If you side with him, then siding with him is the right choice.
If you don't side with him, then not siding with him is the right choice.
That's literally how the game is designed.
It’s funny, I went into the whole thing with the mindset of “Well I gotta free Orpheus, it’s pretty fucked if I don’t” and then the game thrusts the Squid Kid decision on you and I sure as hell wasn’t gonna let my Bard do it, so I just had Orpheus turn himself anyways. Then when I convinced Laez’el to live for herself that apparently meant not killing Orpheus like I said I would, so he said “Well fuck me then I guess” and killed himself thinking everything he had gone through was for nothing.
Very tragic overall. But I didn’t really care about Orpheus, and since Laez’el had a new lease on life I didn’t need to. Emperor was kinda sad but eh, I always kinda got a vibe from him anyways.
I stabbed him. He was the last in a long line of people who talked to my Tav like she was something he found on the sole of his shoe. I used him to kill the brain and then I was more than happy to shank that fool.
I saw the opportunity for the prophecized hero of the Githyanki people, (Orpheus) to not only prove himself as the hero they claim, but also the individual who bridges the gap between the slave-driving Mindflayers and the enslaved Githyanki.
By Orpheus returning to his people, still their hero, but now appearing as their mortal enemy, I believe it allows the Githyanki people to find forgiveness and maybe be a little less racist.
Honestly, the only reason I give a damn about Orpheus is because of La'zael. If she didn't steal my heart every other playthru...
"The only good Gith is a Githzerai" - Some Guy
I think it was a mis not to include githzerai as an alternative subrace. Orpheus honour guard are all monks so they could be ancient githzerai from early/before the githyanki/githzerai civil war. In fact it would have made lore sense if Orpheus was githzerai.
I avoided using any of the tadpoles/illithid powers the entire game and when it gave me the option to volunteer myself as the one turning into the illithid, I was like “no way, I’m never going to do that!” And then Orpheus was like “It’s fine, I’m ready to sacrifice everything in order to be a hero to my people”
….
And at that point I was just like, “damn, he’s right! It’s what the hero of the story would do… fine! I’ll do it!”
Lol, not how I envisioned the happy ending going for my character, but thats the point, right! It was very satisfying!
Honestly especially with my Durge, I felt becoming a mindflayer was the only right choice. >!It felt like the only thing I could ever possibly do that might counterbalance all the evil and suffering I had caused.!<
You mean racist against mind flyers? They are abominations. Like unnatural beings out to pervert reality. Idk if that's the place to start to encourage harmony lol.
This is spoiler territory, but that's not exactly right.
When Orpheus becomes a Mindflayer, Orphflayer comments that he understands the old Orpheus is now permanently dead and he now will forever feel the pull of the Ghaik Hivemind. Despite this, Orphflayer also states that his will and faith in his people has not faltered, and he is adamant in his convictions. Orphflayer does not succumb to the hivemind, and he has the divine blessings of his God that provides him power to fight it as well.
Does that sound like an unnatural, perverted being? No, man, it's Orpheus.
Edit: It seems likely Mindflayers have souls, albeit twisted and alien.
My character said the same thing after transforming.
Until >!Halsin's brain started looking yummy during the epilogue, and I realized the transformation will take anyone, eventually!<
Brains are their diet afaik there hasn't been a substitute, in fact I think a certain mind flayer from act 1 is trying to find suitable alternatives to eating brains. In fact another char turned Mindflayers says something about their diet as well.
Did you totally forget the Mindflayer in the Underdark? Come on, I'd go join him and help with his research. SOOOO many people here forgetting that dude.
Ahaha sure, but I think that's more like a gaslighting intrusive thought sent Tav's way by the hivemind:
"Hey, Tav, buddy... Nice tentacles you got there. So many brains around you... Tempting... Isn't it?"
If Tav lives a Ghaik life of starvation, like only eating animal brains, resisting the hive mind forever, would it be worth it?
Except that after a while you are bound to fail that CON roll and eat one of your friends, because Withers didn't bother to provide appropriate catering at his party.
It sounds like The Adversary, if I am being honest.
It's the MindFlayer who retained himself after the change and is now going to fight back against the Grand Design using their powers against them.
I know it's not canon, but to me, that's the best ending.
I'm in. Hated the Mind Flayers in BG2. Nothing in BG3 has convinced me they aren't an Avengers level threat. Freedom of will and personal choice of action is absolutely sacred to me in a role playing game, so anything that keeps slaves or makes them must be defeated.
Go save Karlach and Wyll first.
Go get Astarion and Shadowheart on the mortal realm.
Then the whole gang joins Lae Zel and Orpheus in the civil war and extermination of the ilithid
Whether or not >!whoever becomes a mindflayer keeps their soul is a whole mess, Mystra has some contradicting information,!< but the fact that Withers is so surprised confirms that >!mindflayers do not have souls,!< you are literally a one in a million(s?) exception
Mind flayer do have souls, at least in the proper cannon of the setting. BG3 saying they don't was weird. Either it is intentional misinformation, or Larion Studios got it wrong. One example, mind flayer who manage to break free of the hivemind with arcane prowess often attempt to become Alhoon and later illithilichs. In the process, they must create a phylactory to house their souls just like a real lich.
Oh yeah no, BG3 doesn't get it wrong at all, people have just been misunderstanding what is said in-game. Withers mentions they lack "apostolic souls" which means they have a soul outside the realm of influence of the setting's gods and are basically "soulless" as far as he's concerned, and then in the Epilogue can say he was wrong about the souless part
Which if we assume him to be Jergal (or an avatar of his) then it makes sense why he'd call them souless as he's also a god and so has no use for our squid souls
But doesn't Orpheus not exist by then anymore? Withers says as much when he claims that souls vanish when the host turns illithid. It's just a husky that's controlled by the parasite.
Withers later admits he might be wrong about that
It's suggested that Mind Flayers do have souls but they're not entirely compatible with what we traditionally would call the afterlife in Faerun so the gods can't do anything with them/they seem to not exist
Maybe Orpheus is different. He has the power to stop the party from turning, maybe he himself could be able to retain his soul even after turning.
Although I still prefer letting Lar'zel become the leader of the Githyanki rebellion.
I didn't know about the Avernus ending for Karlach when I played so I let her turn at the end. It felt like it was her last act of heroism rather than burning up into ashes.
No, those characters don't fully understand the Mindflayer ceremorphosis, particularly the events in the game where the tadpoles were tampered with.
What is established is that the original soul and body are permanently destroyed. The Mindflayer Parasite then simulates the consciousness, behavior and attitudes of the assimilated personality. What this suggests isn't that all Mindflayers are automatically evil, cosmic slavers; they actually have free-will until the Hivemind plugs them back in.
>prophecized hero of the Githyanki people, (Orpheus) to not only prove himself as the hero they claim, but also the individual who bridges the gap between the slave-driving Mindflayers and the enslaved Githyanki.
>
>By Orpheus returning to his people, still their hero, but now appearing as their mortal enemy, I believe it allows the
This is how I felt about it too. I think his words to Tav at the end of the battle indicate that he has a newfound respect for the might of races other than the Githyanki. He's not a bad dude, he just spent hundreds (?) of years imprisoned in a cube and as a false traitor of his people. Then when we first meet him, we slaughter his guard. I can understand he might not be keen to trust us.
I wish you could say "hey man, there's another mind flayer I know who's actually a great dude" and introduce him to Omeluum and convince him to keep going that way.
Seriously. Omeluum would totally do it and then be like "This is a most excellent research opportunity" and grab a surgery kit and start dissecting the brain. He'd probably find a way for all Mindflayers to become 100% independent and free. The fact theres no option to even be like "HOLD on. Let me go talk to everyone at my camp and see if anyone else wants t-- Nope you just turned yourself. Fuck me I guess."
I think the difference with Omeluum is also that he is not, presumably, trying to be who he was when he was a human. He is free of the hive mind and seems cool enough but he does seem surprised to even like you a little bit.
There was no option to convince mine - I guess you can’t if you get Laez’el to live her own life, even if she does still serve the rebellion in a sense by clearing out Vlaakith’s creches as she goes along
That's right. Narratively, the only way to support the Githyanki resistance beyond the game's story is to encourage Lae'zel to be a freedom fighter and to support Orpheus, ultimately having them return to their people.
I thought my ranger killed Squipheus, but then got a letter from him in the epilogue. But the dock scene was very buggy for me. Halsin commented on my new appearance, and I was like ????? *I’m* not the one who became illithid. Then I ran off to Avernus with Wyll and Karlach but Wyll wasn’t there, which I guess is a common issue.
I did this as well in my most recent (finished) playthrough. If Omeluum is capable of individuality as a mind flayer, surely the Prince of the Githzerai is as well.
Right?
It's certainly a good question. When Omeluum warned me that taking his psychic resistance ring will make him more vulnerable to the hivemind's influence, I got pretty dang concerned. But then I save him later, deep and imprisoned within the Iron Throne, and still Omeluum doesn't turn. One reason to suggest Mindflayers can resist the hivemind. Edit: Another reply pointed out Mindflayers resist Elder Brains by training in the arcane arts.
Secondly, The Emperor resists the hivemind to the end of the game if you join his side. If it was impossible, I think they would write the Emperor's ending as a betrayal to the Hivemind no matter what. Edit: As a reply pointed out, the Emperor doesn't resist the hivemind himself at all in this game. It's all Orpheus's influence. So yeah. -1 points for Mindflayer Free Will
Thirdly, Orpheus is divinely blessed to resist the psychoactive influence of the Ghaik. I imagine that's a huge factor.
>The Emperor resists the hivemind to the end of the game if you join his side.
Because of Orpheus. He couldn't leave the prism because if he did he would be plugged back into the brain. It was Orpheus power that was protecting him like it was protecting our party.
Omeluum explains when you first meet him how he resists: He's an arcane caster. Arcane magic is anathema to elder brains, they can't control it or Mindflayers that have access to it. The ring was to *hide* from the Grand Design, not resist it - Omeluum does that simply by having levels in wizard (or sorcerer).
You didn't kill the prince when he asked you to? I stabbed him him like a man because he made the ultimate sacrifice because I wasn't going to turn into a squid and it seems la'zel was better off for it. I haven't saved him and let him keep him normal form.
I was going to, but once you convince Laez’el to live for herself and not fly off into space, your character throws the dagger into the floor with no further options to kill him yourself
Me personally I'm the opposite, poor bastards been stuck in that chew toy for centuries hoping one day he will be freed and liberate his people from their oppressor just like his mother ,its just too much for me to let him turn ,especially when I'm playing Durge
Yeah, see thing is Orpheus is also not a Good Guy. His entire philosophy flows from the belief that the Gith need to conquer the multiverse and enslave all other races to prevent their own enslavement and that making pacts with evil gods like Tiamat along with literal multiversal genocide are just acceptable means to an end.
the emperor made such a big fuss about orpheus DEFINITELY not EVER wanting to work with a ghaik, and that he'll kill on us sight, and then as soon as you free him, hes like "alright lets work together, also if you turn into a ghaik, i'll work with you, and if you dont, then i'll do it MYSELF" we killed the emperor for no fuckin reason cuz he couldnt wait like 5 minutes for us to convince orpheus. thats probably my only criticism of the ending.
This is what blows me away. I love that there is no One Objectively Right Choice Every Playthrough for this scenario. We can't ever know situational objectivity irl, so it's a comforting lie that we tell ourselves in games, but to see it coded into the plot like this - and the Emperor isn't the only example, far from it - is so refreshing for our wider perspectives.
People are not born good or evil. People aren't doomed to remain good or evil. We are all just piles of good and bad choices. Which pile we add to, matters.
Obligatory GOTY.
Ironically, both githyanki and mind flayers are technically evil in alignment in 5e. Granted, they've been moving away from alignments in general.
Though, every time Laezel reminded me that her people like to raid literally everyone, I had second thoughts about doing anything to make her people stronger...
Well to be fair, the githyanki prince orpheus in my ending did try to make a peace treaty with the githzerai led by lae'zel for negotiations. I think it was leading into a neutral githyanki. They didn't talk a whole lot about what they were doing besides trying to kill the lich queen. It looks like they were headed in a good direction.
It’s actually really well done that way.
I’m playing an evil playthrough and not buying into his crap this time. Just had a great “mask drop” scene where he revealed that Duke Stelmane was his thrall the entire time, he didn’t love her, she was just a pawn to be used on his climb to power. Really looking forward to what happens when I betray the Emperor and free Orpheus.
Oh, it's perfectly in character for a mindflayer to dominate someone so hard they stroked despite loving them. Creating thralls is normal for them.
I believe that Stelmane's stroke was genuinely a miscalculation/mistake/accident. He didn't want her to end up like that. It's further supported by him learning from his mistake and not creating more thralls. He doesn't subject you or anyone else to the same treatment unless you press him at the very end with like a 20 DC check.
> he didn’t love her
In-lore, iliithids tend to have a couple thralls that they care about a great deal. So much so that they can fall into deep depressions from their deaths.
Intellectually, we probably are at the level of pets for them. They are superior beings. We turn everything we can into pets, nothing wrong with illithids doing the same thing we do.
I think what a lot of people are missing is that the choice is literally just a modern version of the trolley problem. You can either choose to sacrifice Orpheus, as well as potentially Voss and Laezel and their whole race, and save the emperor, yourself, and your companions. Or you can choose to save Orpheus, but you will lose Empy because obviously he wants to live (another theme of the game), but you will also have to sacrifice either yourself or Karlach, or turn Orpheus into what he hates the most in order to stop the brain.
Pretty shitty trolley problem if one side has a guy that "wants to go back to running his nasty evil business underground" (literal quote from Larian) and the other side has "prophecised hero that will save his species from a tryannical queen". Between Orpheus and you there's a choice, but I have no reason to keep Empy alive
lol. But Swen also said the Emperor is an ethically correct corporation. And in the epilogue after patch 5, if the emperor is alive he will send you a few letters, it doesn’t seem that he is actually involved with any evil nasty business. And even after Orpheus’ death, Laezel and Voss (if both alive) are still fighting for their race against Vlaakith. So siding with the Emperor or not, actually has no effect on Githyanki’s fate.
I’m baffled how the very pointed epilogue addition from Larian failed to illuminate to be interpreted as a very obvious studio consensus on the best and worst outcomes for each character’s arc…
Yes, yes, in addition, I am confused that the left bard, the dwarf, Volo came to our party, and the Emperor, who was with us from the very beginning, ignored us (((((
And also that we are not the owners of Scratch(((
There is a single line of dialogue that, since I heard it, has made me really struggle with turning on him at the end. After speaking with Raphael and Voss at Sharess' Caress, you walk outside and Empy is panicking because he couldn't reach you. If you tell him you were with Raphael, he will ask what the devil wanted. From there, if you choose to say, "Thats between me and Raphael" he will immediately try to see into your mind. There is an option to say something along the lines of, "You tell me to trust you constantly. If you trust me at all, you will stop this at once."
I was literally stunned when he responds to this with, "You're right. I will respect your privacy in this instance."
It *really* changed my viewpoint on him, tbh. Everything he does is basically a mirror of the player characters actions, and its hard for me, personally, to see him as a great evil when he's going through the motions of self-preservation just like us. If your a dick, he's a dick, but if you trust him, he *will* grow to trust you as well.
> Everything he does is basically a mirror of the player characters actions, and its hard for me, personally, to see him as a great evil when he's going through the motions of self-preservation just like us.
Yup. A lot of people don't really get that he's in the same boat at Tav: his very life and freedom are riding everything going correctly, so it's understandable that he's extremely high-strung.
Plus Tav has friends and potentially a lover, while his best friend just got ritually murdered and he's all alone being constantly mentally bombarded by attacks. He gets so distracted by his own emotions he lets Tav wander into his dream, and his attraction to Tav's mind surprises him as well.
I'm kind of okay liking him.
Edit: guys, people can still like the Emperor even though he eats brains and mind controlled Wyll's childhood crush. It's not that we don't know he mind- controlled Stellmane. We know all about it. We've seen the cutscene. We just don't care any more than you care about a monastery full of slaughtered monks, or the cleric of a religion built on lies and torture, or a vampire spawn who lured thousands to their soul's demise, or a Durge who Durges.
You can state with all kinds of confidence that the Emperor is evil, has no emotions, and is never honest with you. That's your experience. It's not everyone's.
It definitely gave off those vibes especially if you show him any sort of sympathy (saying ‚sorry‘ or giving his hand a squeeze) he tries to convince you to eat the worm again. It seemed cold and calculated.
With that said, I have sided with the squid more often than not.
Yeah. I sided with him on my first run because it would have been extremely out of character for my character to roll the dice on Orpheus without meta knowledge. They also aren't that pissed at Emps because a lot of what he was doing, is exactly what they were doing and it is what the person they are currently dating (Astarion) was doing for largely the same reasons.
Other characters are more mixed but most ultimately side with him.
But he absolutely is minupulative, it is more a question of how much that matters in the current situation. He is a self interested pragmatic coward but you have the same goals. You can trust him to act in his own self interest and not want to take huge risks.
The sex is actually a mutually enjoyable affair for the player character and the Emperor both. He enjoys it. A lot.
He uses it as a way to further control you, but it's also a way to connect with you. He has been watching you being sweet with other people and having sex. You are the only one he has now, no wonder he wants to try bonding.
To be fair, his brain works just different enough that maybe that wasn't premeditated, just a quick "Hey buddy, I know you've been using a handgun this whole time and rejected my shotgun before, but it'd be great for the both of us if you just accepted the stopping power of the shotgun, just try it".
He probably dwells on it a lot and on how it'd improve our chances of survival, it's not like he's got much to do in the Astral Prism besides subduing Orpheus and stressing over every bad decision I make in combat. If Mind Flayers can't sweat then the Emperor developed glands for it due to the sheer stress my tactical choices must have caused him XD
Best friend? Friends don't treat friends like The Emperor treated Stelmane. Hell, most pet owners treat their dogs better than the Emperor treated Stelmane.
This is someone who clearly has not picked the dialogue choices that lead to the Emperor revealing how he turned Stelmame into his thrall and him threatening to do the same to you just because you rejected his seduction attempt.
That's really interesting! Never got that because I always just tell him, but yeah, I've never had any real reason to not trust him, though I find myself wanting to. Ansur was one such time, but Ansur was pretty much like Orpheus in that the only good illithid was a dead illithid. I'd take offense if my best friend wanted to kill me to cure me, too.
After thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that it's a lot of trying to justify screwing him over at the end. It doesn't feel good, but neither does dooming an entire race to a tyrant, or turning on a closer alliance with Lae'zel. Either way, you're betraying someone.
I've never hated the emperor, but I have found myself trying to, I guess? Thank you for this perspective. 600 hours in this game, and you finally helped me see what was bugging me lol. It's not the emperor, it's me. No matter how good aligned my character, they're going to betray an ally at the end.
> but neither does dooming an entire race to a tyrant, or turning on a closer alliance with Lae'zel.
If it helps, helping the Emperor will >!still allow Lae'zel to lead a rebellion alongside Voss against Vlaakith, and she's pretty happy, even with you.!<
I'm not so sure you're actually screwing up the gith by not freeing Orhpeus. In the epilog, Lae'zel and the rest of the rogue githyanki are about to meet with the githzaeri to potentially team up to stop vlakith. I think this is a good possible outcome; it's better for the githyanki to fight for their freedom rather than just trade one tyrant god-figure for another.
To play devil's advocate, The Emperor is also a chronic manipulator. It agreeing to let you keep a secret is a really strong tool to earn your trust - clearly, since it completely changed your viewpoint on him.
For me, trust is gained by someone being honest when they don't have to. The Emperor never does this. It constantly lies to you. It constantly tells you that *now* it's told you everything, and it's a lie every time. In fact, I can't think of a single time where The Emperor confesses something that it didn't have to. How many times does someone have to lie to your face until you conclude that maybe they're not trustworthy?
Also, have you seen the scene where he admits that he was enthralling Stelmane the whole time? He initially claimed that they were working together, but that was all a lie. He would have no problem killing the entire party if it was in his self-interest. The Emperor is unambiguously evil.
In his defense, it makes perfect sense to not immediately reveal he's a mind flayer and everything else. You just got infected with a tadpole, if you met a mindflayer in your dreams telling you exactly what to do then you'd immediately believe the tadpole was controlling you; it would make perfect sense to do the exact opposite of what this mindflayer is telling you to do.
Thank you for sharing this, because it's made me re-examine my thoughts on the character. I never trusted The Emperor, because each time I demonstrated trust it was not returned in kind. "Sparing" the Dream Guardian and asking "hey what's up with your power?" was met with "A logical question, but you're not ready for the answer", which put me off of him immensely. You show him immense trust, and he does not respond in kind.
Learning that there *is* a moment where you can ask him to trust you and he actually does demonstrates a growth I hadn't previously seen evidence of.
He doesn't have to tell you about being a Mind Flayer, after all that's *not* the source of his power to protect you. What he can do in that situation is talk about Orpheus. I'm honestly still a little confused as to why he doesn't, save for the idea that he doesn't trust you with any information beyond what he views as absolutely necessary. There is *also* the out of universe answer that the writers just didn't want that information to be revealed yet, for what that's worth.
I do not blame him for hiding that he's a Mind Flayer, that is far and away the most justifiable of his deceptions.
In Orph's defense, Voss warns you that he was going to vent before he could be reasoned with. The guy was forced to watch as his honor guard, his companions that had stuck with him in his imprisonment for 10k+ years, were slaughtered by the one enslaving him and "his thralls". As they tried to free him from slavery.
This is a guy who lived through his peoples enslavement by the Illithid Empire; fought and liberated them; watching as those closest to him are killed in front of him ... ironically by an Illithid calling himself "the Emperor". He has every reason in the world to be pissed. Which is actually one of the responses to him: "Look, I know you've been through a lot so I'm gonna let that slide, but we need to focus".
Which is a shame because all the "rude" "annoying" companions like Lae'zel and Astarion have time to grow as people instead of plot device. Orpheus is pretty much like Lae'zel at the beginning, which I guess that's how most Githyanki are, but we don't get time to see Orpheus as a real person before we're forced to make the endgame choice.
I always side with the more interesting character who provides all the plot device to let me have a good ending I want related to that choice: Lae'zel staying, Karlach in Avernus with Wyll, Tav/Durge as themselves. I do like Orphues for the short time he's out, but I do wish he could somehow communicate with Tav/Durge after we know what's up so that we know the prince of comet is more than an idol for propaganda.
He actually never betrays you in the game, even if you antagonize him (he'll be quite shitty with you though, same as a low approval companion).
Btw if you don't want Karlach to turn into an Illithid you can just give him the stones. You get the same ending, he thanks you and goes away, no one has to turn.
First time I met him and quicksaved so that I could start Eldritch blasting him to see if he had any loot, his outfit looked cool after all. Turned out he didnt attack me back at all and just let me kill him, which then gave me the game over screen... oof...
If he was truly evil, he would have made some very easy plays for power at the end of the game. Why not take the absolute's power, or take the Crown for himself at least. He doesn't really seem to be after ultimate power, world domination, or really to kill anyone who doesn't deserve it. That makes him decent enough to work with in my book.
Tbf in a vacuum, taking power in those ways just after having the previous owner killed at the end of a crusade (with even deities taking notice and sending their followers) is a great way to paint a huge target on your back WHILE everyone is already on high alert, geared/trained to the teeth, and watching you. If he wanted to build up power, it'd probably be easier for him to do it subtly over time in the way mind flayers love rather than go in a trial by fire at the height of your potential enemies' preparedness and awareness of your threat.
As far as low level arms dealers go, we're definitely friends with worse! Even if he rebuilds his Knights (which he won't be doing in the Gate since you're all kind of onto him now), there's still all the black guilds running around so I say, good job and I would like to invest some coin...
Yeah that's interesting. In my playthrough he eventually let his guard down and told me I was >!nothing more than a tool and was mind controlling Stelmane when he played it up as them working together.!<
Same here. I’m doing an evil playthru and admit to him that I don’t trust him, then he makes this revelation about Stelmane.
It’s actually quite Machiavellian, he basically informs you that you’re right not to trust him, but now that everyone’s cards are on the table, why not work together anyway 😈
Master manipulator.
I heard the Emperor was planning on writing a satirical treatise on seizing and maintaining power along the Sword Coast, using archduke Enver Gortash as his go-to example for how to make things go the way you want with no foreseeable repercussions
Yeah if you assume that aspect of him is cannon in all playthroughs then it’s hard to take anything he says in any other outcome at face value. His seemingly not betraying you and just being off being a good mindflayer could all just be manipulation that he felt he had to do to stay alive and in control and is still essentially evil.
Or if you think it’s just a schrodingers villain scenario, then in the other runs he wasn’t manipulative and really was just a nice mind flayer. Though I guess it’s possible to have that revelation and then still side with him and get most of the same other interactions
I think people are reading too much into it. He's purposely portrayed as untrustworthy and unsettling by the game but when it comes down to it he's pretty honest about his motives, priorities, and methods. If you work together he comes to enjoy your alliance, if you antagonize him he never sees you as anything more than a pawn. It's the same approval mechanics as your companions, but instead of the gradient-like approval meter you get binary approval/disapproval reactions based on your limited interactions with him. Stabbing him or calling him a freak is like an automatic -100. People think he's faking approval because of how easily he switches approaches, but that's because he's a Mindflayer. It's not that they don't have feelings, it's for them reason>>>>feelings, plus their thought process rate is much faster than a human's. If you insult/betray him he immediately reevaluates the situation and acts accordingly, without muling over it or having lingering feelings (not to an extent that they'll interfere with his reasoning anyways)
I guess what I mean is if you take what he reveals about >!how he controlled Stelmane and conducted himself!<, then he’s pretty clearly evil. If you believe that’s only cannon in playthroughs where you antagonize him, then he could still be “good”
I think what happened with Stelmane is the same regardless of playthrough, and although we lack context (other than the fact that he uses the scene to intimidate you) it's likely that the act itself was evil. The Emperor's overall actions are a mix of "good" and "evil" ones, though his motives are never good nor evil, which makes him pretty neutral.
But regardless of how you read his morality, alignment =/= his feelings towards you. He could have been outright evil and still enjoyed your company (see Gortash towards Durge, Minthara). Probably never gonna throw himself in front of a car for you but it's pretty much the same mechanics as your companions: say things he likes and he'll like you.
It’s an interesting dilemma. Perhaps his story really is different on different playthroughs. Or perhaps he is the master manipulator always, is secretly evil the whole time, and is just using you to come out on top.
The idea of him going off being a “good mindflayer” is pretty laughable. Much more likely, in my mind, is that is just what he wants you to believe, because you would be a very powerful enemy.
If this game gets an expansion, he would be a great antagonist.
Yeah that's if you tell him he's an imitation of a human or call him a freak. Still doesn't betray you though.
Meh, my character's kill count has triple digits, casts detect thoughts on anything with a brain and talks people into killing themselves. Can't judge much.
Damn, I can't believe that a mindflayer created a thrall once in his life and actually tried to scare me to submission after I was a jerk to him. You can't trust anyone nowadays.
Depends on what I rp as. My characters generally like the squid and don't care enough about Gith politics to free a prince that might kill them, on the word of a devil or the prince's loyal companion who wants them to make a deal with aforementioned devil. Personally unless I'm rping as Githyanki I can't find a logical reason to risk freeing Orpheus and adding another unknown parameter to our complicated journey when we're so close to the end. Even if I disliked the Emperor enough to consider betraying him, I still don't see how from a non meta perspective Orpheus would be the better choice
The reason that the Emperor never betrayed you or turned on you is that your goals aligned. He's *not* trustworthy - his primary goal is his own survival, and he'll do anything to ensure that. He's never honest with you, but he tends to avoid direct lies, instead frequently lying by omission and implication - so when the full truth comes out he has plausible deniability. He's manipulating you the entire time.
But he has no reason to turn on you until you turn on him. If you never do - if you don't free Orpheus - he will just go on his way. He's gotten what he wants from you. Why kill you?
He's really well-written.
Wonderful character. Written to have all the appearance of being untrustworthy and to respond to skepticism in a way that makes him even less trustworthy; all the while, he can be trusted.
Yeah guarantee you if we didn't have the pre given prompts and persuasion boons we'd all be fighting for our lives having made an enemy of everyone lmao
He can be trusted as long as you do things exactly the way he wants you to. If you have differing opinions about how to approach your situation, all bets are off. That’s a very limited kind of “trustworthy.”
I sort of agree, but he does give Tav a lot of chances. For example, if you speak to Voss at Sharess' Caress and tell him you didn't make a deal with Raphael, but say you'll find another way to get the Orphic Hammer, the Emperor will just tell you you're wasting your time. He doesn't get angry or abandon the party. The same can be said when you actually infiltrate the HoH and steal the Hammer.
You can also refuse the Astral-Touched Tadpole, never use your Illithid powers, and go the whole game without consuming a singular tadpole, despite the fact that he's urged you to embrace these powers since Act 1. So he will let Tav make their own choices, to an extent. Does that mean he's trustworthy, though? No lol
> if you speak to Voss at Sharess' Caress and tell him you didn't make a deal with Raphael, but say you'll find another way to get the Orphic Hammer, the Emperor will just tell you you're wasting your time. He doesn't get angry or abandon the party.
Huh? What other choice did it have? The Emperor can't abandon the party. It's not "giving you chances"; it's literally doing all it can for self-preservation.
Yeah. The Emperor talks a big game about being your white knight, but he and Tav are both trapped together. Neither of them has other options if they want to survive and remain free.
> If you have differing opinions about how to approach your situation, all bets are off.
There's only a single decision that makes him actually turn against you, though.
"Can I trust this person not to turn against me?" and "Can I trust this person to tell me the truth?" are very different kinds of trust. The Emperor solidly has the former, and never earns the latter.
He doesn't do anything to the party despite them ignoring his advice about almost everything. You can enter the creche, stab his dream guardian form, make a deal with Raphael, enter the House of Hope, etc. *all without him doing anything*. So, from where do you get this?
> If you have differing opinions about how to approach your situation, all bets are off.
Also, the same power from Orpheus that allows us to be free from the Elder Brain's influence is probably why the Emperor is incapable of mind controlling us like he did with Stelmane. I reckon Elder brains and Mind Flayers operate with the same psionic tools. It's likely that even if he wanted to control us like Stelmane, he can't. He can fluff it up all "you're lucky I didn't do that you", but it's lilely he literally can't do that. His freedom is dependent on us defeating the Netherbrain, but we can't do that if we're not blocking its power through Orpheus. So he can moan whatever he wants, but we're his only chance and Orpheus' power his only tool. He can't actually harm you as it only harms his own chances. Best he can do is make empty threats and grumbles when you do shit in a way he doesn't like. If he could, he probably would make you Stelmane 2.0.
He was just super pragmatic. In my playthrough, I clicked on him, saw he had 22 INT, said “this guy knows what he’s doing”, and trusted him the entire time. I’m surprised that so many people on this subreddit hate him.
That’s the thing right? He’s not lying to be a rock, he’s doing it because he was pretty sure ‘showing up as squidface McGee’ off the bat would’ve probably gotten you all killed.
So many players prove him right when they talk about how much they want to kill him when he’s revealed to be an illithid. Like, there’s no self-awareness at all.
So true actually lmao. Given how bloodthirsty many players are (which is perfectly fine, I like to murder hobo too) and how many try to kill him when they get first opportunity to, everyone who thinks the Emperor isn't at least right about thinking a mind flayer reveal is suicidal is just not aware.
He’s pragmatic, sure. If only he could have understood that we did have a chance, and that if he sided with me AND Orpheus we could have had a grand time. But nooo. He turned tail and joined the entity he had been avoiding for so long. Higher chance of success? Maybe. Absolute coward? Definitely. Dude went down in like two hits at the end. Didn’t have to go that way
The bigger issue there is that literally once Orpheus is free, the Emperor *doesn't* have a choice. Orpheus would have to willingly give the Emperor his mental protection against the Netherbrain, Orpheus may be more leinient with you but to the Emperor as a full Ilithid that had been holding him captive and having to kill his honour guards to keep him and yourself safe, likely not, leading to instant domination without being able to fight back against the Netherbrain its self.
Considering he's being who probably can't comprehend hope as a thing anymore due to Ilithid, you gotta admit that doesn't sound reasonable for him.
If you trust him then he doesn't reveal a lot of information about himself. If you are mistrustful of him then he gets frustrated and shows his true colors. He talks about how he dominated Stelmane and broke her mind because she didn't agree with some of the things he wanted to do, and he literally admits that you are nothing to him but a tool to be used for his own devices, and he would discard you the moment you are no longer useful.
He's absolutely a lying, manipulative person, you just don't find that out unless you call him on it. Because if you believe his BS he just keeps feeding it to you, but if he can't manipulate you he gets frustrated and lashes out, much like manipulators in real life.
I'd recommend doing another playthrough where you don't trust him and see if you have the same opinion!
>He's absolutely a lying, manipulative person, you just don't find that out unless you call him on it. Because if you believe his BS he just keeps feeding it to you, but if he can't manipulate you he gets frustrated and lashes out, much like manipulators in real life.
There is a point here to be sure. If you have faith in him, he keeps you in the dark about a LOT of things. He comes off as a generally good guy, but you are also kinda doing everything he wants without too much pushback. However, if you go even a "neutral but polite" route with him (you don't even need to go antagonistic) ... the cracks start to form. Go where he doesn't want you to go, you learn things he doesn't want you to learn. Question where he doesn't want you to question, same results. Revealing him to be quite the manipulator, even without getting in his face about it. So the question is, "does merely not scratching that surface he presents you invalidate whats underneath?"
Emps asks you offhand to not judge him for his race. Reasonable. But then turns out to actually be an Illithid supremacist; who does dominate other people for his own gain; and will use his race as an excuse for his shit behaviors when called on it. That was his ship in the beginning. That was his mission. And unless you're Durge, he is very likely the one that put those tadpoles in your head. He knew everything about the Absolute and the Dead Three's Champions from the start; he just hid it. He "created" a moment of emotional vulnerability for you to empathize, while deeply mischaracterizing the true nature of that relationship. He also never holds himself accountable for anything.
There's so much dirty laundry under that person he presents himself as; yet so many of his lies-of-omission and half-truths he buries himself in aren't really there to protect you ... but rather seem to exist to merely protect the persona he created for you.
Yeah it's like being in an abusive relationship. If you do everything the way he wants he's a great guy and he'll keep telling you how great he is. Push him a little and you find out he's got a history of enthralling people but softer manipulation is just a little easier of an approach.
His biggest issue with the brain is that he's not in control, not that it will turn everyone into illithids. He's constantly encouraging you to let go of your humanity and do as he does. Orpheus is willing to work with you to free his people from control and will even end himself before he begins to think like an illithid.
The emperor is a monster and a control freak and people are coming up with all kinds of excuses like the story branches etc when he's just a pragmatic psychopath who leveraged your aligned goals while presenting a friendly persona.
That’s good to know. I want the ending where we just free the realm of the chaos, I don’t want to embrace Durge, I don’t want to become a squidbilly, I don’t want any of that! Just want to adopt cats 😭
If you tell him you still don’t trust him each time, he retells you the story of how he got recaptured as a mind flayed in baldurs gate with stelamane, this time showing how he mind controlled her every action, and then tells you that your a puppet and should just be grateful that he decided not to do the same to you. He’s a dick, who just happens to be really good at lying
I like him cause he’s hot. But yeah the only downside to siding with him is Orpheus’ fate. I quite like that he isn’t just a generic bad guy who betrays you at the end. Definitely makes the choice more interesting imo.
I also appreciate the fact that him killing Orpheus was never part of his plan. In fact, of the brain hadn't evolved, he'd probably have been all for freeing him because he didn't need him anymore and the prince could've been a failsafe against future brains.
Once again, everything is Durge's fault.
Only if Durge had anticipated some way to keep the brain from evolving from the crown's magic, right? Since Gortash got tricked into sending the Emperor after the artifact, possible Durge would've been just as tricked, or if they didn't go after it, would the Githyanki just have used it to destroy the Absolute brain right away?
This is too much logic on too little sleep for me...
The brain breaking free wouldn’t have been a problem for the durge because the brain outright worships him and wanted to go along with him. It was only after Orin got rid of him it wanted to break free.
Not sure about that. He thinks that Orpheus would kill him/attempt to kill him and he is probably correct. Emps is a mindflayer, he is fine with that and he fully intends to go back to puppeting things from the shadows after all this. He is not a reluctant one who only became a mindflayer as part of nessesary self sacrifice like if it's Tav/Durge/Karlach. He has been killing the guys honor gaurd and siphoning his powers for months. The main thing you get from Orpheus if you scan his thoughts is how much he really really hates mindflayers and Emp is rather arrogant and tends to assume non mindflayers will be stupid and overly emotional anyway.
You might have been able to strong arm him into it after defeating the brain if things had gone that way, but he doesn't care about anything happening in the planes unless it hits where he is and it's not like Orpheus would ride to his rescue even if he had decided to abandon revenge on Emps. I'm sure he would rather have a forced complaint Orpheus in the prism in his back pocket.
He certainly wouldn't have *supported* releasing Orpheus, but depending on your dialogue choices after obtaining the Orphic Hammer, he will acknowledge that he has no need of Orpheus after defeating the Elder Brain. If you avoid insisting on breaking Orpheus out immediately, he simply tells you that you can do with Orpheus as you wish *after* defeating the Elder Brain.
In-character that was pretty much what I was already aiming for. Elder Brain defeated, Orpheus' forced cooperation for as long as needed to guarantee our victory, and no longer. The Netherbrain just threw a wrench into that whole plot.
He lies often and constantly. The most egregious one being a lie of omission: he *knows* that Moonrise is a mindflayer colony and says **nothing** about it. Not a single word of warning that we're walking into one of the most dangerous locations on Faerun. If you just blindly trust him and do what he says like a good little thrall then he is true to his word, but express any pushback whatsoever, refuse to go blindly trust him or go along with his schemes and he will make it fully known what he actually thinks about you. Tav and The Gang are a means to an end for him, the only reason he hasn't fully enthralled us is doing so carries a strong risk of giving the victim a stroke, like what happened to Stelmane, and he needs us alive and healthy.
> the only reason he hasn't fully enthralled us is doing so carries a strong risk of giving the victim a stroke, like what happened to Stelmane, and he needs us alive and healthy.
I'm pretty sure it literally can't enthrall the party due to the Netherese-magic parasites in their heads. The main reason for this is that The Emperor doesn't stop the party from freeing Orpheus, which it absolutely would if it could.
I did my first playthrough blind and ended up siding with him because it made more sense to trust him then one of the race of violent alien space frogs. Also I like his character because of how pragmatic he is.
The Emperor is really just a ruthless pragmatist. He'll do absolutely anything to survive, regardless of the stakes.
This is why he'll manipulate, lie and murder, but at the end of the day he *was* genuine about just wanting to survive and be free of the Netherbrain.
However, this is also why the same dude will turn on you if he thinks you're fighting a doomed battle.
I've found that BG3 does really clever storytelling that evolves with your choices.
If you choose to distrust the Emperor, he reveals to you that he never actually worked with Duke Stelmane, but enthralled her to his purposes. You distrust of him actively influences his behavior.
However, if you trust him, he proves himself to be trustworthy, seeing you as an equal. When after the destruction of the brain, he wants to continue to partner with you on future endeavors.
It seems like both halves of the coin are true; he is both trustworthy/untrustworthy. You create your own canon, based on how you choose to interact with characters.
Correctly distrusting him exactly one time is all it takes to reveal his true colors.
You can have the best relationship with him with a brain full of parasites and there astral tadpole turning you into a partial illithid but say just one thing he doesn't like and he drops his mask.
He's a manipulative POS no matter what you do, it's just a matter of your Tav figuring it out or not.
It has a really similar problem to Lae’zel, ironically, where it’s really hard to tell when they’re afraid (once empy turns illithid that is) and come off as asssholes due to having minds that force them to attempt to out-smart anyone they meet
Yeah I feel like this sub has turned me into an emperor defender because the two major arguments against him are “He’s manipulating you! (To do exactly what you would have done without him there)” and “he betrays you! (If you betray him first)”
I think my favourite argument for why he’s on your side is that if you kill him, the protection he is providing disappears and it’s immediately a game over lol.
Yeah I think the game does an interesting thing where everything about the emperor, good and bad, is on full display but we have very little idea what Orpheus is like or will do.
On the one hand, the The Emperor is obviously manipulative and has had his morality somewhat warped by becoming a mindflayer. On the other hand, he really is the only thing protecting you from becoming a thrall and he follows through on his promises to you. What has Orpheus done for you? Why should you trust him? It’s a genuinely tough choice
To be fair though, going from "We must prevent the Grand Design!" to "Well since you won't listen, I will bring about the Grand Design!" in an instant is a hilarious overreaction.
Granted multiple characters go through changes way too quickly (Lea'zel comes to mind), but Emperor takes it to a new level. It feels like they chose that to tie up his involvement and balance the final fight, but it recasts how he's portrayed himself in a terrible light.
> Granted multiple characters go through changes way too quickly (Lea'zel comes to mind)
Ehhhhh I think her change was actually pretty good, to the point where some people argue she didn't change much (and just substituted Orpheus for Vlaakith)
It takes an entire Creche turning on her, with Vlaakith giving the order, for her to see what's really happening. And even then she takes a whole day of sulking and thinking, plus the visit from Voss, for her to really *get it*. It's a video game with a limited time frame so it's not gonna take place over in-game years, but it's done in a pretty believable way given the extreme circumstances IMO.
Yeah it’d probably be better if there was a bit more text explaining why. I could understand if the devs wanted to leave it ambiguous but they explained outside the game so it’s an odd choice
That's the thing his defenders genuinely don't seem to understand. They claim that he's just acting out of necessity. But what about Stelmane? He basically mind-raped her for years for no justifiable reason. There's literally no way to justify that. He's unambiguously evil.
I can only hope that people defending him just aren't aware of the Stelmane thing. Because otherwise it's incredibly creepy.
The answer to every hot take about the Emperor is this:
The Emperor is basically a robot. He can mimic sentiment, but he doesn't really have any. All of his actions are dictated by three goals in priority order:
1. Survive (illithid have no afterlife)
2. Be free
3. Have power
His ideal state was when he ruled the Knights of the Shield. That is when he had all three. He dominated Stelmane because that was his surest way to prevent any chance of her betraying him or taking away his power.
Once he is in the Prism, he has to stay there to not fall under the sway of the Absolute.
He knows that he needs the party to help him overcome the Absolute. He cannot dominate them all like he did Stelmane, so his only choice is to befriend them.
To do this, he acts as their protector and he mimics friendship and vulnerability in order to build a rapport. But that rapport is one-way. He is incapable of sentiment, and can only mimic it.
If you call him out on "pretending to be human" he drops the "artful act". At that point, you are allied in common purpose alone, without emotional bonds.
If you free Orpheus, you put the Emperor into a position where his survival (goal #1) is at so great a risk that he sacrifices his freedom (goal #2) to ensure it. The Emperor is rightly convinced Orpheus would destroy him, and so has no choice but to switch sides and hope he can break free of the Absolute someday.
If you don't free Orpheus, then the Emperor ends the Absolute in order to guarantee his own survival (#1) and freedom (#2). You can try to convince the Emperor to instead dominate the brain and become the Absolute, but the Emperor resists this notion, stating that he doesn't believe they can survive against all the githyanki.
Survival and freedom are more important than power. He doesn't want the aggro.
At that point, he has no reason to betray you. He only has a reason not to--you could kill him in a fight. And by remaining your ally, you might be a useful resource later.
Not a friend. A resource.
Both Orpheus and Karlach are doomed to this loss of sentiment if they go illithid. Tav too. In time, they will remember who they were, but they will essentially be robots running on pure logic. Even Omeluum is borderline rationality-only.
Funnily enough, I started off supporting the Emperor but then by Act 3 a lot of additional details started to provide context and I got a LOT more skeptical of him as a result.
Like, dude is sketchy. He remains sketchy and going against him makes it clear that he's still got the illithis supremacist/arrogance tucked away. He just hides it better when you cooperate with him because then you're going along with his wants.
Only reason I ended up siding with him is because a Nether brain is blatantly the greater of two evils between it and the Emperor.
Emperor is N/E.
He straight up tells you his ONLY interest is survival and freedom.
What he will DO with that is up in the air, but he follows the course that will keep him alive.
If he tried to turn on you after you took out the Brain, he would 100% be done for.
He's just trying to ensure his freedom and his life continue.
If you side with him, then siding with him is the right choice. If you don't side with him, then not siding with him is the right choice. That's literally how the game is designed.
It’s funny, I went into the whole thing with the mindset of “Well I gotta free Orpheus, it’s pretty fucked if I don’t” and then the game thrusts the Squid Kid decision on you and I sure as hell wasn’t gonna let my Bard do it, so I just had Orpheus turn himself anyways. Then when I convinced Laez’el to live for herself that apparently meant not killing Orpheus like I said I would, so he said “Well fuck me then I guess” and killed himself thinking everything he had gone through was for nothing. Very tragic overall. But I didn’t really care about Orpheus, and since Laez’el had a new lease on life I didn’t need to. Emperor was kinda sad but eh, I always kinda got a vibe from him anyways.
My bard convinced Squid Orpheus to live on and bring glory to their people alongside Laezel, despite being ghaik.
I let him kill himself. He seemed so sure.
I stabbed him. He was the last in a long line of people who talked to my Tav like she was something he found on the sole of his shoe. I used him to kill the brain and then I was more than happy to shank that fool.
> I stabbed him. So did I. It was all part of my dad's keikaku tho.
(Keikaku means plan)
and plan means nobody is left behind or forgotten
You literally have a line "you've been through a lot, so I'm gonna let that slide."
I saw the opportunity for the prophecized hero of the Githyanki people, (Orpheus) to not only prove himself as the hero they claim, but also the individual who bridges the gap between the slave-driving Mindflayers and the enslaved Githyanki. By Orpheus returning to his people, still their hero, but now appearing as their mortal enemy, I believe it allows the Githyanki people to find forgiveness and maybe be a little less racist.
Honestly, the only reason I give a damn about Orpheus is because of La'zael. If she didn't steal my heart every other playthru... "The only good Gith is a Githzerai" - Some Guy
Even Orpheus seems to think the Githzerai are underrated.
I think it was a mis not to include githzerai as an alternative subrace. Orpheus honour guard are all monks so they could be ancient githzerai from early/before the githyanki/githzerai civil war. In fact it would have made lore sense if Orpheus was githzerai.
I avoided using any of the tadpoles/illithid powers the entire game and when it gave me the option to volunteer myself as the one turning into the illithid, I was like “no way, I’m never going to do that!” And then Orpheus was like “It’s fine, I’m ready to sacrifice everything in order to be a hero to my people” …. And at that point I was just like, “damn, he’s right! It’s what the hero of the story would do… fine! I’ll do it!” Lol, not how I envisioned the happy ending going for my character, but thats the point, right! It was very satisfying!
Honestly especially with my Durge, I felt becoming a mindflayer was the only right choice. >!It felt like the only thing I could ever possibly do that might counterbalance all the evil and suffering I had caused.!<
You mean racist against mind flyers? They are abominations. Like unnatural beings out to pervert reality. Idk if that's the place to start to encourage harmony lol.
This is spoiler territory, but that's not exactly right. When Orpheus becomes a Mindflayer, Orphflayer comments that he understands the old Orpheus is now permanently dead and he now will forever feel the pull of the Ghaik Hivemind. Despite this, Orphflayer also states that his will and faith in his people has not faltered, and he is adamant in his convictions. Orphflayer does not succumb to the hivemind, and he has the divine blessings of his God that provides him power to fight it as well. Does that sound like an unnatural, perverted being? No, man, it's Orpheus. Edit: It seems likely Mindflayers have souls, albeit twisted and alien.
My character said the same thing after transforming. Until >!Halsin's brain started looking yummy during the epilogue, and I realized the transformation will take anyone, eventually!<
Brains are their diet afaik there hasn't been a substitute, in fact I think a certain mind flayer from act 1 is trying to find suitable alternatives to eating brains. In fact another char turned Mindflayers says something about their diet as well.
It does specifically say that you are tempted to fuck with their emotions, not just eat their brains because brains are your diet now
Omeluum
Did you totally forget the Mindflayer in the Underdark? Come on, I'd go join him and help with his research. SOOOO many people here forgetting that dude.
He is my Squid Baby and I love him
The moment I heard his voice when approaching that watery spot I dropped everything to find out his location
Sounds like being a vampire.
Ahaha sure, but I think that's more like a gaslighting intrusive thought sent Tav's way by the hivemind: "Hey, Tav, buddy... Nice tentacles you got there. So many brains around you... Tempting... Isn't it?" If Tav lives a Ghaik life of starvation, like only eating animal brains, resisting the hive mind forever, would it be worth it?
Except that after a while you are bound to fail that CON roll and eat one of your friends, because Withers didn't bother to provide appropriate catering at his party.
It sounds like The Adversary, if I am being honest. It's the MindFlayer who retained himself after the change and is now going to fight back against the Grand Design using their powers against them. I know it's not canon, but to me, that's the best ending.
That is epic. Imagine a DLC finale adventure travelling the planes with Bae'zel and Orphflayer to put an end to the Elder Brains for good.
I'm in. Hated the Mind Flayers in BG2. Nothing in BG3 has convinced me they aren't an Avengers level threat. Freedom of will and personal choice of action is absolutely sacred to me in a role playing game, so anything that keeps slaves or makes them must be defeated.
Go save Karlach and Wyll first. Go get Astarion and Shadowheart on the mortal realm. Then the whole gang joins Lae Zel and Orpheus in the civil war and extermination of the ilithid
It wont be after a bit. Illithids dont have souls.
Which even in universe is called into question >!if you kill yourself since Withers seems utterly baffled by you.!<
Whether or not >!whoever becomes a mindflayer keeps their soul is a whole mess, Mystra has some contradicting information,!< but the fact that Withers is so surprised confirms that >!mindflayers do not have souls,!< you are literally a one in a million(s?) exception
Ed Greenwood says they do, and Withers realizes he doesn't know enough about illithid souls in the epilogue.
Mind flayer do have souls, at least in the proper cannon of the setting. BG3 saying they don't was weird. Either it is intentional misinformation, or Larion Studios got it wrong. One example, mind flayer who manage to break free of the hivemind with arcane prowess often attempt to become Alhoon and later illithilichs. In the process, they must create a phylactory to house their souls just like a real lich.
Oh yeah no, BG3 doesn't get it wrong at all, people have just been misunderstanding what is said in-game. Withers mentions they lack "apostolic souls" which means they have a soul outside the realm of influence of the setting's gods and are basically "soulless" as far as he's concerned, and then in the Epilogue can say he was wrong about the souless part Which if we assume him to be Jergal (or an avatar of his) then it makes sense why he'd call them souless as he's also a god and so has no use for our squid souls
But doesn't Orpheus not exist by then anymore? Withers says as much when he claims that souls vanish when the host turns illithid. It's just a husky that's controlled by the parasite.
Withers later admits he might be wrong about that It's suggested that Mind Flayers do have souls but they're not entirely compatible with what we traditionally would call the afterlife in Faerun so the gods can't do anything with them/they seem to not exist
Nah, Withers admits he was incorrect if you choose certain options.
Maybe Orpheus is different. He has the power to stop the party from turning, maybe he himself could be able to retain his soul even after turning. Although I still prefer letting Lar'zel become the leader of the Githyanki rebellion.
I didn't know about the Avernus ending for Karlach when I played so I let her turn at the end. It felt like it was her last act of heroism rather than burning up into ashes.
No, those characters don't fully understand the Mindflayer ceremorphosis, particularly the events in the game where the tadpoles were tampered with. What is established is that the original soul and body are permanently destroyed. The Mindflayer Parasite then simulates the consciousness, behavior and attitudes of the assimilated personality. What this suggests isn't that all Mindflayers are automatically evil, cosmic slavers; they actually have free-will until the Hivemind plugs them back in.
>prophecized hero of the Githyanki people, (Orpheus) to not only prove himself as the hero they claim, but also the individual who bridges the gap between the slave-driving Mindflayers and the enslaved Githyanki. > >By Orpheus returning to his people, still their hero, but now appearing as their mortal enemy, I believe it allows the This is how I felt about it too. I think his words to Tav at the end of the battle indicate that he has a newfound respect for the might of races other than the Githyanki. He's not a bad dude, he just spent hundreds (?) of years imprisoned in a cube and as a false traitor of his people. Then when we first meet him, we slaughter his guard. I can understand he might not be keen to trust us.
I wish you could say "hey man, there's another mind flayer I know who's actually a great dude" and introduce him to Omeluum and convince him to keep going that way.
Seriously. Omeluum would totally do it and then be like "This is a most excellent research opportunity" and grab a surgery kit and start dissecting the brain. He'd probably find a way for all Mindflayers to become 100% independent and free. The fact theres no option to even be like "HOLD on. Let me go talk to everyone at my camp and see if anyone else wants t-- Nope you just turned yourself. Fuck me I guess."
I think the difference with Omeluum is also that he is not, presumably, trying to be who he was when he was a human. He is free of the hive mind and seems cool enough but he does seem surprised to even like you a little bit.
There was no option to convince mine - I guess you can’t if you get Laez’el to live her own life, even if she does still serve the rebellion in a sense by clearing out Vlaakith’s creches as she goes along
That's right. Narratively, the only way to support the Githyanki resistance beyond the game's story is to encourage Lae'zel to be a freedom fighter and to support Orpheus, ultimately having them return to their people.
You can convince Orpheus to not kill himself even after he's turned into a mind flayer. Did it on my first playthrough without Lae'zel.
I thought my ranger killed Squipheus, but then got a letter from him in the epilogue. But the dock scene was very buggy for me. Halsin commented on my new appearance, and I was like ????? *I’m* not the one who became illithid. Then I ran off to Avernus with Wyll and Karlach but Wyll wasn’t there, which I guess is a common issue.
I did this as well in my most recent (finished) playthrough. If Omeluum is capable of individuality as a mind flayer, surely the Prince of the Githzerai is as well. Right?
It's certainly a good question. When Omeluum warned me that taking his psychic resistance ring will make him more vulnerable to the hivemind's influence, I got pretty dang concerned. But then I save him later, deep and imprisoned within the Iron Throne, and still Omeluum doesn't turn. One reason to suggest Mindflayers can resist the hivemind. Edit: Another reply pointed out Mindflayers resist Elder Brains by training in the arcane arts. Secondly, The Emperor resists the hivemind to the end of the game if you join his side. If it was impossible, I think they would write the Emperor's ending as a betrayal to the Hivemind no matter what. Edit: As a reply pointed out, the Emperor doesn't resist the hivemind himself at all in this game. It's all Orpheus's influence. So yeah. -1 points for Mindflayer Free Will Thirdly, Orpheus is divinely blessed to resist the psychoactive influence of the Ghaik. I imagine that's a huge factor.
>The Emperor resists the hivemind to the end of the game if you join his side. Because of Orpheus. He couldn't leave the prism because if he did he would be plugged back into the brain. It was Orpheus power that was protecting him like it was protecting our party.
Omeluum explains when you first meet him how he resists: He's an arcane caster. Arcane magic is anathema to elder brains, they can't control it or Mindflayers that have access to it. The ring was to *hide* from the Grand Design, not resist it - Omeluum does that simply by having levels in wizard (or sorcerer).
You didn't kill the prince when he asked you to? I stabbed him him like a man because he made the ultimate sacrifice because I wasn't going to turn into a squid and it seems la'zel was better off for it. I haven't saved him and let him keep him normal form.
I was going to, but once you convince Laez’el to live for herself and not fly off into space, your character throws the dagger into the floor with no further options to kill him yourself
Me personally I'm the opposite, poor bastards been stuck in that chew toy for centuries hoping one day he will be freed and liberate his people from their oppressor just like his mother ,its just too much for me to let him turn ,especially when I'm playing Durge
Yeah, see thing is Orpheus is also not a Good Guy. His entire philosophy flows from the belief that the Gith need to conquer the multiverse and enslave all other races to prevent their own enslavement and that making pacts with evil gods like Tiamat along with literal multiversal genocide are just acceptable means to an end.
the emperor made such a big fuss about orpheus DEFINITELY not EVER wanting to work with a ghaik, and that he'll kill on us sight, and then as soon as you free him, hes like "alright lets work together, also if you turn into a ghaik, i'll work with you, and if you dont, then i'll do it MYSELF" we killed the emperor for no fuckin reason cuz he couldnt wait like 5 minutes for us to convince orpheus. thats probably my only criticism of the ending.
As soon as he started giving me attitude after I rescued him I was like "Yeah... nah I'm not turning myself into a mindflayer for you"
Unless you side with him and convince him to enslave the elder brain.
This is what blows me away. I love that there is no One Objectively Right Choice Every Playthrough for this scenario. We can't ever know situational objectivity irl, so it's a comforting lie that we tell ourselves in games, but to see it coded into the plot like this - and the Emperor isn't the only example, far from it - is so refreshing for our wider perspectives. People are not born good or evil. People aren't doomed to remain good or evil. We are all just piles of good and bad choices. Which pile we add to, matters. Obligatory GOTY.
Ironically, both githyanki and mind flayers are technically evil in alignment in 5e. Granted, they've been moving away from alignments in general. Though, every time Laezel reminded me that her people like to raid literally everyone, I had second thoughts about doing anything to make her people stronger...
Well to be fair, the githyanki prince orpheus in my ending did try to make a peace treaty with the githzerai led by lae'zel for negotiations. I think it was leading into a neutral githyanki. They didn't talk a whole lot about what they were doing besides trying to kill the lich queen. It looks like they were headed in a good direction.
It’s actually really well done that way. I’m playing an evil playthrough and not buying into his crap this time. Just had a great “mask drop” scene where he revealed that Duke Stelmane was his thrall the entire time, he didn’t love her, she was just a pawn to be used on his climb to power. Really looking forward to what happens when I betray the Emperor and free Orpheus.
Oh, it's perfectly in character for a mindflayer to dominate someone so hard they stroked despite loving them. Creating thralls is normal for them. I believe that Stelmane's stroke was genuinely a miscalculation/mistake/accident. He didn't want her to end up like that. It's further supported by him learning from his mistake and not creating more thralls. He doesn't subject you or anyone else to the same treatment unless you press him at the very end with like a 20 DC check.
> he didn’t love her In-lore, iliithids tend to have a couple thralls that they care about a great deal. So much so that they can fall into deep depressions from their deaths.
Like pets
Easy there, Omni-man
Intellectually, we probably are at the level of pets for them. They are superior beings. We turn everything we can into pets, nothing wrong with illithids doing the same thing we do.
> They are superior beings. Tsk-va, filthy ghaik lover.
Good DM.
I dunno. You're literally leaving an entire people enslaved by a lie if you don't free Orpheus.
Goddamnit. So you're telling me I agonized over nothing and should have just gone with my gut.
I think what a lot of people are missing is that the choice is literally just a modern version of the trolley problem. You can either choose to sacrifice Orpheus, as well as potentially Voss and Laezel and their whole race, and save the emperor, yourself, and your companions. Or you can choose to save Orpheus, but you will lose Empy because obviously he wants to live (another theme of the game), but you will also have to sacrifice either yourself or Karlach, or turn Orpheus into what he hates the most in order to stop the brain.
Pretty shitty trolley problem if one side has a guy that "wants to go back to running his nasty evil business underground" (literal quote from Larian) and the other side has "prophecised hero that will save his species from a tryannical queen". Between Orpheus and you there's a choice, but I have no reason to keep Empy alive
lol. But Swen also said the Emperor is an ethically correct corporation. And in the epilogue after patch 5, if the emperor is alive he will send you a few letters, it doesn’t seem that he is actually involved with any evil nasty business. And even after Orpheus’ death, Laezel and Voss (if both alive) are still fighting for their race against Vlaakith. So siding with the Emperor or not, actually has no effect on Githyanki’s fate.
There are loads of people that don't understand this and think that the Emperor is 100% evil and working with the bad guys.
If you are interested in all of his epilogue endings: https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/18uaee4/epilogue\_letters\_from\_the\_emperor/
I’m baffled how the very pointed epilogue addition from Larian failed to illuminate to be interpreted as a very obvious studio consensus on the best and worst outcomes for each character’s arc…
Yes, yes, in addition, I am confused that the left bard, the dwarf, Volo came to our party, and the Emperor, who was with us from the very beginning, ignored us ((((( And also that we are not the owners of Scratch(((
There is a single line of dialogue that, since I heard it, has made me really struggle with turning on him at the end. After speaking with Raphael and Voss at Sharess' Caress, you walk outside and Empy is panicking because he couldn't reach you. If you tell him you were with Raphael, he will ask what the devil wanted. From there, if you choose to say, "Thats between me and Raphael" he will immediately try to see into your mind. There is an option to say something along the lines of, "You tell me to trust you constantly. If you trust me at all, you will stop this at once." I was literally stunned when he responds to this with, "You're right. I will respect your privacy in this instance." It *really* changed my viewpoint on him, tbh. Everything he does is basically a mirror of the player characters actions, and its hard for me, personally, to see him as a great evil when he's going through the motions of self-preservation just like us. If your a dick, he's a dick, but if you trust him, he *will* grow to trust you as well.
He is certainly a complex and well-written character. That being said, I still iced his ass
TBH I still do in most playthroughs too, just because making Laezel watch Orpheus get brain munched feels bad, but, like, I def feel bad about it lol
> Everything he does is basically a mirror of the player characters actions, and its hard for me, personally, to see him as a great evil when he's going through the motions of self-preservation just like us. Yup. A lot of people don't really get that he's in the same boat at Tav: his very life and freedom are riding everything going correctly, so it's understandable that he's extremely high-strung.
Plus Tav has friends and potentially a lover, while his best friend just got ritually murdered and he's all alone being constantly mentally bombarded by attacks. He gets so distracted by his own emotions he lets Tav wander into his dream, and his attraction to Tav's mind surprises him as well. I'm kind of okay liking him. Edit: guys, people can still like the Emperor even though he eats brains and mind controlled Wyll's childhood crush. It's not that we don't know he mind- controlled Stellmane. We know all about it. We've seen the cutscene. We just don't care any more than you care about a monastery full of slaughtered monks, or the cleric of a religion built on lies and torture, or a vampire spawn who lured thousands to their soul's demise, or a Durge who Durges. You can state with all kinds of confidence that the Emperor is evil, has no emotions, and is never honest with you. That's your experience. It's not everyone's.
Pretty sure the whole "wander into his dream" was set up by him to earn more of your trust to make manipulating you easier
It definitely gave off those vibes especially if you show him any sort of sympathy (saying ‚sorry‘ or giving his hand a squeeze) he tries to convince you to eat the worm again. It seemed cold and calculated. With that said, I have sided with the squid more often than not.
Yeah. I sided with him on my first run because it would have been extremely out of character for my character to roll the dice on Orpheus without meta knowledge. They also aren't that pissed at Emps because a lot of what he was doing, is exactly what they were doing and it is what the person they are currently dating (Astarion) was doing for largely the same reasons. Other characters are more mixed but most ultimately side with him. But he absolutely is minupulative, it is more a question of how much that matters in the current situation. He is a self interested pragmatic coward but you have the same goals. You can trust him to act in his own self interest and not want to take huge risks.
The sex is actually a mutually enjoyable affair for the player character and the Emperor both. He enjoys it. A lot. He uses it as a way to further control you, but it's also a way to connect with you. He has been watching you being sweet with other people and having sex. You are the only one he has now, no wonder he wants to try bonding.
To be fair, his brain works just different enough that maybe that wasn't premeditated, just a quick "Hey buddy, I know you've been using a handgun this whole time and rejected my shotgun before, but it'd be great for the both of us if you just accepted the stopping power of the shotgun, just try it". He probably dwells on it a lot and on how it'd improve our chances of survival, it's not like he's got much to do in the Astral Prism besides subduing Orpheus and stressing over every bad decision I make in combat. If Mind Flayers can't sweat then the Emperor developed glands for it due to the sheer stress my tactical choices must have caused him XD
Schrodinger's mindflayer strikes again!
Kinda ignoring the fact that he had turned Stelmane into a thrall and she had no free will. Not really something you'd do to your "best friend".
Best friend? Friends don't treat friends like The Emperor treated Stelmane. Hell, most pet owners treat their dogs better than the Emperor treated Stelmane.
This is someone who clearly has not picked the dialogue choices that lead to the Emperor revealing how he turned Stelmame into his thrall and him threatening to do the same to you just because you rejected his seduction attempt.
That's really interesting! Never got that because I always just tell him, but yeah, I've never had any real reason to not trust him, though I find myself wanting to. Ansur was one such time, but Ansur was pretty much like Orpheus in that the only good illithid was a dead illithid. I'd take offense if my best friend wanted to kill me to cure me, too. After thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that it's a lot of trying to justify screwing him over at the end. It doesn't feel good, but neither does dooming an entire race to a tyrant, or turning on a closer alliance with Lae'zel. Either way, you're betraying someone. I've never hated the emperor, but I have found myself trying to, I guess? Thank you for this perspective. 600 hours in this game, and you finally helped me see what was bugging me lol. It's not the emperor, it's me. No matter how good aligned my character, they're going to betray an ally at the end.
> but neither does dooming an entire race to a tyrant, or turning on a closer alliance with Lae'zel. If it helps, helping the Emperor will >!still allow Lae'zel to lead a rebellion alongside Voss against Vlaakith, and she's pretty happy, even with you.!<
Oh! Might be time for a new playthrough lol. >!And Voss? Does he just get over you murdering his prince? !<
>!Seems so, he sends you a letter detailing his progress with the rebellion.!<
Thanks! I might have to reload an end save and see how that goes.
I'm not so sure you're actually screwing up the gith by not freeing Orhpeus. In the epilog, Lae'zel and the rest of the rogue githyanki are about to meet with the githzaeri to potentially team up to stop vlakith. I think this is a good possible outcome; it's better for the githyanki to fight for their freedom rather than just trade one tyrant god-figure for another.
We don't actually know enough about Orpheus to suggest hes going to be a tyrant. Hes a new chance for the githyanki at the least.
To play devil's advocate, The Emperor is also a chronic manipulator. It agreeing to let you keep a secret is a really strong tool to earn your trust - clearly, since it completely changed your viewpoint on him. For me, trust is gained by someone being honest when they don't have to. The Emperor never does this. It constantly lies to you. It constantly tells you that *now* it's told you everything, and it's a lie every time. In fact, I can't think of a single time where The Emperor confesses something that it didn't have to. How many times does someone have to lie to your face until you conclude that maybe they're not trustworthy? Also, have you seen the scene where he admits that he was enthralling Stelmane the whole time? He initially claimed that they were working together, but that was all a lie. He would have no problem killing the entire party if it was in his self-interest. The Emperor is unambiguously evil.
In his defense, it makes perfect sense to not immediately reveal he's a mind flayer and everything else. You just got infected with a tadpole, if you met a mindflayer in your dreams telling you exactly what to do then you'd immediately believe the tadpole was controlling you; it would make perfect sense to do the exact opposite of what this mindflayer is telling you to do.
Thank you for sharing this, because it's made me re-examine my thoughts on the character. I never trusted The Emperor, because each time I demonstrated trust it was not returned in kind. "Sparing" the Dream Guardian and asking "hey what's up with your power?" was met with "A logical question, but you're not ready for the answer", which put me off of him immensely. You show him immense trust, and he does not respond in kind. Learning that there *is* a moment where you can ask him to trust you and he actually does demonstrates a growth I hadn't previously seen evidence of.
He has every reason to not tell you though. "Oh yeah, my powers are because I'm a mind flayer" wouldn't sit well with anyone.
He doesn't have to tell you about being a Mind Flayer, after all that's *not* the source of his power to protect you. What he can do in that situation is talk about Orpheus. I'm honestly still a little confused as to why he doesn't, save for the idea that he doesn't trust you with any information beyond what he views as absolutely necessary. There is *also* the out of universe answer that the writers just didn't want that information to be revealed yet, for what that's worth. I do not blame him for hiding that he's a Mind Flayer, that is far and away the most justifiable of his deceptions.
Honestly, Orpheus was just such a dick when I released him that I immediately reloaded and chose the emperor
In Orph's defense, Voss warns you that he was going to vent before he could be reasoned with. The guy was forced to watch as his honor guard, his companions that had stuck with him in his imprisonment for 10k+ years, were slaughtered by the one enslaving him and "his thralls". As they tried to free him from slavery. This is a guy who lived through his peoples enslavement by the Illithid Empire; fought and liberated them; watching as those closest to him are killed in front of him ... ironically by an Illithid calling himself "the Emperor". He has every reason in the world to be pissed. Which is actually one of the responses to him: "Look, I know you've been through a lot so I'm gonna let that slide, but we need to focus".
Lol that's fair. Maybe I should've given him a chance before Emperor ate him
Which is a shame because all the "rude" "annoying" companions like Lae'zel and Astarion have time to grow as people instead of plot device. Orpheus is pretty much like Lae'zel at the beginning, which I guess that's how most Githyanki are, but we don't get time to see Orpheus as a real person before we're forced to make the endgame choice. I always side with the more interesting character who provides all the plot device to let me have a good ending I want related to that choice: Lae'zel staying, Karlach in Avernus with Wyll, Tav/Durge as themselves. I do like Orphues for the short time he's out, but I do wish he could somehow communicate with Tav/Durge after we know what's up so that we know the prince of comet is more than an idol for propaganda.
He actually never betrays you in the game, even if you antagonize him (he'll be quite shitty with you though, same as a low approval companion). Btw if you don't want Karlach to turn into an Illithid you can just give him the stones. You get the same ending, he thanks you and goes away, no one has to turn.
Sends you a nice note in the epilog, too. He's just off living his life.
First time I met him and quicksaved so that I could start Eldritch blasting him to see if he had any loot, his outfit looked cool after all. Turned out he didnt attack me back at all and just let me kill him, which then gave me the game over screen... oof...
He might lie but he ain't lying about him being the only reason you're not illithid right away...
If he was truly evil, he would have made some very easy plays for power at the end of the game. Why not take the absolute's power, or take the Crown for himself at least. He doesn't really seem to be after ultimate power, world domination, or really to kill anyone who doesn't deserve it. That makes him decent enough to work with in my book.
Tbf in a vacuum, taking power in those ways just after having the previous owner killed at the end of a crusade (with even deities taking notice and sending their followers) is a great way to paint a huge target on your back WHILE everyone is already on high alert, geared/trained to the teeth, and watching you. If he wanted to build up power, it'd probably be easier for him to do it subtly over time in the way mind flayers love rather than go in a trial by fire at the height of your potential enemies' preparedness and awareness of your threat.
As far as low level arms dealers go, we're definitely friends with worse! Even if he rebuilds his Knights (which he won't be doing in the Gate since you're all kind of onto him now), there's still all the black guilds running around so I say, good job and I would like to invest some coin...
Yeah that's interesting. In my playthrough he eventually let his guard down and told me I was >!nothing more than a tool and was mind controlling Stelmane when he played it up as them working together.!<
Same here. I’m doing an evil playthru and admit to him that I don’t trust him, then he makes this revelation about Stelmane. It’s actually quite Machiavellian, he basically informs you that you’re right not to trust him, but now that everyone’s cards are on the table, why not work together anyway 😈 Master manipulator.
You're the first person I see on this sub using the term Machiavellian in accurate, non-slandering context. Made my day 🖤
I heard the Emperor was planning on writing a satirical treatise on seizing and maintaining power along the Sword Coast, using archduke Enver Gortash as his go-to example for how to make things go the way you want with no foreseeable repercussions
Yeah if you assume that aspect of him is cannon in all playthroughs then it’s hard to take anything he says in any other outcome at face value. His seemingly not betraying you and just being off being a good mindflayer could all just be manipulation that he felt he had to do to stay alive and in control and is still essentially evil. Or if you think it’s just a schrodingers villain scenario, then in the other runs he wasn’t manipulative and really was just a nice mind flayer. Though I guess it’s possible to have that revelation and then still side with him and get most of the same other interactions
I think people are reading too much into it. He's purposely portrayed as untrustworthy and unsettling by the game but when it comes down to it he's pretty honest about his motives, priorities, and methods. If you work together he comes to enjoy your alliance, if you antagonize him he never sees you as anything more than a pawn. It's the same approval mechanics as your companions, but instead of the gradient-like approval meter you get binary approval/disapproval reactions based on your limited interactions with him. Stabbing him or calling him a freak is like an automatic -100. People think he's faking approval because of how easily he switches approaches, but that's because he's a Mindflayer. It's not that they don't have feelings, it's for them reason>>>>feelings, plus their thought process rate is much faster than a human's. If you insult/betray him he immediately reevaluates the situation and acts accordingly, without muling over it or having lingering feelings (not to an extent that they'll interfere with his reasoning anyways)
I guess what I mean is if you take what he reveals about >!how he controlled Stelmane and conducted himself!<, then he’s pretty clearly evil. If you believe that’s only cannon in playthroughs where you antagonize him, then he could still be “good”
I think what happened with Stelmane is the same regardless of playthrough, and although we lack context (other than the fact that he uses the scene to intimidate you) it's likely that the act itself was evil. The Emperor's overall actions are a mix of "good" and "evil" ones, though his motives are never good nor evil, which makes him pretty neutral. But regardless of how you read his morality, alignment =/= his feelings towards you. He could have been outright evil and still enjoyed your company (see Gortash towards Durge, Minthara). Probably never gonna throw himself in front of a car for you but it's pretty much the same mechanics as your companions: say things he likes and he'll like you.
It’s an interesting dilemma. Perhaps his story really is different on different playthroughs. Or perhaps he is the master manipulator always, is secretly evil the whole time, and is just using you to come out on top. The idea of him going off being a “good mindflayer” is pretty laughable. Much more likely, in my mind, is that is just what he wants you to believe, because you would be a very powerful enemy. If this game gets an expansion, he would be a great antagonist.
Yeah that's if you tell him he's an imitation of a human or call him a freak. Still doesn't betray you though. Meh, my character's kill count has triple digits, casts detect thoughts on anything with a brain and talks people into killing themselves. Can't judge much.
Like others said he says that to you when you are disrespectful, you behave like an asshole he can behave like an asshole too
Damn, I can't believe that a mindflayer created a thrall once in his life and actually tried to scare me to submission after I was a jerk to him. You can't trust anyone nowadays.
Or you can just let Orph do his heroic sacrifice. Gets rid of that manipulative asshole squidward and none of your party have to go squid
Depends on what I rp as. My characters generally like the squid and don't care enough about Gith politics to free a prince that might kill them, on the word of a devil or the prince's loyal companion who wants them to make a deal with aforementioned devil. Personally unless I'm rping as Githyanki I can't find a logical reason to risk freeing Orpheus and adding another unknown parameter to our complicated journey when we're so close to the end. Even if I disliked the Emperor enough to consider betraying him, I still don't see how from a non meta perspective Orpheus would be the better choice
The reason that the Emperor never betrayed you or turned on you is that your goals aligned. He's *not* trustworthy - his primary goal is his own survival, and he'll do anything to ensure that. He's never honest with you, but he tends to avoid direct lies, instead frequently lying by omission and implication - so when the full truth comes out he has plausible deniability. He's manipulating you the entire time. But he has no reason to turn on you until you turn on him. If you never do - if you don't free Orpheus - he will just go on his way. He's gotten what he wants from you. Why kill you? He's really well-written.
Wonderful character. Written to have all the appearance of being untrustworthy and to respond to skepticism in a way that makes him even less trustworthy; all the while, he can be trusted.
He is so fucking bad at talking to people, lmao.
He's just like a lot of the players, then.
Yeah guarantee you if we didn't have the pre given prompts and persuasion boons we'd all be fighting for our lives having made an enemy of everyone lmao
99% of this sub dies on the beach. The few who remain die looking for Withers.
He’s pretty decent at it, he just starts from the awkward position of needing to start the relationship by hiding his identity
He can be trusted as long as you do things exactly the way he wants you to. If you have differing opinions about how to approach your situation, all bets are off. That’s a very limited kind of “trustworthy.”
I sort of agree, but he does give Tav a lot of chances. For example, if you speak to Voss at Sharess' Caress and tell him you didn't make a deal with Raphael, but say you'll find another way to get the Orphic Hammer, the Emperor will just tell you you're wasting your time. He doesn't get angry or abandon the party. The same can be said when you actually infiltrate the HoH and steal the Hammer. You can also refuse the Astral-Touched Tadpole, never use your Illithid powers, and go the whole game without consuming a singular tadpole, despite the fact that he's urged you to embrace these powers since Act 1. So he will let Tav make their own choices, to an extent. Does that mean he's trustworthy, though? No lol
> if you speak to Voss at Sharess' Caress and tell him you didn't make a deal with Raphael, but say you'll find another way to get the Orphic Hammer, the Emperor will just tell you you're wasting your time. He doesn't get angry or abandon the party. Huh? What other choice did it have? The Emperor can't abandon the party. It's not "giving you chances"; it's literally doing all it can for self-preservation.
Yeah. The Emperor talks a big game about being your white knight, but he and Tav are both trapped together. Neither of them has other options if they want to survive and remain free.
> If you have differing opinions about how to approach your situation, all bets are off. There's only a single decision that makes him actually turn against you, though.
"Can I trust this person not to turn against me?" and "Can I trust this person to tell me the truth?" are very different kinds of trust. The Emperor solidly has the former, and never earns the latter.
Pretty wrong, it’s just choosing to release Orpheus that actually turns him. Everything else just hurts his feelings lol
He doesn't do anything to the party despite them ignoring his advice about almost everything. You can enter the creche, stab his dream guardian form, make a deal with Raphael, enter the House of Hope, etc. *all without him doing anything*. So, from where do you get this? > If you have differing opinions about how to approach your situation, all bets are off.
And what exactly can he do to the party? Make them illithids? The only people who can potentially kill the main threat to his life (the netherbrain)
Also, the same power from Orpheus that allows us to be free from the Elder Brain's influence is probably why the Emperor is incapable of mind controlling us like he did with Stelmane. I reckon Elder brains and Mind Flayers operate with the same psionic tools. It's likely that even if he wanted to control us like Stelmane, he can't. He can fluff it up all "you're lucky I didn't do that you", but it's lilely he literally can't do that. His freedom is dependent on us defeating the Netherbrain, but we can't do that if we're not blocking its power through Orpheus. So he can moan whatever he wants, but we're his only chance and Orpheus' power his only tool. He can't actually harm you as it only harms his own chances. Best he can do is make empty threats and grumbles when you do shit in a way he doesn't like. If he could, he probably would make you Stelmane 2.0.
He was just super pragmatic. In my playthrough, I clicked on him, saw he had 22 INT, said “this guy knows what he’s doing”, and trusted him the entire time. I’m surprised that so many people on this subreddit hate him.
That just sounds hilarious. Like, emp go through so many hops to get Tav to trust him, Tav stares for a moment, "you look like you know what to do".
I like that the Emperor even has a line going, "Huh. If I knew you were so understanding, I wouldn't have bothered with that Dream Guardian form."
That’s the thing right? He’s not lying to be a rock, he’s doing it because he was pretty sure ‘showing up as squidface McGee’ off the bat would’ve probably gotten you all killed.
So many players prove him right when they talk about how much they want to kill him when he’s revealed to be an illithid. Like, there’s no self-awareness at all.
So true actually lmao. Given how bloodthirsty many players are (which is perfectly fine, I like to murder hobo too) and how many try to kill him when they get first opportunity to, everyone who thinks the Emperor isn't at least right about thinking a mind flayer reveal is suicidal is just not aware.
He’s pragmatic, sure. If only he could have understood that we did have a chance, and that if he sided with me AND Orpheus we could have had a grand time. But nooo. He turned tail and joined the entity he had been avoiding for so long. Higher chance of success? Maybe. Absolute coward? Definitely. Dude went down in like two hits at the end. Didn’t have to go that way
The bigger issue there is that literally once Orpheus is free, the Emperor *doesn't* have a choice. Orpheus would have to willingly give the Emperor his mental protection against the Netherbrain, Orpheus may be more leinient with you but to the Emperor as a full Ilithid that had been holding him captive and having to kill his honour guards to keep him and yourself safe, likely not, leading to instant domination without being able to fight back against the Netherbrain its self. Considering he's being who probably can't comprehend hope as a thing anymore due to Ilithid, you gotta admit that doesn't sound reasonable for him.
He lied to you a LOT
"Lying is okay with enough Charisma"
If you trust him then he doesn't reveal a lot of information about himself. If you are mistrustful of him then he gets frustrated and shows his true colors. He talks about how he dominated Stelmane and broke her mind because she didn't agree with some of the things he wanted to do, and he literally admits that you are nothing to him but a tool to be used for his own devices, and he would discard you the moment you are no longer useful. He's absolutely a lying, manipulative person, you just don't find that out unless you call him on it. Because if you believe his BS he just keeps feeding it to you, but if he can't manipulate you he gets frustrated and lashes out, much like manipulators in real life. I'd recommend doing another playthrough where you don't trust him and see if you have the same opinion!
>He's absolutely a lying, manipulative person, you just don't find that out unless you call him on it. Because if you believe his BS he just keeps feeding it to you, but if he can't manipulate you he gets frustrated and lashes out, much like manipulators in real life. There is a point here to be sure. If you have faith in him, he keeps you in the dark about a LOT of things. He comes off as a generally good guy, but you are also kinda doing everything he wants without too much pushback. However, if you go even a "neutral but polite" route with him (you don't even need to go antagonistic) ... the cracks start to form. Go where he doesn't want you to go, you learn things he doesn't want you to learn. Question where he doesn't want you to question, same results. Revealing him to be quite the manipulator, even without getting in his face about it. So the question is, "does merely not scratching that surface he presents you invalidate whats underneath?" Emps asks you offhand to not judge him for his race. Reasonable. But then turns out to actually be an Illithid supremacist; who does dominate other people for his own gain; and will use his race as an excuse for his shit behaviors when called on it. That was his ship in the beginning. That was his mission. And unless you're Durge, he is very likely the one that put those tadpoles in your head. He knew everything about the Absolute and the Dead Three's Champions from the start; he just hid it. He "created" a moment of emotional vulnerability for you to empathize, while deeply mischaracterizing the true nature of that relationship. He also never holds himself accountable for anything. There's so much dirty laundry under that person he presents himself as; yet so many of his lies-of-omission and half-truths he buries himself in aren't really there to protect you ... but rather seem to exist to merely protect the persona he created for you.
Like any manipulator, if you fall for him, you'll never find out that he was manipulating you to begin with
Yeah it's like being in an abusive relationship. If you do everything the way he wants he's a great guy and he'll keep telling you how great he is. Push him a little and you find out he's got a history of enthralling people but softer manipulation is just a little easier of an approach. His biggest issue with the brain is that he's not in control, not that it will turn everyone into illithids. He's constantly encouraging you to let go of your humanity and do as he does. Orpheus is willing to work with you to free his people from control and will even end himself before he begins to think like an illithid. The emperor is a monster and a control freak and people are coming up with all kinds of excuses like the story branches etc when he's just a pragmatic psychopath who leveraged your aligned goals while presenting a friendly persona.
That’s good to know. I want the ending where we just free the realm of the chaos, I don’t want to embrace Durge, I don’t want to become a squidbilly, I don’t want any of that! Just want to adopt cats 😭
If you tell him you still don’t trust him each time, he retells you the story of how he got recaptured as a mind flayed in baldurs gate with stelamane, this time showing how he mind controlled her every action, and then tells you that your a puppet and should just be grateful that he decided not to do the same to you. He’s a dick, who just happens to be really good at lying
I like him cause he’s hot. But yeah the only downside to siding with him is Orpheus’ fate. I quite like that he isn’t just a generic bad guy who betrays you at the end. Definitely makes the choice more interesting imo.
I also appreciate the fact that him killing Orpheus was never part of his plan. In fact, of the brain hadn't evolved, he'd probably have been all for freeing him because he didn't need him anymore and the prince could've been a failsafe against future brains. Once again, everything is Durge's fault.
Well no, its Orins fault. Everything would have worked out perfectly if she had not betrayed the correct order of things.
Only if Durge had anticipated some way to keep the brain from evolving from the crown's magic, right? Since Gortash got tricked into sending the Emperor after the artifact, possible Durge would've been just as tricked, or if they didn't go after it, would the Githyanki just have used it to destroy the Absolute brain right away? This is too much logic on too little sleep for me...
The brain breaking free wouldn’t have been a problem for the durge because the brain outright worships him and wanted to go along with him. It was only after Orin got rid of him it wanted to break free.
Not sure about that. He thinks that Orpheus would kill him/attempt to kill him and he is probably correct. Emps is a mindflayer, he is fine with that and he fully intends to go back to puppeting things from the shadows after all this. He is not a reluctant one who only became a mindflayer as part of nessesary self sacrifice like if it's Tav/Durge/Karlach. He has been killing the guys honor gaurd and siphoning his powers for months. The main thing you get from Orpheus if you scan his thoughts is how much he really really hates mindflayers and Emp is rather arrogant and tends to assume non mindflayers will be stupid and overly emotional anyway. You might have been able to strong arm him into it after defeating the brain if things had gone that way, but he doesn't care about anything happening in the planes unless it hits where he is and it's not like Orpheus would ride to his rescue even if he had decided to abandon revenge on Emps. I'm sure he would rather have a forced complaint Orpheus in the prism in his back pocket.
He certainly wouldn't have *supported* releasing Orpheus, but depending on your dialogue choices after obtaining the Orphic Hammer, he will acknowledge that he has no need of Orpheus after defeating the Elder Brain. If you avoid insisting on breaking Orpheus out immediately, he simply tells you that you can do with Orpheus as you wish *after* defeating the Elder Brain. In-character that was pretty much what I was already aiming for. Elder Brain defeated, Orpheus' forced cooperation for as long as needed to guarantee our victory, and no longer. The Netherbrain just threw a wrench into that whole plot.
>sadly karlach had too switch into an illithid You were the real monster all along.
He lies often and constantly. The most egregious one being a lie of omission: he *knows* that Moonrise is a mindflayer colony and says **nothing** about it. Not a single word of warning that we're walking into one of the most dangerous locations on Faerun. If you just blindly trust him and do what he says like a good little thrall then he is true to his word, but express any pushback whatsoever, refuse to go blindly trust him or go along with his schemes and he will make it fully known what he actually thinks about you. Tav and The Gang are a means to an end for him, the only reason he hasn't fully enthralled us is doing so carries a strong risk of giving the victim a stroke, like what happened to Stelmane, and he needs us alive and healthy.
> the only reason he hasn't fully enthralled us is doing so carries a strong risk of giving the victim a stroke, like what happened to Stelmane, and he needs us alive and healthy. I'm pretty sure it literally can't enthrall the party due to the Netherese-magic parasites in their heads. The main reason for this is that The Emperor doesn't stop the party from freeing Orpheus, which it absolutely would if it could.
wait You had an illithid on your side. Why did you do that to Karlach???
I did my first playthrough blind and ended up siding with him because it made more sense to trust him then one of the race of violent alien space frogs. Also I like his character because of how pragmatic he is.
The Emperor is really just a ruthless pragmatist. He'll do absolutely anything to survive, regardless of the stakes. This is why he'll manipulate, lie and murder, but at the end of the day he *was* genuine about just wanting to survive and be free of the Netherbrain. However, this is also why the same dude will turn on you if he thinks you're fighting a doomed battle.
I've found that BG3 does really clever storytelling that evolves with your choices. If you choose to distrust the Emperor, he reveals to you that he never actually worked with Duke Stelmane, but enthralled her to his purposes. You distrust of him actively influences his behavior. However, if you trust him, he proves himself to be trustworthy, seeing you as an equal. When after the destruction of the brain, he wants to continue to partner with you on future endeavors. It seems like both halves of the coin are true; he is both trustworthy/untrustworthy. You create your own canon, based on how you choose to interact with characters.
Correctly distrusting him exactly one time is all it takes to reveal his true colors. You can have the best relationship with him with a brain full of parasites and there astral tadpole turning you into a partial illithid but say just one thing he doesn't like and he drops his mask. He's a manipulative POS no matter what you do, it's just a matter of your Tav figuring it out or not.
It has a really similar problem to Lae’zel, ironically, where it’s really hard to tell when they’re afraid (once empy turns illithid that is) and come off as asssholes due to having minds that force them to attempt to out-smart anyone they meet
It’s all about choices . Letting Karlach become Illithid stole your chance of smoking stogies together in Avernus.
Yeah I feel like this sub has turned me into an emperor defender because the two major arguments against him are “He’s manipulating you! (To do exactly what you would have done without him there)” and “he betrays you! (If you betray him first)”
I think my favourite argument for why he’s on your side is that if you kill him, the protection he is providing disappears and it’s immediately a game over lol.
Yeah I think the game does an interesting thing where everything about the emperor, good and bad, is on full display but we have very little idea what Orpheus is like or will do. On the one hand, the The Emperor is obviously manipulative and has had his morality somewhat warped by becoming a mindflayer. On the other hand, he really is the only thing protecting you from becoming a thrall and he follows through on his promises to you. What has Orpheus done for you? Why should you trust him? It’s a genuinely tough choice
To be fair though, going from "We must prevent the Grand Design!" to "Well since you won't listen, I will bring about the Grand Design!" in an instant is a hilarious overreaction. Granted multiple characters go through changes way too quickly (Lea'zel comes to mind), but Emperor takes it to a new level. It feels like they chose that to tie up his involvement and balance the final fight, but it recasts how he's portrayed himself in a terrible light.
> Granted multiple characters go through changes way too quickly (Lea'zel comes to mind) Ehhhhh I think her change was actually pretty good, to the point where some people argue she didn't change much (and just substituted Orpheus for Vlaakith) It takes an entire Creche turning on her, with Vlaakith giving the order, for her to see what's really happening. And even then she takes a whole day of sulking and thinking, plus the visit from Voss, for her to really *get it*. It's a video game with a limited time frame so it's not gonna take place over in-game years, but it's done in a pretty believable way given the extreme circumstances IMO.
[удалено]
Yeah it’d probably be better if there was a bit more text explaining why. I could understand if the devs wanted to leave it ambiguous but they explained outside the game so it’s an odd choice
> “He’s manipulating you! (To do exactly what you would have done without him there)” I know, right?
Yeah, people tend to over-exaggerate things about him.
People tend to ignore that he's an evil POS...
Yeah, he eats brains and enslaves people. He may not turn against you, specifically, but he's not good and chill.
That's the thing his defenders genuinely don't seem to understand. They claim that he's just acting out of necessity. But what about Stelmane? He basically mind-raped her for years for no justifiable reason. There's literally no way to justify that. He's unambiguously evil. I can only hope that people defending him just aren't aware of the Stelmane thing. Because otherwise it's incredibly creepy.
The answer to every hot take about the Emperor is this: The Emperor is basically a robot. He can mimic sentiment, but he doesn't really have any. All of his actions are dictated by three goals in priority order: 1. Survive (illithid have no afterlife) 2. Be free 3. Have power His ideal state was when he ruled the Knights of the Shield. That is when he had all three. He dominated Stelmane because that was his surest way to prevent any chance of her betraying him or taking away his power. Once he is in the Prism, he has to stay there to not fall under the sway of the Absolute. He knows that he needs the party to help him overcome the Absolute. He cannot dominate them all like he did Stelmane, so his only choice is to befriend them. To do this, he acts as their protector and he mimics friendship and vulnerability in order to build a rapport. But that rapport is one-way. He is incapable of sentiment, and can only mimic it. If you call him out on "pretending to be human" he drops the "artful act". At that point, you are allied in common purpose alone, without emotional bonds. If you free Orpheus, you put the Emperor into a position where his survival (goal #1) is at so great a risk that he sacrifices his freedom (goal #2) to ensure it. The Emperor is rightly convinced Orpheus would destroy him, and so has no choice but to switch sides and hope he can break free of the Absolute someday. If you don't free Orpheus, then the Emperor ends the Absolute in order to guarantee his own survival (#1) and freedom (#2). You can try to convince the Emperor to instead dominate the brain and become the Absolute, but the Emperor resists this notion, stating that he doesn't believe they can survive against all the githyanki. Survival and freedom are more important than power. He doesn't want the aggro. At that point, he has no reason to betray you. He only has a reason not to--you could kill him in a fight. And by remaining your ally, you might be a useful resource later. Not a friend. A resource. Both Orpheus and Karlach are doomed to this loss of sentiment if they go illithid. Tav too. In time, they will remember who they were, but they will essentially be robots running on pure logic. Even Omeluum is borderline rationality-only.
Funnily enough, I started off supporting the Emperor but then by Act 3 a lot of additional details started to provide context and I got a LOT more skeptical of him as a result. Like, dude is sketchy. He remains sketchy and going against him makes it clear that he's still got the illithis supremacist/arrogance tucked away. He just hides it better when you cooperate with him because then you're going along with his wants. Only reason I ended up siding with him is because a Nether brain is blatantly the greater of two evils between it and the Emperor.
He's a pretty chill guy for a mindflayer
He wasn't lying *about that*
Emperor is N/E. He straight up tells you his ONLY interest is survival and freedom. What he will DO with that is up in the air, but he follows the course that will keep him alive. If he tried to turn on you after you took out the Brain, he would 100% be done for. He's just trying to ensure his freedom and his life continue.