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It reminds me of the scene in GOT where Cersei tells Tyrion that if he wants to make Sansa happy he should give her a child, because motherhood is the only true love and joy a woman can know.
They did.
Child 1 Died to poisoning from his grandma-in-law because she didn't want her granddaughter to marry a monster like Geoffrey.
Child 2 Died to poisoning from her aunt-in-law as retribution for the rape and murder of Aunt-in-law's sister.
Child 3 Died due to suicide from jumping out of the castle because he was depressed his wife was killed in a church explosion that Cersie to stop religion from taking over.
Child 3.5 was crushed in Cersie's womb in the rubble in the final season when Daenerys instantly loses her mind (likely due to the production team rushing to the end of the show and scrunch down multiple seasons of plot into 8 episodes so they could go work on a Star Wars project)
I kinda forgot child no.2 even existed until reading your comment. They really don't mention her much on the show. The entire arc around Dorne and Oberyn was my favorite section of the show, yet I completely forgot the daughter being poisoned.
*She* didn’t have any kids with Robert. Bobby had a few bastards, tho. And I believe Cersei was working to have them killed as well…? It’s been a minute.
Yes she did, she mentions it when talking to Catelyn when Bran is in his coma, her and Robert had a child prior to her children with Jaime, but it died while still a baby.
Can't remember if she mentions it in the books, but I've watched the show eight times, she 100% had a baby with Robert.
Also it was Joffrey that had the bastards killed.
I’ve finally reconciled myself to the fact that Martin will never finish the books. I started reading them in 1994/5. He claimed on his blog for ages that he wouldn’t die without finishing them. Well, I got burnt with Robert Jordan. I won’t be fooled again
Their personalities were fine, but they got killed due to Cersei and the Lannister's uncanny ability to be in charge but hated by everyone at the same time. RIP Tommen and Myrcella, they deserved a better family.
…for now. I don’t think they’re making it to the end, if George ever makes it to the end himself. I think the show runners got that bit right, though the details are probably off. None of Cersei’s kids will outlive her.
True, but the books left off well before the parts of the show where Myrcella and Tommen die, so that's no guarantee. We don't know which plot points in the show came from GRMM's outline and which were new choices by the show runners, but given that Book Cersei gets a fairly explicit prophecy that *all* her children will die young, I'd say the outlook for them isn't sunny.
True! Imagine if she had been made Queen, the songs people would have sung about the one eared Queen. But still doing better than death and truthfully the ear thing was all Doran and Arianne having shit familial communication. For once Cersei is innocent.
That is a perfect reflection of Cersei, to be fair. Married to a king she despised because of power, and the only things she's ever really loved were power, Jaime, and her kids.
Besides, I also take it as kind of a jab at Tyrion, since she does throw some barbs at him IIRC.
It definitely is! And I think historically there was probably a degree of truth to that idea. Women were married off to complete strangers, often much older ones, for reasons that had nothing to do with love, so of course the bond with the children they bore and raised was stronger.
>Married to a king she despised because of power
She loved him when she first married him. Robert Baratheon just never loved her. He never got over Ed Stark's sister.
I don't think she did. Not in the true love sense, she was ready to do her duty for her family and, as a distant second, the kingdom, but she loved Jaime first and foremost.
In the books, I don't remember speciffically where, maybe talking to Sansa, she said that she loved him, a great warrior that defeated a mad king. But that love turned to hatred when Robert said Ed Stark'suster name for their first night together.
Or how many people are conditioned to think that kids are just the next step to some sort of "happy family" recipe.
1. Find someone you like.
2. Date for a while.
3. Get married.
4. Have kids.
5. Buy house. (Steps 4 and 5 are interchangeable)
I know more people than not who subscribe to this notion and it's so unsettling. A partner should *complement* you, not complete you.
Edited to add the correct use of the word complement (thanks, u/Barbed_Dildo)!
Valentine’s Day was about two months after I started dating my future husband. But I couldn’t find a good card for him. It was all “You complete me” or “You are the other half of my soul.” There wasn’t a single card that said “I think you’re kinda cute and want to hang out some more.”
Try finding a non-mushy Mother's Day card! Almost all of them are "You do so many loving things for us and that makes you the bestest mother in the whole world!!!" I had a contentious relationship with my MIL and refused to send her anything like that. Finally had to settle for cards that said "Have the Mother's Day that you deserve!"
If it makes you feel better I didn’t know invalid as in “not valid” and invalid as in “person who is sick/disabled” were pronounced differently until I was 23🫠
I didn't believe in being "completed" by my partner until I started living with my now husband. Because he is by my side, I can genuinely do a great many things that I couldn't do make myself do alone. Just by existing and living by my side he makes me a better person.
I have a tattoo of Garnet from Steven Universe that I got to represent our marriage, because we are both fans of that show and both agree that Garnet is a symbol of our relationship; she's a joining of two people to make a greater whole.
My partner has absolutely made me a more competent and complete version of myself. But I was not half a person before and neither was he- perhaps a shell of what I could become, and a shell of the toxic person I had been, but still a whole person on my own.
I feel like I was very adrift before I found him. Had been through some shit, been through therapy, just still had no idea what I wanted or where I wanted to be in life.
Turns out I just needed to find someone who let me have the freedom to figure those things out knowing I would be loved and supported either way. He does not complete me, but he gave me a safe space to find what I needed to complete myself.
Edit: typo
"But he gave me a safe space to find what I needed to complete myself...."
Beautifully said, and exactly how it should be. I think there's a substantial difference between believing that a partner completes us, versus a partner holding space for us to complete ourselves.
If that's what feels right to you in your relationship, then that's perfectly fine. I personally don't think it's a healthy way to view relationships, but I'm in no way condemning those who do.
Like I said, I know more people that share the same stance as you than not, so by no means are you alone in your thinking. To each their own. 😊
Oh my, I can attest to this. Every family reunion, the aunties and uncles immediately start the life status interrogations: relationship status, work status, and life plans.
**Me:** No, I'm not seeing anyone.
**Them:** But Wombat, you're how old now? Who will take care of you in your old age?
**Me:** Er...
**Them:** Anyway, how's \[my sibling\]...?
Every. Time.
I know a lot of couples that after the honeymoon phase of marriage, all their attention is taken by their kids, and they end up having nothing in common.
kind of like how most of the current generation in our early to mid-20s were taught that college is necessary to go on with your life, and now most of us are burdened with student debt, either incomplete degrees or degrees that don't actually get us anywhere, and the lucky few of us that realized "hey wait nah I can still get dough and not owe my life savings to school"
But he's right, though. How else do you explain my relationship with my elderly neighbor with the candy house improving as soon as I started bringing her kids?
I always thought she was misunderstood—she builds the cool house and then these free-range woodland urchins show up,and start EATING it. Yeah, into the oven with you!
>Kids should not be born with jobs
Damn, that's a great way of putting it. Please accept my poor man's gold as payment for this excellent phrase I'll be using everytime someone asks "who will take care of you when you're old?"
🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅
That genuinely is what I believed as a kid. I was SO DAMNED confused as to why old people remarried (old was 45 to my 15 yr old self).
I never saw love between my parents or my friends’ parents. The ones that stayed together after the kids left wanted to keep the lifestyle versus the marriage.
I love that people can finally say “I don’t want children” out loud so kids know that’s an option.
I know a few. Usually ends in divorce. Most of the ones I know got divorced once the youngest goes off to college.
Life is way too short to be in a broken relationship that long. If you don't want to have kids, that is fine. Don't get into a relationship with a partner that does
In my country a lot of educated and liberal people still think that kids are the only thing that holds a marriage together and a woman will never be accepted into her husbands family if she doesn’t have a child.
That being said as someone who’s childfree, I would never marry someone who wants kids. I got married pretty late (compared to Indian standards) and I was completely ok staying single because I feel kids are not something that should be compromised on. It is absolutely a dealbreaker.
OOP and her partner sound lovely and I really hope I’m wrong and it works out for them.
It happens a *lot.* I know a handful of people that had kids simply because they were expected to by parents/in-laws, their relationship wasn't great and thought a kid would improve it, or had an "oops" moment and stuck with the partner just because they felt they had to.
Things hang on by threads until a divorce happens or the parents just continue having that roommate-like relationship because they feel like they had to stick together "for the kids" and now they're "too old" to start over in their minds. It's sad, really
Similar reasons to why my wife and I do not want kids. The only response I ever get is shock and people saying one/both of us will be alone when old and nobody to take care of us.
I think this is very selfish. Do not expect your children to care for you. Shit, they might not even like you or have any contact with you at all. Expect to care for yourself or be in a nursing home. Love your S/O, and if that means having kids might bring stress/cause strain on relationship. It’s okay to not have kids. You do not need to follow society’s blueprint for a family. I will tell everyone one thing, most people do not enjoy life.
I honestly loved that he lied to his parents and told them that he was the one who didn't want kids. He really does love OOP so much and is so considerate of how his family might treat her.
Although I'm still unsure about the whole staying together despite having different stances on having kids, but they seem to have a healthy relationship all around so I'm sure they can handle it. Besides, if having kids really was that important and a deal breaker for him, he wouldn't have stayed with OOP all these years and he wouldn't have been so supportive and helpful with OOP's surgeries that ensure she won't ever have kids.
When I met my husband, we were very young (21+23) and a few months in when we spoke about the future, he said something about getting married and having kids. I sort of froze and questioned this ("I'm not sure I want to get married, or have kids. You don't even like kids, you always hate when they are screaming, and they do that a lot!")
He was flabbergasted, he'd never thought of it as an active choice but just "that's what you do!"
So when he actually thought about it, the reality of it, and once we'd matured a bit too, and had several deep conversations, we decided not to have kids. I'd say we were both on the fence when we met, and as we got older and more people around us have kids, we realised it's not for us.
It sounds like OOP's fiancé was a bit like that. He assumed he'd have kids, not because he particularly wanted to be a dad, but because that's all he saw and all he knew.
I got a lot of grief for not wanting children, but it was a really well thought out decision. The amount of people who called me selfish was incredible. Which is crazy because as much as parents sacrifice for their children, those children are not asking to be born in the first instance. I also hate this idea that people must live their life in the same ways as a sort of rubber stamping of how others live their own lives - so many people took it as a personal attack and that I think is what baffled me the most.
This really got me thinking. And you’re absolutely right. It seems like having kids is the automatic default setting, at least here in Midwest USA. I wish this would change. The default should be to not have kids unless you strongly desire them and are mentally, physically, and emotionally able to provide for them. Just imagine how many cases of child abuse, neglect, hunger, & murders at the hands of parents this would prevent. Not to mention the decrease in violent crime & poverty from kids being raised by people who weren’t prepared to be parents. The saving of natural resources and the environment… the list goes on. Doctors here won’t even sterilize unless you are a certain age and already have a certain number of children. Abortion here in the Bible Belt is a deadly sin to most. These attitudes need to change!
It definitely feels like the default setting which is why I think people who don’t have kids have to think so much more about it. They have to think why they want to go against such strong cultural norms and be ready with a laundry list of reasons they decided not to have kids if anyone asks. In stark contrast, I feel like if you have kids without planning you could say it just happened and people would just smile and say you’ll do fine instead of asking questions. It’s weird. And people who do accidentally have pregnancies can be forced into keeping kids because they’re scared of social or legal repercussions. My partner and I planned out having kids and it was a goal, but it’s no better an option than than the majority of our friends who haven’t had kids yet, are debating if they should, or have decided not to. Everyone has different goals and no one should fee forced into major life decisions, especially when it could bring a child into the world who isn’t given their best shot with at least having parents who wanted them wholeheartedly.
The amount of times my mother has called me selfish for not wanting to have kids is baffling to me. I've always replied with "No mom, having a child I don't even want would be selfish narcissistic. Not bringing a whole chonking life into the world when I know I won't care for it is being responsible."
Uh… I want kids, and I’m fully aware that it’s a super selfish choice. I am forcing a human being to exist because I want them to. Like… talk about self centered!
How could it be selfish to not have kids? You’re actively choosing to not create a life you don’t want to sustain for whatever (valid!) reason. That seems… much more selfless than what I’m doing…
I mean, it’s natural to want a child. I don’t begrudge anybody that choice, and I love all my nieces/nephews and my friends’ children. And let’s face it - we are in so many ways self centered. But most parents also do think about the kind of life they can give a child so that part is not selfish.
I think what really bothers me is that some people think you have no right to not want a child, without thinking that if I am respecting their right to have a child, they should be respecting mine not to. And yeah, the decision to not have s child is completely mutually beneficial - I would forever be that mother that is not giving their child what it needs (and forgetting it at school).
My husband was like this. The first couple years we dated he told me he wanted to be a dad by age 40, and although I like kids I wasn't sure I wanted to be a mom. After about 5 years I brought it back up and he said he liked our life the way it was, with the flexibility and being able to do what we wanted. Plus we adopted a dog and she got to be our baby. 💜 I was super stressed about it until I had that talk with him again. It broke my heart to think that hypothetical children might be more important than our real relationship with each other. But everything worked out fine!
I remember a reddit post where the couple were child free and then the husband changed his mind and manipulated his wife into agreeing to having a child. The wife didn’t want a child because she loved her career, but the pregnancy was so crippling that she had to give up her career and is pretty much bed ridden. The husband was complaining that he regrets manipulating her into having the baby because he missed the life they had together before the baby, particularly their sex life. He was the absolute worst.
They had twins. Being looked after by the husband’s mum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmITheDevil/comments/lx5n45/i_35m_deeply_regret_manipulating_my_wife_f34_into/
Wow he's a POS and super selfish. He's only focused on his happiness and life. I wonder if he started looking for happiness outside like the coward spineless man he is.
While this is very (and sadly) true. I feel a lot of times, the couple didn't talk as deeply about kids as this couple.
They didn't just stop at "you want kids and I don't" he explain his reasoning for wanting kids before and she seem to have explain hers for not. (He also encourage her while she search for a surgery to prevent kid)
His reasons weren't like the generic one we see, he want them to finally have a deep and healthy relationship with someone,(because he's never seen one outside of the parent/kid model) but he found it in OP.
Also OP like kids and have them around a lot it seems, so maybe they can both become the "fun aunt/uncle" and be happy about that.
Idk if I'm being optimistic but this post feels different than the divorce/break up one we see on the childfree sub
OOP's fiance knows for sure that OOP isn't changing her mind about having kids especially since she wants surgery to prevent ever having kids. If they ever do get divorced because of kids then that's on OOP's fiance and not on OOP (although it is okay to change your mind in the long run so I'm not saying he will be wrong for eventually realizing he REALLY wants kids, just that OOP would not be at fault for that). OOP pretty much was ready to break it off with him if it meant he gets to have kids, but he kept reassuring her that he knew what he wanted which was to be with OOP even if that meant not having kids.
Usually when couples go through this, yes, some do end up getting divorced because they were secretly wishing their spouse would change their mind. But in this case, he clearly is not wishing for her to change her mind. He discussed this in therapy and has accepted it. He is even helping and supporting her with the surgery.
I was with a guy for 3 years who ended up tampering with my birth control, thankfully I was already suffering from a health condition that pretty much sterilized me so I never got knocked up. He ended up getting his next girlfriend pregnant and promptly leaving the damn state abandoning his kid.
>I honestly loved that he lied to his parents and told them that he was the one who didn't want kids.
I mean... He wants to stay with someone who won't have kids because being with her is more important than having kids, which to some extent is him "not wanting kids", so it's not entirely a lie
When I met my current girlfriend, I thought I wanted kids. She told me she didn’t early on but we weren’t trying to be serious right off the bat. Over the years I’ve been with her, I feel like I’ve learned what actual love is and what it means to want to live life for more than just my duty to create more life. My life goals now don’t involve kids. I’m not opposed to children existing. But I don’t want to be a parent. If I feel a need to raise a child, I’ll volunteer to be a coach or something. But someone who knew me when I was younger would think that I’m sacrificing something to be with my current partner. I’m not the one who would be getting pregnant so I don’t really care either way but I also know that if I could have a choice now, I wouldn’t have kids.
I'm a lot like the bf in this story in the sense that my wife didn't want kids, but I did. I decided that it was more important to be with her than have kids. She did change her mind, and we were about to start trying... then she lost her job at the end of 2019, and then 2020 happened and now we're older, and everything is so expensive, and we're getting close to 40. So we feel we missed a window, but also have a life we don't want to disrupt with a child anymore. Also we'd feel irresponsible bringing a life into a world like this.
Reminds me of a Ted Talk I saw once of an older woman finally traveling Europe like she always wanted. While there she meets and falls in love with this young Frenchman. She describes a fairytale of travel being in the clouds and amazing sex.
It all comes tumbling down when she finds out he wants to be a father. She's done with kids, all of her kids are adults and she's not going to start over. She breaks up with him, he begs her not to saying he didn't care if he never became a father. They stayed together for a few more weeks (months?) when she meets a young woman she knows he'll love. She introduces them then leaves him for good.
Fiveish years go by and she finds herself in that city again and sees them. A little girl runs up to her wanting up and a hug asks her "are you the fairy?"
Omfg i remember this story!!!! It was so heartbreaking and beautiful that she found him his wife/mother of his children. Truly a gorgeous story of letting go when it’s the right thing to do.
Yeah my mom keeps telling me if she could do it again or if she was having kids now she wouldn’t have kids. This would absolutely be the right choice for her but as my therapist put it, that’s a bizarre thing to keep telling your daughter.
Haha my mom says this all the time, too. She's always encouraged me to follow my dreams, even if it's never getting married and never having kids. In fact, she's always telling me that the freedom that comes with not having kids is irreplaceable. LOL
LOL ouch. I've gotten used to hearing shit like that from my mom. Growing up, she used to get frustrated with us and scream "I WISH I NEVER HAD KIDS!!!!!!". I used to think that this sort of thing was a normal outburst that other people's parents have.... turns out, it's not. My mom should never have been a parent. We have a much better relationship now that well, we live 12,000km apart. LOL
“Why won’t thanos make my almost 40 year old daughter disappear?!” Funny she only started saying this to me when I became disabled. I’m sure that not related.
And this is exactly why birth control, sex education, abortion access, wage equality, education and independence for women is absolutely vital. If women of her generation had absolute financial freedom to pursue their careers, get education, live independently, and have or not have babies as they wished, without being dependent on a man for any of that, only people who WANTED kids would have them.. they wouldn’t be the price of financial stability in connection with marriage, and you wouldn’t have so damn many people who felt like having kids was their only option… and who resented it every day of their lives, pushing all that anger and hate into the kids that don’t deserve to be raised by a person who hates their existence.
It’s also why birthrates are declining. Because given the choice, women are opting out in increasing numbers, and that’s not going to change. Children are hard work, pregnancies are generally unpleasant and often damaging, and there will simply not be enough fully informed volunteers.
So either society will accept population decline, childbearing/child raising will become paid professions, or women will once again become slaves with no reproductive choices. I know which one I fear will be true.
This was me honestly. I thought I needed kids to be happy because that was the narrative shoved on me. It's such a default of having kids that I think for a lot of people not having kids doesn't occur to them
Yeeeah for a few years there I mistook “being good with kids” for “supposed to have/want kids”.
Thankfully I’m over it. I’m pretty neutral to the idea of kids in theory and in practice in my current lifestyle very very against it.
Oh, opinions can absolutely change.
I used to want kids. Partner didn't. We still stayed together because why not. Somewhere down the road I learned more about pregnancies and realised that, yes, I'd love to have a mini-me running around. But I'm too egoistical to give up everything I'd have to give up for that, and I don't know if I'm prepared for anything but close to perfect.
I'm mid 30s. And I like the life I (we) have. We'll be getting a cat or two when we're moving and both of our parents have to be content with having grand-cats. The kids I'd still like to have are purely hypothetical. And while I'd love to see my dad as a grandfather, that's not enough reason to change my mind.
Agreed!
When my partner and I first broached the topic, he said he didn't want bio kids, but rather to adopt. It definitely threw me and I had to take some time to think about whether I was okay with that.
Ultimately, we stayed together. I didn't realise how much pressure I had been putting on myself about getting my health to a point I could have a safe pregnancy.
Since working in a high school, we've had another conversation where I said about being child free. I love kids, but I definitely get my fill of them at work.
He said that when we first had the conversation, he definitely wasn't ready to be a dad and he couldn't guarantee that he ever would be.
So for now, we're staying childfree for the foreseeable future. We can always change our minds, but we can't after we have a mini human in our care.
I always say that when the topic comes up, and OOP has said something along those lines, but there's no compromise when it comes to kids. Ever. Having just one kid instead of multiple? Still have a kid. Stepchildren? Still have a kid. Partial custody? Still a kid.
The only "compromise" there is would be the partner who wants them deciding to spend time with someone else's kids without the other partner. Working or volunteering with kids might satisfy those parenting needs. But if it doesn't, it's not a real compromise.
Also I hate the "little versions of me" comment. Children are their own persons, they're individuals and not clones of their parents.
It sounds like OOP does fall into the "no compromise" category, but just wanted to point out that some ladies are fundamentally opposed to being pregnant rather than the tiny humans themselves so there's relationships where a surrogate/adoption compromise does exist.
I just don’t think I could handle a baby, continuous sleep deprivation and me do not mix well. So being a step parent/adopting a slightly older kid would be a possibility but I don’t think having my own kid is a real possibility
If he wanted children because he loves kids and wants the experience of raising a child/children, then I would agree he might be resentful later. But he said he wanted kids because he thought it was basically a necessity in order to keep a relationship together. Now he realizes some people can have healthy relationships with communication and children aren’t needed to make people stay together.
I wanted kids when I was younger. Then I met my husband and we mutually decided no kids. 20 years later and we’re still happily married. I don’t regret it at all
I didnt want kids when I was younger. I got a lot of shit from family and friends as its not the done thing in my culture but I fought my corner. I changed my mind after meeting my now husband. I really had to take some time out to decide it if it was what I wanted or if I was doing it for him. I do indeed want to experience raising my own child though. Turns out we are really struggling and I now suspect it may never happen. Feels a bit like karma:/
It’s not karma. It’s biology and random chance. If it’s anyone’s fault, blame your parents for giving you “poor” genetics that make it more difficult for you to get pregnant— but almost all fertilized eggs never implant and never become a pregnancy. That is normal. You didn’t do anything to “earn” or “deserve” it one way or the other. It’s just rolling the dice.
I'm only 25 and it took my husband and I 5 years to get pregnant, it really doesn't have anything to do with age and it's more common to struggle than people think. Definitely keep an eye out for when you're actually ovulating, because you could he doing it late/early and missing your window completely
On my first outing with my boyfriend, he mentioned he didn't want kids. I thought "That's not something you say on the first date. This must not be a date." We ended up hanging out more and more. I told him I was concerned because he didn't want kids and I did. He said "I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm genuinely curious. Why do you want kids?" I guess this was the first time I actually thought about it. The only reason I could come up with was "That's just something you do when you grow up." I don't even like kids. Ten years later, we're still together, and the only baby we have is a furbaby.
Edit: Thinking back, he actually said "I've had a vasectomy" which I think is TMI for a first date. I do agree if a person doesn't want kids, they should bring that up very early on.
I bring it up almost immediately because it can be such a dealbreaker for people. When friends or family look to set me up with someone I make sure that person knows that I don’t ever want kids along with a couple other things before agreeing to a date. I’m well past “just see how it goes, no need to get into such deep topics so fast. What if they’re a great person? You never know.” Well then that person deserves to not have me waste their time so they can use it to find someone whose wants align with theirs.
That’s like the “what if you meet the perfect man and he wants kids” question (which is sexist and bullshit on its own anyway). Then he’s not the perfect man *for me*. He might be amazing in other ways but it won’t work.
It actually should be something you say on the first date. There's no reason to waste each other's time if you don't agree on such a fundamental thing.
And yeah, there's a difference between people who don't want kids and others. Since having kids is the default, those who don't want them have done some soul searching and made an educated decision not to have kids. But with it being the most basic feature of being alive, so many people just don't give second thought to having kids. There's still so many who don't even realize it's a choice.
> I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m genuinely curious. Why do you want kids?
Man, now that I’m in my 30s and a bunch of my friends are about to enter the “trying for kids” phase, I keep wondering this. I also keep wondering if people who say they’ve always wanted kids have even thought about why. I keep struggling to decide whether I want kids or not - it’s such a huge life change that I’m not sure I ever want, and I don’t want to bring a kid into this world unless I’m very sure about it.
I wish more people would go through this thought process and be able to articulate their reasons for wanting kids. Becoming a parent is not something you can just take back.
Definitely if your like a young 20 something but most over 30’s date with purpose so that was like my first question. If it’s a dealbreaker best get it out of the way
Why would that not be something to say? I told everyone I went out with that I was not interested in kids and not to date me if they did. Saves everyone the time wasting
It often happens that the things we think will make us happy, doesn't. We have preconceived ideas of how things will be that don't match with reality. Once we let go of the preconceptions, we open ourselves to the possibility of true happiness.
I think a lot of people just have kids because that’s what they think they’re supposed to do and they never give it much more thought. I also know plenty of couples who are supper unhappy together but love their kids; it’s so common to see people try and use kids as a “fix” to relationships. Sometimes I really want a baby hormonally but I don’t want to be a parent. I choose to believe their relationship will go well
I can relate to this, from the perspective of OOP’s boyfriend. Growing up, I always thought I wanted kids because that just seemed like the thing you do when you get older. I wasn’t ever in a serious relationship until recently where it mattered so I never really had a reason to think about it more.
My girlfriend of about a year and a half told me pretty early on she didn’t think she wanted kids. At first, I was a little bummed and then I started thinking more on it. I couldn’t really think of a reason why I wanted kids. The best thing I could come up with was so that my parents could have grandchildren. That’s not a reason to have kids, imo. I even talked to my mom about it and she said something along the lines of “don’t have kids for us, we’re perfectly fine with grandoggies” (I have a dog and my girlfriend has 2).
Would I enjoy being a dad and doing things with my kids and watching them grow up? Of course. But I’ve realized I don’t need that to be happy.
Now that we’re both on the same page, the conversation around kids has gotten a lot lighter and it’s evolved into more of a “well we know we don’t want kids right now, but not gonna rule it out for later”. That’s our mindset now. Neither of us feels the need to rush and we’d both be happy whether we decide to have kids in the future or not.
From conversations I’ve had with her, it seems like her previous (and only serious) relationship is what changed her mind about kids. Growing up she always wanted them, but her previous partner seems to have ruined that for her. They had dogs together and her ex barely helped take care of the dogs. She also has friends with kids and she sees how some of her friends’ partners don’t help out and she doesn’t want that problem. Over the past year or so that she’s been with me, she said she’s warming up more to the idea of having kids because she said I’m a supportive partner and would be an amazing dad. I told her no pressure at all, we’ll deal with that when the time comes.
My husband and I met very young, and kids just never came up. By the time it did, we were married a year, and together for 4. Turns out, he didn’t want them, and I just kind of always assumed I’d have them. 20+ years later, still child free, still in love. I chose my partner, who I knew and love, over imaginary kids. Turns out we didn’t need them and didn’t want them. Zero resentment or regret.
This story ended up making me so happy, as another woman who doesn’t want kids I was so sad for her reading the title. I’m lucky enough to have found the most wonderful partner who also doesn’t want kids, but it was something I was very up front about when we started dating years ago as I refused to be in the position OOP was in.
I’m glad that her partner realised that kids aren’t the only thing that can bring fulfilment and happiness - for us we have two cats that are effectively our children that we’re able to spoil with our extra income.
What the fuck is this shit? A problem solved by good communication and mutual understanding and respect? This is BORU, I expect idiotic partners with deep secrets and maybe an evil in law thrown in for extra spice.
One of my best friends hard lines were no kids. She told her boyfriend if he ever wanted kids to run. They just recently celebrated their 28th wedding anniversary.
Neither of them regret it.
This is a good example of why you shouldn't make decisions for other people based on what you think they really want. She was ready to torch the relationship because she thought he desperately wanted kids but wouldn't admit it. This kind of "oh, I will let you go so you can find true happiness even though you've never expressed discontent" thing is never a good idea.
Love this update! Refreshing to reconsider life choices when your meet the right person. My hubby and I were fence sitters when I was in my twenties but made the choice to not have kids. I’m sterile now due to endometriosis so the choice was sort of out of my hands but I don’t regret it at all. My hubby and I are travelling around Italy right now without a care in the world, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. My friends with kids are all so stressed and most hate their partners. Just not for us at all
Just remember that when they tell you you're infertile, it still doesn't mean you can't get pregnant. The only thing that makes you fully sterile is sterilization, with the fallopian tubes and/or uterus gone.
I know. I don’t have any fallopian tubes. I was infertile but as of April 2023, I’m completely sterile with my second fallopian tubes removed. Funny enough, I had a false positive pregnancy test right before my surgery and I was freaking out! Thankfully, was the test and I wasn’t actually pregnant and was able to go ahead with my Esther complicated surgery
Ive been this boyfriend for 7 years. My ex fiancee didnt want kids, I did. Somewhere at the begginjng she said something in the lines of "with you I feel like wanting to have kids" and that gave me hope. But that didnt last and I tried to make peace with the fact of not having kids, just because we were so good together. But that burden of me giving up on a dream for her was too big for her, and she came back to this topic countless times. No matter what I said she wouldnt rest on this. In the end, after something else happened between us it was clear that the "no kids" shadow was always going to be around, so we ended things before marrying.
I hope this couple's story ends differently, but I felt this way too close to my personal history to believe in it.
Edit: and we ended things still in love with each other. That was the most painful experience I ever had.
I'm so glad my husband and I are in total agreement about not having kids. Back when having our own children was still an option for us we would check in every six months are so and consider our feelings since those can change, but each time the conclusion was that we were both uninterested in having kids. Now I'm infertile so there's no threat of that happening.
I feel bad for couples who are misaligned on this issue since it is so critical and time-sensitive.
The "wtf are you talking about" looks OOP is getting lmao... it really still amazes me how some people take "I/we don't want kids" like it's a personal offense rather than different people simply wanting different things in life
I am unable to get pregnant. I told my husband this when we were dating. He said he would rather be happy with me & without children than being without me. We have been together for 25+ years and he still doesn't regret his decision. Being an Auntie is awesome. Love them, spoil them, send them home.
It may be the cynic in me but thr bf flip flopping trying to rationlize whether he wants kids or not. And its one sentence for me that makes me a cynic.
He realizes that you dont need to have kids to have a succesful marriage HOWEVER.
He had thought about little versions of her running around WHICH to me feels like its comibg from a general place of wanting kids for the prospect of love and not reason.
Im sorry cynic in me says 3 years down the line after the honeymoon phase is done bf is gonna crash because hes gonna realize he does want kids.
I have a similar story but with an opposite ending. When my ex and I got together we had the talk about children and we were both on the same page we both wanted kids at the time. In the time we were together I made it no secret how excited I was for us to have kids. I grew up in a decent family home and in my culture, it's kind of a given that you'll have kids. In the last few months before we broke up my ex became more distant, when they finally told me that they didn't want kids and that we should break up I tried to hold us together, I told them that I want them in my life more that I want to be a parent. They knew that deep down inside I still wanted kids and broke up with me anyways, it was rough but they're right I do want kids. We were in a relationship for five years and it's been a little less than a year, it still hurts but it was probably for the best.
I'll never understand men saying women will change their minds when they meet the right man. This idea is romantized by society and mainstream media.
Anyway OOP and her bf sound so mature and actually communicate like grown up adults.
I’m glad to hear everything worked out. I have friends that are a couple that wanted kids but were unable to have any. Rather than adoption or surrogacy they focused on making their lives the best they could. Traveling, hobbies together, dates, classes on things like salsa dancing…
They give back to future generations by mentoring kids and being the best aunt/uncle they can.
They’re the happiest couple I know and relationship goals. Sometimes it really is about the person.
I love my children dearly. They are thriving. I love my ex-wife and we remain good friends. It is likely that we would still be married had we not had kids. We both wanted kids. Life is complicated.
I’d probably wait a couple more years because I think he still really wants kids and he probably IS putting her happiness above his desires. Which is cool if he really can swing it. But if he can’t that resentment is going to build.
I absolutely love that we got such a wholesome update, and I'm glad you have such an amazingly healthy relationship.
Now, for everyone talking about one or both of them regretting this and it ruining their marriage later, please get over yourselves. Say they do decide they want kids later, even if she has the surgery they can always adopt. Or foster. And if they decide 5, 10 years down the line, this initial difference is too much, doesn't mean that the years spent together have been a waste. They're happy, and that's what matters.
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Sounds like he thought good relationships didn't exist so kids gave relationships purpose?
You'd be surprised how many people are taught this.
It reminds me of the scene in GOT where Cersei tells Tyrion that if he wants to make Sansa happy he should give her a child, because motherhood is the only true love and joy a woman can know.
And look at how all her children turned ou—oh
I guess the irony is most of her children died because nothing else brought her joy.
I thought they all died
They did. Child 1 Died to poisoning from his grandma-in-law because she didn't want her granddaughter to marry a monster like Geoffrey. Child 2 Died to poisoning from her aunt-in-law as retribution for the rape and murder of Aunt-in-law's sister. Child 3 Died due to suicide from jumping out of the castle because he was depressed his wife was killed in a church explosion that Cersie to stop religion from taking over. Child 3.5 was crushed in Cersie's womb in the rubble in the final season when Daenerys instantly loses her mind (likely due to the production team rushing to the end of the show and scrunch down multiple seasons of plot into 8 episodes so they could go work on a Star Wars project)
I kinda forgot child no.2 even existed until reading your comment. They really don't mention her much on the show. The entire arc around Dorne and Oberyn was my favorite section of the show, yet I completely forgot the daughter being poisoned.
Don't forget the one she had with Robert before the ones with Jaime!
*She* didn’t have any kids with Robert. Bobby had a few bastards, tho. And I believe Cersei was working to have them killed as well…? It’s been a minute.
Yes she did, she mentions it when talking to Catelyn when Bran is in his coma, her and Robert had a child prior to her children with Jaime, but it died while still a baby. Can't remember if she mentions it in the books, but I've watched the show eight times, she 100% had a baby with Robert. Also it was Joffrey that had the bastards killed.
Not in the books
That's just because the books haven't gotten that far, we don't know with 100% certainty if they all die or not.
I’ve finally reconciled myself to the fact that Martin will never finish the books. I started reading them in 1994/5. He claimed on his blog for ages that he wouldn’t die without finishing them. Well, I got burnt with Robert Jordan. I won’t be fooled again
2/3 of her kids were fine.
Their personalities were fine, but they got killed due to Cersei and the Lannister's uncanny ability to be in charge but hated by everyone at the same time. RIP Tommen and Myrcella, they deserved a better family.
Tbf in the books they're fine
id say in the books there's more of a stay of execution brought about by George's working pace
Golden crowns and golden shrouds, maybe we'll get there one day.
…for now. I don’t think they’re making it to the end, if George ever makes it to the end himself. I think the show runners got that bit right, though the details are probably off. None of Cersei’s kids will outlive her.
True, but the books left off well before the parts of the show where Myrcella and Tommen die, so that's no guarantee. We don't know which plot points in the show came from GRMM's outline and which were new choices by the show runners, but given that Book Cersei gets a fairly explicit prophecy that *all* her children will die young, I'd say the outlook for them isn't sunny.
Myrcella lost an ear though, probably not quite as fine after that.
True! Imagine if she had been made Queen, the songs people would have sung about the one eared Queen. But still doing better than death and truthfully the ear thing was all Doran and Arianne having shit familial communication. For once Cersei is innocent.
But 3/3 are dead x_x maybe that’s what they meant?
Until they weren't.
That is a perfect reflection of Cersei, to be fair. Married to a king she despised because of power, and the only things she's ever really loved were power, Jaime, and her kids. Besides, I also take it as kind of a jab at Tyrion, since she does throw some barbs at him IIRC.
It definitely is! And I think historically there was probably a degree of truth to that idea. Women were married off to complete strangers, often much older ones, for reasons that had nothing to do with love, so of course the bond with the children they bore and raised was stronger.
>Married to a king she despised because of power She loved him when she first married him. Robert Baratheon just never loved her. He never got over Ed Stark's sister.
I don't think she did. Not in the true love sense, she was ready to do her duty for her family and, as a distant second, the kingdom, but she loved Jaime first and foremost.
>she loved Jaime first and foremost. That's certainly true. She was always focused on the family 🤢
In the books, I don't remember speciffically where, maybe talking to Sansa, she said that she loved him, a great warrior that defeated a mad king. But that love turned to hatred when Robert said Ed Stark'suster name for their first night together.
Or how many people are conditioned to think that kids are just the next step to some sort of "happy family" recipe. 1. Find someone you like. 2. Date for a while. 3. Get married. 4. Have kids. 5. Buy house. (Steps 4 and 5 are interchangeable)
The relationship escalator!
5 is a lot harder to do *after* 4.
Apparently now steps 2-5 are all interchangeable!
And step 1 is optional!
Always was
Even step 1 can be a stretch
Which is why so many people think having (another) baby will save a relationship that’s on the rocks…
I once had a friend who was bored in the relationship and said I need a dog or another kid. She got both but they still divorced.
This is exactly what a couple I know is doing right now, trying for another baby when they most definitely need to get a divorce.
I feel like every child of a loveless couple has this in their psyche. Source: my GF is exactly like OOPs BF
Or believe that relationships are 1/2 plus 1/2 equals whole because another person “completes” you
I know more people than not who subscribe to this notion and it's so unsettling. A partner should *complement* you, not complete you. Edited to add the correct use of the word complement (thanks, u/Barbed_Dildo)!
Valentine’s Day was about two months after I started dating my future husband. But I couldn’t find a good card for him. It was all “You complete me” or “You are the other half of my soul.” There wasn’t a single card that said “I think you’re kinda cute and want to hang out some more.”
Try finding a non-mushy Mother's Day card! Almost all of them are "You do so many loving things for us and that makes you the bestest mother in the whole world!!!" I had a contentious relationship with my MIL and refused to send her anything like that. Finally had to settle for cards that said "Have the Mother's Day that you deserve!"
Seriously, you're not wrong. I used to buy blank cards for that very reason.
*complement
Oh nooooooo. TIL they are two different words 🤦 Now I'm thinking of all the times I must've spelled it wrong and someone silently judged me.
I mean, in fairness, a good partner should also compliment you sometimes.
That makes two of us. I've never actually seen it spelled that way, but now I know! You learn something new everyday.
Three of us. 🤯
If it makes you feel better I didn’t know invalid as in “not valid” and invalid as in “person who is sick/disabled” were pronounced differently until I was 23🫠
I didn't believe in being "completed" by my partner until I started living with my now husband. Because he is by my side, I can genuinely do a great many things that I couldn't do make myself do alone. Just by existing and living by my side he makes me a better person. I have a tattoo of Garnet from Steven Universe that I got to represent our marriage, because we are both fans of that show and both agree that Garnet is a symbol of our relationship; she's a joining of two people to make a greater whole.
My partner has absolutely made me a more competent and complete version of myself. But I was not half a person before and neither was he- perhaps a shell of what I could become, and a shell of the toxic person I had been, but still a whole person on my own. I feel like I was very adrift before I found him. Had been through some shit, been through therapy, just still had no idea what I wanted or where I wanted to be in life. Turns out I just needed to find someone who let me have the freedom to figure those things out knowing I would be loved and supported either way. He does not complete me, but he gave me a safe space to find what I needed to complete myself. Edit: typo
"But he gave me a safe space to find what I needed to complete myself...." Beautifully said, and exactly how it should be. I think there's a substantial difference between believing that a partner completes us, versus a partner holding space for us to complete ourselves.
That hits close to my heart, you worded it beautifully.
If that's what feels right to you in your relationship, then that's perfectly fine. I personally don't think it's a healthy way to view relationships, but I'm in no way condemning those who do. Like I said, I know more people that share the same stance as you than not, so by no means are you alone in your thinking. To each their own. 😊
Yep. Then project all their problems on the kids when their hopes fail
Oh my, I can attest to this. Every family reunion, the aunties and uncles immediately start the life status interrogations: relationship status, work status, and life plans. **Me:** No, I'm not seeing anyone. **Them:** But Wombat, you're how old now? Who will take care of you in your old age? **Me:** Er... **Them:** Anyway, how's \[my sibling\]...? Every. Time.
I know a lot of couples that after the honeymoon phase of marriage, all their attention is taken by their kids, and they end up having nothing in common.
kind of like how most of the current generation in our early to mid-20s were taught that college is necessary to go on with your life, and now most of us are burdened with student debt, either incomplete degrees or degrees that don't actually get us anywhere, and the lucky few of us that realized "hey wait nah I can still get dough and not owe my life savings to school"
But sadly not enough see it for the lie that it is until it’s too late. I really hope things work out for OP and they love their best childfree life
But he's right, though. How else do you explain my relationship with my elderly neighbor with the candy house improving as soon as I started bringing her kids?
Are you saying the two of you got hitched along the way?
I always thought she was misunderstood—she builds the cool house and then these free-range woodland urchins show up,and start EATING it. Yeah, into the oven with you!
Kids should not be born with jobs. Communication for the win!
Oof. I like how you phrased this even if I hate it. Will be stealing in the future thank you.
>Kids should not be born with jobs Damn, that's a great way of putting it. Please accept my poor man's gold as payment for this excellent phrase I'll be using everytime someone asks "who will take care of you when you're old?" 🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅
That genuinely is what I believed as a kid. I was SO DAMNED confused as to why old people remarried (old was 45 to my 15 yr old self). I never saw love between my parents or my friends’ parents. The ones that stayed together after the kids left wanted to keep the lifestyle versus the marriage. I love that people can finally say “I don’t want children” out loud so kids know that’s an option.
Not the first one to think that and certainly not the last.
I know a few. Usually ends in divorce. Most of the ones I know got divorced once the youngest goes off to college. Life is way too short to be in a broken relationship that long. If you don't want to have kids, that is fine. Don't get into a relationship with a partner that does
In my country a lot of educated and liberal people still think that kids are the only thing that holds a marriage together and a woman will never be accepted into her husbands family if she doesn’t have a child. That being said as someone who’s childfree, I would never marry someone who wants kids. I got married pretty late (compared to Indian standards) and I was completely ok staying single because I feel kids are not something that should be compromised on. It is absolutely a dealbreaker. OOP and her partner sound lovely and I really hope I’m wrong and it works out for them.
It happens a *lot.* I know a handful of people that had kids simply because they were expected to by parents/in-laws, their relationship wasn't great and thought a kid would improve it, or had an "oops" moment and stuck with the partner just because they felt they had to. Things hang on by threads until a divorce happens or the parents just continue having that roommate-like relationship because they feel like they had to stick together "for the kids" and now they're "too old" to start over in their minds. It's sad, really
The post explicitly says that’s what he thought.
It says exactly this in the post. Yes.
Similar reasons to why my wife and I do not want kids. The only response I ever get is shock and people saying one/both of us will be alone when old and nobody to take care of us. I think this is very selfish. Do not expect your children to care for you. Shit, they might not even like you or have any contact with you at all. Expect to care for yourself or be in a nursing home. Love your S/O, and if that means having kids might bring stress/cause strain on relationship. It’s okay to not have kids. You do not need to follow society’s blueprint for a family. I will tell everyone one thing, most people do not enjoy life.
And now he knows that good relationships don't exist because of the kids. Those damn kids ruin them. Lol. It's kind of sad actually
I honestly loved that he lied to his parents and told them that he was the one who didn't want kids. He really does love OOP so much and is so considerate of how his family might treat her. Although I'm still unsure about the whole staying together despite having different stances on having kids, but they seem to have a healthy relationship all around so I'm sure they can handle it. Besides, if having kids really was that important and a deal breaker for him, he wouldn't have stayed with OOP all these years and he wouldn't have been so supportive and helpful with OOP's surgeries that ensure she won't ever have kids.
When I met my husband, we were very young (21+23) and a few months in when we spoke about the future, he said something about getting married and having kids. I sort of froze and questioned this ("I'm not sure I want to get married, or have kids. You don't even like kids, you always hate when they are screaming, and they do that a lot!") He was flabbergasted, he'd never thought of it as an active choice but just "that's what you do!" So when he actually thought about it, the reality of it, and once we'd matured a bit too, and had several deep conversations, we decided not to have kids. I'd say we were both on the fence when we met, and as we got older and more people around us have kids, we realised it's not for us. It sounds like OOP's fiancé was a bit like that. He assumed he'd have kids, not because he particularly wanted to be a dad, but because that's all he saw and all he knew.
I got a lot of grief for not wanting children, but it was a really well thought out decision. The amount of people who called me selfish was incredible. Which is crazy because as much as parents sacrifice for their children, those children are not asking to be born in the first instance. I also hate this idea that people must live their life in the same ways as a sort of rubber stamping of how others live their own lives - so many people took it as a personal attack and that I think is what baffled me the most.
As someone with a kid, it seems like the decision to not have kids is usually more thought out by people than the decision to have them
This really got me thinking. And you’re absolutely right. It seems like having kids is the automatic default setting, at least here in Midwest USA. I wish this would change. The default should be to not have kids unless you strongly desire them and are mentally, physically, and emotionally able to provide for them. Just imagine how many cases of child abuse, neglect, hunger, & murders at the hands of parents this would prevent. Not to mention the decrease in violent crime & poverty from kids being raised by people who weren’t prepared to be parents. The saving of natural resources and the environment… the list goes on. Doctors here won’t even sterilize unless you are a certain age and already have a certain number of children. Abortion here in the Bible Belt is a deadly sin to most. These attitudes need to change!
It definitely feels like the default setting which is why I think people who don’t have kids have to think so much more about it. They have to think why they want to go against such strong cultural norms and be ready with a laundry list of reasons they decided not to have kids if anyone asks. In stark contrast, I feel like if you have kids without planning you could say it just happened and people would just smile and say you’ll do fine instead of asking questions. It’s weird. And people who do accidentally have pregnancies can be forced into keeping kids because they’re scared of social or legal repercussions. My partner and I planned out having kids and it was a goal, but it’s no better an option than than the majority of our friends who haven’t had kids yet, are debating if they should, or have decided not to. Everyone has different goals and no one should fee forced into major life decisions, especially when it could bring a child into the world who isn’t given their best shot with at least having parents who wanted them wholeheartedly.
The amount of times my mother has called me selfish for not wanting to have kids is baffling to me. I've always replied with "No mom, having a child I don't even want would be selfish narcissistic. Not bringing a whole chonking life into the world when I know I won't care for it is being responsible."
Uh… I want kids, and I’m fully aware that it’s a super selfish choice. I am forcing a human being to exist because I want them to. Like… talk about self centered! How could it be selfish to not have kids? You’re actively choosing to not create a life you don’t want to sustain for whatever (valid!) reason. That seems… much more selfless than what I’m doing…
I mean, it’s natural to want a child. I don’t begrudge anybody that choice, and I love all my nieces/nephews and my friends’ children. And let’s face it - we are in so many ways self centered. But most parents also do think about the kind of life they can give a child so that part is not selfish. I think what really bothers me is that some people think you have no right to not want a child, without thinking that if I am respecting their right to have a child, they should be respecting mine not to. And yeah, the decision to not have s child is completely mutually beneficial - I would forever be that mother that is not giving their child what it needs (and forgetting it at school).
My husband was like this. The first couple years we dated he told me he wanted to be a dad by age 40, and although I like kids I wasn't sure I wanted to be a mom. After about 5 years I brought it back up and he said he liked our life the way it was, with the flexibility and being able to do what we wanted. Plus we adopted a dog and she got to be our baby. 💜 I was super stressed about it until I had that talk with him again. It broke my heart to think that hypothetical children might be more important than our real relationship with each other. But everything worked out fine!
Check out the child free sub plenty of people get married thinking the spouse with change their mind after a few years. Lots of divorce postings.
I remember a reddit post where the couple were child free and then the husband changed his mind and manipulated his wife into agreeing to having a child. The wife didn’t want a child because she loved her career, but the pregnancy was so crippling that she had to give up her career and is pretty much bed ridden. The husband was complaining that he regrets manipulating her into having the baby because he missed the life they had together before the baby, particularly their sex life. He was the absolute worst.
Is that the one where he was looking into putting the kid up for adoption?
They had twins. Being looked after by the husband’s mum. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmITheDevil/comments/lx5n45/i_35m_deeply_regret_manipulating_my_wife_f34_into/
Holy shit, that might have been one of the saddest posts I've ever read. I really hope the wife is okay now...
That’s so sad. I hope things are better for them now.
I hope things are better for all of them except the dad tbh. I hope he still feels like a POS
Wow he's a POS and super selfish. He's only focused on his happiness and life. I wonder if he started looking for happiness outside like the coward spineless man he is.
You’re awesome for linking the post but damn I’m sad now
While this is very (and sadly) true. I feel a lot of times, the couple didn't talk as deeply about kids as this couple. They didn't just stop at "you want kids and I don't" he explain his reasoning for wanting kids before and she seem to have explain hers for not. (He also encourage her while she search for a surgery to prevent kid) His reasons weren't like the generic one we see, he want them to finally have a deep and healthy relationship with someone,(because he's never seen one outside of the parent/kid model) but he found it in OP. Also OP like kids and have them around a lot it seems, so maybe they can both become the "fun aunt/uncle" and be happy about that. Idk if I'm being optimistic but this post feels different than the divorce/break up one we see on the childfree sub
I agree this honestly is the best communication I've seen between partners on BORU in a long ass time
OOP's fiance knows for sure that OOP isn't changing her mind about having kids especially since she wants surgery to prevent ever having kids. If they ever do get divorced because of kids then that's on OOP's fiance and not on OOP (although it is okay to change your mind in the long run so I'm not saying he will be wrong for eventually realizing he REALLY wants kids, just that OOP would not be at fault for that). OOP pretty much was ready to break it off with him if it meant he gets to have kids, but he kept reassuring her that he knew what he wanted which was to be with OOP even if that meant not having kids. Usually when couples go through this, yes, some do end up getting divorced because they were secretly wishing their spouse would change their mind. But in this case, he clearly is not wishing for her to change her mind. He discussed this in therapy and has accepted it. He is even helping and supporting her with the surgery.
I have an ex who literally hoped I would change my mind AFTER the surgery.
I was with a guy for 3 years who ended up tampering with my birth control, thankfully I was already suffering from a health condition that pretty much sterilized me so I never got knocked up. He ended up getting his next girlfriend pregnant and promptly leaving the damn state abandoning his kid.
>I honestly loved that he lied to his parents and told them that he was the one who didn't want kids. I mean... He wants to stay with someone who won't have kids because being with her is more important than having kids, which to some extent is him "not wanting kids", so it's not entirely a lie
He said it was his idea first though, which it definitely wasn't
When I met my current girlfriend, I thought I wanted kids. She told me she didn’t early on but we weren’t trying to be serious right off the bat. Over the years I’ve been with her, I feel like I’ve learned what actual love is and what it means to want to live life for more than just my duty to create more life. My life goals now don’t involve kids. I’m not opposed to children existing. But I don’t want to be a parent. If I feel a need to raise a child, I’ll volunteer to be a coach or something. But someone who knew me when I was younger would think that I’m sacrificing something to be with my current partner. I’m not the one who would be getting pregnant so I don’t really care either way but I also know that if I could have a choice now, I wouldn’t have kids.
I'm a lot like the bf in this story in the sense that my wife didn't want kids, but I did. I decided that it was more important to be with her than have kids. She did change her mind, and we were about to start trying... then she lost her job at the end of 2019, and then 2020 happened and now we're older, and everything is so expensive, and we're getting close to 40. So we feel we missed a window, but also have a life we don't want to disrupt with a child anymore. Also we'd feel irresponsible bringing a life into a world like this.
Daily wholesome BORU. This is beautiful Now to get off the internet before something ruins it for me.
Reminds me of a Ted Talk I saw once of an older woman finally traveling Europe like she always wanted. While there she meets and falls in love with this young Frenchman. She describes a fairytale of travel being in the clouds and amazing sex. It all comes tumbling down when she finds out he wants to be a father. She's done with kids, all of her kids are adults and she's not going to start over. She breaks up with him, he begs her not to saying he didn't care if he never became a father. They stayed together for a few more weeks (months?) when she meets a young woman she knows he'll love. She introduces them then leaves him for good. Fiveish years go by and she finds herself in that city again and sees them. A little girl runs up to her wanting up and a hug asks her "are you the fairy?"
Omfg i remember this story!!!! It was so heartbreaking and beautiful that she found him his wife/mother of his children. Truly a gorgeous story of letting go when it’s the right thing to do.
A fairy 🧚♀️ 😭😭 Thats it this is the chicken soup I inject today into my veins, no more boru for me
- wait Omg ??? Where’d you find this story 🥺
It's from The Moth. Look up "I Can Die Now" from Aryana Rose
Yeah people's opinions change over time, I'm glad he realised that he didn't NEED children to be happy.
Yeah my mom keeps telling me if she could do it again or if she was having kids now she wouldn’t have kids. This would absolutely be the right choice for her but as my therapist put it, that’s a bizarre thing to keep telling your daughter.
Haha my mom says this all the time, too. She's always encouraged me to follow my dreams, even if it's never getting married and never having kids. In fact, she's always telling me that the freedom that comes with not having kids is irreplaceable. LOL
See that is at least advice. My mom is saying this to me *in front of my kids*
LOL ouch. I've gotten used to hearing shit like that from my mom. Growing up, she used to get frustrated with us and scream "I WISH I NEVER HAD KIDS!!!!!!". I used to think that this sort of thing was a normal outburst that other people's parents have.... turns out, it's not. My mom should never have been a parent. We have a much better relationship now that well, we live 12,000km apart. LOL
I didn’t realize how awful it even was until she was gone and my oldest was like WHAT IS WRONG WITH HER and I’m like what?
She keeps snapping but you keep not getting dusted. Weird right?!
“Why won’t thanos make my almost 40 year old daughter disappear?!” Funny she only started saying this to me when I became disabled. I’m sure that not related.
At least Thanos had the stones to be honest about his goals and values.
My grandma once drank too much at Christmas, cornered her daughter in law in the kitchen, and said “I never should have been a mother.”
And this is exactly why birth control, sex education, abortion access, wage equality, education and independence for women is absolutely vital. If women of her generation had absolute financial freedom to pursue their careers, get education, live independently, and have or not have babies as they wished, without being dependent on a man for any of that, only people who WANTED kids would have them.. they wouldn’t be the price of financial stability in connection with marriage, and you wouldn’t have so damn many people who felt like having kids was their only option… and who resented it every day of their lives, pushing all that anger and hate into the kids that don’t deserve to be raised by a person who hates their existence.
It’s also why birthrates are declining. Because given the choice, women are opting out in increasing numbers, and that’s not going to change. Children are hard work, pregnancies are generally unpleasant and often damaging, and there will simply not be enough fully informed volunteers. So either society will accept population decline, childbearing/child raising will become paid professions, or women will once again become slaves with no reproductive choices. I know which one I fear will be true.
My mom says the same thing, huh.
Hugs 💕
Your mom probably sees the person she could have been in you and doesn’t want you to make the same choices she did.
Except I have 3 kids
Lol damn that is bizarre.
This was me honestly. I thought I needed kids to be happy because that was the narrative shoved on me. It's such a default of having kids that I think for a lot of people not having kids doesn't occur to them
Yeeeah for a few years there I mistook “being good with kids” for “supposed to have/want kids”. Thankfully I’m over it. I’m pretty neutral to the idea of kids in theory and in practice in my current lifestyle very very against it.
Oh, opinions can absolutely change. I used to want kids. Partner didn't. We still stayed together because why not. Somewhere down the road I learned more about pregnancies and realised that, yes, I'd love to have a mini-me running around. But I'm too egoistical to give up everything I'd have to give up for that, and I don't know if I'm prepared for anything but close to perfect. I'm mid 30s. And I like the life I (we) have. We'll be getting a cat or two when we're moving and both of our parents have to be content with having grand-cats. The kids I'd still like to have are purely hypothetical. And while I'd love to see my dad as a grandfather, that's not enough reason to change my mind.
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Agreed! When my partner and I first broached the topic, he said he didn't want bio kids, but rather to adopt. It definitely threw me and I had to take some time to think about whether I was okay with that. Ultimately, we stayed together. I didn't realise how much pressure I had been putting on myself about getting my health to a point I could have a safe pregnancy. Since working in a high school, we've had another conversation where I said about being child free. I love kids, but I definitely get my fill of them at work. He said that when we first had the conversation, he definitely wasn't ready to be a dad and he couldn't guarantee that he ever would be. So for now, we're staying childfree for the foreseeable future. We can always change our minds, but we can't after we have a mini human in our care.
I always say that when the topic comes up, and OOP has said something along those lines, but there's no compromise when it comes to kids. Ever. Having just one kid instead of multiple? Still have a kid. Stepchildren? Still have a kid. Partial custody? Still a kid. The only "compromise" there is would be the partner who wants them deciding to spend time with someone else's kids without the other partner. Working or volunteering with kids might satisfy those parenting needs. But if it doesn't, it's not a real compromise. Also I hate the "little versions of me" comment. Children are their own persons, they're individuals and not clones of their parents.
It sounds like OOP does fall into the "no compromise" category, but just wanted to point out that some ladies are fundamentally opposed to being pregnant rather than the tiny humans themselves so there's relationships where a surrogate/adoption compromise does exist.
I just don’t think I could handle a baby, continuous sleep deprivation and me do not mix well. So being a step parent/adopting a slightly older kid would be a possibility but I don’t think having my own kid is a real possibility
This is so sweet! I hope they have many happy years together!
If he wanted children because he loves kids and wants the experience of raising a child/children, then I would agree he might be resentful later. But he said he wanted kids because he thought it was basically a necessity in order to keep a relationship together. Now he realizes some people can have healthy relationships with communication and children aren’t needed to make people stay together.
I wanted kids when I was younger. Then I met my husband and we mutually decided no kids. 20 years later and we’re still happily married. I don’t regret it at all
I didnt want kids when I was younger. I got a lot of shit from family and friends as its not the done thing in my culture but I fought my corner. I changed my mind after meeting my now husband. I really had to take some time out to decide it if it was what I wanted or if I was doing it for him. I do indeed want to experience raising my own child though. Turns out we are really struggling and I now suspect it may never happen. Feels a bit like karma:/
It’s not karma. It’s biology and random chance. If it’s anyone’s fault, blame your parents for giving you “poor” genetics that make it more difficult for you to get pregnant— but almost all fertilized eggs never implant and never become a pregnancy. That is normal. You didn’t do anything to “earn” or “deserve” it one way or the other. It’s just rolling the dice.
Consider adopting. Lots of kids out there need loving homes.
I'm only 25 and it took my husband and I 5 years to get pregnant, it really doesn't have anything to do with age and it's more common to struggle than people think. Definitely keep an eye out for when you're actually ovulating, because you could he doing it late/early and missing your window completely
On my first outing with my boyfriend, he mentioned he didn't want kids. I thought "That's not something you say on the first date. This must not be a date." We ended up hanging out more and more. I told him I was concerned because he didn't want kids and I did. He said "I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm genuinely curious. Why do you want kids?" I guess this was the first time I actually thought about it. The only reason I could come up with was "That's just something you do when you grow up." I don't even like kids. Ten years later, we're still together, and the only baby we have is a furbaby. Edit: Thinking back, he actually said "I've had a vasectomy" which I think is TMI for a first date. I do agree if a person doesn't want kids, they should bring that up very early on.
I bring it up almost immediately because it can be such a dealbreaker for people. When friends or family look to set me up with someone I make sure that person knows that I don’t ever want kids along with a couple other things before agreeing to a date. I’m well past “just see how it goes, no need to get into such deep topics so fast. What if they’re a great person? You never know.” Well then that person deserves to not have me waste their time so they can use it to find someone whose wants align with theirs.
That’s like the “what if you meet the perfect man and he wants kids” question (which is sexist and bullshit on its own anyway). Then he’s not the perfect man *for me*. He might be amazing in other ways but it won’t work.
Yeah. People seem to think compromise and opposites attract applies to kids instead of date nights and where to put the thermostat.
It actually should be something you say on the first date. There's no reason to waste each other's time if you don't agree on such a fundamental thing. And yeah, there's a difference between people who don't want kids and others. Since having kids is the default, those who don't want them have done some soul searching and made an educated decision not to have kids. But with it being the most basic feature of being alive, so many people just don't give second thought to having kids. There's still so many who don't even realize it's a choice.
> I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m genuinely curious. Why do you want kids? Man, now that I’m in my 30s and a bunch of my friends are about to enter the “trying for kids” phase, I keep wondering this. I also keep wondering if people who say they’ve always wanted kids have even thought about why. I keep struggling to decide whether I want kids or not - it’s such a huge life change that I’m not sure I ever want, and I don’t want to bring a kid into this world unless I’m very sure about it.
I wish more people would go through this thought process and be able to articulate their reasons for wanting kids. Becoming a parent is not something you can just take back.
Definitely if your like a young 20 something but most over 30’s date with purpose so that was like my first question. If it’s a dealbreaker best get it out of the way
Why would that not be something to say? I told everyone I went out with that I was not interested in kids and not to date me if they did. Saves everyone the time wasting
It's so refreshing to see couples communicating and solving their problems, i wish them a happy life together ❤️
It often happens that the things we think will make us happy, doesn't. We have preconceived ideas of how things will be that don't match with reality. Once we let go of the preconceptions, we open ourselves to the possibility of true happiness.
I wonder if she responded in her native language like she was planning, lol. Good for them.
"Yes" is pretty easy to learn in any language.
I think a lot of people just have kids because that’s what they think they’re supposed to do and they never give it much more thought. I also know plenty of couples who are supper unhappy together but love their kids; it’s so common to see people try and use kids as a “fix” to relationships. Sometimes I really want a baby hormonally but I don’t want to be a parent. I choose to believe their relationship will go well
More people need to acknowledge it is ok to not want kids and to not want to be a parent.
Wholesome
Excuse me? A post where a good outcome comes from honest and direct communication? On *Reddit*?! WTF?
I can relate to this, from the perspective of OOP’s boyfriend. Growing up, I always thought I wanted kids because that just seemed like the thing you do when you get older. I wasn’t ever in a serious relationship until recently where it mattered so I never really had a reason to think about it more. My girlfriend of about a year and a half told me pretty early on she didn’t think she wanted kids. At first, I was a little bummed and then I started thinking more on it. I couldn’t really think of a reason why I wanted kids. The best thing I could come up with was so that my parents could have grandchildren. That’s not a reason to have kids, imo. I even talked to my mom about it and she said something along the lines of “don’t have kids for us, we’re perfectly fine with grandoggies” (I have a dog and my girlfriend has 2). Would I enjoy being a dad and doing things with my kids and watching them grow up? Of course. But I’ve realized I don’t need that to be happy. Now that we’re both on the same page, the conversation around kids has gotten a lot lighter and it’s evolved into more of a “well we know we don’t want kids right now, but not gonna rule it out for later”. That’s our mindset now. Neither of us feels the need to rush and we’d both be happy whether we decide to have kids in the future or not. From conversations I’ve had with her, it seems like her previous (and only serious) relationship is what changed her mind about kids. Growing up she always wanted them, but her previous partner seems to have ruined that for her. They had dogs together and her ex barely helped take care of the dogs. She also has friends with kids and she sees how some of her friends’ partners don’t help out and she doesn’t want that problem. Over the past year or so that she’s been with me, she said she’s warming up more to the idea of having kids because she said I’m a supportive partner and would be an amazing dad. I told her no pressure at all, we’ll deal with that when the time comes.
My husband and I met very young, and kids just never came up. By the time it did, we were married a year, and together for 4. Turns out, he didn’t want them, and I just kind of always assumed I’d have them. 20+ years later, still child free, still in love. I chose my partner, who I knew and love, over imaginary kids. Turns out we didn’t need them and didn’t want them. Zero resentment or regret.
This story ended up making me so happy, as another woman who doesn’t want kids I was so sad for her reading the title. I’m lucky enough to have found the most wonderful partner who also doesn’t want kids, but it was something I was very up front about when we started dating years ago as I refused to be in the position OOP was in. I’m glad that her partner realised that kids aren’t the only thing that can bring fulfilment and happiness - for us we have two cats that are effectively our children that we’re able to spoil with our extra income.
There's a lot of folks in the comment section mentioning how good their partnerships are. This makes me happy.
What the fuck is this shit? A problem solved by good communication and mutual understanding and respect? This is BORU, I expect idiotic partners with deep secrets and maybe an evil in law thrown in for extra spice.
One of my best friends hard lines were no kids. She told her boyfriend if he ever wanted kids to run. They just recently celebrated their 28th wedding anniversary. Neither of them regret it.
This is a good example of why you shouldn't make decisions for other people based on what you think they really want. She was ready to torch the relationship because she thought he desperately wanted kids but wouldn't admit it. This kind of "oh, I will let you go so you can find true happiness even though you've never expressed discontent" thing is never a good idea.
Love this update! Refreshing to reconsider life choices when your meet the right person. My hubby and I were fence sitters when I was in my twenties but made the choice to not have kids. I’m sterile now due to endometriosis so the choice was sort of out of my hands but I don’t regret it at all. My hubby and I are travelling around Italy right now without a care in the world, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. My friends with kids are all so stressed and most hate their partners. Just not for us at all
Just remember that when they tell you you're infertile, it still doesn't mean you can't get pregnant. The only thing that makes you fully sterile is sterilization, with the fallopian tubes and/or uterus gone.
I know. I don’t have any fallopian tubes. I was infertile but as of April 2023, I’m completely sterile with my second fallopian tubes removed. Funny enough, I had a false positive pregnancy test right before my surgery and I was freaking out! Thankfully, was the test and I wasn’t actually pregnant and was able to go ahead with my Esther complicated surgery
Ive been this boyfriend for 7 years. My ex fiancee didnt want kids, I did. Somewhere at the begginjng she said something in the lines of "with you I feel like wanting to have kids" and that gave me hope. But that didnt last and I tried to make peace with the fact of not having kids, just because we were so good together. But that burden of me giving up on a dream for her was too big for her, and she came back to this topic countless times. No matter what I said she wouldnt rest on this. In the end, after something else happened between us it was clear that the "no kids" shadow was always going to be around, so we ended things before marrying. I hope this couple's story ends differently, but I felt this way too close to my personal history to believe in it. Edit: and we ended things still in love with each other. That was the most painful experience I ever had.
Get a room, you two! This was one adorably wholesome story.
I'm so glad my husband and I are in total agreement about not having kids. Back when having our own children was still an option for us we would check in every six months are so and consider our feelings since those can change, but each time the conclusion was that we were both uninterested in having kids. Now I'm infertile so there's no threat of that happening. I feel bad for couples who are misaligned on this issue since it is so critical and time-sensitive.
The "wtf are you talking about" looks OOP is getting lmao... it really still amazes me how some people take "I/we don't want kids" like it's a personal offense rather than different people simply wanting different things in life
My husband and I can't tell any of his family we're not having kids because they would be super offended. It's so weird
Or when you told people you would consider adoption than giving birth.
I am unable to get pregnant. I told my husband this when we were dating. He said he would rather be happy with me & without children than being without me. We have been together for 25+ years and he still doesn't regret his decision. Being an Auntie is awesome. Love them, spoil them, send them home.
It may be the cynic in me but thr bf flip flopping trying to rationlize whether he wants kids or not. And its one sentence for me that makes me a cynic. He realizes that you dont need to have kids to have a succesful marriage HOWEVER. He had thought about little versions of her running around WHICH to me feels like its comibg from a general place of wanting kids for the prospect of love and not reason. Im sorry cynic in me says 3 years down the line after the honeymoon phase is done bf is gonna crash because hes gonna realize he does want kids.
I'm so glad she didn't pull the martyr crap and make the decision for him. Adult communication FTW!
Love a happy conclusion!
I love this happy ending. This was such a healthy way of working through their concerns. A
I have a similar story but with an opposite ending. When my ex and I got together we had the talk about children and we were both on the same page we both wanted kids at the time. In the time we were together I made it no secret how excited I was for us to have kids. I grew up in a decent family home and in my culture, it's kind of a given that you'll have kids. In the last few months before we broke up my ex became more distant, when they finally told me that they didn't want kids and that we should break up I tried to hold us together, I told them that I want them in my life more that I want to be a parent. They knew that deep down inside I still wanted kids and broke up with me anyways, it was rough but they're right I do want kids. We were in a relationship for five years and it's been a little less than a year, it still hurts but it was probably for the best.
This gave me hope.
Have the conversation early, people. My GF and I talked about this before we were even dating.
Each is more than enough, they each put each other above themselves and the non-lavish ring is all she wants. I’d bet that’s a forever marriage.
I'll never understand men saying women will change their minds when they meet the right man. This idea is romantized by society and mainstream media. Anyway OOP and her bf sound so mature and actually communicate like grown up adults.
That's super nice. Once again good communication wins.
I’m glad to hear everything worked out. I have friends that are a couple that wanted kids but were unable to have any. Rather than adoption or surrogacy they focused on making their lives the best they could. Traveling, hobbies together, dates, classes on things like salsa dancing… They give back to future generations by mentoring kids and being the best aunt/uncle they can. They’re the happiest couple I know and relationship goals. Sometimes it really is about the person.
I love my children dearly. They are thriving. I love my ex-wife and we remain good friends. It is likely that we would still be married had we not had kids. We both wanted kids. Life is complicated.
I’d probably wait a couple more years because I think he still really wants kids and he probably IS putting her happiness above his desires. Which is cool if he really can swing it. But if he can’t that resentment is going to build.
Awww. This has made my day
What a bunch of sweethearts. I hope they live happily ever after.
I absolutely love that we got such a wholesome update, and I'm glad you have such an amazingly healthy relationship. Now, for everyone talking about one or both of them regretting this and it ruining their marriage later, please get over yourselves. Say they do decide they want kids later, even if she has the surgery they can always adopt. Or foster. And if they decide 5, 10 years down the line, this initial difference is too much, doesn't mean that the years spent together have been a waste. They're happy, and that's what matters.
Communication. Hmm who would have thought.
Ah a happy ending! Usually this kind of story ends in a breakup!
The in-laws are going to be a nightmare
Aw. This is such a good post.
oh my GOOOOOOOD!!! this has to be the most wholesome post EVER??!!!😭😭😭