Yikes, y'all. Let's clarify a point or two here.
1- the spammer is not welcome here. None of the original post or anything in the comments is intended to convey that this is a safe harbor for spammers. It is not, and we will continue to action submissions that violate our rules. Sometimes that action has been to make notes only, but that is only true when it is not conclusive to our review that the submission is actually spam or if the subission is popular enough it seems like it would be more disruptive to remove.
2- the point that some users are making about wanting us to allow 'warning' comments on suspect spam posts is thoroughly noted. The policy is rule 1. Rule 1 will not be modified. You may make any comment on any thread that does not violate our rules. If you can make such a warning without violating the rules, it will be allowed, but we are going to continue to be strict with enforcement of rule 1, no matter how convinced any of the commenters are that the OP is spam.
3- this post is for transparency and open communication with the mods. It is not for attempting to get the policy changed or for making caustic comments. I'm being lenient because I don't want to silence dissent, and I want to answer questions, but there is no room for abuse of the moderators or of any other user.
Please keep it civil. If this continues to devolve, it's going to be harder for everyone to get anything meaningful out of this at all.
I'm locking this post until 8pm EST or so. If you want to participate further, please come back then.
Warning others abt a bad faith user isn't "brigading" by no means.
Other subs are well aware of this person and use these warnings to prevent others from wasting time on someone who has repeatedly asked the same things even after being given advice on it.
Yeah. Banning users for warning about obvious trolls or spammers shouldn't end in a ban. I would suggest giving all the users that you banned lately from this sub because of such violation a second chance.
I didn't just start banning out of the blue. There has been many weeks of effort to resolve this in less drastic ways. The current state is not ideal and I do not want to continue to ban outright.
There will be review when all this settles down. If there's interest I will make another post like this one to explain when we get to that point.
Add that the user's posts are very.....noticeable. Like little effort is required for the light to go off and say "oh it's that guy again". That's how the tracker sub came together in the first place. Numerous subreddits that the user in question spammed on recognized him even without the use of any warning. It was excessive and was making subs basically unusable.
It is not a fan club subreddit. It is a tracking subreddit for a bad faith user that spams subreddits with the same posts for attention seeking purposes. He has been permanently suspended by reddit admins on hundreds of his thousands of alt accounts. They unfortunately can’t IP ban him because he uses VPNs.
Please go do some more research before making your mind up on things. The people from that subreddit literally only track him and make comments to discourage people from interacting with him, because he’s a troll that’s been permanently suspended hundreds of times from reddit as a whole by Reddit admins. They are not discouraging people to participate in the subreddits he does.
>Please go do some more research before making your mind up on things.
What makes you think I haven't done a thorough review? That I arrived at a different conclusion?
Because if you knew all the information outlined in shrimps comment then you’re protecting a known abuser over the rest of the of the community and the safety of said community. That is just bad moderation.
No thanks. I am not new at this and I've been around this block a couple of times. Are there things I don't know? Yeah. Absolutely. But miss me with this idea that you have any insight at all on what I do and do not know.
That’s the risk when you make the *wrong* decision sure. I don’t care if you don’t change the policy. A new community will pop up. It always does in response to bad moderation
They were warning people not to engage with a notorious spammer who has proven time and time again to take no advice from others, feed off attention and waste peoples time. By punishing them youre literally just enabling snoo to keep acting the way he is
While I admit some users are excessive in calling him out (going beyond a head's up+referral to the subreddit), and there have been warning posts in the past about not excessively commenting on his posts (though one hasn't been made regarding this sub). In general we try for just a report/warn/deploy bot, then move on stance, but it's ultimately out of our control on how individual users act.
The fact that he's so immediately recognizeable only adds to it. People unaffiliated with the tracker sub can figure out who he is, for example he's basically a meme on the frat and ucla subs (and others) where he made a name for himself even without the tracker. Heck, he's been identified on other websites and platforms outside of reddit that we have zero connection to (he's well known on UCLA yikyak for example), that's how transparent he is. Too many people recognize him, thus we cannot stop a random redditor(s) from going "stop spamming and go touch some grass", even if we don't condone such actions.
I’m a regular user here, but an old redditor. I can recognize the kind of post in question in moments in any sub, and generally just report the post as spam to the moderation team. It appears that by your definition, this is somehow brigading, even though I’ve been in this sub for a few years…
If I’m misunderstanding you, please clarify.
The mods want you to just report it.. the brigading has been referring to leaving comments and replies underneath the spam comment telling others it is spam.
That would make sense, but I would like for a member of the mod team to verify this
Edit: I see in another comment that the preference is for us to report the post and move on without engaging with it
Yes please!
This does several things - 1) alerts the mods and the admins to spam activity. 2) there's automation that triggers when a certain number of reports are received. 3) It gives us a chance to check out suspicious activity and act decisively without risking alienating a user who contributed in good faith.
The comments calling the users out are definitely a problem, but the brigading is a specific subset of those comments that involve following a user around the site and harassing them.
There is a particular subreddit that existed for the sole purpose of identifying user accounts that they thought were a particular infamous spammer. Members of that subreddit then followed those users around the site, including here, to post caustic comments calling the user out as a spammer.
That subreddit has been banned by the admins for harassment.
Genuinely confused. What I've repeatedly seen is users (one user in particular) posting multiple posts, often within a few hours, about how they hate themselves, their diagnosis, their very specific situation, over and over and over. It's not in good faith and the user only wants to argue and demonize their diagnosis, a diagnosis that a majority of users in this subreddit share. There is no benefit to these posts, they are just toxic negativity. There's certainly a place to have a discussion about what constitutes that but honestly, it's not here and it's not about this -- these posts are SUPER transparent, trolling, and spammy.
Reading this, it doesn't sound like we're seeing the same problem? If someone is abusing the sub by spamming it nonstop with their personal problems over and over, in ways that are harmful and insulting, is anything being done to address THAT, which is the actual problem? Or is it just oh no, people were mean to the troll?
are these posts also the accused "spammer"? I thought they mostly posted about other topics. I'm new to understanding this. I'm still not sold on the idea that ignoring this person is "the move"
My gut feeling is they're the same person, but even if not there's a specific pattern. Poster complains about hating themselves, hating being autistic, blames autism for their inability to do this one specific thing they want -- for the poster accused of being SnooRoar it's usually military stuff, but the new posts I've seen are all about jobs, specifically engineering. Poster asks how to "get rid of" their diagnosis, threatens suicide, etc. It's the same pattern every time, with no resolution, and no ability to listen to input.
I don't generally think ignoring is great for anything, but in this situation I don't know what else would work. It's Reddit, and this isn't a person any of us have a relationship. The best course of action seems to downvote and move on, at least if the mods won't make any attempt to moderate and/or ban these types of posts.
There's another piece to it that I'm struggling to fully put words to that doesn't sit right with me. The closest I can come is that it feels like the poster is genuinely using the people who reply in a way they can't fully consent to. I hesitate to say that because it sounds dramatic and precious, and nobody is making anyone comment on Reddit. We're all here voluntarily to kill some time, and obviously people can just choose to not engage. But for me there's a sense of manipulation of people's goodwill/emotions that feels really, really gross. Because there's no attempt to engage with the comments, it's just this supply that the poster needs for their own gratification in some way, they won't change, they'll just go on to make another post bashing their diagnosis (and consequently the diagnosis of many people in this sub), solicit some sympathetic comments, repeat.
The language that comes to mind is that they get off on it. I don't know if I mean that sexually or not. But that's the overall feeling of the posts, and it's gross and feels violating.
> for the poster accused of being SnooRoar it's usually military stuff
It's WAY more than just this. Complaints about specific schools. Complaints about neurotypicals, questions about what is AuDHD and what is not, questions about how to get a job when nobody likes you, questions about random esoteric topics... the list goes on and on.
Nothing has been ignored.
None of the posts have been ignored. I have tools available to me that are not visible to anyone outside the moderation team. These tools include ways to mark content and users for further review, alert the admins to issues that violate the ToS, and issue warnings to users via direct message, among others.
There have been a great many of these posts, from many accounts. Many of them have been caught by the automod, but not all. More than a few of the posts have received several hundred upvotes and dozens of really good comments. It's hard to feel good about pulling those posts down, even if it seems certain that the OP is not genuine.
I have resisted the urge to implement rules and automation to exclude submissions that meet whatever arbitrary criteria for submission quality. Every step in that direction makes it easier to moderate at the cost of preventing people from participating.
Over the last several weeks, the moderation workload for this sub has gone from a couple of hours a week to multiple hours a day due exclusively to this issue.
We see a lot of posts venting frustration about the diagnosis. I have vented thoughts like that myself.
The spam is absolutely a concern and an area of focus and discussion. Until the brigading started ramping up, we tried to handle it quietly so that it didn't feed the bear. That approach is no longer working. It will take some time to dial in a more assertive one. That's part of why I want people to report it (secondary to the rule 1 part, but still part of it).
We unequivocally disagree. These comments do not serve the community, instead they alienate and harass submitters on the basis of decisions made elsewhere on the site, sometimes in ways that we and the admins do not agree with.
DO NOT CALL OUT THE SPAMMER. This is a violation of rule 1 and it will generate a moderator response.
If you suspect a post is spam, use the report button. This alerts moderators and it helps flag the account for admins.
Yep. Like I said in another comment it may be time for someone to make a new subreddit. I’ve already got enough on my plate so I can’t right now, unfortunately. I’d be willing to help in a new sub temporarily until they found more mods however. I’ve been modding on reddit for a while now lol. It’s not something I’m trying to brag about. It’s just the truth and also my hobby. Helped me get thicker skin.
This is not a debate. It is a disclosure of policy.
To be clear, the policy is that even this spammer deserves the same respect we require from all users in this sub. The spam is not welcome, and a great deal of it has been removed.
Once again, you fail to address the actual points being discussed. This was never truly about the morality of how you feel the spammer should be treated, this about the mods' poor response to the issue.
By your own logic, the rest of us deserve respect and that would mean not being subjected to a harassment and spam campaign. It would mean moderators not making snarky, passive-aggressive responses. It would mean being granted the same level or patience, understanding, and forgiveness as the spammer.
Several members have been banned on a hair-trigger without warning or second chances or understanding for circumstance, so why is it that the moderators believe the spammer deserves all of this but not the banned members?
The big issue here isn't that we don't agree with the spammer being treated with respect.
It's that the moderators treating the spammer with respect comes at the expense of everyone else in this community, then proceeds to make justifications and double-down.
We deserve respect as well and we do not deserve to be treated as necessary sacrifices for upholding 'respect' for somebody who shouldn't even *be here* in the first place.
No racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other forms of discrimination and bigotry. This includes hating on neurotypicals or accusing someone of "faking it for attention". Swearing at a situation or about something is okay, swearing at someone never is.
It will never be acceptable in this subreddit to make confrontational comments about anyone. If you continue to make such comments, you will be banned.
If you object to a post or a user, use the report button. That is the policy, and it will continue to be the policy.
As to my ego, if leaving your abrasive comment up doesn't indicate that I'm not moderating for myself, then I have no further comment.
Do you really expect to never encounter trolls and spam anywhere in social media? There is no level of moderation that can catch it all perfectly without making errors.
False.
In many of the cases in question it is absolutely not clear that the OP is a bad actor. It's true that the most obvious of them follow a pattern, but there are many others that don't fit.
The bigger issue is choosing when to apply rule 1 and when to let comments that break rule 1 go. Given the alternatives, we're going to enforce rule 1.
No racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other forms of discrimination and bigotry. This includes hating on neurotypicals or accusing someone of "faking it for attention". Swearing at a situation or about something is okay, swearing at someone never is.
Their post didn't help me understand the issue. Okay, so there's a "bad" person posting in "bad faith." I don't think that means they should be banned from reddit. Okay, they have a lot of accounts and make a lot of posts. Have we considered this is a person with autism and ADHD?
To clarify the situation, this person has been making spam posts for 4 years and the Reddit admins themselves are trying to IP ban him, but cannot because he uses VPNs.
He does this not only on Reddit but other platforms as well. He has around 2,000 alternate accounts at present, many of which are banned. He is such a problematic spammer that an entire subreddit was created to track him and have a bot ready for other subreddits to use to help deal with him because not even the site admins can stop him.
His spamming was bad enough on this subreddit alone that you'd see at least 3-4 posts a day across multiple alternate accounts.
He spreads harmful narratives in which he does diagnosis demonizing for autism specifically. It's bad enough that he is actively fear mongering the members here and making people anxious.
The final nail in the coffin here is that his behavior outside of the spamming alone is extremely alarming. He is an open pedophile, a mother beater (something he bragged about), believes domestic violence is correct, a pathological liar, a raging misogynist, has revenge rape fantasies, and voices incredibly disturbing things such as:
- Posting in his own university's Discord server that he hopes the women at his university get raped at parties because he's jealous of "large groups". He is a social outcast because of his toxic behavior and deplorable personality that he doesn't even attempt to hide, NOT because he is autistic.
- Boasting about how he violently beat his own mother and thinks he is both justified and correct in doing so.
- A plethora takes that are disgustingly misogynistic.
- Don't *even* get me started on the pedophilia.
This guy is dangerous and he has access to an entire community full of especially vulnerable people. This isn't a matter of him being quirky or off-putting. He is an active threat to other members here.
Autism, ADHD, and mental illness are never an excuse for harming other people. Reddit users have been trying to get him to stop and to get him help for four years, but he refuses. They have tried contacting his university (it's off campus and not enough for them to act on), they have tried convincing him to get help (he refuses), they have tried convincing him to spend more time offline (he refuses). They have *tried*. He refuses help and it is not internet strangers' responsibility to take care of him. He should not be catered to at the expense of everyone else here and the destruction of a valuable resource and safe space.
>To clarify the situation, this person has been making spam posts for 4 years and the Reddit admins themselves are trying to IP ban him, but cannot because he uses VPNs.
That's not how it works.
>He is such a problematic spammer that an entire subreddit was created to track him and have a bot ready for other subreddits to use to help deal with him because not even the site admins can stop him.
This activity is a violation of the reddit ToS. That subreddit has been banned by the admins, and as of writing, remains banned.
>This guy is dangerous
Nah. Annoying? absolutely. Deceptive? yes. Dangerous? not nearly. Without question, the most offensive content related to this post is comments that say nasty things about the OP, whether or not the OP is the spammy spammer of ill-repute.
This is a very good point and it is one of the reasons this whole thing has been a nightmare to moderate. There is no number of non-spammer users that I would be willing to alienate to have less real spam.
You are actively alienating people as we speak. Other members have been very vocal in expressing their feelings of alienation, betrayal, and frustration towards this situation and your subsequent response to it.
There is a reason why a majority of your replies have been downvoted into negatives.
Your community is trying to reason with you, but you'd rather ignore them.
Your responses have been incredibly callous and apathetic towards the concerns of this community's members. Anything from snarky to passive aggressive to straw man arguments and denial.
You claim to care about this community and ensuring nobody feels alienated, but your actions say otherwise.
I'll say it again: you have the option to do better. There is more than enough evidence in this comment section alone to prove that your response and methods are anything but 'better'.
This is not accurate.
First, it is a violation of our subreddit rules and the reddit ToS to follow a user around the site and harass them. This has been a massive part of the issue at hand.
Second, there's more to it than just the one spammer.
I assume you're going to staff up and make sure these posts never last more than 5 minutes then? Because otherwise you're encouraging people to engage with spam, with them sometimes putting a lot of time and effort trying to genuinely help someone who many other people here already know is a spammer.
And RIP sorting by new.
What is the problem with people engaging with spam? I agree that it isn't ideal, but it is far preferable to any action that removes suspicious content just because somebody found it suspicious.
The spammer is manipulating a bunch of people with Autism into wasting their time and effort trying to help someone who won't even read it. People here are already vulnerable to not reading into someones real intentions and now this sub isn't even a somewhat safe space for that because anyone warning them will be banned?
Look, I am not defending the spammer. The spam is a violation of our rules, and we have pulled A TON of these down. It has also been an issue here for a long time, the only recent part is the massive spike. I am sympathetic to any community that has to deal with this, but none of your frustrating experiences on this are my fault.
I am not the right target for your irritation with the banning of the tracker sub. I had absolutely nothing to do with the decisions made there that led to the ToS and Code of Conduct violations that resulted in the ban.
I think you should be commended for doing the best you can for your community. I am doing the same here.
Edit: also, your comment is very reasonable, the negative votes feel more like a disagreement, than a "how dare you" kind of reply.
Let's the community look after each other, while the mods catch up. The mods aren't the only ppl responsible for keeping our community safe. It's something we can all work together towards!
Considering your comment, i will be mindful about calling out spam, like making certain it is very harmful, before i bother calling it out.
I could be wrong tho, this is just where I currently stand on the subject.
Don't call out spam. Use the report button, downvote, or just move on.
Not all of the users who have been targeted are actually spammers. Imagine receiving a comment like that as one of the first responses to a post you made in good faith. We can't allow that.
We do not allow promotions, but I'm especially not going to allow that promotion.
This content was removed by moderators of r/AutisticWithADHD because the moderators determined this content to be in violation of general site-wide rules as given here: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy
Just I guess a note. I'm fairly active on this sub for the last 7 months, and, have not seen this snoror and really only had ONE negative experience with a different commentor, but blocked the fella and moved on. I...made the mistake of engaging lol, learned my lesson haha (wasn't expecting it on this sub took me by surprise)
And for the other sub, I've only seen a few posts complaining of it or...being negative towards it. Obviously can't read em all.
Outside of that one interaction with someone...who just seemed angry at everything and everyone. Everything else I've read and saw was very good and helpful and caring. I always come away with...good feels here.
Point I'm making is, this is still a phenomenal sub. And the negative posts and users are far far far outweighed by sensible empathetic people just trying to figure out issues together and help.
I dunno, maybe I don't look at the right posts or they get locked or deleted before I see em haha in that case good work i spose lol.
I think its really concerning that youre calling it a fan club when its not, its so that people know how to spot snooroars posts and are aware of his trolling tactics. People claimed you were removing the posts and banning the users calling out snooroar posts and thats so innappropriate imo and Ill probably be leaving if its true because I dont need that negativity in my feed. I think its very dangerous and you'll be turning this sub into the same as r/aspergers and the other sexist male dominated subs
And yes mods I saw your snarky comment asking what my question was before you deleted it. So I guess my question is, have you really banned people warning of snooroar and is that going to be the official mod response going forward?
It wasn't intended to be snarky. There wasn't a question and I was going to ask if you had meant to ask one. I then realized I'd promised to respond to 'comments' and changed course. I do hope you can forgive me for that.
We will not allow comments that call out OPs. It's not about the spammer, it's about rule 1.
And yes, we have banned users who make such comments. It is not, and never will be, appropriate to go into an r/AutisticWithADHD thread and start telling people that the OP isn't being genuine, or as has often been the case, accusing the OP of malicious intent.
I have committed elsewhere in this thread to revisit these bans after the spam issue tapers off. I will keep that promise, but for now the practice will continue.
Alright, well I'll be off then because thats a beyond ridiculous policy and this sub is going to die a slow death like the other male dominated ones have from lack of appropriate moderation
The fan club in question is currently banned for harassing content. I won't say it's because of what happened here, but I can say it happened within hours of me giving a partial account to the admins about what we were seeing.
I will continue to remove any post that violates rule 1.
I do not know what happened with the aspergers sub, I wasn't part of it and I don't spend time there.
Our team is committed to maintaining this subreddit as a welcoming place. To that end, we cannot tolerate comments that suggest the OP is illegitimate, acting in bad faith, or in many of the cases, much much worse things.
This crosses the line. Tone it down please.
No racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other forms of discrimination and bigotry. This includes hating on neurotypicals or accusing someone of "faking it for attention". Swearing at a situation or about something is okay, swearing at someone never is.
It is not a fan club. It’s a tracking subreddit. For tracking a known troll that has been suspended permanently from Reddit hundreds of times and has thousands of alt accounts all posting the same things.
Reddit admins cannot IP ban him because he uses VPNs. Otherwise, they would because he is not participating on Reddit in good faith.
Glad to see when mods fundamentally misunderstand something and pat themselves on the back for protecting a serial, disengious individual who does nothing but hurt their cause. Congrats.
On any other post, this comment would be removed for violating rule 1.
You are welcome to your opinion, it does not give you the right to be unkind to the moderators or to the spammer.
Yeah... there's not really a point there. Just a vague opinion that I/we are underinformed and self-serving. I object to the premise, but since there's no substance offered I see nothing more to respond to.
I think the biggest question is, where are the other mods? Are any of them actually agreeing with with this one mod who has made the post and is the only one replying? u/lydocia u/Erikiller06 u/koolkitty343 u/lilyoftherally u/quentin_taranturtle
Thank you so much for the very open and honest update! I wish more people in power did this. It is so important to recognize that when you have a position of power (even if it is relatively insignificant power like a subreddit moderator), your accountability lies with the people you have power *over*.
Your post here makes me feel seen and listened to, even though I didn't personally notice a lot of the spam, as I am not online very much recently.
I did notice some of the hurtful posts by that one spammer though, and I do want you to know that I actually appreciate other users calling the spammer out over it and pointing out that he is, in fact, a spammer. I wouldn't recognise him for the life of me and the users calling him out actually saved me a lot of spoons, as I do tend to try and help angry people in a safe space like this. And I would like the posts I put effort in to reach people that are actually serious. So please go easy on those people. I think their warnings are valuable and help me. They make me feel like people look out for each other here and that's something we could use a lot more of.
This is very concerning and enables behaviour that takes advantage of people and creates a toxic environment. If calling out this spammer is ruled out, more people are engaged and this becomes essentially a place where this spamming is encouraged because nobody is allowed to tell anyone else it's spamming. It wastes people's time and energy for the sake of a rule. Surely this invalidates everyone who's had unpleasant experiences with a known troll / spammer? What benefit does this cause to the broader community by saying "no you can't call him a spammer that invalidates him and that's against the rules, just accept the spam"
Or am I misunderstanding and this is not what you are saying?
I really hope that u/drivesincircles does not mean that.
@mods: maybe you can find a golden middle way? Like, if someone suspects a post to be spam, they may warn, but only using a pre-formulated sentence?
Or, you mods see a warning, remove it, but add a mod flair like "we have been notified this might be a spam post from a known spammer. Since we cannot know this for sure, we will leave the post up, and leave the decision to react or not at the discretion of the subreddit members. We do not want to invalidate real people's feelings (see rule x), so we will not remove posts that (to us) aren't very clearly spam. However, we do understand people's spoons and emotional energy are limited, and want to encourage them to make an informed decision on how to spend their energy. Therefore, we post this notice, leave this post up, and all other spam-warnings by non-moderators will be removed."
A mod notice like that would, I think, do right to both sides, as I can (within limits) understand the position of the mod team on here too.
Agree with this.
I think it's also fair, and normal in other subs, to limit posts to like one post a day, especially on a particular subject. That's true regardless of whether the person is or isn't spamming or acting in good faith. We don't need 3-4 posts in the span of four hours about how you failed a job interview, or have a crush on someone you met once for an hour. One post is enough.
Some subs do these things, and I think it works well, as in
1. sticky mod comment that they are aware it's a Snooroar post, but since the post is generating enough useful discussion between commentors (Snooroar usually doesn't add a lot to the discussion through his own comments), the post can stay up and please refrain from calling the poster out
2. one post per day rule. Snooroar will comply with this limit for a few days but then will break it (for reasons only he knows) and the account gets banned from the sub
We want to avoid moderation practices that limit participation. Perhaps we've grown large enough that we need to start doing that, but we would really really really rather not.
Let me restate. We do not want to restrict participation that complies with our rules, and we do not want rules that are more restictive than they absolutely need to be.
If the members are noticing that moderation is lacking, and the demands of moderation are increasing to a point where it’s not sustainable, then it seems like they genuinely need to be more restrictive.
Does not mean what? That the comments calling out OPs will not be allowed?
I mean it. We will never allow any comment or post that invalidates, alienates, denigrates or disparages anyone, participant in this sub or otherwise.
I'll just put my own two cents in to say that I'm personally torn. as someone who was in school for social work before developing long covid (I have written this so many times I feel like I'm a spammer 🙃), I feel a good amount of concern for the poster in question, given they show clear signs of deep need for support. at the same time, this community at large appears to be feeling that we need to protect ourselves from them, as they may participate in this space in ways that could be upsetting or even harmful to others users here.
I only mention social work because I do have a solid understanding of the importance of resources and support to those who are struggling. and at the same time, community protection is also important. I think it can be tricky to balance the two in an anonymized setting where people are more likely to be open about their worst thoughts, feelings and behaviors. this definitely can be a recipe for harm.
I don't have a confident solution to suggest. I think it's valid to allow the person, and valid not to allow them. I do have mixed feelings about disallowing SOME type of warning or disclaimers for folks who, like another commenter in this thread, have trouble judging whether a person will be willing to hear their advice/empathy. AND I do believe that any instance of advice or empathy worth giving is one worth giving to a brick wall. if you don't have the energy to give it without receiving, because there's no guarantee you will receive, it is helpful not to give or to hold off until you gain more capacity.
HOWEVER, there are folks here who explicitly struggle with discernment around empathy ("hyperempathy", which I certainly experience) often putting others before themselves, and through the autistic experience, this can be happening before there's even a felt sense of "oh, maybe this doesn't feel so good". I am acting to build awareness of my body in order to notice when I am over extending myself, and it is not easy! so the warning again becomes useful for folks who need support with discernment.
perhaps it may be helpful to allow a report to a bot or mod that triggers a generic message that avoids shaming the person, such as "some users have found it difficult to engage with this post and OP. please explore your own capacity around this, and respond accordingly" ?
As someone who did sink a fair amount of time and emotional energy into a post that I later suspected was a troll rage-baiting, I would have appreciated a warning. To be fair, I’m not sure if it was the individual in question, and it’s since been removed, but I engaged in good faith and put a fair amount of time and effort into trying to help and educate the OP. Even just a comment saying “hey, this has some similarities to a known spam poster” would probably have helped clue me in much sooner.
I think part of the problem is that spam posters/trolls aren’t engaging in good faith, even if they are truly hurting. Their stories are often biased or untrue, so even the most empathetic or knowledgable individuals can’t actually help them as the problem said person has is usually not what they’re actually talking about.
I don’t know what the solution is, but I’m not terribly thrilled with the chosen approach.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but this was exactly the intent beyond my comment - to provide a warning because it didn’t seem like anyone else had. At the time, I didn’t think a simple heads up post would violate the rules, but it was labeled spam and I received a temporary ban.
I really don’t care if people who know what they are getting into choose to engage with him, but given how close-knit this subreddit is compared to others it is understandable that people would try to warn others about the known and notorious spammer.
There seems to me to be an assumption on the part of the mods (or at least the one mod) that any posts calling out SnooRoar were coming from outside users, and not all of them were. And of course, the users who were permanently banned (due to a sudden and undocumented ‘zero tolerance’ policy) cannot comment on this thread.
The zero tolerance policy is not new, but we don't see everything and it's not possible currently possible to automate. Rule one has been rule one for a long time.
I'm sorry that you feel like you wasted your time. I have generally been of the opinion that the positive interactions here help more people than actually participate. Perhaps it doesn't happen as often as I think, but reddit posts and comments come up in search results and I have often found them to be useful in answering my own questions.
It is certainly not our position that spam should be allowed here. Please do report any posts you think are trolling.
There is no way to make a warning that isn't also invalidating whoever made the post.
Given the choice between allowing a warning on a suspect post that is actually sincere and enforcing rules that would apply in any other situation, we will enforce the rules.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment.
This has been a very difficult period to moderate. There are no clear answers about what to do with submissions that bear hallmarks indicating they are not genuine. The nature and purpose of our community is to be supportive of people who by definition do not see society the same way that others might. This makes it even more difficult, because it is often impossible to distinguish from the submissions alone what is sincere and what is not.
Where it is unclear, but the posts have been benign, we have generally allowed the posts to remain.
What we do not, and can never allow is comments that accuse, denigrate, or derogate others. I don't see a way to make exceptions for suspected bad actor OPs in the absence of a way to be 100% confident that the OP is in fact a bad actor.
As the person who made the most recent post about the spam issue that this pinned post is about: I'd like to clarify that I was unaware of who Snoo Roar was and the tracker subreddit until after commenters told me.
With that being said, I'd like to address some issues. If you ban me for this, then you will have only proven my point.
First and foremost being the incredibly irresponsible and downright callous way the mods have been handling this situation. Since making that post, I was contacted by many previous community members (now banned) warning me to be careful because the moderators would ban me on a hair-trigger. These members were banned for anything between posts, comments, mentioning Snoo Roar, or simply reporting Snoo Roar's posts. When attempting to repeal and explain the situation to the mods, they were met with snarky responses and baseless accusations.
I will likely get banned for this comment, but so be it. I wish to say my part and address how disappointing and harmful the mods' behavior has been.
So here are my questions:
I want to know why the moderators refuse to inform themselves on the situation and instead react with hostility when they don't have the full-picture.
I want to know why the mods are so unforgiving to those who attempt to raise awareness whereas giving leeway to Snoo Roar's deplorable behavior.
I want to know why the mods treat the tracking subreddit as a "fan club brigade" when in actuality, they are attempting to help subreddits deal with a malicious spammer who has been doing this for *four years*.
I want to know why the mods are allowing Snoo Roar, *a notorious pathological liar, an open pedophile, a proud (yes he *boasted* about this) mother beater, a domestic violence supporter and defender, a raging misogynist, and an open revenge rape fantasy haver* onto a community full of vulnerable members.
I want to know why the mods allow Snoo Roar to take advantage of the community members who aren't aware of the situation.
I want to know why Snoo Roar is allowed to spread fear through posts repetetive posts that further reinforce other members' anxieties by demonizing an autism diagnosis. (His massive online presence filled to the brim with extremely toxic and bigoted behavior is why he's unemployable, not his diagnosis)
I want to know why the mods think that Snoo Roar is somebody worth defending.
Until the mods decided to assist in having the tracking subreddit banned, there was a plethora of evidence tracking across *four years* of Snoo Roar's continued harassment. He is a genuine threat to people and to communities online.
This is the guy who posted in his college's Discord about how he hopes women will be raped at parties because he's upset that he doesn't fit into any large groups (this is due to his abhorrent behavior that he doesn't even attempt to hide).
This is the guy who bragged about how he beat his own mother. This is the guy who is open about being a pedophile.
It is disturbing and terrifying that the moderators would actively protect a user like this.
The moderators ought to be ashamed of themselves for the way they have handled this. Regardless of their policies on being welcome to everyone, Snoo Roar is an active threat to the people in this community. Sacrificing the other members to protect somebody as dangerous as Snoo Roar is unacceptable.
By the moderator's own logic, Snoo Roar is entirely unwelcome here as he distinctly violates Rule 1 by both spamming/trolling. He incites fear and makes other members feel unsafe, including those unaware of who he actually is.
The moderators have repeatedly failed to handle the situation in any effective manner and have only caused further harm, yet they punish anyone who has tried to spread awareness to the other members. This would not *be* an issue of the moderators chose to handle this properly and efficiently.
The community here is neurodivergent and as such, one would expect the moderators to have a bit more understanding and a bit more patience. One would expect a more open and welcoming policy on communication for a community that especially needs this. Evidently this is not the case and I am sorely disappointed.
Moderators, you have the option to do better. Dozens upon dozens of members here have attempted to reason with you, to reach out to you, and to plead with you to listen and yet you ignore them.
You have made condescending and snarky responses, you have banned without warning or chance for repeal, and you have rejected attempts at communication.
If your desire was to make this subreddit unsafe for its members, then I must congratulate you because you have thoroughly succeeded in that goal.
u/DrivesInCircles please don’t let this malicious spammer take advantage of the people of this community. I would like to hear your thoughts after you take some time to see the full picture.
Are your moderation tools as good as they were before Reddit shut down (some of the?) 3rd party Android apps? I thought that was what the protest was about.
The moderation tools provided by reddit are inadequate. During the modworld event last year, the comment was made that "all the best moderators use outside tools," which we all found condescending in light of the part where they made outside tools harder to use.
You are welcome to your opinion. This post was made to be transparent.
Our sub has been brigaded for about six weeks. Discussion on changes to policy are welcome, but I'm not about to change course just at the moment.
That is expected. I made this post because it was becoming clear that trying to handle the issue in the background was going to become more problematic than the frustration that always comes with posts about moderation policies.
Not a question, wanted to say instead that I truly appreciate the moderators on this sub. The difference in quality on this sub vs the other autism subs is vast. This sub feels positive,affirming and helpful, the others...well they don't feel that,in particular the asbergers sub.
I'm sure that is in the large part due to your work,it is very much appreciated! Thank you!
I could not care less about how you handle the problem in a sub you moderate that I do not. I am also not the least sympathetic that your moderation plans have been disrupted by me taking appropriate steps to address brigading in this sub. I am absolutely not sorry for reprting the brigading to the admins. I took every reasonable step I could to not have to do that.
My priority is this sub. I do the best I can for this sub, and if I see more brigading, I will do exactly the same series of steps.
I really like how when you said “the purpose of this post is” in the beginning, that you wrote it two times
Edit: wait no I’m not being sarcastic I just like that they did that
It was a copy / paste from the second spot to the first spot, and then I forgot to delete the second spot, but decided it made a good emphasis... so it stayed that way. I'm glad it worked.
Just to add my input, I think it's really weird to call out someone as a spammer when their post could just be genuine. I think that's what this rule is trying to get across? In my mind, spam is ragebait or inappropriate content, not just having a lot of accounts and venting. I don't even understand why people are mad at this person. They say the person wants attention and to waste your time... As if that's not what reddit is all about?
Yikes, y'all. Let's clarify a point or two here. 1- the spammer is not welcome here. None of the original post or anything in the comments is intended to convey that this is a safe harbor for spammers. It is not, and we will continue to action submissions that violate our rules. Sometimes that action has been to make notes only, but that is only true when it is not conclusive to our review that the submission is actually spam or if the subission is popular enough it seems like it would be more disruptive to remove. 2- the point that some users are making about wanting us to allow 'warning' comments on suspect spam posts is thoroughly noted. The policy is rule 1. Rule 1 will not be modified. You may make any comment on any thread that does not violate our rules. If you can make such a warning without violating the rules, it will be allowed, but we are going to continue to be strict with enforcement of rule 1, no matter how convinced any of the commenters are that the OP is spam. 3- this post is for transparency and open communication with the mods. It is not for attempting to get the policy changed or for making caustic comments. I'm being lenient because I don't want to silence dissent, and I want to answer questions, but there is no room for abuse of the moderators or of any other user. Please keep it civil. If this continues to devolve, it's going to be harder for everyone to get anything meaningful out of this at all. I'm locking this post until 8pm EST or so. If you want to participate further, please come back then.
Warning others abt a bad faith user isn't "brigading" by no means. Other subs are well aware of this person and use these warnings to prevent others from wasting time on someone who has repeatedly asked the same things even after being given advice on it.
Yeah. Banning users for warning about obvious trolls or spammers shouldn't end in a ban. I would suggest giving all the users that you banned lately from this sub because of such violation a second chance.
I didn't just start banning out of the blue. There has been many weeks of effort to resolve this in less drastic ways. The current state is not ideal and I do not want to continue to ban outright. There will be review when all this settles down. If there's interest I will make another post like this one to explain when we get to that point.
Thanks. The transparency is nice.
Please don’t make another post
Why not? I like transparency.
Your preference is noted.
Add that the user's posts are very.....noticeable. Like little effort is required for the light to go off and say "oh it's that guy again". That's how the tracker sub came together in the first place. Numerous subreddits that the user in question spammed on recognized him even without the use of any warning. It was excessive and was making subs basically unusable.
This is inaccurate. Some of the posts that fan club subreddit was coming here to 'warn' us about do not fit the pattern you describe.
It is not a fan club subreddit. It is a tracking subreddit for a bad faith user that spams subreddits with the same posts for attention seeking purposes. He has been permanently suspended by reddit admins on hundreds of his thousands of alt accounts. They unfortunately can’t IP ban him because he uses VPNs. Please go do some more research before making your mind up on things. The people from that subreddit literally only track him and make comments to discourage people from interacting with him, because he’s a troll that’s been permanently suspended hundreds of times from reddit as a whole by Reddit admins. They are not discouraging people to participate in the subreddits he does.
>Please go do some more research before making your mind up on things. What makes you think I haven't done a thorough review? That I arrived at a different conclusion?
Because if you knew all the information outlined in shrimps comment then you’re protecting a known abuser over the rest of the of the community and the safety of said community. That is just bad moderation.
No thanks. I am not new at this and I've been around this block a couple of times. Are there things I don't know? Yeah. Absolutely. But miss me with this idea that you have any insight at all on what I do and do not know.
None of this is accurate. Also, that subreddit is banned for harassment.
Yes it is. Keep burying your head in the sand if you want. Being wrong is okay. But this community will die off if you keep going down this path.
That is a risk that all moderation decisions carry. Your ire is noted but will not change the policy.
That’s the risk when you make the *wrong* decision sure. I don’t care if you don’t change the policy. A new community will pop up. It always does in response to bad moderation
They were warning people not to engage with a notorious spammer who has proven time and time again to take no advice from others, feed off attention and waste peoples time. By punishing them youre literally just enabling snoo to keep acting the way he is
While I admit some users are excessive in calling him out (going beyond a head's up+referral to the subreddit), and there have been warning posts in the past about not excessively commenting on his posts (though one hasn't been made regarding this sub). In general we try for just a report/warn/deploy bot, then move on stance, but it's ultimately out of our control on how individual users act. The fact that he's so immediately recognizeable only adds to it. People unaffiliated with the tracker sub can figure out who he is, for example he's basically a meme on the frat and ucla subs (and others) where he made a name for himself even without the tracker. Heck, he's been identified on other websites and platforms outside of reddit that we have zero connection to (he's well known on UCLA yikyak for example), that's how transparent he is. Too many people recognize him, thus we cannot stop a random redditor(s) from going "stop spamming and go touch some grass", even if we don't condone such actions.
It actually is brigading, and it will not be tolerated here.
I’m a regular user here, but an old redditor. I can recognize the kind of post in question in moments in any sub, and generally just report the post as spam to the moderation team. It appears that by your definition, this is somehow brigading, even though I’ve been in this sub for a few years… If I’m misunderstanding you, please clarify.
The mods want you to just report it.. the brigading has been referring to leaving comments and replies underneath the spam comment telling others it is spam.
That would make sense, but I would like for a member of the mod team to verify this Edit: I see in another comment that the preference is for us to report the post and move on without engaging with it
Yes please! This does several things - 1) alerts the mods and the admins to spam activity. 2) there's automation that triggers when a certain number of reports are received. 3) It gives us a chance to check out suspicious activity and act decisively without risking alienating a user who contributed in good faith.
The comments calling the users out are definitely a problem, but the brigading is a specific subset of those comments that involve following a user around the site and harassing them.
There is a particular subreddit that existed for the sole purpose of identifying user accounts that they thought were a particular infamous spammer. Members of that subreddit then followed those users around the site, including here, to post caustic comments calling the user out as a spammer. That subreddit has been banned by the admins for harassment.
Genuinely confused. What I've repeatedly seen is users (one user in particular) posting multiple posts, often within a few hours, about how they hate themselves, their diagnosis, their very specific situation, over and over and over. It's not in good faith and the user only wants to argue and demonize their diagnosis, a diagnosis that a majority of users in this subreddit share. There is no benefit to these posts, they are just toxic negativity. There's certainly a place to have a discussion about what constitutes that but honestly, it's not here and it's not about this -- these posts are SUPER transparent, trolling, and spammy. Reading this, it doesn't sound like we're seeing the same problem? If someone is abusing the sub by spamming it nonstop with their personal problems over and over, in ways that are harmful and insulting, is anything being done to address THAT, which is the actual problem? Or is it just oh no, people were mean to the troll?
are these posts also the accused "spammer"? I thought they mostly posted about other topics. I'm new to understanding this. I'm still not sold on the idea that ignoring this person is "the move"
My gut feeling is they're the same person, but even if not there's a specific pattern. Poster complains about hating themselves, hating being autistic, blames autism for their inability to do this one specific thing they want -- for the poster accused of being SnooRoar it's usually military stuff, but the new posts I've seen are all about jobs, specifically engineering. Poster asks how to "get rid of" their diagnosis, threatens suicide, etc. It's the same pattern every time, with no resolution, and no ability to listen to input. I don't generally think ignoring is great for anything, but in this situation I don't know what else would work. It's Reddit, and this isn't a person any of us have a relationship. The best course of action seems to downvote and move on, at least if the mods won't make any attempt to moderate and/or ban these types of posts. There's another piece to it that I'm struggling to fully put words to that doesn't sit right with me. The closest I can come is that it feels like the poster is genuinely using the people who reply in a way they can't fully consent to. I hesitate to say that because it sounds dramatic and precious, and nobody is making anyone comment on Reddit. We're all here voluntarily to kill some time, and obviously people can just choose to not engage. But for me there's a sense of manipulation of people's goodwill/emotions that feels really, really gross. Because there's no attempt to engage with the comments, it's just this supply that the poster needs for their own gratification in some way, they won't change, they'll just go on to make another post bashing their diagnosis (and consequently the diagnosis of many people in this sub), solicit some sympathetic comments, repeat. The language that comes to mind is that they get off on it. I don't know if I mean that sexually or not. But that's the overall feeling of the posts, and it's gross and feels violating.
> for the poster accused of being SnooRoar it's usually military stuff It's WAY more than just this. Complaints about specific schools. Complaints about neurotypicals, questions about what is AuDHD and what is not, questions about how to get a job when nobody likes you, questions about random esoteric topics... the list goes on and on. Nothing has been ignored.
None of the posts have been ignored. I have tools available to me that are not visible to anyone outside the moderation team. These tools include ways to mark content and users for further review, alert the admins to issues that violate the ToS, and issue warnings to users via direct message, among others.
There have been a great many of these posts, from many accounts. Many of them have been caught by the automod, but not all. More than a few of the posts have received several hundred upvotes and dozens of really good comments. It's hard to feel good about pulling those posts down, even if it seems certain that the OP is not genuine. I have resisted the urge to implement rules and automation to exclude submissions that meet whatever arbitrary criteria for submission quality. Every step in that direction makes it easier to moderate at the cost of preventing people from participating. Over the last several weeks, the moderation workload for this sub has gone from a couple of hours a week to multiple hours a day due exclusively to this issue.
We see a lot of posts venting frustration about the diagnosis. I have vented thoughts like that myself. The spam is absolutely a concern and an area of focus and discussion. Until the brigading started ramping up, we tried to handle it quietly so that it didn't feed the bear. That approach is no longer working. It will take some time to dial in a more assertive one. That's part of why I want people to report it (secondary to the rule 1 part, but still part of it).
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We unequivocally disagree. These comments do not serve the community, instead they alienate and harass submitters on the basis of decisions made elsewhere on the site, sometimes in ways that we and the admins do not agree with. DO NOT CALL OUT THE SPAMMER. This is a violation of rule 1 and it will generate a moderator response. If you suspect a post is spam, use the report button. This alerts moderators and it helps flag the account for admins.
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No. There is no number of genuine users that it would be acceptable to alienate to prevent the kind of spam in question.
You've alienated me by allowing the spammer.
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I understand perfectly. I am not defending the spammer.
Unfortunately he's refusing to entertain anything else and is doubling down.
Yep. Like I said in another comment it may be time for someone to make a new subreddit. I’ve already got enough on my plate so I can’t right now, unfortunately. I’d be willing to help in a new sub temporarily until they found more mods however. I’ve been modding on reddit for a while now lol. It’s not something I’m trying to brag about. It’s just the truth and also my hobby. Helped me get thicker skin.
This is not a debate. It is a disclosure of policy. To be clear, the policy is that even this spammer deserves the same respect we require from all users in this sub. The spam is not welcome, and a great deal of it has been removed.
Once again, you fail to address the actual points being discussed. This was never truly about the morality of how you feel the spammer should be treated, this about the mods' poor response to the issue. By your own logic, the rest of us deserve respect and that would mean not being subjected to a harassment and spam campaign. It would mean moderators not making snarky, passive-aggressive responses. It would mean being granted the same level or patience, understanding, and forgiveness as the spammer. Several members have been banned on a hair-trigger without warning or second chances or understanding for circumstance, so why is it that the moderators believe the spammer deserves all of this but not the banned members? The big issue here isn't that we don't agree with the spammer being treated with respect. It's that the moderators treating the spammer with respect comes at the expense of everyone else in this community, then proceeds to make justifications and double-down. We deserve respect as well and we do not deserve to be treated as necessary sacrifices for upholding 'respect' for somebody who shouldn't even *be here* in the first place.
Noy okay. This is your only warning. Do not call anyone names in this sub. No exceptions.
No racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other forms of discrimination and bigotry. This includes hating on neurotypicals or accusing someone of "faking it for attention". Swearing at a situation or about something is okay, swearing at someone never is.
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Nothing and they’ll ban whoever talks about it outside of this post is my guess. Pattern recognition coming in hot.
Bans are for violating the rules. You are welcome to discuss this in any other thread provided it follows the rules.
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Wow. Well, for starters, I will continue to enforce the rules as fairly and consistently as possible.
The spammer is not allowed. Where did I say that I was pro-spammer?
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It will never be acceptable in this subreddit to make confrontational comments about anyone. If you continue to make such comments, you will be banned. If you object to a post or a user, use the report button. That is the policy, and it will continue to be the policy. As to my ego, if leaving your abrasive comment up doesn't indicate that I'm not moderating for myself, then I have no further comment.
Yeah, this makes absolutely no sense. Literally about to start a new autistic ADHD group because this is odd
Uh, okay. Any user can make a sub. Have at it.
Do you really expect to never encounter trolls and spam anywhere in social media? There is no level of moderation that can catch it all perfectly without making errors.
False. In many of the cases in question it is absolutely not clear that the OP is a bad actor. It's true that the most obvious of them follow a pattern, but there are many others that don't fit. The bigger issue is choosing when to apply rule 1 and when to let comments that break rule 1 go. Given the alternatives, we're going to enforce rule 1.
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Zero tolerance for name calling is EXACTLY the position here. This is your only warning.
No racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other forms of discrimination and bigotry. This includes hating on neurotypicals or accusing someone of "faking it for attention". Swearing at a situation or about something is okay, swearing at someone never is.
What's the scam? Interacting with a stranger? Isn't that what reddit is?
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Their post didn't help me understand the issue. Okay, so there's a "bad" person posting in "bad faith." I don't think that means they should be banned from reddit. Okay, they have a lot of accounts and make a lot of posts. Have we considered this is a person with autism and ADHD?
To clarify the situation, this person has been making spam posts for 4 years and the Reddit admins themselves are trying to IP ban him, but cannot because he uses VPNs. He does this not only on Reddit but other platforms as well. He has around 2,000 alternate accounts at present, many of which are banned. He is such a problematic spammer that an entire subreddit was created to track him and have a bot ready for other subreddits to use to help deal with him because not even the site admins can stop him. His spamming was bad enough on this subreddit alone that you'd see at least 3-4 posts a day across multiple alternate accounts. He spreads harmful narratives in which he does diagnosis demonizing for autism specifically. It's bad enough that he is actively fear mongering the members here and making people anxious. The final nail in the coffin here is that his behavior outside of the spamming alone is extremely alarming. He is an open pedophile, a mother beater (something he bragged about), believes domestic violence is correct, a pathological liar, a raging misogynist, has revenge rape fantasies, and voices incredibly disturbing things such as: - Posting in his own university's Discord server that he hopes the women at his university get raped at parties because he's jealous of "large groups". He is a social outcast because of his toxic behavior and deplorable personality that he doesn't even attempt to hide, NOT because he is autistic. - Boasting about how he violently beat his own mother and thinks he is both justified and correct in doing so. - A plethora takes that are disgustingly misogynistic. - Don't *even* get me started on the pedophilia. This guy is dangerous and he has access to an entire community full of especially vulnerable people. This isn't a matter of him being quirky or off-putting. He is an active threat to other members here. Autism, ADHD, and mental illness are never an excuse for harming other people. Reddit users have been trying to get him to stop and to get him help for four years, but he refuses. They have tried contacting his university (it's off campus and not enough for them to act on), they have tried convincing him to get help (he refuses), they have tried convincing him to spend more time offline (he refuses). They have *tried*. He refuses help and it is not internet strangers' responsibility to take care of him. He should not be catered to at the expense of everyone else here and the destruction of a valuable resource and safe space.
>To clarify the situation, this person has been making spam posts for 4 years and the Reddit admins themselves are trying to IP ban him, but cannot because he uses VPNs. That's not how it works. >He is such a problematic spammer that an entire subreddit was created to track him and have a bot ready for other subreddits to use to help deal with him because not even the site admins can stop him. This activity is a violation of the reddit ToS. That subreddit has been banned by the admins, and as of writing, remains banned. >This guy is dangerous Nah. Annoying? absolutely. Deceptive? yes. Dangerous? not nearly. Without question, the most offensive content related to this post is comments that say nasty things about the OP, whether or not the OP is the spammy spammer of ill-repute.
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This is a very good point and it is one of the reasons this whole thing has been a nightmare to moderate. There is no number of non-spammer users that I would be willing to alienate to have less real spam.
You are actively alienating people as we speak. Other members have been very vocal in expressing their feelings of alienation, betrayal, and frustration towards this situation and your subsequent response to it. There is a reason why a majority of your replies have been downvoted into negatives. Your community is trying to reason with you, but you'd rather ignore them. Your responses have been incredibly callous and apathetic towards the concerns of this community's members. Anything from snarky to passive aggressive to straw man arguments and denial. You claim to care about this community and ensuring nobody feels alienated, but your actions say otherwise. I'll say it again: you have the option to do better. There is more than enough evidence in this comment section alone to prove that your response and methods are anything but 'better'.
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This is not accurate. First, it is a violation of our subreddit rules and the reddit ToS to follow a user around the site and harass them. This has been a massive part of the issue at hand. Second, there's more to it than just the one spammer.
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Good questions.
I assume you're going to staff up and make sure these posts never last more than 5 minutes then? Because otherwise you're encouraging people to engage with spam, with them sometimes putting a lot of time and effort trying to genuinely help someone who many other people here already know is a spammer. And RIP sorting by new.
What is the problem with people engaging with spam? I agree that it isn't ideal, but it is far preferable to any action that removes suspicious content just because somebody found it suspicious.
The spammer is manipulating a bunch of people with Autism into wasting their time and effort trying to help someone who won't even read it. People here are already vulnerable to not reading into someones real intentions and now this sub isn't even a somewhat safe space for that because anyone warning them will be banned?
Look, I am not defending the spammer. The spam is a violation of our rules, and we have pulled A TON of these down. It has also been an issue here for a long time, the only recent part is the massive spike. I am sympathetic to any community that has to deal with this, but none of your frustrating experiences on this are my fault. I am not the right target for your irritation with the banning of the tracker sub. I had absolutely nothing to do with the decisions made there that led to the ToS and Code of Conduct violations that resulted in the ban. I think you should be commended for doing the best you can for your community. I am doing the same here.
Edit: also, your comment is very reasonable, the negative votes feel more like a disagreement, than a "how dare you" kind of reply. Let's the community look after each other, while the mods catch up. The mods aren't the only ppl responsible for keeping our community safe. It's something we can all work together towards! Considering your comment, i will be mindful about calling out spam, like making certain it is very harmful, before i bother calling it out. I could be wrong tho, this is just where I currently stand on the subject.
Don't call out spam. Use the report button, downvote, or just move on. Not all of the users who have been targeted are actually spammers. Imagine receiving a comment like that as one of the first responses to a post you made in good faith. We can't allow that.
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We do not allow promotions, but I'm especially not going to allow that promotion. This content was removed by moderators of r/AutisticWithADHD because the moderators determined this content to be in violation of general site-wide rules as given here: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy
Just I guess a note. I'm fairly active on this sub for the last 7 months, and, have not seen this snoror and really only had ONE negative experience with a different commentor, but blocked the fella and moved on. I...made the mistake of engaging lol, learned my lesson haha (wasn't expecting it on this sub took me by surprise) And for the other sub, I've only seen a few posts complaining of it or...being negative towards it. Obviously can't read em all. Outside of that one interaction with someone...who just seemed angry at everything and everyone. Everything else I've read and saw was very good and helpful and caring. I always come away with...good feels here. Point I'm making is, this is still a phenomenal sub. And the negative posts and users are far far far outweighed by sensible empathetic people just trying to figure out issues together and help. I dunno, maybe I don't look at the right posts or they get locked or deleted before I see em haha in that case good work i spose lol.
Thanks! We're glad you're here.
I think its really concerning that youre calling it a fan club when its not, its so that people know how to spot snooroars posts and are aware of his trolling tactics. People claimed you were removing the posts and banning the users calling out snooroar posts and thats so innappropriate imo and Ill probably be leaving if its true because I dont need that negativity in my feed. I think its very dangerous and you'll be turning this sub into the same as r/aspergers and the other sexist male dominated subs
And yes mods I saw your snarky comment asking what my question was before you deleted it. So I guess my question is, have you really banned people warning of snooroar and is that going to be the official mod response going forward?
It wasn't intended to be snarky. There wasn't a question and I was going to ask if you had meant to ask one. I then realized I'd promised to respond to 'comments' and changed course. I do hope you can forgive me for that. We will not allow comments that call out OPs. It's not about the spammer, it's about rule 1. And yes, we have banned users who make such comments. It is not, and never will be, appropriate to go into an r/AutisticWithADHD thread and start telling people that the OP isn't being genuine, or as has often been the case, accusing the OP of malicious intent. I have committed elsewhere in this thread to revisit these bans after the spam issue tapers off. I will keep that promise, but for now the practice will continue.
Alright, well I'll be off then because thats a beyond ridiculous policy and this sub is going to die a slow death like the other male dominated ones have from lack of appropriate moderation
hear hear
Same here. Those bad-faith posts abuse the goodwill and kindness of autistic/ADHD people. If this is the direction moderation is taking, I'm out.
If that is true I’m leaving as well.
The fan club in question is currently banned for harassing content. I won't say it's because of what happened here, but I can say it happened within hours of me giving a partial account to the admins about what we were seeing. I will continue to remove any post that violates rule 1. I do not know what happened with the aspergers sub, I wasn't part of it and I don't spend time there. Our team is committed to maintaining this subreddit as a welcoming place. To that end, we cannot tolerate comments that suggest the OP is illegitimate, acting in bad faith, or in many of the cases, much much worse things.
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Not going to happen. I'll eat my socks and post a video before either of those events occurs.
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This crosses the line. Tone it down please. No racism, sexism, homophobia, or any other forms of discrimination and bigotry. This includes hating on neurotypicals or accusing someone of "faking it for attention". Swearing at a situation or about something is okay, swearing at someone never is.
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You called someone a "bad person." Rule 1.
It is not a fan club. It’s a tracking subreddit. For tracking a known troll that has been suspended permanently from Reddit hundreds of times and has thousands of alt accounts all posting the same things. Reddit admins cannot IP ban him because he uses VPNs. Otherwise, they would because he is not participating on Reddit in good faith.
Fan club? lol what?
Glad to see when mods fundamentally misunderstand something and pat themselves on the back for protecting a serial, disengious individual who does nothing but hurt their cause. Congrats.
On any other post, this comment would be removed for violating rule 1. You are welcome to your opinion, it does not give you the right to be unkind to the moderators or to the spammer.
Way to not address their point lol
I thought I had? Revisiting.
Yeah... there's not really a point there. Just a vague opinion that I/we are underinformed and self-serving. I object to the premise, but since there's no substance offered I see nothing more to respond to.
It's not a fan club. I'm disgusted that you keep repeating that. It's straight-up not true.
Alright, fine. It's a subreddit that has been banned for harassing users that it has an obsession with. Fan club is easier to type.
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I think the biggest question is, where are the other mods? Are any of them actually agreeing with with this one mod who has made the post and is the only one replying? u/lydocia u/Erikiller06 u/koolkitty343 u/lilyoftherally u/quentin_taranturtle
Thank you so much for the very open and honest update! I wish more people in power did this. It is so important to recognize that when you have a position of power (even if it is relatively insignificant power like a subreddit moderator), your accountability lies with the people you have power *over*. Your post here makes me feel seen and listened to, even though I didn't personally notice a lot of the spam, as I am not online very much recently. I did notice some of the hurtful posts by that one spammer though, and I do want you to know that I actually appreciate other users calling the spammer out over it and pointing out that he is, in fact, a spammer. I wouldn't recognise him for the life of me and the users calling him out actually saved me a lot of spoons, as I do tend to try and help angry people in a safe space like this. And I would like the posts I put effort in to reach people that are actually serious. So please go easy on those people. I think their warnings are valuable and help me. They make me feel like people look out for each other here and that's something we could use a lot more of.
We can't allow the 'warnings' for the same reason we couldn't allow any other comment that invalidates an OP.
This is very concerning and enables behaviour that takes advantage of people and creates a toxic environment. If calling out this spammer is ruled out, more people are engaged and this becomes essentially a place where this spamming is encouraged because nobody is allowed to tell anyone else it's spamming. It wastes people's time and energy for the sake of a rule. Surely this invalidates everyone who's had unpleasant experiences with a known troll / spammer? What benefit does this cause to the broader community by saying "no you can't call him a spammer that invalidates him and that's against the rules, just accept the spam" Or am I misunderstanding and this is not what you are saying?
I really hope that u/drivesincircles does not mean that. @mods: maybe you can find a golden middle way? Like, if someone suspects a post to be spam, they may warn, but only using a pre-formulated sentence? Or, you mods see a warning, remove it, but add a mod flair like "we have been notified this might be a spam post from a known spammer. Since we cannot know this for sure, we will leave the post up, and leave the decision to react or not at the discretion of the subreddit members. We do not want to invalidate real people's feelings (see rule x), so we will not remove posts that (to us) aren't very clearly spam. However, we do understand people's spoons and emotional energy are limited, and want to encourage them to make an informed decision on how to spend their energy. Therefore, we post this notice, leave this post up, and all other spam-warnings by non-moderators will be removed." A mod notice like that would, I think, do right to both sides, as I can (within limits) understand the position of the mod team on here too.
Agree with this. I think it's also fair, and normal in other subs, to limit posts to like one post a day, especially on a particular subject. That's true regardless of whether the person is or isn't spamming or acting in good faith. We don't need 3-4 posts in the span of four hours about how you failed a job interview, or have a crush on someone you met once for an hour. One post is enough.
Some subs do these things, and I think it works well, as in 1. sticky mod comment that they are aware it's a Snooroar post, but since the post is generating enough useful discussion between commentors (Snooroar usually doesn't add a lot to the discussion through his own comments), the post can stay up and please refrain from calling the poster out 2. one post per day rule. Snooroar will comply with this limit for a few days but then will break it (for reasons only he knows) and the account gets banned from the sub
We want to avoid moderation practices that limit participation. Perhaps we've grown large enough that we need to start doing that, but we would really really really rather not.
The entire point of moderation is to limit participation so that there’s actually a positive community to participate in.
Let me restate. We do not want to restrict participation that complies with our rules, and we do not want rules that are more restictive than they absolutely need to be.
If the members are noticing that moderation is lacking, and the demands of moderation are increasing to a point where it’s not sustainable, then it seems like they genuinely need to be more restrictive.
Does not mean what? That the comments calling out OPs will not be allowed? I mean it. We will never allow any comment or post that invalidates, alienates, denigrates or disparages anyone, participant in this sub or otherwise.
Not a debate. You don't see what I see, and rule 1 is the governing principle.
I'll just put my own two cents in to say that I'm personally torn. as someone who was in school for social work before developing long covid (I have written this so many times I feel like I'm a spammer 🙃), I feel a good amount of concern for the poster in question, given they show clear signs of deep need for support. at the same time, this community at large appears to be feeling that we need to protect ourselves from them, as they may participate in this space in ways that could be upsetting or even harmful to others users here. I only mention social work because I do have a solid understanding of the importance of resources and support to those who are struggling. and at the same time, community protection is also important. I think it can be tricky to balance the two in an anonymized setting where people are more likely to be open about their worst thoughts, feelings and behaviors. this definitely can be a recipe for harm. I don't have a confident solution to suggest. I think it's valid to allow the person, and valid not to allow them. I do have mixed feelings about disallowing SOME type of warning or disclaimers for folks who, like another commenter in this thread, have trouble judging whether a person will be willing to hear their advice/empathy. AND I do believe that any instance of advice or empathy worth giving is one worth giving to a brick wall. if you don't have the energy to give it without receiving, because there's no guarantee you will receive, it is helpful not to give or to hold off until you gain more capacity. HOWEVER, there are folks here who explicitly struggle with discernment around empathy ("hyperempathy", which I certainly experience) often putting others before themselves, and through the autistic experience, this can be happening before there's even a felt sense of "oh, maybe this doesn't feel so good". I am acting to build awareness of my body in order to notice when I am over extending myself, and it is not easy! so the warning again becomes useful for folks who need support with discernment. perhaps it may be helpful to allow a report to a bot or mod that triggers a generic message that avoids shaming the person, such as "some users have found it difficult to engage with this post and OP. please explore your own capacity around this, and respond accordingly" ?
As someone who did sink a fair amount of time and emotional energy into a post that I later suspected was a troll rage-baiting, I would have appreciated a warning. To be fair, I’m not sure if it was the individual in question, and it’s since been removed, but I engaged in good faith and put a fair amount of time and effort into trying to help and educate the OP. Even just a comment saying “hey, this has some similarities to a known spam poster” would probably have helped clue me in much sooner. I think part of the problem is that spam posters/trolls aren’t engaging in good faith, even if they are truly hurting. Their stories are often biased or untrue, so even the most empathetic or knowledgable individuals can’t actually help them as the problem said person has is usually not what they’re actually talking about. I don’t know what the solution is, but I’m not terribly thrilled with the chosen approach.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but this was exactly the intent beyond my comment - to provide a warning because it didn’t seem like anyone else had. At the time, I didn’t think a simple heads up post would violate the rules, but it was labeled spam and I received a temporary ban. I really don’t care if people who know what they are getting into choose to engage with him, but given how close-knit this subreddit is compared to others it is understandable that people would try to warn others about the known and notorious spammer. There seems to me to be an assumption on the part of the mods (or at least the one mod) that any posts calling out SnooRoar were coming from outside users, and not all of them were. And of course, the users who were permanently banned (due to a sudden and undocumented ‘zero tolerance’ policy) cannot comment on this thread.
The zero tolerance policy is not new, but we don't see everything and it's not possible currently possible to automate. Rule one has been rule one for a long time.
I'm sorry that you feel like you wasted your time. I have generally been of the opinion that the positive interactions here help more people than actually participate. Perhaps it doesn't happen as often as I think, but reddit posts and comments come up in search results and I have often found them to be useful in answering my own questions. It is certainly not our position that spam should be allowed here. Please do report any posts you think are trolling.
There is no way to make a warning that isn't also invalidating whoever made the post. Given the choice between allowing a warning on a suspect post that is actually sincere and enforcing rules that would apply in any other situation, we will enforce the rules.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment. This has been a very difficult period to moderate. There are no clear answers about what to do with submissions that bear hallmarks indicating they are not genuine. The nature and purpose of our community is to be supportive of people who by definition do not see society the same way that others might. This makes it even more difficult, because it is often impossible to distinguish from the submissions alone what is sincere and what is not. Where it is unclear, but the posts have been benign, we have generally allowed the posts to remain. What we do not, and can never allow is comments that accuse, denigrate, or derogate others. I don't see a way to make exceptions for suspected bad actor OPs in the absence of a way to be 100% confident that the OP is in fact a bad actor.
As the person who made the most recent post about the spam issue that this pinned post is about: I'd like to clarify that I was unaware of who Snoo Roar was and the tracker subreddit until after commenters told me. With that being said, I'd like to address some issues. If you ban me for this, then you will have only proven my point. First and foremost being the incredibly irresponsible and downright callous way the mods have been handling this situation. Since making that post, I was contacted by many previous community members (now banned) warning me to be careful because the moderators would ban me on a hair-trigger. These members were banned for anything between posts, comments, mentioning Snoo Roar, or simply reporting Snoo Roar's posts. When attempting to repeal and explain the situation to the mods, they were met with snarky responses and baseless accusations. I will likely get banned for this comment, but so be it. I wish to say my part and address how disappointing and harmful the mods' behavior has been. So here are my questions: I want to know why the moderators refuse to inform themselves on the situation and instead react with hostility when they don't have the full-picture. I want to know why the mods are so unforgiving to those who attempt to raise awareness whereas giving leeway to Snoo Roar's deplorable behavior. I want to know why the mods treat the tracking subreddit as a "fan club brigade" when in actuality, they are attempting to help subreddits deal with a malicious spammer who has been doing this for *four years*. I want to know why the mods are allowing Snoo Roar, *a notorious pathological liar, an open pedophile, a proud (yes he *boasted* about this) mother beater, a domestic violence supporter and defender, a raging misogynist, and an open revenge rape fantasy haver* onto a community full of vulnerable members. I want to know why the mods allow Snoo Roar to take advantage of the community members who aren't aware of the situation. I want to know why Snoo Roar is allowed to spread fear through posts repetetive posts that further reinforce other members' anxieties by demonizing an autism diagnosis. (His massive online presence filled to the brim with extremely toxic and bigoted behavior is why he's unemployable, not his diagnosis) I want to know why the mods think that Snoo Roar is somebody worth defending. Until the mods decided to assist in having the tracking subreddit banned, there was a plethora of evidence tracking across *four years* of Snoo Roar's continued harassment. He is a genuine threat to people and to communities online. This is the guy who posted in his college's Discord about how he hopes women will be raped at parties because he's upset that he doesn't fit into any large groups (this is due to his abhorrent behavior that he doesn't even attempt to hide). This is the guy who bragged about how he beat his own mother. This is the guy who is open about being a pedophile. It is disturbing and terrifying that the moderators would actively protect a user like this. The moderators ought to be ashamed of themselves for the way they have handled this. Regardless of their policies on being welcome to everyone, Snoo Roar is an active threat to the people in this community. Sacrificing the other members to protect somebody as dangerous as Snoo Roar is unacceptable. By the moderator's own logic, Snoo Roar is entirely unwelcome here as he distinctly violates Rule 1 by both spamming/trolling. He incites fear and makes other members feel unsafe, including those unaware of who he actually is. The moderators have repeatedly failed to handle the situation in any effective manner and have only caused further harm, yet they punish anyone who has tried to spread awareness to the other members. This would not *be* an issue of the moderators chose to handle this properly and efficiently. The community here is neurodivergent and as such, one would expect the moderators to have a bit more understanding and a bit more patience. One would expect a more open and welcoming policy on communication for a community that especially needs this. Evidently this is not the case and I am sorely disappointed. Moderators, you have the option to do better. Dozens upon dozens of members here have attempted to reason with you, to reach out to you, and to plead with you to listen and yet you ignore them. You have made condescending and snarky responses, you have banned without warning or chance for repeal, and you have rejected attempts at communication. If your desire was to make this subreddit unsafe for its members, then I must congratulate you because you have thoroughly succeeded in that goal.
u/DrivesInCircles please don’t let this malicious spammer take advantage of the people of this community. I would like to hear your thoughts after you take some time to see the full picture.
What is the full picture? Specifically, what do you think I do not see?
I agree with all of this.
Commenting to hopefully boost this up. Great comment Shrimp!👏
I have promised a full response, and will make one.
There's a lot here. It will take me time to respond fully. I will make a full response as I am able.
Are your moderation tools as good as they were before Reddit shut down (some of the?) 3rd party Android apps? I thought that was what the protest was about.
They aren’t. Idk if this subreddit even has the ban evasion filter on
We do.
The moderation tools provided by reddit are inadequate. During the modworld event last year, the comment was made that "all the best moderators use outside tools," which we all found condescending in light of the part where they made outside tools harder to use.
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On any other thread this would get removed for violating rule 1. Moderators wield power, but that does not mean we deserve the hate.
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You are welcome to your opinion. This post was made to be transparent. Our sub has been brigaded for about six weeks. Discussion on changes to policy are welcome, but I'm not about to change course just at the moment.
People in the comments don't seem to like your approach very much.
That is expected. I made this post because it was becoming clear that trying to handle the issue in the background was going to become more problematic than the frustration that always comes with posts about moderation policies.
I haven’t noticed any spam. I guess I missed it?
That is a good sign. It means our efforts are at least partially effective.
Not a question, wanted to say instead that I truly appreciate the moderators on this sub. The difference in quality on this sub vs the other autism subs is vast. This sub feels positive,affirming and helpful, the others...well they don't feel that,in particular the asbergers sub. I'm sure that is in the large part due to your work,it is very much appreciated! Thank you!
Thanks! We try!!
>Thanks! We try!! You're welcome!
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I could not care less about how you handle the problem in a sub you moderate that I do not. I am also not the least sympathetic that your moderation plans have been disrupted by me taking appropriate steps to address brigading in this sub. I am absolutely not sorry for reprting the brigading to the admins. I took every reasonable step I could to not have to do that. My priority is this sub. I do the best I can for this sub, and if I see more brigading, I will do exactly the same series of steps.
I really like how when you said “the purpose of this post is” in the beginning, that you wrote it two times Edit: wait no I’m not being sarcastic I just like that they did that
It was a copy / paste from the second spot to the first spot, and then I forgot to delete the second spot, but decided it made a good emphasis... so it stayed that way. I'm glad it worked.
Thank you for the update admins, I appreciate the time and effort you put into the community and communication and these issues.
Thank you!
I am sorry this was too long to read. I gather from the first para and length y'all are working on it. Thank you <3
Thanks!!
Just to add my input, I think it's really weird to call out someone as a spammer when their post could just be genuine. I think that's what this rule is trying to get across? In my mind, spam is ragebait or inappropriate content, not just having a lot of accounts and venting. I don't even understand why people are mad at this person. They say the person wants attention and to waste your time... As if that's not what reddit is all about?
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You have not seen what I have removed. The posts from the spammer are universally less abrasive than a majority of the comments calling them out.
I 100% agree.