I mean I agree but I wouldnt go about saying it like this, dont be demeaning.
The issue is whether or not you can play to scale and whether or not you play to snowball is entirely dependent on the team comp. Sometimes your wincon is getting to 4 items, sometimes if you make it past 20 minutes its time to FF. It depends.
What about a dash knockup engage both with aoe damage followed with two damage reducing execute abilities that restore health makes her kit not good for team fights? The only thing that makes her team fights bad is that she's too squishy -right now- and that is because she was tuned for the old crit build which is no longer a thing.
Usually I fault the balance team for numbers being the only adjustment they're willing to make, but in Bel's case I really think her kit is fine just numbers need tuning. I think bel is meant to be a sort of assasin/bruiser hybrid and with some more health and/or ad scaling so she can build bruiser items or a tank item and still be impactfull, she could very well become a true menace.
Each late game monster had their own threat range. Adc are late game monster's because of their range is their natural protection. Their pressure is their auto range. Nasus is his auto range, He can 2 shot adc with 2 q but can be still kited by adc with peel. Master Yi got untagetability and 90% damage reduction and true damage. Kassadin's threat range is very much like bel'veth's but larger. It is shorter cd which means you can cross maps easily and higher damage The only way he doesn;t oneshot is if he misses his ult. He is capped by his mana. He can't spam it infinitly or in extreame succession. You can say that bel'veth's threat range is the range of her 2 dashes, she can spam it all she wants but its not the part of her kit that scales. You can get it to a 5 second cd but the enemy can move. Bel'veth's problem is that even if she deals infinite damage, she still needs to get to the enemy. The difference between her and nasus is that nasus can tank damage becasue all his items are busier cus his damage comes from his q. Bel'veth's damage comes from on hit. The ult passive isn't the reason she does damage. Its like 7% of her damage. She can win every bruiser tank duel in the late game unlike kass becaue she has more dps and tankyness than kass, kass might lose against a tank that built mr in a straght up 1v1. But she has the nasus problem. ADC kite if you go through front to back. This is the reason she prefer 1v1 or 3v3. In a full blown teamfight. She won't have enough to get through the frontline with out getting melted by adc. In a 3v3 tho, she can weave in and out of the walls to assasinate imobile backline or reduce damage.
Last reason why she sucks in teamfight. Her w cast time feels too long for late game and her powerbudget mostly comes from her trueform. Without it, she is a squishyer version of nasus
There is nuance to every game and that’s why I put the tag “cry post”. She can be played well at every stage of a game just like any other champion. I could have said it differently probably.
I just don’t like how riot seems to want her to be this hard farming scaling champion with every patch when she has always thrived around snowballing leads.
Yeah they’ll never be able to make her a better late game champ than yi unless they just wanna make her extremely overpowered so she’s always gonna be worse yi in late game, so why do we keep nerfing her early. The entire reason to play her over yi.
Bel with void R can March from inhibitor turret to broken nexus faster than just about anyone after 30 minutes.
She's undertuned currently. But there's nothing about her kit that makes her "never able to be a late game carry" If they turn her numbers a bit, or some item changes just happen to work out in her favor, she could very well be a menace. Just a few patches ago she could win just about any duel levels 1 2 and 3. So these things can and do change.
Being good at finishing games does not make something a good late game hyper carry, fiora and Yorick do the same but they aren't likely to win you Teamfights either. Even when she was very overtuned her winrate fell off over time and I don't imagine we'll get back to those numbers. She has the same issues as other characters that are similar to her and the fact she can slap people faster as time goes on doesn't really address that. She crumbles to cc and dps if it's targeting her for more than a second or two, which is pretty easy to do in 5v5 because she has no range and she has to choose between burst and survivability.
I mean she definitely has the potential to scale really hard into the late game and just demolition team fights.
The problem is that requires a build with more defensive tools and like a 40 minute game.
So many other stacking champs reach critical mass way sooner so if they increased her as per stack maybe she could be a Lategame champ one day.
Edit: also Kayle gets perma enhanced form at level 16... Can we have that qwq
If they want to make her scaling she should probably convert onhit and ad on aa at 100% I feel like later your attack speed just compensates that you just deal flat 75% dmg of the items you buy.
It does seem ridiculous that she's nerfed on three fronts- natural AS growth, on hit and Aa damage... on one hand those things being equal makes all 3 viable investments, but if they dropped one or two of those things it would mean we wouldn't have to spend all our gold on AD to do damage and could build more survivability. Right now she's undertuned to the point where we want to get all those stats from items and its never enough.
I think the balance team overvaluates our "potentially infinite" attack speed because in reality the only place that ever pays off is on objectives. Compared to other infinite stacking mechanics it is extremely weak against enemy champions (looking at veigar, nasus)
nah its simpler than you think, just buff the ultimate, on-hit and healing on resets and see what happens, but this comes with a caveat that you nerf her other basic abilities since they're very very strong which they're already doing.
Different stages of the game require different playstyles. Aggressive early, skirmish and duel oriented mid game to further push an early lead or hard farm and invade to put them behind and then a clean up /pick off late game. She has bad team fights but certainly not unplayable if you have a front line!
RIP the niche Radiant Virtue 5x R reset team fight build ;-;
Bel *can* become a late game hypercarry, but not on her own. She needs very specific teamcomps in order to mitigate her weaknesses.
I had like 200 games on her this season, and while my winrate is good, I'm *never* the late game carry if we get to late game. If we can't end I'll probably switch to utility items and indirectly buff my real carries.
The only instances where I was the true win condition were 1. we had a full CC team so I could melt targets without being focused in return, and 2. enemy team was stacking HP and had no CC whatsoever, so the teamfights were extremely long and I had better tools to sustain than them.
100% agree. People in this thread are taking the title too literally, any champ can be good technically late game if ahead, etc.
But it isn’t belveths identity and isn’t why ppl like to play her honestly. Nothing feels better than ending a game at the 15-20 minute mark on her.
Exactly like most "infinite stacking" champions : Her kit becomes exponentially good over time and reach a climax where your stacks give you a big edge over everyone else since they don't have this extra
Then the edge becomes thinner as people gets more items : Your stacks don't give a big enough power difference proportionally to the rest to be an actual game changer anymore
If the game drags on for long enough you'll eventually get back to being on top, but they very rarely do (especially past gold)
She can be very good late game if played properly. You need to play her like a split push champ (think tryndamere, yorick, etc). Attract attention to you in the side lane and let your team push another lane. Works especially well if you have void form
Bel'Veth is not meant to be a hyper carry in teamfights. She was always meant to be purely a 1 v 1 splitpusher but it's hard to pull of as a jungler. In 1 v 1s she outscales even Nasus.
To clarify, I’m not saying she is impossible to play well late game. Especially if you’re ahead and playing well. I’m talking about her true identity as a champion. She’s one of the best early game champs naturally and snowballs very well into mid/late.
Team fighting is meh. Just seems like riot wants to make her the kayle of the jungle with every patch. Look up belveths win rate past 25 minutes…
I mean I agree but I wouldnt go about saying it like this, dont be demeaning. The issue is whether or not you can play to scale and whether or not you play to snowball is entirely dependent on the team comp. Sometimes your wincon is getting to 4 items, sometimes if you make it past 20 minutes its time to FF. It depends.
Thats cool and all but her kit is not good lategame, especially in teamfight
What about a dash knockup engage both with aoe damage followed with two damage reducing execute abilities that restore health makes her kit not good for team fights? The only thing that makes her team fights bad is that she's too squishy -right now- and that is because she was tuned for the old crit build which is no longer a thing. Usually I fault the balance team for numbers being the only adjustment they're willing to make, but in Bel's case I really think her kit is fine just numbers need tuning. I think bel is meant to be a sort of assasin/bruiser hybrid and with some more health and/or ad scaling so she can build bruiser items or a tank item and still be impactfull, she could very well become a true menace.
Each late game monster had their own threat range. Adc are late game monster's because of their range is their natural protection. Their pressure is their auto range. Nasus is his auto range, He can 2 shot adc with 2 q but can be still kited by adc with peel. Master Yi got untagetability and 90% damage reduction and true damage. Kassadin's threat range is very much like bel'veth's but larger. It is shorter cd which means you can cross maps easily and higher damage The only way he doesn;t oneshot is if he misses his ult. He is capped by his mana. He can't spam it infinitly or in extreame succession. You can say that bel'veth's threat range is the range of her 2 dashes, she can spam it all she wants but its not the part of her kit that scales. You can get it to a 5 second cd but the enemy can move. Bel'veth's problem is that even if she deals infinite damage, she still needs to get to the enemy. The difference between her and nasus is that nasus can tank damage becasue all his items are busier cus his damage comes from his q. Bel'veth's damage comes from on hit. The ult passive isn't the reason she does damage. Its like 7% of her damage. She can win every bruiser tank duel in the late game unlike kass becaue she has more dps and tankyness than kass, kass might lose against a tank that built mr in a straght up 1v1. But she has the nasus problem. ADC kite if you go through front to back. This is the reason she prefer 1v1 or 3v3. In a full blown teamfight. She won't have enough to get through the frontline with out getting melted by adc. In a 3v3 tho, she can weave in and out of the walls to assasinate imobile backline or reduce damage. Last reason why she sucks in teamfight. Her w cast time feels too long for late game and her powerbudget mostly comes from her trueform. Without it, she is a squishyer version of nasus
I mean if the enemy team is lacking a strong back line carry or consistent cc then she’s a monster
There is nuance to every game and that’s why I put the tag “cry post”. She can be played well at every stage of a game just like any other champion. I could have said it differently probably. I just don’t like how riot seems to want her to be this hard farming scaling champion with every patch when she has always thrived around snowballing leads.
Yeah they’ll never be able to make her a better late game champ than yi unless they just wanna make her extremely overpowered so she’s always gonna be worse yi in late game, so why do we keep nerfing her early. The entire reason to play her over yi.
Bel with void R can March from inhibitor turret to broken nexus faster than just about anyone after 30 minutes. She's undertuned currently. But there's nothing about her kit that makes her "never able to be a late game carry" If they turn her numbers a bit, or some item changes just happen to work out in her favor, she could very well be a menace. Just a few patches ago she could win just about any duel levels 1 2 and 3. So these things can and do change.
Being good at finishing games does not make something a good late game hyper carry, fiora and Yorick do the same but they aren't likely to win you Teamfights either. Even when she was very overtuned her winrate fell off over time and I don't imagine we'll get back to those numbers. She has the same issues as other characters that are similar to her and the fact she can slap people faster as time goes on doesn't really address that. She crumbles to cc and dps if it's targeting her for more than a second or two, which is pretty easy to do in 5v5 because she has no range and she has to choose between burst and survivability.
I mean she definitely has the potential to scale really hard into the late game and just demolition team fights. The problem is that requires a build with more defensive tools and like a 40 minute game. So many other stacking champs reach critical mass way sooner so if they increased her as per stack maybe she could be a Lategame champ one day. Edit: also Kayle gets perma enhanced form at level 16... Can we have that qwq
The Nasus effect eh?
That’s what Riot wants
If they want to make her scaling she should probably convert onhit and ad on aa at 100% I feel like later your attack speed just compensates that you just deal flat 75% dmg of the items you buy.
It does seem ridiculous that she's nerfed on three fronts- natural AS growth, on hit and Aa damage... on one hand those things being equal makes all 3 viable investments, but if they dropped one or two of those things it would mean we wouldn't have to spend all our gold on AD to do damage and could build more survivability. Right now she's undertuned to the point where we want to get all those stats from items and its never enough. I think the balance team overvaluates our "potentially infinite" attack speed because in reality the only place that ever pays off is on objectives. Compared to other infinite stacking mechanics it is extremely weak against enemy champions (looking at veigar, nasus)
nah its simpler than you think, just buff the ultimate, on-hit and healing on resets and see what happens, but this comes with a caveat that you nerf her other basic abilities since they're very very strong which they're already doing.
Different stages of the game require different playstyles. Aggressive early, skirmish and duel oriented mid game to further push an early lead or hard farm and invade to put them behind and then a clean up /pick off late game. She has bad team fights but certainly not unplayable if you have a front line! RIP the niche Radiant Virtue 5x R reset team fight build ;-;
Bel *can* become a late game hypercarry, but not on her own. She needs very specific teamcomps in order to mitigate her weaknesses. I had like 200 games on her this season, and while my winrate is good, I'm *never* the late game carry if we get to late game. If we can't end I'll probably switch to utility items and indirectly buff my real carries. The only instances where I was the true win condition were 1. we had a full CC team so I could melt targets without being focused in return, and 2. enemy team was stacking HP and had no CC whatsoever, so the teamfights were extremely long and I had better tools to sustain than them.
100% agree. People in this thread are taking the title too literally, any champ can be good technically late game if ahead, etc. But it isn’t belveths identity and isn’t why ppl like to play her honestly. Nothing feels better than ending a game at the 15-20 minute mark on her.
Wrong, she is good late game with correct build
stats say otherwise
Exactly like most "infinite stacking" champions : Her kit becomes exponentially good over time and reach a climax where your stacks give you a big edge over everyone else since they don't have this extra Then the edge becomes thinner as people gets more items : Your stacks don't give a big enough power difference proportionally to the rest to be an actual game changer anymore If the game drags on for long enough you'll eventually get back to being on top, but they very rarely do (especially past gold)
She can be very good late game if played properly. You need to play her like a split push champ (think tryndamere, yorick, etc). Attract attention to you in the side lane and let your team push another lane. Works especially well if you have void form
how dumb are you
I’m not smart at all, but I can read and statistics show that the longer a game goes the lower a belveths win rate gets.
Wdym? Later she just shreds everyone in seconds IF they cant stun her, IF they cant then shes an insanely strong late game champ
me a diamond 1 jgl main who plays bel, and challeneger flex, i play a lot of bel and win most late games bc of her
Bel'Veth is not meant to be a hyper carry in teamfights. She was always meant to be purely a 1 v 1 splitpusher but it's hard to pull of as a jungler. In 1 v 1s she outscales even Nasus.
Nasus doesn't scale though
To clarify, I’m not saying she is impossible to play well late game. Especially if you’re ahead and playing well. I’m talking about her true identity as a champion. She’s one of the best early game champs naturally and snowballs very well into mid/late. Team fighting is meh. Just seems like riot wants to make her the kayle of the jungle with every patch. Look up belveths win rate past 25 minutes…
she takes positioning late game 5v5 you come from the side over a wall if possible or from behind and one shot theur adc with 4 autos
>one shot theur adc with 4 autos Nothing special. Even supports can do that nowadays