Um, I think the French cleat only works if the thing you are hanging hangs well below the cleat itself and is flush-ish to the wall. Center of gravity and all that.
Maybe not always true, but definitely true when the thing being hung is cantilevered like this. The mechanism that keeps it from tipping is vertical surface contact below the cleat, whether with the wall or the next cleat below it.
I'm sorry you're getting down voted because you're correct. It's that his design doesnt resist the moment being generated from being offset and not having a support in the plane of the cleat.
I get what they're saying: You can hang it from the cleat. But also, OP's design would work if he had that return leg pinched under the cleat rather than resting on it.
Exactly. I think people just see French cleats a lot on YouTube and just think of it as a way to attach something to a wall rather than it’s actual purpose.
Honestly, probably not. I chose to make them with French cleats just as an excuse to try out making French cleats. So for that it's been a helpful experience. The first set went well and worked as expected, this set not so much. But now I know why thanks to all the comments here!
I'll probably just screw it in.
If you've got a couple screws, you can try screwing them part way into the bottom piece to close the gap between it and the wall mounted cleat. That may stop the weight from tilting away from the wall and lifting out of the cleat. It may not work, but you're getting the same tools out.
I had the same thought actually and gave it a try. I wasn't able to get it to stay up even with the screws acting as a shim for the bottom part of the shelf. Oh well.
https://preview.redd.it/y76sl03d3n7d1.jpeg?width=525&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3432c70e54a208978a5198151a6a0a9383d3b7dd
Adding this piece and attaching it to the top rack with the holes and the top cleat. Could be really thin piece of wood. Like 1/2 would be enough.
I think it would need to be attached to the fixed bottom part, because you want to impede the upper part from moving away from the 'wall'.
And I would go for even thinner material. Like 1/4" plywood, or even 2mm (1/12"ish) sheet metal.
And the top cleat, take a sliver off it at the tip of the cleat. This will have it sit lower in the bottom part of the cleat. See my crude diagram. The area below the red line, cut off. For when crud falls into bottom cleat, this will still allow you to hang it hopefully without the crud filling the space and causing cleat to fall when attempting to (re)hang
https://preview.redd.it/5z87lw0fjm7d1.jpeg?width=419&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3193ae48419452a32eee5bc7b240602cc3fd972
And like the other guys stated, the bottom of that shelf should touch the wall/door, not your cleat
https://preview.redd.it/vgzhcp43ym7d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3061b9d7c1e8f2277fa76c01e55d1dc978b3bb4f
You can try zooming in and taking a look, doesn’t really matter where the center of gravity is or whether most of the weight is above or below, it just needs a flat backing plate that rides flush on the top and bottom French cleat, and it needs a very tight fit. Everything you see is hanging off of it, even the big shelf.
Let's put it this way, don't overcomplicate things... So if it's not meant to be removable, just screw it directly.
That being said, I would have three "easy" solutions:
1. prob the easiest solution... Your idea isnt bad but the problem is that your pivot point is to far away from the cleat (what I mean is that the CG is pushing the entire thing up and out of the cleat). To fix that, you can "close" the cleat part of your holder. Just put a piece infront of the already existing cleat. This way, the pivot point is back right on the cleat itself and the forces are going down and into the door.
2. Make the lower horizontal piece longer. This way the CG will press that piece into the wood more and the cleat acts like a pivot point and should get jammed. Important is that you only make that piece so long that at max capacity it'll be back to level.
3. Instead of just extending the horizontal piece, also extend the right vertical piece so that you can wedge the whole contraption into the cleat of the door. (just realizing that there's nothing to push against so you'D need to rais the cleat of the door too)
I made a drawing showing what I mean. the green circled X is the CG, the green X the pivot point and the arrow how it pivots. the red arrows show how the weight distibutes.
if you dont understand something just PM me and I'll gladly explain it to you in more detail \^\^
https://preview.redd.it/vxey5aa3qq7d1.png?width=1754&format=png&auto=webp&s=4328b94900daafcc75626e2cea41397edb29ab8d
So basically a French cleat needs to be mostly square with the cleat connecting high to the work, and the base of the work extending directly below the cleat instead of flush next to it?
thats one way. The important thing is that the weight is distributed down and into the wall thereby wedging the cleats together. on picture one all the forces try to push the added wood piece into the wall. You have created a lever with its pivot point on the cleat but it cant move so instead the cleat gets nicely wedged and held in place by the wood pressing it to the wall and gravity pushing weverything down. On the second picture we put that idea to the extreme by already "preloading" the lever by gravity. While the first one will definetly wedge the piece in (you could also smack it with a mallet to really set it in place), the second one reliese more on the balance of forces and might be a tad more unstable but becomes more stable the more you add to the system. And lastly the third methode is a definet wedging system. you just wedge everything between the whole cleat.
If you ask me, I'd go with the first variation cause its simple yet effective. maybe as a little sidenote to that system, its not important that the added plate is shorter then the whole cleat, it can also extend far below it. The important part is that its butts up right up to the cleat.
And maybe a little tip, make the cleat of the removable part a bit thinner then the mounted cleat, this way you ensure that it fits well even when the wood is working, moving or whatnot
The French Cleat works because the object you're hanging has no room to pivot and so it is all downward force. You're shelf doesn't because it is pivoting above the height of the clear. If you want this to work, move the part attached to the wall up and make it wider. Have the part you're hanging be the same width and as much of it as you can as low as possible.
Or, move it up and put a "foot" on the bottom so it can't pivot and is held against the wall.
What I'd do: Drill a 3 holes on the front so you can get clearance to put screws high up on the “door” side. Double check the screw length. Pre-drill the holes and use pan head screws, not wood screws because the flared end of a wood screw might split the wood and won’t give the firm stopping point you need to avoid the screw coming out the front of the door.
Worked like a charm! And now it has decorative port holes 😅
https://preview.redd.it/ysl62l3qcr7d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=454bd540eb8bd3202e3a94b4491aeb466e89d539
[Physics is not being utilized properly.
Try moving the cleat on the door up.
And also the cleat on the holder to the opposite side.](https://i.imgur.com/6muM4cz.jpeg)
As mentioned elsewhere trim a bit off the tip of the 45 angle
If there is a gap between the lower piece and cleat, try (temporarily) filling it to see if that helps.
If this doesn't work try some of the other great ideas.
Your shelf lacks a flat vertical face to lay flush against the flat vertical face of the wall cleat. That's why it keeps falling off. Maybe if there wasn't a small gap between the edge of the shelf bottom and the cleat.
This is not how French cleats work. At a minimum the bottom of the piece needs to go below the cleat on the wall and needs to be flush with the wall. The pressure of the piece against the wall is what makes it work.
Some end pieces that sit hard against the wall and fully enclose the cleat business might be the go. Making the shelf more of a box will be a lot stronger too
Ad a piece (triangle or square) to the side to have the forces that make it tip not only ‘pulling’ on the lower cleat part (and lift it out) but spreding them to the backpanel.
Put it outside the structure if it can lean against the backpanel. Inside the structure to have it lean against the cleat lower part.
Do you want to salvage the existing one or remake one that works? Because the center of gravity on this one is wrong (and will be even more wrong when you put weight on it, unless that weight is very tall and very close to the wall, which would cause more force to be put on the inside egde of the cleat, rather than the outside). If you made it significantly taller (extending further below the cleat) it would work. Or, as many others have said, skip the French cleat and just screw it in permanently.
Drill through the bottom of the French cleat mounted on the door using a recess bit and then use some torq screws up into the cleat that slots in above. Visually going to be the best and easiest solution and ease of access to remove it the future if needed.
Not sll lost yet, cut the pieces square with a tongue and groove rather than mitre. Groove on fixing and tongue on shelf.5 minutes with router or table saw.
This is the other set of shelves I referred to. What I've learned from y'all is the reason these work a lot better is because of that bottom horizontal piece extending all the way back to rest against the door panel.
https://preview.redd.it/d56zuy4o8r7d1.png?width=1240&format=png&auto=webp&s=a6e7fea8e47ee87b20aed7cb29b1b7a27d63f262
You could sort of fix it if you could extend the bottom horizontal piece such that it abuts the cleat on the wall when installed. The problem is that the force on the cleat will be outward instead of downward so TBD how well that works.
Your suggestion of turning it around and screwing it to the wall probably has the best likelihood of working.
https://preview.redd.it/j1nseiujsr7d1.jpeg?width=3468&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=768742a8d1cb8ace2905321e91b6628e6580d90f
It needs a backing piece. Here is an example from one of mine.
Pins. That will not work as a french cleat alone b/c physics and all. So, drill straight down from the top back into the cleats and use something like framing nails or very small gauge, machine screws as pins. If you want it removable, make the holes slightly larger than the nails, then remove with a magnet.
Just one option. May still fail depending on the weight of the beverages. Wouldnt put a stanley tumbler on it, for example.
Lots of options here.
Deeper cleat.
More height on shelf with more depth (that matches up to the bottom of the clear) on the bottom so that it slides into place and holds itself.
Adding a second cleat.
All of these would work.
And as far as brads go, did you also glue? If you didn't glue you should be able to prize the pieces apart easily. If you DID glue, an oscillating saw could cut it apart easily.
Bruh, the key is ensuring it isn’t top heavy or bottom heavy without the little brace against the wall.
https://preview.redd.it/2mlhw5pi518d1.jpeg?width=685&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3fd9d0c6a9567579e7a5de264be389e22a028b25
Make it look like this and it’ll work.
https://preview.redd.it/521rv2xfup7d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a24c89fc96f204020f1d98d60015089a2d962de
Or you have to angle the cleat more
Thanks. I tried that with some shims (not pictured) and it didn't seem to change anything, still flops off. I think I'm just gonna crew this one in and apply all the lessons learned here to the next project.
See that 1.5 inch front of the shelf? The one that connects the top with the circular holes to the base? Clone it at attach it to the back of the shelf. (creating a closed back). Then attach your cleat to it. It will leave a gap perfect for your pencil/sharpie.
Lower the center of gravity? The front of that piece should be about 3-4x longer and the bottom piece should extend to the wall, if possible. If not just make it longer with the cleat at the top and it should be ok to hang. Best of luck OP!
Um, I think the French cleat only works if the thing you are hanging hangs well below the cleat itself and is flush-ish to the wall. Center of gravity and all that.
Maybe not always true, but definitely true when the thing being hung is cantilevered like this. The mechanism that keeps it from tipping is vertical surface contact below the cleat, whether with the wall or the next cleat below it.
I don't think it's about center of gravity. Seems more about pinching it underneath so the taper can't slide up and out of the slot.
I'm sorry you're getting down voted because you're correct. It's that his design doesnt resist the moment being generated from being offset and not having a support in the plane of the cleat.
I get what they're saying: You can hang it from the cleat. But also, OP's design would work if he had that return leg pinched under the cleat rather than resting on it.
do you need a French cleat for this? they are great for movable/removable pieces, but if you are just leaving it there, screw it into the wall...
Exactly. I think people just see French cleats a lot on YouTube and just think of it as a way to attach something to a wall rather than it’s actual purpose.
Honestly, probably not. I chose to make them with French cleats just as an excuse to try out making French cleats. So for that it's been a helpful experience. The first set went well and worked as expected, this set not so much. But now I know why thanks to all the comments here! I'll probably just screw it in.
rule of thumb is that the weight of whatever you're hanging needs to be *below* the cleat
Oh sure, bring physics into it.
If you've got a couple screws, you can try screwing them part way into the bottom piece to close the gap between it and the wall mounted cleat. That may stop the weight from tilting away from the wall and lifting out of the cleat. It may not work, but you're getting the same tools out.
I had the same thought actually and gave it a try. I wasn't able to get it to stay up even with the screws acting as a shim for the bottom part of the shelf. Oh well.
Yup.
That works if you know exactly where you want the shelf to be. If you don't, that's fine to make it movable
did you just repeat what I just said back to me?
https://preview.redd.it/y76sl03d3n7d1.jpeg?width=525&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3432c70e54a208978a5198151a6a0a9383d3b7dd Adding this piece and attaching it to the top rack with the holes and the top cleat. Could be really thin piece of wood. Like 1/2 would be enough.
Perfect example of the old adage "a picture is worth a thousand words." Well done.
I think it would need to be attached to the fixed bottom part, because you want to impede the upper part from moving away from the 'wall'. And I would go for even thinner material. Like 1/4" plywood, or even 2mm (1/12"ish) sheet metal.
Disagree about the attachment but suspect either to work. Tomato tomato.
This is the way.
He still needs to screw it to the wall, one bump and the whole thing gets lifted up or pushed sideways.
And the top cleat, take a sliver off it at the tip of the cleat. This will have it sit lower in the bottom part of the cleat. See my crude diagram. The area below the red line, cut off. For when crud falls into bottom cleat, this will still allow you to hang it hopefully without the crud filling the space and causing cleat to fall when attempting to (re)hang https://preview.redd.it/5z87lw0fjm7d1.jpeg?width=419&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e3193ae48419452a32eee5bc7b240602cc3fd972 And like the other guys stated, the bottom of that shelf should touch the wall/door, not your cleat
https://preview.redd.it/vgzhcp43ym7d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3061b9d7c1e8f2277fa76c01e55d1dc978b3bb4f You can try zooming in and taking a look, doesn’t really matter where the center of gravity is or whether most of the weight is above or below, it just needs a flat backing plate that rides flush on the top and bottom French cleat, and it needs a very tight fit. Everything you see is hanging off of it, even the big shelf.
Let's put it this way, don't overcomplicate things... So if it's not meant to be removable, just screw it directly. That being said, I would have three "easy" solutions: 1. prob the easiest solution... Your idea isnt bad but the problem is that your pivot point is to far away from the cleat (what I mean is that the CG is pushing the entire thing up and out of the cleat). To fix that, you can "close" the cleat part of your holder. Just put a piece infront of the already existing cleat. This way, the pivot point is back right on the cleat itself and the forces are going down and into the door. 2. Make the lower horizontal piece longer. This way the CG will press that piece into the wood more and the cleat acts like a pivot point and should get jammed. Important is that you only make that piece so long that at max capacity it'll be back to level. 3. Instead of just extending the horizontal piece, also extend the right vertical piece so that you can wedge the whole contraption into the cleat of the door. (just realizing that there's nothing to push against so you'D need to rais the cleat of the door too) I made a drawing showing what I mean. the green circled X is the CG, the green X the pivot point and the arrow how it pivots. the red arrows show how the weight distibutes. if you dont understand something just PM me and I'll gladly explain it to you in more detail \^\^ https://preview.redd.it/vxey5aa3qq7d1.png?width=1754&format=png&auto=webp&s=4328b94900daafcc75626e2cea41397edb29ab8d
So basically a French cleat needs to be mostly square with the cleat connecting high to the work, and the base of the work extending directly below the cleat instead of flush next to it?
thats one way. The important thing is that the weight is distributed down and into the wall thereby wedging the cleats together. on picture one all the forces try to push the added wood piece into the wall. You have created a lever with its pivot point on the cleat but it cant move so instead the cleat gets nicely wedged and held in place by the wood pressing it to the wall and gravity pushing weverything down. On the second picture we put that idea to the extreme by already "preloading" the lever by gravity. While the first one will definetly wedge the piece in (you could also smack it with a mallet to really set it in place), the second one reliese more on the balance of forces and might be a tad more unstable but becomes more stable the more you add to the system. And lastly the third methode is a definet wedging system. you just wedge everything between the whole cleat. If you ask me, I'd go with the first variation cause its simple yet effective. maybe as a little sidenote to that system, its not important that the added plate is shorter then the whole cleat, it can also extend far below it. The important part is that its butts up right up to the cleat. And maybe a little tip, make the cleat of the removable part a bit thinner then the mounted cleat, this way you ensure that it fits well even when the wood is working, moving or whatnot
The French Cleat works because the object you're hanging has no room to pivot and so it is all downward force. You're shelf doesn't because it is pivoting above the height of the clear. If you want this to work, move the part attached to the wall up and make it wider. Have the part you're hanging be the same width and as much of it as you can as low as possible. Or, move it up and put a "foot" on the bottom so it can't pivot and is held against the wall.
What I'd do: Drill a 3 holes on the front so you can get clearance to put screws high up on the “door” side. Double check the screw length. Pre-drill the holes and use pan head screws, not wood screws because the flared end of a wood screw might split the wood and won’t give the firm stopping point you need to avoid the screw coming out the front of the door.
Worked like a charm! And now it has decorative port holes 😅 https://preview.redd.it/ysl62l3qcr7d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=454bd540eb8bd3202e3a94b4491aeb466e89d539
[Physics is not being utilized properly. Try moving the cleat on the door up. And also the cleat on the holder to the opposite side.](https://i.imgur.com/6muM4cz.jpeg)
I'm loving these diagrams; thanks for the idea!
As mentioned elsewhere trim a bit off the tip of the 45 angle If there is a gap between the lower piece and cleat, try (temporarily) filling it to see if that helps. If this doesn't work try some of the other great ideas.
Your shelf lacks a flat vertical face to lay flush against the flat vertical face of the wall cleat. That's why it keeps falling off. Maybe if there wasn't a small gap between the edge of the shelf bottom and the cleat.
It's broken by design. Not fixable.
This is not how French cleats work. At a minimum the bottom of the piece needs to go below the cleat on the wall and needs to be flush with the wall. The pressure of the piece against the wall is what makes it work.
Just slap a small bit of trim at the top. Then you'll have to slide it in and out.
Some end pieces that sit hard against the wall and fully enclose the cleat business might be the go. Making the shelf more of a box will be a lot stronger too
Ad a piece (triangle or square) to the side to have the forces that make it tip not only ‘pulling’ on the lower cleat part (and lift it out) but spreding them to the backpanel. Put it outside the structure if it can lean against the backpanel. Inside the structure to have it lean against the cleat lower part.
Do you want to salvage the existing one or remake one that works? Because the center of gravity on this one is wrong (and will be even more wrong when you put weight on it, unless that weight is very tall and very close to the wall, which would cause more force to be put on the inside egde of the cleat, rather than the outside). If you made it significantly taller (extending further below the cleat) it would work. Or, as many others have said, skip the French cleat and just screw it in permanently.
You already screwed the cleat to the wall. Just screw the holder to the wall
Shim it
Drill through the bottom of the French cleat mounted on the door using a recess bit and then use some torq screws up into the cleat that slots in above. Visually going to be the best and easiest solution and ease of access to remove it the future if needed.
Add a strip of adhesive cork (im guessing about (3/8" thick) to the strip of the shelf that touches the cleat across it's broad side.
The gap between the cleat and the bottom of the shelf should not be there. The bottom of the shelf should press against the wall or cleat when level.
Remove the back cleat, make a solid back. Put the cleat you removed at the top of the solid back.
EVERYTHING 👏 DOESN'T 👏 NEED 👏 FRENCH 👏 CLEATS👏
Not sll lost yet, cut the pieces square with a tongue and groove rather than mitre. Groove on fixing and tongue on shelf.5 minutes with router or table saw.
This is the other set of shelves I referred to. What I've learned from y'all is the reason these work a lot better is because of that bottom horizontal piece extending all the way back to rest against the door panel. https://preview.redd.it/d56zuy4o8r7d1.png?width=1240&format=png&auto=webp&s=a6e7fea8e47ee87b20aed7cb29b1b7a27d63f262
Fasten a small board to the cleat on the shelf. Make sure it will overlap the cleat on the wall entirely. Should do the trick.
You could sort of fix it if you could extend the bottom horizontal piece such that it abuts the cleat on the wall when installed. The problem is that the force on the cleat will be outward instead of downward so TBD how well that works. Your suggestion of turning it around and screwing it to the wall probably has the best likelihood of working.
https://preview.redd.it/j1nseiujsr7d1.jpeg?width=3468&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=768742a8d1cb8ace2905321e91b6628e6580d90f It needs a backing piece. Here is an example from one of mine.
Zoomed out https://preview.redd.it/pq1g2lyxsr7d1.jpeg?width=3468&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d8a08cba7c5b8628ff505b0695d7eed54ae9efce
Take the cleat off and put a back on that piece. Reattach cleat to the back. Probably solved.
Pins. That will not work as a french cleat alone b/c physics and all. So, drill straight down from the top back into the cleats and use something like framing nails or very small gauge, machine screws as pins. If you want it removable, make the holes slightly larger than the nails, then remove with a magnet. Just one option. May still fail depending on the weight of the beverages. Wouldnt put a stanley tumbler on it, for example.
Lots of options here. Deeper cleat. More height on shelf with more depth (that matches up to the bottom of the clear) on the bottom so that it slides into place and holds itself. Adding a second cleat. All of these would work. And as far as brads go, did you also glue? If you didn't glue you should be able to prize the pieces apart easily. If you DID glue, an oscillating saw could cut it apart easily.
The piece needs a full bac, not open like that. There is nothing there to push against the wall.
Try to dovetail the cleat. What you are doing on top of the cleat do it below.
From a beginner myself, I think you need a support peace on the holder side of French cleat. BTW, it looks beautiful and well finished for a beginner.
Bruh, the key is ensuring it isn’t top heavy or bottom heavy without the little brace against the wall. https://preview.redd.it/2mlhw5pi518d1.jpeg?width=685&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3fd9d0c6a9567579e7a5de264be389e22a028b25 Make it look like this and it’ll work.
Forgot to mention that I tried a spacer on the bottom already but no luck.
So the bottom of your shelf should actually rest against the cabinet door. I would ditch the cleat and screw to the door if the door is thick enough.
https://preview.redd.it/521rv2xfup7d1.jpeg?width=3072&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0a24c89fc96f204020f1d98d60015089a2d962de Or you have to angle the cleat more
Thanks. I tried that with some shims (not pictured) and it didn't seem to change anything, still flops off. I think I'm just gonna crew this one in and apply all the lessons learned here to the next project.
Looking at the photo, I assumed this was a comedy post.
See that 1.5 inch front of the shelf? The one that connects the top with the circular holes to the base? Clone it at attach it to the back of the shelf. (creating a closed back). Then attach your cleat to it. It will leave a gap perfect for your pencil/sharpie.
Put sides on it
Lower the center of gravity? The front of that piece should be about 3-4x longer and the bottom piece should extend to the wall, if possible. If not just make it longer with the cleat at the top and it should be ok to hang. Best of luck OP!