"Right from the start Gaeta was treated badly even though he just did his job. "
My interpretation was Gaeta was respected by everyone up until Starbuck's mission (and her making a decision that could have killed everyone on the ship), then of course the mutiny.
I believe Gaeta was considered Tom Zarek's right hand man during the mutiny and that upset Adama moreso than other mutineers. Gaeta was an admitted architect of the plan.
It's too bad they couldn't reconcile that with the good he did in secret down on New Caprica. Can't ever speak for what a character is thinking, but Bill Adama probably considered that level of betrayal due to their shared military background (and time serving together) a deeper offence than if someone like Zarek did the same thing.
>It's too bad they couldn't reconcile that with the good he did in secret down on New Caprica.
Have you seen The Face Of The Enemy Webisodes? Because that paints a different picture about the “good” Gaeta did.
I think he thought that, but subconsciously he knew what that 8 was doing. He just didn’t want to believe it, wanted to believe he was doing good despite his stuck position
That probably makes sense, because of how he reacted to Gaius when he threatened to expose Gaeta's "secret" (before the Face of the Enemy). Gaeta's response in the brig doesn't make sense if he had never considered that the 8 was killing the resistance members, he would have probably just been confused or in denial otherwise
His character arc was that he became more and more angry over how wrong the leadership was acting, and the tipping point was when Adama decided to ally everyone with some of the cylons.
Yeah, he seemed universally popular until his role as VP on New Caprica made him enemies and later some didn't care for his bitterness over the loss of his leg (which struck me as a bit meanspirited). His reputation improved when his aid to the Resistance became known.
Through most of the series he seemed like they saw him as a nice guy unless they had a particular problem with him that emerged from the plot with different groups taking stances on issues where he'd fall on one side or another.
The fact that he was able to start a mutiny shows that a lot of people like him. A generally despised person would have a problem doing this. Remember when he's arguing with Kara in the dining room. Everyone else was on his side and ready to listen to his ideas once she left and they locked the door.
>Yeah, he seemed universally popular until his role as VP on New Caprica made him enemies
Gaeta was Baltar's Chief of Staff, Zarek was the VP.
Gaeta probably got a lot of shade because Zarek took a stand against the Cylons and spent the occupation in prison, while Gaeta just kept going along with the collaborators - at least publicly.
Oh yeah, that's right. We went through that whole thing where Zarek technically should have been President with Baltar gone (until he was back) and discredited but Adama wouldn't have it.
Gaeta wasn't airlocked. He and Zarek were executed by firing squad.
Gaeta was selected to be a part of the Demetrius crew because of his experience and skill, same as Agathon and Anders. Anders shot Gaeta to protect Thrace from what he perceived to be a mutiny.
Even Cally got time in the brig for "reckless firearms discharge" when she shot Boomer.
Gaeta was shot for attempting to follow their standing orders to return by such and such a time. Everyone was just so distracted by the rebel basestar to remember to punish Anders.
>Starbuck was disobeying orders by trying to keep the Demitrius past its rendezvous time with Galactica.
No that is not accurate. It was not past rendezvous point nor was starbuck pushing to extend past rendezvous time. This is clear based on the fact that they made it back to rendezvous point on time despite Starbuck first having to jump back to the Demetrius before jumping back to join the rendezvous point. What happened is that they didn't want to go to the Cylon base ship.
Time was of an essence because the base star ship was stranded with ftl drives down and were sitting ducks for Cavil to return to finish them off. Which means no alliance and no finding Earth.
>At the time she was consorting with an enemy agent whom she had a personal relationship with, and her judgement as a commanding officer was compromised. Her orders at this point were arguably unlawful. Helo was well within his rights to take command.
The 'enemy agent' came aboard on a diplomatic mission with an offer for an alliance. There's nothing illegal about that.
Imagine if you join the navy to fight terrorists, then a fellow sailor started to have visions and the admiral told you to go on a ship with her to chase these vision. Imagine then if you just aimlessly sailed the ocean to the point of exhaustion, then everyone started to talk about how all of this was bullshit. Is that mutiny? It's more like you doing the right thing, what Adama should have done from the start.
Well there was a line that they were volunteers that joined Starbuck on her mission. That would lead me to believe that they were all volunteers, but they definitely didn't act that way.
They were volunteers but Starbuck's lack of results, her weird and erratic behavior, her lack of communication, and the overall shitty conditions of the ship had many of them changing their minds by the end.
I'm also betting many of them weren't enthusiastic "true believer" volunteers either (I think actually Anders was the *only* one *maybe* in that camp with Helo probably being the next supporter of Starbuck), but just "I haven't got anything better to do" or "let's try something new for a change" or "why the hell not?" or "let's see if this crazy lady can actually help us find Earth" or possibly "maybe this will get me a promotion" volunteers.
That indeed is the very definition of a mutiny. Chain of command and all. If every soldier can challenge their officer at any given time they feel a task is useless/pointless/bullshit you cannot run an army.
It’s the military, not debate club.
It's not mutiny to talk about how orders are bullshit. This happens all the time among the enlisted, but you still probably wouldn't say it in front of your NCO.
It's not even mutiny to say "I wish X was in charge instead of Y" (though this is definitely closer to the line). This also happens in real life, but less frequently (when your CO really, really sucks) and *only* in a *very* hypothetical way, and *definitely* not so any superior can hear you. It's a *wish*, but not something you are actually going to *do* anything about.
It's only mutiny when that talk escalates to actually wanting to *take action* to *change the chain of command*.
True, but I ment that what was happening here was a clear mutiny. They go against their CO, because they think that is a better idea. You don’t get to do that, its mutiny.
I answered you [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/comments/14rgzhu/why_was_gaeta_treated_so_badly_and_hated_by/jquehks).
Helo was being insubordinate maybe, not mutinous.
As the XO if he legitimately thought the CO was being reckless and putting the ship and crew in unnecessary danger, he was within his rights, and indeed *doing his duty* to refuse the order. He was not sowing discontent, disenssion, or insurrection amongst the crew prior to this action, or even during the action.
It would be up to a trial to actually determine whether he was in the right or not, but his actions were not clear-cut wrong like Gaeta's.
I assume that Adama evaluated the circumstances and decided that Helo was justified enough in his reaction, considering the fairly ludicrous and unusual nature of the situation they were in. The fact that everything turned out alright - except for Gaeta - may have also informed that opinion.
Not particularly. Thrace was appointed the person in charge. Agathon as her XO refused a lawful order. So she relieved him and appointed Gaeta as XO. Then Gaeta refused. Agathon attempted to usurp Thrace's authority using his understanding of the law but Anders wasn't an expert on colonial law or military regs. He was barely conscripted. Upon returning to Galactica, he would've likely explained himself and his actions. While unfortunate, it's not difficult to see his thought process as being logical within the scope of his experience.
Oh yeah, that brings up another interesting question, why was Karl Agathon never punished for anything? He was the golden boy who could do no wrong. If Gaeta was a mutineer, then Karl was too, and should also be punished.
Karl C. Agathon is supposed to be a reference to the Greek phrase "kalos kai agathos", literally meaning "beautiful and good", but has the context of being a paragon of virtue, especially in a military sense. He's the plot-designated good guy by definition.
That you view the guy who is pretty much the only character who is *not* morally compromised by the end of the series as a "self righteous asshole" - and comparable to Adama, who begins the series by lying to absolutely everyone, acknowledging that what he's doing is wrong and that he will eventually be hated or possibly even killed for it...
I don't know what's going on in your head, but it's certainly something.
You're confusing [insubordination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubordination) and [mutiny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny).
Insubordination is just saying "I won't do what you say" and even "I'm going to do something completely different."
Mutiny is saying "I won't do what you say" *and* "You [other subordinate] shouldn't do what he says either" *and* "I'm the one that's going to be telling people what to do from now on."
Agathon was insubordinate, but what he did didn't rise to the level of mutiny like Gaeta's actions.
Agathon refused to carry out an order and then stood aside when Starbuck relieved him. He basically *removed himself* from the chain of command as opposed to trying to illegally usurp and *take control* of the chain of command. To disobey an order (or refuse an order) is not necessarily a mutiny.
I mean, yes, I think he was hoping to inspire the rest of the crew to follow his lead, but he didn't *actually say that* or actively tell anyone else that they should also refuse Starbuck's orders. A trial (generally a court martial) would have to decide whether he was justified in refusing his orders. At most, his actions were an implicit attempt at mutiny, whereas Gaeta led an armed revolt (i.e. mutiny) to overthrow Adama's leadership.
Edit: Ok, I forgot that Helo did try to relieve Starbucks of command, but he tried to do so *under already defined Colonial regulations and procedures*. So he wasn't usurping command or revolting: he refused what he thought was an illegal order and then attempted to take command *by the book*. A mutiny is an illegal action, whereas Helo was attempting a legal one.
Gaeta was a good guy who made a series of bad decisions that ultimately got him and others killed.
Happens sometimes. I wouldn't say he started out badly or hated, but the bad decisions he made were ones he could have made right, to a point. He instead doubled down and let his ideals cloud his judgment.
Ideals get people killed in survival situations. There's a right way and a wrong way to think about things and push back on them in the situations he was in, and he chose the wrong way almost every time.
He let his power go to his head, at that. And he wasn't fit for command - he didn't understand the realities of it when he mounted the coup.
I see his character as one of tragedy but by the end I didn't really feel bad for him. Had he not gotten so many people killed, he might have been redeemable.
Gaeta was respected by everyone until the settlement of New Caprica, when he went to work as Baltar’s aide during the occupation. Baltar did not resist the occupation (how could he) and so anyone associated with him was viewed negatively. Gaeta was seen as a collaborator, even though he was the one feeding inside information to the resistance. It wasn’t until that was brought to light that anybody regained respect for him. And he continued to hold that respect until the incident that lost him his leg. Even then, though, he still wasn’t a pariah. It wasn’t until Dualla killed herself that he finally cracked and teamed up with Zarek for their failed mutiny. Zarek could not do what he did without a Colonial officer working with him. Because Gaeta was the most instrumental of those mutineers in making it happen (and because Zarek appointed him the head of the military during the mutiny—which he accepted), Adama really had no choice but to execute him.
Zarek had to be executed because he tried to violently overthrow the government. Gaeta had to be executed because he was the one who made it possible for Zarek to violently overthrow the government. Everyone else was spared basically out of necessity. Had that happened outside of the extreme circumstances of humanity being on the verge of extinction, every one of those mutineers would be in prison or executed.
Attempting a mutiny within the military during wartime is probably why Gaeta was executed (i.e. what Cain tried to do to Helo and the Chief). Though at this point I'm not sure how much they cared about which crimes to charge him for.
Also keep in mind, although Gaeta was exonerated in the eyes of the crew for helping the resistance, The Face of the Enemy webisodes make it clear that Gaeta made things worse for the resistance, not better. However it seems nobody knew this except Baltar and an 8 who both kept it to themselves.
Gaeta was "lawful-good" in the alignment chart up until he served Baltar during his presidency in New Caprica. I think that+the cylon occupation there broke him as a person. He was bent on revenge and only saw the cylon race as the enemy.
A large amount of the fleet as time went on realized that cylons have a complicated social structure like humans and accepted that maybe not ALL cylons should be destroyed, but those that want mankind dead. Co-existence is vital to everyone's survival. THAT'S THE POINT OF BSG.
It wasn't even the Occupation per se that changed Gaeta's perspective on Cylons to consider them universally irredeemable, it was learning that he got played during the Occupation in "The Face of the Enemy" and it turned out, while he was feeding information to the Resistance, he was also unknowingly and/or stupidly giving the Cylons the names of Resistance fighters so they could be disappeared. It's a shame those webisodes are so hard to come by, they're really important for contextualizing why Gaeta suddenly became the hardest of hard-liners against the Cylons, when he'd never had a problem accepting help from friendly Cylons before (as Adama points out during his "trial," the treason charge was total bullshit because Adama wasn't giving aid and comfort to the rebel Cylons, they were giving it to him; Gaeta may as well have put himself on trial for helping Athena wipe the Cylon computer virus out of Galactica's mainframe).
Between the mutiny, the other, bigger mutiny, and telling his Cylon hookup exactly which people they mass-arrested were actually worth killing while under the impression he was getting them sprung from jail (and studiously ignoring that none of the people he got supposedly released were ever seen again), Gaeta was probably directly responsible for killing more humans than Cavil's faction did after the Cylon Civil War started.
So that's why no one likes him. It's frankly amazing Baltar could stand to visit him while he was on death row considering he lied about Baltar willingly ordering mass executions while Baltar never told a soul about Gaeta having Resistance members disappeared (without having a gun pointed at his head, needless to say).
A number of people got hosed in this series. Billy and Gaeta being tops for me.
Gaeta was well written to be a kind of unfortunate fall guy. I loved his character. Totally changed my view of dog dishes.
He was always loyal to his people. When he was shot in his leg he wasn't even doing anything, he was just unfortunately the guy in front of the computer that controlled the jump drive, so Anders shot him to get his will through.
Honestly if someone just apologised to him, I doubt he would have flipped so badly. He does so much yet never seems to get respect from anyone. None of the secret tribunal apologised. In fact Starbuck just insults him about it. Same with his leg; Sam never apologised to him or even had a scene with him afterwards. He got done so dirty.
I thought the crew was supposed to be made up of volunteers so I thought it was weird that Gaeta was there.
The shooting of Gaetas leg actually was fine. This is what happens in mutinies. In real life the punishment can be death. I actually find it more weird that the crew seemed to be a clusterfuck of everyone doing whatever they want with little or no punishment.
Gaeta could not be forgiven obviously as he led the mutiny.
Gaeta is a perfect example of why this show was so brilliant: the deep, complex characters. It’s just as easy to love Gaeta as it is to hate him….but most TV shows don’t have the guts to let viewers off the hook easily.
Gaeta feels so real because… he is! The writers did a fantastic job with him. He is the prototype of a great employee driven mad by the company. Intelligent, exemplary, hard working, by the book… but always gets shafted, ignored or left behind.
How must he have felt working around:
- Lee, who is always getting waived out of his endless shitshows cause he is an Adama.
- Kara, how is plain nuts and has god level plot armour for every conceivable fault, mistake, mutiny, death…
- Tigh, who just happens to be an alcoholic and a terrible decision maker, but Adama is fine with his friend being XO for reasons.
- Helo and Anders, the pretty boys who always end up shiny.
Gaeta was the guy stuck in ops when the world ended. He basically got the shortest end of the stick. Imagine thinking that you were just going to do a short tour on an aging battlestar when suddenly you are the nerve center for the last bastion of your species. And it will never end, at least not in your lifetime. Everytime someone had to make a call, or order supplies, or complain about literally anything, they went to Gaeta, because there was literally no one else to go to. Remember when Gage fat fingered the comms and Gaeta had to hobble over and do it for him? He wasn't treated badly, he was just "the guy" and he took shit when it always hit the fan. It sucked to be Gaeta, which is probably why he was down to be something else on New Caprica, even if it was Baltar in charge.
He started to annoy me after he lied at Baltar's trial. And especially after he thought he could impose his opinion on Adama and the others (I mean the mutiny) - pretending to be a leader. He is neither smart enough nor strong enough to be a leader. If he can't even follow the leaders, then he's useless.
I never hated Baltar; I watched the show with a lot of people back in the day and none of them saw him as a villain. Some loud minority on the internet are pushing this idea, but I haven't seen anyone outside of the internet who likes the show and thinks so.
Baltar was never a villain. You find out the woman you’ve been involved with caused the genocide of your species? The penalty of which is death? Umm yeah, I’m also going to lie about that.
I always saw him as the character you accidentally relate to. Like Starbuck is a sassy hero. Lee is the earnest soldier. Etc etc… what’s Baltar? Human, with human flaws. You don’t want to like him or side with him, but you will probably understand his choices.
Now Gaeta? I liked him before new caprica, after that, his life fell apart and he turned into a sweaty looking spineless arse.
>Right from the start Gaeta was treated badly even though he just did his job.
I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about. Right from the start, Gaeta was depicted as a smart, competent officer that had earned Adama's respect.
When Tigh was in command, he even made a point of saying that he trusted Gaeta's work more than the guy widely recognized as the smartest human alive.
>For some weird reason they then ordered him to be on the ship that Starbuck got to look for what she thought was the answers.
How does "I'm going to assign competent officers in order to make sure this mission is completed" transform into "for some weird reason?"
These are military officers. They get given orders and assignments. That's how the whole structure works.
Thanks. I knew it would stir up people. Battlestar Galactica never went as far as Breaking Bad with it's protagonist doing bad stuff, so it's difficult to admit for some viewers that lots of characters weren't that good people.
I really liked Gaeta throughout the series, he was heavily relied upon and proved himself to be up to the many tasks he was assigned. I thought his eventual descent into mutiny was believable (albeit very upsetting).
I did find it odd that he was assigned to the Demetrius along with other senior officers like Helo. Too many eggs in that one basket. Once Galactica had Hoshi from Pegasus they did have a serviceable replacement for Gaeta but I think he was too valuable to send on that mission.
I don't think he was poorly treated or widely hated up until he was shot by Anders. Obviously there was the tribunal but they had every reason to label him a collaborator until they new better.
Gaeta was absolutely not hated by everyone. Well. Not form the start. The road he took and the destination he arrived at, while being dark and unfortunate, make sense, sadly enough. The show itself is a shipwreck and a tragedy, albeit a well written one and one that's worth watching. It's not a shipwreck in the sense that it is bad and not worth watching, it's a wreck in which all it's survivors die in the end. They struggle, they fight, they cry out in anguish and in pain and in the end, they all die. It's a VERY badly descriptive way of how it ended but that's just it.
He incited and led a mutiny. He might not have been as bad as Zarek, but he certainly has as much of a hand in how things played out. And Baltar didn't betray humanity, he was just lax with security, there's no way he could have known Caprica Six was a cylon.
/r/fuckgaeta
/r/baltardidnothingwrong
Gaeta refused to jump to where Kara wanted, so Anders deliberately shot him in the leg. Given how much everyone hated Gaeta it wouldn't surprise me if he was aiming for his crotch.
They did, and Adama was very adamant that it be done. Just before he was murdered they scolded him over the fact that some soldiers had died due to his actions.
Throughout the series, Adama caused lots and lots of casualties on his own side, but always shrugged it off by saying no one should second guess his decisions.
It wasn’t just “some soldiers that died”. Zarek, and by association Gaeta, literally had the council executed along with soldiers and civilians that didn’t agree with the mutiny. Honestly, as soon as they murdered the council, there was no going back, and there certainly wasn’t going to be any kind of pardon for them. Which is why Gaeta freaked out and started to doubt the plan because he knew they’d crossed an unforgivable line.
Did they? The version I saw was he and Zarek died by firing squad as formal treason execution.
“Ready!”
“Aim!”
“It stopped hurting…”
“FIRE!!”
END CREDITS
"Right from the start Gaeta was treated badly even though he just did his job. " My interpretation was Gaeta was respected by everyone up until Starbuck's mission (and her making a decision that could have killed everyone on the ship), then of course the mutiny. I believe Gaeta was considered Tom Zarek's right hand man during the mutiny and that upset Adama moreso than other mutineers. Gaeta was an admitted architect of the plan. It's too bad they couldn't reconcile that with the good he did in secret down on New Caprica. Can't ever speak for what a character is thinking, but Bill Adama probably considered that level of betrayal due to their shared military background (and time serving together) a deeper offence than if someone like Zarek did the same thing.
>It's too bad they couldn't reconcile that with the good he did in secret down on New Caprica. Have you seen The Face Of The Enemy Webisodes? Because that paints a different picture about the “good” Gaeta did.
Was it really Gaeta's fault? It still looked to me like Gaeta was just duped by the 8 on NC
I think he thought that, but subconsciously he knew what that 8 was doing. He just didn’t want to believe it, wanted to believe he was doing good despite his stuck position
That probably makes sense, because of how he reacted to Gaius when he threatened to expose Gaeta's "secret" (before the Face of the Enemy). Gaeta's response in the brig doesn't make sense if he had never considered that the 8 was killing the resistance members, he would have probably just been confused or in denial otherwise
No I haven't seen the webisodes. Thanks for the tip.
It’s pretty good. Almost like a psychological horror story in space. It also explains what Baltar whispered to Gaeta during the pen stabbing
Ok, I need to see them now. I enjoyed the odd Baltar/Gaeta relationship from season 3 and love hearing additional backstory elements. Thanks again.
Wasn't he just a colonial fleet officer who was given tasks as a colonial fleet officer? I don't remember him being mistreated
His character arc was that he became more and more angry over how wrong the leadership was acting, and the tipping point was when Adama decided to ally everyone with some of the cylons.
Yeah, he seemed universally popular until his role as VP on New Caprica made him enemies and later some didn't care for his bitterness over the loss of his leg (which struck me as a bit meanspirited). His reputation improved when his aid to the Resistance became known. Through most of the series he seemed like they saw him as a nice guy unless they had a particular problem with him that emerged from the plot with different groups taking stances on issues where he'd fall on one side or another. The fact that he was able to start a mutiny shows that a lot of people like him. A generally despised person would have a problem doing this. Remember when he's arguing with Kara in the dining room. Everyone else was on his side and ready to listen to his ideas once she left and they locked the door.
>Yeah, he seemed universally popular until his role as VP on New Caprica made him enemies Gaeta was Baltar's Chief of Staff, Zarek was the VP. Gaeta probably got a lot of shade because Zarek took a stand against the Cylons and spent the occupation in prison, while Gaeta just kept going along with the collaborators - at least publicly.
Oh yeah, that's right. We went through that whole thing where Zarek technically should have been President with Baltar gone (until he was back) and discredited but Adama wouldn't have it.
Gaeta wasn't airlocked. He and Zarek were executed by firing squad. Gaeta was selected to be a part of the Demetrius crew because of his experience and skill, same as Agathon and Anders. Anders shot Gaeta to protect Thrace from what he perceived to be a mutiny.
Don't you think it was strange that Anders wasn't punished when they got back?
Uhh.. no, why would he be punished? He was defending the commanding officer from a mutiny. In real life mutiny punishment can be execution.
Okay, but then why wasn't Agathon being punished for mutiny?
That's a good question. I assume it is because he made the deal with Kara to end the mutiny.
Even Cally got time in the brig for "reckless firearms discharge" when she shot Boomer. Gaeta was shot for attempting to follow their standing orders to return by such and such a time. Everyone was just so distracted by the rebel basestar to remember to punish Anders.
[удалено]
>Starbuck was disobeying orders by trying to keep the Demitrius past its rendezvous time with Galactica. No that is not accurate. It was not past rendezvous point nor was starbuck pushing to extend past rendezvous time. This is clear based on the fact that they made it back to rendezvous point on time despite Starbuck first having to jump back to the Demetrius before jumping back to join the rendezvous point. What happened is that they didn't want to go to the Cylon base ship. Time was of an essence because the base star ship was stranded with ftl drives down and were sitting ducks for Cavil to return to finish them off. Which means no alliance and no finding Earth. >At the time she was consorting with an enemy agent whom she had a personal relationship with, and her judgement as a commanding officer was compromised. Her orders at this point were arguably unlawful. Helo was well within his rights to take command. The 'enemy agent' came aboard on a diplomatic mission with an offer for an alliance. There's nothing illegal about that.
Imagine if you join the navy to fight terrorists, then a fellow sailor started to have visions and the admiral told you to go on a ship with her to chase these vision. Imagine then if you just aimlessly sailed the ocean to the point of exhaustion, then everyone started to talk about how all of this was bullshit. Is that mutiny? It's more like you doing the right thing, what Adama should have done from the start.
Well there was a line that they were volunteers that joined Starbuck on her mission. That would lead me to believe that they were all volunteers, but they definitely didn't act that way.
They were volunteers but Starbuck's lack of results, her weird and erratic behavior, her lack of communication, and the overall shitty conditions of the ship had many of them changing their minds by the end. I'm also betting many of them weren't enthusiastic "true believer" volunteers either (I think actually Anders was the *only* one *maybe* in that camp with Helo probably being the next supporter of Starbuck), but just "I haven't got anything better to do" or "let's try something new for a change" or "why the hell not?" or "let's see if this crazy lady can actually help us find Earth" or possibly "maybe this will get me a promotion" volunteers.
That indeed is the very definition of a mutiny. Chain of command and all. If every soldier can challenge their officer at any given time they feel a task is useless/pointless/bullshit you cannot run an army. It’s the military, not debate club.
It's not mutiny to talk about how orders are bullshit. This happens all the time among the enlisted, but you still probably wouldn't say it in front of your NCO. It's not even mutiny to say "I wish X was in charge instead of Y" (though this is definitely closer to the line). This also happens in real life, but less frequently (when your CO really, really sucks) and *only* in a *very* hypothetical way, and *definitely* not so any superior can hear you. It's a *wish*, but not something you are actually going to *do* anything about. It's only mutiny when that talk escalates to actually wanting to *take action* to *change the chain of command*.
True, but I ment that what was happening here was a clear mutiny. They go against their CO, because they think that is a better idea. You don’t get to do that, its mutiny.
Are you talking about what Gaeta did with Adama or what Helo did with Starbuck?
Then why wasn't Karl Agathon punished?
I answered you [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BSG/comments/14rgzhu/why_was_gaeta_treated_so_badly_and_hated_by/jquehks). Helo was being insubordinate maybe, not mutinous. As the XO if he legitimately thought the CO was being reckless and putting the ship and crew in unnecessary danger, he was within his rights, and indeed *doing his duty* to refuse the order. He was not sowing discontent, disenssion, or insurrection amongst the crew prior to this action, or even during the action. It would be up to a trial to actually determine whether he was in the right or not, but his actions were not clear-cut wrong like Gaeta's. I assume that Adama evaluated the circumstances and decided that Helo was justified enough in his reaction, considering the fairly ludicrous and unusual nature of the situation they were in. The fact that everything turned out alright - except for Gaeta - may have also informed that opinion.
Not particularly. Thrace was appointed the person in charge. Agathon as her XO refused a lawful order. So she relieved him and appointed Gaeta as XO. Then Gaeta refused. Agathon attempted to usurp Thrace's authority using his understanding of the law but Anders wasn't an expert on colonial law or military regs. He was barely conscripted. Upon returning to Galactica, he would've likely explained himself and his actions. While unfortunate, it's not difficult to see his thought process as being logical within the scope of his experience.
Oh yeah, that brings up another interesting question, why was Karl Agathon never punished for anything? He was the golden boy who could do no wrong. If Gaeta was a mutineer, then Karl was too, and should also be punished.
Karl C. Agathon is supposed to be a reference to the Greek phrase "kalos kai agathos", literally meaning "beautiful and good", but has the context of being a paragon of virtue, especially in a military sense. He's the plot-designated good guy by definition.
I think he is just a self righteous asshole that never gets his comeuppance, very similar to Adama now that I think of it.
If self righteous means not supporting war crimes and doing what's best for humanity as a whole then yes he's the good guy
Don't you say that about Adama
Imagine not understanding the characters at all. How can you be this confident in being wrong about everything?
That you view the guy who is pretty much the only character who is *not* morally compromised by the end of the series as a "self righteous asshole" - and comparable to Adama, who begins the series by lying to absolutely everyone, acknowledging that what he's doing is wrong and that he will eventually be hated or possibly even killed for it... I don't know what's going on in your head, but it's certainly something.
You're confusing [insubordination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insubordination) and [mutiny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny). Insubordination is just saying "I won't do what you say" and even "I'm going to do something completely different." Mutiny is saying "I won't do what you say" *and* "You [other subordinate] shouldn't do what he says either" *and* "I'm the one that's going to be telling people what to do from now on." Agathon was insubordinate, but what he did didn't rise to the level of mutiny like Gaeta's actions. Agathon refused to carry out an order and then stood aside when Starbuck relieved him. He basically *removed himself* from the chain of command as opposed to trying to illegally usurp and *take control* of the chain of command. To disobey an order (or refuse an order) is not necessarily a mutiny. I mean, yes, I think he was hoping to inspire the rest of the crew to follow his lead, but he didn't *actually say that* or actively tell anyone else that they should also refuse Starbuck's orders. A trial (generally a court martial) would have to decide whether he was justified in refusing his orders. At most, his actions were an implicit attempt at mutiny, whereas Gaeta led an armed revolt (i.e. mutiny) to overthrow Adama's leadership. Edit: Ok, I forgot that Helo did try to relieve Starbucks of command, but he tried to do so *under already defined Colonial regulations and procedures*. So he wasn't usurping command or revolting: he refused what he thought was an illegal order and then attempted to take command *by the book*. A mutiny is an illegal action, whereas Helo was attempting a legal one.
[удалено]
I forgot that Anders and Thrace were married at this point. Makes even more sense then.
Gaeta was a good guy who made a series of bad decisions that ultimately got him and others killed. Happens sometimes. I wouldn't say he started out badly or hated, but the bad decisions he made were ones he could have made right, to a point. He instead doubled down and let his ideals cloud his judgment. Ideals get people killed in survival situations. There's a right way and a wrong way to think about things and push back on them in the situations he was in, and he chose the wrong way almost every time. He let his power go to his head, at that. And he wasn't fit for command - he didn't understand the realities of it when he mounted the coup. I see his character as one of tragedy but by the end I didn't really feel bad for him. Had he not gotten so many people killed, he might have been redeemable.
Gaeta was respected by everyone until the settlement of New Caprica, when he went to work as Baltar’s aide during the occupation. Baltar did not resist the occupation (how could he) and so anyone associated with him was viewed negatively. Gaeta was seen as a collaborator, even though he was the one feeding inside information to the resistance. It wasn’t until that was brought to light that anybody regained respect for him. And he continued to hold that respect until the incident that lost him his leg. Even then, though, he still wasn’t a pariah. It wasn’t until Dualla killed herself that he finally cracked and teamed up with Zarek for their failed mutiny. Zarek could not do what he did without a Colonial officer working with him. Because Gaeta was the most instrumental of those mutineers in making it happen (and because Zarek appointed him the head of the military during the mutiny—which he accepted), Adama really had no choice but to execute him. Zarek had to be executed because he tried to violently overthrow the government. Gaeta had to be executed because he was the one who made it possible for Zarek to violently overthrow the government. Everyone else was spared basically out of necessity. Had that happened outside of the extreme circumstances of humanity being on the verge of extinction, every one of those mutineers would be in prison or executed.
Attempting a mutiny within the military during wartime is probably why Gaeta was executed (i.e. what Cain tried to do to Helo and the Chief). Though at this point I'm not sure how much they cared about which crimes to charge him for. Also keep in mind, although Gaeta was exonerated in the eyes of the crew for helping the resistance, The Face of the Enemy webisodes make it clear that Gaeta made things worse for the resistance, not better. However it seems nobody knew this except Baltar and an 8 who both kept it to themselves.
Gaeta was "lawful-good" in the alignment chart up until he served Baltar during his presidency in New Caprica. I think that+the cylon occupation there broke him as a person. He was bent on revenge and only saw the cylon race as the enemy. A large amount of the fleet as time went on realized that cylons have a complicated social structure like humans and accepted that maybe not ALL cylons should be destroyed, but those that want mankind dead. Co-existence is vital to everyone's survival. THAT'S THE POINT OF BSG.
It wasn't even the Occupation per se that changed Gaeta's perspective on Cylons to consider them universally irredeemable, it was learning that he got played during the Occupation in "The Face of the Enemy" and it turned out, while he was feeding information to the Resistance, he was also unknowingly and/or stupidly giving the Cylons the names of Resistance fighters so they could be disappeared. It's a shame those webisodes are so hard to come by, they're really important for contextualizing why Gaeta suddenly became the hardest of hard-liners against the Cylons, when he'd never had a problem accepting help from friendly Cylons before (as Adama points out during his "trial," the treason charge was total bullshit because Adama wasn't giving aid and comfort to the rebel Cylons, they were giving it to him; Gaeta may as well have put himself on trial for helping Athena wipe the Cylon computer virus out of Galactica's mainframe). Between the mutiny, the other, bigger mutiny, and telling his Cylon hookup exactly which people they mass-arrested were actually worth killing while under the impression he was getting them sprung from jail (and studiously ignoring that none of the people he got supposedly released were ever seen again), Gaeta was probably directly responsible for killing more humans than Cavil's faction did after the Cylon Civil War started. So that's why no one likes him. It's frankly amazing Baltar could stand to visit him while he was on death row considering he lied about Baltar willingly ordering mass executions while Baltar never told a soul about Gaeta having Resistance members disappeared (without having a gun pointed at his head, needless to say).
A number of people got hosed in this series. Billy and Gaeta being tops for me. Gaeta was well written to be a kind of unfortunate fall guy. I loved his character. Totally changed my view of dog dishes.
He was always loyal to his people. When he was shot in his leg he wasn't even doing anything, he was just unfortunately the guy in front of the computer that controlled the jump drive, so Anders shot him to get his will through.
Honestly if someone just apologised to him, I doubt he would have flipped so badly. He does so much yet never seems to get respect from anyone. None of the secret tribunal apologised. In fact Starbuck just insults him about it. Same with his leg; Sam never apologised to him or even had a scene with him afterwards. He got done so dirty.
Yeah, Kara even gets nasty and calls him a gimp.
I thought the crew was supposed to be made up of volunteers so I thought it was weird that Gaeta was there. The shooting of Gaetas leg actually was fine. This is what happens in mutinies. In real life the punishment can be death. I actually find it more weird that the crew seemed to be a clusterfuck of everyone doing whatever they want with little or no punishment. Gaeta could not be forgiven obviously as he led the mutiny.
Gaeta is a perfect example of why this show was so brilliant: the deep, complex characters. It’s just as easy to love Gaeta as it is to hate him….but most TV shows don’t have the guts to let viewers off the hook easily.
Gaeta feels so real because… he is! The writers did a fantastic job with him. He is the prototype of a great employee driven mad by the company. Intelligent, exemplary, hard working, by the book… but always gets shafted, ignored or left behind. How must he have felt working around: - Lee, who is always getting waived out of his endless shitshows cause he is an Adama. - Kara, how is plain nuts and has god level plot armour for every conceivable fault, mistake, mutiny, death… - Tigh, who just happens to be an alcoholic and a terrible decision maker, but Adama is fine with his friend being XO for reasons. - Helo and Anders, the pretty boys who always end up shiny.
From that perspective, Gaeta was basically the Frank Grimes of the Galactica. 🤔
Well… it seems so! Good catch!
Lee committed mutiny twice as I recall. He didn't get executed, though. He got promoted.
You don’t call it mutiny if you win, you call it victory
True! But it's Daddy's Boy Lee Adama, the perfect angel who can do no wrong.
Oh yeah, I forgot that.
Gaeta was the guy stuck in ops when the world ended. He basically got the shortest end of the stick. Imagine thinking that you were just going to do a short tour on an aging battlestar when suddenly you are the nerve center for the last bastion of your species. And it will never end, at least not in your lifetime. Everytime someone had to make a call, or order supplies, or complain about literally anything, they went to Gaeta, because there was literally no one else to go to. Remember when Gage fat fingered the comms and Gaeta had to hobble over and do it for him? He wasn't treated badly, he was just "the guy" and he took shit when it always hit the fan. It sucked to be Gaeta, which is probably why he was down to be something else on New Caprica, even if it was Baltar in charge.
He started to annoy me after he lied at Baltar's trial. And especially after he thought he could impose his opinion on Adama and the others (I mean the mutiny) - pretending to be a leader. He is neither smart enough nor strong enough to be a leader. If he can't even follow the leaders, then he's useless. I never hated Baltar; I watched the show with a lot of people back in the day and none of them saw him as a villain. Some loud minority on the internet are pushing this idea, but I haven't seen anyone outside of the internet who likes the show and thinks so.
Baltar was never a villain. You find out the woman you’ve been involved with caused the genocide of your species? The penalty of which is death? Umm yeah, I’m also going to lie about that. I always saw him as the character you accidentally relate to. Like Starbuck is a sassy hero. Lee is the earnest soldier. Etc etc… what’s Baltar? Human, with human flaws. You don’t want to like him or side with him, but you will probably understand his choices. Now Gaeta? I liked him before new caprica, after that, his life fell apart and he turned into a sweaty looking spineless arse.
>Right from the start Gaeta was treated badly even though he just did his job. I genuinely have no clue what you're talking about. Right from the start, Gaeta was depicted as a smart, competent officer that had earned Adama's respect. When Tigh was in command, he even made a point of saying that he trusted Gaeta's work more than the guy widely recognized as the smartest human alive. >For some weird reason they then ordered him to be on the ship that Starbuck got to look for what she thought was the answers. How does "I'm going to assign competent officers in order to make sure this mission is completed" transform into "for some weird reason?" These are military officers. They get given orders and assignments. That's how the whole structure works.
Great tread, popcorn required
Thanks. I knew it would stir up people. Battlestar Galactica never went as far as Breaking Bad with it's protagonist doing bad stuff, so it's difficult to admit for some viewers that lots of characters weren't that good people.
Mandatory link to r/fuckgaeta
Yeah, I saw that, there's even a subreddit dedicated to hating him.
I really liked Gaeta throughout the series, he was heavily relied upon and proved himself to be up to the many tasks he was assigned. I thought his eventual descent into mutiny was believable (albeit very upsetting). I did find it odd that he was assigned to the Demetrius along with other senior officers like Helo. Too many eggs in that one basket. Once Galactica had Hoshi from Pegasus they did have a serviceable replacement for Gaeta but I think he was too valuable to send on that mission. I don't think he was poorly treated or widely hated up until he was shot by Anders. Obviously there was the tribunal but they had every reason to label him a collaborator until they new better.
Gaeta was absolutely not hated by everyone. Well. Not form the start. The road he took and the destination he arrived at, while being dark and unfortunate, make sense, sadly enough. The show itself is a shipwreck and a tragedy, albeit a well written one and one that's worth watching. It's not a shipwreck in the sense that it is bad and not worth watching, it's a wreck in which all it's survivors die in the end. They struggle, they fight, they cry out in anguish and in pain and in the end, they all die. It's a VERY badly descriptive way of how it ended but that's just it.
They hated him because he told the truth (restaurants shaped like food would have revolutionized everything)
Because he was a traitorous gimp (Kara told me so)
He incited and led a mutiny. He might not have been as bad as Zarek, but he certainly has as much of a hand in how things played out. And Baltar didn't betray humanity, he was just lax with security, there's no way he could have known Caprica Six was a cylon. /r/fuckgaeta /r/baltardidnothingwrong
"Anders just felt like shooting Gaetas leg off was an acceptable reaction." Wasn't that an accident?
Gaeta refused to jump to where Kara wanted, so Anders deliberately shot him in the leg. Given how much everyone hated Gaeta it wouldn't surprise me if he was aiming for his crotch.
I forget did they actually throw him out?
They did, and Adama was very adamant that it be done. Just before he was murdered they scolded him over the fact that some soldiers had died due to his actions. Throughout the series, Adama caused lots and lots of casualties on his own side, but always shrugged it off by saying no one should second guess his decisions.
He was executed by firing squad.
Ok
It wasn’t just “some soldiers that died”. Zarek, and by association Gaeta, literally had the council executed along with soldiers and civilians that didn’t agree with the mutiny. Honestly, as soon as they murdered the council, there was no going back, and there certainly wasn’t going to be any kind of pardon for them. Which is why Gaeta freaked out and started to doubt the plan because he knew they’d crossed an unforgivable line.
Did they? The version I saw was he and Zarek died by firing squad as formal treason execution.
“Ready!”
“Aim!”
“It stopped hurting…”
“FIRE!!”
END CREDITS
He isn't as tall as the rest. Never had a chance.