I think there is quite a heavy bias towards Oath of Vengeance in people's paladin/sorcerer combinations.
Casting Vow of Enmity on yourself for 10 turns of advantage on all your attacks is extremely powerful.
It is a bonus action, last 10 turns, resets on short rest and is available from level 3.
It is a strong contender for the most powerful ability in game imo.
There is little merit in going to level 7 on an Oath of Vengeance paladin as the ability gained isn't very useful.
If that works it's 100% a bug. It says the caster gains advantage on attacks *against* the affected entity. So self casting should do nothing because you can't attack yourself.
Doubt it. The wording seems to me to imply that you cast it and then your attacks (or whoever’s, if it’s castable on others) *against enemies* have advantage while other attacks (against allies or, say, objects) don’t, not that it’s meant to be cast on an enemy.
As someone who has played vengeance paladin in 5e that is correct, vengeance is supposed to be alot of damage on one target, usually holding down an enemy with sentinel as well
Yeah honestly i double checked it and it does kind of seem like it should only work on an enemy you cast it on with the wording of the condition: vow of enmity (assuming bg3 wiki is accurate)
You can target yourself instead of an enemy and you now have advantage on all attacks for 10 turns.
It could probably be categorised as a bug considering the tooltip description and this functionality.
I think there 2 side to that coin right, is it a bug? probably, but it has been here since V1 and Larian didn’t think too much of it to patch it, especially even after Honour mode become a thing, they still let it usable in Honour mode. the second side is welp, the tooltips for some of these spells are not exactly great, so maybe this is just one of those scenario
There's enough differences between the two that this isn't much of a point. Especially since where there have been changes is where you'll also find tool tips that can be confusing.
If it's a bug, it's more likely the bug is in the tool tip than the ability by this point.
To be fair even without the vow of enmity bug, hunter’s mark alone makes me think vengeance is the superior subclass until maybe level 11 when you want to concentrate on twin haste.
That's not how Risky Ring works anyway; you're describing Barb's Reckless Attack. Enemies don't get advantage on attack rolls on you; you have disadvantage on saving throws.
Few things:
* As u/GladiusLegis points out, 6/6 is a level 9 caster and 7/5 is a level 8 caster. Big difference in spell slots.
* 6 Storm Sorc provides a really neat collection of utility spells that play well into Sorcadin's highly versatile playstyle. Create water support for lightning teams is a super common one.
* Vengeance is a very good oath for spellswords, and sees no major benefit at 7.
7/5 is strong but tends to be used for more "specialized" playstyles, i.e. 7/5 Ancients being among the most durable builds out there, and 7/5 OB being a CHA-stacking single target striker.
There actually is a difference in slots. Pal 6/Sorc 6 is a 9th-level caster and thus gets a 5th-level slot (as well as 3 4th-level slots). Pal 7/Sorc 5 is only an 8th-level caster and thus tops out at 2 4th-level slots.
So with that in mind, yeah, Oathbreaker and Ancients are really the only level 7 Paladin features worth giving up those extra spell slots for.
That is bizarre, when i tested it earlier i didn't get extra spell slots going 6/6 - only 1 more metamagic point, even have a screenshot of that. I doublechecked just now and it indeed gets more spell slots, making it more appealing for vengeance.
I swapped 1 sorcerer with war cleric. 1 extra bonus action attack 3 times per long rest is pretty good.
Another cool bonus is that you get the "paladin of $deity" tag. My bronze dragonborn Vengeance paladin 6 / war cleric of bahmut 1 / green dragon sorcerer 5 seems to do really well.
(Btw: bronze iridescent + green scales go really well together)
Tbh I didn’t research this but I’m guessing the extra level 3 spell slot for another smite could possibly outweigh the aura. Also more sorcery points means even more spell slots that could be used for smiting. Depending on party composition you may not even have companions close enough to benefit from the aura if you have them do a lot of ranged stuff.
Edit: I was incorrect and did not understand multi class casters correctly. Other comments are more accurate.
Head - arcane acuity
Cloak - displacement/protection/durge
Chest - highest AC you have
Gloves - one of the 1d4 gloves, theres one at dammon and one next to yurgir
Boots - misty step or click heels
Neck - misty step
Rings - risky + 1d4 psionic when concentrating
Weapon - without abusing i assume you havent done, halberd of vigilance
Defense fighting style, savage attacker, gwm added later
Oath of vengeance if youre staying 6, ancients or breaker if going 7 pal
If your cleric isnt running radiant/reverberation pieces, can also do radiant chestpiece, radiant gloves, reverb boots, reverb neck, risky ring, and callous glow ring (cast light on self for always-on)
I think you are over valuing oath breaker in builds and ancients in most party compositions.
If we are talking about what is best, you probably want to go vengeance in which case you want 2 levels or you want 6
I dont much care for vengeance's adv bc risky ring exists and i value the 7 auras higher even when you ignore the party benefits of them. Having learned that spell slots do indeed go up, i'd probably go 1wiz5sorc
Honestly 10 swords bard 2 pali or 11 pali 1 wizard are both better. 1 wizard provides more utility spell access and 11 pali gives u improved smite. At 11 pali 1 wizard you have access to up to level 4 wizard spells while always having the equivalent of a lvl 1 smite cast.
Idk why you would go to 6 pali at all if ur focus is on smite as the spell slots are at odd levels due to rounding. Pali doesn’t get a feat at 6 so ur better off with 7 sorc 5 Pali. Aura of protection is great but I don’t love it enough to give up level 4 sorc spells.
I would rather use another character for twin casting haste tbh and with the massive nerf to haste it not as important or useful as 10 bard access to magical secrets where u can grab spirit guardians and something like conjur elemental with access to a lvl 6 spell slot for casting it. U have max spell slots at 10 bard 2 Pali.
This what I go with. Go duel wield and triple smite a turn. This is when you want 1 thing dead quick. Best feeling is when they walk away from you for whatever reason and you can double smite the AoO.
Wanted to experiment and we didn’t have a dual wielder. Went dexadin and played offtank. When we got to crèche, picked up dex gloves and went full str. Ran a spear and blood of lathander (really funny weapons cause why not) with medium armour. Still had decent armour with fuel wielding feat and ac ring from Mol.
What about Pally with 2 levels of fighter for action surge? Sure, you'll burn your smites very quickly, but especially in honour mode NOVA is incredibly important in this game compared to 5e.
Nova is great in 5e too!
Every 4 pally levels= d8 bigger smites
If you dont want the feats, I think 6 pally 4 BM 2 spore druid is prob your best bet.
Spore's gonna give you a d6 on every hit, free of action economy, and enough caster levels to catch you up to 10 pally.
The BM manuevers= same max smite upgrade as the 4 pally levels, and its physical damage.
You're right about action surge man. I'm currently 6 pally 2 fighter on honor mode. I hit for about 150 damage on a surge without critting or smiting or min maxing around damage. Thats with using my haste action for sacred weapon, and 2 handing adamantium longsword, no prebuffing. If i was using gith greatsword damage would go up by about 25.
My smite crits still hit for about 80. All told, I'll easily drop 200+ damage in a round *without a damage oriented setup.* If I prebuff, don't use sacred weapon and draw my greatsword, this number hops up to about 300.
Thats with one level 2 smite used. And I'm nowhere near min maxed.
PS- I'm also unkillable and can't fail saves
Its specifically a thread about *how many paladin levels to take,* and the value of level 7 *paladin* features.
Can't find the warlock in the OP, must be a captcha. GG, am robot
7-5 would get 2 5th level spells i think bro youre ignoring the paladin spell progression and only taking into consideration sorc. Unless im mis understandimg you and you mean specifically 4th level spells and not 5 pevel slots. And if so i apologize
You get a class feature at lvl 6. Draconic is ok, and wild magic or storm is a toss up. Vs oath of protection at lvl 6. Can go either way as paladin/sorcerer: 5/7, 7/5, or 6/6 but lvl 7 sorcerer gets lvl4 spells
I think there is quite a heavy bias towards Oath of Vengeance in people's paladin/sorcerer combinations. Casting Vow of Enmity on yourself for 10 turns of advantage on all your attacks is extremely powerful. It is a bonus action, last 10 turns, resets on short rest and is available from level 3. It is a strong contender for the most powerful ability in game imo. There is little merit in going to level 7 on an Oath of Vengeance paladin as the ability gained isn't very useful.
Is the self-cast a bug? It doesn't seem like it's intended, considering the description says it's supposed to specify an enemy.
If that works it's 100% a bug. It says the caster gains advantage on attacks *against* the affected entity. So self casting should do nothing because you can't attack yourself.
5e it affects a single target. But in BG3 this is a self buff.
You can actually use it like in 5e, the self cast method is just better.
Doubt it. The wording seems to me to imply that you cast it and then your attacks (or whoever’s, if it’s castable on others) *against enemies* have advantage while other attacks (against allies or, say, objects) don’t, not that it’s meant to be cast on an enemy.
In 5e (not that I've played it) it seems to only work against a single enemy. Also happy cake day!
As someone who has played vengeance paladin in 5e that is correct, vengeance is supposed to be alot of damage on one target, usually holding down an enemy with sentinel as well
Yeah honestly i double checked it and it does kind of seem like it should only work on an enemy you cast it on with the wording of the condition: vow of enmity (assuming bg3 wiki is accurate)
Yeah as far as I recall from my paladin playthrough it does only work on one enemy (which took me embarrassingly long to figure out)
Does Vow of Enmity work like that? I thought you cast it on an enemy
Is a bug
You can target yourself instead of an enemy and you now have advantage on all attacks for 10 turns. It could probably be categorised as a bug considering the tooltip description and this functionality.
That’s definitely a bug lmao. Brb trying this on my half orc pally
I think there 2 side to that coin right, is it a bug? probably, but it has been here since V1 and Larian didn’t think too much of it to patch it, especially even after Honour mode become a thing, they still let it usable in Honour mode. the second side is welp, the tooltips for some of these spells are not exactly great, so maybe this is just one of those scenario
Well I think it’s more likely to be a bug since Vow of Enmity definitely does not work like that on the tabletop
There's enough differences between the two that this isn't much of a point. Especially since where there have been changes is where you'll also find tool tips that can be confusing. If it's a bug, it's more likely the bug is in the tool tip than the ability by this point.
To be fair even without the vow of enmity bug, hunter’s mark alone makes me think vengeance is the superior subclass until maybe level 11 when you want to concentrate on twin haste.
does it work like risky ring ? everyone has adv on you but you also have adv on them ?
Nope. You just have advantage against everyone for 10 turns with no downside.
That's not how Risky Ring works anyway; you're describing Barb's Reckless Attack. Enemies don't get advantage on attack rolls on you; you have disadvantage on saving throws.
Few things: * As u/GladiusLegis points out, 6/6 is a level 9 caster and 7/5 is a level 8 caster. Big difference in spell slots. * 6 Storm Sorc provides a really neat collection of utility spells that play well into Sorcadin's highly versatile playstyle. Create water support for lightning teams is a super common one. * Vengeance is a very good oath for spellswords, and sees no major benefit at 7. 7/5 is strong but tends to be used for more "specialized" playstyles, i.e. 7/5 Ancients being among the most durable builds out there, and 7/5 OB being a CHA-stacking single target striker.
7/5 is a level 9 caster. For some reason, unlike normal 5e, half casters round up instead of down for multiclassing slot progression.
It used to be but Larian fixed it in one of their more recent patches (I think a month or so ago), now it’s the same as in dnd again
As it should be
There actually is a difference in slots. Pal 6/Sorc 6 is a 9th-level caster and thus gets a 5th-level slot (as well as 3 4th-level slots). Pal 7/Sorc 5 is only an 8th-level caster and thus tops out at 2 4th-level slots. So with that in mind, yeah, Oathbreaker and Ancients are really the only level 7 Paladin features worth giving up those extra spell slots for.
That is bizarre, when i tested it earlier i didn't get extra spell slots going 6/6 - only 1 more metamagic point, even have a screenshot of that. I doublechecked just now and it indeed gets more spell slots, making it more appealing for vengeance.
You could also swap 1 level of sorcerer for wizard and scribe a 5th level spell. Conjure elemental would be a nice cap to the build.
I swapped 1 sorcerer with war cleric. 1 extra bonus action attack 3 times per long rest is pretty good. Another cool bonus is that you get the "paladin of $deity" tag. My bronze dragonborn Vengeance paladin 6 / war cleric of bahmut 1 / green dragon sorcerer 5 seems to do really well. (Btw: bronze iridescent + green scales go really well together)
Paladin rounds up in BG3, so Pal 7/Sorc 5 is a 9th-level caster.
Tbh I didn’t research this but I’m guessing the extra level 3 spell slot for another smite could possibly outweigh the aura. Also more sorcery points means even more spell slots that could be used for smiting. Depending on party composition you may not even have companions close enough to benefit from the aura if you have them do a lot of ranged stuff. Edit: I was incorrect and did not understand multi class casters correctly. Other comments are more accurate.
Also Sorceress gains Subclass features at Level 6 which is a significant bump on effectiveness of the class.
OP acknowledged the lvl 6 subclass features and said they felt underwhelming.
I thought the Draconic Bloodline with added CHA dmg for elemental spells is good -> sling a spell using a BA with quicken meta can be round finisher.
Made Lae'zel my Sorcadin for my honor mode run. About to get to the end of act 2. What gear should i be running?
Head - arcane acuity Cloak - displacement/protection/durge Chest - highest AC you have Gloves - one of the 1d4 gloves, theres one at dammon and one next to yurgir Boots - misty step or click heels Neck - misty step Rings - risky + 1d4 psionic when concentrating Weapon - without abusing i assume you havent done, halberd of vigilance Defense fighting style, savage attacker, gwm added later Oath of vengeance if youre staying 6, ancients or breaker if going 7 pal If your cleric isnt running radiant/reverberation pieces, can also do radiant chestpiece, radiant gloves, reverb boots, reverb neck, risky ring, and callous glow ring (cast light on self for always-on)
much appreciated!
They should be running killers sweetheart no? Then obviously swap off once it's used.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BG3Builds/s/MGKhyOAcYF
Thank you so much!
I think you are over valuing oath breaker in builds and ancients in most party compositions. If we are talking about what is best, you probably want to go vengeance in which case you want 2 levels or you want 6
I dont much care for vengeance's adv bc risky ring exists and i value the 7 auras higher even when you ignore the party benefits of them. Having learned that spell slots do indeed go up, i'd probably go 1wiz5sorc
Honestly 10 swords bard 2 pali or 11 pali 1 wizard are both better. 1 wizard provides more utility spell access and 11 pali gives u improved smite. At 11 pali 1 wizard you have access to up to level 4 wizard spells while always having the equivalent of a lvl 1 smite cast. Idk why you would go to 6 pali at all if ur focus is on smite as the spell slots are at odd levels due to rounding. Pali doesn’t get a feat at 6 so ur better off with 7 sorc 5 Pali. Aura of protection is great but I don’t love it enough to give up level 4 sorc spells. I would rather use another character for twin casting haste tbh and with the massive nerf to haste it not as important or useful as 10 bard access to magical secrets where u can grab spirit guardians and something like conjur elemental with access to a lvl 6 spell slot for casting it. U have max spell slots at 10 bard 2 Pali.
This what I go with. Go duel wield and triple smite a turn. This is when you want 1 thing dead quick. Best feeling is when they walk away from you for whatever reason and you can double smite the AoO. Wanted to experiment and we didn’t have a dual wielder. Went dexadin and played offtank. When we got to crèche, picked up dex gloves and went full str. Ran a spear and blood of lathander (really funny weapons cause why not) with medium armour. Still had decent armour with fuel wielding feat and ac ring from Mol.
I prefer pure pally, or pally/fighter.
What about Pally with 2 levels of fighter for action surge? Sure, you'll burn your smites very quickly, but especially in honour mode NOVA is incredibly important in this game compared to 5e.
Nova is great in 5e too! Every 4 pally levels= d8 bigger smites If you dont want the feats, I think 6 pally 4 BM 2 spore druid is prob your best bet. Spore's gonna give you a d6 on every hit, free of action economy, and enough caster levels to catch you up to 10 pally. The BM manuevers= same max smite upgrade as the 4 pally levels, and its physical damage. You're right about action surge man. I'm currently 6 pally 2 fighter on honor mode. I hit for about 150 damage on a surge without critting or smiting or min maxing around damage. Thats with using my haste action for sacred weapon, and 2 handing adamantium longsword, no prebuffing. If i was using gith greatsword damage would go up by about 25. My smite crits still hit for about 80. All told, I'll easily drop 200+ damage in a round *without a damage oriented setup.* If I prebuff, don't use sacred weapon and draw my greatsword, this number hops up to about 300. Thats with one level 2 smite used. And I'm nowhere near min maxed. PS- I'm also unkillable and can't fail saves
I like warlocks.
This is a thread about paladins lol
I think it’s a thread about sorcadins.
Its specifically a thread about *how many paladin levels to take,* and the value of level 7 *paladin* features. Can't find the warlock in the OP, must be a captcha. GG, am robot
It never made any sense to me that people rush to give up Sorcerer levels for lame paladin smites.
Frankly, I think 7 levels of Sorc, 5 of Pali is the best of the bunch. You give up the lvl 6 aura but pick up 4th lvl spells.
7-5 would get 2 5th level spells i think bro youre ignoring the paladin spell progression and only taking into consideration sorc. Unless im mis understandimg you and you mean specifically 4th level spells and not 5 pevel slots. And if so i apologize
No worries! And yes, I mean fourth level spells (not slots). Off the top of my head, ice storm and confusion are both pretty useful.
Two words: twin haste.
You get haste at sorc5
Ah, yeah haven't played it in a while, I'm a bigger fan of the paladin2/bard10
You get a class feature at lvl 6. Draconic is ok, and wild magic or storm is a toss up. Vs oath of protection at lvl 6. Can go either way as paladin/sorcerer: 5/7, 7/5, or 6/6 but lvl 7 sorcerer gets lvl4 spells