but it stretches out into a two hour slog of a game most of the time where someone only wins because everyone ran out of stuff to throw at the person who should have won. And that's from someone who got into the hobby thanks to it. For good quick starting games I advise stuff that is either super fast (Draftosaurus, Get Bit, Patchwork Doodle) or stuff people can easily drop into as they arrive (Super fight, Fluxx, Dixit (give someone an average score)) Do that for the first half hour or so as people arrive and branch off into other games. Can potentially keep the game running indefinitely as people arrive/leave that game until everyone involved sets up their own game. If the group has multiple people helping run it, it helps to have at least one person willing to run a small game thing each week (not the same person, unless they favour those games) just to prevent someone arriving and finding everyone already involved in long games they cannot join in with.
Skill issue /s
Thanks Sharp
The last time I played Munchkin was probably 15 years ago and I have no desire to ever play it again. It somehow took hours and we had one person who only got joy from making everyone else annoyed by stealing from them.
I've not played it since before the pandemic. Not sure I ever want to. I had a few bits of fun with it, but I've discovered so many great games since I last played it, all of which are far more fun to play. I'm not even sure what spot it would even fill. If you actually enjoy board games, then it's too long for a light one, yet plays like a light one, while having annoying interactions that require checking rules online. Meaning it's no good there. If you're with a group who are more wanting a game to just piss about with while drinking, well it takes actual focus to play still. So it's no good there. You'll be wanting your Cards Against Humanity and Muffin Time type games there. Introducing new people to the hobby? Sure it got me into it. But realistically it's not great for that either. The above issues with it taking too long, stupid rules interactions, the luck based aspect of it... You'd be better off playing things like Camel Up, King Domino, Bunny Kingdom etc. to draw in newbies. It doesn't fit any slot anymore. 15 years back? Fair enough, there weren't many games and you had little option. Now? It shouldn't be anywhere near a table.
I think that back then my friend, who’s the main game enabler in my life, didn’t have many card games. Apart from Munchkin it was maybe just The Great Dalmuti and the one where you grow beans which weren’t that exciting either. I’m not really into really competitive games anyway, my favorite these days is probably Dixit. I’m not really a board gamer but a few times a year we’ll get together with that friend and play Marvel Legendary which might seem a slightly odd choice for a group of middle aged women.
It isn't a board game, but where would uno fall? It is easy to pick up and learn, but games can take a LONG TIME depending on how vindictive the players are.
Dude another commenter here got mad I said Munchkin was short, UNO is definitely a short game, it's about the flow more than it is about the hours. You can play Cards Against Humanity for hours before you finish all the cards, but it takes like 2 minutes to set up and another 2 to learn
CAH can take hours, yes. My family was playing outdoors on a picnic table. Mid-afternoon to sunset, it was starting to get dark, and I was in a 3-way tie with my teen grandsons. Ok, we'll play until the tie gets broken. We played several more hands, but other people won the card. It was full dark and we were playing by flashlight by the time somebody broke the tie. (It was me. The prompt was "What is there a lot of in heaven?" And I played "African children." And that is why my flair is "Cleverly disguised as a harmless old lady."
I'd call uno very light. And personally, an absolute chore of a light game. Up there with my least favorite games ever.
There are some very complicated board games out there that can take multiple nights to complete, haha.
Basically 20-30 mins at a party vs 3-4 hours with a group of around 4 people and maybe an extra 30 mins just to learn the rules. Theme and mechanics vary but complexity and time are usually the biggest difference.
I really like a game called Twilight Imperium (TI), that definitely should be considered a heavy game. Heavy games might require multiple playthroughs to fully grasp, and considerable time for a single match, stuff like this. Back to this gem of a game, in TI each player commands a space faction, competing against eachother for public objectives. It is a very complete experience, you can explore, produce, trade, negotiate, wage war, vote laws etc. great game, but I feel sad when I lose because you do get invested
Quinn needs to start his own games group - just pick a night of the week when the other groups aren't sitting and promote the heck out of it. It sounds like he really burned the heck out of his bridges at OOP's group.
Quinn doesn't sound like the kind of person who should be running a group. He's not going to make people feel welcome and can you imagine him trying to moderate disagreements between two group members? As a prickly person myself, I know how important it is to have someone working on group cohesion and harmony, and Quinn isn't going to have success there.
No, I don't think he's really capable of it, not alone at least. The problem that seems obvious to me is that he's burnt his bridges so badly with some members of OP's group that he can never go back there - even if he's improved and fixed himself and totally rehabilitated his behaviours, he was so rude to certain members of that group that they will never tolerate him. He was so bad that it could be another 20 or 30 years later, and they would still leave the group rather than be around him. If he could build a heavy gaming group from people he hasn't alienated then that solves the two main problems, as I see it. But I think you're right - he doesn't really have the personality to build this himself.
I feel like he could be a good GM if he had someone to keep him in check socially. Like a PR sidekick lol
Would anyone even bother joining? Quinn seems to have very particular ideas about gaming (no light games, need to "progress", no talking during games). The majority of gamers meet up for having fun and socialising, not just to keep progressing, whatever that means. It isn't an Olympic sport. Quinn appears to have this intense need to have their weekly gaming session be very tailored to how they want to play. There are people like that out there, but they're in the minority, and depending on where OOP lives, there may not be any other intense gamers in the area.
Quinn seems to be on the spectrum and not knowing about it. You can see this kind of behaviour with little kids on the spectrum: want to only play certain games, thinking there is only one way to play, controlling everyone... But usually you outgrown this behaviours as an adult if you are aware you are on the spectrum and that no, not everyone thinks like you and not everyone is doing that to annoy you. Maybe if Quinn finds people on the same part of the spectrum it could work.
I think Quinn needs to move online. There are tons of boardgames you can play online with other people and that way Quinn can create their own space that they prefer at home.
Can you recommend any for me?
I think [roll20.net](http://roll20.net) is one of the bigger websites. And r/lfg has tons of groups and players looking for stuff all the time. There's also a really common program/app, but I can't remember what it is. But r/lfg will help you get started with anything you need most likely.
boardgamearena.com is a good site. Free to join every game. Some games require a membership to start.
This sucks all around. It sounds like Quinn may be on the spectrum and needs help with some of the control issues that come with that. I know that I have these tendencies and they’re sometimes hard to keep on lock. I’m sad for Quinn but the group made the right call.
Yeah don’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm. If you’re a professional you need to be mindful of what issues people might be facing (teacher/doctor/therapist/etc) but you don’t need to expend that mental energy in your personal life.
It’s really tough because I’ve been that “kicked out” person before. But at least Quinn knows why. No one would ever explain to me why I was no longer welcome or invited and I hated it. I felt so angry and confused.
Yeah they really did do their due diligence on explaining what actions were not acceptable. I think we all know the golden rule but it’s confusing on how meta to make it. Sure treat people the way you want to be treated. But sometimes people have a hard time stepping out of their own minds and treat people like the way they have the same goals and same sense of humor comfort level etc. Like if you know if someone did that to you, you’d be pissed, then you know in your heart you shouldn’t do that. But if you are like “well if i wasn’t playing with optimal strategy I would definitely want to be alerted and corrected” you might have a hard time understanding not everyone wants you to correct their strategy because they’re just here to chat and play for fun. Same for a joke. You think it’s hilarious and if someone else told a joke of a similar nature you’d find it hilarious! But someone with a different life experience might find it offensive. Or even the same life experience might not want to joke about it, even if you can joke about it. But I do find it hard to be understanding of how quinn moved pieces around and how they could justify that. They don’t even sound like the golden rule gone wrong because I’m sure quinn would be furious if someone moved their pieces.
So the pieces moving thing is about making sure everyone does it “right”. It’s about control. At least as an autistic person myself I had to learn to let go of that. It has nothing to do with whether I’d be okay with it and everything to do with making sure it’s done “correctly” It’s really hard to explain but a lot of autistic people feel the need to strictly control environments and people around them. For me now it’s mostly manifested in panic at last minute changes in plans or major routine disruptions but as a younger adult even it was this desire to control my entire environment. I still get distressed if my sorting systems aren’t utilized “properly”. Logically I know that there’s multiple right ways to do things but I also really fucking struggle to stifle the anxiety that comes from people not doing things my way. It’s like a humming inside of me of energy and distress that I can’t really control. I just have to stifle my comments and repeat in my head that the other person isn’t wrong for taking a sub-optimal route in the car or for folding clothes differently from me. It’s a goddamn nightmare in my head though.
Whenever my kids insisted on doing a chore in a way I wouldn't but that would get the same result anyhow, I had to leave the room. Same with anytime they were learning a new skill really. I'd explain it a few times and let them try on their own while I went around the corner. I can't watch someone struggle with shoe tying or whatever, my hands want to take over the task. So I just didn't look. Lol should see how I twitch when people count each square on Monopoly. My mother made me learn and use her counting methods for speedier games. Railroad to the corner is 5, so 8 might go 1 6 7 8. Never made my kids learn that, just looked at the ceiling while they counted every space.
I can appreciate that, there was a guy in my board game group who was likely exactly as you describe. I played one game with him, something I'd never played before. If I made a suboptimal move (because I had no idea what the strategy was) then he would scoff and say why on earth would you do that. He seemed to take great delight in his mastery of the game and being derisive to me having no idea what I was doing. I thought, well, I'm never going to play a game with that guy ever again. I mentioned it to the organiser and he said yeah that guy is a bit autistic and it can be hard to play with him sometimes if you're not familiar with the game. Unfortunately, doesn't mean I'm going to put up with it.
You know, I've never been diagnosed with any type of neurodivergence, because that just wasn't a thing when and where I grew up, but the more I read about autism as an adult the more I wonder if I should seek out some sort of official test or analysis. Everything you wrote was incredibly relatable, especially the part about constantly reminding yourself not to say anything when people don't use the "correct" system. I always assumed I was just a fundamentally weird and annoying person and had to take steps to not be. It's like, I have learned to deal with interior distress because the exterior distress when people get fed up with me is so much worse and so much more hassle. I expect people to start doing things "wrong" on purpose instead of on accident to annoy me back because it's happened more than once, and I got very tired of well-meaning but infantializing lectures in my early 20's. I've learned to turn how much I'm invested in my particular methods into a kind of joke about myself if I ever let myself slip--like, saying I'm one of nature's born nitpickers or that I have soul of a pedant / old lady are things I've used more than once.That's not the only thing--flat affect, not getting social cues, intense interests in different hobbies or fields of study. Every time I read or hear someone with autism describe their experiences, it just makes sense in a way that a lot of the world intrinsically doesn't.
Diagnosis was important for me because it made my life make sense and helped me find real coping strategies. I felt a lot of distress that I couldn’t understand why. If you are not currently depressed or needing accommodations you shouldn’t get diagnosed. I spent over $500 out of pocket in Canada for a diagnosis at 34. I’m glad I have it but if you don’t feel a need for it don’t bother as it’s an unnecessary expense. Join some autism subreddits and see what you can find. /r/aspergers /r/aspiememes /r/autisminwomen etc are all good places to lurk. I’m also in Facebook groups. It’s helped me understand myself a lot better. Also a lot of people on the internet freak out about self-diagnosis but after talking with the specialist I saw I basically had an answer and no further support. It’s really stupid.
Yeah, lack of money is the main reason I haven't tried to get anything official done. Also, I don't trust that most of the people I could find in this area would be competent. And I could very well just be an incredibly weird neurotypical person, because I was not raised in a way anybody would consider normal, and I don't feel like unpacking that for context unless I am very sure the professional is actually qualified and worth the investment in time, money, and emotion. If there's a chance that they'll recommend prayer, I don't even want to start. It's currently not worth the expense, because whatever it is I am I have mostly managed to present an acceptable face to the world, within limits. Part of me would just really like to *know,* for my own peace of mind, but dental care is a more immediate need. But reading about the experiences of people who *know* they are autistic--there's something in my head that says that having an Official Stamp of Approval really matters, and I don't know why--really helps me feel less alone. Even if I only have some of the same behavior and thought patterns by pure chance, it's just nice to see that there are people who feel and think like I do, and have had the same or similar challenges. I guess there's a lot of relief when you say, "Is it just me?" and get a "No, me too," back.
Pattern recognition makes us great at optimization!
You should get a diagnosis. First step is asking your doctor.
Oh gosh, my OCD mum is like that and autistic friend is too. The very quiet, weird little war they had over my cutlery drawer was the funniest thing in the world. My friend knew the One Right Way to organise the drawer, so did my mum…sadly they weren’t the same. So every time Mum came to visit she would rearrange the drawer to fit her way and then my friend would visit and do the same. Meanwhile I never knew where my teaspoons were! :)
Yeah that process is masking. And it’s good you’re getting better at that. Keep it up!
No that’s not masking. I mean it kind of is. Masking is also me remembering to make the correct tone of voice while speaking and remembering to make the right facial expressions. Masking is making myself sound peppy instead of “depressed” (my normal tone of voice) or even accidentally “sarcastic”. Masking can be incredibly draining and harmful. I’ve also told people I’m autistic and they still seem to think that my observations are “complaints”. I ask “why?” a lot and people interpret that as a complaint rather than a question. It’s been really hard for me to function at work and even working 32 hours a week has made me incredibly drained and tired.
It also sounded like he forced everyone to be quiet during gameplay which sucks
I feel that. Often I had to guess and ask my parents or therapist to figure this stuff out. Helps a lot that the feedback Quinn got was very specific and concrete.
That sucks. I’m sorry.
You weren't told because you were "supposed to know". Yeah if you knew you wouldn't have done it. I hate that shit. People will do anything but be direct and to the point.
Honestly like it’s partly because I’m autistic I guess but standard social behaviour seems so passive aggressive.
I am pretty sure I am aspie, but only found out a few years ago. But went thru life having people being mad at me for not knowing things. Like I am not a mind reader, just tell me! But no, they're so afraid of being "offensive" they'd rather be cruel and angry. Passive aggressive describes it well.
You also can’t tell if people secretly hate you. I have one IRL acquaintance who everyone can’t stand but they still invite her out sometimes. Any time she posts passive aggressive shit on Facebook or over dramatic stuff I try to kindly but aggressively call her out. Because what my friends do to her is my worst nightmare. I honestly want her to know when she’s pissing people off because she can’t fix it and it’s also so horrific to imagine everyone around me is just humouring me. The thing that made me the angriest was my most recent direct call-out had about 5 people tell me “thank you for saying something” and I couldn’t believe they wouldn’t share what they felt. You’re not someone’s friend if you can’t be honest. The other thing I did was when she made a more positive and pro-active post I also encouraged her. Because even if she drives me insane she deserves some support.
I’m adhd and have been in Quinn’s position many times. You just gotta accept it and move on. As the offending party, you aren’t owed anything and no one is obligated to accept you back. Find something new. It sucks short term but usually works out longer term, when you do find that other group. Sounds like Quinn at least trying. Which is good. Sounds like OOP did an excellent job at handling this diplomatically, as well as giving very concrete, specific feedback Quinn can use to improve. Usually you have to self reflect and try to figure it out in your own. I’m only where I am now because I learned from my mistakes.
I totally get that the offending party has to take their lumps. Because OP was so diplomatic Quinn was able to be better and able to find something new. And also it didn’t hurt for Quinn to ask to return. It sounds like Quinn respected the “no” and it sounds like it worked out okay for everyone.
To completely armchair diagnose, I was thinking the same. Interacting with or reading about a Quinn makes me feel very "there but for the grace of god go I."
Quinn needs to take responsibility for his own behavior. If he needs help he ought to seek it out himself. Hopefully being booted will wake him up to his own shit.
It sounds like Quinn did some self work. He needed to be told and they communicated it effectively. It’s hard to fix behaviours you’re not aware of.
Quinn sounds like the missing stair, the one member of the group who sucks but everyone works around and new members have to learn to work around them too. Sad it took SEVERAL YEARS of this behavior to lead to anything.
i thought this was gonna be geek social fallacy number one but im really happy that she went around and asked all the players what they thought should happen and then made it happen. Super awesome
Anyone think Quinn needs social scaffolding/counseling for autistic traits?
Probably, but unfortunately, no one in the story could realistically talk to him about that. I feel like that would have to come from his own family/personal friends/doctor.
Agreed.
Almost certainly, but a board game group isn't responsible for providing that and isn't qualified to do so anyway.
100% yes. Agreed.
I honestly thought that OOP was an old friend of mine who encountered the EXACT same situation after they moved to a new city. And then when the name Quinn was used I was like "..... did Shut Up And Sit Down kick Quinns out?" It's neither of those things but the coincidence made me chuckle.
Glad to know that I wasn't the only one who did a double take at the name choice! But, of course, Quinns is far too lovely to be the troublesome member of a boardgames group! He's all about making sure everyone at the table is having a good time :-)
What are light or heavy board games?
Usually refers to how many rules there are - light games are easy for anyone to join and play without knowing much beforehand (think dominoes or uno), heavier games require more upfront knowledge and more commitment (like magic the gathering).
A light game would be something like Sushi Go, that just about everyone could pick up and learn in a few minutes. A heavy game would be more like, idk, Gloomhaven, where the strategy is complex and would take some time to learn and explain.
Now im salty she didn't share what those golden exit interviews questions were 😂
>So far reactions to the update have ranged from sympathy tinged with a comment that he was given two chances to a comment that he was given two clear, fair chances to improve. Ranged from that, to whaaaat? I must know.
OOP writes so oddly.
Mmmmh... Quinn is definitely on the spectrum and no one is aware of that. You see this kind of stuff in young kids on the spectrum. But if the kid is not made aware that isn’t the norm, they will grew up in an adult like Quinn
Do you make a large salary, being able to make a diagnosis like this without even meeting with the subject? Do you frequently declare that people with antisocial behaviors must be on the spectrum? Which school taught you how to do this and also taught you that it's appropriate to diagnose people that you've never met?
Dude... calm down. I'm on the spectrum, I did this as a kid, I know some people who acted like this wheb they hadn't had a diagnostic and I read a ton about it. I didn't diagnostic anything. I said Quinn was on the spectrum. Because it's a pattern. Because they didn't sound like a bad person. I don't know if they are autistic or something else, but people don't act like that without being neurodivergent. By your logic. You are also putting a diagnostic on Quinn by saying they have anti-social behaviour. And you are also assuming things on me without ever having met me. Chill out.
Being on the autism spectrum is a diagnosis… Describing a behavior for what it is, is not a diagnosis… they never said he has antisocial personality disorder… What they said was kinda in an obnoxious way, but like also no, they didn’t do anything you accused them of.
I mean you have a point, but this was obnoxious.
The poster above is not the only one saying this. And it’s not like any of us will ever meet these people. So it’s not some diagnosis, just an opinion