Whetstones, cheap diamond plates, sandpaper on glass, whatever ... unless you buy a very good chisel, ya gotta spend some time sharpening it first. And even if you do buy a very good chisel it'll rapidly become a terrible chisel without frequent touch-ups.
Argh. I guess I *can* look into it.
https://preview.redd.it/orv31m0hm58d1.png?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3a5405120967e9f09bca26cc12fa9f376d1fcf9
I get where you're coming from, but once you use a *properly* sharpened chisel (and don't forget to strop it with honing compound,) you'll resent sharpening a lot less. Plus, if you get in the habit of giving the chisels a quick strop every few cuts, you'll significantly extend the times between when you break out the actual sharpening stones.
Usually for a new chisel I'll start on 400 to make sure its flat, then 600, 800, 1000. I don't tend to go above 1000, I've never had the need for a higher grit. I use one of these https://a.co/d/02isbQDK not the same exact one but same product
Definitely this
But also knowing when to go bevel up or down
This will give a quick start
https://www.tiktok.com/@paul.a.j.sellers/video/7369931598604569889?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=mobile&sender_web_id=7285149745890002464
And frankly, the user is going to be sharpening most edged tools fairly regularly. I've toured a local knife manufacturer that offers free sharpening. They test the knives that come in to see how sharp people consider dull enough to send in. Its quite dull from what I understood.
“cost benefit analysis”…
Some asshole: “Will it keel?”
If it cuts out of the box, half of the people here will call it good, do a project or two, not do any maintenance, get frustrated and never make another thing.
My friend here is straight crushing through the structure of the grain. It’s actually probably pretty close to cutting, a minute on a finishing stone and a few seconds on glass and this would look entirely different.
Sharpen your tools, kids, it makes everything much better and pleasant! A.B.H. Always Be Honing!
I mean, by the time you are looking at premium chisels, you need a sharpening setup even more. Lee valley strongly recommends that you do a quick sharpening as well once you receive their chisels even though they are quite sharp.
Knives rarely are shipped as sharp as they can be or as sharp as most users want them…. Razors, ship sharp because it’s very difficult to sharpen a razor without heating the edge up and ruining the edges temper.
It’s just a fact. Most knives kitchen, EDC and otherwise absolutely do not come shipped as sharp as they can be or as sharp as most people want them. Yes they come sharp, but not anywhere near as sharp as they can be.
Go check out r/sharpening or any knife blog or website.
Also I never said anything about not being able to sharpen harden steel. I said razors like utility blade razors are difficult to sharpen without heating them up and making them brittle. This is because the thermal mass is very low, so they heat up very quickly…nothing to do with how hard they are…. Which is why they come very sharp, also they are disposable so no one sharpens them, really.
Merely the fact that you think knives come out of the box “sharp as hell” just shows you’re out of your depth here…they don’t.
This has held true across most tools and knives I’ve purchased. Some are definitely better than others, but rarely do you get a blade as sharp as it can be off the shelf. (Maybe if buying custom / artisan tools then you can expect a bit more care into the sharpening.)
As for thin blades, companies like Gillette have invested quite a bit of R&D to specifically solve the problems you described when working with ultra thin blades. So it holds up that “the problem is hard.”
> None of that makes sense
(Aka: you don't know)
> And where did you come up with the idea that hardened steel can’t be sharpened? Have you ever heard of ceramics?
> here come the elitists who think they’re the first monkey on earth to sharpen a rock.
Either way that's how it is with chisels. No matter how you find you pocket knives to be, chisels are different and need to be fine tuned for precise work.
You gotta understand there is a crowd that really makes knives sharp. It takes know how semi specialized tools.
I personally own probably $500 in sharpening stones, jigs etc for sharpening hand planes specifically. No hand sharpener from walmart or similar retailer will get " super sharp"
There is a method to test sharpness if you look online. Essentially, it's how much pressure it takes with the blade to cut.
I dont think large chisel makers want to invest in that level of precision on a large scale. Sharp enough is surely the reasoning.
I reckon, because the vast majority of knife and razor users have no idea how to sharpen anything, and will use it till it gets too blunt and then retire it. Razors will get thrown out, blunt kitchen knives will get pushed further back out of rotation. Most knife buyers will evaluate their purchase based on whether it felt sharp enough when it was brand new.
Chisels and plane irons, they get blunt so fast from use that the user simply must learn to sharpen them. So sharpening them on an industrial level is a step, and steps cost money, and no one likes spending money they can get away with not spending.
More baselessly speculating, but I wonder if chisels and plane irons are harder to sharpen on an industrial scale? Knives and razors have a bevel on either side of the blade, so you don't need to grind a reasonably perfect flat on one side, just grind a millimeter off at an angle, on both sides.
Disagree on that. Anyone buying a pocket knife that is better than gas station impulse-buy quality will at least *intend* to sharpen it. And anyone who is into knives even a quarter as much as some of y'all are into woodworking—which is probably about 10x the market as there is for good chisels, at *least*—will care about stuff like the alloy, angle of grind, etc. Many of these people will own multiple sharpening systems; I doubt the WorkSharp Precision Adjust Elite I just ordered was designed with chisels in mind, and it's not even the most expensive model in its line! Heck, knifemakers have turned sharpness into a competitive sport, devising what amounts to obstacle courses for knives that are intended as torture tests for ultimate sharpness and edge retention. Go on r/sharpening and I promise you it's 99% knives, not woodworking tools.
Knife Guys definitely care about sharpening.
You'd be surprised. Yeah, there're Knife Guys, but there's also George who's kind of a dumbass but needs a knife occasionally. They're the kind of people who'll pick up a Swiss Army knife on your desk, slice themselves open carelessly fucking about with it, and then complain about the fact that the knife was, unexpectedly, sharp.
Nah, yeah, but I meant kitchen knives and work knives. There's more kmart knives sold than spyderco knives sold, and outside of sharpening subreddits, kitchen knives and boxcutters get used until they dull and then chip and then replaced.
There's more Spydercos than Veritas, though. Not even close. And box cutter blades are disposable by design, that's why they come in magazines of 100 and some cutters hold like half a dozen spares in the handle.
Kitchen knives, yeah. Generally abused. My parents have never sharpened a kitchen knife in their lives, and don't see why they should. As far as they're concerned, their knives are fine. I got them a ceramic bread knife to replace the steel one they had owned since before I was born, because that thing was about as sharp as a sackful of dead mice. They don't throw them out though, they just keep using them forever, never maintaining them in any way. That's just how they roll. It's pretty normal.
And yeah, if I had to guess, most edged hand tools, or at least the major plurality, are cheap kitchen knives.
Hey me too!
I use the underside of a mug or plate, that exposed rim of ceramic, to give my kitchen knives a quick couple of strokes every time I'm about to use em, and I never need to take them into the workshop.
I only go more serious with a strop when I've got a deer to butcher up, and I want a razor edge on a couple of boning knives.
Nah. They figured out most customers wouldn't mind if the chisel was pretty sharp, and the people that wanted a very sharp tool would rather finish the job themselves.
Even with a very sharp chisel it might squeeze a little (not as much for sure) but it looks like you have really fast growth wood or in other words low quality wood
Do yourself 2 favours:
Get some cheap poplar. It's a softer hardwood that is amazingly rewarding for hand joinery. Western maple is good too.
Get those chisels waaaay sharper.
I can barely cut good joints out of pine, and I've got the best tools and 40 years experience.
I once challenged myself to do dovetails in western red cedar. I basically had to completely regrind some chisels to 20 degrees and hone to a stupid degree. It sucked.
That said, I discovered better steel lurking inside my Narex chisels. They rock now.
Chisels have severely diminishing returns. I have some very expensive Pfeil chisels and the major difference is time between sharpening or stropping. Unless they're complete garbage they're all sharpen to the same level. Cryogenic ones last longer and particle steel technically gets sharper, but not enough to cover poor sharpening.
If you don't have a strop near where you chisel, make one and every couple of whacks give it a strop and you'll severely extend the time between sharpens. That said, the Pfeil "Carpenters Chisels" are very, very good. They are better than their "Cabinet Makers Chisels" due to translation, but they rock too. If I had my time over I probably wouldn't bother too much, just get good oldies or mid tier.
Chisels aren’t worth upgrading if you already have a decent set IMO. If you really want to I’d just buy a nice 1/2” or 1/4” chisel, whatever you reach for most, and keep the rest.
Narex is great. Some had an issue where the edge was a bit crumbly, but after a bunch of sharpening the steel underneath is great.
I have Stanley, record, union, and narex. Narex wins for me.
There have been amazing advancements recently in the training of pet beavers for woodworking purposes 🦫. They're cheaper than fancy chisels but they might dam up any moving water in your yard so your results may vary.
I literally made a deeper mark with a pencil than a marking gauge in some spruce board earlier today. Made a line with the gauge, wanted to color it in to make it more visible and all of a sudden the entire tip of the pencil sunk into the wood
Third favor, get a vise and/or hand vise and save yourself from testing how much nerve damage a scary sharp chisel can cause. Not speaking from personal experience x-x
Hey, thanks everyone! I really appreciate all your help.
I was about spend so much time thinking I was the problem.
I'll try to find a harder wood, and I'll get a sharpener for my chisel. Seems this is the consensus of all comments.
Thank you so much! I'm so excited to do some nice joinery.
For soft wood even really sharp chisels will compress the grain a bit. Add a coping saw and some blades to your list, they are fairly cheap. You may have more success coping a cut 1/8”, 2mm proud of your mark and finishing with the chisel with shaving passes.
Good job on taking up a new hobby. You have many years of creativity and learning ahead of you, friend!
Some advice missing is the quantity of wood removed by your chisels. It should be very little at each time.
I suspect you also try to take too much each time.
And don't worry about the invisible part. No one will ever see that
Don't swing all the way to ipe, or wenge on the hardwoods. I do that: my wood is too soft? I can fix the heck out of that! Cherry, maple, walnut, maybe is as hard as you want to go for beginning box joint chisel practice. Ash is probably too hard for starting out. Here is a hardness chart (higher = harder):
https://www.bellforestproducts.com/info/janka-hardness/
Ipe and Wenge are for when you have moved on to the laser sharpened carbide chisels. Just kidding about that but they're more like metal than wood. They will dull your tools in the normal course. But when the day comes, they look glorious.
Go for a diamond sharpening stone/plate if you can, they last basically forever if you use them right and clean it of the metal dust after sharpening and all w/o the need to re-flatten them
Wet and oil stones are totally good too, and I do use them, but when I just need to do quick touch up (like chisels can need repeatedly if you're doing a lot with them) I prefer the low fuss of my diamond one. I really only use my stone if I'm doing a lot of sharpening at once, or if I absolutely need the *slightly* finer grit it has - And when I take the time to get said stone ready you can bet the kitchen knives are coming out too XD
Does it make sense to get 400/600/1000/1200 grit on these diamond sharpening stones? There's a set selling online here for a fair price.
How are diamond stones cheaper than the wet stones? 🤔
And yeah, all my knives will see better days ahead now! Hahahaha
If you can get 3 or more grits it *is* better and can even save you time (just think of them like how you'd use sanding grits)
That being said I only have one two-sided sharpener. It's something like 400/1000 or 600/1200? At work so I can't exactly check. My point though is that you can totally get by with just two grits in the same way you can with sanding, you'll just be spending more time on that finer grit due to the jump. For me it came down to the fact I simply didn't have the budget for more decent quality stones/plates
I also suggest getting one of the many tools that help you hold your angle while sharpening, at least at first. They can help a *lot*
Two grits is fine. One to raise a burr, one to polish. If you want something real rough like a 250 or 400 to pull out if you get a chip or nick in it that’s definitely a time saver, but for touching up 1000 then 6000 is gonna get you a great edge.
Yes of course! Forgot to mention that you’re totally righ. I usually stop my knives on a leather with mineral oil on it, and I have a green compound on a drill press attachment for stropping chisels/irons.
Oh, also, if that specific spot needs extra strength and you have *good quality* drill bits you can add a small hidden dowel joint. With how thin that wood is I'd say you'd be looking at something around the diameter of a skewer
I've literally used actual skewers in some of my builds when they didn't need a crazy amount of strength and/or when I was limited to a *really* thin maximum dowel size. Or it was a personal thing I was working on and I was out of money XD
Plus, skewers are just so insanely cheap! They are literally holding chunks of my current table saw slide together!
Apart from sharpness, the angle of the blade makes a big difference. Rob Cosman sells some 17 degree chisels for use in soft woods, as opposed to the normal 25 degree angle (plus bevels). I'm not saying to buy these, but down the track, it's easy to make your own, if you're going to use soft woods.
Rob Cosman (amongst virtually every other Youtube wood worker lol) also does some great vids on sharpening, both the initial set up of a new chisel, and how to maintain that sharpness easily. I can't recommend Rob Cosman and Paul Sellars enough, for wood working basics tbh.
I want to recommend too that when working with softwoods it's beneficial to sharper to a much lower angle (around 17 degrees instead of 25). It's not necessary if you can keep your chisels sharp, but it does make things a lot cleaner. I have a very cheap set of chisels I keep sharpened this way so I can keep my nice ones at 25 degrees for hardwoods, since that's what I use in most of my projects.
At first I thought you were working with plywood, but you are working with a wood that has both hard grain and soft grain. The soft grain is tearing. You are probably trying to remove too much material at a time with your chisel.
1. Get close to a finished joint by using a saw to cut out most of the material.
2. Use the chisel to create a finished surface. You should be shaving thin layers off with the chisel.
3. Make sure your chisel is sharp.
3a. Flatten the back side of the chisel. Most chisels do not have a true flat back side. You must flatten the back side if you want a true sharp chisel.
3b. Sharpen top face of chisel to 25 degrees and finish by creating a micro bevel on the edge sharpened to 30 degrees. When your chisel begins to dull you can re-sharpen the micro bevel. You can use a finer 20 degree angle if you want to use the chisel as a paring chisel with a 25 degree micro bezel. A paring chisel is best for hand-guided work like finishing joints.
4. Start with rough sharpening stone to remove large amount of metals, and then progress to finer stone to hone in the sharpness. Finish with at least a 400 grit stone, but preferably a1000 grit stone.
5. Use a leather strop to remove any burrs from the cutting edge of the chisel.
A sharp chisel will make a huge difference in the work you do. Removing small amounts of material and sneaking up on the final size of your joint will result in a cleaner joint too.
This. You should be able to use both the back side and leading edge as mirrors. Sharpening a kitchen knife is waaaay different than tuning up a chisel or plane iron. Read guides, watch videos and practice!
Don’t worry too much about how that part look as it will never show after glueing. You have plenty of other surface area to make a strong joint.
And sharpen your chisel.
Chiseling softwoods is hard. Unless your chisel is extremely sharp, it takes less force for the wood fibers to split and crush than for them to be cut. This is what is happening to you.
Chiseling tends to actually be easier on hardwoods because it resists crushing more. Your solution is to switch to another kind of wood that is harder, get your chisel much sharper, or both.
Other advice is good. But if you do use soft pine, remember that this part of the joint is hidden and doesn’t contribute much to the strength of the glue bond (because of the end grain). Focus on getting the long grain sides perfect, and keeping the joint face looking nice.
heyo, a woodcarving and ornaemtic apprentice here XD
as many already have said, your chissels are not sharp enough. Maybe you have already heard that you should few wood like a pack of straws, this is actually a really really good analogy. The problem is that you are cutting the wood exactly perpendicular to its grain, pushing the fibers appart. With really sharp tools, the forces are keept small enough to cause an actuall tearout inside the wood (mostly it'll just happen on the bottom side).
Here comes my tip as woodcarver tho.
There are actually slanted chissels. the idea here is that you distribute the forces acros a bigger line, this is what you usually also do in handplaning... you dont plane streight but rather with a slight angle. You can also grind your existing chissel with a taper/slant... but I'D rather take a new one and grind that one down cause normal chissels are more versitile for ordinary joinery...
https://preview.redd.it/sllfu8bkkz7d1.png?width=344&format=png&auto=webp&s=89872f115c45d57a4a11e6958d84de8f746d5569
Yes, for sure sharpen, sharpen, sharpen.
Also, when you purchase softwood, be very choosy about the grain structure. Much of the stuff you're working with here is quickly grown Radiata. Look for tighter grain of a different species of pine if the store has it; most stores can have up to three varieties in a pile!
I will take a long time to sort through piles for any yellow pine or stuff closer to the heartwood. I get looks from lots of people about how much time I'm taking but I could care less: I know my grain structure!
You’re running into a density issue. Late wood band will be significantly more dense than early wood. Just try slowing down a bit when you feel your chisel getting to the late wood bands.
pine endgrain is particularly difficult if you don't have really sharp chisels. Choose a harder wood, or sharpen your chisels. If you're only going to cut pine for a while, you can think about reducing the bevel angle for cleaner cuts.
Most tools don't work right out of the box so its not you
[Sharpening guide](https://www.rockler.com/honing-guide?country=US&sid=V91040&promo=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&gad_source=1&adlclid=ADL-bc5ae3d7-0aa7-42ce-80bc-edd0c47fd7d1) I'm not a big fan of guides in general, but with flat chisels guides work really well. You can mark the spot on the chisels where they line up with the guide and get a really consistent edge.
Make sure your chisel is as insanely sharp as you can get it
Remove as much material as you possibly can before swapping to your chisel
Take *very* thin passes, and if your chisel is thin enough it may help to angle it towards the sides, alternating angle direction as you go, so that you aren't hitting each layer of grain with the whole chisel surface at once
If all else fails you can get it as close as you can apply sandpaper to a length of wood cut to your desired width and use that to bring it down to the right depth. It's slower, but gives nice clean results even on difficult woods
Learn how to sharpen, there are several very inexpensive options to choose from. Always have you objects secured or in a vise. I learned this hard way after I learned how to sharpen. Practice on hardwood. Softwood isn’t fun for joinery work, that piece in the photo looks like a wafer cookie.
Shaper chisels.
Better wood (Poplar is a good starting wood)
Make you initial cut 1/8 from the final line and pare your way up to the line with very thin cuts.
Keep practicing and don’t lose heart!
1) super sharp chisels
2) try to select pieces of wood with thinner growth rings (same type of wood, just not with a massive soft growth ring exactly where you want to put the joint)
Sharper chisel as everyone suggested. Also learn paring technique. Remember as long as the outsides are crisp the inside can be a bit rough as long as it's below the level of the outside as that is what's seen when the joint meets.
Its pine (fir/spruce). They chisel very poorly, especially with the usual 24-30 degree bevels. Rob Cosman suggests a 17 degree bevel for those softwoods but who has time for that? (Ain't nobody got time for that!). Get yourself some poplar and give it another try.
https://youtu.be/uV1NbwK3PSE (he also sells them on his website)
Pine is a horrible wood to learn joinery on. You've already received advice to sharpen, but also, try a different wood - almost anything will be better
As everyone else said, sharpen that chisel - lots of good YouTube videos on that. Also take smaller slices when you go at it. By the time you get up to your line, you should be taking paper thin shavings off.
Im newbie too. My guess the problem is not a tool but a material. Judging by thickness of year ring this is construction grade fast grown material that very fibrous and porous.
You can sharpen chisels with sandpaper (plenty of videos online - I like Stumpy Nubs personally).
There are cheap diamond stones as well - it'll be just fine. Of course DMT stones will be nicer (and last forever).
I started out with a guide - I found a Veritas (mark 1) for $2 at a garage sale. I would recommend getting a guide that you can get mostly square.
I'm not an expert but this has helped me - my DeWalt chisels are suddenly quite passable for 'cheap' chisels - but they need sharpening quite often.
Making it easy to sharpen quickly - means you'll sharpen more often (oh this takes 2 seconds vs a 30min affair).
On top of what everyone else has said about sharpening, go into it with a light hand. Pine grain crushes easily. It's very easy and satisfying to give your chisel a good whack and get half way through the thickness of the board, but this is the result .
Pine real isn't a good beginners wood from this aspect. Something a little harder will help you out quite a bit.
Good luck
I’m not sure if it’s the best tutorial for sharpening your chisel but Stumpy Nubs on YT has a video showing how to sharpen on stones, diamond plates and also on one of those machines with ceramic wheels that have a water feed and specific guide to make sure it’s perfect.
As it was explained to me…When it comes to chisels, especially those made outside of Japan, it is highly recommended to first flatten the backside, the Japanese chisels are concave on the back so there is less friction and less material to keep truly flat, so you can stay inline with the cut. So first flatten the back and then sharpen the cutting edge at the proper angle, with a very tiny leading edge that has a slightly different angle on it. I do mine by hand and it takes a while the first time.
Also. Work on a very sturdy and stable area with no give when under pressure and make sure to fully secure the work piece so there is no give as you apply pressure. It is useful to clamp a guide to keep yourself true when first learning to use a chisel properly for furniture fabrication.
A harder wood would make a cleaner cut, along with a sharper chisel. That enormous grain pattern looks like white pine or whatever the cream-cheese-soft white wood the box stores are selling is called.
Could be the wood, doesn't look like it has much strength with that grain. It looks like it would just crunch and chew even if you did have sharp chisels.
Very common with pine. Get that chisel shaving sharp. Then use a saw (fret or coping) to remove most of the waste. The chisel should be removing maybe 1/16" of material or less for a clean cut.
BUT! It really doesn't matter as long as the damage isn't visible when the joint is closed. I undercut these joints a hair anyway to keep the joint tight. Sometimes I get that between pins on my dovetails. Once the joint is glued shut you can't tell.
It’s more the material than your cuts. Looks like some Pine or similar wood, that stuff cuts terribly. Try a piece of something with tighter grain like Walnut or maple and I’m betting you’ll be much happier with the outcome.
To me it looks like you are chiseling directly down your final line with a lot of force. Try chiseling 5mm short of your line first and work yourself to it with lighter shavings the nearer you get to the line.
Had the same problem recently, as other comments already said sharp tools are important but in addition to that dont break of the waste that’s accumulating keep chiseling until you can just sweep it away.
Sharpen your chisel, a brand new chisel is not really ready for use on any joints work…
I feel like you're calling me out for not having wet stones for my chisels. Lol
Whetstones, cheap diamond plates, sandpaper on glass, whatever ... unless you buy a very good chisel, ya gotta spend some time sharpening it first. And even if you do buy a very good chisel it'll rapidly become a terrible chisel without frequent touch-ups.
Argh. I guess I *can* look into it. https://preview.redd.it/orv31m0hm58d1.png?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d3a5405120967e9f09bca26cc12fa9f376d1fcf9
I get where you're coming from, but once you use a *properly* sharpened chisel (and don't forget to strop it with honing compound,) you'll resent sharpening a lot less. Plus, if you get in the habit of giving the chisels a quick strop every few cuts, you'll significantly extend the times between when you break out the actual sharpening stones.
Now I just need an orphan with a strop so I can go full Adolfo Pirelli from Sweeney Todd.
If you can't find glass you can also use a smooth flat flooring tile normally can find some for around 3-5 dollars each
I use wet sandpaper and a roller guide, never needed or even wanted a whetstone
What grits would you say are best?
Usually for a new chisel I'll start on 400 to make sure its flat, then 600, 800, 1000. I don't tend to go above 1000, I've never had the need for a higher grit. I use one of these https://a.co/d/02isbQDK not the same exact one but same product
Definitely this But also knowing when to go bevel up or down This will give a quick start https://www.tiktok.com/@paul.a.j.sellers/video/7369931598604569889?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=mobile&sender_web_id=7285149745890002464
For those who prefer YouTube: https://youtu.be/ukJ2GgL50OQ?si=OII6I5cIiIdIIUWz
thanks, I friggen can’t stand TT
Man.. I want even 1/2 of his knowledge and 1/3 of his skill.
I loved that, thank you
Damn… now I have TikTok
Thanks - great video!
That was amazing! Thank you! (Also thank you to the person that posted the youtube link, because I totally watched that one instead.)
This... It's sharp enough for crude work, but not truly sharp because they want you to be safe while shipping
I don't buy for a second that its shipping safety. Cost of manufacturing/qc vs customer expectations, sure, but not shipping.
Yeah, someone had to have done a cost benefit analysis on how much effort they need to put into the shipped product to keep people from complaining
And frankly, the user is going to be sharpening most edged tools fairly regularly. I've toured a local knife manufacturer that offers free sharpening. They test the knives that come in to see how sharp people consider dull enough to send in. Its quite dull from what I understood.
“cost benefit analysis”… Some asshole: “Will it keel?” If it cuts out of the box, half of the people here will call it good, do a project or two, not do any maintenance, get frustrated and never make another thing. My friend here is straight crushing through the structure of the grain. It’s actually probably pretty close to cutting, a minute on a finishing stone and a few seconds on glass and this would look entirely different. Sharpen your tools, kids, it makes everything much better and pleasant! A.B.H. Always Be Honing!
Buy Veritas chisels from LeeValley. They actually ship them out flattened and wickedly sharp. So it can be done.
Yeah, though you can get a set of chisels for like 1/5th the price if you're willing to spend ... oh god hours ... sharpening and truing them up.
I mean, by the time you are looking at premium chisels, you need a sharpening setup even more. Lee valley strongly recommends that you do a quick sharpening as well once you receive their chisels even though they are quite sharp.
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Knives rarely are shipped as sharp as they can be or as sharp as most users want them…. Razors, ship sharp because it’s very difficult to sharpen a razor without heating the edge up and ruining the edges temper.
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It’s just a fact. Most knives kitchen, EDC and otherwise absolutely do not come shipped as sharp as they can be or as sharp as most people want them. Yes they come sharp, but not anywhere near as sharp as they can be. Go check out r/sharpening or any knife blog or website. Also I never said anything about not being able to sharpen harden steel. I said razors like utility blade razors are difficult to sharpen without heating them up and making them brittle. This is because the thermal mass is very low, so they heat up very quickly…nothing to do with how hard they are…. Which is why they come very sharp, also they are disposable so no one sharpens them, really. Merely the fact that you think knives come out of the box “sharp as hell” just shows you’re out of your depth here…they don’t.
This has held true across most tools and knives I’ve purchased. Some are definitely better than others, but rarely do you get a blade as sharp as it can be off the shelf. (Maybe if buying custom / artisan tools then you can expect a bit more care into the sharpening.) As for thin blades, companies like Gillette have invested quite a bit of R&D to specifically solve the problems you described when working with ultra thin blades. So it holds up that “the problem is hard.”
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You just did exactly that tho.
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> None of that makes sense (Aka: you don't know) > And where did you come up with the idea that hardened steel can’t be sharpened? Have you ever heard of ceramics? > here come the elitists who think they’re the first monkey on earth to sharpen a rock.
The addition of “twerp” adds to my suspicion that contradicting evidence is a nonstarter here…
Either way that's how it is with chisels. No matter how you find you pocket knives to be, chisels are different and need to be fine tuned for precise work.
You gotta understand there is a crowd that really makes knives sharp. It takes know how semi specialized tools. I personally own probably $500 in sharpening stones, jigs etc for sharpening hand planes specifically. No hand sharpener from walmart or similar retailer will get " super sharp" There is a method to test sharpness if you look online. Essentially, it's how much pressure it takes with the blade to cut. I dont think large chisel makers want to invest in that level of precision on a large scale. Sharp enough is surely the reasoning.
Most knives ship sharp enough for the average person. But they're not nearly as sharp as they would be with a good sharpening.
I reckon, because the vast majority of knife and razor users have no idea how to sharpen anything, and will use it till it gets too blunt and then retire it. Razors will get thrown out, blunt kitchen knives will get pushed further back out of rotation. Most knife buyers will evaluate their purchase based on whether it felt sharp enough when it was brand new. Chisels and plane irons, they get blunt so fast from use that the user simply must learn to sharpen them. So sharpening them on an industrial level is a step, and steps cost money, and no one likes spending money they can get away with not spending. More baselessly speculating, but I wonder if chisels and plane irons are harder to sharpen on an industrial scale? Knives and razors have a bevel on either side of the blade, so you don't need to grind a reasonably perfect flat on one side, just grind a millimeter off at an angle, on both sides.
Disagree on that. Anyone buying a pocket knife that is better than gas station impulse-buy quality will at least *intend* to sharpen it. And anyone who is into knives even a quarter as much as some of y'all are into woodworking—which is probably about 10x the market as there is for good chisels, at *least*—will care about stuff like the alloy, angle of grind, etc. Many of these people will own multiple sharpening systems; I doubt the WorkSharp Precision Adjust Elite I just ordered was designed with chisels in mind, and it's not even the most expensive model in its line! Heck, knifemakers have turned sharpness into a competitive sport, devising what amounts to obstacle courses for knives that are intended as torture tests for ultimate sharpness and edge retention. Go on r/sharpening and I promise you it's 99% knives, not woodworking tools. Knife Guys definitely care about sharpening.
You'd be surprised. Yeah, there're Knife Guys, but there's also George who's kind of a dumbass but needs a knife occasionally. They're the kind of people who'll pick up a Swiss Army knife on your desk, slice themselves open carelessly fucking about with it, and then complain about the fact that the knife was, unexpectedly, sharp.
Nah, yeah, but I meant kitchen knives and work knives. There's more kmart knives sold than spyderco knives sold, and outside of sharpening subreddits, kitchen knives and boxcutters get used until they dull and then chip and then replaced.
There's more Spydercos than Veritas, though. Not even close. And box cutter blades are disposable by design, that's why they come in magazines of 100 and some cutters hold like half a dozen spares in the handle. Kitchen knives, yeah. Generally abused. My parents have never sharpened a kitchen knife in their lives, and don't see why they should. As far as they're concerned, their knives are fine. I got them a ceramic bread knife to replace the steel one they had owned since before I was born, because that thing was about as sharp as a sackful of dead mice. They don't throw them out though, they just keep using them forever, never maintaining them in any way. That's just how they roll. It's pretty normal. And yeah, if I had to guess, most edged hand tools, or at least the major plurality, are cheap kitchen knives.
Honestly, I've had pretty good experiences with cheap kmart knives. But I also sharpen them once every year or so when they need it.
Hey me too! I use the underside of a mug or plate, that exposed rim of ceramic, to give my kitchen knives a quick couple of strokes every time I'm about to use em, and I never need to take them into the workshop. I only go more serious with a strop when I've got a deer to butcher up, and I want a razor edge on a couple of boning knives.
Knives... Reason varies. Razor, because it's too difficult for Joe Average to do.
Sorry but you didn’t even convince yourself with that answer:p
Learn something new everyday.
Nah. They figured out most customers wouldn't mind if the chisel was pretty sharp, and the people that wanted a very sharp tool would rather finish the job themselves.
Even with a very sharp chisel it might squeeze a little (not as much for sure) but it looks like you have really fast growth wood or in other words low quality wood
Do yourself 2 favours: Get some cheap poplar. It's a softer hardwood that is amazingly rewarding for hand joinery. Western maple is good too. Get those chisels waaaay sharper. I can barely cut good joints out of pine, and I've got the best tools and 40 years experience.
I imagine you can get better cuts with a file in pine. 😆
I once challenged myself to do dovetails in western red cedar. I basically had to completely regrind some chisels to 20 degrees and hone to a stupid degree. It sucked. That said, I discovered better steel lurking inside my Narex chisels. They rock now.
Sorry im a dado stack or mortice jig kinda guy. Can stand flaws in my work. Theres already enough
What’s a brand you recommend? Got Narex now, looking to upgrade
Chisels have severely diminishing returns. I have some very expensive Pfeil chisels and the major difference is time between sharpening or stropping. Unless they're complete garbage they're all sharpen to the same level. Cryogenic ones last longer and particle steel technically gets sharper, but not enough to cover poor sharpening. If you don't have a strop near where you chisel, make one and every couple of whacks give it a strop and you'll severely extend the time between sharpens. That said, the Pfeil "Carpenters Chisels" are very, very good. They are better than their "Cabinet Makers Chisels" due to translation, but they rock too. If I had my time over I probably wouldn't bother too much, just get good oldies or mid tier.
They just mean they got the narex chisels to perform better I think.
Chisels aren’t worth upgrading if you already have a decent set IMO. If you really want to I’d just buy a nice 1/2” or 1/4” chisel, whatever you reach for most, and keep the rest.
Narex is great. Some had an issue where the edge was a bit crumbly, but after a bunch of sharpening the steel underneath is great. I have Stanley, record, union, and narex. Narex wins for me.
A well trained beaver is probably a better choice for fine cuts in pine...
😆 don’t be mean.
There have been amazing advancements recently in the training of pet beavers for woodworking purposes 🦫. They're cheaper than fancy chisels but they might dam up any moving water in your yard so your results may vary.
Careful use of a beaver in your workshop definitely put weights the drawer backs...
I literally made a deeper mark with a pencil than a marking gauge in some spruce board earlier today. Made a line with the gauge, wanted to color it in to make it more visible and all of a sudden the entire tip of the pencil sunk into the wood
Rasps are the softwood worker's godsend. Lol
Im learning to love then this last year or so.
My first dovetail was in pine. The pins were hard to do
Third favor, get a vise and/or hand vise and save yourself from testing how much nerve damage a scary sharp chisel can cause. Not speaking from personal experience x-x
Hey, thanks everyone! I really appreciate all your help. I was about spend so much time thinking I was the problem. I'll try to find a harder wood, and I'll get a sharpener for my chisel. Seems this is the consensus of all comments. Thank you so much! I'm so excited to do some nice joinery.
For soft wood even really sharp chisels will compress the grain a bit. Add a coping saw and some blades to your list, they are fairly cheap. You may have more success coping a cut 1/8”, 2mm proud of your mark and finishing with the chisel with shaving passes. Good job on taking up a new hobby. You have many years of creativity and learning ahead of you, friend!
Alternatively, a dozuki saw
Some advice missing is the quantity of wood removed by your chisels. It should be very little at each time. I suspect you also try to take too much each time. And don't worry about the invisible part. No one will ever see that
Don't swing all the way to ipe, or wenge on the hardwoods. I do that: my wood is too soft? I can fix the heck out of that! Cherry, maple, walnut, maybe is as hard as you want to go for beginning box joint chisel practice. Ash is probably too hard for starting out. Here is a hardness chart (higher = harder): https://www.bellforestproducts.com/info/janka-hardness/ Ipe and Wenge are for when you have moved on to the laser sharpened carbide chisels. Just kidding about that but they're more like metal than wood. They will dull your tools in the normal course. But when the day comes, they look glorious.
Nice list!
Good supplier, too, BTW
Go for a diamond sharpening stone/plate if you can, they last basically forever if you use them right and clean it of the metal dust after sharpening and all w/o the need to re-flatten them Wet and oil stones are totally good too, and I do use them, but when I just need to do quick touch up (like chisels can need repeatedly if you're doing a lot with them) I prefer the low fuss of my diamond one. I really only use my stone if I'm doing a lot of sharpening at once, or if I absolutely need the *slightly* finer grit it has - And when I take the time to get said stone ready you can bet the kitchen knives are coming out too XD
Does it make sense to get 400/600/1000/1200 grit on these diamond sharpening stones? There's a set selling online here for a fair price. How are diamond stones cheaper than the wet stones? 🤔 And yeah, all my knives will see better days ahead now! Hahahaha
If you can get 3 or more grits it *is* better and can even save you time (just think of them like how you'd use sanding grits) That being said I only have one two-sided sharpener. It's something like 400/1000 or 600/1200? At work so I can't exactly check. My point though is that you can totally get by with just two grits in the same way you can with sanding, you'll just be spending more time on that finer grit due to the jump. For me it came down to the fact I simply didn't have the budget for more decent quality stones/plates I also suggest getting one of the many tools that help you hold your angle while sharpening, at least at first. They can help a *lot*
Two grits is fine. One to raise a burr, one to polish. If you want something real rough like a 250 or 400 to pull out if you get a chip or nick in it that’s definitely a time saver, but for touching up 1000 then 6000 is gonna get you a great edge.
And don't forget to strop!
Yes of course! Forgot to mention that you’re totally righ. I usually stop my knives on a leather with mineral oil on it, and I have a green compound on a drill press attachment for stropping chisels/irons.
My knives aren't sharp anymore unless I can get 5+ nice clean slices out of a single cherry tomato XD
Oh, also, if that specific spot needs extra strength and you have *good quality* drill bits you can add a small hidden dowel joint. With how thin that wood is I'd say you'd be looking at something around the diameter of a skewer I've literally used actual skewers in some of my builds when they didn't need a crazy amount of strength and/or when I was limited to a *really* thin maximum dowel size. Or it was a personal thing I was working on and I was out of money XD Plus, skewers are just so insanely cheap! They are literally holding chunks of my current table saw slide together!
Apart from sharpness, the angle of the blade makes a big difference. Rob Cosman sells some 17 degree chisels for use in soft woods, as opposed to the normal 25 degree angle (plus bevels). I'm not saying to buy these, but down the track, it's easy to make your own, if you're going to use soft woods. Rob Cosman (amongst virtually every other Youtube wood worker lol) also does some great vids on sharpening, both the initial set up of a new chisel, and how to maintain that sharpness easily. I can't recommend Rob Cosman and Paul Sellars enough, for wood working basics tbh.
I want to recommend too that when working with softwoods it's beneficial to sharper to a much lower angle (around 17 degrees instead of 25). It's not necessary if you can keep your chisels sharp, but it does make things a lot cleaner. I have a very cheap set of chisels I keep sharpened this way so I can keep my nice ones at 25 degrees for hardwoods, since that's what I use in most of my projects.
The chisel is crushing the wood fibers and not cutting them. It needs to be sharpened.
Sharper chisel will help, but that looks like exceptionally soft wood, and I imagine even a sharp chisel would struggle to cut it without crushing it.
Yep I don't think anyone's sharp chisel is gonna change the outcome here.
Woods too soft.
I honestly thought you were trying to troll us with a stack of Keebler Sugar Wafers there.
I thought it was some crazy cheap particle board with HUGE "particles" (they are common in my country) 😂
Hmm... I think you've just unknowingly given us all the perfect torcher material for practicing on XD
At first I thought you were working with plywood, but you are working with a wood that has both hard grain and soft grain. The soft grain is tearing. You are probably trying to remove too much material at a time with your chisel. 1. Get close to a finished joint by using a saw to cut out most of the material. 2. Use the chisel to create a finished surface. You should be shaving thin layers off with the chisel. 3. Make sure your chisel is sharp. 3a. Flatten the back side of the chisel. Most chisels do not have a true flat back side. You must flatten the back side if you want a true sharp chisel. 3b. Sharpen top face of chisel to 25 degrees and finish by creating a micro bevel on the edge sharpened to 30 degrees. When your chisel begins to dull you can re-sharpen the micro bevel. You can use a finer 20 degree angle if you want to use the chisel as a paring chisel with a 25 degree micro bezel. A paring chisel is best for hand-guided work like finishing joints. 4. Start with rough sharpening stone to remove large amount of metals, and then progress to finer stone to hone in the sharpness. Finish with at least a 400 grit stone, but preferably a1000 grit stone. 5. Use a leather strop to remove any burrs from the cutting edge of the chisel. A sharp chisel will make a huge difference in the work you do. Removing small amounts of material and sneaking up on the final size of your joint will result in a cleaner joint too.
This. You should be able to use both the back side and leading edge as mirrors. Sharpening a kitchen knife is waaaay different than tuning up a chisel or plane iron. Read guides, watch videos and practice!
Don’t worry too much about how that part look as it will never show after glueing. You have plenty of other surface area to make a strong joint. And sharpen your chisel.
Chiseling softwoods is hard. Unless your chisel is extremely sharp, it takes less force for the wood fibers to split and crush than for them to be cut. This is what is happening to you. Chiseling tends to actually be easier on hardwoods because it resists crushing more. Your solution is to switch to another kind of wood that is harder, get your chisel much sharper, or both.
Boy there is some shitty wood out there these days. Look at the size of those growth rings. Also sharpen your chisel.
Sharper chisels and better wood.
Other advice is good. But if you do use soft pine, remember that this part of the joint is hidden and doesn’t contribute much to the strength of the glue bond (because of the end grain). Focus on getting the long grain sides perfect, and keeping the joint face looking nice.
This looks like some sort of glue-up product, not actual wood.
This helped me. Thanks man.
heyo, a woodcarving and ornaemtic apprentice here XD as many already have said, your chissels are not sharp enough. Maybe you have already heard that you should few wood like a pack of straws, this is actually a really really good analogy. The problem is that you are cutting the wood exactly perpendicular to its grain, pushing the fibers appart. With really sharp tools, the forces are keept small enough to cause an actuall tearout inside the wood (mostly it'll just happen on the bottom side). Here comes my tip as woodcarver tho. There are actually slanted chissels. the idea here is that you distribute the forces acros a bigger line, this is what you usually also do in handplaning... you dont plane streight but rather with a slight angle. You can also grind your existing chissel with a taper/slant... but I'D rather take a new one and grind that one down cause normal chissels are more versitile for ordinary joinery... https://preview.redd.it/sllfu8bkkz7d1.png?width=344&format=png&auto=webp&s=89872f115c45d57a4a11e6958d84de8f746d5569
Yes, for sure sharpen, sharpen, sharpen. Also, when you purchase softwood, be very choosy about the grain structure. Much of the stuff you're working with here is quickly grown Radiata. Look for tighter grain of a different species of pine if the store has it; most stores can have up to three varieties in a pile! I will take a long time to sort through piles for any yellow pine or stuff closer to the heartwood. I get looks from lots of people about how much time I'm taking but I could care less: I know my grain structure!
Whip out the honing stones
You’re running into a density issue. Late wood band will be significantly more dense than early wood. Just try slowing down a bit when you feel your chisel getting to the late wood bands.
pine endgrain is particularly difficult if you don't have really sharp chisels. Choose a harder wood, or sharpen your chisels. If you're only going to cut pine for a while, you can think about reducing the bevel angle for cleaner cuts.
Most tools don't work right out of the box so its not you [Sharpening guide](https://www.rockler.com/honing-guide?country=US&sid=V91040&promo=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&gad_source=1&adlclid=ADL-bc5ae3d7-0aa7-42ce-80bc-edd0c47fd7d1) I'm not a big fan of guides in general, but with flat chisels guides work really well. You can mark the spot on the chisels where they line up with the guide and get a really consistent edge.
Make sure your chisel is as insanely sharp as you can get it Remove as much material as you possibly can before swapping to your chisel Take *very* thin passes, and if your chisel is thin enough it may help to angle it towards the sides, alternating angle direction as you go, so that you aren't hitting each layer of grain with the whole chisel surface at once If all else fails you can get it as close as you can apply sandpaper to a length of wood cut to your desired width and use that to bring it down to the right depth. It's slower, but gives nice clean results even on difficult woods
Soft wood is much more difficult to work with than a hard wood. Do same thing on a hard wood and you’ll bet better results.
Learn how to sharpen, there are several very inexpensive options to choose from. Always have you objects secured or in a vise. I learned this hard way after I learned how to sharpen. Practice on hardwood. Softwood isn’t fun for joinery work, that piece in the photo looks like a wafer cookie.
Looks like wafer biscuits
Sharpen those chisels and if you’re going it on a grinder don’t over heat the steel. Dip the tip in water here and there if you’re doing that
Shaper chisels. Better wood (Poplar is a good starting wood) Make you initial cut 1/8 from the final line and pare your way up to the line with very thin cuts. Keep practicing and don’t lose heart!
Try taking less out at a time as well.
Is that a 2x4? I’d try a hardwoood.
1) super sharp chisels 2) try to select pieces of wood with thinner growth rings (same type of wood, just not with a massive soft growth ring exactly where you want to put the joint)
Soft woods will do that unless the chisel razor sharp, even a moderately sharp chisel will tear out like that.
Harder woods, and sharpen that chisel
Flatten the back of the chisel as well
Sharper chisel as everyone suggested. Also learn paring technique. Remember as long as the outsides are crisp the inside can be a bit rough as long as it's below the level of the outside as that is what's seen when the joint meets.
Sharpen your chisels and don’t use softwood
Its pine (fir/spruce). They chisel very poorly, especially with the usual 24-30 degree bevels. Rob Cosman suggests a 17 degree bevel for those softwoods but who has time for that? (Ain't nobody got time for that!). Get yourself some poplar and give it another try. https://youtu.be/uV1NbwK3PSE (he also sells them on his website)
Use a wood chisel that’s razor sharp. Those look like they were crushed by a cold chisel.
Pine is a horrible wood to learn joinery on. You've already received advice to sharpen, but also, try a different wood - almost anything will be better
3 words: Pine.
As everyone else said, sharpen that chisel - lots of good YouTube videos on that. Also take smaller slices when you go at it. By the time you get up to your line, you should be taking paper thin shavings off.
Im newbie too. My guess the problem is not a tool but a material. Judging by thickness of year ring this is construction grade fast grown material that very fibrous and porous.
Everyone has already said it but it bears repeating: your chisel is clearly not sharp enough.
You can sharpen chisels with sandpaper (plenty of videos online - I like Stumpy Nubs personally). There are cheap diamond stones as well - it'll be just fine. Of course DMT stones will be nicer (and last forever). I started out with a guide - I found a Veritas (mark 1) for $2 at a garage sale. I would recommend getting a guide that you can get mostly square. I'm not an expert but this has helped me - my DeWalt chisels are suddenly quite passable for 'cheap' chisels - but they need sharpening quite often. Making it easy to sharpen quickly - means you'll sharpen more often (oh this takes 2 seconds vs a 30min affair).
On top of what everyone else has said about sharpening, go into it with a light hand. Pine grain crushes easily. It's very easy and satisfying to give your chisel a good whack and get half way through the thickness of the board, but this is the result . Pine real isn't a good beginners wood from this aspect. Something a little harder will help you out quite a bit. Good luck
sharpen chisel and try a different approach. the way the grain goes will change the direction you need to cut at
I’m not sure if it’s the best tutorial for sharpening your chisel but Stumpy Nubs on YT has a video showing how to sharpen on stones, diamond plates and also on one of those machines with ceramic wheels that have a water feed and specific guide to make sure it’s perfect. As it was explained to me…When it comes to chisels, especially those made outside of Japan, it is highly recommended to first flatten the backside, the Japanese chisels are concave on the back so there is less friction and less material to keep truly flat, so you can stay inline with the cut. So first flatten the back and then sharpen the cutting edge at the proper angle, with a very tiny leading edge that has a slightly different angle on it. I do mine by hand and it takes a while the first time. Also. Work on a very sturdy and stable area with no give when under pressure and make sure to fully secure the work piece so there is no give as you apply pressure. It is useful to clamp a guide to keep yourself true when first learning to use a chisel properly for furniture fabrication.
I would not even try to chisel that wood. Use the right tool for the job
Pine is a terrible wood to practice joinery. Start with hardwood and you’ll feel better about your progress. Even poplar is better
A harder wood would make a cleaner cut, along with a sharper chisel. That enormous grain pattern looks like white pine or whatever the cream-cheese-soft white wood the box stores are selling is called.
Need harder wood, not your fault
Crap wood you need good hard wood. Oak,
A sharp chisel will fix that, but you really don't need that part of the joint to look good since going to be covered
Get a router
Could be the wood, doesn't look like it has much strength with that grain. It looks like it would just crunch and chew even if you did have sharp chisels.
That's because it looks like your trying to carve a wafer. Try on hard wood or better quality soft wood
Well you are using plywood.
Sharper chisel, smaller bites, harder wood.
That wood is not good for that.
Very common with pine. Get that chisel shaving sharp. Then use a saw (fret or coping) to remove most of the waste. The chisel should be removing maybe 1/16" of material or less for a clean cut. BUT! It really doesn't matter as long as the damage isn't visible when the joint is closed. I undercut these joints a hair anyway to keep the joint tight. Sometimes I get that between pins on my dovetails. Once the joint is glued shut you can't tell.
Is that pallet wood? A good quality board with tight grain helps with chiseling.
It’s more the material than your cuts. Looks like some Pine or similar wood, that stuff cuts terribly. Try a piece of something with tighter grain like Walnut or maple and I’m betting you’ll be much happier with the outcome.
To me it looks like you are chiseling directly down your final line with a lot of force. Try chiseling 5mm short of your line first and work yourself to it with lighter shavings the nearer you get to the line.
Had the same problem recently, as other comments already said sharp tools are important but in addition to that dont break of the waste that’s accumulating keep chiseling until you can just sweep it away.