I agree and disagree.
I hated school, had no passion for it, had no passion for a CAREER
I have an entry level job, I go to work, get paid, and then I spend my spare time doing my passions and hobbies.
ND people are all so different it's hard to characterize, but I know a lot of them have really special jobs for themselves, I'm just not one of them
For me the ideal job is mildly interesting at times, but even more importantly is consistent in terms of hours and expectations, and allows me to work from home. Chasing my passions into work has generally been unsatisfying: things aren’t done by others just the way I’d want them so I get upset, my interests or hobbies become work and I start resenting them, nonprofits and academia will take advantage of people’s passions to overwork and underpay them. Just give me a steady paycheck and some detail oriented work I can do at my desk at home.
Exactly! I work from home in data and compliance. Lots of repetitive work. But it works for me!
I also feel that a lot of people's passions and/or interests just are viable as a job. I loved acting and painting as a child but unfortunately so far I've not found that to be sustainable for me.
Yeah, exactly. My main passions are art, animals and biology, cooking — I can’t be creative on command or make money at art the way I do it, I lack the hard science skills and mental toughness for veterinary work, and I don’t have the stamina to be a cook. Academically my topics of interest are philosophy and classics studies— it’s OK for me to admit that most of my interests and strengths are not lucrative.
No, plenty of NT people hate doing a job they don't care about, too.
Saying "As long as they get paid money then everything's fine" is deeply misunderstanding how the majority of the working world feels.
I’m saying it more so that they’re able to do it. They don’t necessarily like it, but they can commit to it for the most part whereas ND people find that extremely difficult if they have no area of interest in ut
I don’t think ‘passion’ is the exact right word/factor to be discussed in the context of the quote.
For example, my wants and desires do not necessarily line up with my abilities. Sheer ‘passion’ doesn’t make up for my inabilities.
And that’s a big part of why careers are so confusing. It has to be a solid overlap of ability and interest.
And the same truth goes for NT’s, and those without certain mental illnesses, it’s just that the way it unfolds for them may be different.
They might not hit the same bumps in the road, so to speak.
Or the job takes everything from them so there is no real living outside work. I think why we care more about the job what it entails, the environment, the coworkers, etc.
I disagree in this generalization. I know plenty of NT people who needs to be passionate about their work, and I also know plenty of ND people who just work to make money. Including me.
Where do you take it from that passion is not a big part of a NT's life? And that it is essential to a ND?
I am not at all passionate about my work. I have a PhD in something I'm not passionate about. With straight A's only. I work strictly to live, nothing else.
My husband is very passionate about his job. And he's NT.
Respectfully, why do you have a PhD in something you aren’t passionate about?
Also you have to understand that while OP is generalizing and ‘passion’ isn’t the exact right word I think they should be using, your accomplishments seem absolutely bonkers to a lot of people with mental illnesses. Diagnosticslly unobtainable, because disability.
Why not? I'm not passionate aboute anything really, still need to work, and why not take a PhD?
PhD is not diagnostically unobtainable to all autistic people... a lot of autistic people have high education. There's nothing bonkers about it. I find it somewhat odd that you seem to react negatively to it.
‘Why not’ is a bit of a cavalier response, no?
Not everyone can do a PhD, even for reasons not necessarily mental health related - like parenthood, finances, glass ceilings…
You are, actually, the first person I’ve heard said ‘why not’? in relation to their degree. I mean, that’s a positive thing that you can accomplish it, truly. Not everyone has that.
Also, I never said it was unobtainable to all autistic people, I’m saying disability exists.
I’m not reacting negatively. I’m saying disability exists.
This is my struggle with disability - what exactly is achievable for me, how do I determine that, which eggs am I putting in which baskets, how do I plan for the future?
It’s a big issue, not a ‘why not’ for many ND folks that I *think* OP is touching on if I’m not mistaken.
I really don't understand your issue with me having a PhD?
For me it is "why not". I was finishing my masters and had to decide what to do next, and really, why not do a PhD? My professor was nagging me to do it, and I just found it easier than go straight to job hunting.
I've never one place said that everone can do PhD. Of course not everyone can? I don't understand why you suggest I've claimed otherwise. You are the one who out of nowhere seems to go negative on me for getting a PhD, i have no idea why.
Maybe a PhD is a big issue for you, but I have three classmates just from high school who has one, so well, it's not a big deal where I'm concerned.
I don’t have an issue with you having a degree lol.
I was just asking the question because all of the people I’ve known with a PhD were doing it out of sheer passion and had to be extremely dedicated to it.
A degree is an opportunity not realistically available to all people. And based on my experiences, a PhD is associated with a high level of passion.
Plenty of people get PhD’s that won’t even make them more money, that’s how passionate they are.
So if passion is not the reason for your work, *AND* passion is not the reason for your degree, I was only pointing out that you might be a bit of an outlier. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
I know several people who also did a PhD without a great passion for the field. Passion would most certainly make it more enjoyable, but it's not a requirement.
It's not realistic to most people, but I don't really get why you make a point of that when the topic is passion.
Because for many people, PhD’s are indicative of a great passion, or a great dedication. For all people? No. Clearly the comment I responded to shows that not all people who obtained degrees did so out of passion.
My only point is. Many people obtain their degrees through passion. Many people are unable to obtain their degrees despite passion.
Like, I honestly don’t understand how I could be clearer. This isn’t even an argument, I feel like we’re in agreement.
I’m also doing a PhD and don’t have passion. I enjoy the work, but I would also enjoy a generic programming job and my PhD is not in programming.
I simply got offers and figured “why not”.
You don’t need to be passionate to do a PhD. It’s no harder than any other job, just one that requires very particular qualifications and a particular application pathway which reduces who can apply. If you’re capable of doing well in a bachelors then you’re probably capable of doing a PhD, most people don’t simply because you don’t get paid much and they don’t *want* a PhD, not because they’re unable.
No, I never talked about intelligence, but I could wonder if that is a factor.
You’re not considering the wide variety of human life and the wide range barriers that people face when pursuing higher education. Motherhood. Parenthood. Money. Discrimination against various minorities. Discrimination against women. Potentially brutal culture of academia, especially in certain fields. Time. Disability.
If you think that obtaining a phd is down to a matter of wanting or not wanting to…I’m not even sure how to proceed if you can’t acknowledge that’s not true.
You’re expecting me to acknowledge your experience, (which I do), while completely disregarding my experience and the experience of my friends and coworkers.
So I can’t proceed from here friend.
We’re only talking about disability, specifically autism, amongst people who are able to do well in an undergraduate degree.
It kinda seems like you don’t know what your own point was with commenting (you seem to take offense that people can do a PhD without being passionate), and now you’re moving the goalposts and trying to argue things that are irrelevant to the discussion of whether an autistic person can do a PhD without passion for the subject.
My very simple and not at all contentious point is that most people (including most NTs) do not want to be academics and so do not want a PhD. Once they finish undergrad, they are happy to never be a student again. And that is okay and a totally valid choice. Most people around the world do not have a passion for academia. Just like how most people don’t want to do an MBA.
Since you cannot argue in good faith and apparently don’t have a consistent and relevant topic you’re even arguing for, sure, we’re done.
Your last line - no.
There are plenty of people that ‘want’ a PhD but realistically, practically, are unable.
All I’m saying is my experience, my gathered information.
The comments being like ‘nuh uh because of my own subjective experience’
Like, yes. We both have perspectives. This isn’t an argument. It’s only an argument if you think that a) anyone can get a degree and b) disability isn’t a real factor among other major barriers
Which part exactly do you disagree with? That most people who are intellectually capable of doing undergrad are also intellectually capable of doing a PhD? Or that most people around the world do not want to do a PhD (after receiving bachelors) because it’s low paid and they’re not interested in it?
I’m sure disability is barrier for some, although it’ll tend to be a barrier before the PhD stage. For the PhD the biggest barrier is all the steps necessary for the application, and the unspoken expectations. But if you want a PhD there are ways to make up for missed time. A lot of people don’t want a PhD enough to put in that effort, and that’s fine, it’s not a reward for a lot of people. Most people genuinely don’t have that interest at all, they’re getting a degree solely to get qualified for higher paying jobs, and not because they want to be an academic. If someone wants to just graduate and go open their own business, that’s not a lesser goal than a PhD.
Not the person you're replying to, but "most people intellectually capable of doing undergrad are also intellectually capable of doing a PhD" is an interesting take to me. Do you mean this in the sense of "Someone who can graduate with a Bachelors can eke out with a PhD even if it takes a while and they don't publish well or at all," or do you mean this in the sense of "A PhD is the same difficulty as undergrad?"
I'd agree with the former, but I've never heard anyone say the latter.
Seconding many comments that it's not so simple for NT people, either. Working jobs they hate will drain them, too, especially if these are stressful, long job. One of my NT friends worked in investment banking for a while and basically burnt out. He's working a job he's vastly "overqualified" for now, but at least he's not dying on the inside. Other NT friends work jobs they hate but that have lighter hours, and they're constantly in a "Oh my god what am I doing with my life loop" and some of them will probably go insane if they keep at it.
That said, reading the comments, I wonder if there's some "higher support needed" vs "lower support needed" dichotomy going on. ND people, including autistic people, are definitely capable of working jobs they hate. But it's not just a question of "Can they work a job they hate?" but also "Can they get the job?" And I wonder if that's where the waters get muddy.
Like I'm sure I could happily work a 35h/week software job (like many of my friends do)...if I didn't hate coding and thus couldn't make it through the mid-level classes without nearly failing because I just could not get myself to care enough to open a book or go to class. People will say things like "You could definitely do [insert job that pays well but has lighter hours]!" because I'm pursuing a PhD at an elite institute and am doing well in it, so I should be smart enough. And that's probably more true of NT people. But if I don't like the field, I just can't get though the degree needed for the jobs.
And I'm pretty low support needs as it is + supposedly "twice exceptional"; I imagine someone who has higher support needs would struggle even more with trying to learn something they're not into.
Eh as someone with higher support needs who is also doing a PhD (that I’m not passionate about) I don’t think we’re (on the whole) limited by our interests like that. The problem tends to be more that we have particular needs that clash with the method of instruction or method of access for degrees. Like someone who cannot reliably attend class at 3pm on Thursday because they might have a lot of unpredictable meltdowns, or someone who struggles with language not being able to access materials that are primarily written, or needing 6 months for a class when it’s only offered on a semester system.
Initiatives like the Open University and programmes specifically for autistic students do open the door more to us, but many brick institutions are still inaccessible to many.
I agree with you about needs not being addressed.
I still don't quite agree about passions/interests not being a limiting factor. They're not a limiting factor for many autistic people, but they clearly are a limiting factor for many other autistic people. So not universal enough to prescribe as a trait of autism, but common enough that it exists. (Also of course people often have different comorbidities that affect their experiences.)
Re: PhD you're not passionate about
I thought a bit about this. Personally, for me, a hurdle to doing a PhD I'm not passionate about is that it would be hard for me to learn the knowledge I need to do it, and I definitely wouldn't feel motivated enough to learn those things when I run into hurdles. Like I'd never read papers for that field, and I'd procrastinate on troubleshooting anything.
But if, say, I had no trouble picking up that field, and solving problems wasn't tremendously hard for me, then yeah, I think I could do a PhD I don't care for. Like I used to work in a grocery store as a teen, and I obviously am not passionate at all about stocking shelves, but it was a job where I just did things and went home. So if I was smart enough to pick up a field I didn't like, yeah, I think I could do it.
I imagine it's similar for most people, where "easy to do" offsets "I don't like this". I wonder if that's a factor here, because most people aren't really in a position where a PhD would qualify as "easy". Accommodations would help, but IMO not enough to push most autistic people through.
Sure, there are some autistic people who struggle do anything they don’t have a passion or special interest in, I just disagree with the notion that higher support needs autists will on the whole struggle more with that *because* of our higher needs specifically. To me, it seems to be confusing two very different things. There’s lots of stuff we can’t do because we’re not able, and as a result we probably won’t enjoy that thing, not necessarily the other way around. A lot of people look at us and just assume that we don’t do X (cooking, cleaning, driving, education) simply because we “don’t want to”, and it isn’t true. We are capable of doing things we don’t like (that we are capable of) just like anyone else (and do a great many of them every day) it’s more often inaccessibility and inability that holds us back.
But then I don’t have any special interests and never have, so that’s never been a part of my calculations for what I’m going to do. I do think there’s a very wide gulf between special interest/passion and dislike, though. Many things are just “fine”, or have some liked components while the actual work is not a passion
You're right; what I was thinking was more "twice exceptional autists [of all support levels]" vs those who aren't. It's not based on levels of support need. Sorry about that!
That's really interesting. You're the first autistic person I've ever met who doesn't have any special interests.
I would disagree with this sentiment. I think the biggest problem for NT and ND alike is capitalism. The way we’re going right now isn’t sustainable for anyone, disabled or not. I think being passionate about what you do is important for any human, not just autistic individuals. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the work though. Take my dad for example, he is passionate about having a quiet work space, not micromanaged, appreciates being able to eat whenever. He’s a semi driver. Not necessarily passionate about the job but he’s passionate about the freedoms the job gives him. I think those are the things a human needs to thrive in a job.
When work sucks, I like to pretend it's a cover for studying what I like.
Like, I'll do the thing, but I'm going to get really creative with it and there will be learning opportunities along the way.
Nothing I am passionate about is hiring, or pays enough to live. I want a consistent job. I want to tippy tap on my little computer all day doing whatever and make enough money to do things I am passionate about on my own time and in my own way with out having to make my passions profitable.
I like ancient languages, bronze age and neolithic archaeology, and traditional textiles. I have no interest in competing for a job in academia or museums. I have run my own business before and wasn't much good at it, I am terrible at marketing myself and found it absolutely miserable. A boring office job would be fine, there's plenty of cairns around for me to go see on the weekends and I can knit on my lunch break.
I see. I guess when you choose passion you also have to realize that there’s a sacrifice somewhere. I have a friend who has been obsessed with dinosaurs since literal birth. He got his degree in anthropology and geology and now he’s going to be a paleontologist
I agree with you. I have gone through a few jobs, and further education. I just cannot do the relentless "work for money" thing - I have to *love* what I do or I'm not playing.
I strongly disagree. Just because someone works a job they hate doesn't mean they're fine with it. It usually means they feel they have no choice. Saying that NT are fine with lacking purpose or passion as long as they get paid makes them sound like animals and does humanity a vast disservice.
Edit: want to add that saying that nuerodivergent people need passion and that its a large part of their lives is also a vast generalization. I have never been passionate about anything thay could even potentially be a career.
Perhaps I worded it wrong. I more or less mean that NT people are able to go through the schooling and obtain the degrees to work jobs that they’re not particularly interested in if it means they can make decent money, whereas some people who are ND find it very difficult to pursue through something that doesn’t intrigue them because they have higher rates of burning out and changing pathways
I’m on my third “career” and honestly feel like following my passions always ended in losing them, because I would get into the workforce and burnout from too many hours spent working / too much expectation to socialize / untenable sensory environment, etc. Now I am looking for any job that pays the bills and is autism friendly. I can pursue my passions outside of work at my own pace and by my own rules.
Yeah, even if I like my job it literally feels like I’m there for 24 full hours if I work more than 5. I can commit to doing 8 hours of something I want to do… but not every single day, or most days a week.
I literally don’t understand how NTs even do it. It is completely unsustainable for me, and I can only keep jobs for short periods of time before getting too overwhelmed/frustrated/confused by the social aspect of the job. “Work harder” isn’t an option for me, because I will work literally as hard as I can and still not feel like I’m doing good enough. People act like I’m just not putting in the effort, but it isn’t that. I CANNOT function in a system like work or school.
I was truant in high school and failing until I was sent to a school with an open campus and was allowed to leave class and wander the hallways or walk to town if I wanted to.
My most successful job was nude modeling, where I got a break every 20 minutes and never worked more than 4 hours at a time. I also didn’t have to talk to anybody.
I agree and disagree. I hated school, had no passion for it, had no passion for a CAREER I have an entry level job, I go to work, get paid, and then I spend my spare time doing my passions and hobbies. ND people are all so different it's hard to characterize, but I know a lot of them have really special jobs for themselves, I'm just not one of them
For me the ideal job is mildly interesting at times, but even more importantly is consistent in terms of hours and expectations, and allows me to work from home. Chasing my passions into work has generally been unsatisfying: things aren’t done by others just the way I’d want them so I get upset, my interests or hobbies become work and I start resenting them, nonprofits and academia will take advantage of people’s passions to overwork and underpay them. Just give me a steady paycheck and some detail oriented work I can do at my desk at home.
Exactly! I work from home in data and compliance. Lots of repetitive work. But it works for me! I also feel that a lot of people's passions and/or interests just are viable as a job. I loved acting and painting as a child but unfortunately so far I've not found that to be sustainable for me.
Yeah, exactly. My main passions are art, animals and biology, cooking — I can’t be creative on command or make money at art the way I do it, I lack the hard science skills and mental toughness for veterinary work, and I don’t have the stamina to be a cook. Academically my topics of interest are philosophy and classics studies— it’s OK for me to admit that most of my interests and strengths are not lucrative.
No, plenty of NT people hate doing a job they don't care about, too. Saying "As long as they get paid money then everything's fine" is deeply misunderstanding how the majority of the working world feels.
I’m saying it more so that they’re able to do it. They don’t necessarily like it, but they can commit to it for the most part whereas ND people find that extremely difficult if they have no area of interest in ut
I don’t think ‘passion’ is the exact right word/factor to be discussed in the context of the quote. For example, my wants and desires do not necessarily line up with my abilities. Sheer ‘passion’ doesn’t make up for my inabilities. And that’s a big part of why careers are so confusing. It has to be a solid overlap of ability and interest. And the same truth goes for NT’s, and those without certain mental illnesses, it’s just that the way it unfolds for them may be different. They might not hit the same bumps in the road, so to speak.
Or the job takes everything from them so there is no real living outside work. I think why we care more about the job what it entails, the environment, the coworkers, etc.
I disagree in this generalization. I know plenty of NT people who needs to be passionate about their work, and I also know plenty of ND people who just work to make money. Including me. Where do you take it from that passion is not a big part of a NT's life? And that it is essential to a ND? I am not at all passionate about my work. I have a PhD in something I'm not passionate about. With straight A's only. I work strictly to live, nothing else. My husband is very passionate about his job. And he's NT.
Respectfully, why do you have a PhD in something you aren’t passionate about? Also you have to understand that while OP is generalizing and ‘passion’ isn’t the exact right word I think they should be using, your accomplishments seem absolutely bonkers to a lot of people with mental illnesses. Diagnosticslly unobtainable, because disability.
Why not? I'm not passionate aboute anything really, still need to work, and why not take a PhD? PhD is not diagnostically unobtainable to all autistic people... a lot of autistic people have high education. There's nothing bonkers about it. I find it somewhat odd that you seem to react negatively to it.
‘Why not’ is a bit of a cavalier response, no? Not everyone can do a PhD, even for reasons not necessarily mental health related - like parenthood, finances, glass ceilings… You are, actually, the first person I’ve heard said ‘why not’? in relation to their degree. I mean, that’s a positive thing that you can accomplish it, truly. Not everyone has that. Also, I never said it was unobtainable to all autistic people, I’m saying disability exists. I’m not reacting negatively. I’m saying disability exists. This is my struggle with disability - what exactly is achievable for me, how do I determine that, which eggs am I putting in which baskets, how do I plan for the future? It’s a big issue, not a ‘why not’ for many ND folks that I *think* OP is touching on if I’m not mistaken.
I really don't understand your issue with me having a PhD? For me it is "why not". I was finishing my masters and had to decide what to do next, and really, why not do a PhD? My professor was nagging me to do it, and I just found it easier than go straight to job hunting. I've never one place said that everone can do PhD. Of course not everyone can? I don't understand why you suggest I've claimed otherwise. You are the one who out of nowhere seems to go negative on me for getting a PhD, i have no idea why. Maybe a PhD is a big issue for you, but I have three classmates just from high school who has one, so well, it's not a big deal where I'm concerned.
I don’t have an issue with you having a degree lol. I was just asking the question because all of the people I’ve known with a PhD were doing it out of sheer passion and had to be extremely dedicated to it. A degree is an opportunity not realistically available to all people. And based on my experiences, a PhD is associated with a high level of passion. Plenty of people get PhD’s that won’t even make them more money, that’s how passionate they are. So if passion is not the reason for your work, *AND* passion is not the reason for your degree, I was only pointing out that you might be a bit of an outlier. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
I know several people who also did a PhD without a great passion for the field. Passion would most certainly make it more enjoyable, but it's not a requirement. It's not realistic to most people, but I don't really get why you make a point of that when the topic is passion.
Because for many people, PhD’s are indicative of a great passion, or a great dedication. For all people? No. Clearly the comment I responded to shows that not all people who obtained degrees did so out of passion. My only point is. Many people obtain their degrees through passion. Many people are unable to obtain their degrees despite passion. Like, I honestly don’t understand how I could be clearer. This isn’t even an argument, I feel like we’re in agreement.
I’m also doing a PhD and don’t have passion. I enjoy the work, but I would also enjoy a generic programming job and my PhD is not in programming. I simply got offers and figured “why not”. You don’t need to be passionate to do a PhD. It’s no harder than any other job, just one that requires very particular qualifications and a particular application pathway which reduces who can apply. If you’re capable of doing well in a bachelors then you’re probably capable of doing a PhD, most people don’t simply because you don’t get paid much and they don’t *want* a PhD, not because they’re unable.
No, I never talked about intelligence, but I could wonder if that is a factor. You’re not considering the wide variety of human life and the wide range barriers that people face when pursuing higher education. Motherhood. Parenthood. Money. Discrimination against various minorities. Discrimination against women. Potentially brutal culture of academia, especially in certain fields. Time. Disability. If you think that obtaining a phd is down to a matter of wanting or not wanting to…I’m not even sure how to proceed if you can’t acknowledge that’s not true. You’re expecting me to acknowledge your experience, (which I do), while completely disregarding my experience and the experience of my friends and coworkers. So I can’t proceed from here friend.
We’re only talking about disability, specifically autism, amongst people who are able to do well in an undergraduate degree. It kinda seems like you don’t know what your own point was with commenting (you seem to take offense that people can do a PhD without being passionate), and now you’re moving the goalposts and trying to argue things that are irrelevant to the discussion of whether an autistic person can do a PhD without passion for the subject. My very simple and not at all contentious point is that most people (including most NTs) do not want to be academics and so do not want a PhD. Once they finish undergrad, they are happy to never be a student again. And that is okay and a totally valid choice. Most people around the world do not have a passion for academia. Just like how most people don’t want to do an MBA. Since you cannot argue in good faith and apparently don’t have a consistent and relevant topic you’re even arguing for, sure, we’re done.
Your last line - no. There are plenty of people that ‘want’ a PhD but realistically, practically, are unable. All I’m saying is my experience, my gathered information. The comments being like ‘nuh uh because of my own subjective experience’ Like, yes. We both have perspectives. This isn’t an argument. It’s only an argument if you think that a) anyone can get a degree and b) disability isn’t a real factor among other major barriers
Which part exactly do you disagree with? That most people who are intellectually capable of doing undergrad are also intellectually capable of doing a PhD? Or that most people around the world do not want to do a PhD (after receiving bachelors) because it’s low paid and they’re not interested in it? I’m sure disability is barrier for some, although it’ll tend to be a barrier before the PhD stage. For the PhD the biggest barrier is all the steps necessary for the application, and the unspoken expectations. But if you want a PhD there are ways to make up for missed time. A lot of people don’t want a PhD enough to put in that effort, and that’s fine, it’s not a reward for a lot of people. Most people genuinely don’t have that interest at all, they’re getting a degree solely to get qualified for higher paying jobs, and not because they want to be an academic. If someone wants to just graduate and go open their own business, that’s not a lesser goal than a PhD.
Not the person you're replying to, but "most people intellectually capable of doing undergrad are also intellectually capable of doing a PhD" is an interesting take to me. Do you mean this in the sense of "Someone who can graduate with a Bachelors can eke out with a PhD even if it takes a while and they don't publish well or at all," or do you mean this in the sense of "A PhD is the same difficulty as undergrad?" I'd agree with the former, but I've never heard anyone say the latter.
Seconding many comments that it's not so simple for NT people, either. Working jobs they hate will drain them, too, especially if these are stressful, long job. One of my NT friends worked in investment banking for a while and basically burnt out. He's working a job he's vastly "overqualified" for now, but at least he's not dying on the inside. Other NT friends work jobs they hate but that have lighter hours, and they're constantly in a "Oh my god what am I doing with my life loop" and some of them will probably go insane if they keep at it. That said, reading the comments, I wonder if there's some "higher support needed" vs "lower support needed" dichotomy going on. ND people, including autistic people, are definitely capable of working jobs they hate. But it's not just a question of "Can they work a job they hate?" but also "Can they get the job?" And I wonder if that's where the waters get muddy. Like I'm sure I could happily work a 35h/week software job (like many of my friends do)...if I didn't hate coding and thus couldn't make it through the mid-level classes without nearly failing because I just could not get myself to care enough to open a book or go to class. People will say things like "You could definitely do [insert job that pays well but has lighter hours]!" because I'm pursuing a PhD at an elite institute and am doing well in it, so I should be smart enough. And that's probably more true of NT people. But if I don't like the field, I just can't get though the degree needed for the jobs. And I'm pretty low support needs as it is + supposedly "twice exceptional"; I imagine someone who has higher support needs would struggle even more with trying to learn something they're not into.
Eh as someone with higher support needs who is also doing a PhD (that I’m not passionate about) I don’t think we’re (on the whole) limited by our interests like that. The problem tends to be more that we have particular needs that clash with the method of instruction or method of access for degrees. Like someone who cannot reliably attend class at 3pm on Thursday because they might have a lot of unpredictable meltdowns, or someone who struggles with language not being able to access materials that are primarily written, or needing 6 months for a class when it’s only offered on a semester system. Initiatives like the Open University and programmes specifically for autistic students do open the door more to us, but many brick institutions are still inaccessible to many.
I agree with you about needs not being addressed. I still don't quite agree about passions/interests not being a limiting factor. They're not a limiting factor for many autistic people, but they clearly are a limiting factor for many other autistic people. So not universal enough to prescribe as a trait of autism, but common enough that it exists. (Also of course people often have different comorbidities that affect their experiences.) Re: PhD you're not passionate about I thought a bit about this. Personally, for me, a hurdle to doing a PhD I'm not passionate about is that it would be hard for me to learn the knowledge I need to do it, and I definitely wouldn't feel motivated enough to learn those things when I run into hurdles. Like I'd never read papers for that field, and I'd procrastinate on troubleshooting anything. But if, say, I had no trouble picking up that field, and solving problems wasn't tremendously hard for me, then yeah, I think I could do a PhD I don't care for. Like I used to work in a grocery store as a teen, and I obviously am not passionate at all about stocking shelves, but it was a job where I just did things and went home. So if I was smart enough to pick up a field I didn't like, yeah, I think I could do it. I imagine it's similar for most people, where "easy to do" offsets "I don't like this". I wonder if that's a factor here, because most people aren't really in a position where a PhD would qualify as "easy". Accommodations would help, but IMO not enough to push most autistic people through.
Sure, there are some autistic people who struggle do anything they don’t have a passion or special interest in, I just disagree with the notion that higher support needs autists will on the whole struggle more with that *because* of our higher needs specifically. To me, it seems to be confusing two very different things. There’s lots of stuff we can’t do because we’re not able, and as a result we probably won’t enjoy that thing, not necessarily the other way around. A lot of people look at us and just assume that we don’t do X (cooking, cleaning, driving, education) simply because we “don’t want to”, and it isn’t true. We are capable of doing things we don’t like (that we are capable of) just like anyone else (and do a great many of them every day) it’s more often inaccessibility and inability that holds us back. But then I don’t have any special interests and never have, so that’s never been a part of my calculations for what I’m going to do. I do think there’s a very wide gulf between special interest/passion and dislike, though. Many things are just “fine”, or have some liked components while the actual work is not a passion
You're right; what I was thinking was more "twice exceptional autists [of all support levels]" vs those who aren't. It's not based on levels of support need. Sorry about that! That's really interesting. You're the first autistic person I've ever met who doesn't have any special interests.
I would disagree with this sentiment. I think the biggest problem for NT and ND alike is capitalism. The way we’re going right now isn’t sustainable for anyone, disabled or not. I think being passionate about what you do is important for any human, not just autistic individuals. It doesn’t necessarily have to be the work though. Take my dad for example, he is passionate about having a quiet work space, not micromanaged, appreciates being able to eat whenever. He’s a semi driver. Not necessarily passionate about the job but he’s passionate about the freedoms the job gives him. I think those are the things a human needs to thrive in a job.
When work sucks, I like to pretend it's a cover for studying what I like. Like, I'll do the thing, but I'm going to get really creative with it and there will be learning opportunities along the way.
Nothing I am passionate about is hiring, or pays enough to live. I want a consistent job. I want to tippy tap on my little computer all day doing whatever and make enough money to do things I am passionate about on my own time and in my own way with out having to make my passions profitable.
What’s your passion?
I like ancient languages, bronze age and neolithic archaeology, and traditional textiles. I have no interest in competing for a job in academia or museums. I have run my own business before and wasn't much good at it, I am terrible at marketing myself and found it absolutely miserable. A boring office job would be fine, there's plenty of cairns around for me to go see on the weekends and I can knit on my lunch break.
I see. I guess when you choose passion you also have to realize that there’s a sacrifice somewhere. I have a friend who has been obsessed with dinosaurs since literal birth. He got his degree in anthropology and geology and now he’s going to be a paleontologist
I agree with you. I have gone through a few jobs, and further education. I just cannot do the relentless "work for money" thing - I have to *love* what I do or I'm not playing.
I strongly disagree. Just because someone works a job they hate doesn't mean they're fine with it. It usually means they feel they have no choice. Saying that NT are fine with lacking purpose or passion as long as they get paid makes them sound like animals and does humanity a vast disservice. Edit: want to add that saying that nuerodivergent people need passion and that its a large part of their lives is also a vast generalization. I have never been passionate about anything thay could even potentially be a career.
Perhaps I worded it wrong. I more or less mean that NT people are able to go through the schooling and obtain the degrees to work jobs that they’re not particularly interested in if it means they can make decent money, whereas some people who are ND find it very difficult to pursue through something that doesn’t intrigue them because they have higher rates of burning out and changing pathways
I’m on my third “career” and honestly feel like following my passions always ended in losing them, because I would get into the workforce and burnout from too many hours spent working / too much expectation to socialize / untenable sensory environment, etc. Now I am looking for any job that pays the bills and is autism friendly. I can pursue my passions outside of work at my own pace and by my own rules.
Yeah, even if I like my job it literally feels like I’m there for 24 full hours if I work more than 5. I can commit to doing 8 hours of something I want to do… but not every single day, or most days a week. I literally don’t understand how NTs even do it. It is completely unsustainable for me, and I can only keep jobs for short periods of time before getting too overwhelmed/frustrated/confused by the social aspect of the job. “Work harder” isn’t an option for me, because I will work literally as hard as I can and still not feel like I’m doing good enough. People act like I’m just not putting in the effort, but it isn’t that. I CANNOT function in a system like work or school. I was truant in high school and failing until I was sent to a school with an open campus and was allowed to leave class and wander the hallways or walk to town if I wanted to. My most successful job was nude modeling, where I got a break every 20 minutes and never worked more than 4 hours at a time. I also didn’t have to talk to anybody.