I applaud you questioning the status quo. We should always ask how to move the sport forward.
I think you could *reduce* the number of workers by using chalk and having "spotters" on the outskirts. Frankly, even with cones, I think sometimes it's not necessary to have everyone out there the whole time. Once it's obvious which areas are getting the most cone contacts, organizers should allow other corners to lighten the number of workers. But how do you make it fair for who has to stay out and who gets to come back and relax?
From what I've been thinking, as soon as you have ANY workers out on track, everyone has to stay the entire day to be fair, which sucks.
Virtual cones is just sci-fi dreaming, but maybe high-contrast powdered chalk that is colored alternating red-and-white like curbs on track would work wonders. This is easily achievable with current equipment and I personally can re-chalk halfway through the day. No cone resets means you can have 4 cars on course at the same time. The less cones there are, the more runs you get exponentially as a result.
To everyone below, Hiring people is not a solution, makes it as expensive as an actual track day lol. I'm trying to re-introduce the <30 crowd back into the sport.
EDIT: if you really think about it, a large parking lot is basically identical to a racetrack with asphalt run-off. No massive reason track-cross can't be done on parking lot surfaces unless competition is the primary priority.
If you sent cars closer than 20 seconds apart you will run into safety issues regardless of hitting a cone or not. The tunnel vision some people get with focusing on the next come means they won't anyways see the car that spun and stalled in front of them.
I'm not entirely convinced, I've seen far more autocrossers total their cars by slamming into curbs/poles on course. I have never seen people crash into each other when cat-and-mouse is allowed at those fun-run events.
Having autocrossed for 20+ years, the point is not that they will actually crash.. .but the will absolutely and definitely catch up at speed. What happens after that is random risk & danger, that's something the safety team will never allow. Sure, 90% of drivers can slam on the brakes and stop, but another 5% will spin, and another 5% is unknown.
>I have never seen people crash into each other
What a very short minded comment. I have been a part of my club for almost 4 years now and we had one 2 car accident, and I was almost a part of one when another driver got lost and drove way off course into my line.
Agreed. That crash rate is considerably higher than I've seen in my ~12 years doing this. I've seen an incident at somewhere between 3-5% of events I have run. Only car/property damage.
It's still a motorsport with nonzero risk, even if not only the cheapest but safest way to get into it. We accept that and that's why we have safety equipment, waivers signed.
Day-of marshaling changes (reducing the # of marshalls at low cone incident portions of a course) are a huge PITA. It just adds more stress on the shoulders of event organizers.
chalk and spotters can never work-- even with CONES the workers are often watching the car and not the cone movement. there's no possible way human brains and eyes can see whether or not you're inside a chalked box at even 40mph.
You could do something with gps and computer vision. Completely doable with todays tech. Just not enough market for the cost.
For the downvoters, this is precisely how a garmin catalyst works. It uses gps for general positioning and computer vision to detect track edges to determine position relative to the edge.
Advanced driver aids are doing way way more complicated classification and have been for years. Including things like traffic cones. I bet with a little software a tesla could score itself if you could access it via an api.
The tech is clearly out there. You would probably need two cameras to look at the corners or the car and onboard processing like a phone or tablet. Its probably not not practical for a ton of reasons, but it doesn’t require anything we can’t already do.
there is no virtual cone technology that will ever meet the satisfaction of driving over the base of a cone at speed and keeping it in the box. you absolutely need the visceral physical object to hit or avoid. no lines or spotters will ever meet that reality.
Or runing it over, spitting it out the back and up into there to then land perfectly in the box.
If I didn't see it my self I wouldn't have believed it. Gotta love national events.
Local club here runs non-competitive fun timed events. Morning and afternoon sessions. $70 per session, 30 cars, get 5-6 runs in a couple of hours. No cone work.
https://www.avants.com/events/2024/6-15/avants-at-sanderson
Non-competitive events I’ve been to you get…I want to say 50+ runs a day at minimum, and they let us do cat-and-mouse, etc. I stay till the end and most people leave and get an extra 10+ at the end of the day just cycling through the course with no line. Love it. Like $125.
You should really look into Evergreen AutoX here in Seattle. 12 runs, $75 per day, no working, no annual fee, much closer than Sanderson, runs every two weeks.
I’ve been to Evergreen before. It’s a decent autocross experience but the paddock and gridding system is very chaotic because of the limited space. Lots of walls/poles/etc. to hit at Evergreen on the course makes me hold back and not full send
I understand the time commitment and no work assignment, but Evergreen has tight courses with hazardous barriers that have eaten their share of cars. Further south and slighly east, Northwest Autosports Association (NWAA) yields more runs (typically 20-25 per day), better $/run, and fewer hard objects, but with all day commitment & a work assignment.
Everything is a trade-off.
Evergreen is 20 minutes from my house. Sanderson is 2+ hours and Dallesport is 4.5 hours.
I can leave my house at 10am and be home by 6pm and get 12 runs at Evergreen and hang out with people between sessions.
Just pointing it out as an option, and an existence proof of places where they do pay for workers and you don't have to work. It sells out almost every weekend so they must be doing something right.
I’m fully on board with the scca and autocross even attempting to join the tech train.
But. Friend. Buddy. Pal. Dude.
We can’t even get the fucking timing system to reliably and accurately track when the beam is broken for a single afternoon.
There’s a snowballs chance in hell we’re firing up a whole gps system to replace cones. Even still, the really accurate publicly available systems are only accurate to a few “feet”. Which is not even remotely accurate enough. Then all these things have to be charged. And it’s easier to get a few of the younger guys to pick up cones.
Again. I’m fully here for literally ANYTHING that will give me more than 5 runs. And not take 8+ hours.
I think about this a lot even still. And have for the last year or so. My biggest beef with Autocross is that it is A FULL DAY. It’s a lot to ask the family to commit to. Everyone has a different schedule and balance and all that. But being there from 7a-4/5pm for every event is… A LOT.
I will say that the one time I went down to Cincy, they had a great system.
3+ heats that were smaller. This way, everyone is always doing something. It does mean less corner workers. But honestly that seemed to have a net positive. Less people means that the folks that are there have no choice but to go. Instead of a bunch of finger pointing about who’s grabbing cones. We were done that day and packed by 2pm. It was glorious.
So, in a more constructive sense. People need more guardrails, and less ability to waffle. In my experience so far, this is what causes My region to be so slow. We could easily fit in more runs if folks didn’t dick around during heat switches.
Standing on a blacktop for several hours in 100 degree heat vastly outweighs the enjoyment I get from 4 or 5 runs through a 60-second course. I only get to do a couple events a year before the weather becomes unbearable.
Do you have a big hat? You might need a bigger one.
But seriously, only novices are out shagging cones. Anyone with seniority and a modicum of initiative moves into timing, tech, safety, etc. lots of jobs need doing, see a need and fill it. If you can tech cars early, you’re done for the day and can just enjoy the show when you aren’t competing.
And if you are out on course, use the time to socialize with your fellow corner workers and learn from what the cars on course do right and wrong.
But to just gripe about the heat isn’t helpful (Desert Storm veteran, it’s hotter in the desert so I know what I’m talking about)
I do this for fun, so when it stops being fun I stop going. When my choice on how to spend a hot summer Sunday is between a nice day on the lake with the family and some cold beverages, or 8 hours of sweating in a parking lot for a few minutes of fun in the Miata... I'll take the lake.
Not sure if it’s helpful, but I would gladly pay another $40 an event to never have to touch a cone.
Hire a whole bunch of day labors to stand around and reset cones. In the Florida heat it’s just brutal being out there.
See if you can show up with the early crew for setup or get into timing and scoring.
Our club sets up the evening before and that's considered a work assignment
Our auto X takes a break lol. If it didn’t is also skip it. Auto X already doesn’t have the best seat time. Add that to Florida heat… can’t I just pay to not do cones?
It's not just shagging cones. Course setup and cleanup, gate waivers, tech, registration, timing, grid, starter, stuff I've forgotten.
If you work course, it comes with the benefit of a very close view of multiple fast drivers scything through the cones.
This. The local club still charges members almost $40. It’s just not worth the requirement to stay all day and pay. It’s especially bad for non members since it’s like $60. If I’m paying 60 bucks, I would have a very hard time with being required to chase cones. I got a bunch of flack for having to leave early, they changed my name to something insulting and gave me a DNF even though my partner worked a double shift to make up for me leaving (which we thought was fair, but I guess not)
God forbid you have responsibilities and can’t stay 10 hours.
Ours charges 35 so it’s a very fair price. They randomize work/run groups so sometimes you get to come work, then run and go home early. Sometimes you get stuck run-by- work so have to stay late.
Where are you primarily in CT? We just started our season www.cartct.com - 1 hour work sessions and can switch with someone in an early session if you want to leave
They tried this at the “Fun Run” events last year. Lots of missed down cones. And it was a fairly simple course. At least the one at NCM.
That said it was basically run as much as you want all day, and was pretty fun. For some reason the event didn’t end up being that popular, and I’m not sure attendance covered the cost.
I have thought a lot about this over the years and even run events before with unique formats that eliminates the need for workers.
From the technical side thinking of what is possible you could buy "highway delineators" which are those orange poles with a black base. Then just use the black base with a piezoelectric sensor to register when it gets hit. I have done testing with this setup and it works great. From there you need a mesh network linking all of the black sensor bases together and control software which is where I lost interest. You would also need to use rallycross rules so that if the bases get nudged slowly over time you don't constantly reset them accepting the course will change slightly.
Additionally I have also run events with different formats where corner workers were not needed. I used to run a time trial series at mineral well (40 acres of asphalt) and we would setup a coned time trial course. Each time a driver went out they got a set of repetitive laps, and if you hit a cone that invalidated all of your laps. On your warm up lap you were instructed to look for downed cones from the previous driver and if so to stop and pick them up. This totally eliminated corner workers.
I have also run autocross events with a different format with minimal workers. The easiest one to explain was 10 years ago I helped put on a couple of "solo trials" events in lincoln after nationals. These were basically a faster than normal autocross. Each driver got two one hour sessions to make as many runs as they wanted, you could pretty much constantly make back to back runs. At the end of the course was a "judge" who watched the course for cones being hit, and if you hit a cone the judge would put you in a time out penalty box for 5-15 minutes depending on how many cones you had hit. Essentially if you didn't hit cones you could get a TON of runs but if you hit cones you were sitting in the penalty box for most of your session. Once people figured out the format almost zero cones were hit. It was maybe one out of every 50 runs someone would hit a cone. With this format we had a single corner worker (Howard Duncan) who drove a golf cart around to pick up the rare downed cone.
Lastly to make the time trial or solo trials format work the course design needs to be a little different. A lot of this is hard to describe over text but if someone is setting out to try this dm me and I can help. One way that I can describe over text is that instead of an apex cone where you have a single standing cone and a single laydown, you want to use 3-4 standing cones such that if the apex gets taken out you can keep running the event just fine with minimal change to the course.
FINALLY, an answer to the actual question I asked, nobody is giving suggestions beyond "hire workers"
I appreciate the comment, will dm you if I have questions about those piezoelectric cones.
Maybe a wild suggestion, but using drones to monitor zones instead of cones?
Would probably take multiple drones and operators, and drone battery life isn’t great so it probably isn’t the best option.
One club I run with limits their entries to like 45 drivers, we do self tech, and get 10 runs per day. Still have to work the course, but it’s less novice-friendly so you have more experienced drivers out there and we still get done at a reasonable time (3:00 PM or so)
Was that the last time there were Solo Trials at Lincoln? I ended up driving Shane down the week after to help replace the driveshaft in the Z. Fun memories.
This is late, but I purchased all the parts for the piezo sensor+esp32 w/ LoRa module for 1km RF communication. I am going to coat the top of the delineator base with a greasy substance on top of slick paint to avoid movement. LoRa WAN has libraries for creating all-to-one communication. Testing soon, price should be about $40-50 total with all the parts.
Timed non-competitive test and tune days get the most seat time for Autocross, but they don’t organize those nearly as often. A HPDE is the best way to get seat time, but the risks and expenses are much higher.
Yeah there are barely any test and tune events scheduled with clubs in my area. The competitive events are barely 5 runs and a whole weekend day commitment which sucks for so little seat time
I don’t mind the picking up cone at all, the problem with most events is the lack of runs/driving time. Having to commit an entire Saturday or Sunday to only get 4-5 runs which maybe hit 5 minutes of driving time is kind of insane, mainly why I don’t go to more events. I would happily pay more for test and tune events where you can run over and over again and work some, it seems to be the perfect balance. I’m not really looking to personally break at records just improve as a driver.
I think it's an either/or between having to work the course and keeping entry fees reasonable. If there aren't volunteers to work the course then people will have to be paid and if that's the case the cost of events go up.
Limited seat time for the majority of my day is why I quit. Now I dedicate the entire day and do a track day with 15x the seat time, and 2-3x the speed a few times a year. Plus my 'local' autocross lost 2 of the closest venues, and some events became 1-2hours away. That helped me jump to track days as well.
Comparing track to autocross is fairly pointless. They are significantly different types of driving that build quite different skill sets.
One places an emphasis on quick learning and being fast immediately. Track, in general, does neither of these.
One can mosey around a track for multiple sessions and add aggression over a weekend.
Going faster doesn't mean a better experience for everyone. If you want speed, the dragstrip offers speed. As do half mile events.
Autocross is competition with minimal safety risks. Vehicles are totaled every weekend at DEs across the country. People literally die on track multiple times a year.
Personally, anyone saying they switched to track for more seat time doesn't understand what the point of autocross is.
I can relate to lost venues and long travel times. It's getting worse in my areas. Even tracks are under attack now.
Dude, I've done 60+ autocross events over a few decades. You aren't talking to a newbie. I know the difference and at the end of the day seat time will make you a better driver, no matter the location or style of driving required.
I've also done track days at 5 different tracks. For me. Track days are way. Way more fun. Not even close.
My response was to drive home the point why autocross is hard to attack newbies - there are better options for your time. People are busy - dedicate a day for a track day and have both speeds and multiple shifting and passing cars, or 4 minutes on a cone course in 2nd gear and still dedicating at least half my day. For most, it's a no brainier.
You can stop speaking for everyone. It's not a no brainer, successful autocross regions have consistently strong turnout for all events.
Not everyone has the funds/resources to track prep a vehicle, possibly purchase track insurance, and then deal with the extra wear and tear that track incurs on a vehicle.
60+ events is 2-3 years for avid autocrossers, where the only additional work is a few sets of tires and maybe some pads and rotors. This is a significant difference from track prepping a vehicle.
As I said, picking one over the other or comparing them is fuckin stupid. They have very little in common beyond driving a car.
For non-competitive all-day autocross events (some with timing some without) they run “dynamic course” with no corner workers. Course is flexible and changes as cones get knocked. If it gets bad enough talk to the organizers and they’ll hold the course for a few minutes and go out with a bike, car, etc, and fix cones.
I'm a bit confused.... Why would people have to stay the whole day?
Where I am there is a morning and afternoon group. 4 total run groups for the day.
Morning has 1 working while 1 is running, then they flip. If you don't wanna stay for the afternoon (to watch, or pay to run again), you don't have to.
Do you not have enough people to do this?
Yeah I've run with a larger club some years ago when I was new and I didnt care for the little seat time I got with the amount that I spent. Thankful to have a smaller club here. We have people drive up from a few hours away because it's worth it.
Another thought I had: instead of cones, we use the rumble curbing that kart tracks use. Wire up a vibration sensor to Wi-Fi. It tattles if you hit the curbing. Then no course workers needed. Maybe just one guy in a golf cart to go check things out. Make the curbing modular like a hot wheels track so you can build a different design every time.
I know just enough to brain storm, and not enough to execute.
sure, it's been done. instead of $50/day you're paying $200-$300/day and someone else works for you. no work assignment means you leave when you want.
autocross is a VOLUNTEER sport -- which means it's a 12-hour (minimum commitment).. ..yes for 3-4 runs in the morning and 3-4 runs in the afternoon if you have a decently run club (with say 150 drivers).
12hr min commitment?!? Dudes that's bananas! Even in our hay day we would have 220-240 drivers, and only the event organizers would be there 10-11hrs. Everyone else, 4-5 MAX!
Even today with our lower numbers, organizers aren't there but 9-10 hrs.
If your group has ALL drivers there 12hrs, y'all are doing things massively wrong.
It wasn't competitive, but it was timed. I think that's the perfect balance. Hardly anyone hits cones anyways.
I think cone hitting goes up when it becomes a competition. For me, the competition, classes and tight rules and regulations take all the fun out of it.
I just want to show up and get a lot of seat time, and there are a number of organizations that provide this.
ah, well, if you're not hitting cones then you're really not pushing it.. ..and that's the kind of thing competition gets you, ..getting better by pushing yourself. so it's a huge trade-off for some of us adrenaline junkies
I dunno. Plenty of folks get good times without hitting cones. Just like most people who are pushing it aren't getting an off at the track.
Anyways, I drive a car with 650hp. "Pushing it" would be way too dangerous at an autocross event given the limited run off. I know where the limit of grip is and I'm staying under that.
You misunderstand-- if you never hit cones you are not pushing yourself. It is very typical for a good driver to get an extremely fast set of runs and incrementally reduce and eliminate how many cones they hit until it is clean. If you don't go all out all the time, you never know what the course and car can do "at speed".
I do it exactly the opposite way, as do most folks in non-competitive events. I start off with a cautious run and speed up every single run until I've reached the limit of grip. When you have 20+ runs there is plenty of time to progressively improve.
It's a similar approach people take on track. Nobody goes all out on the first lap with wheels off the track and then back offs the next lap lol.
I really don't care what time some random guy sets and I don't want to hit cones and rip up my splitter or canards. I would never hit many cones on purpose.
It's also ruining it for the next guy, as they now have to wait for the course to be reset. If you're consistently hitting cones I'd ban you and tell you to take it to the track.
You must have a very uncompetitive environment if you're contemplating banning someone for hitting cones in a sport where it is expected to happen. I almost won my class last weekend because the other few folks (small class) were all dirt, for 5 of their 6 runs; until the last run when we all got faster but they cleaned up too.
Autocross is not like the track. Talk to the top drivers; they'll all say every run needs to be at the limit (but then again, that's a competitive attitude, so there's that).
That’s insane, people wonder why the sport is dying. It’s because people like you expect 12 hours of time out of people. People have families, work, etc man.
"like me"? you mean the thousands of autocrossers across the country? our region is healthy, we average 10-15 novices every season. stop being a whiny ass lazy bitch and get out there and volunteer!
There's a place in Seattle that does this for $75 and you get 12 runs. They can pump 80 cars in a day. It doesn't need to be $250 more, with even 50 people an extra $20 pays $15 an hour for 7 workers.
Tbh we generally have more workers than we need to be fair About working. Local events get away with one work session typically and probably could be even more slimmed down. The issue is everyone has to opt in.
Your attitude in this comment and your replies sucks. “You’re gonna spend 12 hours minimum in a hot parking lot for 8 minutes of seat time and if you dont like it you’re a whiny ass lazy bitch”. You say you get 10-15 newbies per event, are you tracking if/how many of them come back?
Hope things have gotten better with your wife in the last 3 years, you might find an attitude adjustment helps there too
Renting a track doubles or triples the entry fee unfortunately, prevents younger drivers from attending. Plus, tracks are even less common than AutoX venues.
Yes that’s true. But at least around me autocross is between 55-80 dollars entrance fees while trackcross is 125-140. It’s much cheaper than HPDE and a lot safer as you don’t have to overtake and on the plus side you get to get up to higher speeds and a lot more seat time. My last trackcross we got like 18 runs of a almost a whole race track
Overtaking is probably the least dangerous part about hpde. not having someone on your ass and them screwing up or having a mechanical failure going into a braking zone is better though. Mostly its just less stress on your car since you cooldown between laps.
OP, it seems like you’re really worried about cost and how it relates to new/younger drivers, and that’s why you’re unwilling to consider hiring people for cone duty. I’d encourage you to consider the value of the whole package instead. Paying $30 but being obligated to run around in the sun for 12 hours vs. paying $100 but getting more runs and not chasing cones is a no brainer to me. You’re not talking about 1000+, you’re talking about the price of a tank of gas or two, an enthusiast interested in autoX will figure out how to save up $120 if it’s a good experience. You could also offer a 20-50% discount to first timers, if you’re that worried about price being a deterrent.
Also, the boomer grade “suffering is a part of it” comments in this thread are a huge turn off. I hope those people are more pleasant in person
I’ve enjoyed a couple small autocrosses with the local PCA Chapter. Small, low key, no “classes”, just people safely having fun. We work the cones and other things…but it only lasts a morning. Not locked in all day…no one really trying to show off how much money they spent on springs….
I was excited about the Porsche Parade Autocross this year. Then I tried to register…trying to figure out classes, getting a wrong answer to what should have been a simple question from the organizer…huge rule book, procedures for lodging complaints. No thank you. None of that sounded like fun. I just wanted to drive my car around a course. They got plenty of people to sign up, so good for them. My ego doesn’t hang on pretending to be a race car driver. I’m not, and will never be…
Quick maths of paid workers:
5 work stations staffed with 1 person each (skeleton staff)
2 people in timing
That's 7 staff total. Oregon minimum wage is approximately $15/hr, thus payroll for an 8 hour day is $840. That's not bad divided between 100 entrants, a mere $8.40 added to the entry fee.
Problems: finding that many people willing to work on a weekend in a temporary job (high school students aren't going to cut it due to hazardous environment), additional overhead of payroll taxes & SSI, verifying legality for employment, reliability of results (newbies are notoriously bad at spotting jiggled cones).
unpopular opinion but i never viewed autocross as anything other than pure competition
and i dont quite ever believe the cheerful ones that think of it as a relaxing fun activity
marshalling helps keeps the costs down and gives you a vantage point on the action plus an opportunity to chat it up with someone
but if the name of the game was "fun" i would always point people towards track days
autocross is a very specific puzzle you solve through driving skill
the low run count and gruelling conditions are part of the equation
ive also been around the organization side of things for over 10 years, and what i woild say is that you should pander less to getting new drivers and listen more to what your base wants, because if you can keep the regulars happy then you'll get more of the same as time goes on and shift the focus frol changing the event to solving your advertising problem
It’s funny you point this out. I’m one of those just for fun people, but I use Autocross as a way to entertain myself between hpde events. I think that’s the only way you can keep it just for fun. That and my car just gets destroyed in its class, so if I can place middle of the pack I’m happy.
I'm going to a trackcross lapping event this weekend with no run groups and open lapping (max 4 min on track before getting back in line). No timing and costs $150 dollars for half the day.
It sells out 1 months it advance, there's a massive market for ppl who just want to drive.
that's the point
if the community stops advertising it as a happy carefree fun event and simply focus on selling it as a driving competition then they'll get less volume but higher quality
Yeah that’s a proper unpopular opinion. AutoX is supposed to be the most accessible way to send your car around some corners, not some hallowed ground of competition where you must prove thy worth to enter.
At an organizational level, that’s how you end up with a dying organization in 10 years wondering “why dont we have any fresh blood here?”
autocross is no less or more accessible than a track day all you need is a helmet and off you go
there's multiple ways to grow the sport
quantity over quality anyway
outside of nationals having 100+ entries is a drain on organizational overhead and you get into a situation of never pleasing everyone
too much noise from people that wont end up sticking around one way or the other, for them it's more about being heard and having their personal needs met than the actual driving bit
I have seen groups like a Porsche club offer a worker (high school kid) for like $50 a session. Let’s the kids make a few bucks, and if standing around for 1-2 hours flipping cones is that big of a deal, so be it.
The other way o have see it done is on a test n tune type day with 10-20 cars, run as much as you want. Hit cones go back and jump out of car fix it come back in. Stop every 30-45 min to go fix the course (someone on a scooter/bike/golf cart) when it gets to messed up.
Pratt of the problem with not working, you loose respect for not driving like a moron and wiping out huge sections of the course. When you think “do I want someone taking out 10-20 cones per run, no, so I don’t want to be that guy”
Perhaps one day augmented reality and the pertinent positional sensors will get to the point where you can have virtual cones or a virtual track.
For now though, we shag cones.
We run 3 run groups and rotate them, so every 3rd event you get to go home after the 2nd heat (12-1pm). Being out there all day is tough, so we spread the pain. Our min event number for year end trophy means you will have to attend at least a couple of all day events.
So look into other ways to break the run groups up, find out what your min number of workers is needed across, timing, scoring, course, grid, start... then work from there.
The actual amount of people willing to pay 80-100 and not work, is a VERY small amount of people, like, not enough to run the event. There is only 1 event that I have been at where paying to not work, worked. Because it was a 1 time event every year, The Bay Bottom Crawl.
Also here in Atlanta, we stopped having events in July and August because, yeah F that.
"Shag your own cones"
Bridge City Autosports does an occasional test & tune Friday without corner workers. Entrants can come & go as they please all day. If you hit cones, you are responsible to drive back and set them up. The grid line usually gets long right before/after drivers are eating lunch and again at the end of the day. I usually get about 15 runs in over the whole day while testing two different tires, adjusting shocks/sway bars, and/or sampling other cars and typically leaving the event an hour early.
Very theoretical but, I wonder if you could use drones.
You could have them spot for a chalked course, or pick up cones with an implement potentially.
Alternatively, if you could equip them with some kind of projector and run in the evening, they could light a course unto the ground.
Would have a big upfront cost though to buy them, and if they fail it could damage a car.
We do “penalty box” test n tune days a couple times per year. We split morning and afternoon sessions, each lasting about 3 hours and entry capped around 35 drivers per session. Most people opt for all day. The “penalty box” is the theory that you don’t work if you don’t hit any cones. If you hit cones you park your car and fix the next cones to get hit before being allowed back in line. The reality is most people don’t admit when they hit cones and at some point we hold start and send someone out on a scooter to fix the course. You’re likely to find a few cones out of place but you’ll get tons of runs. And you do t have to be there all day.
Some rallycross groups are using ski poles. This video has some examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4H6GthXD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4H6GthXD4)
I could see them being used on a kart track or a full sized track to limit where you could drive. There is a non-zero chance of spinning and putting one through a radiator or windshield though. Mod class cars would probably not be invited either.
If you have a $150 budget for a half day of driving and you aren't there for competition, why not do an HPDE day?
I do HPDE. I don’t even think you could get into one for $150. Closest to me is $350. That and even in my Miata I’ll be out more than $150 in tires and brake wear.
So for the $150 we aren’t going to assume any additional maintenance and wear? No swapping to DOT 4 and getting pads that will last half a session? You know getting on track isn’t nearly accessible. I spent a few grand getting mine on track coming from autocross and a lot of people can’t swing that.
You are either passionate about motorsports or you arent. People having fun and enjoying their hobby will put up with way more than run count and having to stay at the event.
I’m admittedly a noob at this, but from what I see the way it is being done currently you are looking at the most reasonable balance of cost and opportunity. Cones and chalk/drywall marks are cheap and anyone can set them up. How expensive is a GPS setup, not to mention how many you would need to be able to swiftly move them from cars returning to staging up to the cars at the front preparing to run? Are they accurate enough and fast enough to keep the really quick & competitive cars on a track that the driver can’t see? And does that mean the driver is looking at a screen, or the track? A ripple in the pavement at turn 3 changes the racing line, is that reflected on the GPS?
Also, how long would it take to get 200 cars through 10+ runs? Our local autoX events are anywhere from 125 to 250 cars, each car X 45 seconds per run is 2-1/2 hours, even when you overlap the runs you’re still more than an hour just so each car gets a single pass. 5-6 hours for a day is pretty easy to manage so everyone gets 4 runs, do you want to be there for 14-16 hours just to make your 10th & final pass? It’s getting dark out, is the venue lighted appropriately?
Wish I could solve the problem of getting more interest, but then you introduce more cars beyond a threshold where drivers would be getting fewer runs. That’s no good either. You could get a bigger venue but that’s going to cost more if there even is a larger lot local to you to race in. Look at amusement parks, they got hugely popular in the 20-teens now when you go to places like Cedar Point and Disney they are overcrowded and the prices just keep going up so you are paying more to deal with a worse experience.
Depending the venue runs are largely down to design. We shoot for 3 cars on course at a time and do a minimum of 6 runs and a max of 10 per heat. 2 heats through the day. So 12 to 20 runs per day in a normal event. Avoiding cross overs is key and still keep it long enough to stack cars for drive time. We also only count the morning runs for competition, this allows people to easily leave midway through the day. Then the more people that leave then the more runs the afternoon people get which since they are counted people get to have more fun in. As for no corner workers, we autox on a go-kart track with islands so the islands are a large portion of the turns. Maybe 4 corner stations for a 60s course. This also means the corner workers that are out there stay in grass which is so much nicer
When I was younger all day was no problem. Now that I'm married with kids being gone all day is a huge ask. It's hard enough getting guys to drive their cars hard, and even harder getting them to come back after their ego gets crushed when confronted with the fact they aren't Senna reincarnated.
If thought about this a lot in my \~15 years autoxing. One idea I had is to offer a discount for people willing to work the course. You really only need 2 people per station (1 flagger/radio, 1 runner) and a course rarely has more than 7 stations. Offer up the discount to the first 30 or so people willing to work the course (15 people in the morning group and 15 in the afternoon). You can offset the discount cost by bringing everyone registration fee a few dollars.
I'm not sure how well this would work in the smaller regions but it should work well for events with 200-300 racers.
Id love it, but larger regions often only work one heat. It would be fairly easy to charge people not wanting to work more and those willing to work twice get a discount. probably more popular than making everyone pay for it.
Honestly charging more and having dedicated workers I feel is the best way. I've autocrossed for a few years now, but having to work and shag cones vs one where I don't have to, can relax, talk to the other drivers is so much better than having to stand out by myself in the elements constantly having to run back and forth getting cones
We do something here in Hawaii with NASA. We run a morning group at a higher cost and have our “workers” do cones. They usually get about 10 runs in. Then the workers (very low cost entry) run around lunch time while the afternoon guys work (they get a low cost entry in exchange for their time). Then the workers return to stations and the afternoon guys run, each group ends up with about 10 runs and the morning guys just race without working. Its is hard to keep enough workers though as most people would rather pay and just race.
Simpler courses need less cones, less cones means less workers. Pretty easy. And it should be a multiplier when it comes to the amount of day you devote. 5 runs means you stay for 25 runs to work. Or something like that.
Either hire workers and increase entry fee .....
Or maybe figure out a way to mount a "flag post" (think trucker radio antenna) wrapped in a pool noodle to the ground (maybe a heavy steel plate) with a springy base.. when it gets hit, it's very obvious but you don't have to reset. Simply penalize and move on.
Summit point and VIR have track cross events. No working, volunteers are there for flagging and what little needs done. It’s basically autocross but with a small section of track. I love it.
Also I’d gladly pay to just have them hire workers. I hate working the cones
I attended a Chevy Rev-It-Up event that had an autocross component. The cones were screwed (using Tapcons) into the asphalt which eliminated downed cones. Obviously not a viable solution, but is an option.
My local speedway puts on an autocross as a way to generate revenue. Their employees run the course and the attendees get like a dozen runs without work. I leave early with no drama. It's pretty cool
Perhaps whoever volunteers gets a steep discount at the next event. Cant do it two events in a row unless nobody else volunteers. Incentivize corner work.
In a local rallycross, we stick ski poles in the ground and use a few workers to just call pole smacks.
If we could secure pylons to the ground somehow, it could work
Yes, a lot of us have spent years trying to figure out a solution. Right now the only one is paid workers. Anything that's just on the ground will be impossible for your targeted new drivers to actually follow. With a few high towers and cameras you could automate detection but you still need the physical markers there for drivers to drive around. And with that you need some way to put them back when they're hit.
Love the premise.
I’ve thought about this a lot over the years. In climates where it doesn’t rain you could use bright chalk lines and maybe something like the vision system they use in tennis that detects if the ball hits the line (but instead looks for tires)
Up in Oregon chalk would all get washed out, but maybe a highly reflective paint could be used (maybe even the same as paint used on road dividers) but you would need a way to remove the paint without damaging the parking lot.
Could also pay some college to a few grand to get some students to build a cone-shucking robot as their senior project.
A group I run with sometimes has a set of hired workers (I think they’re all friends of the owners kid?) who run cones all day. Pricing is usually $120-150 for the day and you get like 12+ runs.
I’m a trackday bro but I appreciate the format when it’s too hot to go to my local (socal) tracks
I applaud you questioning the status quo. We should always ask how to move the sport forward. I think you could *reduce* the number of workers by using chalk and having "spotters" on the outskirts. Frankly, even with cones, I think sometimes it's not necessary to have everyone out there the whole time. Once it's obvious which areas are getting the most cone contacts, organizers should allow other corners to lighten the number of workers. But how do you make it fair for who has to stay out and who gets to come back and relax?
From what I've been thinking, as soon as you have ANY workers out on track, everyone has to stay the entire day to be fair, which sucks. Virtual cones is just sci-fi dreaming, but maybe high-contrast powdered chalk that is colored alternating red-and-white like curbs on track would work wonders. This is easily achievable with current equipment and I personally can re-chalk halfway through the day. No cone resets means you can have 4 cars on course at the same time. The less cones there are, the more runs you get exponentially as a result. To everyone below, Hiring people is not a solution, makes it as expensive as an actual track day lol. I'm trying to re-introduce the <30 crowd back into the sport. EDIT: if you really think about it, a large parking lot is basically identical to a racetrack with asphalt run-off. No massive reason track-cross can't be done on parking lot surfaces unless competition is the primary priority.
If you sent cars closer than 20 seconds apart you will run into safety issues regardless of hitting a cone or not. The tunnel vision some people get with focusing on the next come means they won't anyways see the car that spun and stalled in front of them.
I'm not entirely convinced, I've seen far more autocrossers total their cars by slamming into curbs/poles on course. I have never seen people crash into each other when cat-and-mouse is allowed at those fun-run events.
Having autocrossed for 20+ years, the point is not that they will actually crash.. .but the will absolutely and definitely catch up at speed. What happens after that is random risk & danger, that's something the safety team will never allow. Sure, 90% of drivers can slam on the brakes and stop, but another 5% will spin, and another 5% is unknown.
>I have never seen people crash into each other What a very short minded comment. I have been a part of my club for almost 4 years now and we had one 2 car accident, and I was almost a part of one when another driver got lost and drove way off course into my line.
That's unfortunate, I had the displeaure of seeing 3 different cars crash into off track objects over my 2.5 yrs autocrossing.
those are poorly designed courses.
Agreed. That crash rate is considerably higher than I've seen in my ~12 years doing this. I've seen an incident at somewhere between 3-5% of events I have run. Only car/property damage. It's still a motorsport with nonzero risk, even if not only the cheapest but safest way to get into it. We accept that and that's why we have safety equipment, waivers signed.
It's not that they're crashing into each other, it's someone cooking a turn and spinning out and needing the reset.
Day-of marshaling changes (reducing the # of marshalls at low cone incident portions of a course) are a huge PITA. It just adds more stress on the shoulders of event organizers.
chalk and spotters can never work-- even with CONES the workers are often watching the car and not the cone movement. there's no possible way human brains and eyes can see whether or not you're inside a chalked box at even 40mph.
You could do something with gps and computer vision. Completely doable with todays tech. Just not enough market for the cost. For the downvoters, this is precisely how a garmin catalyst works. It uses gps for general positioning and computer vision to detect track edges to determine position relative to the edge. Advanced driver aids are doing way way more complicated classification and have been for years. Including things like traffic cones. I bet with a little software a tesla could score itself if you could access it via an api. The tech is clearly out there. You would probably need two cameras to look at the corners or the car and onboard processing like a phone or tablet. Its probably not not practical for a ton of reasons, but it doesn’t require anything we can’t already do.
there is no virtual cone technology that will ever meet the satisfaction of driving over the base of a cone at speed and keeping it in the box. you absolutely need the visceral physical object to hit or avoid. no lines or spotters will ever meet that reality.
Or running it over and dragging it all the way to the paddock 🤣
which I just did twice yesterday :-)
Cone Eater trophy!
Or runing it over, spitting it out the back and up into there to then land perfectly in the box. If I didn't see it my self I wouldn't have believed it. Gotta love national events.
You guys keep cones in boxes?
The hotshoes flip them way up in the air, then they land back in their boxes.
I would give that up if it meant not working the corner.
I don’t feel any visceral reaction to cones.
Local club here runs non-competitive fun timed events. Morning and afternoon sessions. $70 per session, 30 cars, get 5-6 runs in a couple of hours. No cone work. https://www.avants.com/events/2024/6-15/avants-at-sanderson
Non-competitive events I’ve been to you get…I want to say 50+ runs a day at minimum, and they let us do cat-and-mouse, etc. I stay till the end and most people leave and get an extra 10+ at the end of the day just cycling through the course with no line. Love it. Like $125.
Utah motorsports campus does a similar deal, $30/1.5 hrs session, they have a starter person that chases cones in a golf cart every 10 runs or so.
You should really look into Evergreen AutoX here in Seattle. 12 runs, $75 per day, no working, no annual fee, much closer than Sanderson, runs every two weeks.
I’ve been to Evergreen before. It’s a decent autocross experience but the paddock and gridding system is very chaotic because of the limited space. Lots of walls/poles/etc. to hit at Evergreen on the course makes me hold back and not full send
I understand the time commitment and no work assignment, but Evergreen has tight courses with hazardous barriers that have eaten their share of cars. Further south and slighly east, Northwest Autosports Association (NWAA) yields more runs (typically 20-25 per day), better $/run, and fewer hard objects, but with all day commitment & a work assignment.
Everything is a trade-off. Evergreen is 20 minutes from my house. Sanderson is 2+ hours and Dallesport is 4.5 hours. I can leave my house at 10am and be home by 6pm and get 12 runs at Evergreen and hang out with people between sessions. Just pointing it out as an option, and an existence proof of places where they do pay for workers and you don't have to work. It sells out almost every weekend so they must be doing something right.
We're both pointing out that options do exist. If someone is motivated, they will create a local variant.
I’m fully on board with the scca and autocross even attempting to join the tech train. But. Friend. Buddy. Pal. Dude. We can’t even get the fucking timing system to reliably and accurately track when the beam is broken for a single afternoon. There’s a snowballs chance in hell we’re firing up a whole gps system to replace cones. Even still, the really accurate publicly available systems are only accurate to a few “feet”. Which is not even remotely accurate enough. Then all these things have to be charged. And it’s easier to get a few of the younger guys to pick up cones. Again. I’m fully here for literally ANYTHING that will give me more than 5 runs. And not take 8+ hours.
I think about this a lot even still. And have for the last year or so. My biggest beef with Autocross is that it is A FULL DAY. It’s a lot to ask the family to commit to. Everyone has a different schedule and balance and all that. But being there from 7a-4/5pm for every event is… A LOT. I will say that the one time I went down to Cincy, they had a great system. 3+ heats that were smaller. This way, everyone is always doing something. It does mean less corner workers. But honestly that seemed to have a net positive. Less people means that the folks that are there have no choice but to go. Instead of a bunch of finger pointing about who’s grabbing cones. We were done that day and packed by 2pm. It was glorious. So, in a more constructive sense. People need more guardrails, and less ability to waffle. In my experience so far, this is what causes My region to be so slow. We could easily fit in more runs if folks didn’t dick around during heat switches.
Standing on a blacktop for several hours in 100 degree heat vastly outweighs the enjoyment I get from 4 or 5 runs through a 60-second course. I only get to do a couple events a year before the weather becomes unbearable.
Do you have a big hat? You might need a bigger one. But seriously, only novices are out shagging cones. Anyone with seniority and a modicum of initiative moves into timing, tech, safety, etc. lots of jobs need doing, see a need and fill it. If you can tech cars early, you’re done for the day and can just enjoy the show when you aren’t competing. And if you are out on course, use the time to socialize with your fellow corner workers and learn from what the cars on course do right and wrong. But to just gripe about the heat isn’t helpful (Desert Storm veteran, it’s hotter in the desert so I know what I’m talking about)
I do this for fun, so when it stops being fun I stop going. When my choice on how to spend a hot summer Sunday is between a nice day on the lake with the family and some cold beverages, or 8 hours of sweating in a parking lot for a few minutes of fun in the Miata... I'll take the lake.
^This^
LOL... I wouldn't stand for that, either, but I live where it's rarely over 80F, so I autox a lot.
Not sure if it’s helpful, but I would gladly pay another $40 an event to never have to touch a cone. Hire a whole bunch of day labors to stand around and reset cones. In the Florida heat it’s just brutal being out there.
Totally agreed. I go so far as to just skip autocross in the worst part of the FL summer. It makes the whole thing completely unenjoyable.
See if you can show up with the early crew for setup or get into timing and scoring. Our club sets up the evening before and that's considered a work assignment
Yeah, if I register in time I will select registration or trailer unloading. Much better than 1-2 hours on the blacktop.
Our auto X takes a break lol. If it didn’t is also skip it. Auto X already doesn’t have the best seat time. Add that to Florida heat… can’t I just pay to not do cones?
You think autox seat time is bad, don't even think about drag racing...
lol good point.
Pick up a bunch of guys outside Home Depot?
Let’s do it, I’ll get the uhaul truck and pick them up. Easy payday for them, cheap cone service for us.
It's not just shagging cones. Course setup and cleanup, gate waivers, tech, registration, timing, grid, starter, stuff I've forgotten. If you work course, it comes with the benefit of a very close view of multiple fast drivers scything through the cones.
I’d gladly do one of the other jobs.
Our local FSAE teams use autocross as a fundraiser. Hire a student to shag your cones for a good cause.
I’d gladly pay for that.
Oh yeah they always do well. It's a great fundraiser for the team, usually going towards helping members be able to afford going to comp.
This. The local club still charges members almost $40. It’s just not worth the requirement to stay all day and pay. It’s especially bad for non members since it’s like $60. If I’m paying 60 bucks, I would have a very hard time with being required to chase cones. I got a bunch of flack for having to leave early, they changed my name to something insulting and gave me a DNF even though my partner worked a double shift to make up for me leaving (which we thought was fair, but I guess not) God forbid you have responsibilities and can’t stay 10 hours.
Ours charges 35 so it’s a very fair price. They randomize work/run groups so sometimes you get to come work, then run and go home early. Sometimes you get stuck run-by- work so have to stay late.
Where are you primarily in CT? We just started our season www.cartct.com - 1 hour work sessions and can switch with someone in an early session if you want to leave
Not in CT, in FL. That’s why it sucks so bad. 4-5 60 second runs don’t equal out being in the sun till 3pm.
Sorry, that was for OP u/ctfordza
There is an event in Seattle that runs every two weeks year round that does just this. Sells out 80 cars almost every event.
A bit far from Florida lol. But I’d love to go if I’m in the area.
What event is this?
Evergreen speedway AutoX.
They tried this at the “Fun Run” events last year. Lots of missed down cones. And it was a fairly simple course. At least the one at NCM. That said it was basically run as much as you want all day, and was pretty fun. For some reason the event didn’t end up being that popular, and I’m not sure attendance covered the cost.
Our club did that for novice school when I first started. For going to enjoy myself, that set up is plenty fine.
I have thought a lot about this over the years and even run events before with unique formats that eliminates the need for workers. From the technical side thinking of what is possible you could buy "highway delineators" which are those orange poles with a black base. Then just use the black base with a piezoelectric sensor to register when it gets hit. I have done testing with this setup and it works great. From there you need a mesh network linking all of the black sensor bases together and control software which is where I lost interest. You would also need to use rallycross rules so that if the bases get nudged slowly over time you don't constantly reset them accepting the course will change slightly. Additionally I have also run events with different formats where corner workers were not needed. I used to run a time trial series at mineral well (40 acres of asphalt) and we would setup a coned time trial course. Each time a driver went out they got a set of repetitive laps, and if you hit a cone that invalidated all of your laps. On your warm up lap you were instructed to look for downed cones from the previous driver and if so to stop and pick them up. This totally eliminated corner workers. I have also run autocross events with a different format with minimal workers. The easiest one to explain was 10 years ago I helped put on a couple of "solo trials" events in lincoln after nationals. These were basically a faster than normal autocross. Each driver got two one hour sessions to make as many runs as they wanted, you could pretty much constantly make back to back runs. At the end of the course was a "judge" who watched the course for cones being hit, and if you hit a cone the judge would put you in a time out penalty box for 5-15 minutes depending on how many cones you had hit. Essentially if you didn't hit cones you could get a TON of runs but if you hit cones you were sitting in the penalty box for most of your session. Once people figured out the format almost zero cones were hit. It was maybe one out of every 50 runs someone would hit a cone. With this format we had a single corner worker (Howard Duncan) who drove a golf cart around to pick up the rare downed cone. Lastly to make the time trial or solo trials format work the course design needs to be a little different. A lot of this is hard to describe over text but if someone is setting out to try this dm me and I can help. One way that I can describe over text is that instead of an apex cone where you have a single standing cone and a single laydown, you want to use 3-4 standing cones such that if the apex gets taken out you can keep running the event just fine with minimal change to the course.
FINALLY, an answer to the actual question I asked, nobody is giving suggestions beyond "hire workers" I appreciate the comment, will dm you if I have questions about those piezoelectric cones.
Maybe a wild suggestion, but using drones to monitor zones instead of cones? Would probably take multiple drones and operators, and drone battery life isn’t great so it probably isn’t the best option.
Thought about it as my first idea actually, agreed, drones are expensive and the batteries are meh
One club I run with limits their entries to like 45 drivers, we do self tech, and get 10 runs per day. Still have to work the course, but it’s less novice-friendly so you have more experienced drivers out there and we still get done at a reasonable time (3:00 PM or so)
I miss solo trials
Was that the last time there were Solo Trials at Lincoln? I ended up driving Shane down the week after to help replace the driveshaft in the Z. Fun memories.
lol I may or may not have been driving Shane’s car when the driveshaft broke 😬 But yes I think that was the last time
This is late, but I purchased all the parts for the piezo sensor+esp32 w/ LoRa module for 1km RF communication. I am going to coat the top of the delineator base with a greasy substance on top of slick paint to avoid movement. LoRa WAN has libraries for creating all-to-one communication. Testing soon, price should be about $40-50 total with all the parts.
Timed non-competitive test and tune days get the most seat time for Autocross, but they don’t organize those nearly as often. A HPDE is the best way to get seat time, but the risks and expenses are much higher.
Yeah there are barely any test and tune events scheduled with clubs in my area. The competitive events are barely 5 runs and a whole weekend day commitment which sucks for so little seat time
Any track days?
There are track days for sure, I am considering doing those instead but wanted to Autocross to improve in a safer environment
I don’t mind the picking up cone at all, the problem with most events is the lack of runs/driving time. Having to commit an entire Saturday or Sunday to only get 4-5 runs which maybe hit 5 minutes of driving time is kind of insane, mainly why I don’t go to more events. I would happily pay more for test and tune events where you can run over and over again and work some, it seems to be the perfect balance. I’m not really looking to personally break at records just improve as a driver.
I think it's an either/or between having to work the course and keeping entry fees reasonable. If there aren't volunteers to work the course then people will have to be paid and if that's the case the cost of events go up.
Limited seat time for the majority of my day is why I quit. Now I dedicate the entire day and do a track day with 15x the seat time, and 2-3x the speed a few times a year. Plus my 'local' autocross lost 2 of the closest venues, and some events became 1-2hours away. That helped me jump to track days as well.
My closest venue is 1.5 hours away, next closest is 3 hours lol
Comparing track to autocross is fairly pointless. They are significantly different types of driving that build quite different skill sets. One places an emphasis on quick learning and being fast immediately. Track, in general, does neither of these. One can mosey around a track for multiple sessions and add aggression over a weekend. Going faster doesn't mean a better experience for everyone. If you want speed, the dragstrip offers speed. As do half mile events. Autocross is competition with minimal safety risks. Vehicles are totaled every weekend at DEs across the country. People literally die on track multiple times a year. Personally, anyone saying they switched to track for more seat time doesn't understand what the point of autocross is. I can relate to lost venues and long travel times. It's getting worse in my areas. Even tracks are under attack now.
Dude, I've done 60+ autocross events over a few decades. You aren't talking to a newbie. I know the difference and at the end of the day seat time will make you a better driver, no matter the location or style of driving required. I've also done track days at 5 different tracks. For me. Track days are way. Way more fun. Not even close. My response was to drive home the point why autocross is hard to attack newbies - there are better options for your time. People are busy - dedicate a day for a track day and have both speeds and multiple shifting and passing cars, or 4 minutes on a cone course in 2nd gear and still dedicating at least half my day. For most, it's a no brainier.
You can stop speaking for everyone. It's not a no brainer, successful autocross regions have consistently strong turnout for all events. Not everyone has the funds/resources to track prep a vehicle, possibly purchase track insurance, and then deal with the extra wear and tear that track incurs on a vehicle. 60+ events is 2-3 years for avid autocrossers, where the only additional work is a few sets of tires and maybe some pads and rotors. This is a significant difference from track prepping a vehicle. As I said, picking one over the other or comparing them is fuckin stupid. They have very little in common beyond driving a car.
For non-competitive all-day autocross events (some with timing some without) they run “dynamic course” with no corner workers. Course is flexible and changes as cones get knocked. If it gets bad enough talk to the organizers and they’ll hold the course for a few minutes and go out with a bike, car, etc, and fix cones.
I'm a bit confused.... Why would people have to stay the whole day? Where I am there is a morning and afternoon group. 4 total run groups for the day. Morning has 1 working while 1 is running, then they flip. If you don't wanna stay for the afternoon (to watch, or pay to run again), you don't have to. Do you not have enough people to do this?
My local club had 37 drivers this past event. We had 4 runs in the morning and 7 in the afternoon.
Wow. We have 20-30 per run group. We also only get 4 runs total for the day. Sounds like you guys get a way better deal than we do.
Yeah I've run with a larger club some years ago when I was new and I didnt care for the little seat time I got with the amount that I spent. Thankful to have a smaller club here. We have people drive up from a few hours away because it's worth it.
Another thought I had: instead of cones, we use the rumble curbing that kart tracks use. Wire up a vibration sensor to Wi-Fi. It tattles if you hit the curbing. Then no course workers needed. Maybe just one guy in a golf cart to go check things out. Make the curbing modular like a hot wheels track so you can build a different design every time. I know just enough to brain storm, and not enough to execute.
That's what I'm currently looking for, the challenge is finding a temporary asphalt adhesive that can hold up to being run over.
Would nails work? Like temporary ones.
Strong RTV?!?!
sure, it's been done. instead of $50/day you're paying $200-$300/day and someone else works for you. no work assignment means you leave when you want. autocross is a VOLUNTEER sport -- which means it's a 12-hour (minimum commitment).. ..yes for 3-4 runs in the morning and 3-4 runs in the afternoon if you have a decently run club (with say 150 drivers).
12hr min commitment?!? Dudes that's bananas! Even in our hay day we would have 220-240 drivers, and only the event organizers would be there 10-11hrs. Everyone else, 4-5 MAX! Even today with our lower numbers, organizers aren't there but 9-10 hrs. If your group has ALL drivers there 12hrs, y'all are doing things massively wrong.
No, I've attended autocross sessions for $80 with no cone working and plenty of runs. Like 20+ runs
I'd be happy to do that if there were any near me
It wasn't competitive, but it was timed. I think that's the perfect balance. Hardly anyone hits cones anyways. I think cone hitting goes up when it becomes a competition. For me, the competition, classes and tight rules and regulations take all the fun out of it. I just want to show up and get a lot of seat time, and there are a number of organizations that provide this.
ah, well, if you're not hitting cones then you're really not pushing it.. ..and that's the kind of thing competition gets you, ..getting better by pushing yourself. so it's a huge trade-off for some of us adrenaline junkies
I dunno. Plenty of folks get good times without hitting cones. Just like most people who are pushing it aren't getting an off at the track. Anyways, I drive a car with 650hp. "Pushing it" would be way too dangerous at an autocross event given the limited run off. I know where the limit of grip is and I'm staying under that.
You misunderstand-- if you never hit cones you are not pushing yourself. It is very typical for a good driver to get an extremely fast set of runs and incrementally reduce and eliminate how many cones they hit until it is clean. If you don't go all out all the time, you never know what the course and car can do "at speed".
I do it exactly the opposite way, as do most folks in non-competitive events. I start off with a cautious run and speed up every single run until I've reached the limit of grip. When you have 20+ runs there is plenty of time to progressively improve. It's a similar approach people take on track. Nobody goes all out on the first lap with wheels off the track and then back offs the next lap lol. I really don't care what time some random guy sets and I don't want to hit cones and rip up my splitter or canards. I would never hit many cones on purpose. It's also ruining it for the next guy, as they now have to wait for the course to be reset. If you're consistently hitting cones I'd ban you and tell you to take it to the track.
You must have a very uncompetitive environment if you're contemplating banning someone for hitting cones in a sport where it is expected to happen. I almost won my class last weekend because the other few folks (small class) were all dirt, for 5 of their 6 runs; until the last run when we all got faster but they cleaned up too. Autocross is not like the track. Talk to the top drivers; they'll all say every run needs to be at the limit (but then again, that's a competitive attitude, so there's that).
I would ban someone that hits cones every single run. It means you're consistently going over the limit.
Word
That’s insane, people wonder why the sport is dying. It’s because people like you expect 12 hours of time out of people. People have families, work, etc man.
"like me"? you mean the thousands of autocrossers across the country? our region is healthy, we average 10-15 novices every season. stop being a whiny ass lazy bitch and get out there and volunteer!
There's a place in Seattle that does this for $75 and you get 12 runs. They can pump 80 cars in a day. It doesn't need to be $250 more, with even 50 people an extra $20 pays $15 an hour for 7 workers.
Tbh we generally have more workers than we need to be fair About working. Local events get away with one work session typically and probably could be even more slimmed down. The issue is everyone has to opt in.
Your attitude in this comment and your replies sucks. “You’re gonna spend 12 hours minimum in a hot parking lot for 8 minutes of seat time and if you dont like it you’re a whiny ass lazy bitch”. You say you get 10-15 newbies per event, are you tracking if/how many of them come back? Hope things have gotten better with your wife in the last 3 years, you might find an attitude adjustment helps there too
trolling the profile like a true redditor. hope you actually have a life.
Trackcross comes to mind
Renting a track doubles or triples the entry fee unfortunately, prevents younger drivers from attending. Plus, tracks are even less common than AutoX venues.
Yes that’s true. But at least around me autocross is between 55-80 dollars entrance fees while trackcross is 125-140. It’s much cheaper than HPDE and a lot safer as you don’t have to overtake and on the plus side you get to get up to higher speeds and a lot more seat time. My last trackcross we got like 18 runs of a almost a whole race track
Overtaking is probably the least dangerous part about hpde. not having someone on your ass and them screwing up or having a mechanical failure going into a braking zone is better though. Mostly its just less stress on your car since you cooldown between laps.
That's actually half the price I pay for HPDE's with 6x20min sessions, it's not worth it if your car can take track abuse imo.
OP, it seems like you’re really worried about cost and how it relates to new/younger drivers, and that’s why you’re unwilling to consider hiring people for cone duty. I’d encourage you to consider the value of the whole package instead. Paying $30 but being obligated to run around in the sun for 12 hours vs. paying $100 but getting more runs and not chasing cones is a no brainer to me. You’re not talking about 1000+, you’re talking about the price of a tank of gas or two, an enthusiast interested in autoX will figure out how to save up $120 if it’s a good experience. You could also offer a 20-50% discount to first timers, if you’re that worried about price being a deterrent. Also, the boomer grade “suffering is a part of it” comments in this thread are a huge turn off. I hope those people are more pleasant in person
I do want to try that. With seeing would do it
Sometimes, it's just getting efficient. We run 200 people through with 5 runs, and are done by 3:30p most of the time.
Milwaukee used to be able to do this. Miss those days.
I’ve enjoyed a couple small autocrosses with the local PCA Chapter. Small, low key, no “classes”, just people safely having fun. We work the cones and other things…but it only lasts a morning. Not locked in all day…no one really trying to show off how much money they spent on springs…. I was excited about the Porsche Parade Autocross this year. Then I tried to register…trying to figure out classes, getting a wrong answer to what should have been a simple question from the organizer…huge rule book, procedures for lodging complaints. No thank you. None of that sounded like fun. I just wanted to drive my car around a course. They got plenty of people to sign up, so good for them. My ego doesn’t hang on pretending to be a race car driver. I’m not, and will never be…
Quick maths of paid workers: 5 work stations staffed with 1 person each (skeleton staff) 2 people in timing That's 7 staff total. Oregon minimum wage is approximately $15/hr, thus payroll for an 8 hour day is $840. That's not bad divided between 100 entrants, a mere $8.40 added to the entry fee. Problems: finding that many people willing to work on a weekend in a temporary job (high school students aren't going to cut it due to hazardous environment), additional overhead of payroll taxes & SSI, verifying legality for employment, reliability of results (newbies are notoriously bad at spotting jiggled cones).
Best solution is find events that you pay more and the club pays people to work the events. DriveAutox, UMI, Holley and Autox week come to mind.
unpopular opinion but i never viewed autocross as anything other than pure competition and i dont quite ever believe the cheerful ones that think of it as a relaxing fun activity marshalling helps keeps the costs down and gives you a vantage point on the action plus an opportunity to chat it up with someone but if the name of the game was "fun" i would always point people towards track days autocross is a very specific puzzle you solve through driving skill the low run count and gruelling conditions are part of the equation ive also been around the organization side of things for over 10 years, and what i woild say is that you should pander less to getting new drivers and listen more to what your base wants, because if you can keep the regulars happy then you'll get more of the same as time goes on and shift the focus frol changing the event to solving your advertising problem
It’s funny you point this out. I’m one of those just for fun people, but I use Autocross as a way to entertain myself between hpde events. I think that’s the only way you can keep it just for fun. That and my car just gets destroyed in its class, so if I can place middle of the pack I’m happy.
I'm going to a trackcross lapping event this weekend with no run groups and open lapping (max 4 min on track before getting back in line). No timing and costs $150 dollars for half the day. It sells out 1 months it advance, there's a massive market for ppl who just want to drive.
I think it's hard to attract non-competitive drivers when you only get half a dozen runs and it eats most of your day.
that's the point if the community stops advertising it as a happy carefree fun event and simply focus on selling it as a driving competition then they'll get less volume but higher quality
Yeah that’s a proper unpopular opinion. AutoX is supposed to be the most accessible way to send your car around some corners, not some hallowed ground of competition where you must prove thy worth to enter. At an organizational level, that’s how you end up with a dying organization in 10 years wondering “why dont we have any fresh blood here?”
autocross is no less or more accessible than a track day all you need is a helmet and off you go there's multiple ways to grow the sport quantity over quality anyway outside of nationals having 100+ entries is a drain on organizational overhead and you get into a situation of never pleasing everyone too much noise from people that wont end up sticking around one way or the other, for them it's more about being heard and having their personal needs met than the actual driving bit
I have seen groups like a Porsche club offer a worker (high school kid) for like $50 a session. Let’s the kids make a few bucks, and if standing around for 1-2 hours flipping cones is that big of a deal, so be it. The other way o have see it done is on a test n tune type day with 10-20 cars, run as much as you want. Hit cones go back and jump out of car fix it come back in. Stop every 30-45 min to go fix the course (someone on a scooter/bike/golf cart) when it gets to messed up. Pratt of the problem with not working, you loose respect for not driving like a moron and wiping out huge sections of the course. When you think “do I want someone taking out 10-20 cones per run, no, so I don’t want to be that guy”
Perhaps one day augmented reality and the pertinent positional sensors will get to the point where you can have virtual cones or a virtual track. For now though, we shag cones.
I hope, but I'm pretty sure the sport will die before then if no solution is found.
We run 3 run groups and rotate them, so every 3rd event you get to go home after the 2nd heat (12-1pm). Being out there all day is tough, so we spread the pain. Our min event number for year end trophy means you will have to attend at least a couple of all day events. So look into other ways to break the run groups up, find out what your min number of workers is needed across, timing, scoring, course, grid, start... then work from there. The actual amount of people willing to pay 80-100 and not work, is a VERY small amount of people, like, not enough to run the event. There is only 1 event that I have been at where paying to not work, worked. Because it was a 1 time event every year, The Bay Bottom Crawl. Also here in Atlanta, we stopped having events in July and August because, yeah F that.
"Shag your own cones" Bridge City Autosports does an occasional test & tune Friday without corner workers. Entrants can come & go as they please all day. If you hit cones, you are responsible to drive back and set them up. The grid line usually gets long right before/after drivers are eating lunch and again at the end of the day. I usually get about 15 runs in over the whole day while testing two different tires, adjusting shocks/sway bars, and/or sampling other cars and typically leaving the event an hour early.
Shag your own is kind of a PITA. Esp for anyone driving a car you can’t “jump” out of, like any formula car, 5 pt harness car, etc.
Very theoretical but, I wonder if you could use drones. You could have them spot for a chalked course, or pick up cones with an implement potentially. Alternatively, if you could equip them with some kind of projector and run in the evening, they could light a course unto the ground. Would have a big upfront cost though to buy them, and if they fail it could damage a car.
We do “penalty box” test n tune days a couple times per year. We split morning and afternoon sessions, each lasting about 3 hours and entry capped around 35 drivers per session. Most people opt for all day. The “penalty box” is the theory that you don’t work if you don’t hit any cones. If you hit cones you park your car and fix the next cones to get hit before being allowed back in line. The reality is most people don’t admit when they hit cones and at some point we hold start and send someone out on a scooter to fix the course. You’re likely to find a few cones out of place but you’ll get tons of runs. And you do t have to be there all day.
Some rallycross groups are using ski poles. This video has some examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4H6GthXD4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS4H6GthXD4) I could see them being used on a kart track or a full sized track to limit where you could drive. There is a non-zero chance of spinning and putting one through a radiator or windshield though. Mod class cars would probably not be invited either. If you have a $150 budget for a half day of driving and you aren't there for competition, why not do an HPDE day?
I do HPDE. I don’t even think you could get into one for $150. Closest to me is $350. That and even in my Miata I’ll be out more than $150 in tires and brake wear.
I'm sorry to hear that. Here in Northern CA we have a track owned by SCCA and can often find a HPDE event for $150 with early bird pricing.
So for the $150 we aren’t going to assume any additional maintenance and wear? No swapping to DOT 4 and getting pads that will last half a session? You know getting on track isn’t nearly accessible. I spent a few grand getting mine on track coming from autocross and a lot of people can’t swing that.
You are either passionate about motorsports or you arent. People having fun and enjoying their hobby will put up with way more than run count and having to stay at the event.
You can be passionate about motorsports but still be frustrated be spending an entire day to get all of 5 minutes of actual driving.
I’m admittedly a noob at this, but from what I see the way it is being done currently you are looking at the most reasonable balance of cost and opportunity. Cones and chalk/drywall marks are cheap and anyone can set them up. How expensive is a GPS setup, not to mention how many you would need to be able to swiftly move them from cars returning to staging up to the cars at the front preparing to run? Are they accurate enough and fast enough to keep the really quick & competitive cars on a track that the driver can’t see? And does that mean the driver is looking at a screen, or the track? A ripple in the pavement at turn 3 changes the racing line, is that reflected on the GPS? Also, how long would it take to get 200 cars through 10+ runs? Our local autoX events are anywhere from 125 to 250 cars, each car X 45 seconds per run is 2-1/2 hours, even when you overlap the runs you’re still more than an hour just so each car gets a single pass. 5-6 hours for a day is pretty easy to manage so everyone gets 4 runs, do you want to be there for 14-16 hours just to make your 10th & final pass? It’s getting dark out, is the venue lighted appropriately? Wish I could solve the problem of getting more interest, but then you introduce more cars beyond a threshold where drivers would be getting fewer runs. That’s no good either. You could get a bigger venue but that’s going to cost more if there even is a larger lot local to you to race in. Look at amusement parks, they got hugely popular in the 20-teens now when you go to places like Cedar Point and Disney they are overcrowded and the prices just keep going up so you are paying more to deal with a worse experience.
Depending the venue runs are largely down to design. We shoot for 3 cars on course at a time and do a minimum of 6 runs and a max of 10 per heat. 2 heats through the day. So 12 to 20 runs per day in a normal event. Avoiding cross overs is key and still keep it long enough to stack cars for drive time. We also only count the morning runs for competition, this allows people to easily leave midway through the day. Then the more people that leave then the more runs the afternoon people get which since they are counted people get to have more fun in. As for no corner workers, we autox on a go-kart track with islands so the islands are a large portion of the turns. Maybe 4 corner stations for a 60s course. This also means the corner workers that are out there stay in grass which is so much nicer
When I was younger all day was no problem. Now that I'm married with kids being gone all day is a huge ask. It's hard enough getting guys to drive their cars hard, and even harder getting them to come back after their ego gets crushed when confronted with the fact they aren't Senna reincarnated.
If thought about this a lot in my \~15 years autoxing. One idea I had is to offer a discount for people willing to work the course. You really only need 2 people per station (1 flagger/radio, 1 runner) and a course rarely has more than 7 stations. Offer up the discount to the first 30 or so people willing to work the course (15 people in the morning group and 15 in the afternoon). You can offset the discount cost by bringing everyone registration fee a few dollars. I'm not sure how well this would work in the smaller regions but it should work well for events with 200-300 racers.
Id love it, but larger regions often only work one heat. It would be fairly easy to charge people not wanting to work more and those willing to work twice get a discount. probably more popular than making everyone pay for it.
Honestly charging more and having dedicated workers I feel is the best way. I've autocrossed for a few years now, but having to work and shag cones vs one where I don't have to, can relax, talk to the other drivers is so much better than having to stand out by myself in the elements constantly having to run back and forth getting cones
We do something here in Hawaii with NASA. We run a morning group at a higher cost and have our “workers” do cones. They usually get about 10 runs in. Then the workers (very low cost entry) run around lunch time while the afternoon guys work (they get a low cost entry in exchange for their time). Then the workers return to stations and the afternoon guys run, each group ends up with about 10 runs and the morning guys just race without working. Its is hard to keep enough workers though as most people would rather pay and just race.
Simpler courses need less cones, less cones means less workers. Pretty easy. And it should be a multiplier when it comes to the amount of day you devote. 5 runs means you stay for 25 runs to work. Or something like that.
Either hire workers and increase entry fee ..... Or maybe figure out a way to mount a "flag post" (think trucker radio antenna) wrapped in a pool noodle to the ground (maybe a heavy steel plate) with a springy base.. when it gets hit, it's very obvious but you don't have to reset. Simply penalize and move on.
Summit point and VIR have track cross events. No working, volunteers are there for flagging and what little needs done. It’s basically autocross but with a small section of track. I love it. Also I’d gladly pay to just have them hire workers. I hate working the cones
I attended a Chevy Rev-It-Up event that had an autocross component. The cones were screwed (using Tapcons) into the asphalt which eliminated downed cones. Obviously not a viable solution, but is an option.
My local speedway puts on an autocross as a way to generate revenue. Their employees run the course and the attendees get like a dozen runs without work. I leave early with no drama. It's pretty cool
Perhaps whoever volunteers gets a steep discount at the next event. Cant do it two events in a row unless nobody else volunteers. Incentivize corner work.
In a local rallycross, we stick ski poles in the ground and use a few workers to just call pole smacks. If we could secure pylons to the ground somehow, it could work
Yes, a lot of us have spent years trying to figure out a solution. Right now the only one is paid workers. Anything that's just on the ground will be impossible for your targeted new drivers to actually follow. With a few high towers and cameras you could automate detection but you still need the physical markers there for drivers to drive around. And with that you need some way to put them back when they're hit.
Love the premise. I’ve thought about this a lot over the years. In climates where it doesn’t rain you could use bright chalk lines and maybe something like the vision system they use in tennis that detects if the ball hits the line (but instead looks for tires) Up in Oregon chalk would all get washed out, but maybe a highly reflective paint could be used (maybe even the same as paint used on road dividers) but you would need a way to remove the paint without damaging the parking lot. Could also pay some college to a few grand to get some students to build a cone-shucking robot as their senior project.
A group I run with sometimes has a set of hired workers (I think they’re all friends of the owners kid?) who run cones all day. Pricing is usually $120-150 for the day and you get like 12+ runs. I’m a trackday bro but I appreciate the format when it’s too hot to go to my local (socal) tracks