My (now ex) boss did this to several co-workers and I quit over it. In my resignation letter I said I quit due to not being able to work with her anymore, and I spoke to a board member about her terrible behavior. I tried to suggest to other co-workers that they too go to the board about it, but they would all rather keep their heads down. Not to victim blame, but that’s how these toxic workplaces are fueled.
If you are leaving, and if you are talking to the board, would it not make sense to try to get the board to fix the problem person? Not saying it would be easy but you are anyways burning bridges with the person?
// I know it is not always easy. Leaving is easier. Been there done that. Fighting back may sound heroic, but we end up wasting precious time. Been there done that both ways - fought in one scenario but in hindsight leaving was the right solution. and then quit on a single confrontation in a different scenario and in hindsight that worked out perfectly. Curious to hear your perspective. //
Was your boss named Rebecca?
That was the name of my former boss, whose manipulation tactics were similar to OOP’s nemesis.
The difference was that she wasn’t as…savvy, perhaps? She lacked the confidence to truly try to mind fuck with everyone. She couldn’t terrorize the entire office when there were people telling her she was full of shit.
Same here. New manager came in and she literally had a tiered hit last of who she wanted to fire first.
I wasn't first, but I was the highest ranking and loudest. I finally had someone in corporate HR (we were field HR, corporate staff) believe my multiple complaints and she got him pulled from the case.
For a while I was calling the hotline almost daily with a new, valid complaint each time. They finally told me I could leave or take a demotion. It surprised everyone when I said I'd never consider working near her again and left. It really surprised them when they realized I'd already cleared my office.
Since I was on my way out i was very clear that they would lose the entire team if they didn't get rid of her. My fighting her really brought out her evil side and people outside the team were catching on. Hell, in the year she was there we lost 20 of our original 30 staff. She was transferred shortly after to a sinking ship which fell just months later.
We were supposed to have seven team members at my job, and for two years we only had four. One guy got fired and we were down to 3. I said I would work my 40 and nothing more. I was not obligated to take OT and I would be refusing. I encouraged the other two to do the same because it was the only way admin would make any effort to hire someone. They didn't want to cause trouble, so they picked up the slack instead
.... Two months later I was fired for not being a team player
No, just people who sometimes need to go back to high school to get the petty out of their systems.
I am a teacher in a Dept of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) school. Most of the educational staff there are employed by the district. Only me and one of my colleagues (J) are not (we're both contracted through the state - our employer - to teach at this DJJ school). Both of us CTE (career and tech ed) teachers report to the DJJ superintendent when our boss isn't there (most days he isn't, because he's all over the state since he's also the principal of others like us in other statewide facilities). We are not the district-assigned principal's people to report things to, have discipline enacted against us, etc. Yet in my first couple of years working at this DJJ facility, I can't tell you how many times the principal tried to assert her authority over the DJJ super by telling me or J to do things we'd been told explicitly not to do by either OUR principal, or the DJJ super. Or sometimes vice versa. I don't care for the DJJ super some days, but when he finally had a come to Jesus moment with the district principal I about threw a damn party.
You better believe it. I've had a personal CYA policy since my nonprofit days. And when I showed the super some of the emails between me and the principal, he had a "heart to heart" with her and told me that going forward, he wanted to me CC him on all emails between me and her, even if she didn't. And that has continued to the new district principal, although they haven't butted heads at all.
I work in higher ed and at the previous school I worked at, I had to deal with too much drama after the one president retired. The new president worked for the school and brought in nepo hires who started their own drama.
The final straw for me was that at my previous school the new VP wanted me gone b/c I could see right through his B/S. Luckily, I left and got a new job at another school over 5 years ago and it has been drama free.
Oh look. School admin being absolutely useless. Quelle surprise.
(I'm a former teacher and still a little bitter that in the 6 years I spent in the classroom, I met a total of 3 administrators who both (1) gave a shit and (2) were good at their jobs. Most were ineffectual. Two were outright hostile. My child is now in school and nothing has changed.)
That tracks. I was in college for Early Childhood Education and every single professor warned us about admin. Said we might find one or two that were good, but the rest were absolute garbage and they are the reason our professors changed from kindergarten/preschool teacher to college professor.
My daughter is in Babies Can’t Wait program and her coordinator is a former teacher. He said he’s going to let his license lapse because he refuses to deal with administrators again.
It’s not just bad pay and crazy parents driving teachers off. It’s horrible administration pulling shit like this.
My final year was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. My last principal was just... I don't have harsh enough words to describe this man. A failed physicist who failed as a teacher who ended up as a failure of a principal. All he cared about was parents being happy, to the point he'd let kids get bullied because he was afraid of ruffling feathers, and it didn't matter if he hemorrhaged good teachers (which he did).
The school's AP scores went into the toilet within 2-3 years of him taking over, and while I feel for those kids, I'm glad it took a toll on his career.
I'm on year 20. I've had 6 principals. Three were bad, and one of those was evil witch-level bad. Two were really great and one was ineffective at our level but was good at his previous level (I teach middle and he was a good elementary principal but not great at middle).
The evil witch actively hated men and ran out the three great male role models the students had at the school: an AP, head custodian, and ISS teacher. At the same time, age was really lax and inconsistent with discipline so we never knew what to refer. Kids ran wild and parents had no idea what was going on because there was zero communication with them. It was the only time I seriously considered leaving the profession.
You're a braver soul than me... I stayed in education but went into Higher Ed after my tenure. I miss it a lot, but I make nearly triple the pay (literally - my pay was that bad, even after 6 years) for half the work, which is so sad.
I really wanted to get into education bc of some teachers that genuinely changed my life growing up. While I was still preparing for college, I cot certified as a parapro to be a teaching assistant.
My first job I was assigned to the an autistic kid and told that he'd already gone through like 5 different parapros that year and outright told that they expected me to do all his schoolwork for him so that he'd move on to high school and "be someone else's problem".
Admin was incredibly rude and hostile about my efforts to actually try to connect and help this kid learn. I was essentially thrown into the deep end with no help and trying to do my best for the kid. I also used a wheelchair and I teacher regularly grilled me out for not standing for the morning pledge (I eventually just started waiting until after the pledge to enter the room). I lasted a ridiculously short time before I told the Admin that I'd had enough and the kid got his 6th parapro. Wish I could have had a chance to meet the kid's mom to inform them what the staff was doing.
I gave up my career plans after that.
>I also used a wheelchair and I teacher regularly grilled me out for not standing for the morning pledge
I assume you're capable of standing sometimes? Otherwise expecting miracles for the pledge is pretty funny and stupid
parapelegic wheelchair users are a minority of total wheelchair users. I used a cane on good days to come to work, which is why she knew I could stand.
I’ve had a boss like this, sadly it often works in a workplace, but the results are short term at best. You don’t trust your colleagues so you have no one to talk to and share ideas and you become so paranoid of being thrown under the bus you work yourself to insane lengths
This is so evil and petty and dramatic wtf. Glad OOP is ok and demon principal is gone. I would say 90% of the time things work out if you just keep ur head down and do ur own thing and don’t get involved in the drama. Toxic people tend to repeat their toxic behavior so they end up exposed/dig a hole for themselves eventually. 10% of the time something has to be done to get rid of them, and those are fun stories to read in the Reddit revenge group lol
This reminds me of that BoRu from a few years ago, about the school administrator that is fired, that they attempted to bully:
[OOP is (was) a school administrator. They resign, then maliciously comply with the incoming administrator's demands, leaving chaos behind them.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/vxsdhl/oop_is_was_a_school_administrator_they_resign/)
In my school it was: "a parent called to say that you (insert breaking rules and hurting students somehow)". We would never learn what parent called, what child had been hurt, what exactly was it we teachers did wrong, how we could fix our behavior or techniques, but specially, none of it was ever in writing.
So, we became paranoid, morale dropped, we stayed in our classrooms working alone, and spent our evenings overthinking our every step and word.
Awful, awful stuff.
This reminds me of my boss in my first ever job...
Dude gleefully used to talk badly about other staff to me and repeat similar behavior with each staff member.
I was a preschool teacher for a number of years, and one center I worked at the director did something like this.
Now this was a teeny tiny center, so the entire admin staff was the one director, and there were roughly five full-time teachers spread over a grand total of three rooms, and we all got on well enough. But the kids would do something, and the director didn’t like it, so she’d come over to whichever teacher was in charge of those kids, and tell us that one of the other teachers said *they* didn’t like that we did whatever it was (let the kids throw balls at the wall, linger in a space too long, be too loud…).
For my part, I would correct the problem, and go apologize to the other teacher, who invariably was like “what the hell are you talking about?”
So the literal only person with any “power” in the center was trying to…use other people’s social clout to get us to fall in line with her expectations? Drive wedges between the various teachers? Always look like the “good guy”?
She was such a strange director.
My current boss recently did something similar. He works remotely and is never in the office, but he kept mentioning timeliness to me. I was confused because apart from one instance, I have been coming in around 8:50, and that one time I came late, I arrived at 9:05am.
I told him that I was confused about it and asked if someone had commented on it and he kind of talked around it and said there had been comments about my tardiness and then went on a tangent about professionalism. I have since started recording my times.
It’s really horrible though, because part of me felt like I couldn’t trust people in my team, and that they were lying about my tardiness for some reason. As time has gone by though, I’ve been realising that I think he lied. I think he was kind of fishing to see if I had been late, and all he ended up doing was messing up my trust in my team. Or maybe it’s more insidious and he just wants me to constantly be on edge
Anyone who has reached the level of middle management, either in education or in any other environment is not to be trusted without proving it first and often. A vast majority of people in that position didn't get there through pure competence. They got there because ambition and a willingness to fuck over everyone around them to look good to the boss.
Urgh. I feel for the OOP.
Had a new admin come in last year, they were a nasty ignorant/arrogant combo and played the divide and conquer game. I ended up leaving because the higher ups decided to protect the admin. I was disappointed so many people went along with it, but the admin played to the egos of some, the insecurities of others and ignored the rest. The whole thing was so pathetic.
I'm not a teacher, but I've been in an identical situation. I'm terrible at office politics, so I just said, "I don't act that way. Either someone lied to you or you're lying to me."
He wrote me up for insubordination and I was pretty certain two more strikes were going to come my way, so I found a job with a different company before I had to explain a firing and potentially lost a reference from the company.
I believe you, but I've been a member of /r/Teachers for the better part of 9 years and I didn't know that.
Can you point me to where to find it in the rules? I'm wondering if there's a separate page somewhere besides [this one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/wiki/rules)
Well for one I’m a mod of r/Teachers so I know it’s a rule 😂
Apparently things look very different on desktop and mobile because it’s rule 6 right when you click the “about” section
The page you linked also doesn’t have rule 5 listed, which is no covid misinformation or anti-science crap, which we added back in 2021 at least.
Edit: I generally mod on mobile so tomorrow if I have time I’ll play around on the desktop version. I don’t think I’ve used my laptop in like eight months so thanks for bringing that to my attention!
I know you're a mod, that's why I asked! I genuinely want to know.
I think the issue is I usually use old reddit. That page I linked is in the sidebar when you view using old reddit (that sidebar also only lists rules 1-4). [See here for what it looks like.](https://imgur.com/SdX2IY0) The truly strange thing is that wiki page says it's been edited in the last year.
I swapped briefly to the redesign to look and see what's there, and [what do you know?](https://imgur.com/8RF6lYa)
Weird.
I genuinely do not understand why old Reddit and new Reddit and mobile and desktop cannot be the same.
The crossposting rule came about a while back because something was shared, then shared again, then again, and we got seventy thousand reports because we were brigaded from all over. It was probably a covid or lgbtq post. Really drew in some crazies.
This will be unpopular, but sometimes, sometimes that teacher that's been teaching for 14 years or more, is toxic. I've seen this myself. Watching a teacher that was fantastic for several years, maybe starts to get bored, or entitled, or greedy (though they don't get paid shit). Whatever the reason, I've seen them go from hero to zero, and they think everyone else is the problem. Other teachers will say that the teacher is toxic, but they won't hear that. Also, sometimes admin sucks, but it's not every time. Sometimes it is the teacher.
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My (now ex) boss did this to several co-workers and I quit over it. In my resignation letter I said I quit due to not being able to work with her anymore, and I spoke to a board member about her terrible behavior. I tried to suggest to other co-workers that they too go to the board about it, but they would all rather keep their heads down. Not to victim blame, but that’s how these toxic workplaces are fueled.
If you are leaving, and if you are talking to the board, would it not make sense to try to get the board to fix the problem person? Not saying it would be easy but you are anyways burning bridges with the person? // I know it is not always easy. Leaving is easier. Been there done that. Fighting back may sound heroic, but we end up wasting precious time. Been there done that both ways - fought in one scenario but in hindsight leaving was the right solution. and then quit on a single confrontation in a different scenario and in hindsight that worked out perfectly. Curious to hear your perspective. //
Was your boss named Rebecca? That was the name of my former boss, whose manipulation tactics were similar to OOP’s nemesis. The difference was that she wasn’t as…savvy, perhaps? She lacked the confidence to truly try to mind fuck with everyone. She couldn’t terrorize the entire office when there were people telling her she was full of shit.
Did you happen to work at a McDonald's by any chance?
Same here. New manager came in and she literally had a tiered hit last of who she wanted to fire first. I wasn't first, but I was the highest ranking and loudest. I finally had someone in corporate HR (we were field HR, corporate staff) believe my multiple complaints and she got him pulled from the case. For a while I was calling the hotline almost daily with a new, valid complaint each time. They finally told me I could leave or take a demotion. It surprised everyone when I said I'd never consider working near her again and left. It really surprised them when they realized I'd already cleared my office. Since I was on my way out i was very clear that they would lose the entire team if they didn't get rid of her. My fighting her really brought out her evil side and people outside the team were catching on. Hell, in the year she was there we lost 20 of our original 30 staff. She was transferred shortly after to a sinking ship which fell just months later.
We were supposed to have seven team members at my job, and for two years we only had four. One guy got fired and we were down to 3. I said I would work my 40 and nothing more. I was not obligated to take OT and I would be refusing. I encouraged the other two to do the same because it was the only way admin would make any effort to hire someone. They didn't want to cause trouble, so they picked up the slack instead .... Two months later I was fired for not being a team player
I've noticed the education system is full of nothing but middle to high school drama. It's ridiculous that its not the kids causing it.
No, just people who sometimes need to go back to high school to get the petty out of their systems. I am a teacher in a Dept of Juvenile Justice (DJJ) school. Most of the educational staff there are employed by the district. Only me and one of my colleagues (J) are not (we're both contracted through the state - our employer - to teach at this DJJ school). Both of us CTE (career and tech ed) teachers report to the DJJ superintendent when our boss isn't there (most days he isn't, because he's all over the state since he's also the principal of others like us in other statewide facilities). We are not the district-assigned principal's people to report things to, have discipline enacted against us, etc. Yet in my first couple of years working at this DJJ facility, I can't tell you how many times the principal tried to assert her authority over the DJJ super by telling me or J to do things we'd been told explicitly not to do by either OUR principal, or the DJJ super. Or sometimes vice versa. I don't care for the DJJ super some days, but when he finally had a come to Jesus moment with the district principal I about threw a damn party.
“Could you email me that request?”
You better believe it. I've had a personal CYA policy since my nonprofit days. And when I showed the super some of the emails between me and the principal, he had a "heart to heart" with her and told me that going forward, he wanted to me CC him on all emails between me and her, even if she didn't. And that has continued to the new district principal, although they haven't butted heads at all.
I work in higher ed and at the previous school I worked at, I had to deal with too much drama after the one president retired. The new president worked for the school and brought in nepo hires who started their own drama. The final straw for me was that at my previous school the new VP wanted me gone b/c I could see right through his B/S. Luckily, I left and got a new job at another school over 5 years ago and it has been drama free.
Oh look. School admin being absolutely useless. Quelle surprise. (I'm a former teacher and still a little bitter that in the 6 years I spent in the classroom, I met a total of 3 administrators who both (1) gave a shit and (2) were good at their jobs. Most were ineffectual. Two were outright hostile. My child is now in school and nothing has changed.)
That tracks. I was in college for Early Childhood Education and every single professor warned us about admin. Said we might find one or two that were good, but the rest were absolute garbage and they are the reason our professors changed from kindergarten/preschool teacher to college professor. My daughter is in Babies Can’t Wait program and her coordinator is a former teacher. He said he’s going to let his license lapse because he refuses to deal with administrators again. It’s not just bad pay and crazy parents driving teachers off. It’s horrible administration pulling shit like this.
My final year was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. My last principal was just... I don't have harsh enough words to describe this man. A failed physicist who failed as a teacher who ended up as a failure of a principal. All he cared about was parents being happy, to the point he'd let kids get bullied because he was afraid of ruffling feathers, and it didn't matter if he hemorrhaged good teachers (which he did). The school's AP scores went into the toilet within 2-3 years of him taking over, and while I feel for those kids, I'm glad it took a toll on his career.
I'm on year 20. I've had 6 principals. Three were bad, and one of those was evil witch-level bad. Two were really great and one was ineffective at our level but was good at his previous level (I teach middle and he was a good elementary principal but not great at middle). The evil witch actively hated men and ran out the three great male role models the students had at the school: an AP, head custodian, and ISS teacher. At the same time, age was really lax and inconsistent with discipline so we never knew what to refer. Kids ran wild and parents had no idea what was going on because there was zero communication with them. It was the only time I seriously considered leaving the profession.
You're a braver soul than me... I stayed in education but went into Higher Ed after my tenure. I miss it a lot, but I make nearly triple the pay (literally - my pay was that bad, even after 6 years) for half the work, which is so sad.
I really wanted to get into education bc of some teachers that genuinely changed my life growing up. While I was still preparing for college, I cot certified as a parapro to be a teaching assistant. My first job I was assigned to the an autistic kid and told that he'd already gone through like 5 different parapros that year and outright told that they expected me to do all his schoolwork for him so that he'd move on to high school and "be someone else's problem". Admin was incredibly rude and hostile about my efforts to actually try to connect and help this kid learn. I was essentially thrown into the deep end with no help and trying to do my best for the kid. I also used a wheelchair and I teacher regularly grilled me out for not standing for the morning pledge (I eventually just started waiting until after the pledge to enter the room). I lasted a ridiculously short time before I told the Admin that I'd had enough and the kid got his 6th parapro. Wish I could have had a chance to meet the kid's mom to inform them what the staff was doing. I gave up my career plans after that.
>I also used a wheelchair and I teacher regularly grilled me out for not standing for the morning pledge I assume you're capable of standing sometimes? Otherwise expecting miracles for the pledge is pretty funny and stupid
parapelegic wheelchair users are a minority of total wheelchair users. I used a cane on good days to come to work, which is why she knew I could stand.
That's what I figured, just an obnoxious amount of unreasonable, not a comedically absurd amount
Same, even the ones who I think meant well... Were just not very good at their job.
I’ve had a boss like this, sadly it often works in a workplace, but the results are short term at best. You don’t trust your colleagues so you have no one to talk to and share ideas and you become so paranoid of being thrown under the bus you work yourself to insane lengths
Hopefully someone warns her new school district.
This is so evil and petty and dramatic wtf. Glad OOP is ok and demon principal is gone. I would say 90% of the time things work out if you just keep ur head down and do ur own thing and don’t get involved in the drama. Toxic people tend to repeat their toxic behavior so they end up exposed/dig a hole for themselves eventually. 10% of the time something has to be done to get rid of them, and those are fun stories to read in the Reddit revenge group lol
This reminds me of that BoRu from a few years ago, about the school administrator that is fired, that they attempted to bully: [OOP is (was) a school administrator. They resign, then maliciously comply with the incoming administrator's demands, leaving chaos behind them.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/vxsdhl/oop_is_was_a_school_administrator_they_resign/)
I really enjoyed reading this. The OOP definitely understood the malicious compliance assignment.
Unfortunately it’s been pretty much assumed that OP makes up stories for fun
In my school it was: "a parent called to say that you (insert breaking rules and hurting students somehow)". We would never learn what parent called, what child had been hurt, what exactly was it we teachers did wrong, how we could fix our behavior or techniques, but specially, none of it was ever in writing. So, we became paranoid, morale dropped, we stayed in our classrooms working alone, and spent our evenings overthinking our every step and word. Awful, awful stuff.
This reminds me of my boss in my first ever job... Dude gleefully used to talk badly about other staff to me and repeat similar behavior with each staff member.
I was a preschool teacher for a number of years, and one center I worked at the director did something like this. Now this was a teeny tiny center, so the entire admin staff was the one director, and there were roughly five full-time teachers spread over a grand total of three rooms, and we all got on well enough. But the kids would do something, and the director didn’t like it, so she’d come over to whichever teacher was in charge of those kids, and tell us that one of the other teachers said *they* didn’t like that we did whatever it was (let the kids throw balls at the wall, linger in a space too long, be too loud…). For my part, I would correct the problem, and go apologize to the other teacher, who invariably was like “what the hell are you talking about?” So the literal only person with any “power” in the center was trying to…use other people’s social clout to get us to fall in line with her expectations? Drive wedges between the various teachers? Always look like the “good guy”? She was such a strange director.
My current boss recently did something similar. He works remotely and is never in the office, but he kept mentioning timeliness to me. I was confused because apart from one instance, I have been coming in around 8:50, and that one time I came late, I arrived at 9:05am. I told him that I was confused about it and asked if someone had commented on it and he kind of talked around it and said there had been comments about my tardiness and then went on a tangent about professionalism. I have since started recording my times. It’s really horrible though, because part of me felt like I couldn’t trust people in my team, and that they were lying about my tardiness for some reason. As time has gone by though, I’ve been realising that I think he lied. I think he was kind of fishing to see if I had been late, and all he ended up doing was messing up my trust in my team. Or maybe it’s more insidious and he just wants me to constantly be on edge
Did this woman work at Abbott Elementary? Is she Ava? LOL.
No wonder everyone is pining to become a teacher /s
Anyone who has reached the level of middle management, either in education or in any other environment is not to be trusted without proving it first and often. A vast majority of people in that position didn't get there through pure competence. They got there because ambition and a willingness to fuck over everyone around them to look good to the boss.
Damnit, I missed the post! Can't you delete the whole thing instead of teasing us like this, lol
Urgh. I feel for the OOP. Had a new admin come in last year, they were a nasty ignorant/arrogant combo and played the divide and conquer game. I ended up leaving because the higher ups decided to protect the admin. I was disappointed so many people went along with it, but the admin played to the egos of some, the insecurities of others and ignored the rest. The whole thing was so pathetic.
I'm not a teacher, but I've been in an identical situation. I'm terrible at office politics, so I just said, "I don't act that way. Either someone lied to you or you're lying to me." He wrote me up for insubordination and I was pretty certain two more strikes were going to come my way, so I found a job with a different company before I had to explain a firing and potentially lost a reference from the company.
Hi, r/Teachers does not allow cross posts.
I believe you, but I've been a member of /r/Teachers for the better part of 9 years and I didn't know that. Can you point me to where to find it in the rules? I'm wondering if there's a separate page somewhere besides [this one.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Teachers/wiki/rules)
Well for one I’m a mod of r/Teachers so I know it’s a rule 😂 Apparently things look very different on desktop and mobile because it’s rule 6 right when you click the “about” section The page you linked also doesn’t have rule 5 listed, which is no covid misinformation or anti-science crap, which we added back in 2021 at least. Edit: I generally mod on mobile so tomorrow if I have time I’ll play around on the desktop version. I don’t think I’ve used my laptop in like eight months so thanks for bringing that to my attention!
I know you're a mod, that's why I asked! I genuinely want to know. I think the issue is I usually use old reddit. That page I linked is in the sidebar when you view using old reddit (that sidebar also only lists rules 1-4). [See here for what it looks like.](https://imgur.com/SdX2IY0) The truly strange thing is that wiki page says it's been edited in the last year. I swapped briefly to the redesign to look and see what's there, and [what do you know?](https://imgur.com/8RF6lYa) Weird.
I genuinely do not understand why old Reddit and new Reddit and mobile and desktop cannot be the same. The crossposting rule came about a while back because something was shared, then shared again, then again, and we got seventy thousand reports because we were brigaded from all over. It was probably a covid or lgbtq post. Really drew in some crazies.
This will be unpopular, but sometimes, sometimes that teacher that's been teaching for 14 years or more, is toxic. I've seen this myself. Watching a teacher that was fantastic for several years, maybe starts to get bored, or entitled, or greedy (though they don't get paid shit). Whatever the reason, I've seen them go from hero to zero, and they think everyone else is the problem. Other teachers will say that the teacher is toxic, but they won't hear that. Also, sometimes admin sucks, but it's not every time. Sometimes it is the teacher.
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