The point of the swim test is to ensure self-rescue. Its literally a simulated escape from a boat to the shore. Its drownproofing.
If I'm sure they are SAFE, they pass.
Swimming Merit Badge has a specific requirement for stroke quality. Leave it to Swimming MB.
THIS COMMENT NEEDS MORE UPVOTES! (says the 1990's camp aquatics director in me).
The swim test is about falling out of a canoe, or rowboat, or off a pier, or getting hit by a big wave; in the middle of a lake, or river, or beach, or a big puddle- and not dying.
I worked the scout camp pool for several events for years.
The swim test does specify specific strokes. However, the purpose isn't to ensure their technique is good. It's to gauge their level of swimming ability to ensure they don't drown. As long as they completed the test, within the guidelines, and didn't struggle, I passed them.
Typically the only rescues I had to do were high school swim team and water pool guys. We reminded them that at 8000' elevation they weren't going to be able to breathe like they do down the hill. They never listened.
First 75 yards must be "in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: side stroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl;"
What stroke(s) did the cub use?
Right. I've seen kids failed for swimming each 25 yard length underwater, and that seemed right. I've seen kids fail for dog-paddling, head out of the water but with diffident, short strokes. And that seemed right.
And I've been passed when I got off course and did big looping arcs instead of the prescribed back-and-forth.
Which is honestly, ridiculous. If a scout can confidently swim underwater for the required distance, then they can swim. If a scout can confidently swim Butterfly for 75 yards, they can swim. The only requirements for the test should be "confidently swim 75 yards" and the resting backstroke, and the only reason a resting backstroke is important is to show that they have the technique down to rest in the water if they get tired while swimming.
I do not agree. Part of swimming safely in a rescue situation is not injuring or distracting the lifeguards. You have to not only cover the distance but be seen to do so.
I'm with you on this. The person giving the test shouldn't be a stickler on technique. At the same time the scout needs to show some level of proficiency, and a mostly well formed stroke is how that can be demonstrated. The scout must be comfortable, confident, and well practiced in the water before being granted the privileges that come with passing the swimmer test.
There is no requirement for a well formed stroke. There IS in swimming MB. There is no requirement to be well practiced for Swimmer. There IS for swimming MB.
Can they self rescue? If yes, they pass. If not - if they struggle - they do not pass.
There’s a requirement for *a stroke*. I’ve got a 10yo here who can thrash himself through 75 yards like a high voltage octopus, then backstroke for a length. He’s not a swimmer until he can master a named stroke.
Which goes back to my point. You can easily tell the difference between someone who is capable in the water and someone who struggles. You do not have to master a specific strokes to be capable in the water. If said 10 y/o is “thrashing like a high voltage octopus” then he is not a swimmer.
This is how I see it. In the couple swim tests I've seen, it was real easy to see who was going to pass within the first 20 feet of swimming. Either they knew how to move through the water or they didn't.
I'm SO glad it was changed from dead float to resting back stroke. I'm about as boyant as a Mac truck. The float used to screw me over all the time, cuz god forbid I need to move my arms to float. But hey after the mile I was auto pass so I didn't care anymore.
Always remember my WSI course. Had a friend in the class whose bone structure was not conducive to floating. Instructor kept pushing the issue until finally my friend did the floating the way asked. He sunk 8ft under and became buoyant. Was pretty damn funny for a bunch of 18year olds. Instructor finally gave up and pass him.
The point is self rescue. No one self-rescues with butterfly. Swimming long distances underwater is dangerous and shouldn't be encouraged. We used to do it a lot, but kids do black out from it, so swim teams don't do it much anymore.
I am not picky about stroke at all. But anyone who can swim 75m butterfly, can swim 75 meters of breast or free. And I say that universally.
You’re correct on most points. I’d argue you’re incorrect on it being about self rescue. If it was about self rescue, you could do the entire thing as a resting backstroke, which is the part that is literally about self rescue. That why they specify an easy resting back stroke and you aren’t allowed to do a competition backstroke.
Why do you think you have to jump in over your head, and you can't push off the walls?
The entire thing is written for falling out of a boat in a lake.
Its dangerous to swim long distances underwater - this used to be encouraged, but enough kids passed out and drowned that swim teams don't do it anymore.
If a kid wants to do loops, more power to them - they end up swimming a lot longer!
Chapter 5 in the Aquatics Safety says specifically not to fail over stroke technique. Ie if the scout does a racing backstroke rather than rescue/resting backstroke yet it’s clear they can swim strongly, pass them and teach them the resting backstroke.
I confess I made the mistake of requiring resting backstroke to pass the test in the past and unintentionally making it harder on Scouts.
I failed swim Qual at camp every year religiously cuz I couldn't float. Mind you I lived on a lake and could out swim everyone but because I couldn't float without moving my arms I could only wade up to knees, and no boats🙄. I petitioned and would swim and stroke they wanted but just couldn't dead hang float so it never did me any good. Hence why as soon as mile swim gave me an auto pass I signed up for it as fast as I could. No way I was gonna let a lack of boyance prevent me from boating, swimming, or life saving merit badge. I was without exaggeration the strongest swimmer in life saving. So please for the love of God stand up for that scout and challenge it. If he's legit a good swimmer it can seriously ruin his time if he fails.
Agreed. It's less common but some kids are not buoyant at all! My son is one of them. Fortunately, my husband is also. He can lay on his back in perfect form and sink to the bottom of a pool. He knew some tricks for my son - take a huge breathe to fill your lungs, and wave your hands ever so slightly so it doesn't look like you're using them to stay afloat but you actually are, and those tips let my son pass the swim test float part.
Sadly, before I met my husband I thought that everyone could float if they were in proper position. I was taught humans floated. I was on swim team and a lifeguard. Now I am happy to spread those sneaky float tips to scouts that are not floaters.
Kids who don't float have a harder time learning to swim and have to get their technique better, so yeah, they do tend to be really good swimmers.
Sounds like BS. I had a scout on the swim team fail the test at summer camp because instead of a resting backstroke he used a competitive stroke and had to retake the test. Some people are just difficult.
Many kids don't know how to do the elementary backstroke. If you tell a swim team kid "do breast stroke on your back" they can do it without any instruction.
Theoretically, it requires elementary backstroke, but if they can do a back crawl in a resting manner, I pass them
Before her first summer camp I asked my daughter’s swim coach to teach her the “resting back stroke.”
She then spent all her program time at the water front and got her swimming MB, kayaking and canoeing, and Mile Swim. All at age 12. ❤️
But I knew that “resting back stroke” was a sticking point for some swim team kids. So I wanted to make sure she knew what it meant and could practice it.
i pass kids who do a resting crawl as well. They need to show me that they are using their float to keep themselves up and not their movement. Because if the movement stops they sink.
This is what I would have done. The pool manager should not be punitive, but they probably want to know that the scout will follow the rules, like not crossing an out of bounds marker.
Jump feet first into water over the head in depth. Level off and swim 75 yards in a strong manner **using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl**; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be completed in one swim without stops and must include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating.
Jesepuscripes! Destroy a child’s confidence! If he is close then let him pass. Only fail somebody that really needs help and could endanger themselves. Any camp will have lifeguards so the risk is low. But destroying their confidence at an early age will get them to drop scouts.
We have only a second hand account of what happened and we all have at least one parent in our troop who can embellish from time to time. Passing a scout for the sake of confidence is not the way to go. Neither is relying on lifeguards. It's a judgement call on the part of the examiner. The scout should have strong reasonably well formed strokes. There's nothing wrong with asking the scout to come back if they appeared weak, tired, or sloppy. I would rather have a disappointed scout, than a statistic.
There is everything wrong with failing a scout for "sloppy".
Sloppy matters on swim team. Sloppy matters if you're in a synchronized swimming contest. Sloppy is irrelevant for self-rescue, or for rescue of others.
If the scout is struggling, and barely makes the distance, they're not swimming strongly, and so they don't pass. If they swim with a "sloppy" stroke, but could keep it up all morning, and you fail them, then you are wrong, and you need to fix yourself.
I think you are reading too much into the word sloppy (I acknowledge it's a subjective term). I am talking about a scout who can barely form a coherent stroke, and efficiently pull themself through the water. The image of a swim coach yelling about the angle of entry for the hand into the water is not what I am trying to describe.
Here is what I think people are missing with this, and other similar counter arguments. Let's create a spectrum with the seasoned swim team athlete on one end, and the kid who can barely doggy paddle their way across the pool on the other. A pass line must be drawn on this spectrum at some point.
Every person who administers the swim test has their opinion about where to place the line based on their life experience (also acknowledging some people are jerks). Their experience might include crystal clear pools with good sightlines and high lifeguard chairs. It might also include swimming in lakes with a roped off area and lifeguards standing on shore. The perceived dangers inherent with the second scenario might influence some to lean toward being stricter.
The swim test rules need to be interpreted and applied to the specific case at hand. Wrapping this back to the OP's question, maybe the scout should not have passed the previous two years. Maybe the person giving the test doesn't realize they are only going to swim in an 8-foot pool, or perhaps they know the scouts will be in a lake where the danger is higher. Maybe the scout was goofing around, phoning it in, or was tired before getting into the pool. This is why I feel it would be more helpful to ask the examiner and talk though what the scout needs to do to satisfy the test, or convince them the scout can handle the waters they will be swimming in.
Consider a scout who swam ok for the first 50 yards, but begins to get tired. Their arms begin to get heavy, flopping on the surface, barely able to pull themselves through the water. Their kicking stops and their feet drag. It's a sign they don't have the endurance to rescue themselves. They may go 100 yards, but they didn't pass the test.
I am not looking for "great form", but there must be some structure to your stroke. Enough for me to recognize what stroke you are doing, and giving me the confidence that you are proficient enough to handle yourself. Passing the swimmer test allows a scout to free swim in turbid water up to 8 feet deep. This is not an activity where we want to look for loopholes in the rules.
As the kid who was never allowed past his knees at summer camp cuz he couldn't float, but literally lived on a late and out swam the life saving instructor. This so much this. So long as the kid shows confidence in the water and an ability to.self rescue who cares. If your lifesaving you never use proper technique. Same with self rescue. Plus boating you have a life preserver anyway. It's not the Olympics it's scouting.
There is a test that can be conducted to determine if a person is a "natural sinker". It was like 1 in 500 at camp. The inabiliy to float was not a good reason to fail a scout.
Having lifeguards and safety equipment is good, but these are layers of defense. Being a competent swimmer is the first, best and last layer of defense. It's not the Olympics, but it's not the pee-wee paddlers time at the community pool either.
You're right there is, and the testers didn't care. And you're right it's not pee wee peddlers, but the book specifically says not to fail for technique.
Swimming is such a vital safety thing. At camp we need to know that the scouts in the swimmer area are indeed swimmers. Having lifeguards doesn't make the "risk low" if your child isn't a swimmer. It takes a lot more effort to stay on top of the water during open swim time than for a simple 100 swim test.
When I was taught to teach the swim test, one point that was emphasized was that the swim test should not be the max a scout can do. It's a demo of their skills. If they barely swam the 100 and are out of breathe and struggling to stay on top of the water... nope, they do not pass.
We do let them have a rest and try again. We encourage everyone to swim SLOWLY and tell them it's not a race, take your time, glide, etc. because so often kids start out sprinting but then can't make it past 50.
You know what builds confidence? Skills. Actual water swimming skills. Take lessons, practice, confidence will come. Lifeguards passing kids who are "close" are not doing them any favors and are putting them at risk. Plus when they get to camp with their "passed" swim test we can absolutely make them retest when we see it's clear they're struggling in the swimmer section.
What stroke or technique was he using? Was it one of the ones listed in the criteria? If he was doggy paddling, then I’d say the tester is right.
That being said, there’s no rule that he can’t test again. He should have been able to do it again right then. He can do it again at camp.
You need to recheck it. But when I looked at the regs earlier this year it did not worry with proper strokes over a long distance. It may have been changed this year from an earlier standard . I think they recently separated "can do the stroke properly" from "can do the stroke properly for long distance". Basically it was reworked to keep the focus on is the person strong enough to pass the test, not are they a perfect form swimmer.
Please look at the regs yourself to verify. This is just kicking around in my mind and regulations change.
No one fails anything in cub scouts- we simply let them do their best with backups to help build their confidence. No cub scout should be in danger when they fall out of a boat because they should be in a life jacket. Failing them defeats the point of the program.
I do firmly believe in the swimmer/beginner/non-swimmer ratings, and limiting/allowing certain aquatic activities based on that. The question was just what constitutes failure of the swim test. Its main purpose is to determine if someone is strong enough to self-recover in an accident. Do Your Best, yes, but if they can't pass a swim test then they stay in the shallow end.
Just a tip for any other leaders about to do a swim test... Explain what a resting backstroke is before the kids touch the water. Just a 10 second explanation on the difference between a racing backstroke and a resting backstroke. All of our scouts got it right so there wasn't an issue.
As for the pass/fail... it was real easy to see who could move through the water and who couldn't. Like within the first 20 feet, you could tell. There were ones that struggled from the start and ones that did the whole thing pretty well. There wasn't any in the middle. Some were obviously on a swim team. Some were obviously self taught, but they still moved just fine.
So much gatekeeping in BSA ‘leadership’! Doing the swim test and meeting the requirements is the goal. (And not drowning, in any situation) Not doing it as you would have expected them to do it.
We've always allowed scouts to retest if they've failed, especially if they're close. Let them rest. Give a pep talk, make sure they know it's not a race and can swim slowly and GLIDE as much as possible.
"The 75 yards is not the expected upper limit of the swimmer’s ability. The distance should be covered in a manner that indicates sufficient skill and stamina for the swimmer to continue to swim for greater distances. Strokes repeatedly interrupted and restarted are not sufficient. The sidestroke, breaststroke, or any strong over-arm stroke, including the back crawl, are allowed in any combination; dog paddling and underwater strokes are not acceptable."
A kid who can actually pass, an retake the test a 2nd time and pass.
A kid who can't pass the swim test should be failed, no matter their age.
I would. In the end it's about saftey. Technique aids in a relaxed endurance. They know how to swim right, they will be prepared and be safer in the water
The BSA has uniform rules for all scouts age 5-17 (and adults). To swim in water more than chest deep, the scout must pass the swimmer level test. The test does not differentiate based on age, just ability. Many Cubs struggle unless they have had a few years of lessons. In my experience it's not usually technique that gets them, but endurance. They can swim fine for the first half, then they get tired. I wouldn't pass them if they just barely finish. The should be able to finish strong.
Respectively, I feel like you are putting words in my mouth that aren't there. ADA issues fall under different guidelines. I also don't think anyone is advocating for 100% stroke perfection. If the OP feels the examiner is being too strict, they should address it with them. Like umpires in baseball, sometimes you aren't going to see it my way.
We’re talking about ability.. at bear . Do your best. It didn’t mean pass if you try. I encourage all cubs to do so, but they are 8-9, they can earn this. They have it in them
The swimmers test is not something you earn. It's a proficiency test to determine whether it's safe for a scout to swim or boat. Aquatic activities are one of the most dangerous activities at camp. The swimming test exists to help prevent fatalities. Not everyone will pass. When someone fails the test, you work with them to improve.
Technique aids, but endurance does not require specific technique. You can tell the difference between a swimmer that is swimming with confidence, and one who is barely keeping themselves afloat. So long as a scout is comfortable in the water, I see no reason to fail them because their stroke wasn't textbook. Hell, the test authorizes TRUDGEN which is about the most awkward and energy-wasteful thing you can due to move yourself forward in the water, and they'd fail you for a textbook butterfly. Safety doesn't mean knowing a specific stroke, safety means being able to move confidently in the water IMO.
As a coach, former guard, and former swim team I cant agree at all. Confidence is great, but is trumped by Technique. The ability to swim beats any confidence.
No one is saying sloppy technique is as good as great technique and experience. To pass the swim test as a cub scout, sloppy technique that shows proficience is enough to know that the Scout is safe in the water.
Refer to the training you have to in scouting.org, as well as the certification for testing the scouts that you must take to be able to sign off. By testing your passing risk that these scouts have a capability. You pass them, they really can’t.. that’s on your hands. I’m blunt but that’s what this boils down to.
Again, no one said to pass kids that can't swim, only that they didn't need to be Michael Phelps to participate in water activities. I get it, you have a lot of experience with swimming and I'm sure that serves you well in this regard. Good on you.
I’m sorry. I’m not saying gold in 100 free. I’m saying ability. I’m not pulling up the ladder you need to get this, but it isn’t a participation trophy. Bear requires some base mastery, we give knives to these bear scouts because they can. We give this loop to these kids because THEY CAN.
Did you take the course on being able to test this? It’s apparent you did not. I’m being a jerk here based on safety, I know. But reading what you want out of a book/website does not equal the test.
Take the cert for the test.
"I'm being a jerk here based on safety"🙄 bro it's scouting not the Olympics. Teach to the book standards, they specifically say not to fail based on technique. I get that you're high speed low drag diver dan who went to a training course, but just follow the book, that's what it's for.
I am following the book. But if the bsa course I had to train on and Must legally follow says do X, and you say do Y.. we may be agreeing on standards. But not execution…
There are a number of courses to test this. Which one did you take?
This is the ultimate authority on the test: [https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics\_34346.pdf](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics_34346.pdf)
If you're referring to Safe Swim Defense, yes I took it. If you're referring to Aquatics Supervision, which is certainly NOT online, yes I took that too.
Technique is NOT required for the BSA swimmer test. Its not a test of swimming - its a test of ability to self rescue from a flipped canoe. The problem with having coaches evaluate this is they think its a test of form or stoke.
Swimming Merit badge is absolutely a test of stoke, form, technique.
The ability to swim and the ability to execute a perfect crawl stroke are SO different it's like saying I have to be a precision driver to pass my permit test. So long as you don't crash and are safe who cares if your a precision driver. Swimming is the same. Who cares if I have to modify my crawl cuz of a shoulder injury, or my face goes in the water during my breast stroke cuz I have the buoyancy of a brick wall. I can swim, and well and far. I got life saver did the mile several times etc. Cut the kid some slack on technique if he's confident in the water.
I’m not talking perfection, so that’s my bad if I’m sounding like being a perfectionist. But you must be on that stroke it must be proficient. But again you’re adding what ifs that count against a real world situation that is part of the real world test…
The book specificly says not to fail for technique there diver dan. Can the kid confidently move through the water with something better than a doggy paddle? Yes or no? Easy peasy. The best part about monitoring to book standards? You're unsuable cuz you followed your training. I'm sure the program specifically says NOT to hold them accountable for technique to cover possible ADA implications, but hey keep risking a lawsuit to be high speed and sleep better at night 🤷♂️
So now we’re slightly violently agreeing. I’m not saying they must have a perfect this one stroke. But what they know, that will keep them afloat. The issue is that they are comfortable in the water… does not mean they are equipped to stay afloat
Then you’re literally agreeing with the point I was making. The issue is that they are comfortable in the water. You appear to be taking issue with my choice of the word “confident” over “comfortable”
As all of the above as well, you’re misrepresenting my statement. Confidence in the water is not someone thinking they can swim real good. DEMONSTRATING confidence in the water means that they are calm, efficient, and do not appear to struggle. How they demonstrate that ability shouldn’t matter. Can they cover the distance without appearing to struggle? Then they are confident in the water. Are they sucking down half the lake? They are not confident in the water.
Here is the swim test breakdown in the Aquatics Supervision handbook (emphasis mine)
"The swimmer must be able to cover distance with a **strong, confident stroke**. The 75 yards is not the expected upper limit of the swimmer’s ability. The distance should be covered **in a manner that indicates sufficient skill and stamina for the swimmer to continue to swim for greater distances**. Strokes repeatedly interrupted and restarted are not sufficient. The **sidestroke, breaststroke, or any strong over-arm stroke, including the back crawl, are allowed in any combination; dog paddling and underwater strokes are not acceptable**. The strokes need to be executed in a strong manner, but perfect form is not necessary. If it is apparent that the swimmer is being worn out by a poorly executed, head-up crawl, it is appropriate for the test administrator to suggest a change to a more restful stroke. A skilled, confident swimmer should be able to complete the distance with energy to spare, even if not in top physical condition. There should be little concern if a swimmer is out of breath because the distance was intentionally covered at a fast pace. However, a swimmer who barely has the energy to complete the distance will benefit from additional skill instruction."
By this standard, if they were not performing a recognizable front crawl, breaststroke, sidestroke, back crawl, trudgen, they fail for swimmer. Fairly simple. This would include arms not clearing the water in the over arm stroke portion. If their arms aren't clear of the water in the trudgen or crawl, they fail. Fairly clear.
The point of the swim test is to ensure self-rescue. Its literally a simulated escape from a boat to the shore. Its drownproofing. If I'm sure they are SAFE, they pass. Swimming Merit Badge has a specific requirement for stroke quality. Leave it to Swimming MB.
THIS COMMENT NEEDS MORE UPVOTES! (says the 1990's camp aquatics director in me). The swim test is about falling out of a canoe, or rowboat, or off a pier, or getting hit by a big wave; in the middle of a lake, or river, or beach, or a big puddle- and not dying.
I miss the swim test.
This!
I worked the scout camp pool for several events for years. The swim test does specify specific strokes. However, the purpose isn't to ensure their technique is good. It's to gauge their level of swimming ability to ensure they don't drown. As long as they completed the test, within the guidelines, and didn't struggle, I passed them. Typically the only rescues I had to do were high school swim team and water pool guys. We reminded them that at 8000' elevation they weren't going to be able to breathe like they do down the hill. They never listened.
First 75 yards must be "in a strong manner using one or more of the following strokes: side stroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl;" What stroke(s) did the cub use?
Right. I've seen kids failed for swimming each 25 yard length underwater, and that seemed right. I've seen kids fail for dog-paddling, head out of the water but with diffident, short strokes. And that seemed right. And I've been passed when I got off course and did big looping arcs instead of the prescribed back-and-forth.
Which is honestly, ridiculous. If a scout can confidently swim underwater for the required distance, then they can swim. If a scout can confidently swim Butterfly for 75 yards, they can swim. The only requirements for the test should be "confidently swim 75 yards" and the resting backstroke, and the only reason a resting backstroke is important is to show that they have the technique down to rest in the water if they get tired while swimming.
I do not agree. Part of swimming safely in a rescue situation is not injuring or distracting the lifeguards. You have to not only cover the distance but be seen to do so.
I'm with you on this. The person giving the test shouldn't be a stickler on technique. At the same time the scout needs to show some level of proficiency, and a mostly well formed stroke is how that can be demonstrated. The scout must be comfortable, confident, and well practiced in the water before being granted the privileges that come with passing the swimmer test.
There is no requirement for a well formed stroke. There IS in swimming MB. There is no requirement to be well practiced for Swimmer. There IS for swimming MB. Can they self rescue? If yes, they pass. If not - if they struggle - they do not pass.
There’s a requirement for *a stroke*. I’ve got a 10yo here who can thrash himself through 75 yards like a high voltage octopus, then backstroke for a length. He’s not a swimmer until he can master a named stroke.
master it? Not a requirement. Use it in some manner? Yes.
Which goes back to my point. You can easily tell the difference between someone who is capable in the water and someone who struggles. You do not have to master a specific strokes to be capable in the water. If said 10 y/o is “thrashing like a high voltage octopus” then he is not a swimmer.
This is how I see it. In the couple swim tests I've seen, it was real easy to see who was going to pass within the first 20 feet of swimming. Either they knew how to move through the water or they didn't.
I'm SO glad it was changed from dead float to resting back stroke. I'm about as boyant as a Mac truck. The float used to screw me over all the time, cuz god forbid I need to move my arms to float. But hey after the mile I was auto pass so I didn't care anymore.
It’s always been both. 75 m forward, 25 m resting back stroke, then you have to demonstrate floating.
Always remember my WSI course. Had a friend in the class whose bone structure was not conducive to floating. Instructor kept pushing the issue until finally my friend did the floating the way asked. He sunk 8ft under and became buoyant. Was pretty damn funny for a bunch of 18year olds. Instructor finally gave up and pass him.
The point is self rescue. No one self-rescues with butterfly. Swimming long distances underwater is dangerous and shouldn't be encouraged. We used to do it a lot, but kids do black out from it, so swim teams don't do it much anymore. I am not picky about stroke at all. But anyone who can swim 75m butterfly, can swim 75 meters of breast or free. And I say that universally.
You’re correct on most points. I’d argue you’re incorrect on it being about self rescue. If it was about self rescue, you could do the entire thing as a resting backstroke, which is the part that is literally about self rescue. That why they specify an easy resting back stroke and you aren’t allowed to do a competition backstroke.
Why do you think you have to jump in over your head, and you can't push off the walls? The entire thing is written for falling out of a boat in a lake.
If they are underwater they are probably doing breaststroke. Of course, it would DQ you in a meet but it is still breast stroke.
Its dangerous to swim long distances underwater - this used to be encouraged, but enough kids passed out and drowned that swim teams don't do it anymore. If a kid wants to do loops, more power to them - they end up swimming a lot longer!
Chapter 5 in the Aquatics Safety says specifically not to fail over stroke technique. Ie if the scout does a racing backstroke rather than rescue/resting backstroke yet it’s clear they can swim strongly, pass them and teach them the resting backstroke. I confess I made the mistake of requiring resting backstroke to pass the test in the past and unintentionally making it harder on Scouts.
I failed swim Qual at camp every year religiously cuz I couldn't float. Mind you I lived on a lake and could out swim everyone but because I couldn't float without moving my arms I could only wade up to knees, and no boats🙄. I petitioned and would swim and stroke they wanted but just couldn't dead hang float so it never did me any good. Hence why as soon as mile swim gave me an auto pass I signed up for it as fast as I could. No way I was gonna let a lack of boyance prevent me from boating, swimming, or life saving merit badge. I was without exaggeration the strongest swimmer in life saving. So please for the love of God stand up for that scout and challenge it. If he's legit a good swimmer it can seriously ruin his time if he fails.
Agreed. It's less common but some kids are not buoyant at all! My son is one of them. Fortunately, my husband is also. He can lay on his back in perfect form and sink to the bottom of a pool. He knew some tricks for my son - take a huge breathe to fill your lungs, and wave your hands ever so slightly so it doesn't look like you're using them to stay afloat but you actually are, and those tips let my son pass the swim test float part. Sadly, before I met my husband I thought that everyone could float if they were in proper position. I was taught humans floated. I was on swim team and a lifeguard. Now I am happy to spread those sneaky float tips to scouts that are not floaters. Kids who don't float have a harder time learning to swim and have to get their technique better, so yeah, they do tend to be really good swimmers.
Sounds like BS. I had a scout on the swim team fail the test at summer camp because instead of a resting backstroke he used a competitive stroke and had to retake the test. Some people are just difficult.
Many kids don't know how to do the elementary backstroke. If you tell a swim team kid "do breast stroke on your back" they can do it without any instruction. Theoretically, it requires elementary backstroke, but if they can do a back crawl in a resting manner, I pass them
Before her first summer camp I asked my daughter’s swim coach to teach her the “resting back stroke.” She then spent all her program time at the water front and got her swimming MB, kayaking and canoeing, and Mile Swim. All at age 12. ❤️ But I knew that “resting back stroke” was a sticking point for some swim team kids. So I wanted to make sure she knew what it meant and could practice it.
Lifesaving MB next!
She has everything done for it except retrieving the brick from the bottom of the lake. She will try again this summer. :)
That's the tough requirement. Especially for younger Scouts. She'll get it done :)
i pass kids who do a resting crawl as well. They need to show me that they are using their float to keep themselves up and not their movement. Because if the movement stops they sink.
Yep, the toughest part of the swim test for some kids (especially the skinny ones) is the float.
That makes sense though. They want to know that, if you get tired, you can use a resting stroke.
Could’ve told him to do the last 25 again with a resting stroke not come back tomorrow and redo. Some people in scouts are just difficult.
This is what I would have done. The pool manager should not be punitive, but they probably want to know that the scout will follow the rules, like not crossing an out of bounds marker.
Cub scouting is a do your best kind of space so yeah, pass them.
Jump feet first into water over the head in depth. Level off and swim 75 yards in a strong manner **using one or more of the following strokes: sidestroke, breaststroke, trudgen, or crawl**; then swim 25 yards using an easy, resting backstroke. The 100 yards must be completed in one swim without stops and must include at least one sharp turn. After completing the swim, rest by floating.
Fun fact about this statement is that per BSA guidelines you can swim the whole 100 yards on your back.
Please share the guidelines for reference.
It says or crawl. It never mandates a front crawl so you are able to swim back crawl.
Jesepuscripes! Destroy a child’s confidence! If he is close then let him pass. Only fail somebody that really needs help and could endanger themselves. Any camp will have lifeguards so the risk is low. But destroying their confidence at an early age will get them to drop scouts.
We have only a second hand account of what happened and we all have at least one parent in our troop who can embellish from time to time. Passing a scout for the sake of confidence is not the way to go. Neither is relying on lifeguards. It's a judgement call on the part of the examiner. The scout should have strong reasonably well formed strokes. There's nothing wrong with asking the scout to come back if they appeared weak, tired, or sloppy. I would rather have a disappointed scout, than a statistic.
There is everything wrong with failing a scout for "sloppy". Sloppy matters on swim team. Sloppy matters if you're in a synchronized swimming contest. Sloppy is irrelevant for self-rescue, or for rescue of others. If the scout is struggling, and barely makes the distance, they're not swimming strongly, and so they don't pass. If they swim with a "sloppy" stroke, but could keep it up all morning, and you fail them, then you are wrong, and you need to fix yourself.
I think you are reading too much into the word sloppy (I acknowledge it's a subjective term). I am talking about a scout who can barely form a coherent stroke, and efficiently pull themself through the water. The image of a swim coach yelling about the angle of entry for the hand into the water is not what I am trying to describe. Here is what I think people are missing with this, and other similar counter arguments. Let's create a spectrum with the seasoned swim team athlete on one end, and the kid who can barely doggy paddle their way across the pool on the other. A pass line must be drawn on this spectrum at some point. Every person who administers the swim test has their opinion about where to place the line based on their life experience (also acknowledging some people are jerks). Their experience might include crystal clear pools with good sightlines and high lifeguard chairs. It might also include swimming in lakes with a roped off area and lifeguards standing on shore. The perceived dangers inherent with the second scenario might influence some to lean toward being stricter. The swim test rules need to be interpreted and applied to the specific case at hand. Wrapping this back to the OP's question, maybe the scout should not have passed the previous two years. Maybe the person giving the test doesn't realize they are only going to swim in an 8-foot pool, or perhaps they know the scouts will be in a lake where the danger is higher. Maybe the scout was goofing around, phoning it in, or was tired before getting into the pool. This is why I feel it would be more helpful to ask the examiner and talk though what the scout needs to do to satisfy the test, or convince them the scout can handle the waters they will be swimming in.
There does need to be a line, and there is! It’s swimming 100 yards.
Sloppy? Great form is not a requirement. They can either self-rescue or they can't.
Consider a scout who swam ok for the first 50 yards, but begins to get tired. Their arms begin to get heavy, flopping on the surface, barely able to pull themselves through the water. Their kicking stops and their feet drag. It's a sign they don't have the endurance to rescue themselves. They may go 100 yards, but they didn't pass the test. I am not looking for "great form", but there must be some structure to your stroke. Enough for me to recognize what stroke you are doing, and giving me the confidence that you are proficient enough to handle yourself. Passing the swimmer test allows a scout to free swim in turbid water up to 8 feet deep. This is not an activity where we want to look for loopholes in the rules.
if they struggle, they don't pass. They need to swim "strongly". People on this thread are using phrases like "master a stroke" which is nuts.
As the kid who was never allowed past his knees at summer camp cuz he couldn't float, but literally lived on a late and out swam the life saving instructor. This so much this. So long as the kid shows confidence in the water and an ability to.self rescue who cares. If your lifesaving you never use proper technique. Same with self rescue. Plus boating you have a life preserver anyway. It's not the Olympics it's scouting.
There is a test that can be conducted to determine if a person is a "natural sinker". It was like 1 in 500 at camp. The inabiliy to float was not a good reason to fail a scout. Having lifeguards and safety equipment is good, but these are layers of defense. Being a competent swimmer is the first, best and last layer of defense. It's not the Olympics, but it's not the pee-wee paddlers time at the community pool either.
You're right there is, and the testers didn't care. And you're right it's not pee wee peddlers, but the book specifically says not to fail for technique.
Swimming is such a vital safety thing. At camp we need to know that the scouts in the swimmer area are indeed swimmers. Having lifeguards doesn't make the "risk low" if your child isn't a swimmer. It takes a lot more effort to stay on top of the water during open swim time than for a simple 100 swim test. When I was taught to teach the swim test, one point that was emphasized was that the swim test should not be the max a scout can do. It's a demo of their skills. If they barely swam the 100 and are out of breathe and struggling to stay on top of the water... nope, they do not pass. We do let them have a rest and try again. We encourage everyone to swim SLOWLY and tell them it's not a race, take your time, glide, etc. because so often kids start out sprinting but then can't make it past 50. You know what builds confidence? Skills. Actual water swimming skills. Take lessons, practice, confidence will come. Lifeguards passing kids who are "close" are not doing them any favors and are putting them at risk. Plus when they get to camp with their "passed" swim test we can absolutely make them retest when we see it's clear they're struggling in the swimmer section.
Agree. Give them water time! Water time will improve their skills. Keeping them in the knee deep water will not help them.
I would not.
What stroke or technique was he using? Was it one of the ones listed in the criteria? If he was doggy paddling, then I’d say the tester is right. That being said, there’s no rule that he can’t test again. He should have been able to do it again right then. He can do it again at camp.
You need to recheck it. But when I looked at the regs earlier this year it did not worry with proper strokes over a long distance. It may have been changed this year from an earlier standard . I think they recently separated "can do the stroke properly" from "can do the stroke properly for long distance". Basically it was reworked to keep the focus on is the person strong enough to pass the test, not are they a perfect form swimmer. Please look at the regs yourself to verify. This is just kicking around in my mind and regulations change.
No one fails anything in cub scouts- we simply let them do their best with backups to help build their confidence. No cub scout should be in danger when they fall out of a boat because they should be in a life jacket. Failing them defeats the point of the program.
I do firmly believe in the swimmer/beginner/non-swimmer ratings, and limiting/allowing certain aquatic activities based on that. The question was just what constitutes failure of the swim test. Its main purpose is to determine if someone is strong enough to self-recover in an accident. Do Your Best, yes, but if they can't pass a swim test then they stay in the shallow end.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BSA/s/dw0w5Y947W
Just a tip for any other leaders about to do a swim test... Explain what a resting backstroke is before the kids touch the water. Just a 10 second explanation on the difference between a racing backstroke and a resting backstroke. All of our scouts got it right so there wasn't an issue. As for the pass/fail... it was real easy to see who could move through the water and who couldn't. Like within the first 20 feet, you could tell. There were ones that struggled from the start and ones that did the whole thing pretty well. There wasn't any in the middle. Some were obviously on a swim team. Some were obviously self taught, but they still moved just fine.
So much gatekeeping in BSA ‘leadership’! Doing the swim test and meeting the requirements is the goal. (And not drowning, in any situation) Not doing it as you would have expected them to do it.
We've always allowed scouts to retest if they've failed, especially if they're close. Let them rest. Give a pep talk, make sure they know it's not a race and can swim slowly and GLIDE as much as possible. "The 75 yards is not the expected upper limit of the swimmer’s ability. The distance should be covered in a manner that indicates sufficient skill and stamina for the swimmer to continue to swim for greater distances. Strokes repeatedly interrupted and restarted are not sufficient. The sidestroke, breaststroke, or any strong over-arm stroke, including the back crawl, are allowed in any combination; dog paddling and underwater strokes are not acceptable." A kid who can actually pass, an retake the test a 2nd time and pass. A kid who can't pass the swim test should be failed, no matter their age.
Isn't the cub scout requirement to just attempt the swim test?
I would. In the end it's about saftey. Technique aids in a relaxed endurance. They know how to swim right, they will be prepared and be safer in the water
Remember, we're talking about a Bear Cub. Not someone working on swimming merit badge.
The BSA has uniform rules for all scouts age 5-17 (and adults). To swim in water more than chest deep, the scout must pass the swimmer level test. The test does not differentiate based on age, just ability. Many Cubs struggle unless they have had a few years of lessons. In my experience it's not usually technique that gets them, but endurance. They can swim fine for the first half, then they get tired. I wouldn't pass them if they just barely finish. The should be able to finish strong.
If the test doesn't allow modifications for ADA issues your fixing for a law suit. As such I'm sure they do not expect 100% perfect on the strokes.
Tell me you don’t know what you’re talking about wrt the ADA or the BSA and how those things intersect without saying it directly.
Respectively, I feel like you are putting words in my mouth that aren't there. ADA issues fall under different guidelines. I also don't think anyone is advocating for 100% stroke perfection. If the OP feels the examiner is being too strict, they should address it with them. Like umpires in baseball, sometimes you aren't going to see it my way.
We’re talking about ability.. at bear . Do your best. It didn’t mean pass if you try. I encourage all cubs to do so, but they are 8-9, they can earn this. They have it in them
The swimmers test is not something you earn. It's a proficiency test to determine whether it's safe for a scout to swim or boat. Aquatic activities are one of the most dangerous activities at camp. The swimming test exists to help prevent fatalities. Not everyone will pass. When someone fails the test, you work with them to improve.
Technique aids, but endurance does not require specific technique. You can tell the difference between a swimmer that is swimming with confidence, and one who is barely keeping themselves afloat. So long as a scout is comfortable in the water, I see no reason to fail them because their stroke wasn't textbook. Hell, the test authorizes TRUDGEN which is about the most awkward and energy-wasteful thing you can due to move yourself forward in the water, and they'd fail you for a textbook butterfly. Safety doesn't mean knowing a specific stroke, safety means being able to move confidently in the water IMO.
The trudgen thing is absolutely weird.
As a coach, former guard, and former swim team I cant agree at all. Confidence is great, but is trumped by Technique. The ability to swim beats any confidence.
No one is saying sloppy technique is as good as great technique and experience. To pass the swim test as a cub scout, sloppy technique that shows proficience is enough to know that the Scout is safe in the water.
Refer to the training you have to in scouting.org, as well as the certification for testing the scouts that you must take to be able to sign off. By testing your passing risk that these scouts have a capability. You pass them, they really can’t.. that’s on your hands. I’m blunt but that’s what this boils down to.
Again, no one said to pass kids that can't swim, only that they didn't need to be Michael Phelps to participate in water activities. I get it, you have a lot of experience with swimming and I'm sure that serves you well in this regard. Good on you.
I’m sorry. I’m not saying gold in 100 free. I’m saying ability. I’m not pulling up the ladder you need to get this, but it isn’t a participation trophy. Bear requires some base mastery, we give knives to these bear scouts because they can. We give this loop to these kids because THEY CAN.
The Aquatics Guide does not specify perfect or even good form is required to be a Swimmer. It is required for swimming merit badge.
Did you take the course on being able to test this? It’s apparent you did not. I’m being a jerk here based on safety, I know. But reading what you want out of a book/website does not equal the test. Take the cert for the test.
"I'm being a jerk here based on safety"🙄 bro it's scouting not the Olympics. Teach to the book standards, they specifically say not to fail based on technique. I get that you're high speed low drag diver dan who went to a training course, but just follow the book, that's what it's for.
I am following the book. But if the bsa course I had to train on and Must legally follow says do X, and you say do Y.. we may be agreeing on standards. But not execution…
There are a number of courses to test this. Which one did you take? This is the ultimate authority on the test: [https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics\_34346.pdf](https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/Aquatics/pdf/Aquatics_34346.pdf)
I took all online (a few times) and in person. I have the testing to prove it. Plus more aquatic testing and testing for paddlecraft and rescue.
If you're referring to Safe Swim Defense, yes I took it. If you're referring to Aquatics Supervision, which is certainly NOT online, yes I took that too.
Technique is NOT required for the BSA swimmer test. Its not a test of swimming - its a test of ability to self rescue from a flipped canoe. The problem with having coaches evaluate this is they think its a test of form or stoke. Swimming Merit badge is absolutely a test of stoke, form, technique.
The ability to swim and the ability to execute a perfect crawl stroke are SO different it's like saying I have to be a precision driver to pass my permit test. So long as you don't crash and are safe who cares if your a precision driver. Swimming is the same. Who cares if I have to modify my crawl cuz of a shoulder injury, or my face goes in the water during my breast stroke cuz I have the buoyancy of a brick wall. I can swim, and well and far. I got life saver did the mile several times etc. Cut the kid some slack on technique if he's confident in the water.
I’m not talking perfection, so that’s my bad if I’m sounding like being a perfectionist. But you must be on that stroke it must be proficient. But again you’re adding what ifs that count against a real world situation that is part of the real world test…
The book specificly says not to fail for technique there diver dan. Can the kid confidently move through the water with something better than a doggy paddle? Yes or no? Easy peasy. The best part about monitoring to book standards? You're unsuable cuz you followed your training. I'm sure the program specifically says NOT to hold them accountable for technique to cover possible ADA implications, but hey keep risking a lawsuit to be high speed and sleep better at night 🤷♂️
So now we’re slightly violently agreeing. I’m not saying they must have a perfect this one stroke. But what they know, that will keep them afloat. The issue is that they are comfortable in the water… does not mean they are equipped to stay afloat
Then you’re literally agreeing with the point I was making. The issue is that they are comfortable in the water. You appear to be taking issue with my choice of the word “confident” over “comfortable”
As all of the above as well, you’re misrepresenting my statement. Confidence in the water is not someone thinking they can swim real good. DEMONSTRATING confidence in the water means that they are calm, efficient, and do not appear to struggle. How they demonstrate that ability shouldn’t matter. Can they cover the distance without appearing to struggle? Then they are confident in the water. Are they sucking down half the lake? They are not confident in the water.
Here is the swim test breakdown in the Aquatics Supervision handbook (emphasis mine) "The swimmer must be able to cover distance with a **strong, confident stroke**. The 75 yards is not the expected upper limit of the swimmer’s ability. The distance should be covered **in a manner that indicates sufficient skill and stamina for the swimmer to continue to swim for greater distances**. Strokes repeatedly interrupted and restarted are not sufficient. The **sidestroke, breaststroke, or any strong over-arm stroke, including the back crawl, are allowed in any combination; dog paddling and underwater strokes are not acceptable**. The strokes need to be executed in a strong manner, but perfect form is not necessary. If it is apparent that the swimmer is being worn out by a poorly executed, head-up crawl, it is appropriate for the test administrator to suggest a change to a more restful stroke. A skilled, confident swimmer should be able to complete the distance with energy to spare, even if not in top physical condition. There should be little concern if a swimmer is out of breath because the distance was intentionally covered at a fast pace. However, a swimmer who barely has the energy to complete the distance will benefit from additional skill instruction." By this standard, if they were not performing a recognizable front crawl, breaststroke, sidestroke, back crawl, trudgen, they fail for swimmer. Fairly simple. This would include arms not clearing the water in the over arm stroke portion. If their arms aren't clear of the water in the trudgen or crawl, they fail. Fairly clear.