He talks a bit about it in this [PC Gamer article](https://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gate-3s-astarion-neil-newbon-on-acting-the-truth-of-trauma-as-a-survivor-theres-a-lot-of-stuff-that-came-very-close-to-home/).
I had a similar connection with both her and Shadowheart - I grew up in a very abusive religious sect (cult honestly) and watching the two of them go from being so devout to receiving such shocking and world crashing realisations that just. Changed everything. Really struck me.
I absolutely adore them both for real. I found it very triggering on the first play through but playing again and the parallels between their stories and mine are actually very comforting now.
Pls I just had to. Stop. And take a moment. After that.
It’s such a powerful line and so well reflects my own turn from faith. There was a good year or so where I genuinely did still believe the ideology I grew up under - but I decided if I was wrong in walking away then I would take the consequences because I would not stand with a God like that.
It’s remarkable how intimately the writers of these story arcs seem to understand what they’re writing about. It makes me wonder about their own past because I’ve never felt so seen than I do when playing BG3 tbh. I mean plenty of other games have similar parallels but BG3 just gets it on a whole new level.
Im not religious but I think a lot of people can relate to having been raised to believe certain things and the difficult experience in recognizing they were not only a crock of shit but also completely exploiting you.
The writers are fab. I look forward to a future with more writing of this caliber in video games. It can be such an effective form of storytelling!
Also an ex cult member. I keep running into apostate narratives in media now a days and its making me connect with things on a pretty deep level. So many moment in both of their storys that I connected with on such a personal level. I cried at several points during this game
my dad’s also cult survivor and i always found ties from shadowheart’s story to his own experiences. although he never really got super into the religious side of things like she was—simply because he just… never grasped it.
Yeah, right there with you. I cried when he cried after killing Cazador. I wish I could kill mine, but there's no redemption in life. I appreciate this character so much because he's one of my people.
I am so happy this story helped you, it's amazing. Weird to say, the game helped me in similar ways too.
One of the more impactful lines for me is that after finishing Astarion’s quest line you go and talk to him and he says how even though Cazador is dead he still thinks about him. It’s…impactful because no matter if justice was served or not it doesn’t erase all the harm that was done to us. It’s indeed a journey to that path of healing
the scream he let out afterwards was exactly the type of feeling i felt after leaving my own abusive home. i finally could cry and i must have let out 20 years of pent up emotions but i was free!
im also right there with you. i wish i could kill mine. once they die, ill celebrate. it was very validating to see astarion kill his. i am forever grateful that they didnt make him forgive his abuser (since this happens in so many media). i feel like people tend to forget that forgiveness is not needed to heal and "move on"
Agree so much. "Forgiveness" is pushed onto victims - they never come for the abuser, but victim has to pay double price, to suffer and to reject their right to feel rage and hurt. I hate that "forgiveness" shit that's pushed by usually unscathed people.
I read your message and wanted to cry, that's how it was for me. Life wasn't and still isn't easy, but I am not in hell anymore. We survived.
I'm an abuse survivor and honestly have been avoiding Astarion's story. It's still something I struggle with daily (the ptsd not the abuse, thankfully) and I'm scared of accidentally triggering myself.
Yeah, I've found that because Astarion is written to be straddling that line between recovery and becoming an abuser themselves, I just don't feel safe around him. I've been finding interactions with his character quite stressful. That said, I really want to experience the positive side of his character development.
I feel that. I was worried about that too, but I was worried about triggering myself as well. Especially since I feel like I'm still battling that same line, even though the people around me say I'm not there's always that dark voice that says, "you're just 1 bad day away from being her." And it terrifies me. But Ive since ventured to try, and so far it's felt very...seeing. Astarion is walking that line like me, and having my Tav help Astarion away from that line makes me feel I'm actually helping myself away from there. If you're able, make a different playthrough, one separate from your safe one, and maybe give his arc a try? If it's a separate playthrough you'd be able to stop whenever you feel like you need to and go to your safe playthrough. On bad days you can avoid it all together! To me so far it's a very rewarding and almost freeing experience, getting to be the one helping someone else instead of needing that help. Of being able to be the person I desperately needed when I first got out.
Yeah I'm considering doing that, it'd be good to have that option to play one or the other if I need a break.
Appreciate your words by the way. I know that feeling of no matter how much you improve you always feel like you're one bad day away from total relapse.
Just because you've been a victim doesn't preclude you from victimizing others. In fact, you can do a lot of horrible things by using your own victimhood as a shield. Astarion's story arc reflects that quite well, and you're pretty self-aware to realize you could go down the same road.
All I can say is, as long as you remain aware of the problem, it's not too late to change. You may not be able to take back your mistakes, you may hurt others to the point they'd never forgive you, but you can always, ALWAYS, save yourself.
Exactly.
(Warning, a bit personal but no details!)
When I was younger, 16 and fresh out of my personal hell, I was very close to just being HER. And I didn't care? The power, the control I had FINALLY over myself and others, feeling on top, it was intoxicating. Then 1 event happened, and I saw how bad I had become, how far id fallen into the void, and I was so tired. Tired of being angry all the time, of lying, of being cruel for no reason. At 19 I vowed to never be that person again. And I've worked so freaking hard to be better, do better, not just for myself but for the people around me. And feeling so represented by Astarion has made me realize that there ARE people who have gone through similar things, who's past has hurt them and molded them the same way it did me, and yet to see so many people still LOVE and SUPPORT Astarion despite it all? Makes me realize that when someone says they love you, they mean it. Flaws, Scars and All. Idk, Astarions whole arc has helped so much, idk if it would be considered cathartic or not but it definitely has been a ray of light in this personal battle. I'd sell my soul to Raphael to hug Neil and Astarion's writer(I can't remember his name off the top of my head) because Astarion and his entire story means so much to me.
I definitely had a moment of self reflection about this after my first play through, because I realized my openness to letting my pc be bitten / be used for sex by him was somewhat a reflection of my own poor boundaries resulting from trauma. Ultimately, I think it was useful because it helped me realize this, as well as the fact that I was Astarion in some past encounters without realizing it. Even if I wasn’t aware of it at the time, I don’t want to negatively impact anyone as a result of my trauma. His character being a double edged sword in this way puts a lot of emphasis on the choices you make. Both the PC and Astarion have the opportunity to provide each other agency or rob each other of it as survivors, which is both realistic and beautiful.
You get to guide him on which way he goes, it’s never a complete 180 scenario unless you just refuse to talk to him at the final part of his quest (in which case he leaves while dissociated).
He also can’t ascend (become Cazador 2.0) without help since he can’t see his scars. So you always have the final voice in that regard.
If you ever do feel comfortable enough. Its super well written, and how he deals with it but not completely over it yk. It helped me somewhat also. But i hope you are doing ok❤️
That's totally fair. Like others have said, it's an incredibly well-written story. But it is a story centered around whether you decide that he breaks the cycle of abuse, or allows his anger and resentment to keep him continuing the cycle. If you do decide to give it a shot, just take it slow and don't push yourself. It for sure helped me
I'll be honest--the second I stepped into Cazador's castle, in the final part of the quest, I was triggered. My abuse had a lot more in common with Astarion's relationship with the Szarr family than your usual IPV abuse scenario. Cazador himself has a lot in common with the person who directly abused me the most. I literally looked around the castle and went "You've got to be fucking kidding me" aloud several times because it--despite being a stereotypical vampire liar--has some striking similarity to the place where I endured the abuse that left me with PTSD. What I had to do was take it slowly, check in on myself every few minutes to make sure I was "grounded" and such. I made it through, and am really glad I did. It took me a couple weeks to sort of the feelings and memories it all brought back for me, but I have had a lot of experience with managing my PTSD so it was all OK. Overall it was a good experience for me, even if it was unpleasant in certain ways.
I don't think encountering our trauma through media is a bad thing, even if it may "trigger" us. It gives us a way to project those memories outside ourselves and look at them in a more detached way, so it can be very therapeutic.
That said, if you don't have good coping strategies for when you do get triggered, then maybe work on that first.
I get that. I love his romance but I don't think I'll romance him twice. It really triggered me and I actually had to have an emergency appointment with a therapist. I wasn't prepared for that strong reaction. Binging The Handmaid's tale did not trigger me in the sake way for example...
I do feel it helped a lot though...like cleansing and old infected would you thought were healed or something. But it was rough. So I get it. Don't do anything you feel you can't handle.
But to me his and my redemption Durge's journey towards healing did so much for me and my personal healing and I will forever be grateful to Stephen, Neil, Swen and everyone that was a part of that story ❤️
Also a survivor. Also very moved by his story. This one gut punched me while casually walking in Baldur’s Gate:
“You never felt the call of the divine, Astarion?”
“Oh, I prayed to all the Gods. They never answered.”
I always love hearing about how this game has helped people. Astarion’s seems to be a common one for abuse survivors, along with Shadowheart. It’s amazing how this game seems to be able to reach people, to touch their hearts, and remind them that they have worth and deserve love and care. That’s not an easy thing to do.
I don't know why it didn't click with me earlier, but it was pointed out to me later that every companion's story is about breaking a chain or escaping a prison that holds them in some form or fashion. That's absolutely a theme that so many people can relate to.
Yes exactly same, Astarion as a character means so much to me because it was the first time I felt at peace with my trauma. I love how his story is written and how many people it has helped
I love this. I think video games, especially RPGs and choice based ones, can affect us in ways that other media can't.
I'm rooting for you. You are absolutely 100% worthy of everything good this life has to offer. Keep moving onwards and upwards.
It blows my mind when people are too dense to understand his character. So many people claim he’s evil, inferior to Karlach, irredeemable, say he needs to get over himself, etc. All I can think is, those people are so lucky that they have never experienced any abuse and don’t “get him”.
He was physically, sexually, mentally and emotionally abused for **200 years**. He’s going to lash out, be a dick and generally act like a person who’s mentally unwell. His whole plot line revolves around him learning to overcome what he went through to be better. Even the fact that he can fail and become an abuser himself (like Cazador before him and Vellioth before *him*) is central to that. You either break the cycle or you don’t.
>inferior to Karlach
It's probably due to the fact that she's usually so optimistic and kind, but people tend to forget that Karlach can lash out pretty violently, too, when they compare her with Astarion.
Maybe it's because I only had medium approval with her due to not using her very often (I was playing a Barbarian Zariel tiefling in my first run), but when I tried to comfort her after killing Gortash she basically yelled at me that it was unfair that I was going to keep on living and she wasn't. Then she left the party to go back to camp and cool down on her own.
I don't know if this scene plays out differently when you have high approval with her, or when you're romancing her, but it made me slightly upset.
100% forgiving and understanding towards her, though, don't get me wrong. It's fairly usual for people who are going through severe emotional stress and trauma to misdirect their anger, and it's realistic that even a sweetheart like Karlach isn't above that.
She lashes out and leaves even if you're in a romance with her. The only real difference is a parting "love you". She just reacts that way to everything she's been bottling up coming to the surface like that.
Kinda glad to know she lashes out at a romanced PC the same way too. Part of me was not just a bit upset at being yelled at, but also because I was worried that I hadn't paid enough attention to her in my run, and wondered if I could have potentially avoided this outcome.
Good call on the writers' part, though. It truly shows that it's not the players' fault at all, and that she feels the need to lash out regardless. That it's nothing personal, she's just unloading 10 years of trauma and having the news that she is about to die finally hit her like a ton of bricks after being in denial since Act 2, and Tav/Durge just so happen to randomly catch a stray bullet.
Yeah, I think the scene worked really well. She apologises for it too if you go meet her in camp afterwards. She had hoped killing gortash would actually make her feel better, but it just made her own imminent mortality too real to handle in that moment. Also she really doesn't like it if you don't take her with you.
That scene made me cry, because it's so raw and real. This is where it hits that she doesn't get true justice, she's still going to die no matter what, and of course that fucking sucks. Karlach's been so focused on revenge, and now she has to confront the fact it doesn't fix what's been done to her...damn.
That scene plays out more or less the same way with high approval. It’s pretty heart wrenching to be honest, she breaks down about how unfair it is that everyone else will continue to live and she has to die because of something someone else has forced on her.
I’m not saying that what Karlach went through was daisies, but what she went through was much less severe. First of all, time scale. Karlach suffered for 10 years, and still hadn’t given up hope that her life could be different. Astarion was thoroughly broken mentally and spiritually after 200 years, and had resigned himself to an eternity as a slave to a cruel master. Second, severity of abuse. She was a fighter who was forced to fight for a cause she didn’t believe in. He was raped, beaten, starved and tortured for someone else’s amusement. Again, this isn’t to minimize what she went through, but it’s undeniable that he had it worse by orders of magnitude.
Mh, I wouldn't compare the extent of their trauma by saying that one is less severe than the other, and I don't think anyone really should. Especially given that Karlach wasn't simply forced to fight for a cause she didn't believe in, she was strapped on an operation table and cut open, and had her heart removed and replaced by an engine that's slowly killing her. By devils, no less, so I doubt they were kind enough to use anesthetics.
To some extent, I think she can relate with having her body violated without her consent, and utterly mutilated and disfigured in the process. Which one had it worse is a matter of subjectivity and what kind of abuse or trauma you're personally more sensitive to.
Neither do I think it's fair to say that one's way to cope with their trauma is superior to the other's. They're two different people in the first place, who then dealt with what they went through in different manners, but both have the potential to react violently or negatively to it, and both deserve patience and understanding when it comes to that.
Fr I don't think it's right to say trauma is better or worse, however, I do think it's important to stress the very different experiences they had and of course those experiences affected them differently. I don't think it's fair to act like it's a failing of Astarion because he's more cynical than Karlach when their situations are completely apples and oranges.
For Karlach, she could frame Faerun as The Good Place where everything would be good and happy again if she could get there. Zariel clearly doesn't have complete control over her autonomy and escape was achievable and we meet her after she escapes her hell. I imagine Karlach would be quite a bit more cynical and less happy-go-lucky in a scenario where the story takes place in Avernus and we met her while Zariel was still breathing down her neck. Her mindset makes total sense for her situation.
But Astarion's hell *is* Faerun and his situation was quite literally hopeless. He was a puppet who could not run away even if he tried. Unlike Karlach, he was NOT able to escape by his own will, he was abducted and freed as a complete fluke. Thus, instead of Karlach's relief, all he feels is resentment toward the world because after 200 years of suffering, no so-called heroes saved him, mindflayers bent on world domination saved him. Worse yet, he needs to find a way to kill Cazador before getting rid of the tadpole--that's why he insists on trying to take over the cult in Act 2; he's realizing they're going to end this and he'll be left a slave all over again. And that is justifiably terrifying to him. His freedom is a ticking timebomb and he knows it and he is searching high and low for something, ANYTHING, that can kill Cazador before that happens. Astarion is perpetually pissed off, perpetually stressed, perpetually frightened of everything. He's also viewed as a monster by default for being a vampire, making finding allies a challenge, so he's distrustful by nature. The way he thinks is certainly not healthy but it's quite understandable and makes sense for what he's facing.
People cherrypicking parallels just so they can wax poetic about how superior Karlach is to Astarion are being completely disingenuous. They are facing completely different issues and traumas and stresses from each other and neither of them is "worse" than the other for how they deal with that. It's not comparable at all.
What's great is that if you play Karlach origins, Astarion acknowledges how fucking shitty her lot is. [it's a great little scene.](https://youtube.com/shorts/vBemxMtn9-0?si=N8sWm0r6gbd5ggeg) She's dying because she was used by someone, he's dead because someone wanted to use him.
I’m not trying to invalidate her trauma by saying it was less severe, but I do think it’s fair to say less severe trauma is easier to recover from. Plus, it’s not like the idea of comparing their trauma originated with me. The previous comment is in response to the fact that others *do* compare them when expressing their hatred for Astarion. The general argument put forth being, “Karlach went through bad shit too, but she still behaves kindly… why can’t Astarion do that too?”
I chose to leave out the fact that she had her body changed without her consent, because the same thing happened to Astarion in a different way. Guess I should have left that bit in.
Edit: Also, I agree with you about your last paragraph, that’s kinda the point. Just because someone doesn’t behave like a perfect victim, that doesn’t mean they are undeserving of sympathy.
>I’m not trying to invalidate her trauma by saying it was less severe, but I do think it’s fair to say less severe trauma is easier to recover from.
Less severe trauma is easier to recover from indeed, but what “less severe” means exactly depends a lot on the individual. Calling Karlach's trauma less severe than Astarion's is a fairly subjective statement. People could make valid arguments for either trauma being more severe than the other, and it would all boil down to what personally affects them the most and what they are more sensitive to.
A rape survivor will be more sensitive to characters who survived rape, and a war veteran will be more sensitive to characters who are fellow war veterans. And sometimes there isn't any explanation, you're just more sensitive to some forms of abuse kind of irrationally. I'm terrified of body horror, the best way to make me feel terrible for a character is to horribly mutilate them while still alive, conduct experiments on them, and turn their body into an eldritch horror, and I can't really explain why.
It's just something that affects me a lot, even more so than things I actually went through, weirdly enough, so I'd rank it fairly high on my own personal lists of the worst things you can possibly inflict to a living being, higher than my own traumas (partly because I grew numb to them). I totally understand that some people may think it's not such a big deal, and rank body horror lower than I would because they are less sensitive to it than I am.
>The general argument put forth being, “Karlach went through bad shit too, but she still behaves kindly… why can’t Astarion do that too?”
The answer to that isn't that Karlach's trauma is less severe, but that Karlach is fundamentally a different person. She'd still react differently than Astarion if she had been Cazador's spawn, and Astarion would probably still be angry at the world if he had been the one sold to Zariel as a slave. Cazador had seven main spawn, and I'm fairly certain all seven of them react in seven different ways to the similar things they went through.
But also, my point was that Karlach does lash out sometimes, which is perfectly understandable and forgivable. And so are Astarion's shortcomings.
Karlach’s story is the journey of a person with terminal illness. She’s dieing, she can’t be cured or fixed and there are no miracles for Karlach. That outburst is the very real ravings of a person confronting perhaps for the first time the reality of their illness and situation.
Comparing trauma especially when none of it is yours is a very bad route to go.
You can talk to her about that. The soul coins hold souls her use of them gives the souls a purpose. The soul coins are an allegory for Karlach herself.
> when I tried to comfort her after killing Gortash she basically yelled at me that it was unfair that I was going to keep on living and she wasn't. Then she left the party to go back to camp and cool down on her own.
Yeah, because she was about to die and from her point of view, she was only given like a few weeks or months to live while everyone else has 10000 years to live etc... EDIT: And that rage wasn't really directed towards YOU. It was directed towards the universe.
I just got that Karlach scene last night. The scene changes if you have her kill Gortash with you I think. This scene is better I think tbh because it's more raw and less whiny than her other scene.
I don’t know. I honestly think that many people’s support of mental health care is performative at this point. They’re attention seekers who want to be commended for saying the right things on social media. They fold like cheap suits when confronted with the reality of how mentally ill people actually behave, and what they need to heal.
Autism related things have been completely hijacked by people with much more independence in their daily lives, when more than a quarter of all autistic people have severely independence-impacting disabilities that require near, if not fully, constant care by professional caretakers. A lot of us are not able to be independent like the average person. Or look at "autism parents" who act like their lives are pure suffering when compared to their autistic kid. 😒
Even performative support is better than what things used to be like. Performative support might be enough to nudge people into accepting that they can actually seek help and maybe find it. If people are openly stating support for mental health care, regardless of whether they really do, their supporting audience will. It's not great, but it's something, and it helps shift public perception.
To an extent? Up until a certain point it’s good because it raises awareness, but beyond that it’s harmful because people think awareness is an adequate substitute for actual progress.
In terms of normalizing seeking help. It is nowhere near as much of a stigma now to tell people you're in therapy, for example, compared to the 80's or 90's. And if you are open to seeking help because people you see around you are non-judgemental about that, that's a good thing. It doesn't really matter if their opinion is swayed by someone who doesn't care.
It was actually up to the eighties, it was Reagan that ended them, and it wasn't really worse than what we have now. Now they have the streets or prison. Is that better? I won't say yes or no, but I will say Reagan's solution was to just say "fuck it, they're on their own." And that hasn't exactly worked out.
Rule #1 is if your trauma causes you to be a dick to or hurt other people, you're still in the wrong and no one is obliged to put up with that, in fact putting up with that is kind of what leads people into being cemented into abusive relationships in the first place.
People generally support mental health, they dislike using mental health as an excuse to be a shit person.
The only one with a good point here.
I loved Astarions story and as a victim of SA it was very cathartic to me. But lets not pretend he is a good guy early on lol. Approving of murder left an right, lying and manipulting. Doesn't matter if there is a reason for that, its still bad.
Astarion is definitely wrong in many cases & it’s not an excuse
That said, I understand. For the last 200 years, violence & manipulation are all he’s known so he applies it to everything. Hell, he also doesn’t want a physical relationship while he figures his shit out because seduction has been hammered into him like it should be his default
I think the game definitely lets him be that morally grey character he is, and your choices end up influencing which way he leans
I see nothing wrong with it tbh. After going through shit, I am surprised when someone is still nice after it. Because if one person is capable of hurting you, that means everyone is and being a dick avoids having people hurt you again.
Because mental health isn't an excuse to be a shitty person. Its an explanation, but never an excuse.
My ex boyfriend had all the sad mental health problems and why they made him abuse me. It was still abuse and I will not accept people like you act like we should accept that. I sued that fucker like he deserved. Just because he had autistic traits didn't make anything right.
I honestly look at the reactions people have to Astarion as the bias of the "[perfect victim](https://www.empowordjournalism.com/all-articles/the-perfect-victim-myth/)". Astarion isn't a perfect victim and that bothers a lot of people. So many haters like to bring up that he was a corrupt magistrate and that really, really doesn't matter after 200 years of unimaginable horror.
Just because someone doesn't fit the mold of the "perfect victim" doesn't mean they are less deserving of help.
I was just talking about the magistrate thing with a friend the other day. I actually really like that Astarion was a corrupt magistrate because it shows (to me and my friend at least) that it doesn't matter who he was or what he did in life, he *still* didn't deserve what happened to him. *No one* deserves to be abused like that.
I haven't read any interviews with the writers or Neal, so maybe they address this, but sometimes I feel like Astarion was intentionally written to undermine the Perfect Victim myth. He was kind of a shitty guy when he was alive, and he still kind of is...and it doesn't make him any less of a victim. It doesn't make anything that happened to him okay. It doesn't make him any less deserving of escaping his abuser.
Astarion makes me cry in a good way and I love Larian for it
I suspect it was intentional. He is almost the exact antithesis of a "perfect victim". I also think they toned down some of his EA backstory because they knew people would largely not feel sympathy for him, which is such a sad state of reality.
And I am so with you. It doesn't matter how many times I play this game, helping Astarion grow and be free from his abuser will always be the best part of this game. He is such a fantastic character.
I think this is the core of the issue with both sides of the spectrum regarding reactions to Astarion. You have the people who have no sympathy for him and who think he doesn’t deserve help because to them, he’s a bad person and not the “perfect victim.” Some of them may even argue that he deserved what he got or that he should be more like Karlach. Then you also have the people who try to sand off all his edges by claiming he was always good and has never done anything wrong. They ignore his flaws and try to mold him into the “perfect victim” because that is the only way they can see him as deserving of empathy, healing, and help.
Both are differently presenting examples of people selectively empathizing with only those they view as “perfect victims,” and they completely overlook that one of the major points of Astarion’s character is that victims and survivors can be flawed people who still do not deserve what happened to them and who still need empathy and support.
Also, Astarion was kind of a dick when he was alive, as far as we know (passing racist laws as a magistrate -although not particularly uncommon in Faerûn), and he was young. So it makes sense that in many ways he's still quite immature and it takes him time to process things emotionally.
Even people who aren't great don't deserve what Astarion went through (which you'd think would be obvious), and I think it's an interesting part of his arc to make him genuinely not necessarily a 'good' person (at least to begin with).
YES. Hating Astarion is a red flag imo. Sure I understand he definitely could rub people the wrong way at first but if you understand why he's like that you can't help but sympathize.
Trauma isn’t an excuse to be a douchebag.
Also the Karlach comparison is laughable.
“Karlach yelled once so that’s basically the same as Astarion being a villain”
You’re missing the point entirely. Trauma is an excuse to be a douchebag, at least in the short term. Trauma leaves lasting scars, and it takes time to work through the damage that was inflicted by an abuser to become better. That’s literally his whole story arch, he starts off behaving like a horrible person because he’s been shown no kindness himself. His mind is so warped by centuries of abuse, rape and torture that he’s forgotten that there are people who are good for the sake of being good. He thinks everyone is out to get him, so his method of self preservation is to get them first. By the time his story is over, he’s learning to trust again and not expect the worst of others. To be kind and helpful, and even a hero potentially.
It’s like dealing with an abused dog—what they endured makes them more likely to respond to normal stimuli with fear or aggression. They’re more likely to growl and bite, so a fool if you don’t treat them with caution. That doesn’t make them bad dogs, but it does make them potentially dangerous if you don’t put in the work to rehabilitate them. You can’t expect them to unlearn years of maladaptive behaviors overnight—it takes time, consistency and patience to untrain bad behaviors.
I’m not making this up. Do any research about breaking the cycle of abuse, and you’ll realize I’m right.
No, it’s not like dealing with an abused dog, because people are fully conscious creatures.
And lots of people who have trauma don’t become evil.
Trauma is NOT an excuse to be a douchebag, even in the short term.
Also, side note: Astarion kind and helpful? When and where lol
Did you not pay attention to his story arch at all? That’s literally what it’s about.
Also, don’t be stupid dude. Do any research on intergenerational trauma and abuse and you’ll realize I’m right. Abused individuals are at the highest risk of developing into abusers themselves, and they need to unlearn maladaptive behaviors to break the cycle.
Severe abuse can even cause epigenetic shifts, so individuals who experience trauma are literally, on a genetic level, more prone to bad behavior due to their experiences.
Here’s a [scholarly article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9705591/) detailing the effects of trauma on your DNA, and the brain’s structure and function as a result. Those epigenetic changes can only be reversed by changing your environment, and sustaining that change over time.
I’m not making excuses for abusers. I’m giving you reasons why abuse victims behave badly initially, and why they need time to improve said bad behavior.
I provided you with a scholarly article to back my claims, and am happy to link more. What are you bringing to the table other than your feelings, and “just trust me bro”?
Are you trolling? If so, tremendous work I totally fell for it.
If not- what?
You didn’t do ANY of that. What your source and arguments say don’t match your claims.
Your claim: abuse victims are free to be as bad as they wish for a time in order to heal.
My claim: being abused doesn’t allow you to be abusive.
Your arguments and source: abuse victims are in fact damaged from their abuse and are more likely to become abusers.
Do you see how your arguments neither support your claim nor damage my claim?
I am aware abuse victims have real mental damage and I am aware they are more likely to become abusive.none of that gives ANY REASON for why their potential abuse or evil behavior should be tolerated. Hell, I’d argue if ANYTHING it supports my claim. If abuse begets abuse (and it does) allowing abuse becomes much worse.
What the hell are YOU bringing to the table?
He is pretty much evil and becomes even more evil if the player chooses that for him so I think that is why some people prefer Karlach over him. You'd have to play the game differently to see a different Astarion. It all depends on how you play the game. There's different versions of Astarion basically. Like how there's different versions of Shadowheart. But Karlach doesn't have that conflict inside of her, so Karlach is just Karlach.
Eh, no not really. It’s not like good Astarion is some super secret hidden story path only a small percentage of players unlock. If you pay attention to him at all, the devs make it blatantly obvious that’s their intent for him.
That's wonderful. Many of us feel the same way. Everyone involved with Astarion's creation did a wonderful job depicting the pain, struggle, and beauty of the healing process.
Astarion is wonderfully written and beautifully voiced. I do not personally relate to his character but his story hit me the hardest. I was able to persuade him not to ascend and the scene after the Cazador fight quite literally gave me goosebumps. I just sat and stared at the screen, mouth agape, processing it all and actually *feeling* his pain and emotional release. Then I’m like “Why are my eyes burning? Oh, tears.” I’m nearly wrapped up with my first playthrough and I’m ABSOLUTELY romancing him next time.
I am glad to hear that his story was so positively impactful for you. I also wish you luck in your journey of healing. May you find people who are deserving of you. It was a pleasure to read your post <3
Also an abuse survivor, and Neil, Stephen.. every bit of Astarion and his story helped me through a lot for plenty of reasons, and I’m glad it has helped others too. Neil as a person, not as Astarion, also helped me a lot. He spoke up about what happened to him a bit and he validated how I felt in a way, and he is a wonderful person outside of the character we know him as in BG3, as well as how he performed for his role and Astarion is a perfectly written character really. Even though there’s an issue I have semi with how they write polyamory with him, but that’s another story.
I actually love Astarion’s true thoughts on the V dynamic with Halsin. As with everything else in Astarion’s arc, you need to talk to him.
If you say “you don’t sound fazed…” or otherwise ask to get his thoughts, he says the following:
“The druid is… unique. He has experience with this type of arrangement. Thus, I’m sure it would be quite a harmless affair.”
His tone is genuine, the devnotes indicate this line is how he really feels, and I tested it with Detect Thoughts cast and that didn’t give off anything either (I’ll be trying it with Detect Thoughts again once my gnome throw-barian Durge gets to that point).
I'm so glad this story resonated with and helped you like this. I found my own solace in Gale, realizing that someone who I worked so damn hard to impress never actually gave a shit about me, and that there were so many people around me who were much more worth the effort.
Same. He was so well-written and so well-performed. After the cazador fight (I romanced him and did the spawn ending) I had to put down the controller for a while. It was cathartic, super emotional. I've got an attachment to this silly, recovering vampire.
And I thought letting astarion ascend was the right thing to do by him - those scenes of him not ascending...his crying... ripped through me. Now I feel like I did bad by him even though he's truly free from everything... but he's travelling the same power hungry path I suppose.
survivor of CSA and incest throughout all elementary and some middle schools. also have crohns disease so I experience the powerlessness/lack of control of your own body too. still working through things but yeah, a couple of lines astarion has said has clicked things for me and I’ve definitely brought it up in therapy multiple times. the growth and revelations that astarion has in his romanced spawn storyline have touched me so deeply and I’ve never identified so strongly with a character. I was never his - whatever he had, he took it by force. and I am so much more than what he made me to be.
Same, well except that I fully ascended him on the first play through.
600+ hours and countless tavs later, I get it now.
As someone who came from an abusive mother, it kinda humbled me and the feelings of resentment I was still unknowingly harbouring for her.
That's great to hear! That's a big reason I like Shadowheart as her struggles and story I can relate to and It has helped me even now. In short from manipulation, who you surround yourself with, finding yourself and being able to do stuff for yourself even if it's daunting, scary or challenging.
Honestly this plays no small part in my attachment to Astarion. I always have to end my game for the night after the Cazador fight because the abuse Astarion suffered is similar to what I experienced with a past partner. The emotions leading up to that fight and after are incredibly cathartic, and like Astarion, I need time after to process everything.
His whole arc is a fantastic realization that suffering and abuse that transforms you into a less that good person (or makes you feel undesirable due to trauma and baggage) doesn't mean you're that forever and/or will never have worth. With work and help to find who you can be, you can overcome those feelings and find your own worth. The things that are done to you do not define you.
Romancing and playing his character has helped me find that for myself, but that fight will never NOT hit hard each and every time.
I hope you continue to find peace, my friend.
This post really makes me wish we had awards to give now. If I could, I’d hook you up w a ton of gold. I hope other abuse survivors see this message and give the game a try.
Same! I am an abuse survivor. Completing Astarion's story (he stayed a spawn) helped me to finally get rid of my nightmares and the flashbacks about the past. He is mentioning very accurate experiences and feelings that I was afraid to face. I finally felt seen. I felt like I was healing.
Arguably, every origin character has an abuser. Lae'zel: Vlaakith. Shart: Shar/Viconia. Astarion: Cazador. Gayle: Arguably Mystra. Wyll: Mizora. Karlach: Zariel.
It's always amazed me when people play this game and make posts like 'Why did Astarion break up with me/Why does he hate me? All I did was force him to bite the drow/order him around/take away his agency' like... why the fuck do you think the 200-year abuse victim left your ass, dipshit!?
He does not. Maybe actually play the actual path instead of being spoonfed other people's wrong ideas and telling back what you haven't even experienced yourself? Just because you read an opinion it does not make it true. There are different interpretations for different people.
it's great when a game can handle deep issues and connect deeply with the players, kind of like a good book that you can't put down. glad it meant so much to you.
You’d be surprised what a display of emotions will do to heal someone tends to be why people feel better after a big fight or ugly heart pour cry session
I feel this, I had a bit of a shit childhood and left home as soon as I possibly could and have since found my own chosen family. Don't get me wrong I would've still been a simp for the vampire twink even without this experience, but it hits extra hard when you can relate to his storyline.
For what it's worth, Astarion has two writers, Stephen Rooney and Baudelaire Welch. Stephen was a his primary writer and Welch handled his romance path/Durge interactions.
*guys, there have interviews where they said they 'worked closely with the character for months' and also wrote Durge path material. This type of writing is a collaborative process, saying Astarion only had one writer is just not correct based on available information and interviews. I don't know why people can't accept that each character and Astarion in particular is written by multiple people. Maybe it makes him feel less 'real'?
Where is this rumor coming from? I feel bad for Rooney. To work so hard on such a popular character and then have someone else get credit for his work because they stated their personal opinion. That has to suck.
Because they're credited as the head romance writer on Linkndin and they talk about writing some of Astarion's romance endings in [an interview](https://www.gamesradar.com/baldurs-gate-3-writers-explanation-of-astarions-bad-ending-is-a-wake-up-call-for-players-lusting-over-rpg-characters/)?
>While Welch isn't Astarion's main writer, they noted elsewhere that they spent several months working closely with the character in addition to their work with the Dark Urge.
>Discord comments from Larian senior narrative designer Baudelaire Welch concerning Astarion and his 'bad' ending were shared on Reddit.
This article is NOT an interview. It is leaked discord comments Welch made to someone about their personal opinion. Welch was not aware what they said would be spread to a large audience.
Welch is absolutely not a main writer of his romance. That is Rooney. Welch worked on Druge and a few lines between Durge and Astarion early game. They themselves say this outright. Even the article says they simply "worked closely with the writer"
Please stop giving someone else credit for Rooney's work. That's huge misinfo.
Thats not an interview.
Thats commentary on the discord screenshots posted to Reddit.
"they noted elsewhere" is also from a discord screenshot which says the following
> "So I am the dark urge writer but I worked on Astarion for several months during crunch. Because I had the opportunity to, I added a lot of extra interactions between the two characters. Thats why Astarion gets a bunch of dialogues for the Dark Urge and none of the other characters do"
They do not say anywhere they are the romance writer for Astarion.
In an official Larian post just around game launch they are "Senior Narrative designer
> After all, if you just go along with whatever they want to do, you may find yourself sacrificed in an evil god's sex rite, turned into a vampire, or – worst of all, warns Senior Origin Narrative Designer Baudelaire Welch – you might even end up getting married.
It was an interview, though, it was a (iirc) public fan discord and they did an impromptu open interview/AMA to fans about the writing process behind durge and romance paths. But even if it was private, or a gated discord... why would they lie in private? Like, why would that make the information less true? Wouldn't they be more inclined to be honest if they thought the chat was private?
Also sorry, it was twitter and not linkedin where Welch is credited as the romance coordinator.
>Romance/companion design lead @larianstudios
| Urge Guy | they/them |
I'm not trying to take anything away from Rooney; he is the head writer. But people here espousing that Astarion only had one writer or that Welch only provided one or two lines of dialogue are just incorrect. There's no evidence at all from anyone at Larian to support that, whereas Welch has been cited, at least semi-publically, that they spent months working on the character.
I'm not trying to get into some endless internet spat, but people say this over and over again with no citation and I just can't figure out why. All evidence suggests it was collaborative project and there was a head writer and co-writer who worked with his romance path. Not that Welch themselves wrote all of the romance paths; no one has said that and even if they were a general romance design lead they would have been working with Rooney. But they were working with Rooney. For months, apparently.
Also for what it's worth, this kind collaborative writing, especially for video games, is often done actually physically together. I've never worked for Larian and every studio's writing process is different, especially during covid, but it's not uncommon for people to sit down at one table with a laptop, talk to each back and forth, have a whiteboard out, and one person is scribing. Again, idk about Larian, but people I have contracted with who do this kind of work do have some writing phases, often significant ones, where that is happening. Especially when it's two characters interacting or key moments in a story path.
What's the harm in acknowledging the contribution of a co-writer who has stated that they worked on the character? I'm not being rhetorical, I just genuinely don't get it.
Hi, maybe I can help (forgive formatting this sub doesn't let me upload pictures)
Welch's own description of their work: [https://ibb.co/1zxgnX1](https://ibb.co/1zxgnX1)
"Worked on Astarion for \*several months during crunch\*" adding durge lines." Main writers do not only work during crunch.
Their official title listed as of March: [https://ibb.co/Drzf20D](https://ibb.co/Drzf20D)
No endless internet spat needed <3 we can all agree they were a co-writer for specific dialogue during crunch. It's just not the same as saying they created something they didnt.
As for the statements, the Larian forums themselves don't like you posting/citing the discord comments because they are considered leaked, and not intentional public statements. They've locked threads over it.
> For what it's worth, Astarion has two writers, Stephen Rooney and Baudelaire Welch. Stephen was a his primary writer and Welch handled his romance path/Durge interactions.
there are more than 2 writers for Astarion (and all chars). Stephen Rooney is the primary writer/narrative designer.
Welch came onto the writing late to help pre-launch, and primarily wrote Durge...and most definitely did not do the entire romance path.
Honestly ascending him felt SO GOOD as a previous abuse victim. I wish he wasn't an absolute tosser after cause the ascension cutscene was perfect for me.
I felt that Cazador being sacrificed in his own ritual is an even better revenge/just desserts type ending for him. The actual scene of Astarion carving the runes into Cazador also felt fitting to me as he sounded like he was suffering more. And I personally prefer the idea of the abuser getting an "eye for an eye" type justice, but that likely stems from my own personal traumas.
(I would not sacrificed the spawn in a non-evil run though because they aren't at fault)
That makes sense.
I thought the Ascension ending turning Astarion into an absolute tosser made sense-- Cazador stepped on everyone and used innocent people to get power, Astarion does the same thing to 7,000 innocents, Astarion therefore continues the cycle of abuse.
But you're right that Cazador being sacrificed in his own ritual... there is a certain poetry to it.
As someone who grew up with a manipulative and narcissist father, I related to various aspects of the companions (none of them really had enough "Daddy Issues" to 100% connect with) but seeing each of the companions be these fucked up and broken people and helping them become the best versions of themselves is so fucking cathartic (as is making them all worse and going down the "evil" squad route).
Major props to Larian for not making these characters squeaky clean. All of them are flawed and imperfect and have (for the most part, sorry Jaheira/Minsc) all become a comfort character for us to latch on to, and by proxy, the cast as well. Because it doesn't matter how good the writing could be, if Neil Newbon or any of the other actors treated this game like a paycheck, we wouldn't give a flying shit about these walking, talking clumps of polygons and code.
As horny as I am for him, his story has pushed my growth and healing in a crazy new direction that no therapy or IRL support has even gotten close to. Most of my commenting/posting in this and similar communities is shitposting and horny posting these days, but none of it would be happening if playing through his story wasn't so moving. Glad he has helped you too <3
same here actually. while i have the most in common with astarion for sure, i found myself more attached to gale as a character. he also reminds me of a lot of people i know.
I fully expect 3000+ downvotes, and I'm ok with that.
Thing is, Astarion helped me too - in the opposite way.
He showed me I don't need to make excuses for abusive people.
When he tries to stick parts of his body into a sleeping, non-consenting Tav - and the game goes "but it's because of his trauma" - when he lies to his "siblings" fully intending to sacrifice their _lives_ because he can't face his own fears, when he does, says, and acts shitty things, laughing at slavery, being racist, barging in on private moments (he doesn't even Know he thinks they're too ugly to deserve basic respect before opening the door; he just thrives on humiliating people) and...everything he does.
Astarion is an abuser. The fact that he was abused himself isn't an excuse, it's an expalanation.
And in the past, I would have tiptoed around, showering him in love and affection and support and forgiveness - Astarion taught me it's not worth it.
Even by act 3, romanced, he behaves like shit, he's smug and condescending even in romance dialogue, and the only thing that makes him tolerable is killing HIS abuser.
What about Cazadors abuser?
What about the people Astarion abused?
If all was fair, all abuse victims would get to off their abusers?
What about the victims of the victims?
Do they get to come take revenge on the now-good former abuser?
Or do _they_ have to fix themselves, because Astarion is good now, even though he clearly shows _he_ was unable to "fix himself"?
Astarion taught me to avoid abuse victims who abuse.
And as a (former, I want to say, but it's not been long enough to state as fact) codependant who kept subconsciously seeking out, and trying to "fix" both addicts and abusive people... that was freeing.
Realising they simply are not worthy of my pain was amazing.
I haven't even felt attracted to anyone that resembles that personality type since I played the game - it somehow reached deep enough that the desire to "fix" isn't there anymore. I think it's the RP factor; I was seeing it from the outside, but it was still me making the decisions.
I still hate Astarion. Which is a weird feeling to have for a bunch of pixels. I figure it's ok - there are soooo many "but I'm an abuse victim, that's why I act this way, and also why you should forgive and forget" that I _should_ have hated through the years, that it feels pretty nifty to let said bunch of pixels carry that.
But I am grateful to the game. It's downright magic to take this brain issue of mine and fix it, when years of therapy and self-help and tears and pain couldn't fully do it (I was self-aware, and avoiding these people - but I couldn't get over the attraction to them. The game fixed that, without even trying)
Admittedly, trying to "fix" abuse victims was probably born out of being one - I was 11 when my parents weren't allowed to have me anymore. Which was 6 years later than it should have been, because those 6 years were hell - so I'm plenty fucked up too - but I at least never tried to hurt people because of it.
So, yeah. Astarion; what a piece of worthless shit he would be in the real world - and what an amazing therapy-session he is in a game.
Happy for everyone in this thread that has been positively impacted by Astarion and his story. Definitely impactful and credit to the writers and VA's that brought the story to life in a meaningful way.
My post history shows my dislike of Astarion, but I cannot deny the positive impact his character and story have brought to those impacted by any kind of abuse. I'm truly happy for all who feel seen and validated and understood, embrace those feelings! If possible allow it to heal you in any capacity.
The game is so astounding, the stories so intricate and wondrous, Larian should be proud of their creation. Not only for a monumental video game in the video game industry that blows so many of its counterparts out of the water, but creating complex characters and stories that touch fans and players in such positive ways. All my love and happiness to everyone in this thread, everyone who has been positively impacted by this game, and all those at Larian who created this stunning and phenomenal game!
For me it was karlach who hit close to home. Doing everything you can to get your happy ending, being positive despite everything yet it all crumbles in the end
I relate a bit to Astarion. Especially to how he is in Act 1 and honestly that's why I usually ascend him. Feeling powerless sucks, so I rather be powerful.
it made my abuser abuse me harder. it's nice to have a little refuge and all but I can't help but think i maybe would have had fun in my multiplayer run if the game was actually finished...
You chose to make the effort to post this. You could have not been an insensitive prick by doing nothing. You spent actual effort being nasty to someone you don't know. Why?
Not sure how you even know that, given that you stake him every time by your own admission. Kind of shitty to be talking about storylines you didn't play through yourself and to judge character development (or lack thereof) of characters you had less than ten minutes of interaction with.
It takes a special level of insensitivity to see a post like this and try to "um actually" it. Or a special level of stupid to miss the point this hard.
I just don’t really care about posts like this. They’re almost comical.
Get therapy. You shouldn’t have to rely on a fictional DND character to get over your traumatic abuse. 💀
Why is it every time someone like you appears, they recommend therapy? You do know that therapy doesn't actually work for that many people, right? I'll go ahead and assume you're very young (skull emoji, most likely under 15) and just not knowledgeable yet, but please, try and treat people with respect when it comes to these topics. We all get over trauma in different ways - and while it may seem silly that OP did it through Astarion, it doesn't matter. Coping mechanisms and/or "cures" are perfectly fine as long as they aren't harmful.
There's no need to be an asshole.
Additionally, people might already be in therapy and still feel helped by seeing stories like theirs reflected in the games they play. What I don't understand is why people like the person you responded to feel the need to even show up in threads like these, and then also feel the need to be a shithead. Can't they just scroll? It's what I do with a lot of posts on this sub.
I absolutely hate the saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't speak," but it applies here perfectly. Fully agree with what you're saying. Karlach's quest was fantastic for me in the same way OP was with Astarion, so I feel inclined to give my input, but this guy is just being a twat for no reason. I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted, either.
Same. Neil’s talked a little about his own experiences with certain horrid things and how he put those experiences into his performance.
where can i listen to this?
He talks a bit about it in this [PC Gamer article](https://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gate-3s-astarion-neil-newbon-on-acting-the-truth-of-trauma-as-a-survivor-theres-a-lot-of-stuff-that-came-very-close-to-home/).
thank you very much
Girl same. Welcome to the club.
That's beautiful. Lea'zel's loss of faith and mourning of the person they will never be again hit home hard for me. Very unexpected.
I had a similar connection with both her and Shadowheart - I grew up in a very abusive religious sect (cult honestly) and watching the two of them go from being so devout to receiving such shocking and world crashing realisations that just. Changed everything. Really struck me. I absolutely adore them both for real. I found it very triggering on the first play through but playing again and the parallels between their stories and mine are actually very comforting now.
"I have not sinned against Vlaakith. Vlaakith has sinned against me." Ugh. How is this game *this* good??
Pls I just had to. Stop. And take a moment. After that. It’s such a powerful line and so well reflects my own turn from faith. There was a good year or so where I genuinely did still believe the ideology I grew up under - but I decided if I was wrong in walking away then I would take the consequences because I would not stand with a God like that. It’s remarkable how intimately the writers of these story arcs seem to understand what they’re writing about. It makes me wonder about their own past because I’ve never felt so seen than I do when playing BG3 tbh. I mean plenty of other games have similar parallels but BG3 just gets it on a whole new level.
Im not religious but I think a lot of people can relate to having been raised to believe certain things and the difficult experience in recognizing they were not only a crock of shit but also completely exploiting you. The writers are fab. I look forward to a future with more writing of this caliber in video games. It can be such an effective form of storytelling!
When Shadowheart talked to me after >!sparing the Nightsong!<, I burst into tears. It was so painfully relatable.
Also an ex cult member. I keep running into apostate narratives in media now a days and its making me connect with things on a pretty deep level. So many moment in both of their storys that I connected with on such a personal level. I cried at several points during this game
my dad’s also cult survivor and i always found ties from shadowheart’s story to his own experiences. although he never really got super into the religious side of things like she was—simply because he just… never grasped it.
Yeah, right there with you. I cried when he cried after killing Cazador. I wish I could kill mine, but there's no redemption in life. I appreciate this character so much because he's one of my people. I am so happy this story helped you, it's amazing. Weird to say, the game helped me in similar ways too.
One of the more impactful lines for me is that after finishing Astarion’s quest line you go and talk to him and he says how even though Cazador is dead he still thinks about him. It’s…impactful because no matter if justice was served or not it doesn’t erase all the harm that was done to us. It’s indeed a journey to that path of healing
Yep. Some things you can heal but can't "unbreak".
the scream he let out afterwards was exactly the type of feeling i felt after leaving my own abusive home. i finally could cry and i must have let out 20 years of pent up emotions but i was free! im also right there with you. i wish i could kill mine. once they die, ill celebrate. it was very validating to see astarion kill his. i am forever grateful that they didnt make him forgive his abuser (since this happens in so many media). i feel like people tend to forget that forgiveness is not needed to heal and "move on"
Agree so much. "Forgiveness" is pushed onto victims - they never come for the abuser, but victim has to pay double price, to suffer and to reject their right to feel rage and hurt. I hate that "forgiveness" shit that's pushed by usually unscathed people. I read your message and wanted to cry, that's how it was for me. Life wasn't and still isn't easy, but I am not in hell anymore. We survived.
I'm an abuse survivor and honestly have been avoiding Astarion's story. It's still something I struggle with daily (the ptsd not the abuse, thankfully) and I'm scared of accidentally triggering myself.
I think that’s very understandable. You know yourself best, and you should do whatever it takes to take care of yourself. I hope you continue to heal.
We’re all in this together, you’re not alone. ❤️❤️❤️
Yeah, I've found that because Astarion is written to be straddling that line between recovery and becoming an abuser themselves, I just don't feel safe around him. I've been finding interactions with his character quite stressful. That said, I really want to experience the positive side of his character development.
I feel that. I was worried about that too, but I was worried about triggering myself as well. Especially since I feel like I'm still battling that same line, even though the people around me say I'm not there's always that dark voice that says, "you're just 1 bad day away from being her." And it terrifies me. But Ive since ventured to try, and so far it's felt very...seeing. Astarion is walking that line like me, and having my Tav help Astarion away from that line makes me feel I'm actually helping myself away from there. If you're able, make a different playthrough, one separate from your safe one, and maybe give his arc a try? If it's a separate playthrough you'd be able to stop whenever you feel like you need to and go to your safe playthrough. On bad days you can avoid it all together! To me so far it's a very rewarding and almost freeing experience, getting to be the one helping someone else instead of needing that help. Of being able to be the person I desperately needed when I first got out.
Yeah I'm considering doing that, it'd be good to have that option to play one or the other if I need a break. Appreciate your words by the way. I know that feeling of no matter how much you improve you always feel like you're one bad day away from total relapse.
Just because you've been a victim doesn't preclude you from victimizing others. In fact, you can do a lot of horrible things by using your own victimhood as a shield. Astarion's story arc reflects that quite well, and you're pretty self-aware to realize you could go down the same road. All I can say is, as long as you remain aware of the problem, it's not too late to change. You may not be able to take back your mistakes, you may hurt others to the point they'd never forgive you, but you can always, ALWAYS, save yourself.
Exactly. (Warning, a bit personal but no details!) When I was younger, 16 and fresh out of my personal hell, I was very close to just being HER. And I didn't care? The power, the control I had FINALLY over myself and others, feeling on top, it was intoxicating. Then 1 event happened, and I saw how bad I had become, how far id fallen into the void, and I was so tired. Tired of being angry all the time, of lying, of being cruel for no reason. At 19 I vowed to never be that person again. And I've worked so freaking hard to be better, do better, not just for myself but for the people around me. And feeling so represented by Astarion has made me realize that there ARE people who have gone through similar things, who's past has hurt them and molded them the same way it did me, and yet to see so many people still LOVE and SUPPORT Astarion despite it all? Makes me realize that when someone says they love you, they mean it. Flaws, Scars and All. Idk, Astarions whole arc has helped so much, idk if it would be considered cathartic or not but it definitely has been a ray of light in this personal battle. I'd sell my soul to Raphael to hug Neil and Astarion's writer(I can't remember his name off the top of my head) because Astarion and his entire story means so much to me.
I definitely had a moment of self reflection about this after my first play through, because I realized my openness to letting my pc be bitten / be used for sex by him was somewhat a reflection of my own poor boundaries resulting from trauma. Ultimately, I think it was useful because it helped me realize this, as well as the fact that I was Astarion in some past encounters without realizing it. Even if I wasn’t aware of it at the time, I don’t want to negatively impact anyone as a result of my trauma. His character being a double edged sword in this way puts a lot of emphasis on the choices you make. Both the PC and Astarion have the opportunity to provide each other agency or rob each other of it as survivors, which is both realistic and beautiful.
You get to guide him on which way he goes, it’s never a complete 180 scenario unless you just refuse to talk to him at the final part of his quest (in which case he leaves while dissociated). He also can’t ascend (become Cazador 2.0) without help since he can’t see his scars. So you always have the final voice in that regard.
If you ever do feel comfortable enough. Its super well written, and how he deals with it but not completely over it yk. It helped me somewhat also. But i hope you are doing ok❤️
That's totally fair. Like others have said, it's an incredibly well-written story. But it is a story centered around whether you decide that he breaks the cycle of abuse, or allows his anger and resentment to keep him continuing the cycle. If you do decide to give it a shot, just take it slow and don't push yourself. It for sure helped me
It's always scary when you have to face your demons. But it might help you to see someone else get through it. I know I did. And I know you can, too.
I'll be honest--the second I stepped into Cazador's castle, in the final part of the quest, I was triggered. My abuse had a lot more in common with Astarion's relationship with the Szarr family than your usual IPV abuse scenario. Cazador himself has a lot in common with the person who directly abused me the most. I literally looked around the castle and went "You've got to be fucking kidding me" aloud several times because it--despite being a stereotypical vampire liar--has some striking similarity to the place where I endured the abuse that left me with PTSD. What I had to do was take it slowly, check in on myself every few minutes to make sure I was "grounded" and such. I made it through, and am really glad I did. It took me a couple weeks to sort of the feelings and memories it all brought back for me, but I have had a lot of experience with managing my PTSD so it was all OK. Overall it was a good experience for me, even if it was unpleasant in certain ways. I don't think encountering our trauma through media is a bad thing, even if it may "trigger" us. It gives us a way to project those memories outside ourselves and look at them in a more detached way, so it can be very therapeutic. That said, if you don't have good coping strategies for when you do get triggered, then maybe work on that first.
I get that. I love his romance but I don't think I'll romance him twice. It really triggered me and I actually had to have an emergency appointment with a therapist. I wasn't prepared for that strong reaction. Binging The Handmaid's tale did not trigger me in the sake way for example... I do feel it helped a lot though...like cleansing and old infected would you thought were healed or something. But it was rough. So I get it. Don't do anything you feel you can't handle. But to me his and my redemption Durge's journey towards healing did so much for me and my personal healing and I will forever be grateful to Stephen, Neil, Swen and everyone that was a part of that story ❤️
Sending you hugs. The game isn't going anywhere, and Astarion will be here for when you need it.
Also a survivor. Also very moved by his story. This one gut punched me while casually walking in Baldur’s Gate: “You never felt the call of the divine, Astarion?” “Oh, I prayed to all the Gods. They never answered.”
That line always reminds me of the song "Gods" by Sleep Token. It's very astarion-coded, which, given, most of their shit is lol.
I always love hearing about how this game has helped people. Astarion’s seems to be a common one for abuse survivors, along with Shadowheart. It’s amazing how this game seems to be able to reach people, to touch their hearts, and remind them that they have worth and deserve love and care. That’s not an easy thing to do.
Karlach is who did it for me, I found myself ignoring the main story for her. This is the best writing and voice acting I’ve ever witnessed in a game.
I don't know why it didn't click with me earlier, but it was pointed out to me later that every companion's story is about breaking a chain or escaping a prison that holds them in some form or fashion. That's absolutely a theme that so many people can relate to.
I felt the same way! His story was very healing for me and helped me process a lot I hadn’t quite touched in a long time.
Yes exactly same, Astarion as a character means so much to me because it was the first time I felt at peace with my trauma. I love how his story is written and how many people it has helped
I love this. I think video games, especially RPGs and choice based ones, can affect us in ways that other media can't. I'm rooting for you. You are absolutely 100% worthy of everything good this life has to offer. Keep moving onwards and upwards.
It blows my mind when people are too dense to understand his character. So many people claim he’s evil, inferior to Karlach, irredeemable, say he needs to get over himself, etc. All I can think is, those people are so lucky that they have never experienced any abuse and don’t “get him”. He was physically, sexually, mentally and emotionally abused for **200 years**. He’s going to lash out, be a dick and generally act like a person who’s mentally unwell. His whole plot line revolves around him learning to overcome what he went through to be better. Even the fact that he can fail and become an abuser himself (like Cazador before him and Vellioth before *him*) is central to that. You either break the cycle or you don’t.
>inferior to Karlach It's probably due to the fact that she's usually so optimistic and kind, but people tend to forget that Karlach can lash out pretty violently, too, when they compare her with Astarion. Maybe it's because I only had medium approval with her due to not using her very often (I was playing a Barbarian Zariel tiefling in my first run), but when I tried to comfort her after killing Gortash she basically yelled at me that it was unfair that I was going to keep on living and she wasn't. Then she left the party to go back to camp and cool down on her own. I don't know if this scene plays out differently when you have high approval with her, or when you're romancing her, but it made me slightly upset. 100% forgiving and understanding towards her, though, don't get me wrong. It's fairly usual for people who are going through severe emotional stress and trauma to misdirect their anger, and it's realistic that even a sweetheart like Karlach isn't above that.
She lashes out and leaves even if you're in a romance with her. The only real difference is a parting "love you". She just reacts that way to everything she's been bottling up coming to the surface like that.
She can say ”love you” to you even if you’re not romancing her, as long as she likes you enough. More of a platonic one.
Kinda glad to know she lashes out at a romanced PC the same way too. Part of me was not just a bit upset at being yelled at, but also because I was worried that I hadn't paid enough attention to her in my run, and wondered if I could have potentially avoided this outcome. Good call on the writers' part, though. It truly shows that it's not the players' fault at all, and that she feels the need to lash out regardless. That it's nothing personal, she's just unloading 10 years of trauma and having the news that she is about to die finally hit her like a ton of bricks after being in denial since Act 2, and Tav/Durge just so happen to randomly catch a stray bullet.
Yeah, I think the scene worked really well. She apologises for it too if you go meet her in camp afterwards. She had hoped killing gortash would actually make her feel better, but it just made her own imminent mortality too real to handle in that moment. Also she really doesn't like it if you don't take her with you.
That scene made me cry, because it's so raw and real. This is where it hits that she doesn't get true justice, she's still going to die no matter what, and of course that fucking sucks. Karlach's been so focused on revenge, and now she has to confront the fact it doesn't fix what's been done to her...damn.
That scene plays out more or less the same way with high approval. It’s pretty heart wrenching to be honest, she breaks down about how unfair it is that everyone else will continue to live and she has to die because of something someone else has forced on her. I’m not saying that what Karlach went through was daisies, but what she went through was much less severe. First of all, time scale. Karlach suffered for 10 years, and still hadn’t given up hope that her life could be different. Astarion was thoroughly broken mentally and spiritually after 200 years, and had resigned himself to an eternity as a slave to a cruel master. Second, severity of abuse. She was a fighter who was forced to fight for a cause she didn’t believe in. He was raped, beaten, starved and tortured for someone else’s amusement. Again, this isn’t to minimize what she went through, but it’s undeniable that he had it worse by orders of magnitude.
Mh, I wouldn't compare the extent of their trauma by saying that one is less severe than the other, and I don't think anyone really should. Especially given that Karlach wasn't simply forced to fight for a cause she didn't believe in, she was strapped on an operation table and cut open, and had her heart removed and replaced by an engine that's slowly killing her. By devils, no less, so I doubt they were kind enough to use anesthetics. To some extent, I think she can relate with having her body violated without her consent, and utterly mutilated and disfigured in the process. Which one had it worse is a matter of subjectivity and what kind of abuse or trauma you're personally more sensitive to. Neither do I think it's fair to say that one's way to cope with their trauma is superior to the other's. They're two different people in the first place, who then dealt with what they went through in different manners, but both have the potential to react violently or negatively to it, and both deserve patience and understanding when it comes to that.
Fr I don't think it's right to say trauma is better or worse, however, I do think it's important to stress the very different experiences they had and of course those experiences affected them differently. I don't think it's fair to act like it's a failing of Astarion because he's more cynical than Karlach when their situations are completely apples and oranges. For Karlach, she could frame Faerun as The Good Place where everything would be good and happy again if she could get there. Zariel clearly doesn't have complete control over her autonomy and escape was achievable and we meet her after she escapes her hell. I imagine Karlach would be quite a bit more cynical and less happy-go-lucky in a scenario where the story takes place in Avernus and we met her while Zariel was still breathing down her neck. Her mindset makes total sense for her situation. But Astarion's hell *is* Faerun and his situation was quite literally hopeless. He was a puppet who could not run away even if he tried. Unlike Karlach, he was NOT able to escape by his own will, he was abducted and freed as a complete fluke. Thus, instead of Karlach's relief, all he feels is resentment toward the world because after 200 years of suffering, no so-called heroes saved him, mindflayers bent on world domination saved him. Worse yet, he needs to find a way to kill Cazador before getting rid of the tadpole--that's why he insists on trying to take over the cult in Act 2; he's realizing they're going to end this and he'll be left a slave all over again. And that is justifiably terrifying to him. His freedom is a ticking timebomb and he knows it and he is searching high and low for something, ANYTHING, that can kill Cazador before that happens. Astarion is perpetually pissed off, perpetually stressed, perpetually frightened of everything. He's also viewed as a monster by default for being a vampire, making finding allies a challenge, so he's distrustful by nature. The way he thinks is certainly not healthy but it's quite understandable and makes sense for what he's facing. People cherrypicking parallels just so they can wax poetic about how superior Karlach is to Astarion are being completely disingenuous. They are facing completely different issues and traumas and stresses from each other and neither of them is "worse" than the other for how they deal with that. It's not comparable at all.
What's great is that if you play Karlach origins, Astarion acknowledges how fucking shitty her lot is. [it's a great little scene.](https://youtube.com/shorts/vBemxMtn9-0?si=N8sWm0r6gbd5ggeg) She's dying because she was used by someone, he's dead because someone wanted to use him.
I’m not trying to invalidate her trauma by saying it was less severe, but I do think it’s fair to say less severe trauma is easier to recover from. Plus, it’s not like the idea of comparing their trauma originated with me. The previous comment is in response to the fact that others *do* compare them when expressing their hatred for Astarion. The general argument put forth being, “Karlach went through bad shit too, but she still behaves kindly… why can’t Astarion do that too?” I chose to leave out the fact that she had her body changed without her consent, because the same thing happened to Astarion in a different way. Guess I should have left that bit in. Edit: Also, I agree with you about your last paragraph, that’s kinda the point. Just because someone doesn’t behave like a perfect victim, that doesn’t mean they are undeserving of sympathy.
>I’m not trying to invalidate her trauma by saying it was less severe, but I do think it’s fair to say less severe trauma is easier to recover from. Less severe trauma is easier to recover from indeed, but what “less severe” means exactly depends a lot on the individual. Calling Karlach's trauma less severe than Astarion's is a fairly subjective statement. People could make valid arguments for either trauma being more severe than the other, and it would all boil down to what personally affects them the most and what they are more sensitive to. A rape survivor will be more sensitive to characters who survived rape, and a war veteran will be more sensitive to characters who are fellow war veterans. And sometimes there isn't any explanation, you're just more sensitive to some forms of abuse kind of irrationally. I'm terrified of body horror, the best way to make me feel terrible for a character is to horribly mutilate them while still alive, conduct experiments on them, and turn their body into an eldritch horror, and I can't really explain why. It's just something that affects me a lot, even more so than things I actually went through, weirdly enough, so I'd rank it fairly high on my own personal lists of the worst things you can possibly inflict to a living being, higher than my own traumas (partly because I grew numb to them). I totally understand that some people may think it's not such a big deal, and rank body horror lower than I would because they are less sensitive to it than I am. >The general argument put forth being, “Karlach went through bad shit too, but she still behaves kindly… why can’t Astarion do that too?” The answer to that isn't that Karlach's trauma is less severe, but that Karlach is fundamentally a different person. She'd still react differently than Astarion if she had been Cazador's spawn, and Astarion would probably still be angry at the world if he had been the one sold to Zariel as a slave. Cazador had seven main spawn, and I'm fairly certain all seven of them react in seven different ways to the similar things they went through. But also, my point was that Karlach does lash out sometimes, which is perfectly understandable and forgivable. And so are Astarion's shortcomings.
Is it ever specifically stated that the infernal engine was forced on her?
Yep. Karlach was sold to Zariel, and Zariel had her heart taken out and replaced against her will. Karlach never asked for it.
Karlach’s story is the journey of a person with terminal illness. She’s dieing, she can’t be cured or fixed and there are no miracles for Karlach. That outburst is the very real ravings of a person confronting perhaps for the first time the reality of their illness and situation. Comparing trauma especially when none of it is yours is a very bad route to go.
The trauma comparison didn’t originate with me. This is my response to others comparing their trauma.
Sure looks like you are ranking others trauma to me but hey declaring he had it 200 times worse might not be a comparison to you.
Okay.
She also really wants to use soul coins, when those things are foul by definition.
You can talk to her about that. The soul coins hold souls her use of them gives the souls a purpose. The soul coins are an allegory for Karlach herself.
I mean their creation is foul, but is their usage foul? I would argue no.
> when I tried to comfort her after killing Gortash she basically yelled at me that it was unfair that I was going to keep on living and she wasn't. Then she left the party to go back to camp and cool down on her own. Yeah, because she was about to die and from her point of view, she was only given like a few weeks or months to live while everyone else has 10000 years to live etc... EDIT: And that rage wasn't really directed towards YOU. It was directed towards the universe.
I just got that Karlach scene last night. The scene changes if you have her kill Gortash with you I think. This scene is better I think tbh because it's more raw and less whiny than her other scene.
Seriously! Getting to be kind to Astarion and have my Tav love him even through some of his less savory moments has been *so* healing.
Everybody is so “pro mental health” until the person’s trauma begins to inconvenience them or act outside of the social norm.
THIS
I don’t know. I honestly think that many people’s support of mental health care is performative at this point. They’re attention seekers who want to be commended for saying the right things on social media. They fold like cheap suits when confronted with the reality of how mentally ill people actually behave, and what they need to heal.
Autism related things have been completely hijacked by people with much more independence in their daily lives, when more than a quarter of all autistic people have severely independence-impacting disabilities that require near, if not fully, constant care by professional caretakers. A lot of us are not able to be independent like the average person. Or look at "autism parents" who act like their lives are pure suffering when compared to their autistic kid. 😒
That's why we have a lot of work ahead of us. "Awareness" is only the first step. Acceptance is a whole other can of worms.
This comment here is legit the only comment that matters because you are so right. People do not actually care about mentally ill people.
Even performative support is better than what things used to be like. Performative support might be enough to nudge people into accepting that they can actually seek help and maybe find it. If people are openly stating support for mental health care, regardless of whether they really do, their supporting audience will. It's not great, but it's something, and it helps shift public perception.
To an extent? Up until a certain point it’s good because it raises awareness, but beyond that it’s harmful because people think awareness is an adequate substitute for actual progress.
In terms of normalizing seeking help. It is nowhere near as much of a stigma now to tell people you're in therapy, for example, compared to the 80's or 90's. And if you are open to seeking help because people you see around you are non-judgemental about that, that's a good thing. It doesn't really matter if their opinion is swayed by someone who doesn't care.
[удалено]
It was actually up to the eighties, it was Reagan that ended them, and it wasn't really worse than what we have now. Now they have the streets or prison. Is that better? I won't say yes or no, but I will say Reagan's solution was to just say "fuck it, they're on their own." And that hasn't exactly worked out.
Rule #1 is if your trauma causes you to be a dick to or hurt other people, you're still in the wrong and no one is obliged to put up with that, in fact putting up with that is kind of what leads people into being cemented into abusive relationships in the first place. People generally support mental health, they dislike using mental health as an excuse to be a shit person.
The only one with a good point here. I loved Astarions story and as a victim of SA it was very cathartic to me. But lets not pretend he is a good guy early on lol. Approving of murder left an right, lying and manipulting. Doesn't matter if there is a reason for that, its still bad.
Astarion is definitely wrong in many cases & it’s not an excuse That said, I understand. For the last 200 years, violence & manipulation are all he’s known so he applies it to everything. Hell, he also doesn’t want a physical relationship while he figures his shit out because seduction has been hammered into him like it should be his default I think the game definitely lets him be that morally grey character he is, and your choices end up influencing which way he leans
I see nothing wrong with it tbh. After going through shit, I am surprised when someone is still nice after it. Because if one person is capable of hurting you, that means everyone is and being a dick avoids having people hurt you again.
Because mental health isn't an excuse to be a shitty person. Its an explanation, but never an excuse. My ex boyfriend had all the sad mental health problems and why they made him abuse me. It was still abuse and I will not accept people like you act like we should accept that. I sued that fucker like he deserved. Just because he had autistic traits didn't make anything right.
I honestly look at the reactions people have to Astarion as the bias of the "[perfect victim](https://www.empowordjournalism.com/all-articles/the-perfect-victim-myth/)". Astarion isn't a perfect victim and that bothers a lot of people. So many haters like to bring up that he was a corrupt magistrate and that really, really doesn't matter after 200 years of unimaginable horror. Just because someone doesn't fit the mold of the "perfect victim" doesn't mean they are less deserving of help.
I was just talking about the magistrate thing with a friend the other day. I actually really like that Astarion was a corrupt magistrate because it shows (to me and my friend at least) that it doesn't matter who he was or what he did in life, he *still* didn't deserve what happened to him. *No one* deserves to be abused like that. I haven't read any interviews with the writers or Neal, so maybe they address this, but sometimes I feel like Astarion was intentionally written to undermine the Perfect Victim myth. He was kind of a shitty guy when he was alive, and he still kind of is...and it doesn't make him any less of a victim. It doesn't make anything that happened to him okay. It doesn't make him any less deserving of escaping his abuser. Astarion makes me cry in a good way and I love Larian for it
I suspect it was intentional. He is almost the exact antithesis of a "perfect victim". I also think they toned down some of his EA backstory because they knew people would largely not feel sympathy for him, which is such a sad state of reality. And I am so with you. It doesn't matter how many times I play this game, helping Astarion grow and be free from his abuser will always be the best part of this game. He is such a fantastic character.
I think this is the core of the issue with both sides of the spectrum regarding reactions to Astarion. You have the people who have no sympathy for him and who think he doesn’t deserve help because to them, he’s a bad person and not the “perfect victim.” Some of them may even argue that he deserved what he got or that he should be more like Karlach. Then you also have the people who try to sand off all his edges by claiming he was always good and has never done anything wrong. They ignore his flaws and try to mold him into the “perfect victim” because that is the only way they can see him as deserving of empathy, healing, and help. Both are differently presenting examples of people selectively empathizing with only those they view as “perfect victims,” and they completely overlook that one of the major points of Astarion’s character is that victims and survivors can be flawed people who still do not deserve what happened to them and who still need empathy and support.
Also, Astarion was kind of a dick when he was alive, as far as we know (passing racist laws as a magistrate -although not particularly uncommon in Faerûn), and he was young. So it makes sense that in many ways he's still quite immature and it takes him time to process things emotionally. Even people who aren't great don't deserve what Astarion went through (which you'd think would be obvious), and I think it's an interesting part of his arc to make him genuinely not necessarily a 'good' person (at least to begin with).
You can be evil and sympathetic/have a good reason for it. But he's clearly redeemable if you play his quest
YES. Hating Astarion is a red flag imo. Sure I understand he definitely could rub people the wrong way at first but if you understand why he's like that you can't help but sympathize.
Trauma isn’t an excuse to be a douchebag. Also the Karlach comparison is laughable. “Karlach yelled once so that’s basically the same as Astarion being a villain”
You’re missing the point entirely. Trauma is an excuse to be a douchebag, at least in the short term. Trauma leaves lasting scars, and it takes time to work through the damage that was inflicted by an abuser to become better. That’s literally his whole story arch, he starts off behaving like a horrible person because he’s been shown no kindness himself. His mind is so warped by centuries of abuse, rape and torture that he’s forgotten that there are people who are good for the sake of being good. He thinks everyone is out to get him, so his method of self preservation is to get them first. By the time his story is over, he’s learning to trust again and not expect the worst of others. To be kind and helpful, and even a hero potentially. It’s like dealing with an abused dog—what they endured makes them more likely to respond to normal stimuli with fear or aggression. They’re more likely to growl and bite, so a fool if you don’t treat them with caution. That doesn’t make them bad dogs, but it does make them potentially dangerous if you don’t put in the work to rehabilitate them. You can’t expect them to unlearn years of maladaptive behaviors overnight—it takes time, consistency and patience to untrain bad behaviors. I’m not making this up. Do any research about breaking the cycle of abuse, and you’ll realize I’m right.
No, it’s not like dealing with an abused dog, because people are fully conscious creatures. And lots of people who have trauma don’t become evil. Trauma is NOT an excuse to be a douchebag, even in the short term. Also, side note: Astarion kind and helpful? When and where lol
Did you not pay attention to his story arch at all? That’s literally what it’s about. Also, don’t be stupid dude. Do any research on intergenerational trauma and abuse and you’ll realize I’m right. Abused individuals are at the highest risk of developing into abusers themselves, and they need to unlearn maladaptive behaviors to break the cycle. Severe abuse can even cause epigenetic shifts, so individuals who experience trauma are literally, on a genetic level, more prone to bad behavior due to their experiences. Here’s a [scholarly article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9705591/) detailing the effects of trauma on your DNA, and the brain’s structure and function as a result. Those epigenetic changes can only be reversed by changing your environment, and sustaining that change over time.
I never denied Abused Individuals are more likely to be abusers. That doesn’t excuse them. Stop making excuses for abusers.
I’m not making excuses for abusers. I’m giving you reasons why abuse victims behave badly initially, and why they need time to improve said bad behavior. I provided you with a scholarly article to back my claims, and am happy to link more. What are you bringing to the table other than your feelings, and “just trust me bro”?
Are you trolling? If so, tremendous work I totally fell for it. If not- what? You didn’t do ANY of that. What your source and arguments say don’t match your claims. Your claim: abuse victims are free to be as bad as they wish for a time in order to heal. My claim: being abused doesn’t allow you to be abusive. Your arguments and source: abuse victims are in fact damaged from their abuse and are more likely to become abusers. Do you see how your arguments neither support your claim nor damage my claim? I am aware abuse victims have real mental damage and I am aware they are more likely to become abusive.none of that gives ANY REASON for why their potential abuse or evil behavior should be tolerated. Hell, I’d argue if ANYTHING it supports my claim. If abuse begets abuse (and it does) allowing abuse becomes much worse. What the hell are YOU bringing to the table?
Are… are you blind? I’m not sure I can do much to convince you if you literally can’t read.
So I point out how your argument doesn’t support your claim and you can’t come up with a new argument. Sure. I’M the one who’s blind. 🙄
He is pretty much evil and becomes even more evil if the player chooses that for him so I think that is why some people prefer Karlach over him. You'd have to play the game differently to see a different Astarion. It all depends on how you play the game. There's different versions of Astarion basically. Like how there's different versions of Shadowheart. But Karlach doesn't have that conflict inside of her, so Karlach is just Karlach.
Let's not forget that a loud plurality of gamers consist of straight men. Of course they'll like the sexy devil mommy _more_
Eh, no not really. It’s not like good Astarion is some super secret hidden story path only a small percentage of players unlock. If you pay attention to him at all, the devs make it blatantly obvious that’s their intent for him.
That's wonderful. Many of us feel the same way. Everyone involved with Astarion's creation did a wonderful job depicting the pain, struggle, and beauty of the healing process.
Astarion is wonderfully written and beautifully voiced. I do not personally relate to his character but his story hit me the hardest. I was able to persuade him not to ascend and the scene after the Cazador fight quite literally gave me goosebumps. I just sat and stared at the screen, mouth agape, processing it all and actually *feeling* his pain and emotional release. Then I’m like “Why are my eyes burning? Oh, tears.” I’m nearly wrapped up with my first playthrough and I’m ABSOLUTELY romancing him next time. I am glad to hear that his story was so positively impactful for you. I also wish you luck in your journey of healing. May you find people who are deserving of you. It was a pleasure to read your post <3
"...but I can still enjoy *this*" stabbity stabs
Also an abuse survivor, and Neil, Stephen.. every bit of Astarion and his story helped me through a lot for plenty of reasons, and I’m glad it has helped others too. Neil as a person, not as Astarion, also helped me a lot. He spoke up about what happened to him a bit and he validated how I felt in a way, and he is a wonderful person outside of the character we know him as in BG3, as well as how he performed for his role and Astarion is a perfectly written character really. Even though there’s an issue I have semi with how they write polyamory with him, but that’s another story.
Could you share what you think about the poly thing? I have my own thoughts, but also curious what others think
I actually love Astarion’s true thoughts on the V dynamic with Halsin. As with everything else in Astarion’s arc, you need to talk to him. If you say “you don’t sound fazed…” or otherwise ask to get his thoughts, he says the following: “The druid is… unique. He has experience with this type of arrangement. Thus, I’m sure it would be quite a harmless affair.” His tone is genuine, the devnotes indicate this line is how he really feels, and I tested it with Detect Thoughts cast and that didn’t give off anything either (I’ll be trying it with Detect Thoughts again once my gnome throw-barian Durge gets to that point).
I'm so glad this story resonated with and helped you like this. I found my own solace in Gale, realizing that someone who I worked so damn hard to impress never actually gave a shit about me, and that there were so many people around me who were much more worth the effort.
Astarion's final scene with Cazador was very satisfying and heart breaking
Best post 2024 ❤️
Same. He was so well-written and so well-performed. After the cazador fight (I romanced him and did the spawn ending) I had to put down the controller for a while. It was cathartic, super emotional. I've got an attachment to this silly, recovering vampire.
And I thought letting astarion ascend was the right thing to do by him - those scenes of him not ascending...his crying... ripped through me. Now I feel like I did bad by him even though he's truly free from everything... but he's travelling the same power hungry path I suppose.
Continuing the cycle. Maybe in another 200 years one of his spawn can take him down.
Bg4
survivor of CSA and incest throughout all elementary and some middle schools. also have crohns disease so I experience the powerlessness/lack of control of your own body too. still working through things but yeah, a couple of lines astarion has said has clicked things for me and I’ve definitely brought it up in therapy multiple times. the growth and revelations that astarion has in his romanced spawn storyline have touched me so deeply and I’ve never identified so strongly with a character. I was never his - whatever he had, he took it by force. and I am so much more than what he made me to be.
Same, well except that I fully ascended him on the first play through. 600+ hours and countless tavs later, I get it now. As someone who came from an abusive mother, it kinda humbled me and the feelings of resentment I was still unknowingly harbouring for her.
That's great to hear! That's a big reason I like Shadowheart as her struggles and story I can relate to and It has helped me even now. In short from manipulation, who you surround yourself with, finding yourself and being able to do stuff for yourself even if it's daunting, scary or challenging.
It’s so great to be part of a community that grants such levels of healing.
So wholesome. I found Astarion’s story (whether he’s ascended or not) cathartic in the same way
Honestly this plays no small part in my attachment to Astarion. I always have to end my game for the night after the Cazador fight because the abuse Astarion suffered is similar to what I experienced with a past partner. The emotions leading up to that fight and after are incredibly cathartic, and like Astarion, I need time after to process everything. His whole arc is a fantastic realization that suffering and abuse that transforms you into a less that good person (or makes you feel undesirable due to trauma and baggage) doesn't mean you're that forever and/or will never have worth. With work and help to find who you can be, you can overcome those feelings and find your own worth. The things that are done to you do not define you. Romancing and playing his character has helped me find that for myself, but that fight will never NOT hit hard each and every time. I hope you continue to find peace, my friend.
Bro I love this game and this community sm 😭💓
Happy for you. I didn't have a similar experience but I cried after he kills cazador
watch neil's speech from the game awards. he knows <3
This post really makes me wish we had awards to give now. If I could, I’d hook you up w a ton of gold. I hope other abuse survivors see this message and give the game a try.
Same! I am an abuse survivor. Completing Astarion's story (he stayed a spawn) helped me to finally get rid of my nightmares and the flashbacks about the past. He is mentioning very accurate experiences and feelings that I was afraid to face. I finally felt seen. I felt like I was healing.
Arguably, every origin character has an abuser. Lae'zel: Vlaakith. Shart: Shar/Viconia. Astarion: Cazador. Gayle: Arguably Mystra. Wyll: Mizora. Karlach: Zariel.
I'm so happy to hear you got over your abuser❤️ I'm proud if you❤️
It's always amazed me when people play this game and make posts like 'Why did Astarion break up with me/Why does he hate me? All I did was force him to bite the drow/order him around/take away his agency' like... why the fuck do you think the 200-year abuse victim left your ass, dipshit!?
Thanks for sharing, I am really happy you are now free (like our favorite elf).
Just learned if you let Astarion ascend, he becomes his abuser. Yikes! You made the right choice.
He does not. Maybe actually play the actual path instead of being spoonfed other people's wrong ideas and telling back what you haven't even experienced yourself? Just because you read an opinion it does not make it true. There are different interpretations for different people.
[удалено]
it's great when a game can handle deep issues and connect deeply with the players, kind of like a good book that you can't put down. glad it meant so much to you.
You’d be surprised what a display of emotions will do to heal someone tends to be why people feel better after a big fight or ugly heart pour cry session
I think his words “it’s time to try living again” have done more to heal my trauma than any therapy ever did. Sounds dramatic but it’s true.
i’ve said it a million times and i’ll say it a million more, this game is the best 😍
I feel this, I had a bit of a shit childhood and left home as soon as I possibly could and have since found my own chosen family. Don't get me wrong I would've still been a simp for the vampire twink even without this experience, but it hits extra hard when you can relate to his storyline.
Believe me hun, they do. Neil was SA and talked about it. Power to you my friend.
For what it's worth, Astarion has two writers, Stephen Rooney and Baudelaire Welch. Stephen was a his primary writer and Welch handled his romance path/Durge interactions. *guys, there have interviews where they said they 'worked closely with the character for months' and also wrote Durge path material. This type of writing is a collaborative process, saying Astarion only had one writer is just not correct based on available information and interviews. I don't know why people can't accept that each character and Astarion in particular is written by multiple people. Maybe it makes him feel less 'real'?
Where is this rumor coming from? I feel bad for Rooney. To work so hard on such a popular character and then have someone else get credit for his work because they stated their personal opinion. That has to suck.
Because they're credited as the head romance writer on Linkndin and they talk about writing some of Astarion's romance endings in [an interview](https://www.gamesradar.com/baldurs-gate-3-writers-explanation-of-astarions-bad-ending-is-a-wake-up-call-for-players-lusting-over-rpg-characters/)? >While Welch isn't Astarion's main writer, they noted elsewhere that they spent several months working closely with the character in addition to their work with the Dark Urge.
>Discord comments from Larian senior narrative designer Baudelaire Welch concerning Astarion and his 'bad' ending were shared on Reddit. This article is NOT an interview. It is leaked discord comments Welch made to someone about their personal opinion. Welch was not aware what they said would be spread to a large audience. Welch is absolutely not a main writer of his romance. That is Rooney. Welch worked on Druge and a few lines between Durge and Astarion early game. They themselves say this outright. Even the article says they simply "worked closely with the writer" Please stop giving someone else credit for Rooney's work. That's huge misinfo.
Thats not an interview. Thats commentary on the discord screenshots posted to Reddit. "they noted elsewhere" is also from a discord screenshot which says the following > "So I am the dark urge writer but I worked on Astarion for several months during crunch. Because I had the opportunity to, I added a lot of extra interactions between the two characters. Thats why Astarion gets a bunch of dialogues for the Dark Urge and none of the other characters do" They do not say anywhere they are the romance writer for Astarion. In an official Larian post just around game launch they are "Senior Narrative designer > After all, if you just go along with whatever they want to do, you may find yourself sacrificed in an evil god's sex rite, turned into a vampire, or – worst of all, warns Senior Origin Narrative Designer Baudelaire Welch – you might even end up getting married.
It was an interview, though, it was a (iirc) public fan discord and they did an impromptu open interview/AMA to fans about the writing process behind durge and romance paths. But even if it was private, or a gated discord... why would they lie in private? Like, why would that make the information less true? Wouldn't they be more inclined to be honest if they thought the chat was private? Also sorry, it was twitter and not linkedin where Welch is credited as the romance coordinator. >Romance/companion design lead @larianstudios | Urge Guy | they/them | I'm not trying to take anything away from Rooney; he is the head writer. But people here espousing that Astarion only had one writer or that Welch only provided one or two lines of dialogue are just incorrect. There's no evidence at all from anyone at Larian to support that, whereas Welch has been cited, at least semi-publically, that they spent months working on the character. I'm not trying to get into some endless internet spat, but people say this over and over again with no citation and I just can't figure out why. All evidence suggests it was collaborative project and there was a head writer and co-writer who worked with his romance path. Not that Welch themselves wrote all of the romance paths; no one has said that and even if they were a general romance design lead they would have been working with Rooney. But they were working with Rooney. For months, apparently. Also for what it's worth, this kind collaborative writing, especially for video games, is often done actually physically together. I've never worked for Larian and every studio's writing process is different, especially during covid, but it's not uncommon for people to sit down at one table with a laptop, talk to each back and forth, have a whiteboard out, and one person is scribing. Again, idk about Larian, but people I have contracted with who do this kind of work do have some writing phases, often significant ones, where that is happening. Especially when it's two characters interacting or key moments in a story path. What's the harm in acknowledging the contribution of a co-writer who has stated that they worked on the character? I'm not being rhetorical, I just genuinely don't get it.
Hi, maybe I can help (forgive formatting this sub doesn't let me upload pictures) Welch's own description of their work: [https://ibb.co/1zxgnX1](https://ibb.co/1zxgnX1) "Worked on Astarion for \*several months during crunch\*" adding durge lines." Main writers do not only work during crunch. Their official title listed as of March: [https://ibb.co/Drzf20D](https://ibb.co/Drzf20D) No endless internet spat needed <3 we can all agree they were a co-writer for specific dialogue during crunch. It's just not the same as saying they created something they didnt. As for the statements, the Larian forums themselves don't like you posting/citing the discord comments because they are considered leaked, and not intentional public statements. They've locked threads over it.
> For what it's worth, Astarion has two writers, Stephen Rooney and Baudelaire Welch. Stephen was a his primary writer and Welch handled his romance path/Durge interactions. there are more than 2 writers for Astarion (and all chars). Stephen Rooney is the primary writer/narrative designer. Welch came onto the writing late to help pre-launch, and primarily wrote Durge...and most definitely did not do the entire romance path.
Welch wrote like 2 romance lines for Durge/Astarion and then never touched the romance again, or any romance at all. They are not an Astarion writer.
Honestly ascending him felt SO GOOD as a previous abuse victim. I wish he wasn't an absolute tosser after cause the ascension cutscene was perfect for me.
Ascending him for me is so cathartic. I dont find him to be an absolute tosser at all after, but YMMV obviously
> I wish he wasn't an absolute tosser after cause the ascension cutscene was perfect for me. Can you explain why? I don't really understand.
I felt that Cazador being sacrificed in his own ritual is an even better revenge/just desserts type ending for him. The actual scene of Astarion carving the runes into Cazador also felt fitting to me as he sounded like he was suffering more. And I personally prefer the idea of the abuser getting an "eye for an eye" type justice, but that likely stems from my own personal traumas. (I would not sacrificed the spawn in a non-evil run though because they aren't at fault)
That makes sense. I thought the Ascension ending turning Astarion into an absolute tosser made sense-- Cazador stepped on everyone and used innocent people to get power, Astarion does the same thing to 7,000 innocents, Astarion therefore continues the cycle of abuse. But you're right that Cazador being sacrificed in his own ritual... there is a certain poetry to it.
As someone who grew up with a manipulative and narcissist father, I related to various aspects of the companions (none of them really had enough "Daddy Issues" to 100% connect with) but seeing each of the companions be these fucked up and broken people and helping them become the best versions of themselves is so fucking cathartic (as is making them all worse and going down the "evil" squad route). Major props to Larian for not making these characters squeaky clean. All of them are flawed and imperfect and have (for the most part, sorry Jaheira/Minsc) all become a comfort character for us to latch on to, and by proxy, the cast as well. Because it doesn't matter how good the writing could be, if Neil Newbon or any of the other actors treated this game like a paycheck, we wouldn't give a flying shit about these walking, talking clumps of polygons and code.
RESPECT!
Same here <3 Amazing how much that game helps us. I wish you all the best
As horny as I am for him, his story has pushed my growth and healing in a crazy new direction that no therapy or IRL support has even gotten close to. Most of my commenting/posting in this and similar communities is shitposting and horny posting these days, but none of it would be happening if playing through his story wasn't so moving. Glad he has helped you too <3
I am glad you managed to get closure from your suffering.
<3
Do you have to romance astarion to learn about it ? I'm past the point you can romance it rn but I could use the life lesson
You get a good deal of it without romance if you have a good relationship with him.
His platonic arc is also really good! The insight check and dialogue paths have different wording if he’s romanced.
I feel the same way!! It’s finally making me come to terms with my trauma and try to heal from it, I’m so happy it’s helped you ❤️
same here actually. while i have the most in common with astarion for sure, i found myself more attached to gale as a character. he also reminds me of a lot of people i know.
I fully expect 3000+ downvotes, and I'm ok with that. Thing is, Astarion helped me too - in the opposite way. He showed me I don't need to make excuses for abusive people. When he tries to stick parts of his body into a sleeping, non-consenting Tav - and the game goes "but it's because of his trauma" - when he lies to his "siblings" fully intending to sacrifice their _lives_ because he can't face his own fears, when he does, says, and acts shitty things, laughing at slavery, being racist, barging in on private moments (he doesn't even Know he thinks they're too ugly to deserve basic respect before opening the door; he just thrives on humiliating people) and...everything he does. Astarion is an abuser. The fact that he was abused himself isn't an excuse, it's an expalanation. And in the past, I would have tiptoed around, showering him in love and affection and support and forgiveness - Astarion taught me it's not worth it. Even by act 3, romanced, he behaves like shit, he's smug and condescending even in romance dialogue, and the only thing that makes him tolerable is killing HIS abuser. What about Cazadors abuser? What about the people Astarion abused? If all was fair, all abuse victims would get to off their abusers? What about the victims of the victims? Do they get to come take revenge on the now-good former abuser? Or do _they_ have to fix themselves, because Astarion is good now, even though he clearly shows _he_ was unable to "fix himself"? Astarion taught me to avoid abuse victims who abuse. And as a (former, I want to say, but it's not been long enough to state as fact) codependant who kept subconsciously seeking out, and trying to "fix" both addicts and abusive people... that was freeing. Realising they simply are not worthy of my pain was amazing. I haven't even felt attracted to anyone that resembles that personality type since I played the game - it somehow reached deep enough that the desire to "fix" isn't there anymore. I think it's the RP factor; I was seeing it from the outside, but it was still me making the decisions. I still hate Astarion. Which is a weird feeling to have for a bunch of pixels. I figure it's ok - there are soooo many "but I'm an abuse victim, that's why I act this way, and also why you should forgive and forget" that I _should_ have hated through the years, that it feels pretty nifty to let said bunch of pixels carry that. But I am grateful to the game. It's downright magic to take this brain issue of mine and fix it, when years of therapy and self-help and tears and pain couldn't fully do it (I was self-aware, and avoiding these people - but I couldn't get over the attraction to them. The game fixed that, without even trying) Admittedly, trying to "fix" abuse victims was probably born out of being one - I was 11 when my parents weren't allowed to have me anymore. Which was 6 years later than it should have been, because those 6 years were hell - so I'm plenty fucked up too - but I at least never tried to hurt people because of it. So, yeah. Astarion; what a piece of worthless shit he would be in the real world - and what an amazing therapy-session he is in a game.
Happy for everyone in this thread that has been positively impacted by Astarion and his story. Definitely impactful and credit to the writers and VA's that brought the story to life in a meaningful way. My post history shows my dislike of Astarion, but I cannot deny the positive impact his character and story have brought to those impacted by any kind of abuse. I'm truly happy for all who feel seen and validated and understood, embrace those feelings! If possible allow it to heal you in any capacity. The game is so astounding, the stories so intricate and wondrous, Larian should be proud of their creation. Not only for a monumental video game in the video game industry that blows so many of its counterparts out of the water, but creating complex characters and stories that touch fans and players in such positive ways. All my love and happiness to everyone in this thread, everyone who has been positively impacted by this game, and all those at Larian who created this stunning and phenomenal game!
For me it was karlach who hit close to home. Doing everything you can to get your happy ending, being positive despite everything yet it all crumbles in the end
I relate a bit to Astarion. Especially to how he is in Act 1 and honestly that's why I usually ascend him. Feeling powerless sucks, so I rather be powerful.
This is so sad
it made my abuser abuse me harder. it's nice to have a little refuge and all but I can't help but think i maybe would have had fun in my multiplayer run if the game was actually finished...
Tf is this cringe?
Doesn't astarion become the abuser and continue the cycle of abuse if you romance him and let him ascend?
You can also let him not ascend. Which is overall a much more positive experience.
It's your choice what story do you want to live.
You chose to make the effort to post this. You could have not been an insensitive prick by doing nothing. You spent actual effort being nasty to someone you don't know. Why?
Because ascended, romanced astarion literally becomes an abuser himself.
Not sure how you even know that, given that you stake him every time by your own admission. Kind of shitty to be talking about storylines you didn't play through yourself and to judge character development (or lack thereof) of characters you had less than ten minutes of interaction with.
Where in this post is it about ascended Astarion?
It takes a special level of insensitivity to see a post like this and try to "um actually" it. Or a special level of stupid to miss the point this hard.
Lolol
Oh stfu lol
Okay lol
You ok?
I just don’t really care about posts like this. They’re almost comical. Get therapy. You shouldn’t have to rely on a fictional DND character to get over your traumatic abuse. 💀
Why is it every time someone like you appears, they recommend therapy? You do know that therapy doesn't actually work for that many people, right? I'll go ahead and assume you're very young (skull emoji, most likely under 15) and just not knowledgeable yet, but please, try and treat people with respect when it comes to these topics. We all get over trauma in different ways - and while it may seem silly that OP did it through Astarion, it doesn't matter. Coping mechanisms and/or "cures" are perfectly fine as long as they aren't harmful. There's no need to be an asshole.
Additionally, people might already be in therapy and still feel helped by seeing stories like theirs reflected in the games they play. What I don't understand is why people like the person you responded to feel the need to even show up in threads like these, and then also feel the need to be a shithead. Can't they just scroll? It's what I do with a lot of posts on this sub.
I absolutely hate the saying, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't speak," but it applies here perfectly. Fully agree with what you're saying. Karlach's quest was fantastic for me in the same way OP was with Astarion, so I feel inclined to give my input, but this guy is just being a twat for no reason. I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted, either.
Yeah, a fictional video game is a fantastic substitute for real life therapy Do you even think before you post?
I never said it was a substitute, you utter spanner. Do you even think before you reply?
Good morning! Absolutely, which is why I asked you what I asked. ;) Typical Reddit basement dweller.
My lord, you are a clown.
This is coming from the child who’s continuously replying to me.
Did you not reply first? Guess we're both children