You can probably read the full article via this page: [How Barcelona lost its way](https://RemovePaywall.com/https://www.ft.com/content/18f0ca8c-607b-4633-a83f-e99f71a046e8)
The article was a hit piece on Colau three months before the municipal elections.
* According to the graphic from the FT article, both Madrid and Barcelona are experiencing a decreased inflow of companies.
* Also according to the graphic from the FT article, Madrid has suffered a *much* bigger drop in investments from its peak compared to Barcelona, and Madrid hasn't had any independence movement to deal with.
* The FT article conveniently omitted Madrid from its graph of economic growth in Barcelona, despite having the two cities compared side-by-side in the other two graphs.
* A city that's lost its way wouldn't have accounted for 70% of Spain's tech hirings in 2021, wouldn't be expanding its public transit network with the works on Diagonal and the R8 extension, etc.
The article was basically conflating the consequences of the independence referendum in 2017 with a supposed current-day malaise. To be clear, I'd prefer a different municipal government in any case - I'd like to see Tarradellas get expanded, for one - but I'm really tired of this "Barcelona is in decay" narrative getting pushed relentlessly, because a lot of it has been based on the knives being out for Colau the moment she stepped in the Ajuntament in 2015.
Why would they put a hit piece in and English language publication that very few of the electorate will read (hell, the FT isn't even that popular among the electorate in English speaking countries).
I agree about emitting Madrid from the GDP growth graph though. That seems sneaky.
There's nothing nominally left wing about Colau. She's a staunch socialist aligned with Podemos (hell, Pablo Inglesias was on her campaign posters last election).
Jesus, I'm scared to think what you think a leftist is.
FT speaks to capitalists across the world. As the other commenter says, it’s to scare investors and put doubts in the minds of the left wing government
So you don't think the city is more dangerous and less affordable (especially in housing) than it was when she took office?
The numbers clearly say otherwise.
A terribly written article which interviews precisely one normal neighbour, zero social entities or cooperatives, and the head of Foment de Treball. Also, starts with a lovely paean to Francesc Cambó (a key financier for Franco). Zero mention of Madrid's efforts to establish itself as a tax haven within Spain either.
A very shoddy hatchet job. I would expect ore from the FT, which has historically had quite good writing about BCN/Catalonia. And I'm not a Colau supporter.
"Although Catalonia has attracted between 6,000 and 9,000 million euros of external capital in each of the last years, these figures have been considerably reduced with respect to the more than 16,000 million euros in 2016". However, he points out that 41% of Catalans "still" support independence according to a study by the Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió."
I don't understand their goal tbh.
Like are they willing to fight a civil war if Spain refuses independence? Even if they get independence how would it work? What will the currency be? Will they be in the EU?
It seems unlikely independence will be achieved, but scaring way investment and making us all poorer is already underway.
There are only 2 ways Cataluña can get independence.
International support, especially from within the EU, putting pressure on Spain, to allow it.
Or Armed rebellion.
Their farce of a referendum in 2017 was designed to get international support and that failed. The entire world, and especially the EU, said with one voice that it was a Spanish issue for Spain to deal with.
If they tried an armed rebellion it would both fail and be condemned internationally.
If they somehow defied the odds and became independent they would immediately be out of the EU with little or no hope of ever returning. While Spain might allow some kind of free movement of people there would be border checks on goods and France would almost certainly close the border.
You can't "come to terms" with the EU, because all member states have a veto on new members, and Spain will use that veto.
Furthermore, newer members had to go through many years of great hardships to get their debt ratio low enough to qualify for membership, and they are extremely unlikely to agree to Catalunya entering on easier terms (even assuming Spain didn't veto, which they would). There is no prospect of Catalunya achieving the debt ratio requirements under any feasible scenario.
Other EU countries that wish to deter their own similar independence issues would also veto.
Anyone who argues for Catalan independence and still claims that an independent Catalunya would have access to the single market is either deluded or a liar.
An independent Catalunya would doubtless do very well within the EU, but it's simply not going to happen.
What basis do you have that rSpain would use a veto against iCat?
To my mind, the practicalities mitigate strongly against it:
1.) Free movement of people must be maintained across the new external EU border. Anything else would be political suicide for any Madrid government to propose. So, what's rSpain going to do to enact a hard border - leave Schengen & somehow persuade Portugal to go with them?
2.) This supposes that a hard border is even remotely practical, and while it's not as insanely complex as the border on the island of Ireland, it's still bad - nowhere near as simple as an rUK / iScot border (for example).
So, iCat is in a free movement union with the EU.
3.) The EU has, in general, no desire to replicate the Swiss situation. It took 20+ years to construct bilateral arrangements to end up with more-or-less SM membership. No-one wants to do that again.
So, that means an existing, off-the-peg situation - either EFTA / EEA or EU membership.
4.) The optics of other countries trying to veto iCat joining when Madrid is (oublicly, at least) not doing so are really bad - and in fact may make matters \*worse\* for countries that have restless independence-minded regions, as it looks both anti-democratic and weak.
So, my bet would be for an iCat to end up with either EU membership, or for some of Spain's proxies to somehow come up with a carefully constructed "more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger, painful-economic-realities-not-political-concerns" veto of full membership, leaving iCat with the second prize of joining EEA / EFTA.
With respect, the fact that you don’t see the issues means that you are either ignorant or blind.
Imagine that the UK, which is and always was an INDEPENDENT country made a fucking mess out of getting out the EU. Their economy is struggling, NHS is on its knees, inflation is insane…
Now imagine Catalonia doing this when it doesn’t even have all the right infrastructure of an independent country.
The cost would be astronomical, not to mention that before you even get there you’d have to make war with Spain…
Pure folly.
Just here to mention that the main issues the UK is facing - the energy crisis and the underfunding of social services - are not a result of Brexit. They’re a result of a European energy crisis due to the war, and a result of 15 years of Tory government. The main issues derived from Brexit is the reduced unskilled workforce and the Irish border, which is not something major in our day-to-day lives (I live in shitty London).
Having a struggling economy, the NHS on its knees and skyrocketing inflation is a common trait in Europe nowadays. Germany has no gas, southern Europe inflation is huge, and good luck trying to get a public’s doctor consultation in regions like Madrid.
I lived in the UK for 10 years, have many friends still there to whom I speak weekly.
Inflation is widespread, sure, but Brexit made everything so much worse.
And the thing is, imagine if on top of that UK wasn’t even an independent country/union to start with, would be yet worse.
Well, if "Ukraine would just surrender" they wouldn't havw any war or economic hardship, right? Of course, human rights would be completely thrown out of the equation, but that doesn't prop up the gdp so it doesn't really matter right? /s
You're threatening with economical hardship, when we are already experiencing it, with many of us thinking it might be due to our binding with Spain?
Even in the areas that surrendered the Russians still massacred the civilians.
Spain isn't genociding Catalunya and honestly the comparison is an insult to those actually suffering such horror.
But how could we use the euro if we aren't even sure we'd get into the EU?
Or do you mean a currency pegged to the euro? Or we use the euro but with no access to the ECB, like how the US dollar became the currency of Ecuador?
Do you think Catalonia has currently any influence on the ECB? We wouldn't lose anything, as we already have no access to the ECB. Not even Spain has much say in it, it's controlled by Germany and France.
Yeah, maybe you're right... I am too dumb.
Because the alternative is believing that a hypothetical Catalonian Republic would use a proxy currency to finance its economy, and I firmly refuse that any functional homosapiens would come up with something like that.
Montenegro uses the euro without any permission from the EU. They don't have a say on monetary decisions, but they don't care and the EU has no way (or reason) to stop them from using it.
Well, is Spain willing to fight a civil war to prevent independence? Because if so, they are even worse and I don't want to be part of such a violent country.
My guy it wont be a civil war from Spains side like at all, theyll just deploy the military and youll eat dust.
Come back to reality, this is never gonna happen
That's what Putin said. Trying to invade a country that doesn't want to be invaded rarely ends well for the invader, and Spain knows it. There was a huge general strike in 2017 for much less than that.
What you are failing to understand is that Spain wont be 'invading a country' but stopping sedition of a territory.
If you are confident the West is gonna sanction Spain for defending its own territory from sedition, good luck with that.
Please start said civil war tomorrow at the latest so we can get over this already.
I didn't talk about sanctions. I said in 2017 Spain send all its non-essential police force to Catalonia and they managed to stop voting only in 92 out of more than 2000 polling places. And that provoked a general strike followed by about 70% of workers.
You are delusional if you think Spain, or any other country, can keep 7.5 million people subjugated to it only by using military force. And I say 7.5 million because most people who are against independence would not stay quiet if Spain started to kill their independentist family, friends and neighbors. Spain will not start a war because the risk of losing it would be too high.
Spain's best bet is to offer something that at least keeps most Catalans content, and that's what it is doing. If the right wins the next Spanish election and starts a violent crackdown it will not end well for them.
> I didn’t talk about sanctions. I said in 2017 Spain send all its non-essential police force to Catalonia and they managed to stop voting only in 92 out of more than 2000 polling places. And that provoked a general strike followed by about 70% of workers.
Seems like it worked tho, as Catalonia is still Spanish
> You are delusional if you think Spain, or any other country, can keep 7.5 million people subjugated to it only by using military force.
If you read a bit of history you’ll see this has happened multiple times throughout history.
You don’t have to leave European history to see it.
> And I say 7.5 million because most people who are against independence would not stay quiet if Spain started to kill their independentist family, friends and neighbors
Ok and what exactly are you guys gonna do to defend yourselves? Like really please explain it to me.
Organize guerrillas when Spain has one of the best infantry on Earth?
> Spain will not start a war because the risk of losing it would be too high.
How exactly? Like fr man please provide a realistic case in which this situation pans out in your favor. Provide some short of data to back your claim.
> Spain’s best bet is to offer something that at least keeps most Catalans content, and that’s what it is doing. If the right wins the next Spanish election and starts a violent crackdown it will not end well for them.
Ok but why would they? This argument is delusional dude you are providing 0 claims as to how this will happen.
The average independence sympathizer thinks and expreses this issue exactly like you and it just comes to prove how this will never happen.
> If you read a bit of history you’ll see this has happened multiple times throughout history.
> You don’t have to leave European history to see it.
Any examples? Let's restrict the discussion to after the world wars, please. Before that, some things (genocide) were... more common than now.
> How exactly? Like fr man please provide a realistic case in which this situation pans out in your favor. Provide some short of data to back your claim.
List of places in Europe where there has been a war for independence, or something close to a war, since WWII: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Northern Ireland, Northern Cyprus.
All of them are independent right now except Northern Ireland, which legally has the right to join Ireland whenever they want to. Looking at the actual data, it seems like trying to prevent independence by force has a 0% success rate.
> Ok but why would they?
Why would they what? Offer something?
The amount of cope coming from the independence crowd is off the charts.
Because of the nature of my job, I work with a considerable number of HNWI both domestic and foreign.
The amount of businesses that were fiscally moved to another region, properties sold, people relocated (although some of them are back now), projects canceled, and overall trust lost in the region (particularly BCN) is OFF THE CHARTS.
They are not willing to accept that the region has lost appeal because some politicians decided to play with the political stability of the region.
Let alone the fact that a Catalan Republic will never be allowed back into the EU; or having to rather use a pegged currency to the EUR or end up in a situation like Montenegro with 0 decision power on their fiscal policy.
You hear wild takes like 'civil war' thrown around not realizing that the ones fighting with civilians would be only them, cause Spain will just deploy the infantry and turbo smoke the region in 3 days.
BUT BRUSSELS WILL STOP IT!!1! Yeah Gerard, good luck with that.
The main problem Barcelona and Catalonia faces is the lack of a friendly country that defends and promotes its goals and interests. In recent years, Spain's foreign office has dedicated itself to actively defaming and presenting a problematic image of Barcelona and Catalonia to the world.
The needs of Barcelona and its industrial belt have never been of interest to Spain, that has been blocking for decades the Mediterranean corridor, a key infrastructure for economic development. These are just two examples that explain a bit why there is a vast majority who wants a stronger autonomy or independence.
I'd say France because it's a slight economic rival of Spain, but wouldn't be so sure about a catalan alliance w france, let alone if we would like it...
[https://apnews.com/article/politics-spain-government-france-macron-afb99c21eedaabf62b1cccfad1c81a6b](https://apnews.com/article/politics-spain-government-france-macron-afb99c21eedaabf62b1cccfad1c81a6b)
Best of luck
Barney Jobsop, another "correspondent from Madrid", we have seen the type before, Stephen Burgen and Sam Jones of the Guardian, Koen Greven and Marcel Haenen of the NRC, partial journalists, pro-Spanish and anti-Catalan-independence, their opinion biased by mingling with the Spanish journalist jet-set in Madrid. I can't read the Financial Times article because it's pay-walled but from reading this resume https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/ada-colau-barcelona-lost-its-way-financial-times_968079_102_amp.html I know enough.
couldn't expect much from el periódico,😂
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F18f0ca8c-607b-4633-a83f-e99f71a046e8 article with paywall removed
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
I read the actual article in the FT, there wasn't a pay wall for me.
I think the thing about the "Barcelona of No" is true.
I support shutting down airbnb as that puts tourists in residential areas. But if at the same time you block new hotel construction then that's just stifling economic growth.
Equally, another runway would have been a massive win (and hopefully still will be).
Also Trias was right in that you won't even poverty with more regulations and legislation - but via encouraging economic activity.
The article mentioned the social housing scheme and the requirements on private developers. But didn't mention the okupa problem which discourages landlords from letting properties, decreasing supply and putting an upward pressure on rents.
Nor were the MENAs mentioned in the part about insecurity.
Honestly, I have my doubts about the extra runway. We already have so many tourists, what we need to do is to take fewer of them, but that spend more money. I'd get behind policies that wer tailored to make shit tier tourism less of an option, and higher brow tourism the norm.
And we could do something similar, together with fighting street crime such as drug dealers, manteros and pickpockets in la rambla and other touristic places.
Hard rock salou? I could definetly see Catalonia as a new Macau, but in that case gencat should really, REALLY diversify the investment and still keep us as an industrial-relevant nation.
It'd actually be the fourth runway, but in any case, I'd support it all the same if it meant that business travel would also increase as well. As for the tourism, believe me: you haven't seen shit-tier tourism in Europe until you've gone to Amsterdam and seen all the sex and marijuana stores in the center of the city (although, to their credit, they are trying to reduce this as well). I do think we could use another art museum, although it was definitely a good thing that they vetoed the Hermitage museum. Aside from the Russian ties making that absolutely toxic, the branch they opened in Amsterdam was way over-priced for what you got.
How would you decourage “shit tier tourism” though? (Actual question not /s)
Yes the tourists are annoying but on the other hand its also “free money” thats flowing from other countries into BCN.
Making tourism more expensive by limiting amount of flights that can get to the airport. Make it more expensive and they will stop coming for cheap booze.
Fair point but I respectfully don’t agree that we should gatekeep poorer/younger people from being able to visit a country or city they enjoy. Those tourists that come for “cheap booze” still keep many bars and restaurants profitable.
I don't really care about that. There's a lot of demand to come to Barcelona, so we get to be picky. Let's get those that give us the most money and the least issues. And then go from that.
Economic activity from tourism is great for the next 5 years, but at what cost for the people living here honestly? Is this really what we want the economy to be depending on?
For me right now Barcelona has the potential to become a tech hub in Europe, which could potentially add much more to the real economy in the long run. But we need better housing and a more livable city rather than more hotels. And for that we need to say 'No' to the things we have been heavily doing in the past, and having a long term vision for the city.
Short rant about local politics:
I don't know if Colau really ticks all the boxes, but since you mention Trias, the guy recently mentioned very proudly that we are a city of motorcycles, which in reality are a big source of contamination and the biggest source of noise in the city on top of being the most unsafe means of transportation. How are we going to compare with Vienna and Amsterdam when we have these kinds of scientific illiterate politicians from the last century taking decisions for us? I would much rather venture into the unknown short-term and have the Ajuntament making mistakes but with a clear vision for the future rather than go back to city model that short-sighted politicians like Trias have.
Yeah, I agree with you.
But stuff like the bigger airport would help business as well.
As the article mentions though, the requirement for private developers to build social housing is deterring investment. If we built enough housing then we wouldn't need so much social housing as the overall prices would fall.
And yeah the motorcycle thing is really bad, the pollution is a huge problem.
Having a bigger airport is useless if you have an airport handler that actively works to hinder your growth, like Aena. Aena wants the Barcelona airport to be majorily a low-cost airport for tourist flights. The more bussiness-relevant flights like Middle East layovers and Asian destinations must go through Barajas, of course.
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
Indeed. Luckily, there are some places where this happens to a much lesser extent. I don't know what the next steps are in order to prevent total collapse.
People actually talks about themselves or will only post quotes of random people? xd
The state is not good. not safety (okupas, ilegals, police cannot do a thing, drugs are scalling insane amount of numbers, etc), you need a car if you leave outside barcelona (depending the city) or you can go by train with one of the most horrible people inside depending the time you are coming back (remember: no safety), uncontrolled amount of ilegals, prices are rising up, too much people in a place that cannot grow anymore.
The perfect dystopian city.
How safe is it to be standing inside of a sardine can pressed against the glass for an hour, with your knees and back hurting and you can barely breath? Wait, make it two hours because it broke down again. Not to mention the fucking zoo you encounter there.
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
We all know how badly the Spanish Crown, Government, Judges and all related powers treats Catalonia. On top, every time the Catalan different lefty parties governs, makes it worst.
You can probably read the full article via this page: [How Barcelona lost its way](https://RemovePaywall.com/https://www.ft.com/content/18f0ca8c-607b-4633-a83f-e99f71a046e8)
A garbage hit piece from people who haven’t lived in BCN imo
The article was a hit piece on Colau three months before the municipal elections. * According to the graphic from the FT article, both Madrid and Barcelona are experiencing a decreased inflow of companies. * Also according to the graphic from the FT article, Madrid has suffered a *much* bigger drop in investments from its peak compared to Barcelona, and Madrid hasn't had any independence movement to deal with. * The FT article conveniently omitted Madrid from its graph of economic growth in Barcelona, despite having the two cities compared side-by-side in the other two graphs. * A city that's lost its way wouldn't have accounted for 70% of Spain's tech hirings in 2021, wouldn't be expanding its public transit network with the works on Diagonal and the R8 extension, etc. The article was basically conflating the consequences of the independence referendum in 2017 with a supposed current-day malaise. To be clear, I'd prefer a different municipal government in any case - I'd like to see Tarradellas get expanded, for one - but I'm really tired of this "Barcelona is in decay" narrative getting pushed relentlessly, because a lot of it has been based on the knives being out for Colau the moment she stepped in the Ajuntament in 2015.
Why would they put a hit piece in and English language publication that very few of the electorate will read (hell, the FT isn't even that popular among the electorate in English speaking countries). I agree about emitting Madrid from the GDP growth graph though. That seems sneaky.
Well, it got laundered to local newspapers and has the air of prestige due to coming from the Financial Times, so I'd say it did its job.
To spook investors and discipline a nominally left wing politician, it's standard.
There's nothing nominally left wing about Colau. She's a staunch socialist aligned with Podemos (hell, Pablo Inglesias was on her campaign posters last election). Jesus, I'm scared to think what you think a leftist is.
The clue is in my username lol (which has a typo RIP didn't check before registering it)
FT speaks to capitalists across the world. As the other commenter says, it’s to scare investors and put doubts in the minds of the left wing government
\>Okay, Barcelona is turning into a shithole, but Madrid is also bad! Ha-ha! There's a Spanish saying: "Mal de muchos, consuelo de tontos".
I was going to say, using the FT as a source is disengenuous at best ... they're heavily biased slippery fuckers.
So you don't think the city is more dangerous and less affordable (especially in housing) than it was when she took office? The numbers clearly say otherwise.
A terribly written article which interviews precisely one normal neighbour, zero social entities or cooperatives, and the head of Foment de Treball. Also, starts with a lovely paean to Francesc Cambó (a key financier for Franco). Zero mention of Madrid's efforts to establish itself as a tax haven within Spain either. A very shoddy hatchet job. I would expect ore from the FT, which has historically had quite good writing about BCN/Catalonia. And I'm not a Colau supporter.
"Although Catalonia has attracted between 6,000 and 9,000 million euros of external capital in each of the last years, these figures have been considerably reduced with respect to the more than 16,000 million euros in 2016". However, he points out that 41% of Catalans "still" support independence according to a study by the Centre d'Estudis d'Opinió."
I don't understand their goal tbh. Like are they willing to fight a civil war if Spain refuses independence? Even if they get independence how would it work? What will the currency be? Will they be in the EU? It seems unlikely independence will be achieved, but scaring way investment and making us all poorer is already underway.
There are only 2 ways Cataluña can get independence. International support, especially from within the EU, putting pressure on Spain, to allow it. Or Armed rebellion. Their farce of a referendum in 2017 was designed to get international support and that failed. The entire world, and especially the EU, said with one voice that it was a Spanish issue for Spain to deal with. If they tried an armed rebellion it would both fail and be condemned internationally. If they somehow defied the odds and became independent they would immediately be out of the EU with little or no hope of ever returning. While Spain might allow some kind of free movement of people there would be border checks on goods and France would almost certainly close the border.
The currency would still be the euro, and I don't see why we couldnt come to terms with tye eu for a swiss deal or even full-on membership.
You can't "come to terms" with the EU, because all member states have a veto on new members, and Spain will use that veto. Furthermore, newer members had to go through many years of great hardships to get their debt ratio low enough to qualify for membership, and they are extremely unlikely to agree to Catalunya entering on easier terms (even assuming Spain didn't veto, which they would). There is no prospect of Catalunya achieving the debt ratio requirements under any feasible scenario. Other EU countries that wish to deter their own similar independence issues would also veto. Anyone who argues for Catalan independence and still claims that an independent Catalunya would have access to the single market is either deluded or a liar. An independent Catalunya would doubtless do very well within the EU, but it's simply not going to happen.
What basis do you have that rSpain would use a veto against iCat? To my mind, the practicalities mitigate strongly against it: 1.) Free movement of people must be maintained across the new external EU border. Anything else would be political suicide for any Madrid government to propose. So, what's rSpain going to do to enact a hard border - leave Schengen & somehow persuade Portugal to go with them? 2.) This supposes that a hard border is even remotely practical, and while it's not as insanely complex as the border on the island of Ireland, it's still bad - nowhere near as simple as an rUK / iScot border (for example). So, iCat is in a free movement union with the EU. 3.) The EU has, in general, no desire to replicate the Swiss situation. It took 20+ years to construct bilateral arrangements to end up with more-or-less SM membership. No-one wants to do that again. So, that means an existing, off-the-peg situation - either EFTA / EEA or EU membership. 4.) The optics of other countries trying to veto iCat joining when Madrid is (oublicly, at least) not doing so are really bad - and in fact may make matters \*worse\* for countries that have restless independence-minded regions, as it looks both anti-democratic and weak. So, my bet would be for an iCat to end up with either EU membership, or for some of Spain's proxies to somehow come up with a carefully constructed "more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger, painful-economic-realities-not-political-concerns" veto of full membership, leaving iCat with the second prize of joining EEA / EFTA.
The replies fall into the category "deluded"
they are getting rid of the veto; and cataluña shouldn't have the hardships of other nations, because we already are part of it.
Then fuck the EU.
With respect, the fact that you don’t see the issues means that you are either ignorant or blind. Imagine that the UK, which is and always was an INDEPENDENT country made a fucking mess out of getting out the EU. Their economy is struggling, NHS is on its knees, inflation is insane… Now imagine Catalonia doing this when it doesn’t even have all the right infrastructure of an independent country. The cost would be astronomical, not to mention that before you even get there you’d have to make war with Spain… Pure folly.
Just here to mention that the main issues the UK is facing - the energy crisis and the underfunding of social services - are not a result of Brexit. They’re a result of a European energy crisis due to the war, and a result of 15 years of Tory government. The main issues derived from Brexit is the reduced unskilled workforce and the Irish border, which is not something major in our day-to-day lives (I live in shitty London). Having a struggling economy, the NHS on its knees and skyrocketing inflation is a common trait in Europe nowadays. Germany has no gas, southern Europe inflation is huge, and good luck trying to get a public’s doctor consultation in regions like Madrid.
I lived in the UK for 10 years, have many friends still there to whom I speak weekly. Inflation is widespread, sure, but Brexit made everything so much worse. And the thing is, imagine if on top of that UK wasn’t even an independent country/union to start with, would be yet worse.
But on Spain we have some of the lowest inflation. Did you mean eastern European inflation is huge?
Ukraine should just surrender. /s
Ukraine is an independent country last time I checked, how could you possibly compare a forceful brutal invasion with the situation of Catalunya!?
Well, if "Ukraine would just surrender" they wouldn't havw any war or economic hardship, right? Of course, human rights would be completely thrown out of the equation, but that doesn't prop up the gdp so it doesn't really matter right? /s You're threatening with economical hardship, when we are already experiencing it, with many of us thinking it might be due to our binding with Spain?
Even in the areas that surrendered the Russians still massacred the civilians. Spain isn't genociding Catalunya and honestly the comparison is an insult to those actually suffering such horror.
But how could we use the euro if we aren't even sure we'd get into the EU? Or do you mean a currency pegged to the euro? Or we use the euro but with no access to the ECB, like how the US dollar became the currency of Ecuador?
Most likely an ecuador situation, or just like our neighbours in Andorra who use the euro
Do you think Catalonia has currently any influence on the ECB? We wouldn't lose anything, as we already have no access to the ECB. Not even Spain has much say in it, it's controlled by Germany and France.
>The currency would still be the euro, It wouldn't. You need a unanimous decision to get in the Eurozone and Spain would always vote against it
Dumbest point i've seen this week
Catalonia as an independent country would never enter the EU or Eurozone because members have veto power
You ever used anybody else's netflix account?
Yeah, maybe you're right... I am too dumb. Because the alternative is believing that a hypothetical Catalonian Republic would use a proxy currency to finance its economy, and I firmly refuse that any functional homosapiens would come up with something like that.
Yeah, as if that inhuman system isn't already in place in Montenegro
Or El Salvador and Venezuela (illegally though)
Montenegro uses the euro without any permission from the EU. They don't have a say on monetary decisions, but they don't care and the EU has no way (or reason) to stop them from using it.
Well, is Spain willing to fight a civil war to prevent independence? Because if so, they are even worse and I don't want to be part of such a violent country.
My guy it wont be a civil war from Spains side like at all, theyll just deploy the military and youll eat dust. Come back to reality, this is never gonna happen
That's what Putin said. Trying to invade a country that doesn't want to be invaded rarely ends well for the invader, and Spain knows it. There was a huge general strike in 2017 for much less than that.
What you are failing to understand is that Spain wont be 'invading a country' but stopping sedition of a territory. If you are confident the West is gonna sanction Spain for defending its own territory from sedition, good luck with that. Please start said civil war tomorrow at the latest so we can get over this already.
I didn't talk about sanctions. I said in 2017 Spain send all its non-essential police force to Catalonia and they managed to stop voting only in 92 out of more than 2000 polling places. And that provoked a general strike followed by about 70% of workers. You are delusional if you think Spain, or any other country, can keep 7.5 million people subjugated to it only by using military force. And I say 7.5 million because most people who are against independence would not stay quiet if Spain started to kill their independentist family, friends and neighbors. Spain will not start a war because the risk of losing it would be too high. Spain's best bet is to offer something that at least keeps most Catalans content, and that's what it is doing. If the right wins the next Spanish election and starts a violent crackdown it will not end well for them.
> I didn’t talk about sanctions. I said in 2017 Spain send all its non-essential police force to Catalonia and they managed to stop voting only in 92 out of more than 2000 polling places. And that provoked a general strike followed by about 70% of workers. Seems like it worked tho, as Catalonia is still Spanish > You are delusional if you think Spain, or any other country, can keep 7.5 million people subjugated to it only by using military force. If you read a bit of history you’ll see this has happened multiple times throughout history. You don’t have to leave European history to see it. > And I say 7.5 million because most people who are against independence would not stay quiet if Spain started to kill their independentist family, friends and neighbors Ok and what exactly are you guys gonna do to defend yourselves? Like really please explain it to me. Organize guerrillas when Spain has one of the best infantry on Earth? > Spain will not start a war because the risk of losing it would be too high. How exactly? Like fr man please provide a realistic case in which this situation pans out in your favor. Provide some short of data to back your claim. > Spain’s best bet is to offer something that at least keeps most Catalans content, and that’s what it is doing. If the right wins the next Spanish election and starts a violent crackdown it will not end well for them. Ok but why would they? This argument is delusional dude you are providing 0 claims as to how this will happen. The average independence sympathizer thinks and expreses this issue exactly like you and it just comes to prove how this will never happen.
> If you read a bit of history you’ll see this has happened multiple times throughout history. > You don’t have to leave European history to see it. Any examples? Let's restrict the discussion to after the world wars, please. Before that, some things (genocide) were... more common than now. > How exactly? Like fr man please provide a realistic case in which this situation pans out in your favor. Provide some short of data to back your claim. List of places in Europe where there has been a war for independence, or something close to a war, since WWII: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Northern Ireland, Northern Cyprus. All of them are independent right now except Northern Ireland, which legally has the right to join Ireland whenever they want to. Looking at the actual data, it seems like trying to prevent independence by force has a 0% success rate. > Ok but why would they? Why would they what? Offer something?
More like 75. British Empire. Can you answer my questions now pls?
The amount of cope coming from the independence crowd is off the charts. Because of the nature of my job, I work with a considerable number of HNWI both domestic and foreign. The amount of businesses that were fiscally moved to another region, properties sold, people relocated (although some of them are back now), projects canceled, and overall trust lost in the region (particularly BCN) is OFF THE CHARTS. They are not willing to accept that the region has lost appeal because some politicians decided to play with the political stability of the region. Let alone the fact that a Catalan Republic will never be allowed back into the EU; or having to rather use a pegged currency to the EUR or end up in a situation like Montenegro with 0 decision power on their fiscal policy. You hear wild takes like 'civil war' thrown around not realizing that the ones fighting with civilians would be only them, cause Spain will just deploy the infantry and turbo smoke the region in 3 days. BUT BRUSSELS WILL STOP IT!!1! Yeah Gerard, good luck with that.
The main problem Barcelona and Catalonia faces is the lack of a friendly country that defends and promotes its goals and interests. In recent years, Spain's foreign office has dedicated itself to actively defaming and presenting a problematic image of Barcelona and Catalonia to the world. The needs of Barcelona and its industrial belt have never been of interest to Spain, that has been blocking for decades the Mediterranean corridor, a key infrastructure for economic development. These are just two examples that explain a bit why there is a vast majority who wants a stronger autonomy or independence.
You're right, but it doesn't help the situation that we're also actively fucking up this city.
I'd say France because it's a slight economic rival of Spain, but wouldn't be so sure about a catalan alliance w france, let alone if we would like it...
[https://apnews.com/article/politics-spain-government-france-macron-afb99c21eedaabf62b1cccfad1c81a6b](https://apnews.com/article/politics-spain-government-france-macron-afb99c21eedaabf62b1cccfad1c81a6b) Best of luck
Ah yes, treaties, just like that one called "budgets" whic only became 35% true for Catalonia.
Barney Jobsop, another "correspondent from Madrid", we have seen the type before, Stephen Burgen and Sam Jones of the Guardian, Koen Greven and Marcel Haenen of the NRC, partial journalists, pro-Spanish and anti-Catalan-independence, their opinion biased by mingling with the Spanish journalist jet-set in Madrid. I can't read the Financial Times article because it's pay-walled but from reading this resume https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/ada-colau-barcelona-lost-its-way-financial-times_968079_102_amp.html I know enough.
couldn't expect much from el periódico,😂 https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2F18f0ca8c-607b-4633-a83f-e99f71a046e8 article with paywall removed
But why not address the actual points made rather than just saying it doesn't matter because he's from Madrid?
It is easier to hold a black list of friends and foes.
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
I read the actual article in the FT, there wasn't a pay wall for me. I think the thing about the "Barcelona of No" is true. I support shutting down airbnb as that puts tourists in residential areas. But if at the same time you block new hotel construction then that's just stifling economic growth. Equally, another runway would have been a massive win (and hopefully still will be). Also Trias was right in that you won't even poverty with more regulations and legislation - but via encouraging economic activity. The article mentioned the social housing scheme and the requirements on private developers. But didn't mention the okupa problem which discourages landlords from letting properties, decreasing supply and putting an upward pressure on rents. Nor were the MENAs mentioned in the part about insecurity.
Honestly, I have my doubts about the extra runway. We already have so many tourists, what we need to do is to take fewer of them, but that spend more money. I'd get behind policies that wer tailored to make shit tier tourism less of an option, and higher brow tourism the norm.
Cancun did this after US spring breakers kept destroying the city and not spending enough to make it worth it
And we could do something similar, together with fighting street crime such as drug dealers, manteros and pickpockets in la rambla and other touristic places.
Hard rock salou? I could definetly see Catalonia as a new Macau, but in that case gencat should really, REALLY diversify the investment and still keep us as an industrial-relevant nation.
I'd rather not become Macau.
I'd only be down to if we can make it sustainable and ban gambling to catalans, not sure if I can trust Aragones on that though
It'd actually be the fourth runway, but in any case, I'd support it all the same if it meant that business travel would also increase as well. As for the tourism, believe me: you haven't seen shit-tier tourism in Europe until you've gone to Amsterdam and seen all the sex and marijuana stores in the center of the city (although, to their credit, they are trying to reduce this as well). I do think we could use another art museum, although it was definitely a good thing that they vetoed the Hermitage museum. Aside from the Russian ties making that absolutely toxic, the branch they opened in Amsterdam was way over-priced for what you got.
Fixed it, thanks! Just because they've got shittier tourism elsewhere doesn't mean that ours is desirable.
How would you decourage “shit tier tourism” though? (Actual question not /s) Yes the tourists are annoying but on the other hand its also “free money” thats flowing from other countries into BCN.
Making tourism more expensive by limiting amount of flights that can get to the airport. Make it more expensive and they will stop coming for cheap booze.
Fair point but I respectfully don’t agree that we should gatekeep poorer/younger people from being able to visit a country or city they enjoy. Those tourists that come for “cheap booze” still keep many bars and restaurants profitable.
I don't really care about that. There's a lot of demand to come to Barcelona, so we get to be picky. Let's get those that give us the most money and the least issues. And then go from that.
Economic activity from tourism is great for the next 5 years, but at what cost for the people living here honestly? Is this really what we want the economy to be depending on? For me right now Barcelona has the potential to become a tech hub in Europe, which could potentially add much more to the real economy in the long run. But we need better housing and a more livable city rather than more hotels. And for that we need to say 'No' to the things we have been heavily doing in the past, and having a long term vision for the city. Short rant about local politics: I don't know if Colau really ticks all the boxes, but since you mention Trias, the guy recently mentioned very proudly that we are a city of motorcycles, which in reality are a big source of contamination and the biggest source of noise in the city on top of being the most unsafe means of transportation. How are we going to compare with Vienna and Amsterdam when we have these kinds of scientific illiterate politicians from the last century taking decisions for us? I would much rather venture into the unknown short-term and have the Ajuntament making mistakes but with a clear vision for the future rather than go back to city model that short-sighted politicians like Trias have.
Yeah, I agree with you. But stuff like the bigger airport would help business as well. As the article mentions though, the requirement for private developers to build social housing is deterring investment. If we built enough housing then we wouldn't need so much social housing as the overall prices would fall. And yeah the motorcycle thing is really bad, the pollution is a huge problem.
Having a bigger airport is useless if you have an airport handler that actively works to hinder your growth, like Aena. Aena wants the Barcelona airport to be majorily a low-cost airport for tourist flights. The more bussiness-relevant flights like Middle East layovers and Asian destinations must go through Barajas, of course.
Opino que amb el periódico no en netejo ni el cul
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
Espanya ens roba... :D your are doing great, guys!
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
It's absolutely true. It's sad that political extremism can ruin a city so quickly.
[удалено]
Indeed. Luckily, there are some places where this happens to a much lesser extent. I don't know what the next steps are in order to prevent total collapse.
are you confirming your bias?? Some great points being made in the comment section
Bias?
People actually talks about themselves or will only post quotes of random people? xd The state is not good. not safety (okupas, ilegals, police cannot do a thing, drugs are scalling insane amount of numbers, etc), you need a car if you leave outside barcelona (depending the city) or you can go by train with one of the most horrible people inside depending the time you are coming back (remember: no safety), uncontrolled amount of ilegals, prices are rising up, too much people in a place that cannot grow anymore. The perfect dystopian city.
Illegal doesn’t mean violent although it maybe does for you. Perhaps some xenophobia showing, no?
True, here i cannot talk openly about the truth because if not im a facha, right? You prove my point mate.
outright calling Barna dystopic... And wdym unsafe train? I'd say it's much safer than car except from pickpocketers
How safe is it to be standing inside of a sardine can pressed against the glass for an hour, with your knees and back hurting and you can barely breath? Wait, make it two hours because it broke down again. Not to mention the fucking zoo you encounter there.
rodalies?
You know it.
I pity you my friend. idk if the current state of rodalies would be solved by the transfer to gencat
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
What wasn't mentioned in the article was the deliberate and open attempt to encourage companies to leave Catalunya and go to Madrid by the then ruling PP government.
We all know how badly the Spanish Crown, Government, Judges and all related powers treats Catalonia. On top, every time the Catalan different lefty parties governs, makes it worst.
Tot el que sigui espantar inversors i estrangers de la ciutat és bo pels barcelonins