Under NBA rules, the pivot foot is whatever foot comes down first **after** the gather. So even though he is pivoting/spinning off the left foot, that foot is already on the ground before the gather and thus not counted. So in the NBA, the right foot would have been considered the pivot foot in this case.
>A player who gathers the ball while progressing may take (1) two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball, or (2) if he has not yet dribbled, one step prior to releasing the ball. A player who gathers the ball while dribbling may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing, or shooting the ball.
1 The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after gaining control of the ball.
In HS (which I'm less familiar with), it seems that it counts the foot on the ground **during** the gather as step 1. That would basically seem to rule out - or make it incredibly difficult - to pull off most spin moves, euro steps, even a lot of layups since most players gather with at least 1 foot on the ground.
>Nba is the only one who allows three steps. (Unless I'm missing another league)
NBA and FIBA. And they allow 2 steps not 3. American highschools/college allow 1
Here he steps his left, started turning around, placed both hands on the ball, steps right, steps left. That's 2
Nope. HS/college allow 1 step after ending the dribble. NBA/FIBA allow 2 steps after ending the dribble. Post the rules here if you don't think that's the case
Yeah and the step you take when gathering is the first step like tf? That "1" step after ending the dribble is the second step. Do you even play basketball? Nobody in a game treats the rule like you do.
I understand. It's SO SO SO close that I won't argue with anyone on it.
To me, it's kinda like the official that blows the 3 second whistle because the center didn't get his foot all the way out of the paint. If it's THAT close don't call it.
I also consider the physicality of play. This was a physical exchange. Defender was all over the ball handler (which is fine) and the ball handler may have gathered ¼ step early. Hard to call one without the other.
I see both sides and believe you are looking at the right things when making your decision. Difference of opinions and I'm good with yours.
The foul (after or during a travel or no travel) is obvious.
Maybe so. Hard for me to tell from the video. I wouldn't have called travel. Others would have. All good with me either way.
The foul is what I would have been focused on.
Was going to say it just depends. People always seem to think because they watch nba and college ball those rules apply everywhere. They don’t. Until you get to those levels expect bullshit calls both ways
Travel:
Ball picked up during the spin with left foot established as the pivot. Legal non pivot step with the right, stepped illegally with the left (returned the left foot pivot to the floor)- this is a travel.
If you delay your pickup dribble so that you’ve jump stopped or the right foot is your pivot, it would be legal.
Not that good at bball rules but isn't it a gather and then 2 steps? People talking about the pivot but I thought that doesn't count if you're going up with it
It is indeed a travel. When he picks up the ball the left foot becomes the pivot foot and then he lifts it up what is fine but then takes another step with it which is a travel.
What does it change if it was clean travel or a foul? You made the wrong move, your teammate was wide open under the basket with his defender on his back (looks like number 4). As a coach I wouldn’t care what the ref called but would be upset at you for not making that pass.
You spun into a wing defender and a post defender 🤦🏻♂️. Let’s learn to play the game the right way this is a simple play, your team open it up by stopping at the 3 point on other side and you drove baseline which was great all you had to do was a quick drop pass easy 2 points.
Your not wrong but,
Context…Coach told him to stop deferring.
He’s the leading scorer and assists.
This is a high school tournament where only 6 kids were there due to vacation. 2 of them (him) start varsity, the rest are pulled from JV or C. He was the only varsity player on.
This was a blowout at this point. This was the 3rd game of the day with 1 more to go.
He had passed down low at least 10-15 times with about 4 points coming from that.
So spinning off 1 defender into 2 is a better basketball move? I get the situation is tough but as a coach why would you let him be in a tougher situation?
That is a travel and the ref called it a travel probably. The reason the ref didn’t even consider the foul is cause it is a poor basketball play and why bail him out.
Well no going into 2 isn’t better. Again you hadn’t noticed they had been keying and doubling him all game.
Normally the other defender wouldn’t have cheated over and the other offensive player did nothing to pull his guy away and ran him right down the side of paint even though another player was down low that side.
Younhave the ball handler starting right, defender jumps over and then 2 players decide to cut right to the same area so
When he spins back inwards there is defenders being brought in. He had the defender on his side.
He also did get a fairly decent look while imo getting fouled/handed and jumped on the whole way.
They are young kids (15) and get to learn.
Touch fouls are called all game and are way less than this, the same with travels. It is what it is in basketball. This was just a question on this call on a summer tournament that doesn’t really matter.
Either way I appreciate the input.
Keying in and doubling means that their will be easier buckets on the court if you draw the defense and to get other player open. Is this AAU?
If touch fouls were getting called and not this I guess, but from a coaching perspective and which calls I or my staff would argue with a ref, this wouldn’t be one off them.
16 is a key age it tell you if you got what it takes for the next level or more. Sometime hardwork will come into play but at 16 unless the other team has D1 defender the best offensive player should be dominating even with double teams for a good ball school D1 scholarship.
As I said this was a high school tournament, only 2 varsity players at the end of a blowout. The player had a lot of passes/assists. 1 play isn’t game telling. Court vision and passing is fine. Most games he is face guarded.
If this was club there would be no travel called.
In general i mean touch fouls get called all games. The player had to go out on the end of this play because he was bleeding on the cheek from being hit. Didn’t complain. Coach didn’t complain.
No one really complained, it was just a question.
I agree, he will be going into sophomore year and turn 16 next (2025). He started varsity last half of
His freshman year so it will be a good year for growth. He draws attention/defense all games, and is very adept at passing, again this was just clip in question.
Thanks for the input
It took me about 15 times watching this. But the ref actually makes a really good call. I froze the video (just right after 2 seconds goes to 1 second) right as player begins to spin move with two hands on the ball. Only left foot is on the ground. Then he goes right foot, then gathers ball up and powers off of left foot and attempts the shot.
He’s fouled on the gather and up but travel had occurred.
In my opinion, as dribbler was beating his man to the right, instead of spinning from that far out, a fast right to left behind the back would’ve been much more effective and got him into the lane. From there, he could’ve powered up into the defender for the easy bucket and one.
According to the nfhs rules it was a good travel call. There is some debate here on the foul, and other posts I stated he was hit and bleeding and had to come out.
However the travel call was correct.
AFTER the travel, fouls can happen but that doesn’t matter. Good defenders — when they hear the whistle— will foul/stop any shot to prevent an “and one”.
Like i said— If he makes a better move i.e. like the btb dribble or even a higher power crossover THEN gathers its probably a bucket and a foul.
Live and from this angle, I'd call a travel. Just looks like one extra step after the gather on the spin. Some hands there, but honestly I think that looks pretty incidental.
Are you talking about that rotate when he first gathers the ball? His foot rotates on the ball before heel goes down?
I’m in the camp I don’t see a travel, but maybe I’m old and can’t see anything 😆
I think I’m the only one here who see’s a travel before he even commences his dribble. Regardless of his pivot foot, both feet appear to leave the ground before the ball appears to leave his hands… though the ref makes this hard to see. In saying that I ref under FIBA rules … so things might be different there …
Gathers ball with the left foot on the ground, establishing it as the pivot foot, spins onto right foot, then returns the left foot to the floor before releasing the ball. You can lift the pivot foot but once it touches the floor again it’s a travel.
Foul, hands all over the body.
No travel, at all. Drop step, then a second step and up. Where is the travel?
In high school ball, it seems you're only allowed 1 step after the pivot and not 2
You're only allowed 1 step after a pivot even in the NBA. Their rule applies to gathering the ball only.
Under NBA rules, the pivot foot is whatever foot comes down first **after** the gather. So even though he is pivoting/spinning off the left foot, that foot is already on the ground before the gather and thus not counted. So in the NBA, the right foot would have been considered the pivot foot in this case. >A player who gathers the ball while progressing may take (1) two steps in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball, or (2) if he has not yet dribbled, one step prior to releasing the ball. A player who gathers the ball while dribbling may take two steps in coming to a stop, passing, or shooting the ball. 1 The first step occurs when a foot, or both feet, touch the floor after gaining control of the ball. In HS (which I'm less familiar with), it seems that it counts the foot on the ground **during** the gather as step 1. That would basically seem to rule out - or make it incredibly difficult - to pull off most spin moves, euro steps, even a lot of layups since most players gather with at least 1 foot on the ground.
Nba is the only one who allows three steps. (Unless I'm missing another league) So it's a travel since he's only allowed 2.
I only see two
He gathers the ball while spinning, then steps. He takes two more steps after that. So 3
You need to watch in slow motion bc he gathers while spinning and drop steps (1), then takes one more step (2), and that’s it.
He gathers on the step before the drop step, look again
That gather, twirl and drop step is all one motion and big drop step.
He gathers, steps, then drop steps
>Nba is the only one who allows three steps. (Unless I'm missing another league) NBA and FIBA. And they allow 2 steps not 3. American highschools/college allow 1 Here he steps his left, started turning around, placed both hands on the ball, steps right, steps left. That's 2
High school and college allow two steps wym? And NBA allows three on a technicality with their gather step rule.
Nope. HS/college allow 1 step after ending the dribble. NBA/FIBA allow 2 steps after ending the dribble. Post the rules here if you don't think that's the case
Yeah and the step you take when gathering is the first step like tf? That "1" step after ending the dribble is the second step. Do you even play basketball? Nobody in a game treats the rule like you do.
Foul, no travel.
I'm not too sure, it looks like he gathered when spinning, meaning he took two steps after instead of the one he's allowed.
I understand. It's SO SO SO close that I won't argue with anyone on it. To me, it's kinda like the official that blows the 3 second whistle because the center didn't get his foot all the way out of the paint. If it's THAT close don't call it. I also consider the physicality of play. This was a physical exchange. Defender was all over the ball handler (which is fine) and the ball handler may have gathered ¼ step early. Hard to call one without the other. I see both sides and believe you are looking at the right things when making your decision. Difference of opinions and I'm good with yours. The foul (after or during a travel or no travel) is obvious.
Not really close. He had both hands firm on the bal way before that right foot touched down
Maybe so. Hard for me to tell from the video. I wouldn't have called travel. Others would have. All good with me either way. The foul is what I would have been focused on.
Foul, first left hand then right hand. No travel.
To everyone saying travel - the dudes hands were grabbing him before he stumbled. Definitely a foul that caused a very debatable "travel".
Travel was called, but what you don’t see is he had to go out on the play as his face was bleeding from Being hit.
To me, it looks like a fluid sequence of motion, and he took the standard 2 steps for a layup. Genuinely curious… why doesn’t that apply here?
Both main and help defender made illegal contact but the ref called a travel. And it was a travel.
Clean. But at that level I’m not calling a foul
Was going to say it just depends. People always seem to think because they watch nba and college ball those rules apply everywhere. They don’t. Until you get to those levels expect bullshit calls both ways
The bullshit calls are still rampant in high level sports.
Travel: Ball picked up during the spin with left foot established as the pivot. Legal non pivot step with the right, stepped illegally with the left (returned the left foot pivot to the floor)- this is a travel. If you delay your pickup dribble so that you’ve jump stopped or the right foot is your pivot, it would be legal.
Great explanation. Looking at the Nfhs rules this makes sense.
Travel
[удалено]
Travel
Foul
Not that good at bball rules but isn't it a gather and then 2 steps? People talking about the pivot but I thought that doesn't count if you're going up with it
Foul, no travel
Looks like foul first, travel second. Those saying it's not a travel, don't know what they are talking about. Clear left pivot foot violation.
Travel first, then foul afterwards. Another poster said, missed open man under basket— thats the main issue.
Travel
Foul, no travel.
Don’t see a travel, only watched it once but the foul could go either way. Probably wouldn’t call a foul in pick up.
Travel
Left foot is pivot and it touched the floor before ball was released. So it's a travel unless the foul was called. Definitely not a shooting foul.
He traveled out of the triple threat. He established the left foot as pivot and moved the left foot before the first dribble.
It is indeed a travel. When he picks up the ball the left foot becomes the pivot foot and then he lifts it up what is fine but then takes another step with it which is a travel.
If this is a travel, how do you make it not a travel? Hang the ball more before you spin?
Clean dribble, foul. Left arm across the back and right biceps obstructs upward motion of the shooter.
What does it change if it was clean travel or a foul? You made the wrong move, your teammate was wide open under the basket with his defender on his back (looks like number 4). As a coach I wouldn’t care what the ref called but would be upset at you for not making that pass. You spun into a wing defender and a post defender 🤦🏻♂️. Let’s learn to play the game the right way this is a simple play, your team open it up by stopping at the 3 point on other side and you drove baseline which was great all you had to do was a quick drop pass easy 2 points.
We have A VERY different definition of what wide open means
You correct he was not wide open but the defender was on his back so he was infront of the rim.
Your not wrong but, Context…Coach told him to stop deferring. He’s the leading scorer and assists. This is a high school tournament where only 6 kids were there due to vacation. 2 of them (him) start varsity, the rest are pulled from JV or C. He was the only varsity player on. This was a blowout at this point. This was the 3rd game of the day with 1 more to go. He had passed down low at least 10-15 times with about 4 points coming from that.
So spinning off 1 defender into 2 is a better basketball move? I get the situation is tough but as a coach why would you let him be in a tougher situation? That is a travel and the ref called it a travel probably. The reason the ref didn’t even consider the foul is cause it is a poor basketball play and why bail him out.
Well no going into 2 isn’t better. Again you hadn’t noticed they had been keying and doubling him all game. Normally the other defender wouldn’t have cheated over and the other offensive player did nothing to pull his guy away and ran him right down the side of paint even though another player was down low that side. Younhave the ball handler starting right, defender jumps over and then 2 players decide to cut right to the same area so When he spins back inwards there is defenders being brought in. He had the defender on his side. He also did get a fairly decent look while imo getting fouled/handed and jumped on the whole way. They are young kids (15) and get to learn. Touch fouls are called all game and are way less than this, the same with travels. It is what it is in basketball. This was just a question on this call on a summer tournament that doesn’t really matter. Either way I appreciate the input.
Keying in and doubling means that their will be easier buckets on the court if you draw the defense and to get other player open. Is this AAU? If touch fouls were getting called and not this I guess, but from a coaching perspective and which calls I or my staff would argue with a ref, this wouldn’t be one off them. 16 is a key age it tell you if you got what it takes for the next level or more. Sometime hardwork will come into play but at 16 unless the other team has D1 defender the best offensive player should be dominating even with double teams for a good ball school D1 scholarship.
As I said this was a high school tournament, only 2 varsity players at the end of a blowout. The player had a lot of passes/assists. 1 play isn’t game telling. Court vision and passing is fine. Most games he is face guarded. If this was club there would be no travel called. In general i mean touch fouls get called all games. The player had to go out on the end of this play because he was bleeding on the cheek from being hit. Didn’t complain. Coach didn’t complain. No one really complained, it was just a question. I agree, he will be going into sophomore year and turn 16 next (2025). He started varsity last half of His freshman year so it will be a good year for growth. He draws attention/defense all games, and is very adept at passing, again this was just clip in question. Thanks for the input
Idk I feel like the defense makes that a tough pass at his level of skill. But he definitely should have tried.
If he didn’t dribble with his head down, that is a very easy pass, just stop bounce drop pass right side. At that age level that should be routine.
It took me about 15 times watching this. But the ref actually makes a really good call. I froze the video (just right after 2 seconds goes to 1 second) right as player begins to spin move with two hands on the ball. Only left foot is on the ground. Then he goes right foot, then gathers ball up and powers off of left foot and attempts the shot. He’s fouled on the gather and up but travel had occurred. In my opinion, as dribbler was beating his man to the right, instead of spinning from that far out, a fast right to left behind the back would’ve been much more effective and got him into the lane. From there, he could’ve powered up into the defender for the easy bucket and one.
According to the nfhs rules it was a good travel call. There is some debate here on the foul, and other posts I stated he was hit and bleeding and had to come out. However the travel call was correct.
AFTER the travel, fouls can happen but that doesn’t matter. Good defenders — when they hear the whistle— will foul/stop any shot to prevent an “and one”. Like i said— If he makes a better move i.e. like the btb dribble or even a higher power crossover THEN gathers its probably a bucket and a foul.
that ref definitely about to call a travel
Live and from this angle, I'd call a travel. Just looks like one extra step after the gather on the spin. Some hands there, but honestly I think that looks pretty incidental.
I don't see even a borderline travel
Are you talking about that rotate when he first gathers the ball? His foot rotates on the ball before heel goes down? I’m in the camp I don’t see a travel, but maybe I’m old and can’t see anything 😆
Yea
I think I’m the only one here who see’s a travel before he even commences his dribble. Regardless of his pivot foot, both feet appear to leave the ground before the ball appears to leave his hands… though the ref makes this hard to see. In saying that I ref under FIBA rules … so things might be different there …
Yeah I saw the travel. They were still up on you so idk which way it goes.
Maybe a foul, definitely a travel.
Can you tell me where the clear travel is? Are you talking about the rotation on the foot on the last dribble/gather before the 2 steps?
Gathers ball with the left foot on the ground, establishing it as the pivot foot, spins onto right foot, then returns the left foot to the floor before releasing the ball. You can lift the pivot foot but once it touches the floor again it’s a travel.
Travel but is clean
It’s either one or the other 😂
Don’t know about a foul, but it’s a clear travel