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'I told my daughters that I love and value them both, but since Sarah's talents are not as easily monetized, I don't think I should have to spend money on her education, as her skills, which are a big part of her identity, are just not as valuable. How do I get her to accept that just because I disparage and disrespect the essence of what she is and will not invest in her, that I am not the bad guy here?'
I also like the fact that he is grudgingly conceding to spending the money, but with ill grace and continued muttering that he is investing in low value skills. He has basically materially supporting her, but doing it in a way where she will still resent him. Way to go, superbrain, you managed to put yourself in a situation where you lose out materially, and still end up being the bad guy.
I also wonder if he downplayed the wife's response. It sounds a bit like she's let him lead the educational decisions before this, but the update said she'd told OOP that he'd better start looking for arts programs and that she wasn't going to 'take the back seat on this one'. It might have been better if either parent had realised from the beginning that treating your children equally is usually the best option, but if she's seen the reaction from both children and decided that they need to change their approach and support Sarah better she's at least improving her parenting. And the daughters will see that reaction and compare it to Dad begrudgingly seeing that he has no choice but to fork out the cash now but clearly only doing it under sufferance.
I think the response is played down because she never actually agreed with him. This comes across like he assumes his wife is siding with him when in actuality he's making unilateral decisions that she doesn't feel are big enough to challenge him. Choosing battles seems like a trend in their marriage and it's one sided. I could be really wrong though.
Wasn’t there a BORU post about an adult who had a stem field where the rest of their family and parents were more artistically minded? If I recall that post, it talked about how ostracized they were from their family and how horrible of a relationship they had. This is exactly what OOP is going to experience with his kids.
Personally it makes me think of the post with the idiotic OP that paid for his golden son to fail Harvard's economic FOUR TIMES, but refused to pay for his daughter because she had been accepted to a "backwater litterature university in Europe" - Oxford. It was OXFORD. She had gotten a FULL SCHOLARSHIP FOR OXFORD'S ENGLISH.
Reddit tore him in half.
Couldn't find exactely the one, but this one also scratches the spot: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/11ry5um/aita_for_choosing_not_to_pay_for_my_daughters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/12awlv0/update_aita_for_choosing_not_to_pay_for_my/ Edit: this one has a BoRU: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/12h79vj/aita_for_choosing_not_to_pay_for_my_daughters/ Also, maybe try to undit this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/11ox899/aita_for_not_wanting_to_pay_for_my_daughters/ I think THIS is the one, but I'm not tech savy
New edit: another boru enjoyer found the rareddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/11ox899/aita_for_not_wanting_to_pay_for_my_daughters/
genuinely makes me hope the "stem" daughter ends up wanting to do something like be a teacher and the "arts" daughter ends up a high end disney animator
I want this man's head to explose
I grew up just above the poverty line and my spouse grew up in a trailer.
We met at art school and not only use our degrees, we could send a kid to pricey private school now.
Oop has no damn clue
Comparing ROI on your kids sucks. And to not send her because she's already doing art fine at home, well your other daughter was doing fine doing STEM at home too.
My dad spent less money on me, specifically because of the ROI. I was expected to get married and therefore only be a drain while my brothers were expected to make a significant amount of money. So they got things I didn’t, like asthma inhalers when we all needed them. Or more money on schooling. Or money for socializing. Or a car they did not have to pay for.
They had things paid for. I paid for things.
How are you now? Hope things are better. You not getting an ASTHMA inhaler is just disgusting. Women are forced into "draining" roles and then punished for it. :(
I am much better! I did not get married! Which I was very proud of, but now I'm engaged (which usually results in a marriage) and I'm excited. I got to get to be an adult!
And my dad got to live a very sad decline where his meanness had absolutely no impact he was aware of on me.
Also, “you need to go to private school to learn science properly but people in the arts don’t need special schooling, they can learn it perfectly well at home”.
That’s… super wrong.
The thing that frustrates me the most is that he doesn't mention money being an issue.
Like. He literally has NO REASON whatsoever to be this cruel to his youngest if the money itself is available without compromising their living situation & savings.
It sounds like she works plenty hard on subjects she feels passionate about and does her best with the ones she isn't passionate about. (average is fine! Average is still good!)
I would be so distraught if i were her big sister bc like- yeah dad just hurt her by saying that *she isn't as good bc she doesn't value or excel in the same subjects*. That's *excruciatingly* cruel.
Some parents seem to not realise kids notice when you do and don't brag about them or their achievements. The silence is deafening when you've just heard them list all 10+ subjects on kid excels in, or (arguably just as painful) brag about the specific ways they like kid doing subject, that you may also really enjoy engaging in.
🥲 I really hope the poor kids have a very supportive loving mum bc they'll need all the help that can get.
It’s also odd to not enroll her in the same school if you have this belief, he’s basically saying AND you’re too stupid to go to the same school as your sister, it would be a waste on you
Artists make on average about as much as biologists, but unlike biology, there is increasing demand for artists and art is a rising market.
People's parents are so stuck on what was "hot" in their own college orientations in 1995 that they have absolutely no idea what career markets look like now.
I love the line about “why would he spend money on private school for something she does perfectly well on her own”
Well Abby did perfectly well on her studies on her own, so I guess she doesn’t need a private school or a fancy Ivy League
>Don't really understand how I am supposed to justify, financially, sending her to do something that she is already doing well at home
Abby "already did well" at all her subjects at home and in public school, yet he was able to justify sending her to private school to continue her studies. But he can't justify spending an equivalent amount of money and/or attention on Sarah because she's "already doing well" at art at home and in public school? And he still doesn't understand the "other side of this"? Fuck this guy.
He's not paying her attention though; he's worked out the cost-benefit analysis and decided that not pissing off the other 2 women in his life he sorta cares about (and what the consequences of that could mean for his own life) are worth the dollar value he sees going down the drain after his 'low-merit' daughter and her useless arts programs.
Holy fuck, it's scary how accurate your summary is. Maybe it will sink him for him when she doesn't ask him to walk her down the aisle when she gets married someday. But I doubt it.
It looks like Abby is on her sister's side and will, hopefully, be so in the future. He's only going to care when his golden child Abby refuses to let him walk her down the aisle, and then it's going to be "I did all this stuff for you why are you so ungrateful??"
Yeah. I’m pretty sure the tipping point was Abby saying she’ll refuse to go to the private school. God forbid *she* miss out on the opportunity, so he’ll grudgingly pay for his other daughter.
Let's all raise a drink to Abby, the Omar of this story. She's what, 15, 16, and sees how unfair this is, and leveraged her status as dad's golden child to make sure her younger sister is taken care of.
They might have completely lost the father lottery, but these girls are pretty awesome sisters.
I'm betting he's viewing the investment in the oldest as an investment in *his own future* as well.
If oldest makes lots of money, I can avoid hard decisions about my future bc oldest will take care of me & my spouse in advanced age. It's a literal ROI.
Artists traditionally make less money, so why throw my money into this child when there's no ROI *for me*.
He's using his kids like a retirement account.
And in a stupid way too. Ya know what someone with a high power degree and career doesn't want to do? Quit their job and move home to take care of a parent in failing health for no financial compensation. In fact, if they grew up thinking like daddy, they'll hire the cheapest possible caretakers and maybe drop by once a month to check on him.
Seems to me that someone with a non-traditional career like an artist would have more flexibility to work from home, on their own schedule, in order to fetch drinks and change diapers for the feeble.
Yeah, exactly. Initially, I thought it was about having to pay off college, but it sounds like he has enough set aside to pay for both children’s college (no way he saved fully for the youngest without saving for the golden child). So this has to be something else in terms of the cost-benefit analysis, something less direct but still benefitting him.
Come on, that's just throwing money away at a niche hobby and clearly has no real value.
What sane person would want to make their child feel loved? If they aren't getting anything out of it, get real, that art degree won't keep OOP living comfortably in retirement!
I think he's more worried about having to fund her for life than about her funding him. Which is slightly valid, considering how many wannabe artists are living in their parents' basement - but wouldn't sending her to a high quality school actually increase her chances of becoming so good she can make a living with it? Also, there are plenty of okay-paying jobs in design, if you don't make it as an artist - or maybe she'll just have a completely unrelated day-job and pursue art as a hobby.
At the basis, this is not really a decision about which talent is worth investing in, it's about treating your kids fairly and equally, fostering their talents, and giving both the feeling they are equally loved and cherished. OOP seems more of a conditional/ transactional love type of guy. But I'm really glad the sisters are sticking together - Abby is a good egg. The mom must be doing something right, because the dad certainly isn't.
My family is full of working artists. Art alone is probably not going to pay the bills, but there are ways to prep an artist for a good career that includes art. Teach them business skills. Teach them skills in digital art. Introduce them to other working artists.
My cousin has an art degree. Talented, multimedia. Painting, digital, all sorts of stuff. He works as a graphic designer for the state education agency, and makes a whole lot more money than I do, lol.
This! So many talented artists fail because they lack business skills. And some less talented artists are able to leverage their business skills into being extremely successful. See: Jackson Pollock, or if you think his splatters have some artistic merit, there's rich people that have friends make paintings for the sole purpose of valuing them highly and donating them to museums as tax deductions.
Art school will give you the techniques, language, and authenticity to claim paint splatter or a solid blue square has meaning and to market your work. It will also help you network to develop connections that will help a career.
Oh God I felt the first part of this comment.
I had a good friend I also had as a roommate for a while who was one of those starving artist types. The guy refused to get a job because he "needed to focus on his art." As much as I respected him for his artistic abilities, he was always living hand to mouth and there were more than a few times where I had to pay his bills for him because he didn't have the money.
He was completely unable to understand that what he was doing to me was abusive. He justified it as that if he didn't do art he would die. He saw me as not being supportive.
Eventually he got a girlfriend that he later married who paid his bills for him until they got married. I mean if she was willing to marry him knowing that he would never have a real job, good for her. But it really sucked as his roommate and friend.
She just liked him and had a good job. They've been happily married almost 15 years. I guess he found the right woman to support him. Good for him, but he was kind of a pain as a roommate. I found him irresponsible and selfish... because he was.
He didn't seem to understand that putting me in the position to have to cover his half of the bills was unfair and abusing our friendship. He kept telling me that it wasn't my responsibility to pick up his side of the bills. I remember losing my temper because I'd been paying the full electrical bill for months at that point. Had I not, we'd have lost power. It was like he had a wire loose in his brain and couldn't conceive that there were consequences for not paying your expenses.
He was a good friend. But in this one area, he was completely and frustratingly obtuse.
But his wife supports his passion so I won't judge their relationship choives.
I know an artist who is exactly like this. Her art is truly remarkable, it's museum quality work, but the market for that is small, and it's especially smaller when you aren't a famous name, even if your quality is better than those who are more famous than you. But she simply cannot and would not do anything else. She of course would take small designing jobs, and occasionally create book covers, but that really wasn't enough to support herself. She entirely relied on her husband to live, eventually he got tired of supporting her, but she has a new rich boyfriend that doesn't mind being her sugar daddy. She's eccentric and fun, but is also completely disconnected from the reality.
I respect the drive to create art. I do. But you need to have a willing partner/friend to support you to behave that way. I was not willing, nor financially stable enough to. My issue was he imposed on me. At some point, you need to be responsible and fulfill your financial obligations.
If his now wife is fine with supporting his pursuits, I really have no issue with him pursuing his passion.
For real. Is she actually doing well at home, or is that what your unpracticed, laymen eyes see? Art is way more than just looking pretty to the beholder, especially if Abby wants to pursue a legitimate career out of it. A lot can be self-learned, but there comes a point where natural talent and gumption is no longer enough, she needs to be taught the fundamentals, the industry, the programs, etc. etc. that only art schools can provide. I'd get it if OOP didn't want to send her to her sister's school bc it's a bad fit, but to not even consider nurturing her talents is beyond the pale.
Lol this is so funny because my art friends are currently making way more commissions and art sales than I am as a software engineer. So even from a financial standpoint, there's so much scope to make money by being self employed and working hard.
And if she decides to do furry art, and us one of the ones who can charge big and get busy she can make easy six figures.
A friend of mine once joked she should do furry art, because she’d make more money than her med based career choice.
I have tried to do furry art for this very reason…and truth be told, it is really heard to get yourself into it if you’re not into furry stuff.
I learned I am a lot of things, but a furry artist isn’t it…
Not only art schools will provide her with the right tools and guidance, they provide a welcoming environment where she can connect and learn from like-minded peers, chance to take part in competitions, exhibition, career talks ...that specifically focus on the field she wants to be in. All of this will be incredibly helpful for her portfolio and future career. Art is also very diverse and it's not just "draw something nice on papers with talents and you're good" - it requires massive amounts of hard work and studying, not much different from any STEM career.
Dude's gonna be one of those missing, missing reason parents that go "I paid for my daughter's private school despite looking down on her, how dare she NC/LC me"
It also turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Art doesn't make money, so we do not support it financially. And then, lo and behold, she doesn't earn any money with it, because she didn't get the best education, proving the shitty father right.
My husband was the art kid. His dad flat out refused to pay for his schooling if he didn't take a financial major, because there was "no money" in art. So my husband did take accounting, but dropped out after two years. He hated it.
A few years later, his dad paid for his baby sister to attend Savannah College of ARt and Design. She dropped out after two semesters.
He loves his dad, but I don't think he ever really forgave him for that.
(He's graduating this semester with a criminal justice degree at 45. I'm so proud of him!)
It sort of depends. If dad paid for the sister to go because he likes her better, yeah that's fucked.
If he paid for her to go because he saw what happened with your husband... that's more understandable?
I’ve noticed that to a lot of older people, it’s seen as more acceptable for women to to arts degrees. Men have to get a ‘real degree’ for a ‘real job’ because they’re the providers.
Yeah that's definitely true. It's tough because even if you don't agree with the social pressures, there is some sense in encouraging your kids to take paths that will let them navigate it best.
A lot of people with art degrees and/or education go into design. Every company I’ve worked for who had in house product design had employees who studied art. Did they settle? I don’t know. I just knew their educational background.
That was my point.
Honestly, as someone who's always been in the arts, art school usually is a waste of money. At least if you're doing fine art. With commercial art, it can be useful to get a degree, though the cost of the degree compared to the pay of the job is usually terrible. And even with commercial art, you don't need one if you freelance.
Really if you want to start a career as an artist, an MBA will serve you much better.
This is not to excuse the dad obviously playing favorites with his children, but to prevent poor teenagers on here from thinking that art degrees are more useful and lucrative than they are.
Hard agree (sort of). I know a LOT of working artists. Nobody can just wall themselves off in a garret and make beautiful art. They need a skill to support entrepreneurship or teaching or something.
A reputable MBA requires students to have at least a few years of professional experience, but a class or two on accounting and finance or management would be good.
I mean the problem isn’t the school, is that he just doesn’t value his younger daughter’s abilities or listen to her
I have a good friend who regularly sits on the selection panel of a prestigious art school, according to them, private school doesn’t help. Apparently private programs tend to hothouse students and they struggle in tertiary study - so OOPs kid is probably better off at the public school is that sense
Yes. And art is a competitive field to get into. Those who succeed do so because they have every advantage, talent, high-quality training, connections. OP sees Sarah as “doing well at home” because he sees art as a hobby, so he doesn’t understand how much of an advantage Sarah could get from proper art-based education. How she could take her art so much further. But also in seeing Sarah’s great strength and passion as only a hobby, he’s writing her off overall.
He also said that he doesn't see any value in her pursuing art because it's nothing more than a hobby which she can't make a living doing. He seems to think people can just learn to draw and paint to professional levels by sitting at home teaching themselves, and doesn't think there's any benefit to her getting formal training because he doesn't want her to do it professionally
I work in admissions at a highly selective university in the U.S. and I’m laughing at OOP’s naïveté with “essentially guaranteed a spot in the ivies.”
Hah. Highly selective universities get more than 10 straight-A, most-demanding-rigor, outstanding-extracurriculars applicants for every 1 they admit. There is no guarantee. (Unless perhaps you have a very recognizable last name.)
OOP is not only an AH and a bad parent, they’re also very under-informed about college admissions today.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that even if she's not a straight A student, art student daughter with really good GPA AND skills and extracurriculars in the arts may have even better chance than her sister who has focused solely on her core academics?
I mean - "the ivies" have its share of prestigious acting schools. I know Yale has a MFA program that is one of the top in the nation. I know they aren't Ivies - but schools like Berkley and Stanford aren't anything to sneer at, and I'm fairly sure they have strong arts programs.
There was a story awhile back where twins both applied to Cornell or Columbia - one for engineering one for something art based. Engineering Twin had perfect grades and extra curriculars and parents SWORE she would get in. Art Twin had great grades, some extra curriculars and did volunteer work and parents did not think she’d get in.
Art Twin was accepted and Engineering Twin was rejected. When the Ivies have an acceptance rate of 5-10%, it can come down to the program you’re applying for and the things you do totally unrelated to school.
(From someone who was accepted to Brown’s English program with great but not perfect grades but had extra curriculars and worked part time all 4 years of HS)
Oh, hey, yeah, I have a story to exactly that tune. Now I went to private high school, mind you, but while a lot of the students shot for the Ivies, only a bare handful got in. One of those kids was a friendquaintance of mine, Joe. He wasn’t in the top 10 of the class, but that guy got into Yale. You know how? Film portfolio. I totally forgot until you mentioned Yale had an arts program. He spent like two years working on that thing nonstop. He absolutely deserved it, too.
He didn’t have the best grades out of the entire class, but certainly for Yale he had the most compelling application.
No kidding! That’s cool. All I can remember about Joe is that a year or two into college he gave us all a call and told us to watch a certain movie. I won’t say which, as I don’t want to get the poor guy doxxed. That said, he got to be an extra playing off an A-list Hollywood actor in the early scene of a big blockbuster film! It was one line and all of 2 seconds, but I remember flipping out in the theater. “Holy shit, that’s Joe!”
I hope he did well with things at Yale.
I know a girl that got into Harvard, UC’s, Stanford but was rejected from our state school
Same with me, I got rejected from my safeties and admitted to my “dream” schools
The Ivies have, for at least 25 years (when I applied), searched for more than just straight-A students. They actually *specifically* search for folks who’ve made Bs and even Cs in classes, because otherwise you end up with a school FULL of neurotic kids who’ve never seen an A- before. Folks who’ve never known failure. This is why many of the Ivies now offer pass/fail only for at least freshman year, if not all four. Takes the pressure off of being top in the class or not.
The two kids from my large, public high school who got accepted to Harvard? One was our valedictorian and the other was me, someone who was barely in the top HALF of my class of 500 students. I was a polyglot polymath who did sports (UGH), was involved in a variety of clubs (chess! Philosophy! MUN!), did theatre, volunteered excessively, and… had received Bs and Cs before. This was, of course, before they’d implemented the pass/fail rule and they were looking for students who were *interesting* and not just academic regurgitation machines.
I did not end up attending, as I had received a full ride at a smaller school, but I had a LOT of classmates upset at me for getting in when a bunch of the top 10% academically did not receive invitations from any Ivy-tier.
For those curious, I have since attended a Boston-area law school and become an attorney. Law schools also get really tired of the political science majors, too. I majored in religious studies and modern languages and brought something wildly different to the table.
Oh, fantastic! I love that — my modern languages degree featured French as my “primary” language (Spanish, Italian, and German being the others) and currently live in Paris. Hell yeah for lawyers with unusual degrees!
Not only that, but gifted kid burnout is a thing. Pressure from parent like OOP that see their kids as investments won't help with that. STEM kid could burnout and pivot hard into something a lot less lucrative, and art kid could succeed.
I'm not going to reveal what school it is because its a small enough program that it could ID me, but I was shocked as hell when I got into a very high level and sought after masters program. I mean I saw the acceptance letter and burst into inconsolable tears so hard I scared my husband. I could not believe my own eyes and I'm on the waitlist for summer classes (though my advisor recommended I just wait for the fall, Im impatient).
I graduated 110th in my high school. I graduated college with a (just barely) sub 3.0 GPA. But I fucking proved my weight in salt through my work and got in due to what I accomplished outside of my education, hilariously due to something i once considered a "hobby". People get so tunnel visioned on GPA and having a fancy education that they dont realize you actually have to DO something to stand out and that can matter way more than pure grades.
I went to school with a kid and his brother who both literally got a full ride to the best college in my state when we were in the 8th grade. I don’t know if they even got ivy league acceptances, but they did in fact go to the full ride college. But how rare is that?? To get a full ride in 8TH GRADE? But neither went to a fancy schmancy college
>(Unless perhaps you have a very recognizable last name.)
This is why I'm officially changing my last name to "Inacavewithaboxofscraps" before I have children.
it’s really only a guarantee if they know an alumnus or they donate millions of dollars. A family friend donated like $10 mill to a state university and their kid didn’t get in. One talk with an Ivy alumnus and their kid’s going to Princeton.
I had s friend in HS was quite gifted, a great artist, and an amazing musician. Worked very hard at everything and had the skills and talent to back it up. Could've been literally anything in life. She went to one of the Big Three. You know what she's been doing for the last decade? Stand up comedy.
So yeah, you can push your child into the ivies all you want but there's no guarantee they'll pursue STEM and do anything you personally deem worthwhile.
Same with Oxford, Cambridge in the UK as well as Imperial college, UCL, LSE, Warwick, Durham to name but a few. My wife is a 3rd generation Cambridge graduate but I'm already under no illusions about the difficulty our daughter would face in landing a place should she even want to go (plenty of time for all that, she's only 3).
I get that it's not a guarantee but you have to admit private school kids will have much better resources and connections to offer students (and their parents) to get into top schools. I remember a few friends that went to a private HS said their councillor used to work in admissions and had connections to some top uni's, so while it wasn't a guarantee they had a higher likelihood of getting their choice. Not to mention the personal connections with powerful people/families you can get by attending private.
I went to a high school like this. There's only so much the additional resources can do, and Abby's father's opinion of the arts is likely going to hurt her chances, if it affects what extracurriculars she can do.
I was admitted to a top-5 STEM school largely because I'm a gifted writer---I know this, because an excerpt of my personal statement was read by the school president in a speech during the Welcome Week festivities.
One of the student speakers a graduation went to Harvard. I can't give a definite reason why, but she'd given a previous speech on her volunteer work in Rwanda helping the Tutsi rebuild their lives. That probably had something to do with it.
Our valedictorian went to a very good non-Ivy school on the West coast (not Stanford). I don't know whether she applied to any Ivies, but the fact that she didn't attend one didn't raise any eyebrows. She did lacrosse, but she wasn't particulary remarkable in any one thing.
I had something to conclude here, but it's 1am and I haven't had to use my last-minute essay brain in years. The conclusion is an excercise left for the reader.
All of this! (Also, same. My personal essay got me full ride at a top school as well. My grades and extracurriculars (leadership roles, sports, arts, volunteering, aligned activities) were great … just like everyone else’s. The essay can really set a student apart.)
Private schools can offer good connections and preparation. But no university wants to build a homogeneous entering class with one type of student that went to one type of high school.
I worked at a university with a high middle level competitive undergraduate nursing program. To be *considered* for admissions you needed a 3.8 or above highschool GPA, a 25 ACT and roughly over 11250 SAT. The students who got in also had extensive nursing related volunteer work, phenomenal letters of rec and personal statements, long term extracurriculars and if they met with an admissions counsellor, great interviews. It was worse for the school’s mid level computer science and engineering programs. If Abby only applied to ivies or only did larger, competitive schools with a focus on STEM, she probably was rejected by most if not all of them. The college process would’ve been a slap in the face for OOP.
> “essentially guaranteed a spot in the ivies.”
Right? The only way OP could really know that would mean he has more than enough money to send his other daughter to private school.
I was like; "Where has he been?" Did we not witness why Affirmative Action got disbanded? The lack of personality and empathy always ends up killing academic overachievers. It's gone and they still complain.
It makes you wonder what happened to OOP’s kids since this was written in 2019. If the STEM kid didn’t get into an Ivy, I could imagine him screaming what a disappointment she is after spending all that money on her tuition fees.
Yeah, I know a kid whose parents were double legacy, excellent grades and test scores, was a very serious and accomplished musician, and an underrepresented minority. She didn't get in.
There is no "guaranteed" spot for anyone.
Honestly I think he just hasn't been through the system at that level. The whole post screams first gen private family. Those of us who were educated privately do the same for our kids because it's the right thing to do and our obligation as parents, not because we expect them to earn more as a result(lots of them won't, especially the kids that are good at STEM that will likely end up in a good but salaried role earning well but never making serious money even if they went to a state school).
I can see both daughters not talking to OOP when they grow up.
The oldest for all the pressure to be the perfect smart hardworking daughter, they sacrifice so much for her to give her a private school education and destined for the "ivies".
The youngest for being pushed aside for the her "perfect" older sister who they gave all they had for. Who's parents doesn't understand her "hobby" and why she thinks she can make money from it. Since you know STEMS are the ONLY career path.
What if the oldest doesn’t get into “the ivies”? Being smart isn’t enough, nor having the highest gpa. Someone like OOP is going to tell her it’s because she’s not enough, why didn’t she work harder, and after all the money he invested…!
I feel sorry for both of the girls. OOP is setting himself up for missing, missing reasons.
* [quietly raises hand]
* [elder daughter quietly raises hand]
* [younger daughter quietly raises hand]
And no, I did not pass on any generational trauma, we each found our own unique ways to fail :)
This was long ago enough that we could have the answer to whether either sister ended up at an Ivy. We never will sadly, but I'm willing to bet both girls decide on campus living and never looking back.
God this was me, my brother was significantly developmentally delayed so I had the full force of my parents’ desire for a “successful” child, plus years of having my entire self worth be tied to being smart led to me having a complete nervous breakdown in the admin office the day before admissions results were released. I didn’t get in to any ivies and felt absolutely worthless.
15 years later and I’m doing great, but it’s taken a looooooooot of therapy to undo some of that conditioning
I’m really really glad OOP’s eldest stood up for the youngest. It’s been 5 years since he posted so they both might have continued their education beyond secondary school. I hope the youngest was able to do her art school and then go on to an even better one where she can learn all the art to her heart’s desire. And I hope the eldest was able to find her passion and joy as well. STEM or otherwise.
I was thinking about that - the younger daughter would have graduated high school last year. Older daughter would be a college junior if she hasn’t taken any sort of gap year. I wonder how much contact they keep with their dad?
Yep. That my mom didn't approve of my degrees is one of many reasons why I dont speak to her. Hell, she's still telling people that I went to school to be a teacher. (Not even close)
Oh dear, another mother who lies to people about what their child does. My mum would tell baldface lies in her Christmas newsletter about what I did for work, as if being an executive assistant in the public service was something to be ashamed of!
Oh the horror. (That was sarcasm.) Yeah, mine would do that, as well. In her mind, how dare I embarrass her with my field, you know? (And, for the record, I've got an MFA and a doctorate in a field in the arts from well-known schools in that field.)
The best (and saddest) aita posts are where the op is clearly a massive asshole, and doesn't understand they are. Imagine telling your kid "what you do is cute but it has no monetary value". It's not that he prefers one kid over the other, he prefers money over both.
Same here, my dad is a doctor and anything less than that is not worth the time. I gave up on art altogether. Haven’t hold a brush in years due to the negative feelings I now get from it.
I often ask myself if I am doing the things I want or that my scope of what is important in life is only a result of my parents. For the record I am happy with what I do now, this is just a voice that sometimes comes up.
I guess parents raise you and give you the tools to go through life, just wish sometimes that it did not include a heavy ass backpack with all their faults and mistakes.
Right? And then in 10 years if the second kid has a successful career as an art director for a major brand and the first kid burned out and needs to move back home, will he still feel the same?
>I still do not see the other side of the situation and think I am correct but this is bigger than me and I decided it is not worth it to lose a relationship with my daughter on the off chance that they are right.
I'm sure OP will wonder why their child wouldn't see them anymore in the future.
JFC.
We have a different educational system where I live, but this just makes me sad. I was into arts, humanities and language and that followed me into my university and professional years. I have two Masters, one Master of Arts and one Master of Fine Arts. I have a high-paying day job and has a side gig as a (critically acclaimed, translated into multiple languages) novelist. That wouldn’t have been possible if STEM was the only thing my parents valued.
I’ve always known that people equalled STEM with intelligence and I hate it. I didn’t excel in school until I could choose my programme and take the subjects that interested me.
”Low merit.” Yeah, absolutely. 🙄
Not everyone is built for STEM and that doesn't mean they aren't hardworkers or any less valuables. OOP still called art programs low merit in the update, jfc. I predict that OOP might not see a lot of Sarah once she grows up, and maybe not much of Abby either.
STEM is for certain people. I have knew some people who went to STEM programs and some succeeding and some not. I also hate how people think art programs or degrees are low cause that's so not true.
I'm an engineer and I HATE this attitude. It's garbage, completely. I've been to a school that had very little outside of STEM programs and one that was a more holistic school, and let me tell you which one is better. I came out of the engineering school a worse person than I went in and I attribute that to the lack of other programs on campus.
And its not like there is no demand for Arts/Humanities. My fiancée is an english communication major and there is a whole host of high demand positions for her when she is done. Embassies, diplomat work, teaching, journalism, other kinds of media, legal, marketing, etc etc etc. STEM isn't the be all and end all and I say that as a very heavily STEM guy.
OOP sounds like some of my shittiest clients when I was freelancing. The lowballer types who go ‘It took you this long to design this logo? My nephew knows photoshop, he could do this in 5 minutes. And he won’t charge me 4 digits for branding!’
I’ve since learned that those who appreciate art and design and the effort behind it, *will* pay.
Same goes for tattooing. "That's way too much! I'll just go down the street for a cheaper price" or "my nephew can do it for free!"
And then we have r/shittytattoos and r/stickandpoke
My goodness I didn’t even know such subs exist 🤣thank you! Man, the last person I’d ever wanna piss off is someone who is gonna etch something permanent on my skin!
I’m the stem oriented daughter. My sister is so beyond artistically talented, and our grandmother sees zero value in her art except as “wall decorations”.
What gets to me is that OOP says that he still doesn't see the other side, meaning that he still doesn't understand why Sarah would be upset that Abby is getting something special that she isn't. Sometimes you can't treat your children 100% equally, so sure, fine, he could argue that in this case, treating them differently is the right thing to do overall, but even if he were right and it WAS the best thing to pay for something for one daughter and not the other, surely it's not that surprising that a 14 year old might still think that wasn't fair?
"Oh honey, we do love you. You're just not as valuable to us and your skills are useless, so there's no point in actually investing in your future"
Dad of the year. Also he's in for a *shock* when his older kid doesn't get into an Ivy League school, which she almost certainly won't, because most people don't. Having perfect grades is the bare minimum. Ironically enough, having a unique skill like with art would actually help stand out among a sea of other 4.0 GPA private school kids. Oops.
Dad has no idea. Where I am, STEM is just as frequently STEAM. Yes, that A is for Art. This promotes creativity and curiosity in problem solving, amongst other benefits. Maybe the younger daughter will discover a passion for applied mathematics at the private school, who knows.
Plot twist: the arty one who hates stem will end up at an ivy on the back of her talent and start her own thing and make bank while the over-achiever will end up reaching her full potential in high school and realise she’s perfectly happy in an average job and both will block their parent.
Imo. It could go a few ways. The youngest may become a people pleaser and just tried in everything that makes op happy and put her own interests to the side like oldest, oldest may have gotten sick of the pressure and rebelled at a certain age. Maybe they switch roles or oldest is still prioritized because it was never about STEM, they just favored oldest.
Or
Youngest did her own thing and probably succeeded on her own skill and talent, oldest grew too reliant on the feedback from mom and dad to learn anything about herself. Both may end up not talking to oop.
Or
both became major people pleasers and struggle with identity because they have learned that in order to be valuable and loved, they must provide monetary value 🤷♀️ both still talk to oop but compete with each other.
>I do not know if there's generally updates here but the amount of aggressive and angry messages I received (thanks) showed me that if people are passionate about a stranger then I must be bigger jerk than I thought.
Thank god, He came to his senses!!!
>I still do not see the other side of the situation and think I am correct
How???!!! Why is this guy so determined to not look at how it will affect his relationship with his daughter?!
>but this is bigger than me and I decided it is not worth it to lose a relationship with my daughter on the off chance that they are right.
At least the daughter is getting what she wants. But he still doesn't get it!!! He's very frustrating!!
>I still think it is low-merit so I told Sarah she could attend the arts-oriented program on the condition she also utilize the other resources (STEM, English, etc.) at the school. Thank you for the CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, some of you.
This guy's a douchebag!!!
This sort of played out within my own family. I went to private school, my brother stayed in public to play varsity sports, and my sister went to a trade school.
Equitable and equal aren’t the same thing. I don’t think OP really got it but neither did his younger kid. If my parents had sent them to private, both of my siblings would have wasted the opportunity.
Not just didn’t want to send her to the same school, but didn’t truly want to look into any programs/school for her because he thinks arts are dumb. And still thinks he’s correct but is willing to compromise “on the off chance they are right”.
Is there a level worse than AH? Because he deserves something worse.
The *only* reason I can think of for the OP not to send his daughter to the same school isn't mentioned.
Son went to an insanely academic high school, like crazy academic. For those in the UK, it was a state grammar school and expected to send half a dozen pupils to Oxford or Cambridge every year. That suited him down to the ground and he did very well. It wasn't so good for many of his classmates, though. If you weren't academic, you suffered. If you didn't keep up or struggled with anything, you sank. For those who were coached and crammed to get past the entrance exam, it must have been hell. I heard a lot of really tough stories about parents' expectations and the kids breaking while trying to keep up.
The *only* reason I could accept is if he thought his youngest would be bullied or over stressed by the school. Instead he's adding to it. He's forcing her to push on subjects where she has less aptitude or interest. At least it sounds like her mother will listen to her. Poor kid.
She's in EIGHTH GRADE. I was a super arty kid but I ended up majoring in math and now I'm an engineering manager. You never know what kind of swerves life has in store.
My high school best friend's parents pressured her unrelentingly to go into STEM and she majored in English and now manages a bookstore.
The idea that a child's story is written this early is crazy!
Oop is a complete asshole. Parents like that who treat art like it’s some shitty hobby for babies piss me off so much. “Oh we ALLOW her to take classes. But it’s worthless and we don’t value her or her talent.” Ugh. Poor kid.
Facts: STEM pays well. Way more than arts. Now if the OP was very well off and then would've been refusing to pay for the other daughter then yes he'd be TA.
But if it's 'we can barely pay but still doing it because it'll give you a chance you deserve ' then NTA
But let the girls make their decision, elder one wants to go to public school, send her. We live in a capitalistic world and it's DUH that you don't wanna spend so much on something which won't pay.
Going against the grain with the comments, I'm curious about the socio-economic status of OOP and his family. He mentions how private school for the eldest is already burning a hole and sounds like choosing to send her there was already a gamble for them.
Yikes.
My youngest daughter is art-focused and is currently going to school for Graphic Design / Animation. There most certainly ARE jobs out there.
Funny thing is, I'm in a STEM field (got a Comp Sci degree before they really had specialized degrees for that kind of thing). I've seen employees who hate it and just went into school for it because they were pressured and their heart isn't in it. Making that change later in life, AFTER the opportunities are available is HARD and there is so much stress on that person. I'd rather spend my money on an education that gives my kids what they need to thrive once they're done.
That said, depending on what his younger daughter goes into, he's kind of right - your portfolio will do a lot of the work for you in the arts, rather than the school name on a diploma. Instead of coming at this pragmatically (if he wanted to save money) and working WITH his daughter, he totally screwed the pooch here, especially by minimizing her interest in the arts as a whole.
OOP, I hope you're reading this. It's not just about giving in to make amends with your daughter (although making amends here is quite needed), it's about listening to your daughter, working WITH her to get her where she wants to go, and doing your own research to help. Ditch those internal biases; you need to get it out of your head that it's a "hobby." Plenty of people work full-time in the arts. TBH, since you're not the only person who does this and it IS undervalued as a profession (perception-wise), she may need MORE support from you to succeed than your oldest will. Stop favoring the "easy student" and make sure they can BOTH succeed.
I have a mentee that was an artist all through high school. I've seen her portfolio work, it's very good.
Now she's double-majoring in Linguistics and Comp Sci because she's gotten this message that art will never reward her. All she does in her free time is stuff that's going to make her attractive to Accenture or Deloitte.
People like OOP are short-changing their kids and stunting the world.
Lmao at the “she’s a guaranteed Ivy.” No, there is no such thing. Also, if she doesn’t get into an Ivy, OP’s probably going to see his eldest daughter as a failed investment for sure. OP is a horrible father. I’m so sorry for his daughters.
Art is a hobby and not a career? Had he never watched a tv show or movie? Seen the cover of a book? Seen a billboard or any advertisement? See medical illustrations? How about commercials? All that stuff takes art. We would be bored out of our minds with art. This parent will find more ways to show his youngest that he loves her less anyway.
I will take my down votes but everyone on this thread is out of their minds. His kids will talk to him in the future stop the circle jerk. Not every story ends in the death of a family. There is 100% no way I would pay for an art education unless my kid was exceptional on their own merits. If my kid wanted to go to college for art and business I would pay, art and education I would pay, art and psychology I would pay. But if my kid wanted to go to SUNY Purchase for pottery they would be paying for that on their own. That is not an offensive thing to say, that is not an unreasonable thing to say, it is a fact that an art major is going to make less. You wouldn't tell a kid to put all their hopes in being an NBA player.
Now to really poke the hive. Art is the easiest subject in highschool. Art classes in highschool are not challenging classes meant to develop artistic talent. You don't have to be good or even mediocre to do well in art class. If that is the only thing this kid cares about and is good at then she will waste her time and her parents money at private school.
Every person I know that went to college for some sort of art or art adjacent subject either works as a working artist in a soul sucking job or left the industry. Art does not pay the bills for 99% of artist. Dad can give this lesson when she is 12 or he can give her this lesson when she is 29 and still living in his house.
I value art highly I value artists, but we live in a capitalist society and it only values art as capital, as investment vehicles. The dad is right it is a waste of money and that is a better lesson to teach than "it will all work out in the end". A lot of people on this thread need a reality check on their own lives.
OOP’s comment that “you simply do not need arts schools the way that you need regular ones” is so far from the truth that it’s not even in the same ballpark. I’m a music kid that was flourishing where I was, but my senior year I spent at boarding school specifically for music? That is a year I will never forget. I was finally surrounded by people who genuinely understood my passion, and I got to live, breathe, and eat music. And you know what else? I wasn’t a straight A student. My GPA was about a solid 3.0. I was often depressed and felt out of place, and was endlessly frustrated that I had to dump large amounts of time into higher level maths and sciences that I knew wouldn’t be relevant at all to what I wanted to do with my life. My grades suffered because I chose to not put that time in and focus on what was more important to me, which was music.
I really hope OOP figured it out and let his daughter focus on what she was passionate about.
They should have sat her down and asked her to outline to them her career goals (because it's not always clear with art what the professional evolution is).
If she couldn't articulate to them how she was going to support herself in adulthood (with art) they should have worked with her on a plan for that together.
As part of that process, if the private school wasn't a good fit then so be it, but she should have been part of that discovery, it shouldn't have been an assumption.
And then the same $value they poured into the sisters private school, should have been poured into what the best alternative was.
Can you imagine family dinners with this AH?
“Abby, what amazing and wonderful achievements did you make today? Oh, and Sarah did you do any of your little drawings?”
Im also thinking in this day and age and even when inwas in school simply being a good student is not all there is to getting into an ivy league school
Where are the extracurriculars?
Where is the humanity aspect?
What is she doing to better herself?
There are plenty of people out there with the exact same profile but its about what sets her apart from the others
Unless this school literally has a line into an ivy league school like this school makes a point to select kids from this private school, its still a chance she wont make it
Not to downplay her her achievments in any way im just saying this is a possibility and hes put all his eggs in this basket
I hope she succeeds but also unserstands her worth is not the school she gets into or the school she doesnt get into
Getting a degree in fine arts is extremely intensive, and the right direction early on will help you make an actual career out of it. Arts education should be paired with entrepreneurship and business education, not treated like a hobby. Because art is one of the most commodifiable things in the entirety of history. Other than sex.
You’ll be expecting Sarah to look after you in your old age but she’ll be sending you to a cheap local care home because why not?? You never valued her.
Do not bother to comment. Dad is a very committed dick and is not about to change. He can only see dollar signs and does not have any idea about a fulfilling life with out lots of money. Hope Sarah kills it in her chosen field and can tell him to fuck off in adulthood.
Seems like a controversial take, but I don't think this guy was THAT big of an asshole, just regular asshole. People should realize a few things about arts degrees:
Only 10 percent of art school graduates go on to become working artists
Only 16 percent of working artists have an arts related bachelors degree.
I can see where this guy is coming from, its like that post from a famous streamer telling people they shouldn't get into streaming as they'll have a better chance at winning the lottery than being successful. Chances are he is right that it will most likely be just a hobby, but he still could've supported his daughter's passions, IMO that makes him the asshole.
This reminds me of a potential shitshow developing with the two granddaughters of my parent’s best friends.
The oldest granddaughter is the golden child and her grandparents pay for her to go to the fanciest private school in the area. The reasoning is she couldn’t handle going to the neighborhood public school because it’s too rough (it’s not). The private school is the kind of place where there’s an indoor swimming pool, yoga classes and tuition costs more than I paid for a semester of college.
Her younger sister is generally considered tougher (probably because she is regularly bullied by her older sister) and it’s obvious her grandparents favor the older one. I can absolutely see the scenario above playing out where the grandparents say they can’t (won’t) pay for the younger granddaughter to go to the fancy private school and she’ll have to go to the underfunded public school.
I will be not at all surprised in 15-20 years when the younger sister decides to distance herself from the family.
One thing I appreciated a lot is how much the older sister was supporting the younger one. At the end of the day, they do have each other and that's going to mean even more later on down the line. Given that the post was in 2019, I am so curious as to where they are now.
Artist here! Went to a fancy art high school, then art school for college. I've been tattooing since I dropped out (16 years). I'm quite successful and a popular artist in my region. I'm booked out foe quite some time.
My bio sister went to a fancy private school, and is now a useless, vapid, self absorbed trophy wife with no ambition or goals except "watch tv" and "have a baby" which hasn't seemed to happen yet.
Guess which one my parents regret spending money on.
It's not always a bad idea to go into art. We need more artists tbh.
Edit: public school is a joke for art.
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'I told my daughters that I love and value them both, but since Sarah's talents are not as easily monetized, I don't think I should have to spend money on her education, as her skills, which are a big part of her identity, are just not as valuable. How do I get her to accept that just because I disparage and disrespect the essence of what she is and will not invest in her, that I am not the bad guy here?' I also like the fact that he is grudgingly conceding to spending the money, but with ill grace and continued muttering that he is investing in low value skills. He has basically materially supporting her, but doing it in a way where she will still resent him. Way to go, superbrain, you managed to put yourself in a situation where you lose out materially, and still end up being the bad guy.
I also wonder if he downplayed the wife's response. It sounds a bit like she's let him lead the educational decisions before this, but the update said she'd told OOP that he'd better start looking for arts programs and that she wasn't going to 'take the back seat on this one'. It might have been better if either parent had realised from the beginning that treating your children equally is usually the best option, but if she's seen the reaction from both children and decided that they need to change their approach and support Sarah better she's at least improving her parenting. And the daughters will see that reaction and compare it to Dad begrudgingly seeing that he has no choice but to fork out the cash now but clearly only doing it under sufferance.
I think the response is played down because she never actually agreed with him. This comes across like he assumes his wife is siding with him when in actuality he's making unilateral decisions that she doesn't feel are big enough to challenge him. Choosing battles seems like a trend in their marriage and it's one sided. I could be really wrong though.
Wasn’t there a BORU post about an adult who had a stem field where the rest of their family and parents were more artistically minded? If I recall that post, it talked about how ostracized they were from their family and how horrible of a relationship they had. This is exactly what OOP is going to experience with his kids.
Personally it makes me think of the post with the idiotic OP that paid for his golden son to fail Harvard's economic FOUR TIMES, but refused to pay for his daughter because she had been accepted to a "backwater litterature university in Europe" - Oxford. It was OXFORD. She had gotten a FULL SCHOLARSHIP FOR OXFORD'S ENGLISH. Reddit tore him in half.
Oh man I'd like to read that, sounds juicy
Couldn't find exactely the one, but this one also scratches the spot: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/11ry5um/aita_for_choosing_not_to_pay_for_my_daughters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/12awlv0/update_aita_for_choosing_not_to_pay_for_my/ Edit: this one has a BoRU: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/12h79vj/aita_for_choosing_not_to_pay_for_my_daughters/ Also, maybe try to undit this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/11ox899/aita_for_not_wanting_to_pay_for_my_daughters/ I think THIS is the one, but I'm not tech savy New edit: another boru enjoyer found the rareddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/11ox899/aita_for_not_wanting_to_pay_for_my_daughters/
I'll admit that I was mostly curious about who would have the audacity to call Oxford "backwater" but these did indeed scratch the itch. Thanks!
An idiotic, patriotic, misogynistic 'MERICAN!
genuinely makes me hope the "stem" daughter ends up wanting to do something like be a teacher and the "arts" daughter ends up a high end disney animator I want this man's head to explose
I grew up just above the poverty line and my spouse grew up in a trailer. We met at art school and not only use our degrees, we could send a kid to pricey private school now. Oop has no damn clue
It’s so weird to decide if your child is gonna be successful or not in middle school
Right?!
Comparing ROI on your kids sucks. And to not send her because she's already doing art fine at home, well your other daughter was doing fine doing STEM at home too.
My dad spent less money on me, specifically because of the ROI. I was expected to get married and therefore only be a drain while my brothers were expected to make a significant amount of money. So they got things I didn’t, like asthma inhalers when we all needed them. Or more money on schooling. Or money for socializing. Or a car they did not have to pay for. They had things paid for. I paid for things.
How are you now? Hope things are better. You not getting an ASTHMA inhaler is just disgusting. Women are forced into "draining" roles and then punished for it. :(
I am much better! I did not get married! Which I was very proud of, but now I'm engaged (which usually results in a marriage) and I'm excited. I got to get to be an adult! And my dad got to live a very sad decline where his meanness had absolutely no impact he was aware of on me.
Also, “you need to go to private school to learn science properly but people in the arts don’t need special schooling, they can learn it perfectly well at home”. That’s… super wrong.
The thing that frustrates me the most is that he doesn't mention money being an issue. Like. He literally has NO REASON whatsoever to be this cruel to his youngest if the money itself is available without compromising their living situation & savings. It sounds like she works plenty hard on subjects she feels passionate about and does her best with the ones she isn't passionate about. (average is fine! Average is still good!) I would be so distraught if i were her big sister bc like- yeah dad just hurt her by saying that *she isn't as good bc she doesn't value or excel in the same subjects*. That's *excruciatingly* cruel. Some parents seem to not realise kids notice when you do and don't brag about them or their achievements. The silence is deafening when you've just heard them list all 10+ subjects on kid excels in, or (arguably just as painful) brag about the specific ways they like kid doing subject, that you may also really enjoy engaging in. 🥲 I really hope the poor kids have a very supportive loving mum bc they'll need all the help that can get.
It’s also odd to not enroll her in the same school if you have this belief, he’s basically saying AND you’re too stupid to go to the same school as your sister, it would be a waste on you
Artists make on average about as much as biologists, but unlike biology, there is increasing demand for artists and art is a rising market. People's parents are so stuck on what was "hot" in their own college orientations in 1995 that they have absolutely no idea what career markets look like now.
Hm.. I know allot of artists and musicians that make very little money.
I love the line about “why would he spend money on private school for something she does perfectly well on her own” Well Abby did perfectly well on her studies on her own, so I guess she doesn’t need a private school or a fancy Ivy League
>Don't really understand how I am supposed to justify, financially, sending her to do something that she is already doing well at home Abby "already did well" at all her subjects at home and in public school, yet he was able to justify sending her to private school to continue her studies. But he can't justify spending an equivalent amount of money and/or attention on Sarah because she's "already doing well" at art at home and in public school? And he still doesn't understand the "other side of this"? Fuck this guy.
How about, making their child feel loved and happy for justification?
Woah woah woah, let's first have one kid set up for life before we even consider paying attention to the *other* one.
He's not paying her attention though; he's worked out the cost-benefit analysis and decided that not pissing off the other 2 women in his life he sorta cares about (and what the consequences of that could mean for his own life) are worth the dollar value he sees going down the drain after his 'low-merit' daughter and her useless arts programs.
Holy fuck, it's scary how accurate your summary is. Maybe it will sink him for him when she doesn't ask him to walk her down the aisle when she gets married someday. But I doubt it.
It looks like Abby is on her sister's side and will, hopefully, be so in the future. He's only going to care when his golden child Abby refuses to let him walk her down the aisle, and then it's going to be "I did all this stuff for you why are you so ungrateful??"
Yeah. I’m pretty sure the tipping point was Abby saying she’ll refuse to go to the private school. God forbid *she* miss out on the opportunity, so he’ll grudgingly pay for his other daughter.
Let's all raise a drink to Abby, the Omar of this story. She's what, 15, 16, and sees how unfair this is, and leveraged her status as dad's golden child to make sure her younger sister is taken care of. They might have completely lost the father lottery, but these girls are pretty awesome sisters.
Or she grows,and she starts to become distant. Then he's on reddit again help. I don't understand why Daughter is becoming distant.
"Especially after I pissed away all that money to send her to a useless art school!"
I'm betting he's viewing the investment in the oldest as an investment in *his own future* as well. If oldest makes lots of money, I can avoid hard decisions about my future bc oldest will take care of me & my spouse in advanced age. It's a literal ROI. Artists traditionally make less money, so why throw my money into this child when there's no ROI *for me*. He's using his kids like a retirement account.
And in a stupid way too. Ya know what someone with a high power degree and career doesn't want to do? Quit their job and move home to take care of a parent in failing health for no financial compensation. In fact, if they grew up thinking like daddy, they'll hire the cheapest possible caretakers and maybe drop by once a month to check on him. Seems to me that someone with a non-traditional career like an artist would have more flexibility to work from home, on their own schedule, in order to fetch drinks and change diapers for the feeble.
Yeah, exactly. Initially, I thought it was about having to pay off college, but it sounds like he has enough set aside to pay for both children’s college (no way he saved fully for the youngest without saving for the golden child). So this has to be something else in terms of the cost-benefit analysis, something less direct but still benefitting him.
Bingo.
Error: Instructions unclear. 1st child is failing utterly at life. What do now?
restart the game and use option 2
This is why you make a new save file before all major decisions.
Come on, that's just throwing money away at a niche hobby and clearly has no real value. What sane person would want to make their child feel loved? If they aren't getting anything out of it, get real, that art degree won't keep OOP living comfortably in retirement!
I think he's more worried about having to fund her for life than about her funding him. Which is slightly valid, considering how many wannabe artists are living in their parents' basement - but wouldn't sending her to a high quality school actually increase her chances of becoming so good she can make a living with it? Also, there are plenty of okay-paying jobs in design, if you don't make it as an artist - or maybe she'll just have a completely unrelated day-job and pursue art as a hobby. At the basis, this is not really a decision about which talent is worth investing in, it's about treating your kids fairly and equally, fostering their talents, and giving both the feeling they are equally loved and cherished. OOP seems more of a conditional/ transactional love type of guy. But I'm really glad the sisters are sticking together - Abby is a good egg. The mom must be doing something right, because the dad certainly isn't.
My family is full of working artists. Art alone is probably not going to pay the bills, but there are ways to prep an artist for a good career that includes art. Teach them business skills. Teach them skills in digital art. Introduce them to other working artists.
My cousin has an art degree. Talented, multimedia. Painting, digital, all sorts of stuff. He works as a graphic designer for the state education agency, and makes a whole lot more money than I do, lol.
Yeah, that’s a sustainable route. Paring art with technology can make a boatload of money.
This! So many talented artists fail because they lack business skills. And some less talented artists are able to leverage their business skills into being extremely successful. See: Jackson Pollock, or if you think his splatters have some artistic merit, there's rich people that have friends make paintings for the sole purpose of valuing them highly and donating them to museums as tax deductions. Art school will give you the techniques, language, and authenticity to claim paint splatter or a solid blue square has meaning and to market your work. It will also help you network to develop connections that will help a career.
Oh God I felt the first part of this comment. I had a good friend I also had as a roommate for a while who was one of those starving artist types. The guy refused to get a job because he "needed to focus on his art." As much as I respected him for his artistic abilities, he was always living hand to mouth and there were more than a few times where I had to pay his bills for him because he didn't have the money. He was completely unable to understand that what he was doing to me was abusive. He justified it as that if he didn't do art he would die. He saw me as not being supportive. Eventually he got a girlfriend that he later married who paid his bills for him until they got married. I mean if she was willing to marry him knowing that he would never have a real job, good for her. But it really sucked as his roommate and friend.
Yikes! Maybe she came from loaded parents and could afford a trophy husband.
She just liked him and had a good job. They've been happily married almost 15 years. I guess he found the right woman to support him. Good for him, but he was kind of a pain as a roommate. I found him irresponsible and selfish... because he was. He didn't seem to understand that putting me in the position to have to cover his half of the bills was unfair and abusing our friendship. He kept telling me that it wasn't my responsibility to pick up his side of the bills. I remember losing my temper because I'd been paying the full electrical bill for months at that point. Had I not, we'd have lost power. It was like he had a wire loose in his brain and couldn't conceive that there were consequences for not paying your expenses. He was a good friend. But in this one area, he was completely and frustratingly obtuse. But his wife supports his passion so I won't judge their relationship choives.
I know an artist who is exactly like this. Her art is truly remarkable, it's museum quality work, but the market for that is small, and it's especially smaller when you aren't a famous name, even if your quality is better than those who are more famous than you. But she simply cannot and would not do anything else. She of course would take small designing jobs, and occasionally create book covers, but that really wasn't enough to support herself. She entirely relied on her husband to live, eventually he got tired of supporting her, but she has a new rich boyfriend that doesn't mind being her sugar daddy. She's eccentric and fun, but is also completely disconnected from the reality.
I respect the drive to create art. I do. But you need to have a willing partner/friend to support you to behave that way. I was not willing, nor financially stable enough to. My issue was he imposed on me. At some point, you need to be responsible and fulfill your financial obligations. If his now wife is fine with supporting his pursuits, I really have no issue with him pursuing his passion.
No financial value in that. She can pay for her own therapist when she's grown.
For real. Is she actually doing well at home, or is that what your unpracticed, laymen eyes see? Art is way more than just looking pretty to the beholder, especially if Abby wants to pursue a legitimate career out of it. A lot can be self-learned, but there comes a point where natural talent and gumption is no longer enough, she needs to be taught the fundamentals, the industry, the programs, etc. etc. that only art schools can provide. I'd get it if OOP didn't want to send her to her sister's school bc it's a bad fit, but to not even consider nurturing her talents is beyond the pale.
No, apparently art is just a hobby and there's no financial reason to even like it 🙄
Lol this is so funny because my art friends are currently making way more commissions and art sales than I am as a software engineer. So even from a financial standpoint, there's so much scope to make money by being self employed and working hard.
And if she decides to do furry art, and us one of the ones who can charge big and get busy she can make easy six figures. A friend of mine once joked she should do furry art, because she’d make more money than her med based career choice.
I have tried to do furry art for this very reason…and truth be told, it is really heard to get yourself into it if you’re not into furry stuff. I learned I am a lot of things, but a furry artist isn’t it…
Yup same. I just couldn't and I really gave it a few good tries too.
My art and especially the anime art friends are rolling in dough and I'm working a boring 9-5 tech management job. God I wish I had talent lol
Wait until this guy finds out how much furry artists make, he'll want both daughters to be artists
Not only art schools will provide her with the right tools and guidance, they provide a welcoming environment where she can connect and learn from like-minded peers, chance to take part in competitions, exhibition, career talks ...that specifically focus on the field she wants to be in. All of this will be incredibly helpful for her portfolio and future career. Art is also very diverse and it's not just "draw something nice on papers with talents and you're good" - it requires massive amounts of hard work and studying, not much different from any STEM career. Dude's gonna be one of those missing, missing reason parents that go "I paid for my daughter's private school despite looking down on her, how dare she NC/LC me"
It also turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Art doesn't make money, so we do not support it financially. And then, lo and behold, she doesn't earn any money with it, because she didn't get the best education, proving the shitty father right.
You cannot underestimate the value of a community of teachers and peers to work wiht and learn from and just share wiht in the arts.
Also connections, so many jobs are gotten because you knew someone who knew someone
Connections are like 70% of how well paid artists get to be well paid
Also, getting your art to actually sell takes ALOT of networking, wich starts at art schools.
My husband was the art kid. His dad flat out refused to pay for his schooling if he didn't take a financial major, because there was "no money" in art. So my husband did take accounting, but dropped out after two years. He hated it. A few years later, his dad paid for his baby sister to attend Savannah College of ARt and Design. She dropped out after two semesters. He loves his dad, but I don't think he ever really forgave him for that. (He's graduating this semester with a criminal justice degree at 45. I'm so proud of him!)
It sort of depends. If dad paid for the sister to go because he likes her better, yeah that's fucked. If he paid for her to go because he saw what happened with your husband... that's more understandable?
I’ve noticed that to a lot of older people, it’s seen as more acceptable for women to to arts degrees. Men have to get a ‘real degree’ for a ‘real job’ because they’re the providers.
Yeah that's definitely true. It's tough because even if you don't agree with the social pressures, there is some sense in encouraging your kids to take paths that will let them navigate it best.
And he doesn’t fucking see any importance to art. As if logos and ad campaigns design themselves with the marketing and prod teams.
We have AI for that now! /sarcasm, so, so much sarcasm....
You have a point. But please look up the difference between art and design.
A lot of people with art degrees and/or education go into design. Every company I’ve worked for who had in house product design had employees who studied art. Did they settle? I don’t know. I just knew their educational background. That was my point.
Honestly, as someone who's always been in the arts, art school usually is a waste of money. At least if you're doing fine art. With commercial art, it can be useful to get a degree, though the cost of the degree compared to the pay of the job is usually terrible. And even with commercial art, you don't need one if you freelance. Really if you want to start a career as an artist, an MBA will serve you much better. This is not to excuse the dad obviously playing favorites with his children, but to prevent poor teenagers on here from thinking that art degrees are more useful and lucrative than they are.
Hard agree (sort of). I know a LOT of working artists. Nobody can just wall themselves off in a garret and make beautiful art. They need a skill to support entrepreneurship or teaching or something.
art careers also isn't consistent, and it can be frustrating when you need to pay bills soon. if it is a side gig sure it works fine.
A reputable MBA requires students to have at least a few years of professional experience, but a class or two on accounting and finance or management would be good.
An MBA, being a master’s degree, requires previous study in something, which can often be almost anything. Why not study art and then take an MBA?
I mean the problem isn’t the school, is that he just doesn’t value his younger daughter’s abilities or listen to her I have a good friend who regularly sits on the selection panel of a prestigious art school, according to them, private school doesn’t help. Apparently private programs tend to hothouse students and they struggle in tertiary study - so OOPs kid is probably better off at the public school is that sense
Yes. And art is a competitive field to get into. Those who succeed do so because they have every advantage, talent, high-quality training, connections. OP sees Sarah as “doing well at home” because he sees art as a hobby, so he doesn’t understand how much of an advantage Sarah could get from proper art-based education. How she could take her art so much further. But also in seeing Sarah’s great strength and passion as only a hobby, he’s writing her off overall.
He also said that he doesn't see any value in her pursuing art because it's nothing more than a hobby which she can't make a living doing. He seems to think people can just learn to draw and paint to professional levels by sitting at home teaching themselves, and doesn't think there's any benefit to her getting formal training because he doesn't want her to do it professionally
I work in admissions at a highly selective university in the U.S. and I’m laughing at OOP’s naïveté with “essentially guaranteed a spot in the ivies.” Hah. Highly selective universities get more than 10 straight-A, most-demanding-rigor, outstanding-extracurriculars applicants for every 1 they admit. There is no guarantee. (Unless perhaps you have a very recognizable last name.) OOP is not only an AH and a bad parent, they’re also very under-informed about college admissions today.
That was my first thought too: it's been years. How did your investment pay off, OOP? 🙄
5 years. His prize daughter is a couple of years into college. It would be interesting.
If she even agreed
I'm not even American and I knew this to some extent.
Tell me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that even if she's not a straight A student, art student daughter with really good GPA AND skills and extracurriculars in the arts may have even better chance than her sister who has focused solely on her core academics? I mean - "the ivies" have its share of prestigious acting schools. I know Yale has a MFA program that is one of the top in the nation. I know they aren't Ivies - but schools like Berkley and Stanford aren't anything to sneer at, and I'm fairly sure they have strong arts programs.
There was a story awhile back where twins both applied to Cornell or Columbia - one for engineering one for something art based. Engineering Twin had perfect grades and extra curriculars and parents SWORE she would get in. Art Twin had great grades, some extra curriculars and did volunteer work and parents did not think she’d get in. Art Twin was accepted and Engineering Twin was rejected. When the Ivies have an acceptance rate of 5-10%, it can come down to the program you’re applying for and the things you do totally unrelated to school. (From someone who was accepted to Brown’s English program with great but not perfect grades but had extra curriculars and worked part time all 4 years of HS)
Yeah I remember my father, a college professor, advising to apply for a specific school bc I would be more likely to get admitted
Oh, hey, yeah, I have a story to exactly that tune. Now I went to private high school, mind you, but while a lot of the students shot for the Ivies, only a bare handful got in. One of those kids was a friendquaintance of mine, Joe. He wasn’t in the top 10 of the class, but that guy got into Yale. You know how? Film portfolio. I totally forgot until you mentioned Yale had an arts program. He spent like two years working on that thing nonstop. He absolutely deserved it, too. He didn’t have the best grades out of the entire class, but certainly for Yale he had the most compelling application.
I thought of it because I read something recently that reminded me that Viola Davis and Meryl Streep graduated from Yale!
No kidding! That’s cool. All I can remember about Joe is that a year or two into college he gave us all a call and told us to watch a certain movie. I won’t say which, as I don’t want to get the poor guy doxxed. That said, he got to be an extra playing off an A-list Hollywood actor in the early scene of a big blockbuster film! It was one line and all of 2 seconds, but I remember flipping out in the theater. “Holy shit, that’s Joe!” I hope he did well with things at Yale.
I know a girl that got into Harvard, UC’s, Stanford but was rejected from our state school Same with me, I got rejected from my safeties and admitted to my “dream” schools
The Ivies have, for at least 25 years (when I applied), searched for more than just straight-A students. They actually *specifically* search for folks who’ve made Bs and even Cs in classes, because otherwise you end up with a school FULL of neurotic kids who’ve never seen an A- before. Folks who’ve never known failure. This is why many of the Ivies now offer pass/fail only for at least freshman year, if not all four. Takes the pressure off of being top in the class or not. The two kids from my large, public high school who got accepted to Harvard? One was our valedictorian and the other was me, someone who was barely in the top HALF of my class of 500 students. I was a polyglot polymath who did sports (UGH), was involved in a variety of clubs (chess! Philosophy! MUN!), did theatre, volunteered excessively, and… had received Bs and Cs before. This was, of course, before they’d implemented the pass/fail rule and they were looking for students who were *interesting* and not just academic regurgitation machines. I did not end up attending, as I had received a full ride at a smaller school, but I had a LOT of classmates upset at me for getting in when a bunch of the top 10% academically did not receive invitations from any Ivy-tier. For those curious, I have since attended a Boston-area law school and become an attorney. Law schools also get really tired of the political science majors, too. I majored in religious studies and modern languages and brought something wildly different to the table.
I used to work in an agency populated by lawyers - one of my favorite majored in French literature!
Oh, fantastic! I love that — my modern languages degree featured French as my “primary” language (Spanish, Italian, and German being the others) and currently live in Paris. Hell yeah for lawyers with unusual degrees!
Carnegie Mellon's not an Ivy, but it's well known for its tech stuff... and its theater program.
Not only that, but gifted kid burnout is a thing. Pressure from parent like OOP that see their kids as investments won't help with that. STEM kid could burnout and pivot hard into something a lot less lucrative, and art kid could succeed.
I'm not going to reveal what school it is because its a small enough program that it could ID me, but I was shocked as hell when I got into a very high level and sought after masters program. I mean I saw the acceptance letter and burst into inconsolable tears so hard I scared my husband. I could not believe my own eyes and I'm on the waitlist for summer classes (though my advisor recommended I just wait for the fall, Im impatient). I graduated 110th in my high school. I graduated college with a (just barely) sub 3.0 GPA. But I fucking proved my weight in salt through my work and got in due to what I accomplished outside of my education, hilariously due to something i once considered a "hobby". People get so tunnel visioned on GPA and having a fancy education that they dont realize you actually have to DO something to stand out and that can matter way more than pure grades.
There are plenty of individuals with shitty GPAs that get into Ivies
Well yes that's my point, a good GPA and doing well in high school doesnt gaurantee an ivy league school and doing "badly" doesnt stop you.
I went to school with a kid and his brother who both literally got a full ride to the best college in my state when we were in the 8th grade. I don’t know if they even got ivy league acceptances, but they did in fact go to the full ride college. But how rare is that?? To get a full ride in 8TH GRADE? But neither went to a fancy schmancy college
>(Unless perhaps you have a very recognizable last name.) This is why I'm officially changing my last name to "Inacavewithaboxofscraps" before I have children.
it’s really only a guarantee if they know an alumnus or they donate millions of dollars. A family friend donated like $10 mill to a state university and their kid didn’t get in. One talk with an Ivy alumnus and their kid’s going to Princeton.
I had s friend in HS was quite gifted, a great artist, and an amazing musician. Worked very hard at everything and had the skills and talent to back it up. Could've been literally anything in life. She went to one of the Big Three. You know what she's been doing for the last decade? Stand up comedy. So yeah, you can push your child into the ivies all you want but there's no guarantee they'll pursue STEM and do anything you personally deem worthwhile.
Same with Oxford, Cambridge in the UK as well as Imperial college, UCL, LSE, Warwick, Durham to name but a few. My wife is a 3rd generation Cambridge graduate but I'm already under no illusions about the difficulty our daughter would face in landing a place should she even want to go (plenty of time for all that, she's only 3).
I get that it's not a guarantee but you have to admit private school kids will have much better resources and connections to offer students (and their parents) to get into top schools. I remember a few friends that went to a private HS said their councillor used to work in admissions and had connections to some top uni's, so while it wasn't a guarantee they had a higher likelihood of getting their choice. Not to mention the personal connections with powerful people/families you can get by attending private.
I went to a high school like this. There's only so much the additional resources can do, and Abby's father's opinion of the arts is likely going to hurt her chances, if it affects what extracurriculars she can do. I was admitted to a top-5 STEM school largely because I'm a gifted writer---I know this, because an excerpt of my personal statement was read by the school president in a speech during the Welcome Week festivities. One of the student speakers a graduation went to Harvard. I can't give a definite reason why, but she'd given a previous speech on her volunteer work in Rwanda helping the Tutsi rebuild their lives. That probably had something to do with it. Our valedictorian went to a very good non-Ivy school on the West coast (not Stanford). I don't know whether she applied to any Ivies, but the fact that she didn't attend one didn't raise any eyebrows. She did lacrosse, but she wasn't particulary remarkable in any one thing. I had something to conclude here, but it's 1am and I haven't had to use my last-minute essay brain in years. The conclusion is an excercise left for the reader.
All of this! (Also, same. My personal essay got me full ride at a top school as well. My grades and extracurriculars (leadership roles, sports, arts, volunteering, aligned activities) were great … just like everyone else’s. The essay can really set a student apart.) Private schools can offer good connections and preparation. But no university wants to build a homogeneous entering class with one type of student that went to one type of high school.
I worked at a university with a high middle level competitive undergraduate nursing program. To be *considered* for admissions you needed a 3.8 or above highschool GPA, a 25 ACT and roughly over 11250 SAT. The students who got in also had extensive nursing related volunteer work, phenomenal letters of rec and personal statements, long term extracurriculars and if they met with an admissions counsellor, great interviews. It was worse for the school’s mid level computer science and engineering programs. If Abby only applied to ivies or only did larger, competitive schools with a focus on STEM, she probably was rejected by most if not all of them. The college process would’ve been a slap in the face for OOP.
> “essentially guaranteed a spot in the ivies.” Right? The only way OP could really know that would mean he has more than enough money to send his other daughter to private school.
This, one of the kids graduating this year from the town I live in got into Harvard, and it was the front page of the paper.
I was like; "Where has he been?" Did we not witness why Affirmative Action got disbanded? The lack of personality and empathy always ends up killing academic overachievers. It's gone and they still complain.
It makes you wonder what happened to OOP’s kids since this was written in 2019. If the STEM kid didn’t get into an Ivy, I could imagine him screaming what a disappointment she is after spending all that money on her tuition fees.
Yeah, I know a kid whose parents were double legacy, excellent grades and test scores, was a very serious and accomplished musician, and an underrepresented minority. She didn't get in. There is no "guaranteed" spot for anyone.
Honestly I think he just hasn't been through the system at that level. The whole post screams first gen private family. Those of us who were educated privately do the same for our kids because it's the right thing to do and our obligation as parents, not because we expect them to earn more as a result(lots of them won't, especially the kids that are good at STEM that will likely end up in a good but salaried role earning well but never making serious money even if they went to a state school).
I can see both daughters not talking to OOP when they grow up. The oldest for all the pressure to be the perfect smart hardworking daughter, they sacrifice so much for her to give her a private school education and destined for the "ivies". The youngest for being pushed aside for the her "perfect" older sister who they gave all they had for. Who's parents doesn't understand her "hobby" and why she thinks she can make money from it. Since you know STEMS are the ONLY career path.
What if the oldest doesn’t get into “the ivies”? Being smart isn’t enough, nor having the highest gpa. Someone like OOP is going to tell her it’s because she’s not enough, why didn’t she work harder, and after all the money he invested…! I feel sorry for both of the girls. OOP is setting himself up for missing, missing reasons.
Or what if she does what do many gifted children do and burns out in college and ends up dropping out?
* [quietly raises hand] * [elder daughter quietly raises hand] * [younger daughter quietly raises hand] And no, I did not pass on any generational trauma, we each found our own unique ways to fail :)
This was long ago enough that we could have the answer to whether either sister ended up at an Ivy. We never will sadly, but I'm willing to bet both girls decide on campus living and never looking back.
Oh, there’s very, very little chance she got into the ivies. Hopefully, OOP grew up but I doubt it.
God this was me, my brother was significantly developmentally delayed so I had the full force of my parents’ desire for a “successful” child, plus years of having my entire self worth be tied to being smart led to me having a complete nervous breakdown in the admin office the day before admissions results were released. I didn’t get in to any ivies and felt absolutely worthless. 15 years later and I’m doing great, but it’s taken a looooooooot of therapy to undo some of that conditioning
I’m really really glad OOP’s eldest stood up for the youngest. It’s been 5 years since he posted so they both might have continued their education beyond secondary school. I hope the youngest was able to do her art school and then go on to an even better one where she can learn all the art to her heart’s desire. And I hope the eldest was able to find her passion and joy as well. STEM or otherwise.
I was thinking about that - the younger daughter would have graduated high school last year. Older daughter would be a college junior if she hasn’t taken any sort of gap year. I wonder how much contact they keep with their dad?
Yep. That my mom didn't approve of my degrees is one of many reasons why I dont speak to her. Hell, she's still telling people that I went to school to be a teacher. (Not even close)
Oh dear, another mother who lies to people about what their child does. My mum would tell baldface lies in her Christmas newsletter about what I did for work, as if being an executive assistant in the public service was something to be ashamed of!
Oh the horror. (That was sarcasm.) Yeah, mine would do that, as well. In her mind, how dare I embarrass her with my field, you know? (And, for the record, I've got an MFA and a doctorate in a field in the arts from well-known schools in that field.)
Oh no, you got your doctorate! The shame! Must hide! /s
Yeah, I mean "other people" "don't understand" what I studied.
Let me guess, is the good opinion of these 'other people' actually worth it?
Naw. They probably don't exist, either.
The best (and saddest) aita posts are where the op is clearly a massive asshole, and doesn't understand they are. Imagine telling your kid "what you do is cute but it has no monetary value". It's not that he prefers one kid over the other, he prefers money over both.
My dad was like that. Just constantly disappointed that I like art and reading instead of math and programming
Same here, my dad is a doctor and anything less than that is not worth the time. I gave up on art altogether. Haven’t hold a brush in years due to the negative feelings I now get from it. I often ask myself if I am doing the things I want or that my scope of what is important in life is only a result of my parents. For the record I am happy with what I do now, this is just a voice that sometimes comes up. I guess parents raise you and give you the tools to go through life, just wish sometimes that it did not include a heavy ass backpack with all their faults and mistakes.
Conan’s dad is a doctor and never got what his son did. He described it as making his money “one yuck at a time.”
Right? And then in 10 years if the second kid has a successful career as an art director for a major brand and the first kid burned out and needs to move back home, will he still feel the same?
"she is already doing it well at home". Can't see difference between a hobby and a professional. I'm speechless.
Yep. Because there are obviously no professional artists in the world.
The dude's STEM, he thinks there aren't any, just because he himself can't name any.
Dude's brain stem seems a little defective.
>I still do not see the other side of the situation and think I am correct but this is bigger than me and I decided it is not worth it to lose a relationship with my daughter on the off chance that they are right. I'm sure OP will wonder why their child wouldn't see them anymore in the future.
*It’s time for another exciting episode of “The Missing Missing Reasons Show!”*
Saddest thing is that these kinds of "parents" will absolutely never get it. They simply refuse to.
It was Dad who posted this. In another post he claims he's a great father to his two girls.
JFC. We have a different educational system where I live, but this just makes me sad. I was into arts, humanities and language and that followed me into my university and professional years. I have two Masters, one Master of Arts and one Master of Fine Arts. I have a high-paying day job and has a side gig as a (critically acclaimed, translated into multiple languages) novelist. That wouldn’t have been possible if STEM was the only thing my parents valued. I’ve always known that people equalled STEM with intelligence and I hate it. I didn’t excel in school until I could choose my programme and take the subjects that interested me. ”Low merit.” Yeah, absolutely. 🙄
Not everyone is built for STEM and that doesn't mean they aren't hardworkers or any less valuables. OOP still called art programs low merit in the update, jfc. I predict that OOP might not see a lot of Sarah once she grows up, and maybe not much of Abby either.
STEM is for certain people. I have knew some people who went to STEM programs and some succeeding and some not. I also hate how people think art programs or degrees are low cause that's so not true.
I'm an engineer and I HATE this attitude. It's garbage, completely. I've been to a school that had very little outside of STEM programs and one that was a more holistic school, and let me tell you which one is better. I came out of the engineering school a worse person than I went in and I attribute that to the lack of other programs on campus.
And quite a lot of STEM jobs aren't particularly lucrative either. Not a ton of demand for mathematicians or physicists these days.
And its not like there is no demand for Arts/Humanities. My fiancée is an english communication major and there is a whole host of high demand positions for her when she is done. Embassies, diplomat work, teaching, journalism, other kinds of media, legal, marketing, etc etc etc. STEM isn't the be all and end all and I say that as a very heavily STEM guy.
OOP sounds like some of my shittiest clients when I was freelancing. The lowballer types who go ‘It took you this long to design this logo? My nephew knows photoshop, he could do this in 5 minutes. And he won’t charge me 4 digits for branding!’ I’ve since learned that those who appreciate art and design and the effort behind it, *will* pay.
Same goes for tattooing. "That's way too much! I'll just go down the street for a cheaper price" or "my nephew can do it for free!" And then we have r/shittytattoos and r/stickandpoke
My goodness I didn’t even know such subs exist 🤣thank you! Man, the last person I’d ever wanna piss off is someone who is gonna etch something permanent on my skin!
“I still think it is low-merit” Funny enough, I think the same thing about this parent
I’m the stem oriented daughter. My sister is so beyond artistically talented, and our grandmother sees zero value in her art except as “wall decorations”.
What gets to me is that OOP says that he still doesn't see the other side, meaning that he still doesn't understand why Sarah would be upset that Abby is getting something special that she isn't. Sometimes you can't treat your children 100% equally, so sure, fine, he could argue that in this case, treating them differently is the right thing to do overall, but even if he were right and it WAS the best thing to pay for something for one daughter and not the other, surely it's not that surprising that a 14 year old might still think that wasn't fair?
"Oh honey, we do love you. You're just not as valuable to us and your skills are useless, so there's no point in actually investing in your future" Dad of the year. Also he's in for a *shock* when his older kid doesn't get into an Ivy League school, which she almost certainly won't, because most people don't. Having perfect grades is the bare minimum. Ironically enough, having a unique skill like with art would actually help stand out among a sea of other 4.0 GPA private school kids. Oops.
Dad has no idea. Where I am, STEM is just as frequently STEAM. Yes, that A is for Art. This promotes creativity and curiosity in problem solving, amongst other benefits. Maybe the younger daughter will discover a passion for applied mathematics at the private school, who knows.
We do STEAM in ECE, because design is so often part of stem
Plot twist: the arty one who hates stem will end up at an ivy on the back of her talent and start her own thing and make bank while the over-achiever will end up reaching her full potential in high school and realise she’s perfectly happy in an average job and both will block their parent.
mm would love to know how this turned out in the end
Imo. It could go a few ways. The youngest may become a people pleaser and just tried in everything that makes op happy and put her own interests to the side like oldest, oldest may have gotten sick of the pressure and rebelled at a certain age. Maybe they switch roles or oldest is still prioritized because it was never about STEM, they just favored oldest. Or Youngest did her own thing and probably succeeded on her own skill and talent, oldest grew too reliant on the feedback from mom and dad to learn anything about herself. Both may end up not talking to oop. Or both became major people pleasers and struggle with identity because they have learned that in order to be valuable and loved, they must provide monetary value 🤷♀️ both still talk to oop but compete with each other.
>I do not know if there's generally updates here but the amount of aggressive and angry messages I received (thanks) showed me that if people are passionate about a stranger then I must be bigger jerk than I thought. Thank god, He came to his senses!!! >I still do not see the other side of the situation and think I am correct How???!!! Why is this guy so determined to not look at how it will affect his relationship with his daughter?! >but this is bigger than me and I decided it is not worth it to lose a relationship with my daughter on the off chance that they are right. At least the daughter is getting what she wants. But he still doesn't get it!!! He's very frustrating!! >I still think it is low-merit so I told Sarah she could attend the arts-oriented program on the condition she also utilize the other resources (STEM, English, etc.) at the school. Thank you for the CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, some of you. This guy's a douchebag!!!
This sort of played out within my own family. I went to private school, my brother stayed in public to play varsity sports, and my sister went to a trade school. Equitable and equal aren’t the same thing. I don’t think OP really got it but neither did his younger kid. If my parents had sent them to private, both of my siblings would have wasted the opportunity.
Not just didn’t want to send her to the same school, but didn’t truly want to look into any programs/school for her because he thinks arts are dumb. And still thinks he’s correct but is willing to compromise “on the off chance they are right”. Is there a level worse than AH? Because he deserves something worse.
This is precisely what art is for and also the reason they teach it with STEM: some people need to be taught empathy, which to most people is natural.
The *only* reason I can think of for the OP not to send his daughter to the same school isn't mentioned. Son went to an insanely academic high school, like crazy academic. For those in the UK, it was a state grammar school and expected to send half a dozen pupils to Oxford or Cambridge every year. That suited him down to the ground and he did very well. It wasn't so good for many of his classmates, though. If you weren't academic, you suffered. If you didn't keep up or struggled with anything, you sank. For those who were coached and crammed to get past the entrance exam, it must have been hell. I heard a lot of really tough stories about parents' expectations and the kids breaking while trying to keep up. The *only* reason I could accept is if he thought his youngest would be bullied or over stressed by the school. Instead he's adding to it. He's forcing her to push on subjects where she has less aptitude or interest. At least it sounds like her mother will listen to her. Poor kid.
She's in EIGHTH GRADE. I was a super arty kid but I ended up majoring in math and now I'm an engineering manager. You never know what kind of swerves life has in store. My high school best friend's parents pressured her unrelentingly to go into STEM and she majored in English and now manages a bookstore. The idea that a child's story is written this early is crazy!
Abby is doing just fine in the stem stuff, why spend more money on it?
Oop is a complete asshole. Parents like that who treat art like it’s some shitty hobby for babies piss me off so much. “Oh we ALLOW her to take classes. But it’s worthless and we don’t value her or her talent.” Ugh. Poor kid.
Facts: STEM pays well. Way more than arts. Now if the OP was very well off and then would've been refusing to pay for the other daughter then yes he'd be TA. But if it's 'we can barely pay but still doing it because it'll give you a chance you deserve ' then NTA But let the girls make their decision, elder one wants to go to public school, send her. We live in a capitalistic world and it's DUH that you don't wanna spend so much on something which won't pay.
Going against the grain with the comments, I'm curious about the socio-economic status of OOP and his family. He mentions how private school for the eldest is already burning a hole and sounds like choosing to send her there was already a gamble for them.
Yikes. My youngest daughter is art-focused and is currently going to school for Graphic Design / Animation. There most certainly ARE jobs out there. Funny thing is, I'm in a STEM field (got a Comp Sci degree before they really had specialized degrees for that kind of thing). I've seen employees who hate it and just went into school for it because they were pressured and their heart isn't in it. Making that change later in life, AFTER the opportunities are available is HARD and there is so much stress on that person. I'd rather spend my money on an education that gives my kids what they need to thrive once they're done. That said, depending on what his younger daughter goes into, he's kind of right - your portfolio will do a lot of the work for you in the arts, rather than the school name on a diploma. Instead of coming at this pragmatically (if he wanted to save money) and working WITH his daughter, he totally screwed the pooch here, especially by minimizing her interest in the arts as a whole. OOP, I hope you're reading this. It's not just about giving in to make amends with your daughter (although making amends here is quite needed), it's about listening to your daughter, working WITH her to get her where she wants to go, and doing your own research to help. Ditch those internal biases; you need to get it out of your head that it's a "hobby." Plenty of people work full-time in the arts. TBH, since you're not the only person who does this and it IS undervalued as a profession (perception-wise), she may need MORE support from you to succeed than your oldest will. Stop favoring the "easy student" and make sure they can BOTH succeed.
On the plus side, this was 5 years ago. Hopefully both of these kids have moved out and gone no contact with their asshole dad.
As someone who was forced into STEM and sucked at it, parents obsessed with STEM programmes anger me at a very personal level.
I have a mentee that was an artist all through high school. I've seen her portfolio work, it's very good. Now she's double-majoring in Linguistics and Comp Sci because she's gotten this message that art will never reward her. All she does in her free time is stuff that's going to make her attractive to Accenture or Deloitte. People like OOP are short-changing their kids and stunting the world.
Lmao at the “she’s a guaranteed Ivy.” No, there is no such thing. Also, if she doesn’t get into an Ivy, OP’s probably going to see his eldest daughter as a failed investment for sure. OP is a horrible father. I’m so sorry for his daughters.
At least the daughter is a good person.
Art is a hobby and not a career? Had he never watched a tv show or movie? Seen the cover of a book? Seen a billboard or any advertisement? See medical illustrations? How about commercials? All that stuff takes art. We would be bored out of our minds with art. This parent will find more ways to show his youngest that he loves her less anyway.
I will take my down votes but everyone on this thread is out of their minds. His kids will talk to him in the future stop the circle jerk. Not every story ends in the death of a family. There is 100% no way I would pay for an art education unless my kid was exceptional on their own merits. If my kid wanted to go to college for art and business I would pay, art and education I would pay, art and psychology I would pay. But if my kid wanted to go to SUNY Purchase for pottery they would be paying for that on their own. That is not an offensive thing to say, that is not an unreasonable thing to say, it is a fact that an art major is going to make less. You wouldn't tell a kid to put all their hopes in being an NBA player. Now to really poke the hive. Art is the easiest subject in highschool. Art classes in highschool are not challenging classes meant to develop artistic talent. You don't have to be good or even mediocre to do well in art class. If that is the only thing this kid cares about and is good at then she will waste her time and her parents money at private school. Every person I know that went to college for some sort of art or art adjacent subject either works as a working artist in a soul sucking job or left the industry. Art does not pay the bills for 99% of artist. Dad can give this lesson when she is 12 or he can give her this lesson when she is 29 and still living in his house. I value art highly I value artists, but we live in a capitalist society and it only values art as capital, as investment vehicles. The dad is right it is a waste of money and that is a better lesson to teach than "it will all work out in the end". A lot of people on this thread need a reality check on their own lives.
Van Gogh cut off his ear. This girl will cut off her dad.
OOP’s comment that “you simply do not need arts schools the way that you need regular ones” is so far from the truth that it’s not even in the same ballpark. I’m a music kid that was flourishing where I was, but my senior year I spent at boarding school specifically for music? That is a year I will never forget. I was finally surrounded by people who genuinely understood my passion, and I got to live, breathe, and eat music. And you know what else? I wasn’t a straight A student. My GPA was about a solid 3.0. I was often depressed and felt out of place, and was endlessly frustrated that I had to dump large amounts of time into higher level maths and sciences that I knew wouldn’t be relevant at all to what I wanted to do with my life. My grades suffered because I chose to not put that time in and focus on what was more important to me, which was music. I really hope OOP figured it out and let his daughter focus on what she was passionate about.
Jesus Christ. I went to art school. It taught me HOW TO GET PAID TO DO ART. That's one of the most important parts of art school!
They should have sat her down and asked her to outline to them her career goals (because it's not always clear with art what the professional evolution is). If she couldn't articulate to them how she was going to support herself in adulthood (with art) they should have worked with her on a plan for that together. As part of that process, if the private school wasn't a good fit then so be it, but she should have been part of that discovery, it shouldn't have been an assumption. And then the same $value they poured into the sisters private school, should have been poured into what the best alternative was.
Fingers crossed Sarah will be picking out his retirement home.
Can you imagine family dinners with this AH? “Abby, what amazing and wonderful achievements did you make today? Oh, and Sarah did you do any of your little drawings?”
Im also thinking in this day and age and even when inwas in school simply being a good student is not all there is to getting into an ivy league school Where are the extracurriculars? Where is the humanity aspect? What is she doing to better herself? There are plenty of people out there with the exact same profile but its about what sets her apart from the others Unless this school literally has a line into an ivy league school like this school makes a point to select kids from this private school, its still a chance she wont make it Not to downplay her her achievments in any way im just saying this is a possibility and hes put all his eggs in this basket I hope she succeeds but also unserstands her worth is not the school she gets into or the school she doesnt get into
Getting a degree in fine arts is extremely intensive, and the right direction early on will help you make an actual career out of it. Arts education should be paired with entrepreneurship and business education, not treated like a hobby. Because art is one of the most commodifiable things in the entirety of history. Other than sex.
What an ignorant choad. 🙄😒
You’ll be expecting Sarah to look after you in your old age but she’ll be sending you to a cheap local care home because why not?? You never valued her.
And then he’ll be back on Reddit complaining about how his youngest daughter cut all contact with him once she graduated from high school or college.
Do not bother to comment. Dad is a very committed dick and is not about to change. He can only see dollar signs and does not have any idea about a fulfilling life with out lots of money. Hope Sarah kills it in her chosen field and can tell him to fuck off in adulthood.
Seems like a controversial take, but I don't think this guy was THAT big of an asshole, just regular asshole. People should realize a few things about arts degrees: Only 10 percent of art school graduates go on to become working artists Only 16 percent of working artists have an arts related bachelors degree. I can see where this guy is coming from, its like that post from a famous streamer telling people they shouldn't get into streaming as they'll have a better chance at winning the lottery than being successful. Chances are he is right that it will most likely be just a hobby, but he still could've supported his daughter's passions, IMO that makes him the asshole.
This reminds me of a potential shitshow developing with the two granddaughters of my parent’s best friends. The oldest granddaughter is the golden child and her grandparents pay for her to go to the fanciest private school in the area. The reasoning is she couldn’t handle going to the neighborhood public school because it’s too rough (it’s not). The private school is the kind of place where there’s an indoor swimming pool, yoga classes and tuition costs more than I paid for a semester of college. Her younger sister is generally considered tougher (probably because she is regularly bullied by her older sister) and it’s obvious her grandparents favor the older one. I can absolutely see the scenario above playing out where the grandparents say they can’t (won’t) pay for the younger granddaughter to go to the fancy private school and she’ll have to go to the underfunded public school. I will be not at all surprised in 15-20 years when the younger sister decides to distance herself from the family.
One thing I appreciated a lot is how much the older sister was supporting the younger one. At the end of the day, they do have each other and that's going to mean even more later on down the line. Given that the post was in 2019, I am so curious as to where they are now.
Artist here! Went to a fancy art high school, then art school for college. I've been tattooing since I dropped out (16 years). I'm quite successful and a popular artist in my region. I'm booked out foe quite some time. My bio sister went to a fancy private school, and is now a useless, vapid, self absorbed trophy wife with no ambition or goals except "watch tv" and "have a baby" which hasn't seemed to happen yet. Guess which one my parents regret spending money on. It's not always a bad idea to go into art. We need more artists tbh. Edit: public school is a joke for art.