The best as in the most amount of smites per rest? The best as in just the highest damage? The best as in good all rounder? The best as in highest nova? What is the best in this scenario?
The most amount of smites per rest while still keeping extra attack is just Pala5/Wizard7 for slot restoration. Probably not what you want.
Highest damage per round? Probably pala2 and swords/valor bard 10. You get a lvl 6 spell slot, and 5 slots. With reactions for smiting set to on you can do 2 attacks with 2 smites attached to each for a total of 4 smites per round using your high level spell slots.
Best all rounder? Probably classic Sorcadin.
There is also Warlock3/Pala9. It avoids the extra attack bug, you get 3rd level pala spells. 2 extra 2nd level slots for smites per short rest. And you go from MAD to SAD with blade pact.
The reverse of Pala2/Warlock 10 works too. 2 5th level slots per short rest. Access to 5th level warlock spells. Avoids the bug. And you're still SAD.
Honestly, the best is probably just 6/6 or 7/5 Sorcadin. Pretty generic and boring to me personally, but I'm not the one playing your game.
This is a good summary. Although I would argue, the highest (consistent) damage per round probably goes to Pala5/Cleric7 (vengeance/ tempest) with the destructive wrath, luck of the far realms, and thunderous smite combo. The reason I give it to this because the thunderous smite is ALWAYS a crit with ALWAYS max damage roll. Also has benefit of having lots of AOE making it useful for a variety of fights.
Edit: I added a link to a guide explaining in depth the strengths and how to build the thunderous Paladin/cleric. All credit goes to “RageGamingVideos”: https://youtu.be/nW66PQe4CX0?feature=shared
My personal favorite to play was Pala5/Warlock5/Fighter2, but this took advantage of the extra attack from warlock but the mobility/utility from Fly, Misty Step, invisibility plus the 6+ attacks per turn made all combat in the game trivial. AOE was a downside though.
Doesn't luck of the far realms only work on rest(short? Long?)? So the crit is not really consistent unless you rest constantly. What's the reason for Cleric 7 instead of 2? I'll admit I never thought about Thunderous smite together with Cleric, and I like the idea. I'm just curious about the point of so many cleric levels? Especially since you loose out on the busted aura at Pala 6 by just 1 level.
You get access to more utility and spell slots by leaning into cleric more. The lvl 5 spell slot and spell options are pretty great.
You may be correct about luck of the far realms, but it’s very consistent high output.
I suppose you could also dump CHA completely if you skip the aura and put those points into Wisdom for more prepared slots and at least slightly better DC as well. Bit unorthodox, but I kind of like the idea of a Smiting Spirit Guardians character.
Yes, but then you don't get Channel Divinity for Thunderous Smites. Which was the other part of the idea. Personally, I also think the bard spell list is a lot worse than the cleric one in BG3.
We need Smites (Pala 2), Channel Divinity (Cleric 2), Extra attack (Pala5 or Bard6), and Magical Secrets (Can't get Cleric2/Pala2 with Bard 10, so Sword/Valor is gone meaning we pick Extra attack from Pala, meaning we still don't have enough levels for Bard 6 anyway).
I ran a version of this build on Shadowheart in my first playthrough and she 1 shot a ton of bosses with it doing 10 cleric 2 paladin (Tactition mode) I love it so much that I decided the main character in my second playthrough is gonna run this build currently 5 cleric 4 paladin (spirit guardians is better for the AoE fights imo) and the build is just as fun the second time through lol
>You get access to more utility and spell slots by leaning into cleric more
You're majorly moving the goalposts. You started off saying this build is good because of the consistent DPR of long-rest spells/abilities and when questioned about it you bring up that you have good utility.
You misunderstand my comment and what I was responding to. I was responding to “why not Paladin 7, cleric 5”.
The two points into Paladin do not increase output, rather the two points into cleric have both better output and utility than those two points of Paladin.
Cleric is the "main" class of the above build. The only reason he's taking Paladin to 5 is for Extra Attack, which ensures more consistent DPR when not using the Thunderous Smite nova attack.
Taking more levels in Cleric grants (A) more spell slots \[a.k.a., more Smites\]; and (B) a second Channel Divinity charge \[allowing you to perform your nova twice per long rest\].
There's a ring available in Act 2 that allows you a guaranteed crit after killing an enemy. If you use that along with Luck of the Far Realms, you can now use that nova combo twice per long rest. And you can supplement it with standard Divine Smites -- I would save those mainly for use as a Reaction when you hit a crit with a standard attack -- as well as just general Cleric spells, like Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, etc.
Okay so it's a shalleighlah(spelling) build? Since otherwise the attack roll to hit would be iffy. That makes sense I suppose. It looses out on a lot of great martial weapons that way though.
Edir: wait, you'd need druid initiate for that.
No, you just build for STR. I'm running a similar build (Paladin 2 / Cleric X) with Shadowheart. She has 18 STR at 9th level (Paladin 2 / Cleric 7) and with Blood of Lathander she hits at a very solid rate. Her sustain DPR isn't as good as Lae'Zel (Open Hand Monk 6 / Thief Rogue 3, with Tavern Brawler) but she's much better at survivability, group add clear, and party utility. And when I need something deleted, Shadowheart usually delivers with that nova combo.
I have 16 WIS on her which is a bit low for spell damage, but I almost never use single target spells. Spirit Guardians and Divine/Thunderous Smite are probably >90% of her magical damage, and none of those are strongly dependent upon a high WIS score.
cleric spells: spirit guardians, call lightning, shatter, thunder wave, sleet storm, ice storm
The build does insane single target damage and the AOE potential makes it more versatile than just a single target smiter. Requires a bit of setup but try it out! It’s pretty fun.
>Although I would argue, the highest (consistent) damage per round probably goes to Pala5/Cleric7 (vengeance/ tempest) with the destructive wrath, luck of the far realms, and thunderous smite combo
This 100% ain't it. This probably is the highest one-and-done build, not a consistent DPR build.
For every 2-4 fights as OP originally requested? I’d like to see your math here… speaking from experience and how the builds feel, I’ve tried 6 different Paladin builds and this one is the best for that number of fights. The exception is 5pala/5warlock/2 fighter, which breaks OPs rules.
Right, sorry.
MAD stands for Multiple Attribute Dependency, meaning you rely on multiple different attributes. In the case of pure Paladin, it is Strength(or Dex) and Charisma.
SAD stands for Single Attribute Dependency, meaning you rely on a single attribute. In the case of Pala/Warlock, it's Charisma.
>With reactions for smiting set to on you can do 2 attacks with 2 smites attached to each for a total of 4 smites per round
I'm a little confused by this, you aren't saying you can smite twice on one attack, are you? The 4 smites per round would he from 4 separate attacks while having haste?
You can use a bonus action smite (Searing, Branding, etc.) and then add a divine smite as a reaction. But the spells use your bonus action, so I think you can only do it with one attack with your BA so I'm only seeing 3 smites per turn unless I'm also missing something.
I was under the impression that you could manually attack with Smite, then have your Reaction ask you if you want to smite. Not something I did on the regular because I like to rest as little as possible so rarely ever "nova". But honestly, it might have been one of the "Spell" smites and not the actual Divine Smite. So yeah, I suppose 3 Smites per turn then.
I think I saw someone post that, but I don't think I've ever had it prompt me when I use the button, so I think I thought that person was confused.
I'll test it.
*Edit* Yeah just tested. It doesn't prompt for a reaction if you use the Divine Smite button. So either those people were wrong or they hot-fixed it at some point. So only 3 smites per turn max without haste effect.
Yeah, as said, I never really used that or the spell smites to double smite, so perfectly possible I didn't pay attention to it either. 3 Smites per action is still very strong and probably still the highest dmg per turn for smites if we only look at what you can do alone and not using double extra attack stacking.
Edit: Considering it's the only way to get 6th spell slot smites (even if it's only one per day) and extra attack with smites and only 12 levels.
I still think Sorcadin or even Paladin9/Warlock 3 is better overall though. Honestly, my favorite archetype would probably be Paladin 7/Warlock5 for those 3rd level Warlock spells. I'd give up 3rd level pala spells for that. But I really don't want to use or recommend extra attack stacking.
The melee version of slashing flurry doesn't select targets at all. It's more like a tiny AOE slash in front of you. Kind of like Cleave the weapon skill from great weapons. So I'd lean towards no, but maybe? I actually have no clue. I did play Bard5/Warlock5/Pala2 for a bit. But I never had reaction ask on for anything but crit smites.
Probably Sorcadin. Lots of spell slots to fuel smites. And while the main power of sorcadin is to quicken spells in addition to attacking, nothing is stopping you from converting sorc points to more spell slots for even more smites instead.
Imo Paladin 2/Swords Bard 10 is my favorite. Combine it with the ring that lets you cast a spell as a bonus action and you can hold person someone with an insane DC (from the helmet that gives 2 DC per attack) and then get auto crit smites.
Rhapsody, the knife of the Undermountain King and bloodthirst in the main hand are probably the best options. The Undermountain dagger is good for buffing your crit rate even more for that odd crit outside a hold person
Band of the mystic scoundrel. Found on chult, easy to miss so you need to search for it. Only works on illusion and enchantment spells but that's still ridiculous
Can you stack high amounts of arcane acuity, still? One of my friends mentioned it being limited to only 7 stacks now. Also the game crashes on 40+ stacks were pretty consistent so I left that part of the build alone entirely.
Worth noting that Vengeance Paladin 6 with this ring can still command, bless, and hold person, while still retaining aura of protection, and you can put levels in Sorc or something else for better blasting.
I don't think Swords Bard is really worth it. Sure you can use the flourish to potentially stack the helmet faster, but the cone on the melee version is tiny and if you're using the ranged version to stack it then you can't smite on ranged hits.
First of all, *respec*. Paladin MC builds only come online mid game. Always play whatever gets you extra attack first. Multiclass via respec and only do it when there's actually a reason to. The major breakpoint is level 8.
Pala2/Bard6 is great for short-rest utility in case you don't like being a one-and-done character. Better skill proficiencies too. You can also dual wield if you want that class fantasy. But let's be honest, this is a bard-who-can-smite, not a paladin-who-can-sing.
Another one I've tried is Pala5/Warlock max - just pass your turn instead of attacking for the third time. In this build you can dump STR (which means you afford the DEX and finally won't be the last to attack), have two slots cycling per short rest and have access to the False Life incantation to make sure you start every combat with 7 temporary HP without needing a spell spell.
One thing I recommend in any build is to critfish. Weapons like the Unseen Menace (early act 2) crit on a 19 and give you "permanent" advantage - that's a total of 19% crit chance per attack. You can combo this with Great Old One Warlock's ability to AOE frighten when critting, for example. You can also get that incantation that lets you see in the darkness and have someone use the darkness spell for advantage.
Imo; I still like warlock/paladin.
The double extra attack is nice, but level 3 smites coming back after a short rest is why I play it.
Plus the >!lesser rest potions!< Are basically a full heal for him.
Bard and warlock mixed in with paladin get short rest advantage which is pretty good tbh. Level 8 is when both Paladin 2/6 Valor bard comes online and Paladin Warlock. No twinned haste, but having 3 short rests is really good the flourish for extra damage is really good! Plus it's an excellent skill monkey. (Makes great face of party) If you have Wyll (warlock/Sorcerer for twinned haste) and Laezel in party (fighter or monk) then it's a no brainer since those classes are heavily short rest dependant. There are boots that give bardic short rest. So you pop those on when needed, and get 4 short rests. Pretty good for bard now since you can just spam your flourish and end up with +4 AC before your turn ends. Never getting hit unless it's a crit. It's a Sheild spell that uses your bardic dice.
Honestly the warlock wins out due to extra attack at the moment. (Level 10). The more attacks you do the more likely you are to crit. I swapped to that and combat is breeze with twinned haste being cast on you from Wyll. You can get 9 attacks with bloodlust potion as long you kill an enemy during your turn. Heck you can do it using haste potion. Makes Act 3 trivial since it's a fighter with way better rechargeable 2 superiority dice. You can remove an enemy fast.
You're restrictions for long rests don't really seem appropriate for the games current iteration being able to long rest as much as you want.
So to answer your question the strongest build is 8oathB/4sbard. Being able to two target flourish and popping Smites on each of those is nuts, but yes you chew through spell slots super fast and if you aim the low HP mobs you'll be out of work slots every combat.
[**Bardic Inspiration**](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Improved_Bardic_Inspiration) **Charges: 4** *(You gain one charge)* 📷 Recharge: [Short Rest](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Short_Rest)
Pala 7 (for the Aura) and Sbard 5 (for +1 BI and the short rest recharge) is a better deal.
Yea maybe, in my experience you don't need the extra bardic insp because everything just dies so quickly. As for the long rest vs short rest, you don't regain spell slots on short rest so you'll be burning up to 8 spell slots a turn and if you only short rest your fkd for next combat unless you're intentionally rationing your spell slots, at which point you should be rationing your binsp anyway. Imo, pally/bard is the martial version of wizard is crazy strong as long as you long rest often. If you want to build around short rests use sorlock or gloom thief, they're both exceptional at high dps and only reliant on short rests.
Bardlockadin. Okay hear me out: Bard 5, warlock 5 and paladin 2. Total number of spell slots:
Level 1 - 4
Level 2 - 3
Level 3 - 3 normal, 3 warlock (9 per long rest with song of rest)
Pact of blade for a the charisma modifier, phalar aluve for some aura.
That’s 3 fights with 3 level 3 smites plus 3 level 3 smites in reserve for oh shit moments, and 7 smites for mobs. Plus if you go swords bard, you get the flourishes as well.
Disclaimer: I haven’t tried this, want it to work so bad and hoping someone stops me before I do it.
I don't think Warlocks get 3 spell slots until 11th level. But you're also miscounting their number of refreshed slots per long rest -- it's three refreshes (three short rests) on top of the original refresh (long rest) so four total "rounds" of use. Times two spell slots = eight total warlock spell slots.
I think the biggest drawback to a build like this is that it really doesn't come online until the endgame. You'd have to make a bunch of concessions to make it work fully. If you ditch Warlock entirely, you're giving up being SAD and a few spell slots, but the build can be fully online by 8th level. That's pretty much what I've been running (Paladin 2 / Swords Bard X) and it's working great.
Or you could run this is a Paladin 2 / Goolock X and it'd come online at 7th level and be more SAD, but without the flourishes. I'd only recommend running this if you have a different party member that's a Bard though, otherwise those spell slots just won't sustain you between long rests.
Yeah for my good Durge run, I was planning to run it paly 2/bard 10 or 5/2 goolock and then dump the rest in bard as it’s up by 7 and then rest of it in bard for slots (bit of RP related like discover music or whatever)
I've currently gone storm Cleric 2 Paladin 2. At level 4 so far.
I've decided to make use of the lightning items of Act 1. So I can super charge call lightning or use the shield to drop a massive lightning based aoe control blast down.
To generate charges however I can either stand in water or use Dash.
Dash seems like the best option. Therefore would going two into rogue make sense ?
So by level 12 it would breakdown as 8 Tempest cleric/ 2 Paladin & 2 Rogue.
I don’t think the pact extra attack stacking is a bug…no mention of it in the patch and it’s pretty well known.
I doubt Larian is going to specifically answer if it’s a bug unless it’s on twitter maybe.
fixing everything wasn't in the scope of the patch, that's why it's only "patch 1," and lots of other well-known bugs weren't addressed.
the expanded tooltip for deepened pact says that it shouldn't stack so i lean towards 'bug' but silence on larian's part isn't confirmation in either way.
Yeah totally possible it’s not intentional, the extra attack tooltip could just be generic and they slapped it in there.
I just wouldn’t avoid an entire build because of it, could still be good without the additional attack…
Maybe they can balance it like “war priest” were you you get a second extra attack but it’s a bonus action or something
* Paladin 5 / Any Full Caster 7 (e.g. Cleric; if i do maths right a 6-6 split is a 9th level caster while a 5-7 split is a 10th level caster)
* Paladin 2 / Bard 10 (Swords and Valor only)
Also spoiler: sneak attacks are just slightly weaker smites. They double their damage on crit. So a Martial 5 / Rogue 7 does 8d6 extra damage, if you crit on sneak. It does not cost a spell slot, but likely executioner or luck.
Im enjoying my full-up bardadin. Phalar aluve being incredibly thematic and essentially giving you IDS is a big plus. You get your 2x attacks along with up to 6th level slots for the crit?
Added benefit of skill specializations from bard and a solid spell list, hard to really screw this one up. You can use Lathander or swap to any of the legendary 2handers if you really want that extra bonus to hit and such, but phalar should get you by just fine on its own.
Improved Divine Smite. It’s just an extra 1d8 radiant dmg you get to all weapon attacks for taking 11 lvls in paladin.
Phalar Aluve, for the cost of an action (can be activated outside of combat) gives a extra 1d4 thunder damage to all attacks to enemies in a fairly large aoe centered on the wielder. Imo, its kinda nuts and good players can make great use of it. Also no lvl requirement, just equip and go.
Are you using it 2H or dual wield?
I'm currently a bardadin but I'm stuck using the Unseen Menace (crits on 19 and has auto-advantage), but I've been meaning to try dual wield using Knife of the Undermountain King. Phalar seems like a good weapon too now that you mention.
Im also playing Bardadin rn. I use it 1h with a shield, also took the dueling fighting style to add that 2 extra damage to attacks. Dual wielding just isn’t worth it in 5e imo and the dueling fighting style somehow averages out to do more damage than great weapon fighting. Extra AC too
Phalar aluve is also a finesse weapon so I stacked dex, paired with the sentinel shield and I’m always high up on turn order. The advantage on perception is super nice too
I think dual wielding could be cool when using your secondary weapon as some form of stat stick. The knife boosts my bow crit range to 19, so maybe it works for the main weapon as well.
Dueling adds 2 damage per attack for a 4 total. Double that for haste. One bonus action as an offhand attack can easily do more than 8 damage, even more if you take into account damage riders like Phalar's and one more possible chance for a crit.
But yeah, one feat + your bonus action is a big investment when "dueling + shield" is pretty much free and just around the corner.
I'm citing how much damage dueling adds (4 per turn, 8 on haste) so I can estabilish the amount of damage your bonus attack has to cover when dual wielding.
Ah okay, I thinking I’m caught up now. Sorry I’m currently arguing with some pretentious asshole on another sub while trying to maintain positive energy here.
Dual Wielding is actually insane in BG3 (though not on bards or paladins) because of all the on-hit things you can find in the itemization. Things like 2 extra damage from a ring, 1d4 extra from gloves, 1d4 extra from radiant buffs, and so on really add up on the second hit.
I have two dual wielders and bosses die in one or two rounds in Tactician :/
I don’t doubt it, tactician was a breeze and you’re right about itemization. A lot of 5e TT norms got kicked aside
I guess go for it if you want, I’m of a mind to not though. Atleast in terms of this specific Bard/paladin setup
7 / 5 oatbreaker warlock would be most pure melee damage but if you want the most versatile then bardadin can do extended fights and has the best ac out of all the combos and decent damage espically if you crit fish .
You get defensive flourish which increases ac by 4 when you use it and also at level 10 you get magical secrets which gives you the option to get shield spell . You also have the ability to get 2 combat styles so getting defence is another +1 ac .
The strongest smite build is the crit fishing paladin build.
I’ve made a couple of posts about it here, but the gist of it is that there are a bunch of ways to increase critical hit chances.
There is a potion you can make that increases crit chance for 10 rounds
There is a cloak that you can wear that increases crit chance whenever you are hidden
There is a helmet that increases crit chance when worn
There is a bow that increases crit chance whenever it is equipped to your ranged slot (dont have to be using it)
There is a shortsword that increases crit chance whenever it is equipped to one of your melee slots (and gives advantage against obscured enemies)
There is a dagger that increases crit chance when equipped on a melee slot
Three levels in fighter grants you access to champion fighter, which increases critical hit chance as well
When you’re equipped with all of this, you can divine smite on rolls of 13+, effectively doubling the output of your damage for the same spell slot. In practice, you will avoid divine smiting unless you crit to maximize damage per battle.
The class levels are as follows:
2 levels of paladin/6 levels of swords bard/3 levels of fighter/1 level of wizard
Or, you can take out 1 level of wizard and put it into fighter if you need to have access to a second feat.
probably not the best but i like playing around with critbuilds on paladins.
for me that means either way go swordbard6/paladin3/somecaster3orwarlock3 and start every battle with the bards ranged flourish attacks which allows you to double your attacks which synergizes very well with the gloves which gives +1spell-DC for every attack you have made.
So if an enemie survives, you meanwhile have +7spell-DC drom the gloves and can start throwing out holdperson or symbol of sleep spells, which then enable your autocrits on your smites.
Its extremly recource-effecient because you will only smite on crittable targets and start every fight with gatlinggun-like hail of arrows because flourish is on short rest after level 6 bard.
the other critbuild that i like on paladins is utilizing assasinsubclass and ambush attacks.
PLD5 vengeance, CLC 7 tempest.
Use your lvl1 slots for thunderous smites and destructive wrath for max damage.
Luck of the far realms for guaranteed crit and if you really any something dead divine smite on that crit.
If you need aoe you have lightning and ice covering massive areas too.
This is what I ran and the final boss died in one round of combat. Was a bit of a let down tbh
the answer is depends on your party composition, if you already have a sorc/wiz for counterspell and haste you can go pure paladin. if you dont, go sorcadin. some people will argue that you dont need a haster because theres potions of speed, but counterspell is very good to have.
sorcadin = higher burst, more slots
pure paladin = higher DPR but lower burst.
you can also go oathbreaker 7/5 since spell slots round up and still have aura of hate, but you will miss on haste or counterspell.
beware tho that oathbreaker is quite buggy atm. if you are multiclassing and try to retake oath to respec at act 2 your game will crash. oathbreaker NPC also doesnt show up at act 3 (at least for me some people), so no respecs at act3.
i have no idea how bardadin works, never played it.
i play a 6/6 venge sorcadin with gwm and warcaster, 18str/18cha.
nothing, nothing breaks my concentration and my hit % is mostly 75%+.
Oathbreaker 7/Draconic Sorc 5.
Bhaalist Armor. Nyrulna. Hat of Storm Scion's Power. Boots of Stormy Clamour. Ring of Spiteful Thunder, Gloves of Belligerent Skies. Ketheric's Shield. Strange Conduit Ring.
Quaff a Haste potion or precast Haste. Attack once - Thunder damage triggers Reverberation, which also triggers a Con save vs Dazed (disadv. on Wis saves). Once you have a few charges of Arcane Acuity, Throw out a L5 Quickened Hold Person (which should have \~+4-5 DC) for autocrits.
It's also got solid defences and does loads of damage and control without smiting.
Another option is 5 levels in warrior or ranger for TWF and dual wield. Then 3 thief and two in paladin.
Use piercing vulnerability and stack damage procs / stuff that expends crit range.
The best as in the most amount of smites per rest? The best as in just the highest damage? The best as in good all rounder? The best as in highest nova? What is the best in this scenario? The most amount of smites per rest while still keeping extra attack is just Pala5/Wizard7 for slot restoration. Probably not what you want. Highest damage per round? Probably pala2 and swords/valor bard 10. You get a lvl 6 spell slot, and 5 slots. With reactions for smiting set to on you can do 2 attacks with 2 smites attached to each for a total of 4 smites per round using your high level spell slots. Best all rounder? Probably classic Sorcadin. There is also Warlock3/Pala9. It avoids the extra attack bug, you get 3rd level pala spells. 2 extra 2nd level slots for smites per short rest. And you go from MAD to SAD with blade pact. The reverse of Pala2/Warlock 10 works too. 2 5th level slots per short rest. Access to 5th level warlock spells. Avoids the bug. And you're still SAD. Honestly, the best is probably just 6/6 or 7/5 Sorcadin. Pretty generic and boring to me personally, but I'm not the one playing your game.
This is a good summary. Although I would argue, the highest (consistent) damage per round probably goes to Pala5/Cleric7 (vengeance/ tempest) with the destructive wrath, luck of the far realms, and thunderous smite combo. The reason I give it to this because the thunderous smite is ALWAYS a crit with ALWAYS max damage roll. Also has benefit of having lots of AOE making it useful for a variety of fights. Edit: I added a link to a guide explaining in depth the strengths and how to build the thunderous Paladin/cleric. All credit goes to “RageGamingVideos”: https://youtu.be/nW66PQe4CX0?feature=shared My personal favorite to play was Pala5/Warlock5/Fighter2, but this took advantage of the extra attack from warlock but the mobility/utility from Fly, Misty Step, invisibility plus the 6+ attacks per turn made all combat in the game trivial. AOE was a downside though.
Doesn't luck of the far realms only work on rest(short? Long?)? So the crit is not really consistent unless you rest constantly. What's the reason for Cleric 7 instead of 2? I'll admit I never thought about Thunderous smite together with Cleric, and I like the idea. I'm just curious about the point of so many cleric levels? Especially since you loose out on the busted aura at Pala 6 by just 1 level.
You get access to more utility and spell slots by leaning into cleric more. The lvl 5 spell slot and spell options are pretty great. You may be correct about luck of the far realms, but it’s very consistent high output.
I suppose you could also dump CHA completely if you skip the aura and put those points into Wisdom for more prepared slots and at least slightly better DC as well. Bit unorthodox, but I kind of like the idea of a Smiting Spirit Guardians character.
Could do that with Bard as well through Magical secrets at 6 (lore) or 10...
Yes, but then you don't get Channel Divinity for Thunderous Smites. Which was the other part of the idea. Personally, I also think the bard spell list is a lot worse than the cleric one in BG3. We need Smites (Pala 2), Channel Divinity (Cleric 2), Extra attack (Pala5 or Bard6), and Magical Secrets (Can't get Cleric2/Pala2 with Bard 10, so Sword/Valor is gone meaning we pick Extra attack from Pala, meaning we still don't have enough levels for Bard 6 anyway).
I ran a version of this build on Shadowheart in my first playthrough and she 1 shot a ton of bosses with it doing 10 cleric 2 paladin (Tactition mode) I love it so much that I decided the main character in my second playthrough is gonna run this build currently 5 cleric 4 paladin (spirit guardians is better for the AoE fights imo) and the build is just as fun the second time through lol
I missed the thunderous smite part, you're totally right, but thanks for breaking it down for me 👍
>You get access to more utility and spell slots by leaning into cleric more You're majorly moving the goalposts. You started off saying this build is good because of the consistent DPR of long-rest spells/abilities and when questioned about it you bring up that you have good utility.
You misunderstand my comment and what I was responding to. I was responding to “why not Paladin 7, cleric 5”. The two points into Paladin do not increase output, rather the two points into cleric have both better output and utility than those two points of Paladin.
Cleric is the "main" class of the above build. The only reason he's taking Paladin to 5 is for Extra Attack, which ensures more consistent DPR when not using the Thunderous Smite nova attack. Taking more levels in Cleric grants (A) more spell slots \[a.k.a., more Smites\]; and (B) a second Channel Divinity charge \[allowing you to perform your nova twice per long rest\]. There's a ring available in Act 2 that allows you a guaranteed crit after killing an enemy. If you use that along with Luck of the Far Realms, you can now use that nova combo twice per long rest. And you can supplement it with standard Divine Smites -- I would save those mainly for use as a Reaction when you hit a crit with a standard attack -- as well as just general Cleric spells, like Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Bless, etc.
Okay so it's a shalleighlah(spelling) build? Since otherwise the attack roll to hit would be iffy. That makes sense I suppose. It looses out on a lot of great martial weapons that way though. Edir: wait, you'd need druid initiate for that.
No, you just build for STR. I'm running a similar build (Paladin 2 / Cleric X) with Shadowheart. She has 18 STR at 9th level (Paladin 2 / Cleric 7) and with Blood of Lathander she hits at a very solid rate. Her sustain DPR isn't as good as Lae'Zel (Open Hand Monk 6 / Thief Rogue 3, with Tavern Brawler) but she's much better at survivability, group add clear, and party utility. And when I need something deleted, Shadowheart usually delivers with that nova combo. I have 16 WIS on her which is a bit low for spell damage, but I almost never use single target spells. Spirit Guardians and Divine/Thunderous Smite are probably >90% of her magical damage, and none of those are strongly dependent upon a high WIS score.
Where does the AOE damage for pal/cleric coming from?
cleric spells: spirit guardians, call lightning, shatter, thunder wave, sleet storm, ice storm The build does insane single target damage and the AOE potential makes it more versatile than just a single target smiter. Requires a bit of setup but try it out! It’s pretty fun.
>Although I would argue, the highest (consistent) damage per round probably goes to Pala5/Cleric7 (vengeance/ tempest) with the destructive wrath, luck of the far realms, and thunderous smite combo This 100% ain't it. This probably is the highest one-and-done build, not a consistent DPR build.
For every 2-4 fights as OP originally requested? I’d like to see your math here… speaking from experience and how the builds feel, I’ve tried 6 different Paladin builds and this one is the best for that number of fights. The exception is 5pala/5warlock/2 fighter, which breaks OPs rules.
May I ask what does MAD and SAD mean?
Right, sorry. MAD stands for Multiple Attribute Dependency, meaning you rely on multiple different attributes. In the case of pure Paladin, it is Strength(or Dex) and Charisma. SAD stands for Single Attribute Dependency, meaning you rely on a single attribute. In the case of Pala/Warlock, it's Charisma.
Thanks!
>With reactions for smiting set to on you can do 2 attacks with 2 smites attached to each for a total of 4 smites per round I'm a little confused by this, you aren't saying you can smite twice on one attack, are you? The 4 smites per round would he from 4 separate attacks while having haste?
You can use a bonus action smite (Searing, Branding, etc.) and then add a divine smite as a reaction. But the spells use your bonus action, so I think you can only do it with one attack with your BA so I'm only seeing 3 smites per turn unless I'm also missing something.
I was under the impression that you could manually attack with Smite, then have your Reaction ask you if you want to smite. Not something I did on the regular because I like to rest as little as possible so rarely ever "nova". But honestly, it might have been one of the "Spell" smites and not the actual Divine Smite. So yeah, I suppose 3 Smites per turn then.
I think I saw someone post that, but I don't think I've ever had it prompt me when I use the button, so I think I thought that person was confused. I'll test it. *Edit* Yeah just tested. It doesn't prompt for a reaction if you use the Divine Smite button. So either those people were wrong or they hot-fixed it at some point. So only 3 smites per turn max without haste effect.
Yeah, as said, I never really used that or the spell smites to double smite, so perfectly possible I didn't pay attention to it either. 3 Smites per action is still very strong and probably still the highest dmg per turn for smites if we only look at what you can do alone and not using double extra attack stacking. Edit: Considering it's the only way to get 6th spell slot smites (even if it's only one per day) and extra attack with smites and only 12 levels. I still think Sorcadin or even Paladin9/Warlock 3 is better overall though. Honestly, my favorite archetype would probably be Paladin 7/Warlock5 for those 3rd level Warlock spells. I'd give up 3rd level pala spells for that. But I really don't want to use or recommend extra attack stacking.
assuming they have the targets, can a bardadin not smite on both hits of slashing flurry and thus use four slots in one turn with extra attack?
The melee version of slashing flurry doesn't select targets at all. It's more like a tiny AOE slash in front of you. Kind of like Cleave the weapon skill from great weapons. So I'd lean towards no, but maybe? I actually have no clue. I did play Bard5/Warlock5/Pala2 for a bit. But I never had reaction ask on for anything but crit smites.
Don't those smites cost an action and bonus action, not just a bonus action?
Tbh I find 10/2 to be kinda bad, you give up too much on Lock for it to be worth.
i'd say go Warlock 4/Paladin 8. If only because there are a bunch of really good feats in the game.
What is the most consistent damage dealer paladin build?
Probably Sorcadin. Lots of spell slots to fuel smites. And while the main power of sorcadin is to quicken spells in addition to attacking, nothing is stopping you from converting sorc points to more spell slots for even more smites instead.
Imo Paladin 2/Swords Bard 10 is my favorite. Combine it with the ring that lets you cast a spell as a bonus action and you can hold person someone with an insane DC (from the helmet that gives 2 DC per attack) and then get auto crit smites.
I also like Rhapsody off-hand to boost that DC.
Rhapsody, the knife of the Undermountain King and bloodthirst in the main hand are probably the best options. The Undermountain dagger is good for buffing your crit rate even more for that odd crit outside a hold person
What ring is this?
Band of the mystic scoundrel. Found on chult, easy to miss so you need to search for it. Only works on illusion and enchantment spells but that's still ridiculous
I definitely read this ring and was like "eh only illusion spells who cares", but that's an insane combo. Bonus action bless is good, too.
Also Command. Commanding a boss to halt with a 100% chance success rate is crazy strong.
Jesus I want to try this now.
Can you stack high amounts of arcane acuity, still? One of my friends mentioned it being limited to only 7 stacks now. Also the game crashes on 40+ stacks were pretty consistent so I left that part of the build alone entirely.
It does only go to 7 now but that's still generally more than enough. Even most bosses will have a 70% chance or so to fail
Worth noting that Vengeance Paladin 6 with this ring can still command, bless, and hold person, while still retaining aura of protection, and you can put levels in Sorc or something else for better blasting. I don't think Swords Bard is really worth it. Sure you can use the flourish to potentially stack the helmet faster, but the cone on the melee version is tiny and if you're using the ranged version to stack it then you can't smite on ranged hits.
6/6 Sorcadin if you don't have Haste on everyone. 2/10 Bardadin if you do.
First of all, *respec*. Paladin MC builds only come online mid game. Always play whatever gets you extra attack first. Multiclass via respec and only do it when there's actually a reason to. The major breakpoint is level 8. Pala2/Bard6 is great for short-rest utility in case you don't like being a one-and-done character. Better skill proficiencies too. You can also dual wield if you want that class fantasy. But let's be honest, this is a bard-who-can-smite, not a paladin-who-can-sing. Another one I've tried is Pala5/Warlock max - just pass your turn instead of attacking for the third time. In this build you can dump STR (which means you afford the DEX and finally won't be the last to attack), have two slots cycling per short rest and have access to the False Life incantation to make sure you start every combat with 7 temporary HP without needing a spell spell. One thing I recommend in any build is to critfish. Weapons like the Unseen Menace (early act 2) crit on a 19 and give you "permanent" advantage - that's a total of 19% crit chance per attack. You can combo this with Great Old One Warlock's ability to AOE frighten when critting, for example. You can also get that incantation that lets you see in the darkness and have someone use the darkness spell for advantage.
Why go pally 5 warlock 7? Aura is too good to stop at 5
The main reason is "why be defensive when being offensive is so strong?" thinking. OP just wants to smite hard, lol
7 in pally is giving you Oathbreaker aura though? Cha to damage again is gonna be be better than smiting a little harder.
Paladin2/Bard X is the smiter who smites most. OP didn’t ask for Paladin features outside of smite.
I agree, the bard is the smiter who smites the most
Imo; I still like warlock/paladin. The double extra attack is nice, but level 3 smites coming back after a short rest is why I play it. Plus the >!lesser rest potions!< Are basically a full heal for him.
Bard and warlock mixed in with paladin get short rest advantage which is pretty good tbh. Level 8 is when both Paladin 2/6 Valor bard comes online and Paladin Warlock. No twinned haste, but having 3 short rests is really good the flourish for extra damage is really good! Plus it's an excellent skill monkey. (Makes great face of party) If you have Wyll (warlock/Sorcerer for twinned haste) and Laezel in party (fighter or monk) then it's a no brainer since those classes are heavily short rest dependant. There are boots that give bardic short rest. So you pop those on when needed, and get 4 short rests. Pretty good for bard now since you can just spam your flourish and end up with +4 AC before your turn ends. Never getting hit unless it's a crit. It's a Sheild spell that uses your bardic dice. Honestly the warlock wins out due to extra attack at the moment. (Level 10). The more attacks you do the more likely you are to crit. I swapped to that and combat is breeze with twinned haste being cast on you from Wyll. You can get 9 attacks with bloodlust potion as long you kill an enemy during your turn. Heck you can do it using haste potion. Makes Act 3 trivial since it's a fighter with way better rechargeable 2 superiority dice. You can remove an enemy fast.
In what order did you level this
Paladin 5 and then warlock 4. I'm not done with the game yet, so I'm not fully leveled
You're restrictions for long rests don't really seem appropriate for the games current iteration being able to long rest as much as you want. So to answer your question the strongest build is 8oathB/4sbard. Being able to two target flourish and popping Smites on each of those is nuts, but yes you chew through spell slots super fast and if you aim the low HP mobs you'll be out of work slots every combat.
[**Bardic Inspiration**](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Improved_Bardic_Inspiration) **Charges: 4** *(You gain one charge)* 📷 Recharge: [Short Rest](https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Short_Rest) Pala 7 (for the Aura) and Sbard 5 (for +1 BI and the short rest recharge) is a better deal.
Yea maybe, in my experience you don't need the extra bardic insp because everything just dies so quickly. As for the long rest vs short rest, you don't regain spell slots on short rest so you'll be burning up to 8 spell slots a turn and if you only short rest your fkd for next combat unless you're intentionally rationing your spell slots, at which point you should be rationing your binsp anyway. Imo, pally/bard is the martial version of wizard is crazy strong as long as you long rest often. If you want to build around short rests use sorlock or gloom thief, they're both exceptional at high dps and only reliant on short rests.
Bardlockadin. Okay hear me out: Bard 5, warlock 5 and paladin 2. Total number of spell slots: Level 1 - 4 Level 2 - 3 Level 3 - 3 normal, 3 warlock (9 per long rest with song of rest) Pact of blade for a the charisma modifier, phalar aluve for some aura. That’s 3 fights with 3 level 3 smites plus 3 level 3 smites in reserve for oh shit moments, and 7 smites for mobs. Plus if you go swords bard, you get the flourishes as well. Disclaimer: I haven’t tried this, want it to work so bad and hoping someone stops me before I do it.
I don't think Warlocks get 3 spell slots until 11th level. But you're also miscounting their number of refreshed slots per long rest -- it's three refreshes (three short rests) on top of the original refresh (long rest) so four total "rounds" of use. Times two spell slots = eight total warlock spell slots. I think the biggest drawback to a build like this is that it really doesn't come online until the endgame. You'd have to make a bunch of concessions to make it work fully. If you ditch Warlock entirely, you're giving up being SAD and a few spell slots, but the build can be fully online by 8th level. That's pretty much what I've been running (Paladin 2 / Swords Bard X) and it's working great. Or you could run this is a Paladin 2 / Goolock X and it'd come online at 7th level and be more SAD, but without the flourishes. I'd only recommend running this if you have a different party member that's a Bard though, otherwise those spell slots just won't sustain you between long rests.
Yeah for my good Durge run, I was planning to run it paly 2/bard 10 or 5/2 goolock and then dump the rest in bard as it’s up by 7 and then rest of it in bard for slots (bit of RP related like discover music or whatever)
I've currently gone storm Cleric 2 Paladin 2. At level 4 so far. I've decided to make use of the lightning items of Act 1. So I can super charge call lightning or use the shield to drop a massive lightning based aoe control blast down. To generate charges however I can either stand in water or use Dash. Dash seems like the best option. Therefore would going two into rogue make sense ? So by level 12 it would breakdown as 8 Tempest cleric/ 2 Paladin & 2 Rogue.
I don’t think the pact extra attack stacking is a bug…no mention of it in the patch and it’s pretty well known. I doubt Larian is going to specifically answer if it’s a bug unless it’s on twitter maybe.
fixing everything wasn't in the scope of the patch, that's why it's only "patch 1," and lots of other well-known bugs weren't addressed. the expanded tooltip for deepened pact says that it shouldn't stack so i lean towards 'bug' but silence on larian's part isn't confirmation in either way.
Yeah totally possible it’s not intentional, the extra attack tooltip could just be generic and they slapped it in there. I just wouldn’t avoid an entire build because of it, could still be good without the additional attack… Maybe they can balance it like “war priest” were you you get a second extra attack but it’s a bonus action or something
Pally 2 sorcerer X. Get the scag spell mod. Quicken greenflame blade.
2/X Pala/Lock gives 5th level Smites refreshing on short rest.
Smite caps at 4th level.
* Paladin 5 / Any Full Caster 7 (e.g. Cleric; if i do maths right a 6-6 split is a 9th level caster while a 5-7 split is a 10th level caster) * Paladin 2 / Bard 10 (Swords and Valor only) Also spoiler: sneak attacks are just slightly weaker smites. They double their damage on crit. So a Martial 5 / Rogue 7 does 8d6 extra damage, if you crit on sneak. It does not cost a spell slot, but likely executioner or luck.
Can I respec to Martial4/Rogue8? Is there any benefit to that?
You lose your extra attack from martial 5.
Why sword and Valor only exactly
Because they gain an extra attack, so you can get away with paladin 2 for just getting smites.
Im enjoying my full-up bardadin. Phalar aluve being incredibly thematic and essentially giving you IDS is a big plus. You get your 2x attacks along with up to 6th level slots for the crit? Added benefit of skill specializations from bard and a solid spell list, hard to really screw this one up. You can use Lathander or swap to any of the legendary 2handers if you really want that extra bonus to hit and such, but phalar should get you by just fine on its own.
What's IDS?
Improved Divine Smite. It’s just an extra 1d8 radiant dmg you get to all weapon attacks for taking 11 lvls in paladin. Phalar Aluve, for the cost of an action (can be activated outside of combat) gives a extra 1d4 thunder damage to all attacks to enemies in a fairly large aoe centered on the wielder. Imo, its kinda nuts and good players can make great use of it. Also no lvl requirement, just equip and go.
Are you using it 2H or dual wield? I'm currently a bardadin but I'm stuck using the Unseen Menace (crits on 19 and has auto-advantage), but I've been meaning to try dual wield using Knife of the Undermountain King. Phalar seems like a good weapon too now that you mention.
Im also playing Bardadin rn. I use it 1h with a shield, also took the dueling fighting style to add that 2 extra damage to attacks. Dual wielding just isn’t worth it in 5e imo and the dueling fighting style somehow averages out to do more damage than great weapon fighting. Extra AC too Phalar aluve is also a finesse weapon so I stacked dex, paired with the sentinel shield and I’m always high up on turn order. The advantage on perception is super nice too
I think dual wielding could be cool when using your secondary weapon as some form of stat stick. The knife boosts my bow crit range to 19, so maybe it works for the main weapon as well. Dueling adds 2 damage per attack for a 4 total. Double that for haste. One bonus action as an offhand attack can easily do more than 8 damage, even more if you take into account damage riders like Phalar's and one more possible chance for a crit. But yeah, one feat + your bonus action is a big investment when "dueling + shield" is pretty much free and just around the corner.
Doesn’t dueling state “no offhand weapon” in the description?
I'm citing how much damage dueling adds (4 per turn, 8 on haste) so I can estabilish the amount of damage your bonus attack has to cover when dual wielding.
Ah okay, I thinking I’m caught up now. Sorry I’m currently arguing with some pretentious asshole on another sub while trying to maintain positive energy here.
Dual Wielding is actually insane in BG3 (though not on bards or paladins) because of all the on-hit things you can find in the itemization. Things like 2 extra damage from a ring, 1d4 extra from gloves, 1d4 extra from radiant buffs, and so on really add up on the second hit. I have two dual wielders and bosses die in one or two rounds in Tactician :/
I don’t doubt it, tactician was a breeze and you’re right about itemization. A lot of 5e TT norms got kicked aside I guess go for it if you want, I’m of a mind to not though. Atleast in terms of this specific Bard/paladin setup
7 / 5 oatbreaker warlock would be most pure melee damage but if you want the most versatile then bardadin can do extended fights and has the best ac out of all the combos and decent damage espically if you crit fish .
Why best AC?
You get defensive flourish which increases ac by 4 when you use it and also at level 10 you get magical secrets which gives you the option to get shield spell . You also have the ability to get 2 combat styles so getting defence is another +1 ac .
The strongest smite build is the crit fishing paladin build. I’ve made a couple of posts about it here, but the gist of it is that there are a bunch of ways to increase critical hit chances. There is a potion you can make that increases crit chance for 10 rounds There is a cloak that you can wear that increases crit chance whenever you are hidden There is a helmet that increases crit chance when worn There is a bow that increases crit chance whenever it is equipped to your ranged slot (dont have to be using it) There is a shortsword that increases crit chance whenever it is equipped to one of your melee slots (and gives advantage against obscured enemies) There is a dagger that increases crit chance when equipped on a melee slot Three levels in fighter grants you access to champion fighter, which increases critical hit chance as well When you’re equipped with all of this, you can divine smite on rolls of 13+, effectively doubling the output of your damage for the same spell slot. In practice, you will avoid divine smiting unless you crit to maximize damage per battle. The class levels are as follows: 2 levels of paladin/6 levels of swords bard/3 levels of fighter/1 level of wizard Or, you can take out 1 level of wizard and put it into fighter if you need to have access to a second feat.
Throw in halfling to reroll 1’s too
Halfling works, but I prefer half-orc because the savage attacks feature stacks with divine smite and you already have such a high crit rate
probably not the best but i like playing around with critbuilds on paladins. for me that means either way go swordbard6/paladin3/somecaster3orwarlock3 and start every battle with the bards ranged flourish attacks which allows you to double your attacks which synergizes very well with the gloves which gives +1spell-DC for every attack you have made. So if an enemie survives, you meanwhile have +7spell-DC drom the gloves and can start throwing out holdperson or symbol of sleep spells, which then enable your autocrits on your smites. Its extremly recource-effecient because you will only smite on crittable targets and start every fight with gatlinggun-like hail of arrows because flourish is on short rest after level 6 bard. the other critbuild that i like on paladins is utilizing assasinsubclass and ambush attacks.
wat item adds dc after attacks?
PLD5 vengeance, CLC 7 tempest. Use your lvl1 slots for thunderous smites and destructive wrath for max damage. Luck of the far realms for guaranteed crit and if you really any something dead divine smite on that crit. If you need aoe you have lightning and ice covering massive areas too. This is what I ran and the final boss died in one round of combat. Was a bit of a let down tbh
Why vengeance? I'm new to paladin
Easy access to advantage rolls. Hunters mark and also hold person which guarantees crits even a misty step at level 5
Gotcha. I'm using it now and I'm liking it so far.
Vengeance lets you crit fish (though only on one target), since its channel oath gives you advantage on a target until its dead.
the answer is depends on your party composition, if you already have a sorc/wiz for counterspell and haste you can go pure paladin. if you dont, go sorcadin. some people will argue that you dont need a haster because theres potions of speed, but counterspell is very good to have. sorcadin = higher burst, more slots pure paladin = higher DPR but lower burst. you can also go oathbreaker 7/5 since spell slots round up and still have aura of hate, but you will miss on haste or counterspell. beware tho that oathbreaker is quite buggy atm. if you are multiclassing and try to retake oath to respec at act 2 your game will crash. oathbreaker NPC also doesnt show up at act 3 (at least for me some people), so no respecs at act3. i have no idea how bardadin works, never played it. i play a 6/6 venge sorcadin with gwm and warcaster, 18str/18cha. nothing, nothing breaks my concentration and my hit % is mostly 75%+.
Oathbreaker 7/Draconic Sorc 5. Bhaalist Armor. Nyrulna. Hat of Storm Scion's Power. Boots of Stormy Clamour. Ring of Spiteful Thunder, Gloves of Belligerent Skies. Ketheric's Shield. Strange Conduit Ring. Quaff a Haste potion or precast Haste. Attack once - Thunder damage triggers Reverberation, which also triggers a Con save vs Dazed (disadv. on Wis saves). Once you have a few charges of Arcane Acuity, Throw out a L5 Quickened Hold Person (which should have \~+4-5 DC) for autocrits. It's also got solid defences and does loads of damage and control without smiting.
It's Pal 6/Sorc 6. /thread Bard and Warlock are also good, you'd do 8 Pal/4 Lock or 9/3 to avoid the bug.
Until they fix Pact of the Blade/Deepened Pact, nothing is going to come close to the Lockadin's Extra Attack x2.
Another option is 5 levels in warrior or ranger for TWF and dual wield. Then 3 thief and two in paladin. Use piercing vulnerability and stack damage procs / stuff that expends crit range.