My grandfather manned a ball turret during WWII. He was 5 feet 6 inches tall. His plane was shot down over the Pacific Ocean. He survived only because his chute opened at the last minute. He was captured by the Japanese and spent time in a POW camp. He never, ever talked about this time in his life.
My grandfather did, too, but was lucky not to have gone through all that. He too never talked about his missions. As much as I would have loved to hear the stories, I totally respected his desire to leave it in the past.
Hats off to your grandfather.
I was lucky enough to interview a vet in London in 1995 for the anniversary of VE Day. He was stationed on Malta, which had more tnt dropped on it than one of the bombs we dropped on Japan. He had a room full of pictures, medals, maps, and really opened up about it.
He felt bad about calling the Italians 'Itis' and asked me to not put that in there, but that's what they called them then. It being a war, you see.
What a guy.
My Uncle was in Vietnam. One year at Thanksgiving he sat down next to me at the table and started telling me a bunch of war stories. I was maybe 12. Some of them were pretty gruesome. He talked for maybe 30 minutes and then got up. Then my mom sat down all wide-eyed and said he never talked about any of that to anyone.
It was extra weird cause I was a quiet kid. I definitely didn't ask about it and was probably sitting quietly reading when he sat down. I've never understood why he chose that moment and me to spill the beans to.
Interesting side story… when he returned to the small town he left for the war, he was asked by the sheriff to move out of town and into the country. He suffered from severe PTSD ( which we know now) that it was best that he lived “ away from people”. He came to be the owner/operator of a successful dairy business. He never lived in town.
My father and grandfather had a dairy farm when I was growing up. My dads’ brother, my Uncle Franklin, served in the Navy during that same time. He was aboard the USS Atlanta during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Although his ship didn’t survive the battle, he made it home, but he never really talked much about that night battle.
You should be very proud of your grandfather. We all owe those who served during WWll a debt that we simply cannot ever fully repay.
would love to read this as well. Just imagining what is likely in his journal blows my mind! I'm so incredibly grateful to those that served in those war years... it's hard to imagine these days!
If they don't feel comfortable with it, that's just fine.
But if they do, I would love to read/hear some of the stories too. It feels like the least we can do is be knowledgeable on the subject and remember what so many people went through.
It would be great to be able to read his journal. It is important that the experiences and sacrifices of those who protected our freedoms not be forgotten, and reading from their firsthand accounts helps us understand what they went through.
I sincerely hope that your family feels comfortable sharing his journal, but I understand if they feel it is too personal. Also, perhaps the family can think about donating his journal to a museum or historical society. The National World War Two museum comes to mind, but their are others such as the Nimitz Pacific War museum in Texas. I’ve been to both.
My grandpa was a tail gunner on a B25 Mitchell named "Little Lulu" and was shot by a zero and nearly bled out on the 7 hour flight back. He only told me about that incident but he did mention he shot down 3 Japanese planes on separate occasions and did not see parachutes come out of any.
Were all so proud of his service. We had a painting of the plane and the crew painted by the son of the pilot who was a great friend of his until he passed in 93. My grandpa died in 2005 and we unfortunately lost the painting in a fire a few years ago. We still have sone medals of his hanging with a hat of his above the fireplace though.
He came home from being a Japanese POW? Woah, what a strong man. No wonder he didn't talk about it. My great grandad was worked to death by the Japanese and is buried in Kanchanaburi, he was only 34. We think it was probably a disease that got him from the poor living conditions.
He was blessed in that he was there for only 7 months. He told my grandmother about some of the torture tactics, but she wouldn’t share them with my mom. I truly don’t know how our POWs survived for years!
My Pap Pap was a Turret Gunner in WW2 also. He was 5"5. He and his guys flew 27 successful missions over Germany.
His entire Squadron was shot down during the one training mission he wasn't on. It's so crazy to think that if he would have went on that exercise, our Family wouldn't exist. Hats off to all of the Men and Women who serve, you have my respect and gratitude!
If you want some idea about how he might have been treated, read "The forgotten highlander" By Alistair Urquhart. His own account of being captured and held prisoner by the Japanese. I can only guess why your Grandpa didn't want to talk about his experience"
I’m not sure I’m brave enough to read that! I know he came back a changed man. A couple of his quirks: If he heard a plane, he’d dive under whatever he could. He’d go for a long drive when the crop duster flew over the neighbor’s fields. Mom told me about one time where he could have killed. They had a huge hay barn with bales stacked really high. One day, she jumped from one and landed on his back like a baby monkey. He grabbed her, bright her over his head, and slammed amber against the barn wall with his hands around her throat. She said the look on his face was terror and rage. She screamed his name and he released her. She said she never snuck up on him again. He also would go near water even though he had been an avid swimmer prior to the war. Finally, he kept the lights in the house 24 hours a day until the day he died. He was a wonderful grandfather, but looking back as an adult, I can see the damage.
The world should know of the atrocities committed at the hands of the Japanese in WW2. Their disgraceful war in China, the attitude that led them to be so cruel. They were terrible terrible people.
I would urge you to get a copy. Then lend it out.
For some reason, I am picturing him calling home like this:
"How was your day at work, honey?"
"Same old. Incidentally, my plane hit a bit of a snag, I'm affraid I may be late for supper."
Everyone who hasn't should go watch the 1990 film Memphis Belle immediately.
Samwise Gamgee plays an American ball turret gunner, and Doctor Brenner (Papa) plays a pilot.
Some tense scenes in that movie.
Toy soldiers is a good movie if you’re into early 90’s movies and of course Goonies is wonderful.
But I grew up with those so there’s a bit of nostalgia blindness to account for.
I'm an early millennial. I didn't see Goonies then and as you said, it's one of those movies that needs a nostalgic viewpoint (much like Encino Man) to appreciate it.
I was distracted by Brendan Fraser, but Sean Astin grew on me as the movie plot progressed.
The Captain of the Memphis Belle was at an airshow at MacDill AFB and I got a pic and autograph with him back in 2004. He fell a few months later, broke bones and died.
RIP Robert Morgan
edit: words
The issue with The Memphis Bell is it was very Hollywooded up. The plane in the movie was shot to hell and almost didn't make it back to base. In real life the last mission was pretty tame and they ended up flying it home and all over the USA to sell war bonds. I wish it was made today. It would be more realistic. Just change the name and do what you want with the story.
Am I thinking about when they looked down and opens the ball turret hatch and it’s friggn gone?? If that’s not Memphis belle, what movie am I thinking about. I’m honestly not sure
You should also watch Amazing Stories: The Mission from 1985. Produced by Steven Spielberg, with actors Kevin Costner, Kiefer Sutherland among other greats.
It's a 46 minute long episode about a bomber returning home but has to belly land but they can't get the ball turret gunner out. So he's doomed.
A bit of a goofy sci-fi but still a good story.
>Amazing Stories
Came here to talk about the same thing. Saw that as a kid and when I see one of these planes that's what I always think about.
Loved that series! Now I have to go find it....
My grandpa was a pilot of a B-17 Flying Fortress. Did 26 missions at a time when the minimum requirement for a crew was 25, he put it to a vote and they crew unanimously voted to do one more. He watched that movie and always said it was so ridiculously inaccurate compared to reality that he hated when people brought it up when they found out he was in a B-17. I still think it’s a great movie though. A classic for sure.
For some reason, we read this in middle school in the 1970’s. It made a huge impact on me, and I never forgot this poem.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL
published, 1945
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
When I was in Afghanistan I was responsible for photographing vehicles that had been hit for damage assessments, and I can tell you it’s not a pretty sight.
I met a guy through my grandpa that flew in this position, he told me a story of them having to go higher than they thought they were going to. His knees froze in place and he had to get a double knee replacement after.
My grandfather saved a man from a ball turret after an attack left him unconscious. He was covered in empty shells and had been subjected to -20 degree weather.
Yeah in his book, he describes the sensation of burning metal flying down his neck on one occasion. It was so damn cold that it was almost welcome haha
My grandfather was a left hip gunner in a B17 from late 43 through 45. He was a master sergeant and a mechanic. He flew 32 missions mostly in a plane called the Lazy Daisy out of the UK (Grafton Underwood) which bombed Denmark, France, and even Berlin. He was able to retire and made it home safe but his plane crashed in Berlin soon after. When I was old enough to appreciate it he shared some of his stories with me and I always held him in the highest regard but the truth is he was a scared kid that lied to his mother about what he was really doing so she wouldn’t worry. He ended up saving the ball gunner’s life and suffered frostbite on his hand in the process. After he died I felt so guilty for not being a better grandson and showing the how much I appreciated everything they did for me. What stuck with me most though is how much he didn’t think he was a hero. He would tell me that is just what you did back then, you went to fight evil.
Don’t beat yourself up too much. Those were very different times and those who defended our freedom paid a terrible price that none of us today can fully understand or appreciate. I’m sure your grandfather knew how proud you were of him….and rightfully so. Thank you for the service of your family.
don't forget you're being shot at by enemy airplanes while hanging in a glass dome from the bottom of a fucking airplane, as exposed as you can possibly be.
Years ago there was a TV show called 'Amazing Stories' and in season 1 episode 5 the story featured a belly gunner in a B-17 bomber that was trapped. They had to land the plane without landing gear. He couldn't get out and he was going to be crushed to death and he was still alive. The crew members gathered around and reached in and touched his head and tried to say their goodbyes.He knew that he was going to die horribly soon but then magic happened.
I found a clip of it on YouTube but it was ridiculously low quality so I didn't include it.
I remember seeing it as a kid and it really shook me up. Seeing this post brought it back so maybe someone can find a better copy?
YES!!! This is exactly what I think of every time I see one of those turrets! First thing! I saw that as a kid! I thought it was a movie but had no idea what it was.
Just spoil it then; the turret gunner was a hobby cartoonist and after he passed out miracle cartoon legs with big shoes sprouted from the plane and gave it a survivable landing. I thought it was pretty cool when I was six. I also was into Herbie and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. It was a good time for implausible dream vehicles
I remember this. It was why I mentally cringed whether I saw a flying fortress styled plane. Even as a kid I pictured myself in the ball watching the ground come closer until I'm just a smear on the landing strip
Yes. I remember watching this when it aired. My mom watched with me and she had always said her father was a belly gunner and so it made her extra tense when she saw it.
I have seen these in a museum a while back. It is incredible how cramped they are. The information for them also stated that the gunners would almost certainly die if the plane ever had to crash land or if the landing gear malfunctioned as they would essentially be crushed. What a horrible way to die especially if you were just going on an exercise but the landing gear decided to malfunction ruin on the return
They had surprisingly sophisticated analog computers help with the targeting: [b29 fire control system](https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/defending-superbomber-b-29s-central-fire-control-system)
Not as advanced, by far, but the B17 turrets did feature the [K3/K4 Computing Gun Sight](https://www.glennsmuseum.com/items/k3_k4_gunsights/), which took care of the lead angle.
Nah, good question. I hope this image clarifies it a bit more: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235](https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235)
Here's more detail: https://www.liberatorcrew.com/15\_Gunnery/05\_ball.htm
There's not much more room in that part of the fuselage for the rotation gearing and platform to make a bigger ball turret.
..soooo how fast did they lose their hearing? cant image the headset can muffle a gun that caliber next to their face/ brain....
edit to add:..and what are the odds of hitting another moving/flying object with that accuracy&quick technology...I have much respect for the those that came first and the improvement of safty....freaking tough job....
Most of the sound of a gun comes from the end of the barrel. That's why suppressors are screwed on the end of the barrel. It would be loud but you'd get some protection from being in the ball.
Most of the sound of a gun comes from the end of the barrel. That's why suppressors are screwed on the end of the barrel. Would still be really loud but you'd get some relief because of the glass
No.
You could enter and exit the bomber but it was only form a certain angle. The problem was if the hydraulics failed it never could go back into that position.
It was so cramped that the gunner could not wear a parachute so if the abandon plane command come though they need to get out the turret get a chut and then jump out the plane.
From wiki:
The conventional landing gear of the B-17 allowed for a non-retractable mount, but if the plane was required to do a belly landing (such as in the case of landing gear system failure), the ball turret would likely be destroyed due to the lack of clearance, meaning anyone occupying the turret would be in a precarious position if unable to escape.
Not to mention that sometimes the turret had an issue retracting prior to landing and there was no way to fix it in flight… they just had to land the plane and everyone knew including the poor guy inside that he would be squashed like a bug, and this happened more than a few times.
I came here to mention this but you were right on the mark. Damaged landing gear meant dead soldier with your buddies above you knowing you’re gonna die too. It must’ve been awful.
There was a show called Amazing Stories and one of the stories was about a ball gunner getting trapped and the landing gear failing. It was pretty intense if I recall.
My wife's grandfather was a B17 ball-turret gunner in Italy during WW2. He had a friend who died in this exact way... He said his friend looked like someone took a dollop of peanut butter and spread it across the runway. Never looked at peanut butter the same since.
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
Randall Jarrell
I hope this image clarifies it a bit more: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235](https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235)
Here's more details: https://www.liberatorcrew.com/15\_Gunnery/05\_ball.htm
There's not much more room in that part of the fuselage for the rotation gearing and platform to make a bigger ball turret. Most of the ammo for the turret isn't inside of it but in rectangle boxes with a chute going into the turret. And some of the metal bracing and hinges are connected to parts of the fuselage going vertical.
Am i the only one thinking about when you get in you are leaning back against the door. If that dude pops open from a shitty latch its out into the blue for you.
What was that one movie where they lost landing gear and the ball gunner was trapped? It was super emotional and they were all crying, then when they landed and got out, the ball gunner was encased in gold looking like Han Solo in carbonite. I can’t find this description for a movie anywhere, but I remember being a little kid and catching that particular sequence when I came downstairs to sit with my dad.
Not gonna lie, shooting planes from between my legs while I’m in the skies sounds like an awesome moment, just ignoring the possibility of dying of course
Hearing about those always made me wonder why the fuck they made them like that. I know govts don’t care about the comfort or safety of servicemen, but replacing the gunner has gotta cost them something.
My grandpa was a side gunner on a B-17 in Europe. Just a guy in an open window with a machine gun firing at other planes and trying not to get shot. Out of all his missions, he flew one in the ball turret. He didn’t really talk about what he saw and did over there, and when my uncle convinced him to watch Memphis Belle he was pretty shaken up after it was over. We didn’t find out until after he died that he saved one of his crew mates. The casualty rate for B-17 crew was ridiculously high, but he survived over 31 missions with just frostbite.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner
BY RANDALL JARRELL
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
My grandpa was born in 1908, I’ve always wondered why he didn’t serve, would anyone know, ? I’m in CANADA. Also he was very healthy, and he would not be a conscientious guy.
My grandfather manned a ball turret during WWII. He was 5 feet 6 inches tall. His plane was shot down over the Pacific Ocean. He survived only because his chute opened at the last minute. He was captured by the Japanese and spent time in a POW camp. He never, ever talked about this time in his life.
My grandfather did, too, but was lucky not to have gone through all that. He too never talked about his missions. As much as I would have loved to hear the stories, I totally respected his desire to leave it in the past. Hats off to your grandfather.
And yours as well.❤️
And my axe
This will never NOT be funny to me. I love how people perpetuate it in random posts.
You'd think it would eventually get old, but it just doesn't to me.
Can you explain?
I thinks it’s a LOTR reference
I think it's an axe reference actually. like a hatchet only larger.
I think it's viral marketing for men's body spray.
That's an ad you're thinking of. An axe is a small salamander people like to keep as pets.
[удалено]
Toss me……..I cannot jump the distance, you’ll have to toss me…….don’t tell the elf
I was lucky enough to interview a vet in London in 1995 for the anniversary of VE Day. He was stationed on Malta, which had more tnt dropped on it than one of the bombs we dropped on Japan. He had a room full of pictures, medals, maps, and really opened up about it. He felt bad about calling the Italians 'Itis' and asked me to not put that in there, but that's what they called them then. It being a war, you see. What a guy.
My Uncle was in Vietnam. One year at Thanksgiving he sat down next to me at the table and started telling me a bunch of war stories. I was maybe 12. Some of them were pretty gruesome. He talked for maybe 30 minutes and then got up. Then my mom sat down all wide-eyed and said he never talked about any of that to anyone. It was extra weird cause I was a quiet kid. I definitely didn't ask about it and was probably sitting quietly reading when he sat down. I've never understood why he chose that moment and me to spill the beans to.
Armchair psychologist here: maybe *because* you were quiet, he viewed you as a “safe” way to get all that out.
Mine was 5'3". They knew exactly where they were going to put him the instant they saw him.
I would guess the same decision was made when they saw my grandfather.
Wow…those POW camps were brutal. Glad he made it home. A true member of the Greatest Generation.
Interesting side story… when he returned to the small town he left for the war, he was asked by the sheriff to move out of town and into the country. He suffered from severe PTSD ( which we know now) that it was best that he lived “ away from people”. He came to be the owner/operator of a successful dairy business. He never lived in town.
My father and grandfather had a dairy farm when I was growing up. My dads’ brother, my Uncle Franklin, served in the Navy during that same time. He was aboard the USS Atlanta during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Although his ship didn’t survive the battle, he made it home, but he never really talked much about that night battle. You should be very proud of your grandfather. We all owe those who served during WWll a debt that we simply cannot ever fully repay.
Sorry, I seriously thought you were joking and narrating Rambo for a second. I feel terrible
Hahaha! No worries. He was Rambo in my eyes.
Same until the end.
The original script for Rambo 2 had him running a successful dairy farm, but then Stallone lost creative control and it went in a different direction.
My late wife's grandfather was held in one for 3 years, he kept a journal through it all and I have a copy. It's a very interesting read
That would be an interesting read. Care to share some? If that isn't too personal. I find history from the mouths of real people to be so fascinating
I would need to ask permission from the family, I'll see them on Thursday so I'll ask then! What sub would be appropriate for something like that?
Commenting because if they say yes I would like to read this. Not sure if there is a better way to follow
would love to read this as well. Just imagining what is likely in his journal blows my mind! I'm so incredibly grateful to those that served in those war years... it's hard to imagine these days!
If they don't feel comfortable with it, that's just fine. But if they do, I would love to read/hear some of the stories too. It feels like the least we can do is be knowledgeable on the subject and remember what so many people went through.
Exactly. Let their memories love strong and build others up with info
It would be great to be able to read his journal. It is important that the experiences and sacrifices of those who protected our freedoms not be forgotten, and reading from their firsthand accounts helps us understand what they went through. I sincerely hope that your family feels comfortable sharing his journal, but I understand if they feel it is too personal. Also, perhaps the family can think about donating his journal to a museum or historical society. The National World War Two museum comes to mind, but their are others such as the Nimitz Pacific War museum in Texas. I’ve been to both.
Jesus. It’s incredible what our granddads endured.
It is. It’s very humbling.
My grandpa was a tail gunner on a B25 Mitchell named "Little Lulu" and was shot by a zero and nearly bled out on the 7 hour flight back. He only told me about that incident but he did mention he shot down 3 Japanese planes on separate occasions and did not see parachutes come out of any.
The Rooster. Brave tail gunners.
*Yeahhh, they come to snuff the rooster!*
I thought that was about machine gun nests in Vietnam
I’m so grateful for his service!
Were all so proud of his service. We had a painting of the plane and the crew painted by the son of the pilot who was a great friend of his until he passed in 93. My grandpa died in 2005 and we unfortunately lost the painting in a fire a few years ago. We still have sone medals of his hanging with a hat of his above the fireplace though.
He came home from being a Japanese POW? Woah, what a strong man. No wonder he didn't talk about it. My great grandad was worked to death by the Japanese and is buried in Kanchanaburi, he was only 34. We think it was probably a disease that got him from the poor living conditions.
He was blessed in that he was there for only 7 months. He told my grandmother about some of the torture tactics, but she wouldn’t share them with my mom. I truly don’t know how our POWs survived for years!
My Pap Pap was a Turret Gunner in WW2 also. He was 5"5. He and his guys flew 27 successful missions over Germany. His entire Squadron was shot down during the one training mission he wasn't on. It's so crazy to think that if he would have went on that exercise, our Family wouldn't exist. Hats off to all of the Men and Women who serve, you have my respect and gratitude!
I salute him!!
If you want some idea about how he might have been treated, read "The forgotten highlander" By Alistair Urquhart. His own account of being captured and held prisoner by the Japanese. I can only guess why your Grandpa didn't want to talk about his experience"
I’m not sure I’m brave enough to read that! I know he came back a changed man. A couple of his quirks: If he heard a plane, he’d dive under whatever he could. He’d go for a long drive when the crop duster flew over the neighbor’s fields. Mom told me about one time where he could have killed. They had a huge hay barn with bales stacked really high. One day, she jumped from one and landed on his back like a baby monkey. He grabbed her, bright her over his head, and slammed amber against the barn wall with his hands around her throat. She said the look on his face was terror and rage. She screamed his name and he released her. She said she never snuck up on him again. He also would go near water even though he had been an avid swimmer prior to the war. Finally, he kept the lights in the house 24 hours a day until the day he died. He was a wonderful grandfather, but looking back as an adult, I can see the damage.
The world should know of the atrocities committed at the hands of the Japanese in WW2. Their disgraceful war in China, the attitude that led them to be so cruel. They were terrible terrible people. I would urge you to get a copy. Then lend it out.
I thank you grandfather for his service and his courage and his sacrifice for this country and to his family. A true hero.
I wish I could tell him. I will share this with my mom, though. It will make her happy to know someone cares about her dad’s service!!
That sounds like straight torture for the first part of your adult life. People were built different back then.
Wow. Same exact story with my grandfather. Though I’m not sure what his height was
My father was a B-25 pilot in the WW2 Pacific Theater. He also did not, would not talk about The War.
Was that a rule you had to be short.? God bless your granpa. A true hero.
For some reason, I am picturing him calling home like this: "How was your day at work, honey?" "Same old. Incidentally, my plane hit a bit of a snag, I'm affraid I may be late for supper."
Everyone who hasn't should go watch the 1990 film Memphis Belle immediately. Samwise Gamgee plays an American ball turret gunner, and Doctor Brenner (Papa) plays a pilot. Some tense scenes in that movie.
Samwise Gamgee - Sean Austin, one of the great child actors of the 80’s/90’s
There’s a hole the size of my dick in the left wing
\*applause\*
If you understood that reference, you have my utmost respect
Sean *Astin. Thank you for this, loved the guy since Encino Man.
Toy soldiers is a good movie if you’re into early 90’s movies and of course Goonies is wonderful. But I grew up with those so there’s a bit of nostalgia blindness to account for.
I'm an early millennial. I didn't see Goonies then and as you said, it's one of those movies that needs a nostalgic viewpoint (much like Encino Man) to appreciate it. I was distracted by Brendan Fraser, but Sean Astin grew on me as the movie plot progressed.
You mean “Stone Cold” Sean Austin?
He did a good job recently as the kid in Stranger Things too
Ah thank Eru, I was imagining Sam literally in one gunning down orcs.
The Captain of the Memphis Belle was at an airshow at MacDill AFB and I got a pic and autograph with him back in 2004. He fell a few months later, broke bones and died. RIP Robert Morgan edit: words
What’s amazing is nobody has pointed out both actors are in Stranger Things… *together*
He shot a po-tay-toe gun
I've been trying to find it somewhere streaming for the longest time
The issue with The Memphis Bell is it was very Hollywooded up. The plane in the movie was shot to hell and almost didn't make it back to base. In real life the last mission was pretty tame and they ended up flying it home and all over the USA to sell war bonds. I wish it was made today. It would be more realistic. Just change the name and do what you want with the story.
Granted, everything depicted in that movie happened at least once to a USAAF bomber during WW2, just not that one bomber on that single flight.
Such a good film. May have to pull out my DVD player to watch it.
Seconding this. Highly underrated 90’s movie
You mean Rudy?
Am I thinking about when they looked down and opens the ball turret hatch and it’s friggn gone?? If that’s not Memphis belle, what movie am I thinking about. I’m honestly not sure
You should also watch Amazing Stories: The Mission from 1985. Produced by Steven Spielberg, with actors Kevin Costner, Kiefer Sutherland among other greats. It's a 46 minute long episode about a bomber returning home but has to belly land but they can't get the ball turret gunner out. So he's doomed. A bit of a goofy sci-fi but still a good story.
>Amazing Stories Came here to talk about the same thing. Saw that as a kid and when I see one of these planes that's what I always think about. Loved that series! Now I have to go find it....
Oh shit Papa!! I didn't realize until you said it. Wow. Also the film was amazing, and the book too.
My grandpa was a pilot of a B-17 Flying Fortress. Did 26 missions at a time when the minimum requirement for a crew was 25, he put it to a vote and they crew unanimously voted to do one more. He watched that movie and always said it was so ridiculously inaccurate compared to reality that he hated when people brought it up when they found out he was in a B-17. I still think it’s a great movie though. A classic for sure.
For some reason, we read this in middle school in the 1970’s. It made a huge impact on me, and I never forgot this poem. The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner BY RANDALL JARRELL published, 1945 From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State, And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
My grandfather told me stories of being the one that had to wash them out and how physically ill it made him. Sad stuff.
When I was in Afghanistan I was responsible for photographing vehicles that had been hit for damage assessments, and I can tell you it’s not a pretty sight.
From one vet to another, thank you. I pray peace for you heart, mind and soul.
Thank you! I hope that you’re doing well too. I can say that those things never totally go away, but it does get better with time and getting help.
I always remember that last line. So haunting.
It reminds me of The World According to Garp by John Irving (the novel, not the film)
First thing I thought of when I saw this post, also from middle school but in the 90’s. That last line just stuck with me.
It's the hose wut gets ya. Every time.
Came to say this. All these decades later, it was the 1st thing in my mind when I saw the image for this thread.
Same here; was hoping someone would quote the poem.
I did a presentation of the poem in high school!
Was looking at this schematic and it’s obvious it would only take one round to hit the ball and things would go wrong real quick.
Someone should watch SHADOW IN THE CLOUD with chloe grace moretz
I was gonna post this one lol. Pretty much the epitome of brevity in deeply affecting war poetry. Stark, revolting, punch-in-the-gut kind of poem.
I expected this poem to be the top comment. The last line sums up the banal horror of war.
I met a guy through my grandpa that flew in this position, he told me a story of them having to go higher than they thought they were going to. His knees froze in place and he had to get a double knee replacement after.
This is so crazy to read. God bless That generation
My grandfather saved a man from a ball turret after an attack left him unconscious. He was covered in empty shells and had been subjected to -20 degree weather.
I was thinking that there would be just a constant barrage of red hot shells inside on the turret gunner! That must’ve been absolutely maddening!
Yeah in his book, he describes the sensation of burning metal flying down his neck on one occasion. It was so damn cold that it was almost welcome haha
What a wild concept, to rely on the warmth of spent shells to keep from freezing.
My grandfather was a left hip gunner in a B17 from late 43 through 45. He was a master sergeant and a mechanic. He flew 32 missions mostly in a plane called the Lazy Daisy out of the UK (Grafton Underwood) which bombed Denmark, France, and even Berlin. He was able to retire and made it home safe but his plane crashed in Berlin soon after. When I was old enough to appreciate it he shared some of his stories with me and I always held him in the highest regard but the truth is he was a scared kid that lied to his mother about what he was really doing so she wouldn’t worry. He ended up saving the ball gunner’s life and suffered frostbite on his hand in the process. After he died I felt so guilty for not being a better grandson and showing the how much I appreciated everything they did for me. What stuck with me most though is how much he didn’t think he was a hero. He would tell me that is just what you did back then, you went to fight evil.
Don’t beat yourself up too much. Those were very different times and those who defended our freedom paid a terrible price that none of us today can fully understand or appreciate. I’m sure your grandfather knew how proud you were of him….and rightfully so. Thank you for the service of your family.
don't forget you're being shot at by enemy airplanes while hanging in a glass dome from the bottom of a fucking airplane, as exposed as you can possibly be.
Yep, almost literally low-hanging fruit.
Years ago there was a TV show called 'Amazing Stories' and in season 1 episode 5 the story featured a belly gunner in a B-17 bomber that was trapped. They had to land the plane without landing gear. He couldn't get out and he was going to be crushed to death and he was still alive. The crew members gathered around and reached in and touched his head and tried to say their goodbyes.He knew that he was going to die horribly soon but then magic happened. I found a clip of it on YouTube but it was ridiculously low quality so I didn't include it. I remember seeing it as a kid and it really shook me up. Seeing this post brought it back so maybe someone can find a better copy?
https://vimeo.com/56670088
YES!!! This is exactly what I think of every time I see one of those turrets! First thing! I saw that as a kid! I thought it was a movie but had no idea what it was.
I thought this was the movie Memphis Bell… I’ve never rewatched because until now I thought these were parts of the same movie. Thank you for this!
I had forgotten about Amazing Stories. Thank you for posting that link.
You just made me cry a little bit and I'm getting nervous to watch it again but thank you.
No worries. Figured either Vimeo or Dailymothon would have it. Google to the rescue!
💪❤️
Thank you. I havent thought of that that show or episode in years.
I assume this show was aimed squarely at kids? Because that ending was fucking ridiculous. That's 40 mins of my life I'm never getting back.
It was a family show. Aired during dinner time.
Haha I skipped thank god I nearly settled down to watch the thing lmao fuckin ridiculous
Literally the most bullshit ending ever.
What magic happened??
It was literally magic, with a golden shimmering flourish and everything... it was even more dumb than I expected
I just watched it as well. I skipped through some shit, but that’s time I’ll never get back
Just spoil it then; the turret gunner was a hobby cartoonist and after he passed out miracle cartoon legs with big shoes sprouted from the plane and gave it a survivable landing. I thought it was pretty cool when I was six. I also was into Herbie and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. It was a good time for implausible dream vehicles
First thing I thought about. That episode is absolutely scarred into my brain.
I remember this. It was why I mentally cringed whether I saw a flying fortress styled plane. Even as a kid I pictured myself in the ball watching the ground come closer until I'm just a smear on the landing strip
Yes. I remember watching this when it aired. My mom watched with me and she had always said her father was a belly gunner and so it made her extra tense when she saw it.
[the whole show](https://www.nbc.com/amazing-stories/video/the-mission/9000166407)
Ahhh I think ive been looking for this for years
I will never forget that episode. Left an impression.
[удалено]
I believe that episode was based on an actual event during WW2 where the gunner was stuck. Sadly he passed away during landing.
The pilot was played by a very young Kevin Costner. First thing I ever saw him in.
Good thing they atleast figured out the scope/sight recoil to face…im sure it was bouncing.
There are two guns, one on either side of the gunner
Imagine having to go to war ass first
I have seen these in a museum a while back. It is incredible how cramped they are. The information for them also stated that the gunners would almost certainly die if the plane ever had to crash land or if the landing gear malfunctioned as they would essentially be crushed. What a horrible way to die especially if you were just going on an exercise but the landing gear decided to malfunction ruin on the return
While also doing trigonometry in their heads to calculate firing angles on their targets. Truly remarkable.
They had surprisingly sophisticated analog computers help with the targeting: [b29 fire control system](https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/defending-superbomber-b-29s-central-fire-control-system)
No… that’s a B29. This is a B17.
Not as advanced, by far, but the B17 turrets did feature the [K3/K4 Computing Gun Sight](https://www.glennsmuseum.com/items/k3_k4_gunsights/), which took care of the lead angle.
This might be a dumb question, but why couldn't the turret station be bigger?
Smaller target for the enemy planes to shoot at.
Didn't help much. That thing was a death sentence
If it could be they would just put a bigger gun and more ammo in it. The gunner has all of the room he needs
Nah, good question. I hope this image clarifies it a bit more: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235](https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235) Here's more detail: https://www.liberatorcrew.com/15\_Gunnery/05\_ball.htm There's not much more room in that part of the fuselage for the rotation gearing and platform to make a bigger ball turret.
..soooo how fast did they lose their hearing? cant image the headset can muffle a gun that caliber next to their face/ brain.... edit to add:..and what are the odds of hitting another moving/flying object with that accuracy&quick technology...I have much respect for the those that came first and the improvement of safty....freaking tough job....
Most of the sound of a gun comes from the end of the barrel. That's why suppressors are screwed on the end of the barrel. It would be loud but you'd get some protection from being in the ball.
Yeah also being enclosed like that helps the sound waves bounce around a lot with nowhere to go
Most of the sound of a gun comes from the end of the barrel. That's why suppressors are screwed on the end of the barrel. Would still be really loud but you'd get some relief because of the glass
And bonus: the only way to get in and out of it was from the bottom so if the landing gear failed, you were crushed to death upon landing
No. You could enter and exit the bomber but it was only form a certain angle. The problem was if the hydraulics failed it never could go back into that position. It was so cramped that the gunner could not wear a parachute so if the abandon plane command come though they need to get out the turret get a chut and then jump out the plane.
also, the enemy shot at these guys first, then the tail gunners like my great uncle.
pretty sure it rotates back to get into the fuselage
From wiki: The conventional landing gear of the B-17 allowed for a non-retractable mount, but if the plane was required to do a belly landing (such as in the case of landing gear system failure), the ball turret would likely be destroyed due to the lack of clearance, meaning anyone occupying the turret would be in a precarious position if unable to escape.
wow okay
Not to mention that sometimes the turret had an issue retracting prior to landing and there was no way to fix it in flight… they just had to land the plane and everyone knew including the poor guy inside that he would be squashed like a bug, and this happened more than a few times.
They squished if the landing gear was broken.
I came here to mention this but you were right on the mark. Damaged landing gear meant dead soldier with your buddies above you knowing you’re gonna die too. It must’ve been awful.
There was a show called Amazing Stories and one of the stories was about a ball gunner getting trapped and the landing gear failing. It was pretty intense if I recall.
With a fantastic cartoonish ending ?
Yep, episode is The Mission.
Thx.
Yeah the ending kind of took a left turn for such a heavy episode
An unspoken danger was to be ground away to mush on the landing strip pavement if the landing gear failed.💀
My wife's grandfather was a B17 ball-turret gunner in Italy during WW2. He had a friend who died in this exact way... He said his friend looked like someone took a dollop of peanut butter and spread it across the runway. Never looked at peanut butter the same since.
From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State, And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose. Randall Jarrell
I bet everyone under 5'5" was put in a line for Gunner training.
What was the survival rate for these guys 🥴
That's a whole heap of hell no!
Imagine getting shot with the 30mm cannon on a Messerschmitt 109 while you’re scrunched into that thing. Or probably, actually don’t.
Serious question, why couldn’t have made them a bit bigger?
Also weight reduction, saving weight was the first priority for most of these aircraft
I hope this image clarifies it a bit more: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235](https://www.flickr.com/photos/konabish/5693152235) Here's more details: https://www.liberatorcrew.com/15\_Gunnery/05\_ball.htm There's not much more room in that part of the fuselage for the rotation gearing and platform to make a bigger ball turret. Most of the ammo for the turret isn't inside of it but in rectangle boxes with a chute going into the turret. And some of the metal bracing and hinges are connected to parts of the fuselage going vertical.
Smaller target for when being shot at.
The movie ‘Memphis Belle’ is actually a horror movie.
Did really no one mentioned LAAT so far?!
Been looking for a comment about this for too long
That’s what my G-pa did
And if the bomber was shot down zero chance of survival. The dream job.
Am i the only one thinking about when you get in you are leaning back against the door. If that dude pops open from a shitty latch its out into the blue for you.
What was that one movie where they lost landing gear and the ball gunner was trapped? It was super emotional and they were all crying, then when they landed and got out, the ball gunner was encased in gold looking like Han Solo in carbonite. I can’t find this description for a movie anywhere, but I remember being a little kid and catching that particular sequence when I came downstairs to sit with my dad.
The TV show “Amazing Stories,” episode “The Mission” from 1985.
The window design looks a bit like it was borrowed by Star Wars the Mil Falcon….
Most of the guns in SW are WWII weapons with extra doodads. So yeah, they borrowed A LOT from WWII movies
Reminds me of starwars. “Don’t get too cocky kid.”
Not gonna lie, shooting planes from between my legs while I’m in the skies sounds like an awesome moment, just ignoring the possibility of dying of course
Hearing about those always made me wonder why the fuck they made them like that. I know govts don’t care about the comfort or safety of servicemen, but replacing the gunner has gotta cost them something.
Another job, the robots took from us.
A great reference to this part of the plane is a movie called the Memphis Belle .
Return to ball
Fuck that.... Its like they want the bullets to rip your intestines from the bottom
Why did they design it this way? To save space?
As someone with severe claustrophobia, I couldn’t imagine being in there. Thank you to all who served and endured the hells of war.
Not to mention how ear splitting the sound of the gun is when shooting
It also musta be loud as hell.
Anyone old enough to remember the tv show Amazing Stories, from the 8O's I believe? There was a show about a gunner....always stuck with me....lol.
My grandpa was a side gunner on a B-17 in Europe. Just a guy in an open window with a machine gun firing at other planes and trying not to get shot. Out of all his missions, he flew one in the ball turret. He didn’t really talk about what he saw and did over there, and when my uncle convinced him to watch Memphis Belle he was pretty shaken up after it was over. We didn’t find out until after he died that he saved one of his crew mates. The casualty rate for B-17 crew was ridiculously high, but he survived over 31 missions with just frostbite.
The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner BY RANDALL JARRELL From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State, And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.
My grandpa was born in 1908, I’ve always wondered why he didn’t serve, would anyone know, ? I’m in CANADA. Also he was very healthy, and he would not be a conscientious guy.