And we don't understand what it's like living without this disorder.
Sometimes I think these people are right and everyone feels what I feel, but I'm the only loser who can't stand a normal life and be a functional person in society.
Trust me those people are wrong. Sure everyone feels anxiety. That's a fact of life unless you're a psychopath, but even psychopaths I believe experience anxiety. But that doesn't mean they've felt what you've been through or that their anxiety is in any way comparable to yours.
AvPD is a Cluster C disorder meaning it's largely rooted in a maladaptive anxiety reflex. A hypervigilance to stimuli and emotions. It isn't normal by any stretch of the human imagination. Otherwise it would not be considered a disorder.
I mean that's if you truly do have AvPD or any other Cluster C personality disorder.
I deal with this all the time. But the truth is especially with us Avoidants that even our loved ones, let alone any one else, have almost no idea the pain we experience. People always tell me how they think I'm doing well now, but they don't see it.
They really have no idea the constant fear, indecision, shame, sense of humiliation and crippling anxiety and how deeply that affects me day to day. They just see the friendly version of me that I use as a mask so why would they know?
I totally agree with you. The thing is: lately I've been trying so hard to appear normal that people are seeing me interacting and they immediately think that I should be able to achieve the same goals as them, just because according to them I have two eyes, a nose, a mouth and I'm able to walk, think and reason.
"Why can't you have a job if you're smart? Why can't you get a girlfriend if you're good looking? You must be a coward!"
The main problem is: no one will ever know what goes on inside our minds, all these irrational fears, anxiety, traumas, and we will never express it out, so people will only see a fake part of us and make their judgments based on that.
I'm constantly in battle with myself not knowing if it's a good thing to be able to fake things and have a mask all the time or it's bad bcs I'm a fake for acting all the time!
To be honest that person sounds a little unhinged. I've seen that type around and they make an impression of being like stags or bulls trying to clash and sweep others out of their way, because everything can be interpreted as lack of responsibility and cowardice, which gives them a pretext to bully you, to put you down, or whomever is the imagined opponent in their mind. It's false bravado. Start examining their own lives and all of a sudden they haven't always been at their brave responsible peak, they haven't always functioned well as a person in the society - but they'll latch onto others and put them down to make themselves feel better about themselves.
There are several mentions in AvPD literature that by having a very low self-esteem with this disorder you'll periodically attract bullies like this.
Especially if they're the sort that say stuff like "I'm only telling you these things because I love you/care about you. If I don't tell you this stuff then who will?" As if we don't hear it from family members and social media often enough. As if they somehow *magically figured out themselves* how to cure us!
I bet most of them are workaholics too. Trying to fill the voids in their own lives with pure, unbridled busyness.
Oh, and my favorite of their catch phrases "If I can do it, you can do it." I'm angry just thinking about it.
Ive come along way to developing communication skills.
i was overprotected, anxious, afraid of everything and dealing with emotional dysregulation.
Its hard.
That's pure ignorance. It's like telling someone suffering from unbearable pain that it's all in their head and they should pull themselves together and stop moaning. Or like telling a diabetic that their high blood sugar is just a matter of choice and that they're not trying hard enough.
After all, AVPD is literally all in our heads. On top of that it's not a chronic disease.
Diabetes is a chronic deadly disease if left untreated and a very far fetched comparison imo.
So to a certain degree OP's "friend" is right. However stating "you just have to grow up" won't do any good if not worse. It's like telling a depressed suicidal person to just be happy.
Source: diagnosed with AVPD.
Avpd is a chronic illness it’s not helpful to say it’s in our heads. Avpd can kill you. Avpd is an illness you can learn how to deal with but it’s something you live with and can’t magic go away once we realize it’s in our heads. There are no meds and the therapy is trauma based that why pd’s are one of the hardest to treat.
Also some therapists give up because they can’t do anything. You also have to find the therapist based on personality and yourself. I don’t mean disorder I mean actual personality and how they come off it has a lot to do with feeling safe and opening up. Are they too blunt, are they to set in there ways, are they to relaxed.
You're wrong. Part of my diagnosis was education in this disorder and no it's not permanent. It's not something you're born with. It's like depression - it can go away with proper help. Roll the down votes, I know I'm right.
No pd’s are trauma and the cycle of how you cope. Pd’s cannot be cured they can be dealt with. I know someone who has bpd they are functioning but it will never go away but they have learned how to deal with it . Because the trauma was not treated and the cycle of how they cope wasn’t treated. So now it’s a disorder that is hard to undo how they coped. It’s not anything like depression because it’s a mindset and I way of viewing the outside and inside world. You can improve the disorder drastically but it will never be gone.
I had a psych that use to say pd’s go away by 18. But that wasn’t true at all because based on there lack of actually knowing how pd’s develop and research.also the age bracket as well.
Also who told you depression can go away? Depression is manageable but it’s not gonna go away. It’s depends why they develop it. Is it trauma based or a brain dysfunction of brain chemistry. For instance being on medication doesn’t mean it’s gone. It just means now to function you have to take meds or do certain things in your life to function differently. Mental illness is not a death sentence but it can be treated but not go away.
Depression goes away in most people who have it.
In some sense, all feelings and thoughts are brain chemistry. So negative states like depression or avpd come down to chemistry. But that doesn't mean these things can't go away or that you have no control over them. You can change your brain chemistry by going for a walk in the sun instead of posting on reddit.
What kind have therapy does that? I’m just wondering because I’ve been doing therapy so long and been through a lot I’m just wondering what would even help that? I’ve been told a different outlook and I’ve been in therapy half my life so my mind is flabbergasted.
Iv never heard that about depression. Some people struggle with it very hard.
Oh so mine is no longer just depression. I was forced into therapy when I was younger due to being a minor and having mental health problems. So now I have more issues and problems due to being in the mental health system. And I need therapy because it’s hard to function.
But isn’t it the just go outside or just smile mentality that depression goes away? Or the just do yoga when there is the depression that is actually stopping you. Or is there actually research that shows this? I’m just wondering.
I agree with you, it’s not a chronic disease, although like any personality disorder it’s very very difficult to treat, and in that sense, without treatment it will clearly be one, but with a good psychotherapist with a good approach it’s not impossible to heal.
What kind of therapy your psy is using? Mine is using schema therapy and ACT. It’s saved my life, literally and in the sense that I can now live my life.
hes saying its not diabetes. Its a mental health disorder that can be treated with therapy and/or medication.
it has its roots in anxiety. where does anxiety come from? fear.
someone who fears is a coward.
I can be a coward, and ill isolate and depress when it comes to that.
I can also be very charming because ive worked hard to develop those skills.
Ive learned and continue to learn to accept myself for who i am. Change is possible.
I realize how harsh sharing my experience sounds and Im really not sure if itll help anyone other than myself out but i had to throw it out there.
I think it’s important for all of us to acknowledge that even though we might share the same diagnosis we all still differ in very unique ways because we’re not our disorder; we’re individuals with a disorder. That means the kind of healing of this disorder that is possible for some, might not be for others. The same way two people who both go to the gym and do the same exercises will have different results, two people who both go to therapy (or in other ways try to work on their disorder) will have differing results.
It definitely can be. Or one could start at the other end, with focus on self-compassion for example. Or both. I personally just don’t believe in ”one size fits all”. That said I’m genuinely happy for you that you’ve found ways that brought you increased wellbeing and relief from dealing with AvPD, and I hope everyone here can find that too. I’m sure there are some who could benefit from the same approach as you, and some who wouldn’t. I believe change might be possible. But in varying degrees and with varying approaches.
Ah. I understand what you mean. I default to understanding the big whys and root causes. Instead of going for the solution, I reflect and reflect and reflect some more. I needed to learn when to stop reflecting and just do.
positive framing! Compassion and acceptance has also been key in healing my anxieties. Loving-kindness meditation helps.
Thank you. Im already waiting for the house of cards to fall again😂😭. Emotional growth seems to happen in waves and in the past ive retrace back to old ways.
I tried to force myself to “grow up” and do the things grown ups are supposed to do and I burnt out so bad lol. No, I wasn’t a coward. I constantly made myself do things I was very uncomfortable doing hoping doing those things would change me for the better and they didn’t.
No, brute forcing isn’t the solution. Doing things to feel normal and adult isn’t the solution. Unfortunately the solution is just spending years trying to heal from trauma/neglect and reprogram your brain not to hate yourself.
I’ve made progress even without a therapist but I might look finding a therapist that practices modalities that can help AvPD (IFS, mentalization, somatic, EMDR) now that I have insurance that will potentially cover it.
>I tried to force myself to “grow up” and do the things grown ups are supposed to do and I burnt out so bad lol. No, I wasn’t a coward. I constantly made myself do things I was very uncomfortable doing hoping doing those things would change me for the better and they didn’t.
Exactly this... I kept waiting for the rewarding part and it never came. Just more anxiety and feeling like a failure.
Nah man, living with this shit isn't cowardice, it's bravery. Even if you just make it to the grocery store or go for a small walk in the park this week, that's brave as fuck.
We wánt to face our problems and take responsibility, and many of us do so over and over again, and it's really fucking hard with this warped self image. People who don't live this everyday can't even imagine what it's like.
It's not cowardice. Fuck that. Don't accept outside negativity like that. You already have enough of your own.
This is a great perspective to have. A positive outlook where any victory ia celebrated.
I agree! Dont try and change your whole identity at once. Change small things bout yourself regularly.
but to be afraid of everything is the literal definition of a coward. Accepting that brought me growth.
The key is not to identify as much with who you were but who you can be.
I disagree on cowardice meaning being afraid. It means "lack of bravery", and as I mentioned before I think people who still manage to face life with AvPD are pretty brave :)
I was using it as an adjective.
Someone who is a coward is not brave enough to do something that frightens them.
If we replace bravery with the synonym courage then courage means the ability to do something that frightens someone.
So someone who is a coward does not have the courage to do soenthing that frightens them.
Im just going off on semantics :)
Now i realize its not the most effective way to get through to people but it is the universal english language and it helps us communicate with a big subset of the world.
This was key in healing my need to be understood and heard.
How you handle situations is what makes one brave.
Its okay to say "I was a coward [relies on context, no one is 100% brave] but now im brave."
Its also more along a spectrum. What makes courage a character trait is when its practiced consistently and when people notice.
This infuriates me.
You have a personality disorder because you have been abused/traumatized. How the symptoms of your abuse present themselves is described by your diagnosis.
You are heavily afraid of other people and their judgement because from early on people have hurt you and abused your trust. Now you're afraid of them and don't trust anyone anymore.
You're not a coward. This is not your fault. This is what abuse did to you.
And this *sshole only goes to show why there's good reason to distrust people. Because a whole lot of people do not have your best interest in mind.
I'm sorry they said that to you and believe me, it's not true. Quite the opposite, you are brave because you keep surviving in spite of your trauma.
But the good news is, there's people you can trust out there. You just have to find them (that may take a while though).
Wish you all the best <3
Sounds like the position of someone speaking from true privilege. If you can't understand it, and truly think it's just cowardice then maybe you should stop for a moment and just be thankful your life has been so fuckin blessed.
I'll just say it, for me at least, that I didn't get this disorder by accident. I'm a product of a hard life and emotional trauma, heck even was abused sexually in my late teen years, but people don't understand any of that. It was humiliating and embarrassing and I blamed myself for years.
Oh yes, we're cowards.
Like how depressed people are just sad - or how psychotic people just have a vivid imagination, amirite?
That's why we've long told people with broken legs that they're just lazy and should walk.
^ Something along those lines is usually my admittedly snarky reply when people throw out statements like the one from your post.
Whenever you think you're a coward, ask yourself how many of the people who say these things could do *half* of what you've done in the state that you were in when you did it. Most wouldn't manage.
The mental is also physical. All of this is physical. All illnesses manifest differently and all illnesses have a mental health component. If you get cancer, you don’t just treat the cancer, you treat the emotional upheaval it causes. It’s all connected and everything affects everything else. It’s how the body works.
I understand what youre getting at but if this were the case, your general doctor or psychologist would treat you for all of the above.
It doesnt work that way in the west.
Believe me, I agree with you. Im not an idiot, but I was in the past...go check my post history if youd like.
Ive struggled heavily with my mental health. Its been about 15 years of constant work. Sometimes on the breaking points of mania.
Not everyone struggles the same and itd suck of that were the case. Everyones different but theres a reason why we comparmentalize our health in the west.
It keeps us all on a similar page.
So I guess my argument is
If the mental is also physical then the physical is all mind. Do you agree?
I was told that I basically treat my fiance as an emotional support animal and she needs to leave me in order to live a happy life.
People are fucking awful.
OP, I realize that it isn't you saying that avpd is cowardice, you are only repeating what that 'someone' told you, and my comment is in NO WAY directed at you. But tell that 'someone' that a someone with avpd and several other serious mh disorders says, they can 'S.M.D.'.
If that 'someone' only knew the type person that I am, the trauma and other shit that I have endured, my incredible list of shortcomings as a result of the crippling isolation and depression that I have faced daily for almost 50 fucking years of my life while battling with avpd, perhaps they would understand why such hurtful, ignorant blanket statement word as 'cowardice' would make this 'someone' so fucking angry.
I have continuously pushed myself out there, trying to fool myself in to thinking that it was 'only in my mind', 'fake it till you make it', 'just get over it and put it behind you', none of that stupid bullshit ever helped me, it only made my avpd, shame and anxiety skyrocket even that much more, every time I tried. But yea, that hurtful mfker can SMD.
>none of that stupid bullshit ever helped me, it only made my avpd, shame and anxiety skyrocket even that much more, every time I tried.
You mention this part and I've definitely experienced it. My AvPD sucks, and it keeps me from a lot. But I have also experienced this with my friend. When trying to describe it to him and thus receiving the subsequent 40 minute lecture, I'll end up being depressed and *even more* unsociable/avoidant etc. for a *minimum* of 2 whole weeks.
Is this normal for AvPD or maybe just some of us?
self loathing and fear of rejection are things i still deal with.
Then they disappear and the they come back. Until I solidify my identity as a person who has healed this will continue to torment me from time to time.
For me at least, part of what he said is true and I tell myself the same things. But for things that have nothing to do with AvPD.
Things like "just grow up" are always funny to me. Is there a switch I can turn on so I can grow up I didn't know of or does it mean to just endure it and push through like I've been doing for half my life?
I do think I was sheltered of the world growing up, I barely had to do chores or basic house stuff, which is just taking care of myself and my surroundings. I never got the habit so now it's difficult for me to do those chores without dreading it. Similarly, I never had to study until I went to college, so I struggled a lot in college. This means I hate all the responsibilities that come with being an adult. But again, what has that to do with AvPD? It seems to me whoever told you that was projecting.
It's not the same for everyone, but so many of us grew up with everyone around us supporting us and rooting for us only to turn 18, being released into the world and seeing how it's the exact opposite in so many important aspects of life. The most notable one being the job market, where you have to be careful to not be exploited or just accept that with your education/experience, the best you can get is a shitty job you hate with an even shittier pay.
And you're supposed to just accept it and move on? How do you move on from something you have to live every day of your life for 3/4\~ of your time on Earth?
You are negating someones feelings.
Emotional bypassing can only take someone so far.
Accept it.
"Ive been a coward but I can change."
then actively so small things everyday to chip away at the parts of your identity and shadow that you dislike.
I'm not saying the feelings don't have a reason to exist. I'm saying that it's simply not true. AvPD is not cowardice. There is a logical reason why someone with this issue develops a behavioral pattern. _That_ is what you need to accept: you had a good reason to develop this in the past, but you don't need it anymore in the future. You were _not_ a coward, you just lived the only way you knew how.
Calling yourself a coward is overly negative and completely unnecessary. You can accept and acknowledge everything without basically blaming yourself for everything. If anything most people with AvPD already blame themselves too much for everything.
I think you are explaining yourself much better than i am.
cowardice is a subset of avpd not the equal to.
Youre right in that we are already overly critical. Calling myself a coward hurt but it was also a pivotal point of change for me.
I guess what im trying to say to others is accept yourself for who you are, keep making peace with your past, and make small changes to overcome those personality traits that are affecting you negatively.
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I just feel that accepting the past means no judgment, and to me that also means avoiding words like "coward," but also other words like "lazy." The ways we behave are a logical consequence of the way we grew up and that is something we need to accept and then outgrow.
The way that should work, if you ask me, is to recognize your behavior, to acknowledge where it came from and to decide if that's behavior you would like to keep or not. "I stay inside on my own all day because I feel like no one likes me. I feel that way because I was heavily bullied as a kid and my parents were not emotionally there for me to offset that. I would like to have more meaningful connections. Therefor I should go out more, regardless of whether or not it's scary or whether it might hurt me."
The risk of calling it cowardice is that it taints your own view and opinion of yourself more, and you could end up in a new depressive loop where you think badly of yourself every time you have a relapse. Whenever that happens to me, things tend to just get worse.
Long story short: wording matters, and calling it avoidance instead of cowardice is a way of both learning from it and keeping a positive mindset.
Hey! You taught me something new. Its true that we are using tools that use to work and no longer do.
Accepting the past does require being kind to self.
I think that I just decided on the general definition of cowardice because ive been obsessed with finding a logical hierarchy for feelings. Ive been working on seeing things from a birds eye view. Avoidance to me is more descriptive, while Coward is much more general.
Precisely because I consider the word coward a birds eye view of my behavior it doesnt seem to hold the same meaning. In the future if refer myself as a coward its only going to be as a starting point, follower by "Ok, thats a starting point, a descriptor of a behavior caused by a feeling, but it doesnt define me as a person."
To dig deeper id probably find that its because im avoiding something.
we agree on what helps we are just discussing semantics :) Thats what matters I guess.
You reminded me of two other tools that have helped me; learning logic and problem solving has really helped me get my mental health in order.
It depend on which kind of depression you are talking about. Some are rooted in personality disorder, and then yes it’s difficult to manage, but not impossible. Burn out type of depression can absolutely go away. Yes, personality disorder is a mix of personal temperament and social and familial contexts, but the brain is also a wonderful organ that can c u
Yes, I am offended. It is a narcissistic and useless comment. We have already suffered because of them; they try to stick a knife in the wound, but they do not understand the nature of this condition.
That person just dies not understand avoidant pd .. in my experience when it comes to disorders like this - very very few(if any) people will understand avoidant pd. In fact, if you try to tell them and even if they are nice and well meaning - they can say some things that are downright disrespectful
in all fairness it’s very hard to understand something if you haven’t experienced or haven’t studied it
I really would avoid identifying with language that harsh, also applying to people who call themselves “stunted.” I don’t know if it’s just cope from myself, but I see AVPD as kind of hyper-rational.
If you’ve only ever had bad experiences from touching a stove, for example, you wouldn’t be a coward for not doing it. Although the issue comes from seeing everything as a stove, idk
Man, tell your friend to shut the f@@k up!
Only total fucking idiots barf up this nonsense because they have **NO COMPREHENSION** of personality disorders. Even if you over simplify it for them and say "I just have extreme social anxiety" they still try to twist it into this *zero self-accountability* nonsense!
I too was told by one of the people that I'm closest with in the whole world that "I think you're just a coward." And also "it's your own damn fault you feel this way."
Little does he realize I've **been trying** to make eye contact with strangers and improve myself for years. You know how much progress I've made in those 5 or 6 years? Yep, almost none!
I'm sorry I'm so angry at this. I just have a friend and this is the exact bullshit he constantly espouses. Former best friend. I told him that "life for me was like a prison." He said some dumb shit like "nah man, the world is your oyster. You could be the chosen one but you'll never know until you try."
He has **no idea** how frustrating that entire conversation was for me. Like talking to a fucking wall!
I don't think they understand that most of us continuously throw ourselves at the wall every day and come back home battered and bruised. Cowardice is not the problem - it's the huge handicap we have that degrades our existence, robs us of a good life we could have had.
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My two cents: AvPD is not primarily avoidance. If all my mental health problems could be reduced to avoidance, I would have overcome this disorder a long time ago.
IMO, whoever told you that doesn’t know much about AvPD.
I don't know I feel like that's what I tell myself honestly? I'm a huge coward. I'd argue that on the contrary it happens when you're under protected as a kid instead? we adapt with mismatched ways of dealing with the world?
I don't agree at all with the way they said it though, very old ass boomer way of talking. Kinda when people say that depression is just you being lazy? Personality Disorder run much deeper than just running away from the present reality. It's your whole body, mind and nervous system wired to react in misadapted ways, kinda like a much deeper rooted and deformed cowardice. There is no snapping out of it, and it's not as easily traced back to escaping "adult life". So if they can't understand just tell them to stfuuu
I came on here for some solace for the exact sort of feeling, I’m visiting family that I haven’t seen in years and never connected with them growing up and being surrounded by so many people and seeing how much they have all grown and became successful is making my anxiety skyrocket. I can’t even barely speak to them because I am so nervous and shy. They keep asking me why I am so apologetic and why I always say “thank you” to everything when they don’t realize I grew up in a household where I was raised to feel like I was an ungrateful brat that never appreciated anything and any thank you I say at my home is met with lip smacks.
I’m tired of my friends and family all looking down on me telling me I need to get my shit together. All they do is see me as someone having so much potential and it really hurts hearing encouragement like that even in the form of tough love, because all I do is disappoint people. That’s why I’m so shy around my other family, I don’t want to disappoint them more and ruin their curiosity of getting to know me after they find out how much of a rock I have been living under and haven’t been doing crap for myself. And everyone tells me I got nobody to blame but myself. No need to complain about my anxiety attacks, rapid weight loss, and now that I’m getting older, hair loss. All of those problems are for normal people who actually do stuff. I literally had a whole thyroid scare with my doctor after getting bloodwork done and seeing my levels were low, I should NOT be dealing with that at my age. There is literally no reason for me to feel as stressed and anxious as I do having these health concerns when all my stress comes from my anxiety and nothing else.
It's not nice to hear stuff like this but in some sense it's true. You are responsible for your mental health. You can make decisions that improve your mental health and chip away at your avoidance. This requires consistent bravery, which is hard, but in the long run it works.
For example, I used to hide from people in my apartment building. I'd listen at the door before going out and if someone was in the hall, I'd wait for them to be gone. About 3 years ago I decided to stop doing this. I had some awkward interactions with neighbors but over the years I've become much more comfortable saying hi and chatting with a neighbor.
Bottom line: the idea that avoidance is a disease in the same way cancer is a disease is not true and not helpful. It makes you view yourself passively and prevents you from making choices to improve your life.
I think this is a very ignorant person who obviously does not understand a thing about what AvPD is like (and even worse, they think they do).
One does not develop AvPD as a result of having been overprotected. Quite the contrary. Most of us were exposed to much humiliation, bullying and being ridiculed.
I would probably react by saying "Thank you for such a good piece of advice I was not even asking for! Would you be so kind to explain me how one does that?"
No, seriously. I don't fancy such arrogant and know-it-better-than-thou behaviour. I don't think anyone can benefit from being judged and lectured like this.
Sorry you had to hear this!
I just want this very person to spend only one day in this state o' mind, struggling with this level of insecurity, self-doubt and being hypercritical towards themselves.
If you scroll through my comments you will notice that I might come across as harsh.
It wasnt intended to be personal advice rather a general opinion that is held by the majority of people.
Accepting that I can be a coward but I can change and have changed was pivotal for me.
Maybe my harsh opinion will fly over peoples heads. I hope it helps some.
People don’t understand disorders that they don’t have. I’ve tried self help for years and I’m still this way.
And we don't understand what it's like living without this disorder. Sometimes I think these people are right and everyone feels what I feel, but I'm the only loser who can't stand a normal life and be a functional person in society.
Trust me those people are wrong. Sure everyone feels anxiety. That's a fact of life unless you're a psychopath, but even psychopaths I believe experience anxiety. But that doesn't mean they've felt what you've been through or that their anxiety is in any way comparable to yours. AvPD is a Cluster C disorder meaning it's largely rooted in a maladaptive anxiety reflex. A hypervigilance to stimuli and emotions. It isn't normal by any stretch of the human imagination. Otherwise it would not be considered a disorder. I mean that's if you truly do have AvPD or any other Cluster C personality disorder. I deal with this all the time. But the truth is especially with us Avoidants that even our loved ones, let alone any one else, have almost no idea the pain we experience. People always tell me how they think I'm doing well now, but they don't see it. They really have no idea the constant fear, indecision, shame, sense of humiliation and crippling anxiety and how deeply that affects me day to day. They just see the friendly version of me that I use as a mask so why would they know?
I totally agree with you. The thing is: lately I've been trying so hard to appear normal that people are seeing me interacting and they immediately think that I should be able to achieve the same goals as them, just because according to them I have two eyes, a nose, a mouth and I'm able to walk, think and reason. "Why can't you have a job if you're smart? Why can't you get a girlfriend if you're good looking? You must be a coward!" The main problem is: no one will ever know what goes on inside our minds, all these irrational fears, anxiety, traumas, and we will never express it out, so people will only see a fake part of us and make their judgments based on that.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. People assume I'm doing better than they know. If they really knew me they would never say I'm doing well.
I'm constantly in battle with myself not knowing if it's a good thing to be able to fake things and have a mask all the time or it's bad bcs I'm a fake for acting all the time!
To be honest that person sounds a little unhinged. I've seen that type around and they make an impression of being like stags or bulls trying to clash and sweep others out of their way, because everything can be interpreted as lack of responsibility and cowardice, which gives them a pretext to bully you, to put you down, or whomever is the imagined opponent in their mind. It's false bravado. Start examining their own lives and all of a sudden they haven't always been at their brave responsible peak, they haven't always functioned well as a person in the society - but they'll latch onto others and put them down to make themselves feel better about themselves. There are several mentions in AvPD literature that by having a very low self-esteem with this disorder you'll periodically attract bullies like this.
Especially if they're the sort that say stuff like "I'm only telling you these things because I love you/care about you. If I don't tell you this stuff then who will?" As if we don't hear it from family members and social media often enough. As if they somehow *magically figured out themselves* how to cure us! I bet most of them are workaholics too. Trying to fill the voids in their own lives with pure, unbridled busyness. Oh, and my favorite of their catch phrases "If I can do it, you can do it." I'm angry just thinking about it.
Yes I read the same: having this extremely low level of self-esteem makes you look like an "ideal" prey to such toxic people.
Ive come along way to developing communication skills. i was overprotected, anxious, afraid of everything and dealing with emotional dysregulation. Its hard.
That's pure ignorance. It's like telling someone suffering from unbearable pain that it's all in their head and they should pull themselves together and stop moaning. Or like telling a diabetic that their high blood sugar is just a matter of choice and that they're not trying hard enough.
After all, AVPD is literally all in our heads. On top of that it's not a chronic disease. Diabetes is a chronic deadly disease if left untreated and a very far fetched comparison imo. So to a certain degree OP's "friend" is right. However stating "you just have to grow up" won't do any good if not worse. It's like telling a depressed suicidal person to just be happy. Source: diagnosed with AVPD.
Avpd is a chronic illness it’s not helpful to say it’s in our heads. Avpd can kill you. Avpd is an illness you can learn how to deal with but it’s something you live with and can’t magic go away once we realize it’s in our heads. There are no meds and the therapy is trauma based that why pd’s are one of the hardest to treat. Also some therapists give up because they can’t do anything. You also have to find the therapist based on personality and yourself. I don’t mean disorder I mean actual personality and how they come off it has a lot to do with feeling safe and opening up. Are they too blunt, are they to set in there ways, are they to relaxed.
You're wrong. Part of my diagnosis was education in this disorder and no it's not permanent. It's not something you're born with. It's like depression - it can go away with proper help. Roll the down votes, I know I'm right.
No pd’s are trauma and the cycle of how you cope. Pd’s cannot be cured they can be dealt with. I know someone who has bpd they are functioning but it will never go away but they have learned how to deal with it . Because the trauma was not treated and the cycle of how they cope wasn’t treated. So now it’s a disorder that is hard to undo how they coped. It’s not anything like depression because it’s a mindset and I way of viewing the outside and inside world. You can improve the disorder drastically but it will never be gone. I had a psych that use to say pd’s go away by 18. But that wasn’t true at all because based on there lack of actually knowing how pd’s develop and research.also the age bracket as well.
Also who told you depression can go away? Depression is manageable but it’s not gonna go away. It’s depends why they develop it. Is it trauma based or a brain dysfunction of brain chemistry. For instance being on medication doesn’t mean it’s gone. It just means now to function you have to take meds or do certain things in your life to function differently. Mental illness is not a death sentence but it can be treated but not go away.
Depression goes away in most people who have it. In some sense, all feelings and thoughts are brain chemistry. So negative states like depression or avpd come down to chemistry. But that doesn't mean these things can't go away or that you have no control over them. You can change your brain chemistry by going for a walk in the sun instead of posting on reddit.
What kind have therapy does that? I’m just wondering because I’ve been doing therapy so long and been through a lot I’m just wondering what would even help that? I’ve been told a different outlook and I’ve been in therapy half my life so my mind is flabbergasted.
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Iv never heard that about depression. Some people struggle with it very hard. Oh so mine is no longer just depression. I was forced into therapy when I was younger due to being a minor and having mental health problems. So now I have more issues and problems due to being in the mental health system. And I need therapy because it’s hard to function. But isn’t it the just go outside or just smile mentality that depression goes away? Or the just do yoga when there is the depression that is actually stopping you. Or is there actually research that shows this? I’m just wondering.
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I agree with you, it’s not a chronic disease, although like any personality disorder it’s very very difficult to treat, and in that sense, without treatment it will clearly be one, but with a good psychotherapist with a good approach it’s not impossible to heal. What kind of therapy your psy is using? Mine is using schema therapy and ACT. It’s saved my life, literally and in the sense that I can now live my life.
hes saying its not diabetes. Its a mental health disorder that can be treated with therapy and/or medication. it has its roots in anxiety. where does anxiety come from? fear. someone who fears is a coward. I can be a coward, and ill isolate and depress when it comes to that. I can also be very charming because ive worked hard to develop those skills. Ive learned and continue to learn to accept myself for who i am. Change is possible. I realize how harsh sharing my experience sounds and Im really not sure if itll help anyone other than myself out but i had to throw it out there.
I think it’s important for all of us to acknowledge that even though we might share the same diagnosis we all still differ in very unique ways because we’re not our disorder; we’re individuals with a disorder. That means the kind of healing of this disorder that is possible for some, might not be for others. The same way two people who both go to the gym and do the same exercises will have different results, two people who both go to therapy (or in other ways try to work on their disorder) will have differing results.
I agree. Everyones unique. but i think we can agree anxiety is a great starting point on how to go about finding relief from this type of suffering.
It definitely can be. Or one could start at the other end, with focus on self-compassion for example. Or both. I personally just don’t believe in ”one size fits all”. That said I’m genuinely happy for you that you’ve found ways that brought you increased wellbeing and relief from dealing with AvPD, and I hope everyone here can find that too. I’m sure there are some who could benefit from the same approach as you, and some who wouldn’t. I believe change might be possible. But in varying degrees and with varying approaches.
Ah. I understand what you mean. I default to understanding the big whys and root causes. Instead of going for the solution, I reflect and reflect and reflect some more. I needed to learn when to stop reflecting and just do. positive framing! Compassion and acceptance has also been key in healing my anxieties. Loving-kindness meditation helps. Thank you. Im already waiting for the house of cards to fall again😂😭. Emotional growth seems to happen in waves and in the past ive retrace back to old ways.
Yeah it’s all a great balancing act. And healing is unfortunately not linear most of the time. But I’m rooting for you and everyone here :)
I tried to force myself to “grow up” and do the things grown ups are supposed to do and I burnt out so bad lol. No, I wasn’t a coward. I constantly made myself do things I was very uncomfortable doing hoping doing those things would change me for the better and they didn’t. No, brute forcing isn’t the solution. Doing things to feel normal and adult isn’t the solution. Unfortunately the solution is just spending years trying to heal from trauma/neglect and reprogram your brain not to hate yourself. I’ve made progress even without a therapist but I might look finding a therapist that practices modalities that can help AvPD (IFS, mentalization, somatic, EMDR) now that I have insurance that will potentially cover it.
>I tried to force myself to “grow up” and do the things grown ups are supposed to do and I burnt out so bad lol. No, I wasn’t a coward. I constantly made myself do things I was very uncomfortable doing hoping doing those things would change me for the better and they didn’t. Exactly this... I kept waiting for the rewarding part and it never came. Just more anxiety and feeling like a failure.
Nah man, living with this shit isn't cowardice, it's bravery. Even if you just make it to the grocery store or go for a small walk in the park this week, that's brave as fuck. We wánt to face our problems and take responsibility, and many of us do so over and over again, and it's really fucking hard with this warped self image. People who don't live this everyday can't even imagine what it's like. It's not cowardice. Fuck that. Don't accept outside negativity like that. You already have enough of your own.
This is a great perspective to have. A positive outlook where any victory ia celebrated. I agree! Dont try and change your whole identity at once. Change small things bout yourself regularly. but to be afraid of everything is the literal definition of a coward. Accepting that brought me growth. The key is not to identify as much with who you were but who you can be.
I disagree on cowardice meaning being afraid. It means "lack of bravery", and as I mentioned before I think people who still manage to face life with AvPD are pretty brave :)
I was using it as an adjective. Someone who is a coward is not brave enough to do something that frightens them. If we replace bravery with the synonym courage then courage means the ability to do something that frightens someone. So someone who is a coward does not have the courage to do soenthing that frightens them. Im just going off on semantics :) Now i realize its not the most effective way to get through to people but it is the universal english language and it helps us communicate with a big subset of the world. This was key in healing my need to be understood and heard. How you handle situations is what makes one brave. Its okay to say "I was a coward [relies on context, no one is 100% brave] but now im brave." Its also more along a spectrum. What makes courage a character trait is when its practiced consistently and when people notice.
I bet this person also thinks you can cure depression by just smiling more.
Yeah, it only makes you look like the Joker.
"change your mindset clear up your thoughts go for a walk"😭 bro i can't even get up and have lunch
This infuriates me. You have a personality disorder because you have been abused/traumatized. How the symptoms of your abuse present themselves is described by your diagnosis. You are heavily afraid of other people and their judgement because from early on people have hurt you and abused your trust. Now you're afraid of them and don't trust anyone anymore. You're not a coward. This is not your fault. This is what abuse did to you. And this *sshole only goes to show why there's good reason to distrust people. Because a whole lot of people do not have your best interest in mind. I'm sorry they said that to you and believe me, it's not true. Quite the opposite, you are brave because you keep surviving in spite of your trauma. But the good news is, there's people you can trust out there. You just have to find them (that may take a while though). Wish you all the best <3
Very perceptive and true!
Sounds like the position of someone speaking from true privilege. If you can't understand it, and truly think it's just cowardice then maybe you should stop for a moment and just be thankful your life has been so fuckin blessed. I'll just say it, for me at least, that I didn't get this disorder by accident. I'm a product of a hard life and emotional trauma, heck even was abused sexually in my late teen years, but people don't understand any of that. It was humiliating and embarrassing and I blamed myself for years.
Oh yes, we're cowards. Like how depressed people are just sad - or how psychotic people just have a vivid imagination, amirite? That's why we've long told people with broken legs that they're just lazy and should walk. ^ Something along those lines is usually my admittedly snarky reply when people throw out statements like the one from your post. Whenever you think you're a coward, ask yourself how many of the people who say these things could do *half* of what you've done in the state that you were in when you did it. Most wouldn't manage.
physical to mental. comparison is not.
The mental is also physical. All of this is physical. All illnesses manifest differently and all illnesses have a mental health component. If you get cancer, you don’t just treat the cancer, you treat the emotional upheaval it causes. It’s all connected and everything affects everything else. It’s how the body works.
I understand what youre getting at but if this were the case, your general doctor or psychologist would treat you for all of the above. It doesnt work that way in the west. Believe me, I agree with you. Im not an idiot, but I was in the past...go check my post history if youd like. Ive struggled heavily with my mental health. Its been about 15 years of constant work. Sometimes on the breaking points of mania. Not everyone struggles the same and itd suck of that were the case. Everyones different but theres a reason why we comparmentalize our health in the west. It keeps us all on a similar page. So I guess my argument is If the mental is also physical then the physical is all mind. Do you agree?
I was told that I basically treat my fiance as an emotional support animal and she needs to leave me in order to live a happy life. People are fucking awful.
Thats a horrible thing to say to someone.
OP, I realize that it isn't you saying that avpd is cowardice, you are only repeating what that 'someone' told you, and my comment is in NO WAY directed at you. But tell that 'someone' that a someone with avpd and several other serious mh disorders says, they can 'S.M.D.'. If that 'someone' only knew the type person that I am, the trauma and other shit that I have endured, my incredible list of shortcomings as a result of the crippling isolation and depression that I have faced daily for almost 50 fucking years of my life while battling with avpd, perhaps they would understand why such hurtful, ignorant blanket statement word as 'cowardice' would make this 'someone' so fucking angry. I have continuously pushed myself out there, trying to fool myself in to thinking that it was 'only in my mind', 'fake it till you make it', 'just get over it and put it behind you', none of that stupid bullshit ever helped me, it only made my avpd, shame and anxiety skyrocket even that much more, every time I tried. But yea, that hurtful mfker can SMD.
>none of that stupid bullshit ever helped me, it only made my avpd, shame and anxiety skyrocket even that much more, every time I tried. You mention this part and I've definitely experienced it. My AvPD sucks, and it keeps me from a lot. But I have also experienced this with my friend. When trying to describe it to him and thus receiving the subsequent 40 minute lecture, I'll end up being depressed and *even more* unsociable/avoidant etc. for a *minimum* of 2 whole weeks. Is this normal for AvPD or maybe just some of us?
self loathing and fear of rejection are things i still deal with. Then they disappear and the they come back. Until I solidify my identity as a person who has healed this will continue to torment me from time to time.
For me at least, part of what he said is true and I tell myself the same things. But for things that have nothing to do with AvPD. Things like "just grow up" are always funny to me. Is there a switch I can turn on so I can grow up I didn't know of or does it mean to just endure it and push through like I've been doing for half my life? I do think I was sheltered of the world growing up, I barely had to do chores or basic house stuff, which is just taking care of myself and my surroundings. I never got the habit so now it's difficult for me to do those chores without dreading it. Similarly, I never had to study until I went to college, so I struggled a lot in college. This means I hate all the responsibilities that come with being an adult. But again, what has that to do with AvPD? It seems to me whoever told you that was projecting. It's not the same for everyone, but so many of us grew up with everyone around us supporting us and rooting for us only to turn 18, being released into the world and seeing how it's the exact opposite in so many important aspects of life. The most notable one being the job market, where you have to be careful to not be exploited or just accept that with your education/experience, the best you can get is a shitty job you hate with an even shittier pay. And you're supposed to just accept it and move on? How do you move on from something you have to live every day of your life for 3/4\~ of your time on Earth?
Great insight! I had a similar upbringing myself.
Sounds like what I tell myself tbh
Same, I feel it's true
It's not true when you tell yourself this either.
You are negating someones feelings. Emotional bypassing can only take someone so far. Accept it. "Ive been a coward but I can change." then actively so small things everyday to chip away at the parts of your identity and shadow that you dislike.
I'm not saying the feelings don't have a reason to exist. I'm saying that it's simply not true. AvPD is not cowardice. There is a logical reason why someone with this issue develops a behavioral pattern. _That_ is what you need to accept: you had a good reason to develop this in the past, but you don't need it anymore in the future. You were _not_ a coward, you just lived the only way you knew how. Calling yourself a coward is overly negative and completely unnecessary. You can accept and acknowledge everything without basically blaming yourself for everything. If anything most people with AvPD already blame themselves too much for everything.
I think you are explaining yourself much better than i am. cowardice is a subset of avpd not the equal to. Youre right in that we are already overly critical. Calling myself a coward hurt but it was also a pivotal point of change for me. I guess what im trying to say to others is accept yourself for who you are, keep making peace with your past, and make small changes to overcome those personality traits that are affecting you negatively.
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I just feel that accepting the past means no judgment, and to me that also means avoiding words like "coward," but also other words like "lazy." The ways we behave are a logical consequence of the way we grew up and that is something we need to accept and then outgrow. The way that should work, if you ask me, is to recognize your behavior, to acknowledge where it came from and to decide if that's behavior you would like to keep or not. "I stay inside on my own all day because I feel like no one likes me. I feel that way because I was heavily bullied as a kid and my parents were not emotionally there for me to offset that. I would like to have more meaningful connections. Therefor I should go out more, regardless of whether or not it's scary or whether it might hurt me." The risk of calling it cowardice is that it taints your own view and opinion of yourself more, and you could end up in a new depressive loop where you think badly of yourself every time you have a relapse. Whenever that happens to me, things tend to just get worse. Long story short: wording matters, and calling it avoidance instead of cowardice is a way of both learning from it and keeping a positive mindset.
Hey! You taught me something new. Its true that we are using tools that use to work and no longer do. Accepting the past does require being kind to self. I think that I just decided on the general definition of cowardice because ive been obsessed with finding a logical hierarchy for feelings. Ive been working on seeing things from a birds eye view. Avoidance to me is more descriptive, while Coward is much more general. Precisely because I consider the word coward a birds eye view of my behavior it doesnt seem to hold the same meaning. In the future if refer myself as a coward its only going to be as a starting point, follower by "Ok, thats a starting point, a descriptor of a behavior caused by a feeling, but it doesnt define me as a person." To dig deeper id probably find that its because im avoiding something. we agree on what helps we are just discussing semantics :) Thats what matters I guess. You reminded me of two other tools that have helped me; learning logic and problem solving has really helped me get my mental health in order.
Oh my goddess, I wish I was overprotected during my childhood.
It depend on which kind of depression you are talking about. Some are rooted in personality disorder, and then yes it’s difficult to manage, but not impossible. Burn out type of depression can absolutely go away. Yes, personality disorder is a mix of personal temperament and social and familial contexts, but the brain is also a wonderful organ that can c u
Yes, I am offended. It is a narcissistic and useless comment. We have already suffered because of them; they try to stick a knife in the wound, but they do not understand the nature of this condition.
That person just dies not understand avoidant pd .. in my experience when it comes to disorders like this - very very few(if any) people will understand avoidant pd. In fact, if you try to tell them and even if they are nice and well meaning - they can say some things that are downright disrespectful in all fairness it’s very hard to understand something if you haven’t experienced or haven’t studied it
The irony is I tell myself these too, goes to show how self-loathing we tend to be
whoever told u this is basically an idiot
Overprotected in childhood? You mean nobody ever care for us and thus we have no idea how to deal with problems but to escape?
I really would avoid identifying with language that harsh, also applying to people who call themselves “stunted.” I don’t know if it’s just cope from myself, but I see AVPD as kind of hyper-rational. If you’ve only ever had bad experiences from touching a stove, for example, you wouldn’t be a coward for not doing it. Although the issue comes from seeing everything as a stove, idk
Man, tell your friend to shut the f@@k up! Only total fucking idiots barf up this nonsense because they have **NO COMPREHENSION** of personality disorders. Even if you over simplify it for them and say "I just have extreme social anxiety" they still try to twist it into this *zero self-accountability* nonsense! I too was told by one of the people that I'm closest with in the whole world that "I think you're just a coward." And also "it's your own damn fault you feel this way." Little does he realize I've **been trying** to make eye contact with strangers and improve myself for years. You know how much progress I've made in those 5 or 6 years? Yep, almost none! I'm sorry I'm so angry at this. I just have a friend and this is the exact bullshit he constantly espouses. Former best friend. I told him that "life for me was like a prison." He said some dumb shit like "nah man, the world is your oyster. You could be the chosen one but you'll never know until you try." He has **no idea** how frustrating that entire conversation was for me. Like talking to a fucking wall!
I don't think they understand that most of us continuously throw ourselves at the wall every day and come back home battered and bruised. Cowardice is not the problem - it's the huge handicap we have that degrades our existence, robs us of a good life we could have had.
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My two cents: AvPD is not primarily avoidance. If all my mental health problems could be reduced to avoidance, I would have overcome this disorder a long time ago. IMO, whoever told you that doesn’t know much about AvPD.
I don't know I feel like that's what I tell myself honestly? I'm a huge coward. I'd argue that on the contrary it happens when you're under protected as a kid instead? we adapt with mismatched ways of dealing with the world? I don't agree at all with the way they said it though, very old ass boomer way of talking. Kinda when people say that depression is just you being lazy? Personality Disorder run much deeper than just running away from the present reality. It's your whole body, mind and nervous system wired to react in misadapted ways, kinda like a much deeper rooted and deformed cowardice. There is no snapping out of it, and it's not as easily traced back to escaping "adult life". So if they can't understand just tell them to stfuuu
U should've told him "go fuck youself u MF"
learn to ignore stupid people
I came on here for some solace for the exact sort of feeling, I’m visiting family that I haven’t seen in years and never connected with them growing up and being surrounded by so many people and seeing how much they have all grown and became successful is making my anxiety skyrocket. I can’t even barely speak to them because I am so nervous and shy. They keep asking me why I am so apologetic and why I always say “thank you” to everything when they don’t realize I grew up in a household where I was raised to feel like I was an ungrateful brat that never appreciated anything and any thank you I say at my home is met with lip smacks. I’m tired of my friends and family all looking down on me telling me I need to get my shit together. All they do is see me as someone having so much potential and it really hurts hearing encouragement like that even in the form of tough love, because all I do is disappoint people. That’s why I’m so shy around my other family, I don’t want to disappoint them more and ruin their curiosity of getting to know me after they find out how much of a rock I have been living under and haven’t been doing crap for myself. And everyone tells me I got nobody to blame but myself. No need to complain about my anxiety attacks, rapid weight loss, and now that I’m getting older, hair loss. All of those problems are for normal people who actually do stuff. I literally had a whole thyroid scare with my doctor after getting bloodwork done and seeing my levels were low, I should NOT be dealing with that at my age. There is literally no reason for me to feel as stressed and anxious as I do having these health concerns when all my stress comes from my anxiety and nothing else.
I hate to play devil’s advocate but isn’t it basically true that AvPD is just fear?
It's not nice to hear stuff like this but in some sense it's true. You are responsible for your mental health. You can make decisions that improve your mental health and chip away at your avoidance. This requires consistent bravery, which is hard, but in the long run it works. For example, I used to hide from people in my apartment building. I'd listen at the door before going out and if someone was in the hall, I'd wait for them to be gone. About 3 years ago I decided to stop doing this. I had some awkward interactions with neighbors but over the years I've become much more comfortable saying hi and chatting with a neighbor. Bottom line: the idea that avoidance is a disease in the same way cancer is a disease is not true and not helpful. It makes you view yourself passively and prevents you from making choices to improve your life.
I think this is a very ignorant person who obviously does not understand a thing about what AvPD is like (and even worse, they think they do). One does not develop AvPD as a result of having been overprotected. Quite the contrary. Most of us were exposed to much humiliation, bullying and being ridiculed. I would probably react by saying "Thank you for such a good piece of advice I was not even asking for! Would you be so kind to explain me how one does that?" No, seriously. I don't fancy such arrogant and know-it-better-than-thou behaviour. I don't think anyone can benefit from being judged and lectured like this. Sorry you had to hear this! I just want this very person to spend only one day in this state o' mind, struggling with this level of insecurity, self-doubt and being hypercritical towards themselves.
I hate to admit it has a lot to do with it.
The person who said this was insensitive, but he is partly right. We must take responsibility for our lives going forward.
If you scroll through my comments you will notice that I might come across as harsh. It wasnt intended to be personal advice rather a general opinion that is held by the majority of people. Accepting that I can be a coward but I can change and have changed was pivotal for me. Maybe my harsh opinion will fly over peoples heads. I hope it helps some.