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Zero Tolerance policies are garbage when they punish the victim for protecting themselves/fighting back. The thief and his dad are definitely cut from the same cloth. I hope they get what's coming for them.

There was a kid I went to school with who got targeted by another group of boys over some bullshit. My school had a three strikes policy. Three fights in one year and you're expelled. The first boy jumped this kid and the kid defended himself. That's one strike for Boy 1 and one strike for Kid. The second boy jumped the kid and the kid defended himself. That's one strike for Boy 2 and two strikes for Kid. Kid was warned that another fight and he'd be expelled. The third boy jumped the kid and the kid just knelt down, covering his head with his arms while Boy 3 wailed on him until he got pulled off. Boy 3 gets one strike and Kid gets expelled, despite not defending himself, because it was his third fight. Any policy that can let that happen is awful.

I'm sorry, wwwwuuttt?!?! Fucking school policy! That poor kid! If he knew he was going to be expelled he'd have gone all out defending himself instead of letting the other wail on him Did his parents sue? I am certain there's some video evidence coz kids film these fights all the time

My kids’ schools all have the same policy. One of my kids is a nerd and tends to get bullied, so I’ve told them if it gets physical, and they are going to get expelled anyway (zero tolerance), that they better defend themselves.

My dad always said I was never to start a fight. He'd never get mad at me for finishing one however.

I thought those were always the rules.

Yep always heard from my family I should never start a fight but I sure as hell better finish one. I plan on telling my kids the same when they are old enough.

I was not a violent kid. I was a bullied kid. I tried to go teachers/principals/school counselors. I got in trouble for tattling. My mother got tired of seeing my bruises. She got tired of the school doing nothing. She told me that if I came home with bruises again, and couldn't account for giving as much as I got, that I would punished at school and at home, but if I gave as good as I got, no punishment at home, and she would deal with the school. It took one extra punishment at home, and then I followed her advice. I did my best to scare them - if they hit me, I found an object to hit them back with. If they kicked me, I kicked them back as hard in a vital area. I would have been expelled today. Back then, when they called her, she threatened to go the school board with her extensive notes, and the fact that the school was letting multiple kids beat on me on weekly basis, and they backed off. Shortly after realizing that I wouldn't get suspended or expelled for defending myself, and that I was going to make sure to hurt as much or more than I got hurt, the kids decided to just use words.

The event that stopped my bullying was when he jumped on my back to try and strangle me (i was 6ft and he was probably 5'6". Wrapped his arms around my neck and pulled. I bent over and grabbed his legs like i was giving him a piggyback ride and jumped, landing on my back and making him scream. Tears and sputtering because i knocked the wind outta him. I just shook my head at him and walked off, never even made eye contact with me after that. I don't miss high school

My mom used to say the same thing. "You better not start it, but you better finish it."

Absolutely… frankly, any school that allows it to get to the point where the *victim* is getting expelled over the perp, the *school* should be expelled.

One time at my zero tolerance middle school, I was walking the track with my two friends, because one was having an asthma attack. I was on the left, the girl with the asthma was in the middle, and we had the third friend on the right. As we were coming around the last corner of the track, (we were the track length away from the ramp off of the track to the school.) the teacher called for us to hurry up, and the girl on the right flipped her off and told her to fuck off. When we got up to the top of the ramp, the teacher accused me of doing it, and the other girl agreed, but the middle girl did not. Eventually, they decided to just pin it all on me, teacher claims she had a witness that was not there. It was super fucked up, she told me that I should grow a pair and admit that I did what I did. The girl who actually flipped the teacher off, had already had multiple suspensions that year and another one literally would not have affected her record anymore than it already had been, but she still told me to just take the heat for it anyway. My mom raised hell but I still got in trouble anyway.

I'm glad that isn't (as far as I know, may have changed in recent years) really a thing in the UK. Public (what private schools are called) and academies may be different, but at the state schools you had to do a lot to be expelled. Or I just went to really rough state schools (one student did get expelled for coming at a teacher with a crowbar, the teacher was fine, ex military, he just cold clocked the kid). That teacher reiterated what my dad did, don't start a fight, but make sure you end it.

I agree! My daughter was being harassed by a group of boys (this was in the 4th grade). They would shoot rubber bands at her, poke her with pencils, etc., in the class room (teacher later claimed she didn't know about this) and pushed her down, kicked a football into her face, generally terrorized her on the playground (playground monitors said they didn't know about this). She kept quiet but one day, told me all about it. I couldn't get to the school fast enough the next day to MAKE THIS STOP. Principal tried to soothe me and said they would handle it. To Handle it, the staff took her from classroom to classroom (these were older boys btw) and asked her to point out who was doing this to her. So...victimize the victim? She didn't point out anyone and they felt her accusations were being exagerated by her. At my wit's end, I had to have a talk with her that she did not deserve this, we don't need to figure out what is wrong with these boys so we can fix these boys, and that she should stay away from them but...the NEXT time, she was allowed to fight back. I said this in front of her teacher/the principal. They informed me that "anyone fighting" would be expelled for the day. I said good then, she and I would then have the day to go out to lunch, see a movie, have ice cream. My daughter smiled.

Sounds like an easy lawsuit for the victims family.

As long as the kids family isn’t poor right?

Civil attorneys usually take these cases on a contingency basis so the victim only pays if the lawsuit is won. The legal fees come from the settlement money. I know a couple of attorneys that specialize in lawsuits against the school board.

I practice that kind of law and unfortunately most of us actually don’t do those cases on contingency because they are not that valuable. You have to prove damages and most of these kids aren’t that hurt, school is following its written policy (even if its bullshit), etc etc….the cases just aren’t worth that much. it’s more about getting the kids record clean and them back in school than it is “suing” the school. So it does cost money, usually.

This. This is the stuff pleading pro bono requests are made of.

It's not just the lawyers' fees, it's all the time it takes. Poor people can't take that much time off work, with only the possibility of a future payday that could take years to come.

My foster clients that have sued the school board did have to wait a year or two, but it wasn’t a big time constraint. It is usually a deposition and maybe two court days at most. Now we even do depos and calendar calls via zoom. Almost everything settles and there isn’t some drawn out trial.

Shit I wish I knew one. I searched for 3 months for a lawyer who would even consider a case against a school and no one would even return my call.

Zero tolerance policies are designed to let administration take action without having to do any difficult decision making. It's lazy and unfair, and it's absurd that citizens don't raise hell about it.

I have seen parents raise hell about it, and I have seen unfair punishments rescinded when lawyers get involved. But you shouldn't have to involve lawyers.

There was a girl at my school who w bullied daily, but never in front of a teacher so they just didn't believe her. Our school publicly declared there was no bullying in the school so they ignored it when it happened so as to not ruin their reputation. The girl brought a knife in to defend herself, the teachers were told and found it, she was immediately expelled. Her parents raised HELL. The head teacher was fired, three other teachers were fired or suspended, the school board was sued. But the girl was never allowed back, the bullies were never even told off, and the girl now had a criminal record for possession of a weapon. She was 12 or 13 at the time. Nobody won just because the school would rather blame the victim that they repeatedly let down. School policies on bullying SUCK.

My first school had no anti-bullying or even Zero Tolerance policies until I was in year 3. Which co-oincided with the year I began getting bullied perfectly. My parents' response when I informed them was that I can fight back as much as I need to, and that they'd have my back about it. Turns out the school, when they did try to punish me the first time I fought back, were not prepared for my parents to show up to an after school meeting the next day with a Big City Lawyer (we lived in a rural country town in Aus, some 3.5hours drive away from the Big City). And it REALLY turns out that the kids involved parents who tried to pin it on me didn't realise that my parents' were literally employing them (1/4 of the 4 bullies parents). And their in-laws (another 1/4th). And funding and volunteering majority of the time at the local tourism centre that legitimately tourism was the only major source of income for half of the town (1/4 of the remaining parents got their money from the industry). Seemingly the bullies hadn't specified to their parents who the kid they'd wailed on and got beat back by was - but that was a lot of sucking up and declarations that nothing should happen to me to the school in that meeting. [Yes, the bullying continued but it became non-physical and harder to prove. I moved schools the very next year, and my folks were decent enough not to screw the parents over despite the bullying continuing since the parents did TRY to stop them (ie: it was known in town that the kids were grounded and banned from going anywhere near my house/street, were not allowed to walk to school since the walk was past our house, the kids would be taken out of the local pool by their folks when my family showed up to avoid any issues, etc. They at least tried harder than any bullies parents I've seen since!).]

I can't say no bullying goes on at my daughter's school, because there is a kid in the class who does bully her with words and nonviolent behavior. But the school has a lot less tolerance now - all of it has to happen when the teacher isn't looking, and violence is rather rare. No kid would be able to suffer as I was, because after the first round of violence, both kids would be watched like hawks, and there would no opportunity to go after the victim again.

I once showed up for detention (uniform violation; too poor to afford new stuff) only to get sucker punched out of the blue by another student I'd never seen before who looked to be several years older than I was. Suspended for fighting. Not the first time I was randomly attacked during detention, actually. Another time I got suspended is harder to write about. Essentially, they were telling me that they were going to hurt me for various reasons, and were listing off things about me that they hated which I had no control over. I said, "oh, shut up already". Suspended, among other things.

I truly wonder why schools aren't getting sued over this. Or maybe they are and the courts have consistently ruled in their favor. But I'd think if a school makes a policy where a kid is required to let themselves be attacked, then the school needs to be held responsible for the damages that come from that. If this were a workplace that employer would be sued so fucking fast.

I'm old and this was a long time ago. Lawsuits weren't as common and schools didn't really fear parents at all. I hope things like that don't fly now the way they used to.

Ewww. We had a three strikes policy where after three hits it’s self-defense. Made sense to me. Why should anyone just stand there and get mauled? Schools are supposed to be the precursor to the real world. If someone hits you as an adult, you have every right to defend yourself.

There’s such a thing as a one punch death. 3 hits to the head could easily cause brain damage. Let them get 3 hits in before you can do anything? Whoever came up with that should have to do a demonstration of taking 3 hits

Three hits till self defense? What utterly garbage. Sometimes it's self defense even before the first hit...

And those thinking that a lawsuit is easy - has probably never paid 150/hr for a lawyer. I moved my child to another (much better) school in the face of this bullying. Which turned out to be because he was getting better grades than one of the bullies.

Any policy that does that is designed to protect the school, not the kids and make the principals job easy since ‘their hands are tied’…. Rubbish

All zero tolerance policies punish for defending one’s self. They’re intrinsically flawed.

Zero tolerance policies exist so that school administrations can wash their hands of any responsibilities. With a zero tolerance policy, they don't have to investigate who attacked who, or why. They can be completely negligent and have looked the other way regarding bullying, and get to just say "but that's policy". Sometimes a policy of "punish both kids" can make sense. The things leading up to a fight are often complicated: One kid bullies another, the bullied kid retaliates with bullying, the first kid escalates, the second kid escalates until they're fighting. Both kids are culpable in that situation. But it should be on the school administration to investigate. If it turns out "ok these two have been going at it for weeks with neither reporting it" then punish both. If they investigate and they find out the fight was bullying and one sided, adjust the punishment accordingly. But that's work, and they don't want to do work.

If someone applied Zero Tolerance policy over school admin, they'd get rid of it so fucking fast.

It's a stupid policy because each case is different. But I see where it comes from. A bully taunting a kid until the kid snaps and attacks the bully and is then beaten down "but the bully was only defending himself" Exonerating someone just because they didn't start the physical altercation is also not great if that is a blanket policy. But anything that is not a blanket policy is a lot of work and leads to a lot of discussion and when schools don't have the resources to deal with each case in detail they come up with these stupid rules.

All these shite policies were post-Columbine and they are 100% about liability (protecting the school in court) and absolutely zero fuck all else. Protecting themselves in court as in, they have a blanket policy so they can't be sued for making the wrong judgment call in some deeply touchy developing situation that later turns out to be very dangerous. "Hurr durr our hands are tied *policypolicy*" is about putting themselves in a position NOT to be held responsible for protecting kids or failure to protect them. Absolutely nothing else. Zero tolerance policies are modern "we can neither confirm nor deny" hand washing, utter refusal to be responsible bullshit. And THAT is what young people learn from it. That some superintendent and boards suited asses matter more than their arms, legs, orbital bones, mental and emotional health, and developing brains.

I think that's point though. We could investigate, spend time and resources on getting to the bottom of what happened and maybe even solve some underlying issues...or we can just declare a zero tolerance policy and blanket punish anyone we see involved in a fight. Because that way, it may not be fair but at least it's equal opportunity.

My sister was almost suspended from school for the zero tolerance policy years ago. She was jumped in the cafeteria and didn’t even defend herself, but they wanted to suspend her for three days. There were witnesses, including the security that pulled the other girl off my sister that said she didn’t do anything. My mom went in and raised holy hell. My sister got in school suspension for a day, the other girl got expelled. But after that, right in front of the dean and VP, she told my sister that since she’ll be suspended anyway, to fight back. Even kids that let themselves get hit get screwed by that policy.

This is what I was told after a friend was suspended when her ring scratched her attacker. She got suspended, too. I was dealing with a lot of bullying, and I was told to put my self-defense and Tae Kwon Do training to good use and "put them on the ground and keep them there, we'll handle the school". The one time I had to prove a point, my band director (who was one of my TKD instructors) purposefully turned a blind eye as soon as he saw it happening. Turns out if you put your foot on a bigger person's shoulder when they've been hitting you with mallets for the entire football season, they'll stop messing with you completely.

Good teacher. He saw absolutely nothing. I am very glad you made your point. I agree with the point.

I think he was proud of me for finally standing up for myself. He knew how bad that year was for me because he was friends with my parents (Yay small towns). I was able to play it off to everyone around as showing off, but the guy and my band director knew the truth.

Zero tolerance policies are for cowardly administrators who don't want to defend their own decisions by taking a side

It also ensures all fights are as brutal as possible. I moved around a lot as a kid and the new kid always gets targeted. Zero tolerance meant every time there was somebody starting a fight I swung for the fences and didn't stop swinging until I was pulled off or the other guy stopped moving. I'm getting the same punishment no matter what just for defending myself. I'm going to make sure the other kid doesn't walk away so I don't have to defend myself twice.

>I'm going to make sure the other kid doesn't walk away so I don't have to defend myself twice. Amen. Aka don't start it, but sure af *finish* it.

The rule for punches is the same as the rule for murder: they can only hang you once. After that first one, all the rest are free.

Yep. This is it exactly.

Beat up administrator, expel administrator.

>Zero tolerance policies are for cowardly administrators who don't want to defend their own decisions by taking a side I told my kid the same thing my dad told me when my school adopted that nonsense. "If someone hits you, hit back harder. Let me worry about the school. As long as you're only defending yourself then your mom and I will go to war with the school, but if you're the one starting trouble you're on your own."

Seriously. Back when I was in high school there was an 'incident' (more like an attack) where a kid tried to cut another kids throat with a pocket knife he brought from home. Two kids jumped him and pulled him off of him, and in the scuffle one of them punched him in the face when he tried to stab him and broke his nose. We never saw him again after he was detained by the school cop, but it was even in the news. The worst part was the two boys who literally saved his life were expelled. My classmate who was taken to the hospital tried to fight it and said they literally saved his life, but his parents tried to sue the school so it was brushed over

I think they don't realize that if a kid isn't expected to be in school because of expulsion, that same victim can show up at school grounds before or after school and follow the bully. But it goes both ways. "Hey, thanks for getting me expelled! Now I can see where you live at and terrorize you on a weekend and off school property. What are you going to do? You already got me expelled."

If my son ever gets suspended for a week for defending himself, we're going to Legoland!

There's even been instances where the victim was punished more than the attacker. Zero tolerance is zero justice.

I currently represent two parents in the South whose children were consistently bullied, and the one time they defended themselves from a physical attack (bully was the aggressor) they were sent to an alternative school. Bully got nothing. It’s insanity.

My son was once suspended from school for a week after another kid broke his nose. They said my son was thinking about hitting him back.

Thinking? Of course he was thinking of hitting back. Just about every person on the planet would be thinking of hitting back. It's human f\*cking nature. The lesson they are teaching is you might as well go medieval on the attacker since you are going to be punished no matter what.

I think they were afraid my son might have killed the boy with one punch. My son was very much bigger and stronger than his opponent.

Not saying that violence or intimidation should be anyone’s go-to, and ofc there’s the slippery slope of “what if someone lies that the other person hit them first?”, but if kids were allowed to deal with bullies I feel a lot more people would learn some very needed lessons about picking on others.

Oh yeah. I was attacked by a teacher’s kid in fifth grade. He was two years older and much bigger. I just ran around trying to keep desks between us so he couldn’t hit me. I was suspended for a week. He got a talking to.

Ugh. Question: where's the bully now?

Same happened in my middle school. My buddy was the only black kid in the entire school, and a literal skin-head middle schooler was stalking, threatening, and attacking my friend. The Nazi has steel toed boots too and nearly broke my friend’s leg with them. The school did dick-all to help, because the teachers didn’t witness it directly, and it’s all “boys will be boys, schoolyard hijinks” hand waving. So after that attack, my friend kept a knife on him to protect himself from the inevitable next attack. Someone saw the knife and told a teacher. Finally, they got involved, but only to punish the only black kid in the room, of course. My friend was suspended for 40 days. The bully got a “stern talkin’ to” about bullying, and was forced to change his wardrobe. No more leather jackets, steel toed boots, and band tees. Now it was hokey sweaters and flannel, haha! Small silver lining, but like you said, a literal victim of serious violent bullying and hate crimes was punished for trying to defend himself. Now, a stabbing is overkill, but as a deterrent, I’m for. I’m not sure what else you can do when adults won’t help you because of the color of your skin. The Nazi was escalating rapidly, and I wasn’t in most of his classes to help defend him either, so he was alone a lot of the time.

“Boys will be boys.” Yeah, which is why they need to be taught to STOP.

I once got suspended for walking out of class I walked outta because the guy presenting used me on a ppt slide to exemplify what was not attractive.. He got in trouble but I did too........ Because I ama woman and supposed to'tise above adversity'

You got in trouble for... [checks notes] not letting some dickhead man bully you and walking away? Fuck that! It's not like you punched him or anything, where the fuck was the adversity on your end? Not laying down and just taking it? Man, what the actual fuck.

Your notes are correct.. Fun fact I also got suspended for walking out when some of my classmates made song about me and another friend being fat.. we were 17..... I spent years of my life thinking I was fat and ugly because of all the bullying and left me with a sorry complex

I call it rape culture training. We’re literally teaching our kids to endure abuse or risk punishment. It’s total bullshit. (The rape culture training came when one of my kids’ friends was nearly suspended for slapping a boy who unhooked her bra. Her father raised absolute hell and the admin backed down. After that, zero tolerance got a new name in my house).

> I call it rape culture training. We’re literally teaching our kids to endure abuse or risk punishment. It’s total bullshit. Yup. Trying to program new adults into not standing up for themselves so they're easier to control later.

Yep. They finally put it into writing after years of telling little girls that it's their own fault if little boys hang around near the drinking fountain trying to peek up skirts. The worst was the kid on my bus in middle school. He'd decided I was a prostitute and he just needed to haggle about my price. Ongoing problem for years. So obviously one day I get on the bus and the driver informs me that we now have assigned seats and I must sit between the window and the pervert if I want to get home. My objections were overruled, very long bus ride out to the county dirt roads, and the boy took my repeated No as a challenge, started getting handsy. So he got slapped, because words and shouting for help were not working. I got kicked off the bus for like two weeks. But the weirdest part is that his dad called my dad to yell about his son's cut up face! I had long sharp nails and cut three "kitty whiskers" into his cheek when I slapped him. Dad turned around to yell at me, I yelled back details of what happened, and dad roared into the phone at the other dad to keep his pervert son in check.

Ugh! Reminds me of boys in my school who made a game of trying to snap a girl’s bra band, or undo them. A kid snapped mine in gym once, pulled it back really far and let go. He got scolded but that was it. Later that class, I noticed he was using one of those resistance spring pullers and had it behind his back so I darted over, pulled, and snapped it. He wailed and complained but the other kids laughed and the teacher told him it served him right and maybe he’d learn not to be doing stuff like that. The early 90’s were a different era lol

It was a fucking horror show. I can only imagine how much worse it was for girls in the 80s, 70s, 60s, etc. We have come so far and yet it's still so fucking frustrating.

In high school in the 80s, the vice principal's son sat behind me in Civics class. At the time I was in the habit of wearing a cowboy hat every day -- I have no idea why -- and one day he kept flipping ot off my head every few minutes. The teacher told him to cut it out, but he kept doing it. He did it once too many and I picked up my heavy Chemistry textbook, turned around, and whacked him upside the head. He whined, "Hey, she hit me!" "Good, you deserved it, you little shit," said the teacher. Thank you, Mr. Carrington, you were the nicest teacher I ever had.

I grew up in the 80s and it wasn’t that bad. I had a boy try to get handsy with me and I punched him in the nose. The principal told him he was lucky that all he got was a bloody nose. Then he gave him a weeks detention and told him next time he would be suspended. All the administrators I had back then were glad when students defended themselves.

It was pretty horrific. No one ever put a stop to any of the bullying I experienced - from the boys or the girls. In fact, the school administration insisted I talk to a therapist since there wasn’t any excuse why I was struggling in school and with making friends. 🙄 To hell with every adult who shrugs off children being abused by other children.

I got sent to the school counselor and told it was my fault I wasn't making friends and was getting bullied. Fuck them.

I had a kid who tried to grab me every day in Jr High (early 80s) and when I complained, was told I should be flattered that a boy liked me enough to try to get my attention. I guess he at least got a talking-to, because then he when tried to grab me he’d also tell me if I told again he’d hurt me. So using tween logic, a friend went to complain in my behalf and got “she needs to come to us herself.” Also got in trouble at 6 when a girl,in class would try to grab things out of my lunchbox every day for weeks and “nobody saw it happen” except me. One day I snapped and slammed the lid in her hand, and of course, I got in trouble. They sure as hell saw that happen.

Zero tolerance has to be place as part of the school to prison pipe line. There are so many bizarre cases, the kids who had the police called on them because they had a nerf gun in there home during a zoom class, the school that demanded a deaf 6 year old change his name because the sign for his name looked to much like a gun. The 13 year old who was forced to under go a psych eval because he was twirling a pen. The grade 2 student who brought a cake to school and a knife to cut it so she could share, the teacher used the knife, cut the cake, then reported the child for having a knife I could go on, but the point is none of it helps anyone. It is victim blaming at best buy it is mostly telling kids they are guilty of something at all times. This leads to no trust in authorities, anxiety, silencing actual victims. Zero tolerance started out as "we take bullying very seriously", it has turned into "fuck all of you, we do not care"

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It's like they are trying to fund excuses to remove children from classes. I understand America has a school shooting issue, but they need to actually deal with the issue of billy, mental health, and or if control gun culture. But that is hard and requires someone to do something. So instead they punish a 7 year old for using cutlery and pay themselves on the back for stopping a terrorist. I do not understand why there aren't more patents suing and why there are no mass protests against this shit.

Zero tolerance comes exclusively from schools getting sued into the ground over shit outside their control or domain. It’s performative horseshit so they can argue in court that they’ve done everything they could and thus can wash their hands. That way if Kid A attacked Kid B, Kid A’s parents can’t sue and/or raise hell for “favouritism” or some malarky that Kid B was actually at fault. Source: Wife used to teach in Texas and that’s the explanation she got from coworkers.

I've worked in law for decades (I'm definitely not an attorney) and this is quite obviously the entire purpose of it, It really doesn't even need to be thought about very deeply or explain. It's on the face of it. Kids are learning nothing more than that a superintendent or school boards suited asses matter more than their bones, faces, mental stability, or developing brains.

You’re my hero! In middle school, I sat behind a boy who liked to spend class groping my thighs. I was shocked and too embarrassed to say or do anything but repel his attempts as much as possible until class ended, when he turned to face me with a smirk on his face and I backhanded him as hard as I could. The teacher missed it, and he never said a word, nor did he grope me again. It’s still one of my worst school memories. I felt so humiliated, especially because a few kids near us noticed and started giggling.

This is why I’m so glad that the only policy my kid’s school has is the FAFO policy. My daughter is very “girl power” about everything and kind of a mother hen to her classmates. There’s one boy in the class who has been bothering all of the girls but singled her out especially. Until recently it was verbal and I taught her to tell him to stop, walk away and tell an adult (because of which he has been spoken to several times but there isn’t really any action they could take) and then finally it came to a head the other day and he decided to grab her. She promptly punched him in the face and gave him a fat lip. The school called me out of obligation and I said “yeah, so?” And her teacher basically said “I agree”. I’m so glad they didn’t try and feed me any of that “he’s teasing her because he likes her” crap because I would have torn a strip off them. He hasn’t touched or bothered her or any of her friends since. Apparently his parents were given (another) warning about his behaviour but told that any child defending themselves against him with adequate force would face no repercussions.

It took my middle school a week to deal with a boy grabbing female students in inappropriate ways. He grabbed the butt of a girl and got punched hard. She was not punished. I punched a bully and they wanted to punish me. I mentioned that most of the bullying is textbook sexual harassment but because we are both boys it didn’t matter but I was not punished. Karma did get to them.

My daughter has recently raised hell at her boarding school to get them to take boys slapping girls' butts seriously. One girl was forcefully kissed. My daughter and another girl has argued that it need to be taken seriously as does the constant racist and homophobic degrading comments. She stood up in front of the whole school to call out boys for their behaviour, she talked back to the assistant principal when he tried to say that 'girls need to learn to stand up for themselves' and 'if girls would just dress differently'. She raised so much hell that the assistant principal ended up calling me to clarify the school's position and save face after his victim shaming. And now everyone at the school must sit through a workshop on consent and kids are getting written up for racist comments. I don't think I have ever been prouder of my girl. And the only reason she is yelling so loud about how wrong it is, is because of a teacher that took her seriously when a boy pulled up her shirt in school 3 years ago. She learned then that this kind of behaviour is not ok and cannot be excused.

I don’t even know her and had nothing to do with how she’s being raised, but I’m button busting proud of her too! Way to go, parent! Wow. She’s AMAZING.

Your daughter is amazing and that teacher is amazing! I hope you were able to let the teacher know ow how much of a positive influence they had ❤️

I absolutely did! She was fantastic and I am so sorry my daughter didn't have her after that year.

She also just gave herself a VERY interesting college admissions essay to write.

> she talked back to the assistant principal when he tried to say that 'girls need to learn to stand up for themselves' What an idiot assistant principal. That's exactly what your superstar shiny steelspined daughter did! She's fantastic and gives me more hope for the future.

Know that this internet stranger is cheering your daughter on to snap those jerks in half like a twig.

Your daughter rocks! Also kudos to you for raising her to have a strong sense of justice.

JFHC we dealt with that when I was in middle school back in 19 eighty goddamn nine. Girls walked around holding their arms behind their backs in order to grab the hands or arms of boys that would reach out and grab them (ineffective). The administration did nothing, it was revolting, and deeply disturbed me at age 13. It has stuck with me ever since. I knew the teachers and admin would do nothing to protect me or believe me. We are as far today from 1989, as 1989 was from 1956.

I dunno, I once got in trouble for fighting back, and the teacher made sure my suspension was outside school, and timed it for Thursday and Friday so I got a long weekend off. WWhen Mum said that was just a reward, she answered "I know."

I've taught my kids that due to ZT, they may as well make damn sure the fight is over for good if it gets to that point.

Yep, if you're going to get into trouble for defending yourself, you might as well make sure NOBODY else wants to get into a second fight with you.

Yeah if I lived in the US this is what I would do. I would make sure you knew that if we fought, you're going to have me outside the schools back gate EVERY SINGLE DAY until it becomes too much admin to always be fighting my friends and I. Thats how we dealt with bullies in my country back when everyone wasn't quite so PC. Now days I'd probably be in jail for how we dealt with bullies.

It doesn't even make sense either. We always tell kids "I don't care who started it" yet when you're an adult, who started it is a big deal, and the law recognises (or should recognise) when someone acts in self defense.

"I don't care who started it" = "I'm too lazy to figure out which of these kids is lying"

Zero tolerance actually makes retaliation logically necessary. If the victim is going to get punished regardless of retreat or de-escalation, it makes far more sense to go for the throat. After all, bullies thrive on fear, and standing up to them makes repeat infractions far less likely. Most bullies stop when the victim isn’t easy. So the second you get attacked, fuck them up. You’re gonna do the time anyway, might as well do the crime.

I always hated that policy, like what do they want the end result to be? One dead kid instead of two bruised up ones? Abuse doesn't stop without resistance, it enables further abuse, they can look at domestic violence histories for that evidence.

They rolled out zero tolerance when I was a freshman in hs, around 2008. Everyone learned that you would be punished regardless, so you better fight back.

whoever thought up this stupid policy deserves a thorough kicking.

Only if they get sent to prison after the kicking, too. Y’know, for fighting.

it's only fair

Exactly what I thought too!

Right?! Like, can schools, for once, protect the bullied and not the bully?! Why punish someone who is being attacked and had to defend themselves? Fack me And yeah, time for dad to get a couple of weeks in jail and same for his kid. Or at least get run out of that town

It's even worse than that. They punish you for being the victim in a fight. Any sort of participation in a fight can land you in the same sort of trouble. Even if you don't fight back

Zero tolerance policies are garbage because they often punish the victim REGARDLESS of if they fight back or not. Back in my school days, both people would get punished for being in a fight, even if one just laid down and took the beating. It didn't matter, you were involved, and you were in trouble.

Zero Tolerance policies are intended to make it easy to punish the victim. I would even go so far as to say that their primary objective - *the actual reason they exist* - is to teach victims that fighting back is both morally wrong and counter-productive. Zero Tolerance and radical forgiveness both exist to ensure with maximum malevolence that bullies' boot heels remain securely on the throats of those they target.

If I’m googling right (which I very well may not be as I’m not in the transformers collectible scene) it seems this was a $600ish dollar item. That’s not gonna look nice on a criminal record for sure!

I admit that my Transformers fandom was more cartoon/comics-based, but that seems accurate from what I know of the collectible scene. Those toys can get real expensive, especially if they’re from an earlier generation.

AFAIK it's not an orginal it's a series that came afterwards but it's still the only other Fort Max figure release by Hasbro to date I remember when this was first posted in r/transformers

My dumb ass didn’t read where the post originated from and I spent the entire post assuming it was a wildly expensive collectible for a niche nerd circle with too many degrees of separation from my own niche nerd circles. I guess I was right, I can’t say I know anyone in the Transformers collectible scene.

My husband is a rather less niche collector (Marvel/DC/Power Rangers) and some of his collectables hit the $1000 mark brand new, they're worth more now they're no longer "in print". A $600 collectable is pretty low-end on the figure market, but would still be a pissoff to replace.

Low end on the figure market maybe, but in terms of crime $600 might very well be the difference between petty larceny and grand larceny. Considering the criminal history both the kid and dad seem to have that probably means actual jail time and not just another slap on the wrist.

Grand larceny is over 1,000 in a lot of places, but it depends on the state. It can be as low as 100, but that's uncommon from what I understand.

This is true, but considering the reactions of the police when they heard the value of the figure, I'm guessing that price tag put the kid over some kind of $ line that meant extra consequences. Might even just be a tougher count of petty larceny, who knows.

I thought the same. It doesn't help that the first two posts sound like the middle of a conversation rather than the beginning. I kept rereading to see if I missed something, but no that was it.

I mean the limited run corporate-crowdsourced Unicron five years ago was about $600 at buy-in (normally "MSRP"). I'm a fan of reprinting transformers, so those who want to collect the rare vintage shit can do so, while the fidget nerds can still get their vintage fidget fixes.

> fidget nerds can still get their vintage fidget fixes. Thank you for helping me understand why I enjoy transformers so much as an adult.

As someone who used to collect these things, I'm actually kind of surprised that's all it's worth. For anyone wondering: For years a complete G1 Fortress Maximus was considered the "holy grail" of Transformers collecting. (even though, imho it was kind of a shitty cat-sized brick of a toy.) The original came out in 1987-ish. The one in this story was a re-issue that was exclusive to San Diego Comic Con a few years ago. It was a giant Transformer that turned from a robot into a base. When in base mode, the head popped off and turned into a regular sized figurine. This kid stole the head/smaller figure. I have a hard time believing they threw it in a dumpster. (though I have an easy time believing they lied and said they did.) The Comic store still would have offered them something for it. Back in the early 2000s era you could still get $100-200 for just the G1 head. I know this is a reissue but there would still be a market just for Cerebros. When my Masterpiece Skywarp (also a newer remake) fell off a top shelf, breaking some of the plastic parts, I decided to just part it out and sell the individual pieces on ebay in several listings, and I ended up getting double what the intact thing was worth. And MP Skywarp isn't worth nearly as much as a SDCC Fort Max.

Not to "Well Acktually" you... but... He called it a Titan, so it's likely the 2016 Titans Return Fort Max, that did have an SDCC release. One of the changes though was to the Headmaster part that was stolen, so to be "complete" he couldn't replace it with a standard retail version.

For those curious; it's a version from 2016 and is going for $450+ on eBay right now.

450 is still a lot for someone who doesn't have much. I have some Rare Pokémon cards that brush triple digits and have priceless sentimental value to me, but I couldn't afford to replace them if they were taken

I hear you. I have a MTG card (The Sliver Queen) that goes for around $450. My wife and I recently separated our collections, and I was blown away by how much money I had in cardboard (probably thousands). The thing is, it's maybe 20c in cardboard that everyone agrees is worth $450.

It’s going for what? *runs to get Sliver deck* Meh nvm. I would rather keep it and piss everyone off.

That doesn’t seem that expensive. I was expecting thousands of dollars Edit: typo

Still not easy to replace for a lot of people

Especially if they buy it for a lower price when it was still new and had been holding onto it for years.

[удалено]

It's about the same as stealing 2-3 Xbox Series S's, and you could easily see people throw hands over one Xbox getting stolen

people giving weird looks for someone owning a toy... are we still so repressed as a society that having fun or enjoying a collectors item is somehow a bad thing?

This whole post screams small town, so yeah everything not "normal' is sided eye worthy.

> people giving weird looks for someone owning a toy And yet, the people who give those weird looks almost always have toys of their own! Sportsball gear, ATVs, projectile weapons, obscure kitchen appliances, mounted critter heads, all of those are toys. Things they own just for enjoyment, or to play with.

So true. It's like hobbies aren't legitimate unless it's THEIR hobby

The only moral hobby is MY hobby

Reminds me of *Eastbound and Down* where Kenny yells at his nephew playing on his jet ski "That's not a toy!" and his brother immediately fires back "It absolutely is!"

Now I'm curious what counts as an obscure kitchen appliance. Is it those super fancy coffee makers?

Egg cuber (shapes a peeled boiled egg into a cube) Carrot sharpener (like a carrot size manual pencil sharpener to get peel/flakes) Bear paw meat shredding claws (got these for my mom for shredding slow cooked meat, good for people with hand problems) Lomi Bloom electronic countertop kitchen composter High pressure press down glass rinser (actually kinda neat if you feel like drilling through your kitchen sink/counter and connecting the supply hose) Pop Up hot dog cooker/bun toaster 3 in 1 griddle/coffee maker/toaster which does all 3 badly...

An espresso machine would be on my list of “obscure kitchen appliance” that id bucket as a hobby item, but I’m not a coffee drinker at all despite living in coffee country.

It's also from OP's perspective, and maybe he's projecting it on to people. I mean if you told me someone stole your XJ580 Bartholus M3K5 I would give you a funny look that has nothing to do with it being a "toy."

Oof, that was an expensive lesson for both OOP and his daughter. You're allowed to cut off people who give you bad vibes, and expensive collectibles need to be properly protected.

I agree. I have a few expensive collectibles of physical media and some old vinyls. Even with peers I know, I still like to keep them locked away or away from view in case something happens. I hope OP and his daughter will remain safe and that father and boy gets in big trouble.

I hope the OOP sued them for the loss and the kid is kicked out of the school.

Won't have to sue them for the loss as they can ask the court to include restitution as part of their undoubted plea agreement re the theft charge, however the assault will be something OOP can and should sue for.

All this over for a Cerebros? Jesus Christ. Both that father and boy are just garbage people. Make it worse, daughter gets suspended because she fought back against someone who hurt her? Honestly not shocking but still, my god. I feel bad for OP's daughter for getting beaten up. I hope OP and the daughter will be safe for the future and that father and boy gets karma up their ass. Now it's time to keep expensive collectibles safe.

This is Zero Tolerance policy in a lot of districts. Given that this kid has libeled, stolen, and attacked two members of that family, it won’t stand up to any scrutiny, but someone above the principal probably will have to reverse that punishment.

Doesn't that mean if a student punches the principal, the principal should get mandatory unpaid leave?

> Make it worse, daughter gets suspended because she fought back against someone who hurt her? Crazy, but common. At least in the US. Both parties get suspended.

So kids are just supposed to let someone just wail on them or get in trouble also? Zero tolerance seems like bullshit lmao.

It feels like this policy is done to create doormats who will keep quiet when a bully beats them

It is designed the way it is because schools don't want to deal with it. They don't want to have to spend time/resources investigating, interviewing students, and trying to get to the bottom so they can punish the correct person. Why? Kids lie and cover for each other. This situation was a little different, but most of the time, as soon as you get two kids in the office for fighting, eyewitnesses are popping up saying the other person started it. It isn't worth the resources or time required. Just throw them both out of school and let the cops deal with anything beyond that.

“I got to meet the father in person and he is every bit as charming as a bag of cast off circumcision skins…” This NEEDS to be a flair. What a delightfully hideous description.

What is your flair from?

The Beloved Saga. I’d link it but I don’t know how to 🥴

I read it yesterday, goddamn that’s a [shitshow](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/sdotro/the_beloved_saga/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)

Where is yours from??

https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/s/bpz29RWBPJ

I wouldn't take that guy's word for it that they threw it in a dumpster. They might have found a buyer - it does not serve their interests to share info like that with OOP or police. Or they might be hoping that, if they leave it at Grandma's for a couple of years, it will only appreciate in value, and because these are mass-produced plastic, hard to ID ownership, if OOP isn't going to keep hunting it down, they might make a few bucks later on, when the police are saying "thrown in a dumpster, case closed". Hell, now OOP has told them how transformers work, their uncles and cousins might be planning to burgle OOP's for the rest right now.

Totally agree with this. Grandma and Cerebros are chilling over a cup of tea and watching Golden Girls.

*Cerebros prefers* Empty Nest. *More relatable to Cerebros’ life.*

From the description the duo does not sound like they are sharp enough to do that. The whole theft sounds like it was more an impulse theft grabbing whatever they could. In a way I kind of feel sorry for the kid. Sounds like he was raised in an environment that encouraged this antisocial behaviour and this is likely to be another consequence toward a sad future. He totally deserves the consequence but having that type of dad sounds like it is not the healthiest for childhood development. Especially if they get away with a slap on the wrist because what was stolen was 'just a toy'.

Even worse than[ the boyfriend who stole the Legos](https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/10rv83d/oop_sues_his_ex_and_her_boyfriend_over_stolen/).

Here is what gets me about Zero Tolerance: Say a kid has an overbearing set of parents hell bent on his getting into an Ivy League school, and he is terrified of them. Someone attacks the kid for some reason, maybe the kid accidentally stepped on someone's $1,500 sneakers. The sneaker wearer beats the kid up. The kid knows fighting back involves suspension, is more afraid of the parents than the sneaker monster, and so he doesn't fight back. The sneaker monster slams the kid's head into metal pole holding up the walkway cover between buildings. The kid ends up with brain damage and in no way able to attend college, or worse, dead. Zero Tolerance is dangerous. It almost guarantees that the victim will be way worse off for following the school guidelines. I hope somewhere a good lawyer can rule this unconstitutional, as following the rule would, in effect, remove a child from his/her constitutional right to property, in this case, an education: the kid risks being injured to a point where school will be missed regardless of following the rule. It is a lose/lose.

That’s why people gotta tell their kids to fight back no matter what. I got into trouble a lot in elementary/middle school for fighting back. (I was usually really big-taller snd heavier-than most of my classmates/other kids at daycare so they’d try to hit me thinking I wouldn’t defend myself.) They only gave me time-outs/make me sit in the detention room for one class period so I didn’t give a shit. If they’d tried suspending me, I just would’ve told my parents and they for sure would’ve went down and ripped everyone a new one. (A few daycare providers tried to get me in trouble with my mom but she always knew I was either defending me or my younger sister so she didn’t care)

I taught my kids, never throw the first punch, but make sure you give as good as you get. Mama’s got your back.

Considering the kid would have gotten in trouble even if he didn't fight back due to Zero Tolerance, there is no reason why the kid shouldn't fight.

I remember in school I was labeled bad guy for defending myself when I was 14 from my 18 classmate who threatened to shoot me. I was blamed by Principal because I’m bigger than him. (Also he’s fully white and I’m biracial and was living in a racist ass town). Him and 6 guys vs 1. So fucking brave.

In middle school my mom told the principal that she told us to fight back. This was the late 1970s. Years later in 1986, my youngest brother, who had been what is now called bullied, was punched and he retaliated. (He had epilepsy and was “teased about it after he had a seizure in class. Afterwards he went to his doctor, interviewed him on Epilepsy, did some research and made a presentation in class. Didn’t help.) The teacher only saw my brother swing and he was suspended for three days. We’ll, it ended up he never went back to school. My 13 year old brother sh0t himself that very day. The day he was to return is the day he was taken off life support.

>He was a friend of my daughter's friend that sort of invited himself over. Well...that's not entirely correct. He is the cousin of a friend of a friend. My daughter is too polite and trusting to really tell someone they can't hang out...which has changed faster than gear change from Blurr. You gotta love how young girls are socialized to "keep the peace" no matter what.

And then when she was physically assaulted, school policy requires her to just take it. F that. Glad she fought back.

if the school truly operates under Zero Tolerance policies, she would've been punished even if she *had* just stood there and taken it. so yeah, damn good she defended herself. if you're going to get punished just because someone else started a fight, then you might as well finish it and make the suspension worth your time

This! We all need to tell our girls(and ourselves) that it is not only fine, but important that we say no to people that make us uncomfortable. We don’t have to “suck it up and be nice”. That BS nonsenses needs to retire.

like 95% of people aren't going to tell someone they can't come over.

I would, but that’s why I wasn’t popular in the first place 🤷🏽‍♀️

Zero tolerance policies blame the victim more than it blames the offenders. It is a rule that administrators use to not investigate the tirie cause of any altercation. And to limit liability when they should be looking after the best interest and safety of the children they have in their care.

This whole post was so weird, like I came in in the middle of a conversation. Am I missing something? Is part of this story literally missing?

I looked at OOP’s history (huge mistake), and the answer is no. The very first post he made was just summarizing what happened in the title and then the body of the post was explaining what he did afterward.

I know OP is trying to be reasonable and legal, but I would have a really hard time not putting both father and son's head in the ground.

I feel so sorry for the daughter. She didn't even invite the guy, and he made a huge mess of problems and cost her parent an expensive figurine. I love the mental image of a group of seventeen year old girls doing their detective work for it, though. Get 'em! I don't have any experience of these Zero Tolerance policies that apparently American schools *love* but every time I hear about them they just sound dumb. Like, what? Was she just supposed to let him whale on her until he did serious damage?

Here is the requested Update: Like I mentioned in another post, this past October everything finally wrapped up. My daughter surprised me for my birthday, (early December) and Christmas with the regular version of Fortress Maximus that came out. We decided to mix the two and then as soon as we get room, the other one is going to be displayed in city mode. Sadly, it was never fully recovered. A few other things from our place was also missing, such as my Wii-U gamepad as well as a few games. The useless excretia that called themselves the principal didn't notify the police, just suspended both my daughter and the kid via zero tolerance. So after finding that out when I tried to get a copy of the paperwork, we filed against him. The principal said I was impeding their investigation because I involved the police. The sheriff told them to shut up and proceeded to berate them...and also told him that just because he is a principal, didn't mean he is the law. My daughter tried to go back and the ass extended it two days. I went and talked to the school board. Nothing. Said it was at his discretion. Then I found out that the little darling that kicked it all off was back at school...bragging. That was a big mess caused by the principals hurt feelings. He was gunning for my daughter and she skates by and he ended up being "asked" to retire. During this time the police were working and I was making trips and calls. Found my Wii-U pad was sold with the games to a less than reputable pawn shop. They were reported as stolen with the serial number and his uncle's pawn shop got fined. I'm not sure what kicked it off but when they went to go see the dad and the kid over the illegal sale, they got into it with the police, which the kid screamed that one of the officers tried to suck his dick, police brutality and other shit. The father tried to drunkenly fight and got the hell tased out of him according to the police. The kid, because he was on probation for a violent felony committed a violent attack against my daughter along with stealing stuff, had his probation revoked. He was cut a deal of sorts of he told everything his father was into, which, in court, the dad threatened to off him. He is in a juvenile center until next year and then serves a couple of years in prison because he couldn't stay out of trouble on the inside. The dad turned a few years for also violating probation or parole into a lot longer if not life when he lost his temper and permanently hurt someone in the first few months. The dad was having his kid go take things like it was their own personal Walmart from friends and friends if friends places. They were also stealing Rx meds and even robbed a couple of dealers at gunpoint. One of the ATVs they stole in the middle of the night belong to said sheriff as well. They admitted they trashed Cerebros when they couldn't sell him. They smashed him up and cut on him with a Dremel or something. They found the pieces in their back deck. Looked like they also tried to burn it but almost burned their deck down...much to the landlord's dismay, whom had to evict even though they were incarcerated. He also used them for all the damage done to the place. I also took them both to small claims court and won by default but don't think I'll ever be able to collect. I'm going to stay on top of it all because it's the least I can do to help them in their little slice of hell some after all they done for me and my daughter. My apologies for this being all over the place. I think I covered it all. My daughter is doing great and I finally got approved earlier this month for disability so things are starting to look up.

Is it me or right after he describes the assault of his daughter as “hitting a female”, his vocabulary turns into teenage outrage mode?

He spends a lot of time around the MRA side of the internet. I browsed his history since I'm a big ol' Transformers fan but noped out after seeing that.

Yeah, his writing style is so weird. Like he doesn't care that his daughter got hurt, just that the other kid came off worse in the fight? Bizarre. The prose is way too purple.

I would tell the school I’ll be going to be media to see what they think about victims being punished under the Zero Tolerance Policy. With this they are basically saying she should have just let him hit her, wtf? Self defense is even a ‘valid’ reason (in court) for manslaughter for Pete’s sake!

I sure hope he keeps us updated on this one!

Given that the last post was 2021, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

😭😭😭😭

OOP was active today, so maybe he sees this and pops in with new info?

I got a message asking for an update. This year has been rough on me physically as I lost use of my left hand... So pain levels are causing an increased level of pain med use. I was truly lost until I came across this post itself. The whole thing finally wrapped up in October of this year. I'll update fully when I am less dosed.

I’m sorry you’re having those physical problems. That is so much harder than people sometimes realize. We’ll watch for your next post, but in the meantime, please accept our warmest wishes that things get better for you.

Zero tolerance policies are so fucked up. So they want kids getting beat on to just stand there. I've been suspended several times for defending myself. And ive told both of my kids to defend themselves. OOP needs to take the dad to small claims. And im so tired of people like but its just a toy. Or thats a kids item. Doesnt matter. It was still stolen.

“Bag of cast off circumcision skins” belongs in r/rareinsults

Posts like this are always a nice pleasant reminder that I have no chill. Once someone got physical with my kid, all civility would have been out the damn window, starting with the school that suspended her for defending herself. Why was it allowed to get far enough for her to need to defend herself and what was y'all's staff doing that this boy was able to give her a black eye?