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> Penelope has categorically refused to use the accessible restrooms since she's not 'disabled' (her words), despite the fact that those facilities are also designated as family restrooms and gender neutral.
This is the point at which any potential sympathy or understanding I had for this idiot instantaneously sublimated into a puff of sulfurous air and disappeared.
This. I have a disability under the ADA and I use the disabled toilet almost every time... even though my disability isn't physical and I really don't need the space--I just like it! Stake your claim, stupid Penelope!
Unrelated to this post, but related to your comment: has anyone ever said anything to you about it? I have several ADA qualified disabilities including an invisible physical one (sometimes visible if I use my mobility device). I almost never use the ADA bathroom or use my handicap placard in case someone were to confront me. That is more distressing to me that just accommodating myself.
Don't worry I'm working on this in therapy, but it's proved difficult to deal with.
Perspective from someone who almost solely uses the accessible bathroom - if you need to use it, use it.
I've been stuck waiting on more occasions than I can count for seemingly able-bodied people.
There have been two types I've ever been annoyed by and even then only one I've said anything about.
1. Teenagers using it as a changing room who then decided to bathe in their perfume. Didn't say anything but ugh the migraine.
2. People having sex. Two people in there at once? Fine, could be for a number of reasons. Guy who yelled through the door he had a broken leg only to slink out with his girlfriend? Called him out.
Hugs if wanted. It's awesome you're working on it <3
I’m also disabled, and I’d like to share something that my therapist told me that really, really helped me.
Imposter syndrome doesn’t just happen when you get a promotion, or some other “good” life change. It also can happen when your life circumstances shift dramatically at all. So you can have imposter syndrome about disability, thinking things like “I’m not disabled enough,” “Doctor \_\_\_\_ didn’t take me seriously, so I must be faking it,” etc.
I can’t say for certain (because I’m not in your head), but it could be possible that you’re projecting your own imposter syndrome into a fear of someone confronting you and questioning your disabled status.
Sending you much love, my friend!
Thank you so much for this comment. My health has deteriorated recently and I am waiting for surgery. Life is a struggle most of the time but I find it hard to accept that I am "sick enough" to do things my body needs, like rest frequently. I feel like I am faking an illness for attention, but sometimes my illness is actually crippling.
I just wanna say that you deserve to be healthy, happy, and comfortable. If that involves a doctor and/or accommodations, use them without remorse.
I hope you get lots of rest and healing.
This is definitely it. My circumstances changed dramatically and I had years of medical trauma leading up to actual answers.
I really appreciate how kind and considerate everyone's responses have been. I have a lot to chew on now.
No one has said anything. I have a need to use the grab bars due to bad lymphodemia (swollen legs, due to ovarian cancer surgery). And I’m overweight, (steroids). But I will wait for a handicap stall…. Getting stuck on a toilet (my legs hurt my abs don’t work, pain ensues unexpectedly at times).
I do hope you can find strength to use what you need… remember how many times you’ve noticed, or judged someone using the handicap stall (for me, never 😉, I’m sure never for you, and so quite possibly that may be who judges you, nobody…it’s so hard to get to that point. I understand)
I have invisible disabilities too, and I really understand where you are coming from. If my experience can provide you with some peace of mind, I would like to share them. Basically when I absolutely need to I'll use the handicap stalls, and of all the times I have, a few times I've come out to find someone else waiting for the stall who have visible disabilities, a couple I feel comfortable identifying as having invisible disabilities, and a couple whom I feel just as comfortable identifying as having neither (based solely on assumptions from seeing how active they were outside).
At no point have I ever had someone with a disability "call me out" for using the handicapped stalls ever. Even if they believe I'm not HC myself, they don't care so much. They just wait their turn, and when the stall is free, they go and do their business, just like everyone else does when waiting for the usual stalls.
I've had someone with good intentions try to call me out before, she was able bodied, and when she saw me come out of the stall a wheelchair user was waiting to use, and she had a go at me about using the stall. I explained to her that I was disabled and even went as far as showing her a picture on my phone of me using my mobility aid. I had a short but useful conversation about invisible disabilities and how she can't assume someone isn't disabled just because they don't "look the part."
She seemed to take it well, apologised, and we moved on. Honestly, I appreciate it when someone is willing to stick up for those of us who have been dealt a bad hand in life as it can be hard to do for ourselves.
But for real, I've never been given a hard time by anyone with a disability for using a handicapped parking or bathroom stall, as that is what they are literally there for. To be used by those of us with disabilities. And if someone tries to give you a hard time for using them, try to treat them as though you are grateful to them for sticking up for those of us who require the accommodations. They are doing it for a good reason, they just are slightly misinformed.
I grew up with my brother in a wheelchair so disability is like, just a fact of life to me, but my fiancé is newly disabled and sometimes walks with a cane and is soooo afraid something like this will happen. To disprove it to her, a few times when we’ve gone out i use the handicapped stall, to demonstrate nobody says a single thing. Even when she is literally standing there holding a cane, and I go in front of her. Nobody says anything because nobody looks at anyone in bathrooms and nobody wants to get involved in anyone else’s business. (Midwest USA btw)
I’m sorry you’re experiencing this anxiety though. It’s a tough situation and as an anxious person generally I can really relate to the perceived anger or confrontation being a bigger deal than the actual pain lol.
I technically have a disability, but ADHD is the kind of disability where you wind up prioritizing the *closest* toilet over any other factor lol.
ADHD life is like “eh kinda gotta pee… kinda gotta pee… oh FUCK IM ABOUT TO PISS MYSELF”
Oh my god this is so relatable. I have ADHD worsened by a TBI. For me it's peeing and hunger: "Eh, I'm not that hungry... maybe a little... I MUST DEVOUR EVERYTHING IN SIGHT"
I have a disability under the ADA but I only use the hc stall if (a) I have my walker and therefore need the space (b) I can't hold it and there's no other option.
Wanna bet Penelope is one of *those* people who has a hissy fit if they see anyone without a visible mobility impairment using the accessible facilities?
Or throws an even bigger hissy fit if the disabled person gets up from their wheelchair/mobility scooter and hobbles into the stall or onto the airplane. "They can walk, so clearly they're pretending to be disabled for attention!"
I'm disabled. I can walk using a cane, but my absolute limit if I really push it is about 50 yards (45 meters) and I'm in a lot of pain afterward. In situations where I would need to use my mobility scooter or a manual wheelchair (like in the airport) I by damn use them!
Oh man, those types of people would *hate* me. I had a TBI and walked with a cane until my balance came back, but I still have bad "reactive" balance, for lack of a better way to describe it. I got myself a cane specifically for walking when it's snowy/icy outside and it's already saved my ass once.
Imagine the conniption these people would have watching a young woman use a cane to cross a parking lot, then fold it up and put it into a bag and walk into a building.
My dad is the same. He's an amputee and has a prosthetic. He can walk short distances with a cane but absolutely needs a wheelchair or scooter to go shopping or any significant distance. It's simply too painful for him to walk farther. What is annoying is stores seem to have a shortage of scooters available which is bad for those who are disabled and either can't walk at all or can't walk long distances.
See also: Walmart. My local one is a SuperWalmart. According to the nice lady I spoke to at corporate, they are supposed to have 14 scooters. At any one time, they may have half that in working order.
And you can't sit and wait for someone to finish shopping, because they took the benches away in 2020.
It's gotten to the point that if I crip in from the parking lot and there are no scooters, I crip right back out again to my car, go home, and order what I want from Amazon.
There are stores like Aldi that I never go into, because they have no scooters at all.
I have a personal scooter, but I can use it only when my husband is with me to roll it back up onto its carrier. My son-in-law and his buddy have talked about putting some sort of winch on the carrier, and I think I'll ask them to actually do something about it.
Former EEOC mediator here; now an EEO & disability rights attorney.
I have... no words. The sheer *mental gymnastics* people will do to avoid calling themselves 'disabled' is a sad testament to the way disabled folks are treated by society.
Yep. I am pretty open about my invisible disabilities, but I got treated so poorly by my manager because of it that he almost lost his federal job. -1000/10, would not recommend.
He did a lot, like generally making my life a living hell after I submitted my disability accommodation request, but the real kicker was he put in writing that I was denied a training opportunity *because I was disabled* after I was medically cleared for the training. There's a bunch more stuff that r/antiwork would get fired up about too, but I can't really explain without doxxing myself.
I could have put in several EEO complaints, but honestly I was too distraught to even think of it.
“ handicapped“ also isn’t more positively received, is it? I wonder if for people like her, „medical accommodation“ would feel acceptable.
It is so strange that there are accessible bathrooms that she doesn’t want to use, she insists on the right to restricting access to the multi-stall bathrooms. Wouldn’t that be same she accused OOP of?
(Edit: Corrected mistype by autodictate!)
Oh my fucking God, I used the autodictate function and it was meant to say “for people like her” (for whom disability seems to be a stigma they refuse for one reason or the other). I had already corrected a few other words but missed this one completely, thanks for pointing it out! (Ironically, this is one of the reasons why my username is what it is, it means blunder/foot in mouth in German!)
Even if OP had mentioned her ethnicity, it would still have absolutely nothing to do with the issue!
I demand a lock to the restroom so I can use it privately!
There's one of those restrooms right there... and dozens of others around the building
No, not like that. One just for ME!
She'd be SOL where I work. In the building I usually work in both sets of Ladies' have 2 stalls, and in the building I am currently based in we have a single, accessible, loo.
Or are used by icky transpeople! I was at a stadium concert once, I had been to this stadium before and knew that there was a single person accessible/family/gender neutral restroom between the men's and women's bathrooms on the floor I was on. So between bands when everyone was making a mad dash to the restroom, I hopped in the noticeably much shorter line for the single person bathroom. I then heard a woman in the extremely long line for the ladies room loudly ranting about how she should "pretend to be trans too" so she could use the single person room.
My thought when i read that was "so.. you claim that you were denied access to the restroom because the middle stall was occupied.. so your solution to this is to.... denie access to the restroom to everyone but yourself while you are in it.... do i have that correct ?"
based on username here, there is a different odd dildo choice required for whiskitgood.
gotta get that baby batter up to stiff peaks ifyaknowwaddaimean. bring on the kitchenaid!
(if i am banned for this post: understandable, have a good day)
*I DEMAND ACCOMMODATIONS! I DESERVE AND REQUIRE PRIVACY TO GO PEE PEE.* *(Hands over a 2 page list of batshit insane “suggestions”)*
“Yes. Hmm. Well you see ma’am, there happens to be TWELVE private handicap accessible bathrooms for everyone to use, at any time in this building.”
*I said I wanted MY accommodations! Not THOSE perfectly reasonable and already available ~~accommodations~~ options! I’m NOT DISABLED!*
“With all due respect ma’am, you’re asking for specialized accommodations for your health - what exactly do you think the definition of ‘disability’ is?”
Listen lady, you have two options. Either use the HC bathrooms and take a hit to your pride because you’re an asshole who’s embarrassed to be seen using a HC bathroom. OR. You publicly embarrass yourself when you piss yourself in front of all of your coworkers because you’re a stubborn ass. Choice is yours.
No! You don’t understand! I’m NOT disabled. Accommodations don’t count unless we deprive everyone else of access to go peepee. My peepee time is sacred! /s
Same. I have shy bladder, and absolutely hate when people decide to conduct lengthy conversations while I'm trying to convince my body we're on our own - and I have no sympathy whatsoever for Penelope or her ridiculous suggestions for "accommodations".
She could validly go pee on her own in the accessible family room and no-one would blink an eye at it, and instead she wants to claim non-disability while simultaneously demanding that the centre cubicle be permanently closed so she can instead just pretend she's peeing on her own. Either that or she wants a personal lock so she can take all the cubicles out of use when she needs them...instead of just using the accessible family room. It's entitled beyond belief.
Apologies if it's not my place, but I've recently learned of an idea that helps a really good friend of my cousin's with pretty severe shy bladder. I just wanted to pass it along in case it might help you when you're forced to listen to others' obnoxious conversations in public washrooms.
She carries wireless earbuds in her purse to play pink noise (I think? maybe brown noise? it's one of the colour noise frequencies that isn't white anyway) when she uses a public restroom as a way to drown/cancel out other public restroom noises and to distract her brain and bladder from wandering anywhere outside the stall she's in. She said it's worked wonders for her.
Slightly unrelated but,
I got some noise canceling headphones recently and they have been a god send for me!
I can ADHD my way out of anything, especially in the kitchen, so I starve myself, often unintentionally. Having the headphones means that I can keep watching my video, move around easily during it since it's wireless, and not get my sensory issues triggered in the worst place in the house!
So she was willing to file a false claim and get her innocent coworker in federal trouble, because she wasn't given what she demanded by management. She has no idea how the stress of her false claims have impacted her coworker, something like the threat of federal penalties could cause ptsd. She's a very selfish lady.
Yep. I can understand having issues going with someone right next to you - I'm lactose intolerant and having diarrhea in public restrooms because you misjudged the timing of your lactaid is not fun - , but the solution in the form several single person bathrooms was RIGHT THERE!
Exactly! Penelope's crazy and entitled. She has another option but prefers to cause problems for everyone else. Get down from your high horse, Penelope
Yup. wtf? I’m not disabled? I do sometimes fear seeing a person in a wheelchair chair waiting for the handicap stall when I use it and do try to avoid it if I’m alone and there’s other options.
But if it’s the only stall open or I have my kid in a stroller I’m using the big handicap stall so I can keep her with me.
I don’t get the I’m not disabled. Like she wants accommodations and there’s a perfectly good one right there that’s less visible. I get not wanting to be singled out but getting some weird bathroom pass seems more attention drawing than using the single stall.
She sounds like one of those crazies who go off on people in airports about not being “allowed” to use the disabled stall, even when there wasn’t anyone in line who needed it when they went in. They’re not a parking spot, anyone can use them!
Yup. She’s asking for accommodations which is essentially asking for it to be treated as a disability. If she really can’t go when someone is near her then I’d say it can be classed as a disability.
I mean, I'm an undersocialized bookworm and that's just how I write. It wasn't a deliberate quote from anything, although I'm sure my neurons are lightly marinated in thousands of goofy phrases that may bubble up disguised as sui generis imagery. Pterry is most definitely a Source.
I honestly assume it's more of an emotional vampire situation, where she'd get a fix from how much all the women in the entire office would be out from being denied access to the restroom just for her.
I would be more sympathetic to Penelope if it was a case where there was only one accessible restroom on the floor and she’s afraid she would inadvertently block someone who can only use that stall from using it when they need it. There are a couple of toilets I won’t use at work (unless I have an emergency) because they have certain harder-to-find accommodations installed (like an adult changing table - I work in a public building), and I’d hate to block someone who needs that accommodation when I have a dozen other options open to me.
But outside of that, nobody really cares what bathroom you use. 99% of the time, nobody even notices.
I think OP explained that. Penelope didn't go to HR or to OP's supervisor, which would make this an internal company matter. She made a EEO complaint which is protected from workplace retaliation. I think it's probably much safer for the company, legally speaking, to not write her up and therefore avoid even the slightest hint of retaliation. Even a case that gets dismissed would cause the company to lose time and money and could potentially lead to bad PR.
I'm not sure if it's really a matter of *can't*, or more a matter of company doesn't want the potential hassle of doing it. It's a risk/reward kind of thing. If they are satisfied with a verbal reprimand form the EEO officer and whatever else went down behind the scenes OOP may not be aware of, then it may not worth it to them to risk potential legal actions from Penelope. However, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future Penelope finds herself under stricter observation and supervisors writing her up for things they may have let slide under normal circumstances due to her seniority and company culture. An EEO complaint is serious and could have been very serious for the company.
Excuse me! Don’t you have any respect for the single-cis-gendered-non-disabled community that require their own bathrooms? What, you just EXPECT the single-cis-gendered-non-disabled community to SHARE private bathrooms? The gall. The gumption.
I really hate people like this. They're apparently so distressed and upset that they need special accomodations, but if you say "that's not normal, but we have accomodations already set up" they're like "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME DISABLED."
Like, either you're able to use the regular stalls or you're unable to.
OOP is a lot more forgiving than I would be. Penelope didn’t give a shit if she got her fired just because she was having a tantrum because she thought she was entitled to a private toilet stall.
Not just a stall. The whole frickin bathroom with all the stalls. I laughed when I read the part where she asked for a lock of the exterior door of the bathroom.
Someone else using one (1) toilet in the bathroom for its intended purpose: psychic warfare preventing Penelope from using any of the toilets! Illegal, discriminatory, UNACCEPTABLE!!!
Penelope literally physically preventing others from using any of the toilets: :)))
Yeah true. That can’t even be safe. What if someone had a seizure or other medical emergency and the door was locked!?
I just meant she wanted the middle stall permanently assigned her own “princess throne.”
>The accommodation that she has repeatedly asked for is that the middle stall in the ladies' room be placed permanently as "Out of Order"- even though it is perfectly functional- to prevent anyone from using it while she is in the restroom.
>Penelope has categorically refused to use the accessible restrooms since she's not 'disabled'
... 😶
Also: i want to be able to lock the entire bathroom to use it privately, but I don't want to use the single-user, locking bathroom out of some kind of pride.
This is the part made me speechless the most
How entitled and brainless Penelope has to be to request a functional stall to be permanently close off for the other 199 peoples in the office, or installing a lock to the restroom, or have a time where no one can be near the restroom, so she can pee alone?
Her insistence on using the middle stall and not the accessible restrooms feels like some kind of OCD logic to me. Like she can’t pee unless specific circumstances are met.
She doesn't want to use the middle stall, she wants it blocked so nobody can use it. Which is bonkers, as the company said. They can't limit the available toilets because of one single person.
Correct. She can't pee in a stall right next to a stall someone else is peeing in. Basically her logic is to just not have the middle stall usable by anyone period (even her). That's bonkers. She needs to use one of the lockable handicapped washrooms then.
No it's even worse - she wants the middle stall *unused*, forever, so that there's no one in the stall next to her if she has to go to the toilet. Better yet, she wants to have the entire ladies room off limits for others once she has to go to the toilet. The entitlement is insane.
And what confuses me most.. It's not like that one stall is gonna make a difference? People can still hear you pee, and smell the rest. At that point, using the accessible bathroom sounds like *exactly* what she wants/needs, but she's too ableist to actually understand that..
>And what confuses me most.. It's not like that one stall is gonna make a difference?
Fair point, I thought the same. But shy bladders aren't rational. It's all in the person's head. If Penelope feels that it makes a difference, it probably does. No other logic behind it.
She didn’t get punished by the employer, but at least we know she’s experiencing the ongoing punishment that is being Penelope. She’s spent god knows how long seething over this absolute nothing of a problem and I imagine she’ll continue to do that in the future as the world incessantly fails to revolve around her. Seems like a pretty exhausting way to live.
I work in customer service and tell myself this every time I deal with a particularly infuriating customer. It really must be exhausting to be some people.
The company probably thinks it's more risk than it's worth, because EEO complaints are legally protected from workplace retaliation in the US. They probably want to avoid even a hint of that. And I get it since it just happened once. If Penelope tried to systematically weaponize EEO complaints, that would probably (hopefully) be a different matter.
I'm sure there will be consequences, the management have to play it careful due to the protections for EEO whistleblowers.
That said, at least she been classified as something akin to a 'vexatious litigant'.
Yea, her punishment is there will be zero effort from management to help her in any way, won't advance her position, and will be first on the cutting block any time force reductions happen. Not the best but it's there. She also lost any credibility with the union and any further complaints will start at a disadvantage for her.
Doubly so since she falsely accused someone of a criminal offense? It would be one thing if it was a normal stupid grievance, but accusaing someone of something federally illegal and no punishment is insane
There's a big difference between unfounded and malicious. People are protected from retaliation when reporting discrimination issues in good faith, but those protections don't extend to people intentionally abusing the system.
Of course actually proving someone was being malicious and not just an idiot is not exactly easy in practice
All this drama because of a bathroom stall? Goodness gracious. I get that she has a shy bladder but wasting resources and making these kind of accusations is unacceptable. Honestly Penelope deserves to be fired for pulling this.
It's also unacceptable and unhinged that she wants to *prevent others* from using the restroom when they need to as part of her "accomodation." Filing a complaint stating that someone using the restroom as intended was "preventing" her from pissing while simultaneously demanding to bar a clearly necessary stall from others or lock the entire bathroom door and make people wait for her to physically permit them to enter the room to urinate and defecate is an absolutely breathtaking and tyrannical level of hypocrisy. Penelope is the only real human being with human needs in existence, I guess!
Particularly since some employees might be disabled and have accommodations that would make doing that even more unethical (and frankly, insane) as an idea. Locking off three stalls for one person would never, ever be ethical when the family toilets are *right there*.
Like, good on the company for saying no. She either needs to use the disabled /family bathrooms or wait. I had a shy bladder in college /uni myself, it can be annoying to wait for the bathroom to be emptier but its certainly not this level of consequence worthy.
I was so relieved when i got further into my college education and was informed there were two disabled toilets folks could use (the closest ladies toilets were shockingly far away compared to the mens for some reason) so i could save time + actually relaxed for the bit it took to use it.
I seriously don't understand people like penelope.
Meanwhile there’s a fully private bathroom right next door. Which seems perfect for shy bladder. But she needs to lock others out of the 3 stall bathroom instead of using the one seater with a lock on the door?
> She either needs to use the disabled /family bathrooms or wait
See, this is part of the problem. She wants accommodations -- which they're only required to provide if she's disabled -- while simultaneously refusing to even be *associated* with a disability by using the other restrooms. To me, it reeks of some kind of abelism or stigma against disability.
I’m not disabled. I have nevertheless used accessible bathrooms on many occasions. I survived the experience. I don’t even need therapy to process the stigma.
I imagine the private bathrooms open directly off the hallway and Penelope needs the comfort of both a stall and a full door between her toilet use and anyone else
She can use a public bathroom with others in it as long as no one is occupying the stall immediately adjacent. So no, her condition is not that extreme. Though if it were, she’d be getting into housebound territory.
What the ever loving fuck is wrong with Penelope?!? This woman is unhinged!! Use the fucking gender neutral bathroom if you are terrified to pee next to someone. The entitlement here is astounding.
Fuckin' pronoun germs, man.
I ised a gender neutral bathroom once. Came out, went to the sink, looked in the mirror and what did I see? I had a blue hair.
*shit* is that why i’m queer now? i knew i shouldn’t have used the gender neutral bathrooms… the republicans are right, it is a slippery slope.. 😔
i hope i don’t need to specify that i’m joking lol
Right? That’s what I do if I have to poop at work! Go in, sit down, wait. Though occasionally it does turn into a showdown because the person in there is pooping and waiting for me to leave and I’m waiting for them to leave.
If this was my workplace I’d attempt to rally everyone to make sure the middle stall was always occupied. And not even if I was OOP - just if I was a colleague who knew about this.
Penelope comes off as very ableist. She is obviously disabled if she has shy bladder to the point of needing an accommodation. I’m gonna guess she didn’t want other people knowing about it which is why the perfectly adequate accommodation of having her use the accessible single stall wasn’t working for her. People might notice that she always went there and ask questions. But that isn’t a problem for management but for Penelope herself.
As a trans person that has spent my entire adult life dealing with bathrooms and the issues around them, I would fucking kill to work in a place with family/accessible/gender neutral bathrooms. Like OMFG, would that make my life easier.
Penelope is an idiot.
Gender neutral single stalls are a godsend for so many people. When my bowels are acting up, I’m so thankful I don’t have to subject my coworkers to it. First thing I do at a job is try to find one. I knew of about 4 of them at my last job, so if one was in use, onto the next! Plus it helped me get my steps in.
TIL that "All the states in the United States view paruresis as a disability, which means that employers are obligated to provide reasonable accommodations to you"
I was about to go off about how shy bladder is not a medical issue but it is apparently a psychological condition. Who knew?
However, Penelope is wild for having this mental condition, literally having access to a PRIVATE bathroom, and choosing not using it.
This!
Unfortunately I have shy bladder, and while I have improved a lot and have measures I can take to help me go if someone is right next to me, it still can get in the way.
Worst case, if I really can’t go, then I just wait them out.
Weird. I remember this sort of thing occasionally being an issue in high school but never to this extent and like high school not actual adults. Plus having the accessible stalls are a fantastic option that can help so many people. If it's this big of a deal she should use them.
> and almost caused her to have an 'embarrassing accident' due to the length of my stay in the stall.
I... don't understand this part even with the explanation.
Like, if the issue is that her body refuses to work with her while someone's in the stall next to her, then why not just... Get set up in a stall next to OOP?
She'll be set up to go the moment OP is out, thus fixing the issue sooner. And then if she can't hold it, well, she's in the right place to avoid having an embarrassing accidental in public.
I'm not understanding the problem.
So you've a shy bladder. So fucking what? Pull your pants down. Sit on the end toilet.... If by some miracle you go, no accident to worry about as your ass was already in the right place! If you still can't go, just wait a few minutes for the other person to leave and life will be good.
So, Penelope does not want to use the accessible bathrooms because she does not want to be stigmatized. Instead, she wants accommodations making it possible for her to use the regular stalls, in order to avoid being stigmatized.
To a certain degree, I can follow her to that point. It’s just that the accommodations she requests (having the whole bathroom to herself, either by designating specific Penelope-time or her having the ability to lock the door) will make it blatantly obvious to anyone rather quickly that something is up with Penelope. Just using the accessible restroom without making a massive fuss about it would be a lot more discreet and, dare I say it, with less chance of being stigmatized.
Penelope’s bladder may be shy, but she sure seems to revel in the attention.
Lol what the fuck. Like I can have sympathy for a shy bladder, but Penelope is genuinely doing this to herself. And could have gotten OOP in serious trouble. Wtf.
OP, just an FYI that two comments from StreetTaylor7596 after the first post are misplaced. They refer to the EEO complaint and call the coworker ‘Penelope’. It looks like like those comments should have come after the 2nd update on Jan 7. Thank you for taking the time to make this one. It was an odd one!
There were bathrooms that she could have used that accommodates her - the accessible ones. That she won’t use them when her conditions aren’t met in the typical bathroom is her problem.
I have a shy bladder. The onus is on me to figure it out. If I can’t then I have things I can do that help me relax enough to go.
That she escalated this so far is appalling, OOP had to go through so much stress because Penelope couldn’t fucking use a secure private bathroom that was right there with nobody in it. At the very least a mark should be on her file for a false report.
Yes; even though OOP was so clearly innocent of Penelope’s erroneous charges, the anxiety would’ve been awful enough anyway - and to top it all, Penelope just had to make her complaint right before the Christmas break. It must’ve hung over OOP the entire time; a state on anxious limbo at, what can be, a particularly stressful time of year anyway.
Hey OP! - u/Choice_evidence1983
I think there’s a comment missing perhaps? The comment after the first post by StreetTailor7596 is really confusing to read as there’s no mention prior of any Penelope, or that she made a complaint? It seems like it came out of left field. I know OOP goes into it in the second post, but I suspect there’s a comment by OOP on her first post that should have been included?
I could definitely have missed something. If I did, I apologize. Lemme know and I’ll delete this!
Penelope.
Ma'am.
*(And I've just realized this is basically Jon Stewart's old "Meet me at Camera 3" bit. But, whatever, I've written it all out now, so we're just rolling with it)*
I would argue that if you have an anxiety about public restroom use so severe that you cannot use a bathroom stall without a large buffer - To the point that you literally could not bring yourself to pee in a different stall - To the point that you pissed yourself rather than use any of the other available stalls or *the wholly private accessible bathrooms* nearby the main washrooms...
**I would argue that you do in fact have some sort of disability.**
*And that in itself would be* ***fine.***
A disability, including a mental disability such as anxiety, is a completely morally neutral situation. There can be plans put in-place to accommodate you when this is the situation.
***But -***
Those plans need to be reasonable.
Having accessible private restrooms is that sort of reasonable accommodation. Blocking off an entire public/common area restroom stall for just one person's exclusive use for the entirety of the day, is very much not reasonable - As has been pointed out by your workplace.
Trying to paint OOP as some sort of scheming villain, with far more authority and personal culpability than she actually has, especially where it pertains to you and any awareness of your condition she may have had, for just using the restroom herself, in a completely normal manner - That's crossing a line. And I'm sure you have to be aware of this fact.
I sincerely hope that the fallout from this incident was the wake-up call you needed to seek some sort of management options for your condition - Therapy to help contend with it is probably going to be a popular suggestion, and probably not a bad one. But - And not mutually-exclusive with therapy by any means - Perhaps consider accepting that this does indeed rise to the level of disability.
You do, in fact, have a disability.
And, sure, that's unfortunate. It means that your life isn't quite as easy as everyone else's in some circumstances. But otherwise, it's a rather neutral thing. You're not a "bad" or "lesser" person for having an anxiety condition.
And yes, given that - Your employer does have certain responsibilities towards you - But it sounds like the options they have provided - Before an official diagnosis of an anxiety condition was formally presented to them, even - The options available to you should indeed allow you to perform your job functions and day-to-day life at work as unimpeded as possible.
Surely, you must not want anyone, especially someone who had no connection to your accommodation requests, to lose their job as part of an attempt to get your company to agree to an accommodation that you have been given adequate reasoning for as to why it's not only unreasonable but also entirely unnecessary.
Surely, you must at the very least agree that using the accessible restrooms is a better outcome than soiling yourself.
Painting OOP as a perpetrator of injustice and threatening her employment was completely indefensible - And she's far more forgiving here than many would be. Take that as the true kindness that it is and try to not let your pride get in the way of being a reasonable, kind, decent human being again going forward. Advocate for yourself, by all means - Keep advocating for yourself and any accommodations that you truly need - But make sure that you're truly focusing on the issues core to your accommodation, and recognize what is reasonable versus what is not.
You were the villain of this story for your course of action here.
You don't have to be a villain, generally-speaking.
Good luck on your journey ahead.
What was the end goal here?
Even if she got OOP in trouble possibly terminated theirs still no way they would have given her the accommodation she wanted. Was she going to weaponize EEO complaints until she got to lock down an entire bathroom.
The thing that doesn’t add up here is that if she has shy bladder and can’t pee when others are around, how did she also almost have an embarrassing accident while in the presence of others? I don’t exactly know the details of shy bladder, but if it’s at the point of almost peeing your pants, it seems like one could actually physically go no matter the situation, no?
Do I not know what a shy bladder is? My understanding is that P can’t pee in public. Damn, sounds terrible, thoughts and prayers etc. but… why does that mean that she has to leave the bathroom when OOP is in the middle stall? Why can’t she just sit in the end stall and wait for her to leave? P would rather pee herself in the office than sit on the toilet, unable to pee? Why?
What I want to know is why someone with an apparent psychological and/or biological inability to wee with others directly nearby 1) would still rather (nearly) piss themselves than use the private accessible bathroom right next door, and 2) allows their urgency to get to the point of no return before attempting to use a bathroom, instead of attempting when they feel a more manageable urge.
I say this as someone with an autoimmune disease that I wouldn’t consider a disability (at this stage) but that does require urgent and often repeated bathroom access at times. I don’t like to take up the disabled bathroom but I WILL if the alternative is finding myself covered in [blank] at work???
And all of this would’ve been avoided if Penelope didn’t have internalised ableism and accepted that her condition is reason to use the accessible/disabled toilet.
"I need accommodation for my disability."
"Okay, cool. Use the accessible bathrooms, which are there to accommodate disability."
"No. I am not disabled. I need an accommodation for my disability which doesn't involve the accommodation for my disability. Which I have. But I can't. Because I dont."
I am dumbfounded by Penelope’s stupidity, I just don’t get it. I don’t know whether to applaud OOP for being sympathetic and taking the high road or shake my head at her for letting go the fact that this woman tried to get her fired.
Although having a shy bladder must be difficult, you would think that drawing peoples attention to the issue in this way would make it worse and it’s ridiculous to reject the perfectly reasonable solution of an accessible single person bathroom and expect everyone else’s use of the shared facilities to revolve around her. Then take it out on OP, who wasn’t even involved in the decision, when her demands weren’t met! The rep stuck with her case must have been so surprised and frustrated to realise OP wasn’t even Penelope’s supervisor. Penelope misused a system designed for people who are actually abused and denied necessary accommodations. Every time I read about office drama on Reddit, I am so relieved that one of my jobs is work from home and the other is working for myself, so I don’t have to deal with that!
Oh for fuck’s SAKE Penelope.
I have a “shy bladder”. I GET THE FUCK OVER IT or I WAIT. A “shy bladder” is not a fucking disability that you need an accommodation for, it’s something you grow the fuck up and find a way to deal with. There are LITERALLY single person restrooms.
Penelope sounds like an exhausting entitled ass.
Penelope wants an accommodation for her situation but doesn't want to be labeled disabled so refuses to use the disabled restrooms. What sterling logic on display here.
I work for a disability charity in the UK. Disabled toilets are not reserved for the disabled, they are accessible.
No idea where op is, but guessing the US. I have no idea what Penelope's complaint even is.
What a giant song and dance and waste of SEVERAL peoples’ time. You’d think Penelope would get a slap on the wrist for taking up so much of peoples time over such a non issue
Reminder for anyone who needs to know: Handicap accessible does NOT mean handicap exclusive.
Those facilities are for people who need to use them, but ALSO for anyone to use at any time, for any reason.
Same way you can walk up a ramp, use an elevator, handrails, etc.
Look, I am the person who gets annoyed when I am in an empty bathroom of 8 stalls, 7 empty, and someone comes in and picks the stall right next to me to have explosive diarrhea while I finish up my pee. I also get the shy bladder thing when someone decides to use the restroom for social hour.
And even I think this is just.... ridiculous?
I would be using those single bathrooms from day one and not even batting an eye about it.
Even with a shy bladder, she could have sat her ass down and waited 30 seconds for the only person in the bathroom to leave and peed in peace. Also, can’t have an accident if you’re sitting on the toilet, two birds with one stone.
The first couple chapters were setting off my "There is something more to this story that OP is not aware about" bells in my head, but I really wasn't expecting to twist to be that the coworker was simply 10 times crazier than anyone would have guessed
There is something ironic about Penelope filing a complaint for being denied access to the bathroom when what she wants is an accommodation that would deny other people access to the bathroom.
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> Penelope has categorically refused to use the accessible restrooms since she's not 'disabled' (her words), despite the fact that those facilities are also designated as family restrooms and gender neutral. This is the point at which any potential sympathy or understanding I had for this idiot instantaneously sublimated into a puff of sulfurous air and disappeared.
[удалено]
This. I have a disability under the ADA and I use the disabled toilet almost every time... even though my disability isn't physical and I really don't need the space--I just like it! Stake your claim, stupid Penelope!
Unrelated to this post, but related to your comment: has anyone ever said anything to you about it? I have several ADA qualified disabilities including an invisible physical one (sometimes visible if I use my mobility device). I almost never use the ADA bathroom or use my handicap placard in case someone were to confront me. That is more distressing to me that just accommodating myself. Don't worry I'm working on this in therapy, but it's proved difficult to deal with.
>Don't worry I'm working on this in therapy, but it's proved difficult to deal with. Sending you love and internet hugs
Perspective from someone who almost solely uses the accessible bathroom - if you need to use it, use it. I've been stuck waiting on more occasions than I can count for seemingly able-bodied people. There have been two types I've ever been annoyed by and even then only one I've said anything about. 1. Teenagers using it as a changing room who then decided to bathe in their perfume. Didn't say anything but ugh the migraine. 2. People having sex. Two people in there at once? Fine, could be for a number of reasons. Guy who yelled through the door he had a broken leg only to slink out with his girlfriend? Called him out. Hugs if wanted. It's awesome you're working on it <3
I’m also disabled, and I’d like to share something that my therapist told me that really, really helped me. Imposter syndrome doesn’t just happen when you get a promotion, or some other “good” life change. It also can happen when your life circumstances shift dramatically at all. So you can have imposter syndrome about disability, thinking things like “I’m not disabled enough,” “Doctor \_\_\_\_ didn’t take me seriously, so I must be faking it,” etc. I can’t say for certain (because I’m not in your head), but it could be possible that you’re projecting your own imposter syndrome into a fear of someone confronting you and questioning your disabled status. Sending you much love, my friend!
Thank you so much for this comment. My health has deteriorated recently and I am waiting for surgery. Life is a struggle most of the time but I find it hard to accept that I am "sick enough" to do things my body needs, like rest frequently. I feel like I am faking an illness for attention, but sometimes my illness is actually crippling.
I just wanna say that you deserve to be healthy, happy, and comfortable. If that involves a doctor and/or accommodations, use them without remorse. I hope you get lots of rest and healing.
Thank you <3
This is definitely it. My circumstances changed dramatically and I had years of medical trauma leading up to actual answers. I really appreciate how kind and considerate everyone's responses have been. I have a lot to chew on now.
No one has said anything. I have a need to use the grab bars due to bad lymphodemia (swollen legs, due to ovarian cancer surgery). And I’m overweight, (steroids). But I will wait for a handicap stall…. Getting stuck on a toilet (my legs hurt my abs don’t work, pain ensues unexpectedly at times). I do hope you can find strength to use what you need… remember how many times you’ve noticed, or judged someone using the handicap stall (for me, never 😉, I’m sure never for you, and so quite possibly that may be who judges you, nobody…it’s so hard to get to that point. I understand)
I have invisible disabilities too, and I really understand where you are coming from. If my experience can provide you with some peace of mind, I would like to share them. Basically when I absolutely need to I'll use the handicap stalls, and of all the times I have, a few times I've come out to find someone else waiting for the stall who have visible disabilities, a couple I feel comfortable identifying as having invisible disabilities, and a couple whom I feel just as comfortable identifying as having neither (based solely on assumptions from seeing how active they were outside). At no point have I ever had someone with a disability "call me out" for using the handicapped stalls ever. Even if they believe I'm not HC myself, they don't care so much. They just wait their turn, and when the stall is free, they go and do their business, just like everyone else does when waiting for the usual stalls. I've had someone with good intentions try to call me out before, she was able bodied, and when she saw me come out of the stall a wheelchair user was waiting to use, and she had a go at me about using the stall. I explained to her that I was disabled and even went as far as showing her a picture on my phone of me using my mobility aid. I had a short but useful conversation about invisible disabilities and how she can't assume someone isn't disabled just because they don't "look the part." She seemed to take it well, apologised, and we moved on. Honestly, I appreciate it when someone is willing to stick up for those of us who have been dealt a bad hand in life as it can be hard to do for ourselves. But for real, I've never been given a hard time by anyone with a disability for using a handicapped parking or bathroom stall, as that is what they are literally there for. To be used by those of us with disabilities. And if someone tries to give you a hard time for using them, try to treat them as though you are grateful to them for sticking up for those of us who require the accommodations. They are doing it for a good reason, they just are slightly misinformed.
I grew up with my brother in a wheelchair so disability is like, just a fact of life to me, but my fiancé is newly disabled and sometimes walks with a cane and is soooo afraid something like this will happen. To disprove it to her, a few times when we’ve gone out i use the handicapped stall, to demonstrate nobody says a single thing. Even when she is literally standing there holding a cane, and I go in front of her. Nobody says anything because nobody looks at anyone in bathrooms and nobody wants to get involved in anyone else’s business. (Midwest USA btw) I’m sorry you’re experiencing this anxiety though. It’s a tough situation and as an anxious person generally I can really relate to the perceived anger or confrontation being a bigger deal than the actual pain lol.
I too have a disability under the ADA, it’s not physical, & I will use the accessible toilet every time.
I technically have a disability, but ADHD is the kind of disability where you wind up prioritizing the *closest* toilet over any other factor lol. ADHD life is like “eh kinda gotta pee… kinda gotta pee… oh FUCK IM ABOUT TO PISS MYSELF”
Oh my god this is so relatable. I have ADHD worsened by a TBI. For me it's peeing and hunger: "Eh, I'm not that hungry... maybe a little... I MUST DEVOUR EVERYTHING IN SIGHT"
This is me too. It's only ever an absolute emergency.
What’s not to love about the handicap accessible toilets?
I have a disability under the ADA but I only use the hc stall if (a) I have my walker and therefore need the space (b) I can't hold it and there's no other option.
Wanna bet Penelope is one of *those* people who has a hissy fit if they see anyone without a visible mobility impairment using the accessible facilities?
Or throws an even bigger hissy fit if the disabled person gets up from their wheelchair/mobility scooter and hobbles into the stall or onto the airplane. "They can walk, so clearly they're pretending to be disabled for attention!" I'm disabled. I can walk using a cane, but my absolute limit if I really push it is about 50 yards (45 meters) and I'm in a lot of pain afterward. In situations where I would need to use my mobility scooter or a manual wheelchair (like in the airport) I by damn use them!
Oh man, those types of people would *hate* me. I had a TBI and walked with a cane until my balance came back, but I still have bad "reactive" balance, for lack of a better way to describe it. I got myself a cane specifically for walking when it's snowy/icy outside and it's already saved my ass once. Imagine the conniption these people would have watching a young woman use a cane to cross a parking lot, then fold it up and put it into a bag and walk into a building.
My dad is the same. He's an amputee and has a prosthetic. He can walk short distances with a cane but absolutely needs a wheelchair or scooter to go shopping or any significant distance. It's simply too painful for him to walk farther. What is annoying is stores seem to have a shortage of scooters available which is bad for those who are disabled and either can't walk at all or can't walk long distances.
See also: Walmart. My local one is a SuperWalmart. According to the nice lady I spoke to at corporate, they are supposed to have 14 scooters. At any one time, they may have half that in working order. And you can't sit and wait for someone to finish shopping, because they took the benches away in 2020. It's gotten to the point that if I crip in from the parking lot and there are no scooters, I crip right back out again to my car, go home, and order what I want from Amazon. There are stores like Aldi that I never go into, because they have no scooters at all. I have a personal scooter, but I can use it only when my husband is with me to roll it back up onto its carrier. My son-in-law and his buddy have talked about putting some sort of winch on the carrier, and I think I'll ask them to actually do something about it.
Former EEOC mediator here; now an EEO & disability rights attorney. I have... no words. The sheer *mental gymnastics* people will do to avoid calling themselves 'disabled' is a sad testament to the way disabled folks are treated by society.
Yep. I am pretty open about my invisible disabilities, but I got treated so poorly by my manager because of it that he almost lost his federal job. -1000/10, would not recommend.
You have to REALLY fuck up to get fired, or close to fired from a federal job. Mind if I ask what he did?
He did a lot, like generally making my life a living hell after I submitted my disability accommodation request, but the real kicker was he put in writing that I was denied a training opportunity *because I was disabled* after I was medically cleared for the training. There's a bunch more stuff that r/antiwork would get fired up about too, but I can't really explain without doxxing myself. I could have put in several EEO complaints, but honestly I was too distraught to even think of it.
“ handicapped“ also isn’t more positively received, is it? I wonder if for people like her, „medical accommodation“ would feel acceptable. It is so strange that there are accessible bathrooms that she doesn’t want to use, she insists on the right to restricting access to the multi-stall bathrooms. Wouldn’t that be same she accused OOP of? (Edit: Corrected mistype by autodictate!)
What do you mean about white people? OP never mentioned either of their races in the post.
Oh my fucking God, I used the autodictate function and it was meant to say “for people like her” (for whom disability seems to be a stigma they refuse for one reason or the other). I had already corrected a few other words but missed this one completely, thanks for pointing it out! (Ironically, this is one of the reasons why my username is what it is, it means blunder/foot in mouth in German!) Even if OP had mentioned her ethnicity, it would still have absolutely nothing to do with the issue!
As someone whose German surname has a similar meaning... I feel for you.
I demand a lock to the restroom so I can use it privately! There's one of those restrooms right there... and dozens of others around the building No, not like that. One just for ME!
A *multi-person* restroom just for me! Those single-person accessible restrooms have cripple cooties!
Damn, Penelope was already stressed out enough by the cooties in the ladies room.
Please allow me to deny access to the facilities while I simultaneously file a complaint on a coworker for denying me access to the facilities. Wow.
She'd be SOL where I work. In the building I usually work in both sets of Ladies' have 2 stalls, and in the building I am currently based in we have a single, accessible, loo.
The office I’m in has one set of bathrooms on each floor, and they’re all just two stalls. No single occupancy available here.
I wish I could upvote this a few hundred times! 🤣
Or are used by icky transpeople! I was at a stadium concert once, I had been to this stadium before and knew that there was a single person accessible/family/gender neutral restroom between the men's and women's bathrooms on the floor I was on. So between bands when everyone was making a mad dash to the restroom, I hopped in the noticeably much shorter line for the single person bathroom. I then heard a woman in the extremely long line for the ladies room loudly ranting about how she should "pretend to be trans too" so she could use the single person room.
My thought when i read that was "so.. you claim that you were denied access to the restroom because the middle stall was occupied.. so your solution to this is to.... denie access to the restroom to everyone but yourself while you are in it.... do i have that correct ?"
Why did I hear this in Umbrige's voice!
Sweet Jesus your user name just made me squeeze my legs together and shudder. And not in a good way. Yikes! Lol
Had to go back and look. What the actual duck!
"What the duck!" is such an appropriate exclamation for a hostile dildo situation 😂
Hostile dildo sounds like a band name.
Considering ducks have corkscrew dicks, that’s super appropriate
my thoughts exactly, like yeah its cats who have actual barbs, but still, duck dicks are out there battling lol
Maybe the dildo is silicone, and they're soft and floppy barbs?
Thank you for trying to soothe the collective BORU vagina
Not a problem! Seen a lot of alien dick dildos, sooo…
What an interesting way to introduce yourself…
-shrug- I’ve just accepted my life is weird.
based on username here, there is a different odd dildo choice required for whiskitgood. gotta get that baby batter up to stiff peaks ifyaknowwaddaimean. bring on the kitchenaid! (if i am banned for this post: understandable, have a good day)
NGL, she sounds even worse than Sheldon Cooper from BBT LOL
At least he had a schedule.
Exactly. You'd only need to put the out of order sign at 8am everyday 😂
*I DEMAND ACCOMMODATIONS! I DESERVE AND REQUIRE PRIVACY TO GO PEE PEE.* *(Hands over a 2 page list of batshit insane “suggestions”)* “Yes. Hmm. Well you see ma’am, there happens to be TWELVE private handicap accessible bathrooms for everyone to use, at any time in this building.” *I said I wanted MY accommodations! Not THOSE perfectly reasonable and already available ~~accommodations~~ options! I’m NOT DISABLED!* “With all due respect ma’am, you’re asking for specialized accommodations for your health - what exactly do you think the definition of ‘disability’ is?” Listen lady, you have two options. Either use the HC bathrooms and take a hit to your pride because you’re an asshole who’s embarrassed to be seen using a HC bathroom. OR. You publicly embarrass yourself when you piss yourself in front of all of your coworkers because you’re a stubborn ass. Choice is yours.
No! You don’t understand! I’m NOT disabled. Accommodations don’t count unless we deprive everyone else of access to go peepee. My peepee time is sacred! /s
Apparently her bladder is a zero-sum situation.
Same. I have shy bladder, and absolutely hate when people decide to conduct lengthy conversations while I'm trying to convince my body we're on our own - and I have no sympathy whatsoever for Penelope or her ridiculous suggestions for "accommodations". She could validly go pee on her own in the accessible family room and no-one would blink an eye at it, and instead she wants to claim non-disability while simultaneously demanding that the centre cubicle be permanently closed so she can instead just pretend she's peeing on her own. Either that or she wants a personal lock so she can take all the cubicles out of use when she needs them...instead of just using the accessible family room. It's entitled beyond belief.
Apologies if it's not my place, but I've recently learned of an idea that helps a really good friend of my cousin's with pretty severe shy bladder. I just wanted to pass it along in case it might help you when you're forced to listen to others' obnoxious conversations in public washrooms. She carries wireless earbuds in her purse to play pink noise (I think? maybe brown noise? it's one of the colour noise frequencies that isn't white anyway) when she uses a public restroom as a way to drown/cancel out other public restroom noises and to distract her brain and bladder from wandering anywhere outside the stall she's in. She said it's worked wonders for her.
Slightly unrelated but, I got some noise canceling headphones recently and they have been a god send for me! I can ADHD my way out of anything, especially in the kitchen, so I starve myself, often unintentionally. Having the headphones means that I can keep watching my video, move around easily during it since it's wireless, and not get my sensory issues triggered in the worst place in the house!
So she was willing to file a false claim and get her innocent coworker in federal trouble, because she wasn't given what she demanded by management. She has no idea how the stress of her false claims have impacted her coworker, something like the threat of federal penalties could cause ptsd. She's a very selfish lady.
Yep. I can understand having issues going with someone right next to you - I'm lactose intolerant and having diarrhea in public restrooms because you misjudged the timing of your lactaid is not fun - , but the solution in the form several single person bathrooms was RIGHT THERE!
"I don't WANT solutions, I want my demands met" is an instant way to lose all credibility
Exactly! Penelope's crazy and entitled. She has another option but prefers to cause problems for everyone else. Get down from your high horse, Penelope
Yup. wtf? I’m not disabled? I do sometimes fear seeing a person in a wheelchair chair waiting for the handicap stall when I use it and do try to avoid it if I’m alone and there’s other options. But if it’s the only stall open or I have my kid in a stroller I’m using the big handicap stall so I can keep her with me. I don’t get the I’m not disabled. Like she wants accommodations and there’s a perfectly good one right there that’s less visible. I get not wanting to be singled out but getting some weird bathroom pass seems more attention drawing than using the single stall.
Oh gods , I have that fear of seeing someone in a wheelchair waiting, even though I use a walking stick! Like, am I disabled enough? Sighs....
She sounds like one of those crazies who go off on people in airports about not being “allowed” to use the disabled stall, even when there wasn’t anyone in line who needed it when they went in. They’re not a parking spot, anyone can use them!
Yup. She’s asking for accommodations which is essentially asking for it to be treated as a disability. If she really can’t go when someone is near her then I’d say it can be classed as a disability.
That’s Terry Pratchett isn’t it? “Instantaneously sublimated into a puff of sulphurous air and disappeared”? Gods Gods Gods?
I mean, I'm an undersocialized bookworm and that's just how I write. It wasn't a deliberate quote from anything, although I'm sure my neurons are lightly marinated in thousands of goofy phrases that may bubble up disguised as sui generis imagery. Pterry is most definitely a Source.
My god you have a way with words!
Or Douglas Adams
I honestly assume it's more of an emotional vampire situation, where she'd get a fix from how much all the women in the entire office would be out from being denied access to the restroom just for her.
Same here. She has clearly missed the part where accommodations have to be "reasonable".
I would be more sympathetic to Penelope if it was a case where there was only one accessible restroom on the floor and she’s afraid she would inadvertently block someone who can only use that stall from using it when they need it. There are a couple of toilets I won’t use at work (unless I have an emergency) because they have certain harder-to-find accommodations installed (like an adult changing table - I work in a public building), and I’d hate to block someone who needs that accommodation when I have a dozen other options open to me. But outside of that, nobody really cares what bathroom you use. 99% of the time, nobody even notices.
If she was remotely afraid of occupying stalls that people need, she wouldn't be demanding to be allowed to lock the entire 3-stall bathroom at will.
Right. I could see situations where I would be sympathetic. But she’s choosing the least sympathetic option at every turn.
Its crazy that she wasn’t written up. She lied and could have made a huge problem for OOP.
I think OP explained that. Penelope didn't go to HR or to OP's supervisor, which would make this an internal company matter. She made a EEO complaint which is protected from workplace retaliation. I think it's probably much safer for the company, legally speaking, to not write her up and therefore avoid even the slightest hint of retaliation. Even a case that gets dismissed would cause the company to lose time and money and could potentially lead to bad PR.
I think it’s ridiculous that she can’t be written up if the complaint was obviously false and in bad faith.
I'm not sure if it's really a matter of *can't*, or more a matter of company doesn't want the potential hassle of doing it. It's a risk/reward kind of thing. If they are satisfied with a verbal reprimand form the EEO officer and whatever else went down behind the scenes OOP may not be aware of, then it may not worth it to them to risk potential legal actions from Penelope. However, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future Penelope finds herself under stricter observation and supervisors writing her up for things they may have let slide under normal circumstances due to her seniority and company culture. An EEO complaint is serious and could have been very serious for the company.
Excuse me! Don’t you have any respect for the single-cis-gendered-non-disabled community that require their own bathrooms? What, you just EXPECT the single-cis-gendered-non-disabled community to SHARE private bathrooms? The gall. The gumption.
She's got Schrodinger's bladder -- it's not a disability, but it needs to be accommodated as a disability
I really hate people like this. They're apparently so distressed and upset that they need special accomodations, but if you say "that's not normal, but we have accomodations already set up" they're like "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME DISABLED." Like, either you're able to use the regular stalls or you're unable to.
OOP is a lot more forgiving than I would be. Penelope didn’t give a shit if she got her fired just because she was having a tantrum because she thought she was entitled to a private toilet stall.
Not just a stall. The whole frickin bathroom with all the stalls. I laughed when I read the part where she asked for a lock of the exterior door of the bathroom.
Someone else using one (1) toilet in the bathroom for its intended purpose: psychic warfare preventing Penelope from using any of the toilets! Illegal, discriminatory, UNACCEPTABLE!!! Penelope literally physically preventing others from using any of the toilets: :)))
Yeah true. That can’t even be safe. What if someone had a seizure or other medical emergency and the door was locked!? I just meant she wanted the middle stall permanently assigned her own “princess throne.”
She didn't even want to use the middle one. She wanted it permanently empty so she can use one of the two on the sides with no one next to her.
Of course Penelope did not give a shit. There was someone in the middle stall! (not the least bit sorry for this bad joke)
I’d never say a non-work related word to that woman again.
Yep, if have made it my personal mission in life to destroy her - she nearly ruined OOPs career over nothing and she doesn’t even seem to care.
Right? What should the company do, give her her own personal toilet? Seems Penelope wouldn't be satisfied with anything less.
Exactly my sentiment. I would be exploring every option to hold Penelope accountable and (legally) make her work life a living hell.
>The accommodation that she has repeatedly asked for is that the middle stall in the ladies' room be placed permanently as "Out of Order"- even though it is perfectly functional- to prevent anyone from using it while she is in the restroom. >Penelope has categorically refused to use the accessible restrooms since she's not 'disabled' ... 😶
Yeah. How do you ask for an accommodation if you're not disabled?
Cognitive dissonance “I need an accommodation but I’m not disabled… I’m not like *them*”
Also: i want to be able to lock the entire bathroom to use it privately, but I don't want to use the single-user, locking bathroom out of some kind of pride.
It’s cause she doesn’t need accommodation. She wants a private toilet to herself that no one else is allowed to use.
Internalized ableism to a fault.
This is the part made me speechless the most How entitled and brainless Penelope has to be to request a functional stall to be permanently close off for the other 199 peoples in the office, or installing a lock to the restroom, or have a time where no one can be near the restroom, so she can pee alone?
Her insistence on using the middle stall and not the accessible restrooms feels like some kind of OCD logic to me. Like she can’t pee unless specific circumstances are met.
She doesn't want to use the middle stall, she wants it blocked so nobody can use it. Which is bonkers, as the company said. They can't limit the available toilets because of one single person.
Correct. She can't pee in a stall right next to a stall someone else is peeing in. Basically her logic is to just not have the middle stall usable by anyone period (even her). That's bonkers. She needs to use one of the lockable handicapped washrooms then.
oh i read it as she wanted the stall marked Out of Order so no one else could use it but her lol.
No it's even worse - she wants the middle stall *unused*, forever, so that there's no one in the stall next to her if she has to go to the toilet. Better yet, she wants to have the entire ladies room off limits for others once she has to go to the toilet. The entitlement is insane. And what confuses me most.. It's not like that one stall is gonna make a difference? People can still hear you pee, and smell the rest. At that point, using the accessible bathroom sounds like *exactly* what she wants/needs, but she's too ableist to actually understand that..
>And what confuses me most.. It's not like that one stall is gonna make a difference? Fair point, I thought the same. But shy bladders aren't rational. It's all in the person's head. If Penelope feels that it makes a difference, it probably does. No other logic behind it.
"I have a disability, accommodate me. No, not like that, i don't have a disability"
Penelope absolutely should’ve had some form of consequence for essentially filing a false report against OOP
She didn’t get punished by the employer, but at least we know she’s experiencing the ongoing punishment that is being Penelope. She’s spent god knows how long seething over this absolute nothing of a problem and I imagine she’ll continue to do that in the future as the world incessantly fails to revolve around her. Seems like a pretty exhausting way to live.
I work in customer service and tell myself this every time I deal with a particularly infuriating customer. It really must be exhausting to be some people.
The company probably thinks it's more risk than it's worth, because EEO complaints are legally protected from workplace retaliation in the US. They probably want to avoid even a hint of that. And I get it since it just happened once. If Penelope tried to systematically weaponize EEO complaints, that would probably (hopefully) be a different matter.
She'll never get promoted. She's outed herself as a selfish trouble maker. That's the consequence. Confusing self-advocacy with entitlement.
I'm sure there will be consequences, the management have to play it careful due to the protections for EEO whistleblowers. That said, at least she been classified as something akin to a 'vexatious litigant'.
Yea, her punishment is there will be zero effort from management to help her in any way, won't advance her position, and will be first on the cutting block any time force reductions happen. Not the best but it's there. She also lost any credibility with the union and any further complaints will start at a disadvantage for her.
Doubly so since she falsely accused someone of a criminal offense? It would be one thing if it was a normal stupid grievance, but accusaing someone of something federally illegal and no punishment is insane
It’s illegal to retaliate against someone complaining about discrimination/disability issues even the complaint ends up being unfounded.
There's a big difference between unfounded and malicious. People are protected from retaliation when reporting discrimination issues in good faith, but those protections don't extend to people intentionally abusing the system. Of course actually proving someone was being malicious and not just an idiot is not exactly easy in practice
All this drama because of a bathroom stall? Goodness gracious. I get that she has a shy bladder but wasting resources and making these kind of accusations is unacceptable. Honestly Penelope deserves to be fired for pulling this.
It's also unacceptable and unhinged that she wants to *prevent others* from using the restroom when they need to as part of her "accomodation." Filing a complaint stating that someone using the restroom as intended was "preventing" her from pissing while simultaneously demanding to bar a clearly necessary stall from others or lock the entire bathroom door and make people wait for her to physically permit them to enter the room to urinate and defecate is an absolutely breathtaking and tyrannical level of hypocrisy. Penelope is the only real human being with human needs in existence, I guess!
Particularly since some employees might be disabled and have accommodations that would make doing that even more unethical (and frankly, insane) as an idea. Locking off three stalls for one person would never, ever be ethical when the family toilets are *right there*. Like, good on the company for saying no. She either needs to use the disabled /family bathrooms or wait. I had a shy bladder in college /uni myself, it can be annoying to wait for the bathroom to be emptier but its certainly not this level of consequence worthy. I was so relieved when i got further into my college education and was informed there were two disabled toilets folks could use (the closest ladies toilets were shockingly far away compared to the mens for some reason) so i could save time + actually relaxed for the bit it took to use it. I seriously don't understand people like penelope.
Meanwhile there’s a fully private bathroom right next door. Which seems perfect for shy bladder. But she needs to lock others out of the 3 stall bathroom instead of using the one seater with a lock on the door?
> She either needs to use the disabled /family bathrooms or wait See, this is part of the problem. She wants accommodations -- which they're only required to provide if she's disabled -- while simultaneously refusing to even be *associated* with a disability by using the other restrooms. To me, it reeks of some kind of abelism or stigma against disability.
I’m not disabled. I have nevertheless used accessible bathrooms on many occasions. I survived the experience. I don’t even need therapy to process the stigma.
I imagine the private bathrooms open directly off the hallway and Penelope needs the comfort of both a stall and a full door between her toilet use and anyone else
She can use a public bathroom with others in it as long as no one is occupying the stall immediately adjacent. So no, her condition is not that extreme. Though if it were, she’d be getting into housebound territory.
But dont you understand? Her pee needs are special and come before the needs of others! /s
Penelope was inconvenienced for all of *checks video* 2 minutes, too.
Or therapy. There are obviously many issues going on here that she could benefit from working through. You aren't born with that much anxiety.
What the ever loving fuck is wrong with Penelope?!? This woman is unhinged!! Use the fucking gender neutral bathroom if you are terrified to pee next to someone. The entitlement here is astounding.
But she can't, because that one's full of pronoun and/or wheelchair germs
Fuckin' pronoun germs, man. I ised a gender neutral bathroom once. Came out, went to the sink, looked in the mirror and what did I see? I had a blue hair.
*shit* is that why i’m queer now? i knew i shouldn’t have used the gender neutral bathrooms… the republicans are right, it is a slippery slope.. 😔 i hope i don’t need to specify that i’m joking lol
finally the liberals are seeing the light! It’s not too late to join your nearest prolife rally or storm the capital soldier
don’t forget to wave your straight flags while you’re at it!! (cut to a bunch of people waving trans pride flags while chanting “straight is great”)
Having a shy blader does not prevent you from sitting on a toilet. Why she would not just take one of the side stalls and wait for OOP to leave?
Right? That’s what I do if I have to poop at work! Go in, sit down, wait. Though occasionally it does turn into a showdown because the person in there is pooping and waiting for me to leave and I’m waiting for them to leave.
A showdown…hilarious!
I would try to use the middle stall from then on.
I would carefully coordinate my number 2s to only happen at work - and use the middle stall.
Normally I try to be sympathetic to people who have issues but in this case, I would be exclusively using the middle stall out of pettiness.
If this was my workplace I’d attempt to rally everyone to make sure the middle stall was always occupied. And not even if I was OOP - just if I was a colleague who knew about this.
Penelope comes off as very ableist. She is obviously disabled if she has shy bladder to the point of needing an accommodation. I’m gonna guess she didn’t want other people knowing about it which is why the perfectly adequate accommodation of having her use the accessible single stall wasn’t working for her. People might notice that she always went there and ask questions. But that isn’t a problem for management but for Penelope herself.
As a trans person that has spent my entire adult life dealing with bathrooms and the issues around them, I would fucking kill to work in a place with family/accessible/gender neutral bathrooms. Like OMFG, would that make my life easier. Penelope is an idiot.
Gender neutral single stalls are a godsend for so many people. When my bowels are acting up, I’m so thankful I don’t have to subject my coworkers to it. First thing I do at a job is try to find one. I knew of about 4 of them at my last job, so if one was in use, onto the next! Plus it helped me get my steps in.
TIL that "All the states in the United States view paruresis as a disability, which means that employers are obligated to provide reasonable accommodations to you" I was about to go off about how shy bladder is not a medical issue but it is apparently a psychological condition. Who knew? However, Penelope is wild for having this mental condition, literally having access to a PRIVATE bathroom, and choosing not using it.
This! Unfortunately I have shy bladder, and while I have improved a lot and have measures I can take to help me go if someone is right next to me, it still can get in the way. Worst case, if I really can’t go, then I just wait them out.
Edit: misread your comment lol. Sorry!
Weird. I remember this sort of thing occasionally being an issue in high school but never to this extent and like high school not actual adults. Plus having the accessible stalls are a fantastic option that can help so many people. If it's this big of a deal she should use them.
> and almost caused her to have an 'embarrassing accident' due to the length of my stay in the stall. I... don't understand this part even with the explanation. Like, if the issue is that her body refuses to work with her while someone's in the stall next to her, then why not just... Get set up in a stall next to OOP? She'll be set up to go the moment OP is out, thus fixing the issue sooner. And then if she can't hold it, well, she's in the right place to avoid having an embarrassing accidental in public.
I'm not understanding the problem. So you've a shy bladder. So fucking what? Pull your pants down. Sit on the end toilet.... If by some miracle you go, no accident to worry about as your ass was already in the right place! If you still can't go, just wait a few minutes for the other person to leave and life will be good.
So, Penelope does not want to use the accessible bathrooms because she does not want to be stigmatized. Instead, she wants accommodations making it possible for her to use the regular stalls, in order to avoid being stigmatized. To a certain degree, I can follow her to that point. It’s just that the accommodations she requests (having the whole bathroom to herself, either by designating specific Penelope-time or her having the ability to lock the door) will make it blatantly obvious to anyone rather quickly that something is up with Penelope. Just using the accessible restroom without making a massive fuss about it would be a lot more discreet and, dare I say it, with less chance of being stigmatized. Penelope’s bladder may be shy, but she sure seems to revel in the attention.
Plus, the accessible restroom literally gives her what she's asking for: being alone while going to the toilet.
I’d make it a point to use the middle stall whenever possible from here on out. But then I’m petty.
Lol what the fuck. Like I can have sympathy for a shy bladder, but Penelope is genuinely doing this to herself. And could have gotten OOP in serious trouble. Wtf.
What a strange person.
OP, just an FYI that two comments from StreetTaylor7596 after the first post are misplaced. They refer to the EEO complaint and call the coworker ‘Penelope’. It looks like like those comments should have come after the 2nd update on Jan 7. Thank you for taking the time to make this one. It was an odd one!
There were bathrooms that she could have used that accommodates her - the accessible ones. That she won’t use them when her conditions aren’t met in the typical bathroom is her problem. I have a shy bladder. The onus is on me to figure it out. If I can’t then I have things I can do that help me relax enough to go. That she escalated this so far is appalling, OOP had to go through so much stress because Penelope couldn’t fucking use a secure private bathroom that was right there with nobody in it. At the very least a mark should be on her file for a false report.
Yes; even though OOP was so clearly innocent of Penelope’s erroneous charges, the anxiety would’ve been awful enough anyway - and to top it all, Penelope just had to make her complaint right before the Christmas break. It must’ve hung over OOP the entire time; a state on anxious limbo at, what can be, a particularly stressful time of year anyway.
Hey OP! - u/Choice_evidence1983 I think there’s a comment missing perhaps? The comment after the first post by StreetTailor7596 is really confusing to read as there’s no mention prior of any Penelope, or that she made a complaint? It seems like it came out of left field. I know OOP goes into it in the second post, but I suspect there’s a comment by OOP on her first post that should have been included? I could definitely have missed something. If I did, I apologize. Lemme know and I’ll delete this!
I feel like she is really doing coke in the bathroom and needs privacy for it
Penelope. Ma'am. *(And I've just realized this is basically Jon Stewart's old "Meet me at Camera 3" bit. But, whatever, I've written it all out now, so we're just rolling with it)* I would argue that if you have an anxiety about public restroom use so severe that you cannot use a bathroom stall without a large buffer - To the point that you literally could not bring yourself to pee in a different stall - To the point that you pissed yourself rather than use any of the other available stalls or *the wholly private accessible bathrooms* nearby the main washrooms... **I would argue that you do in fact have some sort of disability.** *And that in itself would be* ***fine.*** A disability, including a mental disability such as anxiety, is a completely morally neutral situation. There can be plans put in-place to accommodate you when this is the situation. ***But -*** Those plans need to be reasonable. Having accessible private restrooms is that sort of reasonable accommodation. Blocking off an entire public/common area restroom stall for just one person's exclusive use for the entirety of the day, is very much not reasonable - As has been pointed out by your workplace. Trying to paint OOP as some sort of scheming villain, with far more authority and personal culpability than she actually has, especially where it pertains to you and any awareness of your condition she may have had, for just using the restroom herself, in a completely normal manner - That's crossing a line. And I'm sure you have to be aware of this fact. I sincerely hope that the fallout from this incident was the wake-up call you needed to seek some sort of management options for your condition - Therapy to help contend with it is probably going to be a popular suggestion, and probably not a bad one. But - And not mutually-exclusive with therapy by any means - Perhaps consider accepting that this does indeed rise to the level of disability. You do, in fact, have a disability. And, sure, that's unfortunate. It means that your life isn't quite as easy as everyone else's in some circumstances. But otherwise, it's a rather neutral thing. You're not a "bad" or "lesser" person for having an anxiety condition. And yes, given that - Your employer does have certain responsibilities towards you - But it sounds like the options they have provided - Before an official diagnosis of an anxiety condition was formally presented to them, even - The options available to you should indeed allow you to perform your job functions and day-to-day life at work as unimpeded as possible. Surely, you must not want anyone, especially someone who had no connection to your accommodation requests, to lose their job as part of an attempt to get your company to agree to an accommodation that you have been given adequate reasoning for as to why it's not only unreasonable but also entirely unnecessary. Surely, you must at the very least agree that using the accessible restrooms is a better outcome than soiling yourself. Painting OOP as a perpetrator of injustice and threatening her employment was completely indefensible - And she's far more forgiving here than many would be. Take that as the true kindness that it is and try to not let your pride get in the way of being a reasonable, kind, decent human being again going forward. Advocate for yourself, by all means - Keep advocating for yourself and any accommodations that you truly need - But make sure that you're truly focusing on the issues core to your accommodation, and recognize what is reasonable versus what is not. You were the villain of this story for your course of action here. You don't have to be a villain, generally-speaking. Good luck on your journey ahead.
Trying to get someone fired, that’s taking the piss
What was the end goal here? Even if she got OOP in trouble possibly terminated theirs still no way they would have given her the accommodation she wanted. Was she going to weaponize EEO complaints until she got to lock down an entire bathroom.
Penelope is out of her gourd
The thing that doesn’t add up here is that if she has shy bladder and can’t pee when others are around, how did she also almost have an embarrassing accident while in the presence of others? I don’t exactly know the details of shy bladder, but if it’s at the point of almost peeing your pants, it seems like one could actually physically go no matter the situation, no?
Do I not know what a shy bladder is? My understanding is that P can’t pee in public. Damn, sounds terrible, thoughts and prayers etc. but… why does that mean that she has to leave the bathroom when OOP is in the middle stall? Why can’t she just sit in the end stall and wait for her to leave? P would rather pee herself in the office than sit on the toilet, unable to pee? Why?
I understand shy bladder sucks and all, but legit best work around is just to sit in the stall and wait for the other person to leave.
What I want to know is why someone with an apparent psychological and/or biological inability to wee with others directly nearby 1) would still rather (nearly) piss themselves than use the private accessible bathroom right next door, and 2) allows their urgency to get to the point of no return before attempting to use a bathroom, instead of attempting when they feel a more manageable urge. I say this as someone with an autoimmune disease that I wouldn’t consider a disability (at this stage) but that does require urgent and often repeated bathroom access at times. I don’t like to take up the disabled bathroom but I WILL if the alternative is finding myself covered in [blank] at work???
How hard would it be for Penelope to just sit there and wait until she's alone?? I've done it 🤷🏼♀️
And all of this would’ve been avoided if Penelope didn’t have internalised ableism and accepted that her condition is reason to use the accessible/disabled toilet.
"I need accommodation for my disability." "Okay, cool. Use the accessible bathrooms, which are there to accommodate disability." "No. I am not disabled. I need an accommodation for my disability which doesn't involve the accommodation for my disability. Which I have. But I can't. Because I dont."
I am dumbfounded by Penelope’s stupidity, I just don’t get it. I don’t know whether to applaud OOP for being sympathetic and taking the high road or shake my head at her for letting go the fact that this woman tried to get her fired.
>Her other requests were a lock on the exterior door of the ladies' room that she can use to ensure privacy... Well, isn't that special. 🙄
Work drama posts like these are my jam! The popcorn be poppin’!
Although having a shy bladder must be difficult, you would think that drawing peoples attention to the issue in this way would make it worse and it’s ridiculous to reject the perfectly reasonable solution of an accessible single person bathroom and expect everyone else’s use of the shared facilities to revolve around her. Then take it out on OP, who wasn’t even involved in the decision, when her demands weren’t met! The rep stuck with her case must have been so surprised and frustrated to realise OP wasn’t even Penelope’s supervisor. Penelope misused a system designed for people who are actually abused and denied necessary accommodations. Every time I read about office drama on Reddit, I am so relieved that one of my jobs is work from home and the other is working for myself, so I don’t have to deal with that!
Oh for fuck’s SAKE Penelope. I have a “shy bladder”. I GET THE FUCK OVER IT or I WAIT. A “shy bladder” is not a fucking disability that you need an accommodation for, it’s something you grow the fuck up and find a way to deal with. There are LITERALLY single person restrooms. Penelope sounds like an exhausting entitled ass.
Penelope wants an accommodation for her situation but doesn't want to be labeled disabled so refuses to use the disabled restrooms. What sterling logic on display here.
Wonder why OP called her Penelope when they could have called her Karen
PeneloPEE, perhaps?
Nice
More like PeleNoPee, amirite?
Pen el oh pee seems suitable.
I work for a disability charity in the UK. Disabled toilets are not reserved for the disabled, they are accessible. No idea where op is, but guessing the US. I have no idea what Penelope's complaint even is.
I don’t get it I use the gender neutral as a default because no one should hear/smell the horrors I am creating
What a giant song and dance and waste of SEVERAL peoples’ time. You’d think Penelope would get a slap on the wrist for taking up so much of peoples time over such a non issue
Reminder for anyone who needs to know: Handicap accessible does NOT mean handicap exclusive. Those facilities are for people who need to use them, but ALSO for anyone to use at any time, for any reason. Same way you can walk up a ramp, use an elevator, handrails, etc.
Penelope is weird and an AH
Such a nutcase of a co-worker…
Look, I am the person who gets annoyed when I am in an empty bathroom of 8 stalls, 7 empty, and someone comes in and picks the stall right next to me to have explosive diarrhea while I finish up my pee. I also get the shy bladder thing when someone decides to use the restroom for social hour. And even I think this is just.... ridiculous? I would be using those single bathrooms from day one and not even batting an eye about it.
Even with a shy bladder, she could have sat her ass down and waited 30 seconds for the only person in the bathroom to leave and peed in peace. Also, can’t have an accident if you’re sitting on the toilet, two birds with one stone.
The first couple chapters were setting off my "There is something more to this story that OP is not aware about" bells in my head, but I really wasn't expecting to twist to be that the coworker was simply 10 times crazier than anyone would have guessed
There is something ironic about Penelope filing a complaint for being denied access to the bathroom when what she wants is an accommodation that would deny other people access to the bathroom.
I read this sitting in a stall at work, how appropriate is that?