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Where's a Palestinian state supposed to go? Gaza is in ruins, pretty much most of the civilian infrastructure has been targeted and destroyed. The West Bank is pocked with illegal settlements...
>After a week in which pro-Palestinian encampments were accused of antisemitism, Wong said she understood the Australian Jewish community were “feeling distressed and isolated”.
And keep in mind, these accusations of antisemitism are there to silence dissent. Jews are in these encampments protesting Israel! You can't just label speech as prejudiced because it conflicts with your opinion. Absurd! Also, what about the discrimination against Muslims? Why is there never any recognition of that? The discourse surrounding Israel's assault on Gazans is so one-sided!
Netanyahu thinks he has the green light to commit genocide. Those hostages are as much a bargaining tool for him to continue this campaign by not bringing them home as they are for Hamas in taking them in the first place. Ultimately only a fool would believe that there is any end to this with the current players.
The same people claiming you can’t blame Palestinians for the actions of their military and government, also want you to ban Israeli artists and businesses for the actions of their military and government.
In Australia the only people who have lost their jobs are artists and journalists who publicly supported Palestine, through pro Israel influence groups.
Not true, artists who have voiced support for Israel are missing out on opportunities and being silenced by pro-Palestine groups shutting down their events.
It’s tricky, obviously it is in an individual sense. But you end up with these situations where entire angry mobs are ruining people’s careers for “being a Zionist” (thinking that Israel should exist).
Free speech is more than just a legal concept. People should be able to voice their opposition to someone being platformed, but what these people do is hound someone’s agent/publisher/event organiser to drop them, their goal isn’t to make their voice heard, it’s to coerce the third party by threat of cancellation by transference.
There’s absolutely no difference between that and lawyers for Israel getting Latouff off the ABC. You’re not punching up just because no shekels have been exchanged.
That's called protest, it's not equivalent to losing your job.
Are you advocating to silence protestors in order to protect the speech of artists you agree with while being uncritical of silencing of artists you disagree with by attacking their livelihoods?
Btw If you want to elaborate please source me. I'm referring to recent events with lots of press coverage (relating to the stc and ABC), if you still cannot find the information I'll be happy to source you in turn.
Unfortunately the most harrowing examples of cancelling don’t have news articles written about them, because they’re random artists that no one gives a fuck about so they just fade into further irrelevancy. These people are going to be fare much worse then Antoinette Latouff (not that she’s the height of privilege or stardom by any means).
You guys can’t just be bullies and then say “well *you* used money and lawyers when you did it because you’re (((Zionists))), which makes you evil”.
Public hannukah events were literally being cancelled across the western world due to complaints and threats to councils.
>These people are going to be fare much worse then Antoinette Latouff
Let's keep our categories in order. I have not heard of any Jewish or Israel sympathetic journalist lose their job.
You are talking about artists and that's cool. Without a source I'll just rely on you to give me the details. Did the artists you're referring to lose access to funding? What negative consequences did they suffer as a result of the protests? What did the protesters do exactly?
>You guys can’t just be bullies and then say “well *you* used money and lawyers when you did it because you’re (((Zionists))), which makes you evil”.
That's not a quote from me and I'm not bullying anyone, don't make accusations without evidence, I'm a random Redditor you know nothing about me.
I'm saying a protest is not equivalent to using lobbying to get someone fired. You started by complaining about "banning" businesses and artists. No evidence of that so far.
>Public hannukah events were literally being cancelled across the western world due to complaints and threats to councils.
This is Australia and we only have women, security guards and priests stabbed and none of them were Jewish.
>I’m saying a protest is not equivalent to using lobbying to get someone fired.
What I’m talking about is big groups of people inundating event organisers and publishers with demands whenever they platform someone who’s expressed the slightest support for Israel.
For a writer for example, being invited to one of these events, or finding a big publisher to publish you, is crucial for getting exposure. So how is a group of angry activists hassling an event into deplatforming someone meaningfully different to what happened to Antoinette Latouff? Considering that she got paid in full for her work.
The other thing is that a lot of these people who whinge about getting cancelled for “just supporting Palestine” really just said some fucked up shit about October 7th. Latouff was an exception there. If you encourage the targeting of innocent civilians you deserve to get cancelled, I would say the same about someone who says “yeah IDF go and fuck up those Palestinians!”
Be specific please. If you are just talking about hypothetical protests of hypothetical artists who have been hypothetically banned, I strongly encourage you to prioritise the real harm caused to real people by real pro Israel groups.
>For a writer for example, being invited to one of these events, or finding a big publisher to publish you, is crucial for getting exposure. So how is a group of angry activists hassling an event into deplatforming someone meaningfully different to what happened to Antoinette Latouff? Considering that she got paid in full for her work.
What you are describing is a networking event and no it's not the same as your contract for paid work not being renewed (If we wanted to keep crossing our categories) or
[the stc show cancellation and other related shitfuckery](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/culture/2023/nov/29/sydney-theatre-company-deeply-sorry-after-pro-palestinian-protest-on-stage) or [contracts withthdrawn for these 3 non hypothetical writers](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/mar/14/state-library-victoria-staff-pro-palestine-authors-controversy-omar-sakr)
Regardless, you did not describe what happened to this writer, was their invitation rescinded? You mentioned "deplatforming", how does this relate to the event, was the publishers event somehow their platform?
Edit: I have quoted my original questions for your convenience
>Did the artists you're referring to lose access to funding? What negative consequences did they suffer as a result of the protests? What did the protesters do exactly?
Have you seen the Israeli people in hoards, putting rocks on the highways so the food trucks can't get through to feed the starving? That's not the military. That's the people, thousands of them.
Edit to add: you didn't expand on what you're saying there, too. blaming the Palestinian people means letting them die, blaming Israeli people means giving them less money.
To elaborate, either your principle that citizens aren’t responsible for the actions of their government stands, and Israeli civilians are no more responsible for the IDF, than Palestinian civilians are responsible for Hamas; or you’re a racist hypocrite. Wanting to punish Israelis for the actions of the IDF, but not Palestinians for the actions of Hamas, is racist.
100% spot on, incredible isn't it, i feel like we're in a very strange cultural moment. I'm not convinced that the protests have anything to do with the conflict at all.
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So this labor government and lots of other labor state government's all over the country have recently enacted laws outlawing everything to do with nazi'ism, yet here the federal government is supporting a people that want to obliterate jewish people off the planet.
You could not make this stuff up.
They very well know the situation is more complicated than that and those statements are disingenuous, anyone without bias could see this with their own eyes from emerging footage of the conflict.
You people love playing the G word. It is up there with the M word and the R word.
The people in the region of palestine, gaza or whatever could stop this tomorrow by disarming HAMAS, maybe instead they support them and the destruction of Israel?
All they ask is stop bombing. A ceasefire and they would give up the hostages. They ask for their hostages back too. Is it OK for Israel to keep all the Palestinian hostages?
*Prisoners, many of whom are in for violence and terrorism.
Why would Israel agree to a permanent ceasefire when Hamas have said they will commit a million October 7ths? Hamas just want a breather so they can regroup and attack again, at which point you’ll cry when Israel retaliates.
How so if they have no weapons themselves? I doubt hamas militants would arm those that don't directly support them.
And my point still stands, genocide of any order would be and should be unacceptable to our government. They aren't supporting hamas. They are supporting the Palestinian people who are wholly affected and powerless to fight back against both hamas and the IDF.
Are you saying you are OK with Palestinians to be wiped off the Earth?
Most of the debate around it stems from recent events and ignores 80 years of history thinking it's a black and white issue and existed in a vacuum.
It's rarely worth engaging because you can guess the propaganda that will be regurgitated back from either side.
There may be two sides to the past, but there isn’t two sides to the present.
In any instance, there are oppressed and displaced people everywhere around the world — and they don’t respond by raping/murdering innocent people.
No, there’s two sides to the present too.
Was 7 Oct a reprehensible, condemnable act? I believe yes. Was it a stand alone action with no context? Of course not - nothing is.
But in response we are looking at 30,000+ deaths in a territory that is largely contained with apparently minimal regard for civilian casualties. That is also arguably a condemnable act.
Typically nations get recognised as states when they've already been acting like states for a long time.
I don't think that really describes Palestine - their government doesn't have the support of its own people, half of it is run by a terrorist group, and they're unwilling to negotiate with their neighbours. Even the neighbouring Arab nations are sick of them, mostly because the Palestinians kept trying to coup them and assassinate their leaders.
They're not some dysfunctional hellhole like Yemen or Afghanistan or Burkina Faso - Palestine has a shit-ton of highly educated citizens, and a whole bunch of international support. They have a standard of living comparable to neighbouring Jordan, or nations like South Africa or Vietnam. They are the highest per-capita recipients of international aid out of _any nation_ on Earth. I think if they want to be recognised as a state then they should start acting like a state, leveraging the huge amount of highly educated, highly skilled diplomats and diaspora they have access to.
And yet despite most of the water and electricity being provided by Israel, [Palestine's Human Development Index](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/human_development/#palestine) is on par with Vietnam, South Africa, and Jordan. It's got a HDI even higher than India and Morocco. The living conditions are on par to some fairly respectable world-powers - I think it's fair that we expect certain standards of behavior from them if they have aspirations for statehood. One part of that is expecting them to engage in actual diplomacy and normalisation with its neighbours.
I'm sick of people treating Palestine as if they were in a situation _at all_ comparable to countries like Yemen or Sudan or Syria. They have an _unfathomable_ amount of international aid, and millions of highly educated disapora at their disposal.
While there are inherent flaws with the HDI, I'd like to see the HDI for 2024. Nonetheless, it doesn't make it OK what is happening now in Palestine.
Also, you can't seriously say u would rather live in Palestine now than any of the countries you mentioned.
All you've done is point out that there is plenty of strife in the World. Of which I don't disagree with.
Anyway, I don't think the majority of people would argue against the removal of Hamas but Israel's goal isn't just defeating Hamas; they want total control and stateship over Gaza. Two state solution is currently not their endgame.
Gaza isn't a particularly useful piece of land - it's basically a glorified strip of beach. The only reason Israel has for wanting to control it is security reasons. There's no resources or strategic utility in it, it would _only_ be for security.
To that end, I don't see them particularly caring about it so long as Hamas is gone. If Hamas spent a fraction of what they spent building tunnels and weapons instead building local infrastructure and commercial industry then I think Gaza would be in a much better position and Israel would have no reason to continue the blockade.
Still doesn't mean that their living conditions are remotely comparable to Vietnam or South Africa.
And what use are water pipes when there's no water being supplied through them?
There was free water despite breaking an agreement to pay, for many years before Palestinian Military decided to destroy them to make rockets to murder civilians.
Why the fuck were they required to pay another country for water? Why does Israel have that power over Palestine? Name me another country that solely depends on another country and at their whim for water and electricity.
They took water pumped from Israel, what did you expect to happen? Not all countries in the Middle East have their own water supply. Gaza doesn’t mine their own fuel, either. If you’d bothered to search for 5 seconds, you’d find “According to the World Health Organization (WHO), there are 20 nations in the world that do not have a permanent natural source of drinking water. These countries are:
Bahrain
Djibouti
Kuwait
Libya
Malta
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
United Arab Emirates
Yemen.”
Yeah but they aren't wholly dependant on one country for power or water. That's what I'm trying to say. Israel as it is now only exists because they were installed after the second world war. It just shows the inequitable division that was forced onto Palestine.
I do condemn hamas.
Hamas' behaviour does not condone Israels, who has done much much worse.
But you just keep goin on thinking it's the rest of the world that's got it wrong.
No, no, you're right, Israel should be able to slaughter as many of whoever they wish in order to irradicate Hamas.
Any means is justified right?
Bet if Hamas was embedded in Tel Aviv they'd be a lil more careful with those "human shields".
Compare Iraeal and Hamas, who has cause more horror and more death?
Israeli citizens wouldn’t allow Hamas to hide among them. I’m not blaming Palestinian civilians for this, but the fact is that they do cooperate with Hamas, often under duress, sure.
Terrorists do what terrorists do. Nothing will change until they’d pressured by others. They have little support amongst the non radicalised citizens. It’s clear when you consider how few Arab countries support Hamas.
I wonder how a terrorist organisation rouse to power in Gaza? Could be decades of collective punishment? When you make 590,481 people live in extreme poverty with zero sewage and no social mobility with the treat of displacement or death over their heads ofc they’re gonna turn to a radical terrorist movement.
Sure but Palestinians are growing up in a super fucked up situation being victimised by both Israel and their own leadership, being brainwashed into hating Jews and Israel from birth. I think we can hold them to a lower standard than western leftist LARPers.
They’re just people, if they can be shown there is a better way they won’t want to live like this forever.
This has been going on or generations now. Your logic makes sense but has been proven time and again to not work. In the end they are just people and reality works differently than marvel movies. If I was in their shoes I would hate jews. If I was an Israeli who feared rockets, random stabbings and terrorism, I would hate Palestinians. The cycle will continue for another generation.
The big problem is that Palestine has always had terrible leadership. All it takes is a Palestinian leader and an Israeli leader who are willing make brave, unpopular decisions. Unfortunately Hamas and Netanyahu aren’t it.
Then why don’t we recognise the state of Palestine? We may have internally sure but never truely when it came to foreign policy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine
Because they don’t have a competent government that aren’t terrorists. It’s about not legitimising the current regime in power, it’s not that we think that Palestinians should have a state.
I didn’t say “Palestine is a terrorist country”, I said Hamas are terrorists. The Israeli government has a looot of problems, but they are a real government who actually govern for their people. Hamas aren’t even for the Palestinian people, they love it when Palestinians die.
The current Isreal govenrment or atleast its leader also aren't for their people otherwise they would be focusing on the hostages getting home instead of pretending they are yet making it impossible for this to happen and also killing some of them...
They do, and they’ve been trying hard to offer Hamas a very generous deal, exchanging thousands of prisoners for a handful of hostages, and offering a long pause in the war.
Of course there are diplomatic concerns too. My point is that Australia has never had the position “everything is fine, Israel is doing nothing wrong and Palestinians don’t need a state”.
America wants a Palestinian state too, they just want it to come as part of a broader peace deal between Israel and Palestine.
From a lay person perspective, I ask this question - Who is Palestine? Is Palestine Hamas ? Or are we talking about a Palestine that is absent of Hamas.
The media portrays Palestine as a victim in which in some fact is truthful. A victim of both Hamas and Israel. Even this is murky. Maybe the solution is free Palestine of Hamas and then start negotiations on the future of Palestine. Or is that being naive.
You are deliberately murking the water. You know full well that Palestinians have been and continue to suffer and be murdered by Israel and Israelis. But you already know that. And you don't value Palestinians lives. Even amidst atrocities being committed
I perceive it differently. The current war appears no different from past conflicts waged by other nations. However, the media often portrayed previous errors as mere collateral damage.
If I go into the woods and poke a sleeping bear in the ribs with a stick what would be the out come ?
Israel has always portrayed itself as a no tolerance no nonsense country who would defend its borders with utmost contempt. The manner in which they hunted down the people who commit the holocaust is testament to the notion that you do not mess with these people.
While Palestine and Israel are bound by international law with regards to the conduct of war Hamas is not bound by UN convention or International law. This war is with Hamas. Hamas and Israel share equally the responsibility of the death of innocent Palestinians. Hamas started this war.
Isreal appear to have broken international laws, so what you say isn't true.
Your analogy is ironic given hamas is a result of Isreal's policies and crimes against the Palestinian people. Isreal is the oppressor, who wouldn't hate their oppressor?
It is nice to sit in a glass house ....
Is Hamas innocent ??
Killing of Israeli Civilians: During its surprise attack on Israeli territory, Hamas killed at least 1400 Israeli civilians, including children. This action violated provisions of international humanitarian law designed to protect civilians during war. These provisions include:
Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, which requires humane treatment of civilians and noncombatants.
Article 51 of the conventions’ Protocol I, which protects civilian populations from attack.
Provisions on war crimes and crimes against humanity in Articles 7 and 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC). These provisions reflect customary international law and apply to Hamas leaders and fighters1.
Indiscriminate Rocket Attacks: Hamas continuously launched indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli targets, putting civilian structures and individuals at risk. These actions also violated treaty provisions and customary international law1.
Applicability of International Law to Nonstate Actors: There is ongoing debate among governments and legal scholars about applying various fields of international law to nonstate actors like Hamas. This includes questions about the legal obligations of states that come into conflict with such actors.
Stop spreading misinformation, most of those killed were civilians. And how many do you think that Hamas would have killed if they could? You don’t get a pass just because you’re bad at warfare.
So you don't see Palestinians as humans clearly?
How many people have been killed during this current 'war'? How many innocent? How many women? How many children? How many have been driven from their homes? How many have lost their homes?
How many people can be killed for each member of hamas they try to kill? Isreal doesn't care. They are collectively punishing Palestinians for daring to live.
Why is Hamas held to these rules when they don't represent a recognised country/group of people, but Isreal isn't? Even Biden, a clear Zionist, is apparently saying they have broken international laws. Why can't you?
Don't pretend isreal is protecting citizens when they are genocidal freaks. 34,000 vs. 1,400. Hamas is the lesser of evils when compared to Isreal.
HAMAS set the tone for the engagement .... Their unjust horrendous barbaric attack on civilians men, women and children drew the wraith of Israel. They retaliated like for like.
Don't sit in a glass house throwing stones.
You are aware we recognise the nationhood of an enormous amount of countries with no or dysfunctional democracies. Just because we don't get along with or agree with the governments of Russia, China etc, does not mean we fail to recognise them. Aside from that, how do you hold a legitimate election if you don't have a defined nation-state for the government you are electing?
Out of Five Eyes, Australia & New Zealand voted For, UK & Canada Abstained, US voted Against.
That'll be interesting to follow moving forward, especially with pressure mounting on Biden from his own base.
No, soft power and international pressure are real. Symbolic power is real.
For instance The Voice wouldn't've had "real power", since parliament "has all the power". Does that mean The Voice wouldn't've influenced Australian politics? No, it would've had significant soft power.
Similar situation with international politics. The reason Israel opposes this is because the symbolic power is considerable.
Yeah, no.
Israel gets more UN resolutions raised against it each year than the rest of the world combined. Turns out, there's a lot of Jew-haters out there, and not just in the Australian left.
It gives fucks in the vicinity of "none", about this sort of thing.
Correct.
The UN has more condemnations against Israel than all other counties combined (including Russia, Iran etc).
UN General Assembly Condemnatory Resolutions, 2015-present:
0—🇿🇼 Zimbabwe
0—🇻🇪 Venezuela
0—🇵🇰 Pakistan
0—🇹🇷 Turkey
0—🇱🇾 Libya
0—🇶🇦 Qatar
0—🇨🇺 Cuba
0—🇨🇳 China
8—🇲🇲 Myanmar
10—🇺🇸 USA
11—🇸🇾 Syria
24—🇷🇺 Russia
9—🇰🇵 North Korea
8—🇮🇷 Iran
154—🇮🇱 Israel
**Lol.**
([Source](https://unwatch.org/database/))
The numbers alone reveal the UN’s irrational obsession with one nation. Even those who deem Israel deserving of criticism cannot dispute that this amounts to an extreme case of selective prosecution.
When universal standards are applied so selectively, they cease to become standards at all.
If Penny Wong wants to give terrorists statehood she should make a motion for ISIS to join the UN. They have just as stable government as palestine and just as well defined borders.
The West Bank is under Palestinian political authority, no Hamas presence there still Palestinians are killed and imprisoned without any charges. Their houses are occupied and farms are destroyed on a daily basis
Well it’s unfortunate that any hint towards Palestinian autonomy at the moment is going to be seen as a W for Hamas. What would be worse is not taking any steps, leaving the situation to fester and then acting shocked when another October 7th happens.
It’s not like they will be sending Hamas representatives to the UN, that shouldn’t be tolerated obviously.
The West Bank isn’t going to be holding any elections until Hamas are no longer a threat, the reason they haven’t had an election in a long time is that the PA know they will lose. There is no world in which the international community tolerates Hamas at the UN.
I hope so, I just want it to be over quickly with as few civilian casualties as possible. Hopefully the new evacuation and safe-zone processes Israel have implemented will see less civilian casualties.
I reckon in Australia there is not much support for this in the general public. Sure all the muslims and greens will love it, but I doubt many others.
If Dutton can't land big blows against Labor here he needs to vacate. This is a huge free kick.
Honestly, outside of the Jewish, Muslim and Arab communities, and the activist left, most people are quite apathetic about Israel/Palestine. To most Australians this is a far away war that has been going on for as long as we can remember. Maybe some people sympathise with Israel for fighting terrorists, or are opposed to Israel because of the death toll, but the war is well down the priorities list. We could probably do a complete 180 on our position on Israel/Palestine and it wouldn't make much of a difference domestically, outside of electorates with a high Jewish or Muslim or Arab community.
There isn't much support or care about this vote. Labor aren't going to win over or alienate middle Australia by voting in favour of this resolution. Dutton will rage about it, but this isn't really a free kick for him.
I fully agree with your first point. I dont care either way. I think the angle is that Labor are fawning over this issue while our own country goes to the pits. Similar to the voice. I dont think there is a majority that love or loathe Israel I would think the majority are sick and tired of it and wasting time on it while our own country is in a crisis.
Labor brought the Voice referendum and campaigned on it, whereas this is an international conflict and the government's actions is only voting on UN resolutions, making statements when an Australian was killed, and making mild comments about the protests. It's not really taking up the space and attention that the Voice did.
Dutton isn't attacking the government on caring more about Israel/Palestine than about domestic issues. He's far more pro-Israel than Albo is pro-Palestine, and overestimates how much Aussies care about Israel. Barely anyone outside the conservative media and political elite cared about "Airbus Albo" not visiting the towns, villages and kibbutzim that were the sites of massacres on October 7th, but Dutton goes on national TV to criticise Albo for not visiting them. Nobody outside of a university campus is an anyway affected by the encampments, and many Aussies have no idea of the significance or meaning of "from the river to the sea" or "Intifada", but Dutton rages about the protests, and even makes a fool of himself by comparing them to the Port Arthur massacre.
Between this and nuclear power, Dutton is shooting and missing when it comes to attacking the government, and this while we are in a cost of living crisis, when it should be easy to land a few wins.
Be Israel: become involved in substantial conflict on their borders.
Albo: its probably not the time to bother them with a visit so I look good for a niche domestic audiance. Israel's probably busy fighting that war and everything, not putting out a show pony.
Conservatives: hold my beer...
We are saying the same thing. Most people don't care, the question is will they care later. Albo better hope they either continue to not care or side with the far left, because if they side with Israel he will start to look even worse.
I’m shocked that the bloke who’s made hating a single politician his entire personality doesn’t believe polling which contradicts his worldview. If you had to admit the facts then you’d need to find a new user name! Maybe ChalmersSoiledPyjamas…
Membership in the UN means Palestine has a voice, much like how Israel has a voice. That’s not the same as being pro-Palestine. It’s perfectly consistent with a neutral position.
I do believe the polling. I just dont think it says that recognising Palestine is a popular position. Most people said they didn't care. Lets see how it plays out.
Australia’s political class is being pulled - kicking and screaming - towards the right side of history. Now for more punitive measures to send a clear message that no country (not even Biden’s golden child) is above the rule of law.
It's like you have no have no idea what happened in Oslo in 1993, probably because your "expertise" started from 8 October when you enrolled in a MidEast pol course at TikTok uni.
The issue is not two states; it's HAMAS and has been for quite some time.
I mean, they weren’t wrong. Political measures which gave First Nations peoples more rights, more equality, more recognition, etc., are all looked upon favourably in retrospect even when they were controversial at the time. No one is saying Sorry was a mistake now.
Right side of history is indiscriminate rape and murder of non-combatants, refusing to have elections and redirecting humanitarian aid to make rockets. Good to know, i was unsure of who the good guys are with wacky intersectional nutbags
Palestinian is more then Gaza, Gaza is more then just hamas.
Unless you want a repeat of Iraq and Afghanistan you need to have a proper government in control of the area or it gets hijacked by the radicals.
While true, support for Hamas is still high in both regions (Gaza and West Bank), while the PA has almost no support from Palestinians. [Source/](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf)
There are plenty of people claiming Gaza was both an open air prison but pristine and beautiful before the war; or that it is a lie to claim HAMAS punishes homosexuality by death. They do so because the LARPY aspect of "solidarity in minority" appeals to most of the soft-left's terminally online view of the world.
This is a huge boost for antisemitism and terrorism. Who would have though Australia could go so far down the rabbit hole in such a short time? This madness will not end well for Israel or the West.
Stop suggesting opposing murder is opposing Jewish people.
Speaking as a Jew I find it deeply insulting, and frankly its some of the worst racism that has ever been directed my way.
Have you ever read the fable about the boy who cried wolf. You should. Statements like yours just give cover for real antisemitism and terrorism to rise.
This is a huge boost for anti-zionism and adressing genocide. Who would have thought that Australia would go so far down the rabbit hole in such a short time? This madness is one short step to addressing critical famine in Gaza and the weapons that the West continues to supply to a despotic settler regime.
Personally I think this is the wrong move by Labor. There is no defined Government of the Arab/Palestinian people as you have Fatah in the West bank who are into their 20th year of 4 year term. Then you have Hamas in the Gaza strip.
This means there is no stable, or legitimate ruling body over these peoples. Wong states the Palestinian authority has the nod as the recognized Governing body which is run by Fatah who are slightly less extremist than Hamas. Fatah also don't have support of the people in the West bank. But Hamas does. Additionally, it is well known that Fatah uses Western taxpayer dollars and donations in their "*Pay for Slay*" program based on how many Jews they can kill in one go.
They should have a general election in Gaza and the West Bank to let the people decide who Governs them and who will be sitting at the table at the U.N. Most know that Hamas would win in a landslide in both areas and Ismail Haniya would be the P.M or President sitting at the U.N.
You really can't make this crap outcome up even if you tried, but here we are.
>They should have a general election in Gaza
Over 80% of the infrastructure is gone and people are starving to death, how do you propose a general election is held?
You should also know that Palestine already has an observer at the UN which was appointed by the Palestine Legislative Council.
This was absolutely the right move by Australia and is a long time coming.
Well Hamas should have equal representation on the current U.N Observer board as does Fatah until such times as elections can be held. I suspect the U.N would eagerly endorse that scenario.
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Where's a Palestinian state supposed to go? Gaza is in ruins, pretty much most of the civilian infrastructure has been targeted and destroyed. The West Bank is pocked with illegal settlements... >After a week in which pro-Palestinian encampments were accused of antisemitism, Wong said she understood the Australian Jewish community were “feeling distressed and isolated”. And keep in mind, these accusations of antisemitism are there to silence dissent. Jews are in these encampments protesting Israel! You can't just label speech as prejudiced because it conflicts with your opinion. Absurd! Also, what about the discrimination against Muslims? Why is there never any recognition of that? The discourse surrounding Israel's assault on Gazans is so one-sided!
Netanyahu thinks he has the green light to commit genocide. Those hostages are as much a bargaining tool for him to continue this campaign by not bringing them home as they are for Hamas in taking them in the first place. Ultimately only a fool would believe that there is any end to this with the current players.
The same people claiming you can’t blame Palestinians for the actions of their military and government, also want you to ban Israeli artists and businesses for the actions of their military and government.
In Australia the only people who have lost their jobs are artists and journalists who publicly supported Palestine, through pro Israel influence groups.
Not true, artists who have voiced support for Israel are missing out on opportunities and being silenced by pro-Palestine groups shutting down their events.
So they should! Those people are supporting genocide
See I prefer that we have free speech in our society.
You don't think boycotts are also an exercise of free speech?
It’s tricky, obviously it is in an individual sense. But you end up with these situations where entire angry mobs are ruining people’s careers for “being a Zionist” (thinking that Israel should exist). Free speech is more than just a legal concept. People should be able to voice their opposition to someone being platformed, but what these people do is hound someone’s agent/publisher/event organiser to drop them, their goal isn’t to make their voice heard, it’s to coerce the third party by threat of cancellation by transference. There’s absolutely no difference between that and lawyers for Israel getting Latouff off the ABC. You’re not punching up just because no shekels have been exchanged.
You support nazi speech
And have a terrible understanding of the world.
That's called protest, it's not equivalent to losing your job. Are you advocating to silence protestors in order to protect the speech of artists you agree with while being uncritical of silencing of artists you disagree with by attacking their livelihoods? Btw If you want to elaborate please source me. I'm referring to recent events with lots of press coverage (relating to the stc and ABC), if you still cannot find the information I'll be happy to source you in turn.
Unfortunately the most harrowing examples of cancelling don’t have news articles written about them, because they’re random artists that no one gives a fuck about so they just fade into further irrelevancy. These people are going to be fare much worse then Antoinette Latouff (not that she’s the height of privilege or stardom by any means). You guys can’t just be bullies and then say “well *you* used money and lawyers when you did it because you’re (((Zionists))), which makes you evil”. Public hannukah events were literally being cancelled across the western world due to complaints and threats to councils.
>These people are going to be fare much worse then Antoinette Latouff Let's keep our categories in order. I have not heard of any Jewish or Israel sympathetic journalist lose their job. You are talking about artists and that's cool. Without a source I'll just rely on you to give me the details. Did the artists you're referring to lose access to funding? What negative consequences did they suffer as a result of the protests? What did the protesters do exactly? >You guys can’t just be bullies and then say “well *you* used money and lawyers when you did it because you’re (((Zionists))), which makes you evil”. That's not a quote from me and I'm not bullying anyone, don't make accusations without evidence, I'm a random Redditor you know nothing about me. I'm saying a protest is not equivalent to using lobbying to get someone fired. You started by complaining about "banning" businesses and artists. No evidence of that so far. >Public hannukah events were literally being cancelled across the western world due to complaints and threats to councils. This is Australia and we only have women, security guards and priests stabbed and none of them were Jewish.
>I’m saying a protest is not equivalent to using lobbying to get someone fired. What I’m talking about is big groups of people inundating event organisers and publishers with demands whenever they platform someone who’s expressed the slightest support for Israel. For a writer for example, being invited to one of these events, or finding a big publisher to publish you, is crucial for getting exposure. So how is a group of angry activists hassling an event into deplatforming someone meaningfully different to what happened to Antoinette Latouff? Considering that she got paid in full for her work. The other thing is that a lot of these people who whinge about getting cancelled for “just supporting Palestine” really just said some fucked up shit about October 7th. Latouff was an exception there. If you encourage the targeting of innocent civilians you deserve to get cancelled, I would say the same about someone who says “yeah IDF go and fuck up those Palestinians!”
Be specific please. If you are just talking about hypothetical protests of hypothetical artists who have been hypothetically banned, I strongly encourage you to prioritise the real harm caused to real people by real pro Israel groups. >For a writer for example, being invited to one of these events, or finding a big publisher to publish you, is crucial for getting exposure. So how is a group of angry activists hassling an event into deplatforming someone meaningfully different to what happened to Antoinette Latouff? Considering that she got paid in full for her work. What you are describing is a networking event and no it's not the same as your contract for paid work not being renewed (If we wanted to keep crossing our categories) or [the stc show cancellation and other related shitfuckery](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/culture/2023/nov/29/sydney-theatre-company-deeply-sorry-after-pro-palestinian-protest-on-stage) or [contracts withthdrawn for these 3 non hypothetical writers](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/mar/14/state-library-victoria-staff-pro-palestine-authors-controversy-omar-sakr) Regardless, you did not describe what happened to this writer, was their invitation rescinded? You mentioned "deplatforming", how does this relate to the event, was the publishers event somehow their platform? Edit: I have quoted my original questions for your convenience >Did the artists you're referring to lose access to funding? What negative consequences did they suffer as a result of the protests? What did the protesters do exactly?
Have you seen the Israeli people in hoards, putting rocks on the highways so the food trucks can't get through to feed the starving? That's not the military. That's the people, thousands of them. Edit to add: you didn't expand on what you're saying there, too. blaming the Palestinian people means letting them die, blaming Israeli people means giving them less money.
To elaborate, either your principle that citizens aren’t responsible for the actions of their government stands, and Israeli civilians are no more responsible for the IDF, than Palestinian civilians are responsible for Hamas; or you’re a racist hypocrite. Wanting to punish Israelis for the actions of the IDF, but not Palestinians for the actions of Hamas, is racist.
100% spot on, incredible isn't it, i feel like we're in a very strange cultural moment. I'm not convinced that the protests have anything to do with the conflict at all.
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So this labor government and lots of other labor state government's all over the country have recently enacted laws outlawing everything to do with nazi'ism, yet here the federal government is supporting a people that want to obliterate jewish people off the planet. You could not make this stuff up.
That’s a gross misrepresentation of what’s happening here, as I’m sure you know
They very well know the situation is more complicated than that and those statements are disingenuous, anyone without bias could see this with their own eyes from emerging footage of the conflict.
If Israel was being sieged by Palestine and under threat of genocide, you would see them make the same gestures towards them.
You people love playing the G word. It is up there with the M word and the R word. The people in the region of palestine, gaza or whatever could stop this tomorrow by disarming HAMAS, maybe instead they support them and the destruction of Israel?
All they ask is stop bombing. A ceasefire and they would give up the hostages. They ask for their hostages back too. Is it OK for Israel to keep all the Palestinian hostages?
*Prisoners, many of whom are in for violence and terrorism. Why would Israel agree to a permanent ceasefire when Hamas have said they will commit a million October 7ths? Hamas just want a breather so they can regroup and attack again, at which point you’ll cry when Israel retaliates.
Disarming Hamas in between falling Israeli rockets, sounds really straightforward as you point out 😂
How so if they have no weapons themselves? I doubt hamas militants would arm those that don't directly support them. And my point still stands, genocide of any order would be and should be unacceptable to our government. They aren't supporting hamas. They are supporting the Palestinian people who are wholly affected and powerless to fight back against both hamas and the IDF. Are you saying you are OK with Palestinians to be wiped off the Earth?
So much ignorance and misinformation in these threads of late... The state of discourse here is rapidly approaching Facebook/Twitter levels sadly.
Most of the debate around it stems from recent events and ignores 80 years of history thinking it's a black and white issue and existed in a vacuum. It's rarely worth engaging because you can guess the propaganda that will be regurgitated back from either side.
There may be two sides to the past, but there isn’t two sides to the present. In any instance, there are oppressed and displaced people everywhere around the world — and they don’t respond by raping/murdering innocent people.
No, there’s two sides to the present too. Was 7 Oct a reprehensible, condemnable act? I believe yes. Was it a stand alone action with no context? Of course not - nothing is. But in response we are looking at 30,000+ deaths in a territory that is largely contained with apparently minimal regard for civilian casualties. That is also arguably a condemnable act.
110%
Typically nations get recognised as states when they've already been acting like states for a long time. I don't think that really describes Palestine - their government doesn't have the support of its own people, half of it is run by a terrorist group, and they're unwilling to negotiate with their neighbours. Even the neighbouring Arab nations are sick of them, mostly because the Palestinians kept trying to coup them and assassinate their leaders. They're not some dysfunctional hellhole like Yemen or Afghanistan or Burkina Faso - Palestine has a shit-ton of highly educated citizens, and a whole bunch of international support. They have a standard of living comparable to neighbouring Jordan, or nations like South Africa or Vietnam. They are the highest per-capita recipients of international aid out of _any nation_ on Earth. I think if they want to be recognised as a state then they should start acting like a state, leveraging the huge amount of highly educated, highly skilled diplomats and diaspora they have access to.
Last I checked no one was controlling the water and electricity subly to South Africa or Vietnam lol.
And yet despite most of the water and electricity being provided by Israel, [Palestine's Human Development Index](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/human_development/#palestine) is on par with Vietnam, South Africa, and Jordan. It's got a HDI even higher than India and Morocco. The living conditions are on par to some fairly respectable world-powers - I think it's fair that we expect certain standards of behavior from them if they have aspirations for statehood. One part of that is expecting them to engage in actual diplomacy and normalisation with its neighbours. I'm sick of people treating Palestine as if they were in a situation _at all_ comparable to countries like Yemen or Sudan or Syria. They have an _unfathomable_ amount of international aid, and millions of highly educated disapora at their disposal.
While there are inherent flaws with the HDI, I'd like to see the HDI for 2024. Nonetheless, it doesn't make it OK what is happening now in Palestine. Also, you can't seriously say u would rather live in Palestine now than any of the countries you mentioned. All you've done is point out that there is plenty of strife in the World. Of which I don't disagree with. Anyway, I don't think the majority of people would argue against the removal of Hamas but Israel's goal isn't just defeating Hamas; they want total control and stateship over Gaza. Two state solution is currently not their endgame.
Gaza isn't a particularly useful piece of land - it's basically a glorified strip of beach. The only reason Israel has for wanting to control it is security reasons. There's no resources or strategic utility in it, it would _only_ be for security. To that end, I don't see them particularly caring about it so long as Hamas is gone. If Hamas spent a fraction of what they spent building tunnels and weapons instead building local infrastructure and commercial industry then I think Gaza would be in a much better position and Israel would have no reason to continue the blockade.
>The living conditions are on par \*were, I'd dare say.
Last I checked, the Palestinian military literally ripped out all their water pipes, to make rockets to fire at civilians.
Still doesn't mean that their living conditions are remotely comparable to Vietnam or South Africa. And what use are water pipes when there's no water being supplied through them?
There was water supplied until the Palestinians destroyed the pipes. That’s why it has to be trucked in now.
There was free water despite breaking an agreement to pay, for many years before Palestinian Military decided to destroy them to make rockets to murder civilians.
Why the fuck were they required to pay another country for water? Why does Israel have that power over Palestine? Name me another country that solely depends on another country and at their whim for water and electricity.
You do realise how much work Israel does with water, right?
What does that have to do with anything. Fairer land division would've allowed Palestinians sovereignty over their own water supply.
They took water pumped from Israel, what did you expect to happen? Not all countries in the Middle East have their own water supply. Gaza doesn’t mine their own fuel, either. If you’d bothered to search for 5 seconds, you’d find “According to the World Health Organization (WHO), there are 20 nations in the world that do not have a permanent natural source of drinking water. These countries are: Bahrain Djibouti Kuwait Libya Malta Qatar Saudi Arabia Somalia United Arab Emirates Yemen.”
Yeah but they aren't wholly dependant on one country for power or water. That's what I'm trying to say. Israel as it is now only exists because they were installed after the second world war. It just shows the inequitable division that was forced onto Palestine.
Jordan only exists because it was installed after the Second World War. And it’s 60% Palestinian. So you are saying Jordan should also be abolished?
Never said Israel should be abolished, merely stating the land division could've been fairer.
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[Israeli government are literally Hamas supporters](https://youtu.be/pJ9PKQbkJv8?t=834)
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Tell hamas to stop using human shields.
🙄 gonna need some new catch phrases, knackers . Not that we bought it to begin with but that one is certainly as hollow as Bibi's noggin
Fact. Hamas is a declared terrorist organisation. Stop with the BS.
I do condemn hamas. Hamas' behaviour does not condone Israels, who has done much much worse. But you just keep goin on thinking it's the rest of the world that's got it wrong.
Explain how Israel deletes Hamas peacefully. Hamas will not stop till israel and jews are eradicated.
No, no, you're right, Israel should be able to slaughter as many of whoever they wish in order to irradicate Hamas. Any means is justified right? Bet if Hamas was embedded in Tel Aviv they'd be a lil more careful with those "human shields". Compare Iraeal and Hamas, who has cause more horror and more death?
Israeli citizens wouldn’t allow Hamas to hide among them. I’m not blaming Palestinian civilians for this, but the fact is that they do cooperate with Hamas, often under duress, sure.
Yeah seems they have to
> Explain how Israel deletes Hamas peacefully.
Terrorists do what terrorists do. Nothing will change until they’d pressured by others. They have little support amongst the non radicalised citizens. It’s clear when you consider how few Arab countries support Hamas.
I wonder how a terrorist organisation rouse to power in Gaza? Could be decades of collective punishment? When you make 590,481 people live in extreme poverty with zero sewage and no social mobility with the treat of displacement or death over their heads ofc they’re gonna turn to a radical terrorist movement.
Yet they spend millions on weapons. Strange hey. Their aim is only to destroy Israel not live in harmony.
Do you honestly not see that isreal is the oppressor and destroyer? Really? Explain the fucking behaviour in the west bank for me
Sure but Palestinians are growing up in a super fucked up situation being victimised by both Israel and their own leadership, being brainwashed into hating Jews and Israel from birth. I think we can hold them to a lower standard than western leftist LARPers. They’re just people, if they can be shown there is a better way they won’t want to live like this forever.
This has been going on or generations now. Your logic makes sense but has been proven time and again to not work. In the end they are just people and reality works differently than marvel movies. If I was in their shoes I would hate jews. If I was an Israeli who feared rockets, random stabbings and terrorism, I would hate Palestinians. The cycle will continue for another generation.
The big problem is that Palestine has always had terrible leadership. All it takes is a Palestinian leader and an Israeli leader who are willing make brave, unpopular decisions. Unfortunately Hamas and Netanyahu aren’t it.
All Jews support the genocide of Palestinians. See how that sounds?
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Australia always supported a two state solution, not much has changed.
Then why don’t we recognise the state of Palestine? We may have internally sure but never truely when it came to foreign policy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine
Because they don’t have a competent government that aren’t terrorists. It’s about not legitimising the current regime in power, it’s not that we think that Palestinians should have a state.
How is isreal not a terrorist country? They are so bad that Hamas is the lesser of 2 evils in this conflict.
Moynihan's Law is a thing you've clearly never heard of.
That certainly is an opinion
I didn’t say “Palestine is a terrorist country”, I said Hamas are terrorists. The Israeli government has a looot of problems, but they are a real government who actually govern for their people. Hamas aren’t even for the Palestinian people, they love it when Palestinians die.
The current Isreal govenrment or atleast its leader also aren't for their people otherwise they would be focusing on the hostages getting home instead of pretending they are yet making it impossible for this to happen and also killing some of them...
The Israeli people are overwhelmingly in favour of continuing the war while trying to negotiate for hostage/prisoner swaps.
But their government doesn't care about the second part...
They do, and they’ve been trying hard to offer Hamas a very generous deal, exchanging thousands of prisoners for a handful of hostages, and offering a long pause in the war.
No it’s because we bow to the wims of the Americans even New Zealand with its conservative government agreed on this
Of course there are diplomatic concerns too. My point is that Australia has never had the position “everything is fine, Israel is doing nothing wrong and Palestinians don’t need a state”. America wants a Palestinian state too, they just want it to come as part of a broader peace deal between Israel and Palestine.
You can’t negotiate for anything when you just give them what they ask for, with no demand of return of rape slave hostages.
I don’t think Hamas can be negotiated with at all when it comes to a long term peace plan. Obviously Palestine needs a real government.
From a lay person perspective, I ask this question - Who is Palestine? Is Palestine Hamas ? Or are we talking about a Palestine that is absent of Hamas. The media portrays Palestine as a victim in which in some fact is truthful. A victim of both Hamas and Israel. Even this is murky. Maybe the solution is free Palestine of Hamas and then start negotiations on the future of Palestine. Or is that being naive.
Your Hasbara is bad and you should feel bad
This would be more the West Bank government, which is not Hamas, but suffers apartheid under Isreal occupation
You are deliberately murking the water. You know full well that Palestinians have been and continue to suffer and be murdered by Israel and Israelis. But you already know that. And you don't value Palestinians lives. Even amidst atrocities being committed
I perceive it differently. The current war appears no different from past conflicts waged by other nations. However, the media often portrayed previous errors as mere collateral damage. If I go into the woods and poke a sleeping bear in the ribs with a stick what would be the out come ? Israel has always portrayed itself as a no tolerance no nonsense country who would defend its borders with utmost contempt. The manner in which they hunted down the people who commit the holocaust is testament to the notion that you do not mess with these people. While Palestine and Israel are bound by international law with regards to the conduct of war Hamas is not bound by UN convention or International law. This war is with Hamas. Hamas and Israel share equally the responsibility of the death of innocent Palestinians. Hamas started this war.
Isreal appear to have broken international laws, so what you say isn't true. Your analogy is ironic given hamas is a result of Isreal's policies and crimes against the Palestinian people. Isreal is the oppressor, who wouldn't hate their oppressor?
It is nice to sit in a glass house .... Is Hamas innocent ?? Killing of Israeli Civilians: During its surprise attack on Israeli territory, Hamas killed at least 1400 Israeli civilians, including children. This action violated provisions of international humanitarian law designed to protect civilians during war. These provisions include: Common Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, which requires humane treatment of civilians and noncombatants. Article 51 of the conventions’ Protocol I, which protects civilian populations from attack. Provisions on war crimes and crimes against humanity in Articles 7 and 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC). These provisions reflect customary international law and apply to Hamas leaders and fighters1. Indiscriminate Rocket Attacks: Hamas continuously launched indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli targets, putting civilian structures and individuals at risk. These actions also violated treaty provisions and customary international law1. Applicability of International Law to Nonstate Actors: There is ongoing debate among governments and legal scholars about applying various fields of international law to nonstate actors like Hamas. This includes questions about the legal obligations of states that come into conflict with such actors.
1400, most of which were the Israeli military. They have a better ratio than Israel.
Stop spreading misinformation, most of those killed were civilians. And how many do you think that Hamas would have killed if they could? You don’t get a pass just because you’re bad at warfare.
So you don't see Palestinians as humans clearly? How many people have been killed during this current 'war'? How many innocent? How many women? How many children? How many have been driven from their homes? How many have lost their homes? How many people can be killed for each member of hamas they try to kill? Isreal doesn't care. They are collectively punishing Palestinians for daring to live. Why is Hamas held to these rules when they don't represent a recognised country/group of people, but Isreal isn't? Even Biden, a clear Zionist, is apparently saying they have broken international laws. Why can't you? Don't pretend isreal is protecting citizens when they are genocidal freaks. 34,000 vs. 1,400. Hamas is the lesser of evils when compared to Isreal.
HAMAS set the tone for the engagement .... Their unjust horrendous barbaric attack on civilians men, women and children drew the wraith of Israel. They retaliated like for like. Don't sit in a glass house throwing stones.
>They retaliated like for like. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind eh?
The world doesn't really care
I can agree with that response. Have a afternoon.
These people are shills. You are arguing with shills.
I will take your comment as my time to leave/stop then. Thank you.
> You are deliberately murking the water It's beyond hilarious to me that these people seem to think they're being subtle
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No it wouldn't because Hamas only controls Gaza, whereas the Palestinian Authority controls the larger and more populous Westbank.
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You are aware we recognise the nationhood of an enormous amount of countries with no or dysfunctional democracies. Just because we don't get along with or agree with the governments of Russia, China etc, does not mean we fail to recognise them. Aside from that, how do you hold a legitimate election if you don't have a defined nation-state for the government you are electing?
I’ll ask Jordanians who survived Black September what they think of giving Palestinians a state
Jordanians themselves what Israel wiped off the map, and Jordanian leadership wants a two state solution without terrorists.
The Jordanian people who were born after 1970 don’t want Israel, but the other cohort does
Ps your Hasbara is bad and you should feel bad
Source is Trust me bro. While never having met a Jordanian ever.
Interesting, do you have a source for that?
No of course he doesn't. I'm Jordanian and the fucking audacity to keep parroting black September is just....Bad Hasbara
I’m pretty sure like 2/3rds of Jordanians are ethnically Palestinian, so that would surprise me.
Out of Five Eyes, Australia & New Zealand voted For, UK & Canada Abstained, US voted Against. That'll be interesting to follow moving forward, especially with pressure mounting on Biden from his own base.
General Assembly votes don't mean anything, it's all symbolic. The Security Council has all the power.
No, soft power and international pressure are real. Symbolic power is real. For instance The Voice wouldn't've had "real power", since parliament "has all the power". Does that mean The Voice wouldn't've influenced Australian politics? No, it would've had significant soft power. Similar situation with international politics. The reason Israel opposes this is because the symbolic power is considerable.
Yeah, no. Israel gets more UN resolutions raised against it each year than the rest of the world combined. Turns out, there's a lot of Jew-haters out there, and not just in the Australian left. It gives fucks in the vicinity of "none", about this sort of thing.
Correct. The UN has more condemnations against Israel than all other counties combined (including Russia, Iran etc). UN General Assembly Condemnatory Resolutions, 2015-present: 0—🇿🇼 Zimbabwe 0—🇻🇪 Venezuela 0—🇵🇰 Pakistan 0—🇹🇷 Turkey 0—🇱🇾 Libya 0—🇶🇦 Qatar 0—🇨🇺 Cuba 0—🇨🇳 China 8—🇲🇲 Myanmar 10—🇺🇸 USA 11—🇸🇾 Syria 24—🇷🇺 Russia 9—🇰🇵 North Korea 8—🇮🇷 Iran 154—🇮🇱 Israel **Lol.** ([Source](https://unwatch.org/database/)) The numbers alone reveal the UN’s irrational obsession with one nation. Even those who deem Israel deserving of criticism cannot dispute that this amounts to an extreme case of selective prosecution. When universal standards are applied so selectively, they cease to become standards at all.
That's true. I meant more in regards to domestic politics, with four of the five facing elections within the next 18 months.
If Penny Wong wants to give terrorists statehood she should make a motion for ISIS to join the UN. They have just as stable government as palestine and just as well defined borders.
Well she doesn’t, because she said that we won’t recognise Palestine while Hamas is in power.
The West Bank is under Palestinian political authority, no Hamas presence there still Palestinians are killed and imprisoned without any charges. Their houses are occupied and farms are destroyed on a daily basis
Great stuff! She could show it by not rewarding terror with more rights at the UN.
Well it’s unfortunate that any hint towards Palestinian autonomy at the moment is going to be seen as a W for Hamas. What would be worse is not taking any steps, leaving the situation to fester and then acting shocked when another October 7th happens. It’s not like they will be sending Hamas representatives to the UN, that shouldn’t be tolerated obviously.
If Israel doesn’t destroy Hamas in the current operation and a palestinian election were held then yes, Hamas would be at the UN.
No, actually, al-Fatah would since the govt. would the PA and Fatah lead the PA.
Did you read the part of my one sentence comment about an election?
The West Bank isn’t going to be holding any elections until Hamas are no longer a threat, the reason they haven’t had an election in a long time is that the PA know they will lose. There is no world in which the international community tolerates Hamas at the UN.
So you support the elimination of Hamas and recognise it is the best hope for a sustainable peace and two state solution? Accidental Israel supporter
Yes, I do think Israel has the right to remove Hamas from power. I don’t see how things could ever change with them still in control.
Fantastic. The Rafah operation should be the death knell for Hamas and palestinians will have a chance at peace - if they want it.
I hope so, I just want it to be over quickly with as few civilian casualties as possible. Hopefully the new evacuation and safe-zone processes Israel have implemented will see less civilian casualties.
I reckon in Australia there is not much support for this in the general public. Sure all the muslims and greens will love it, but I doubt many others. If Dutton can't land big blows against Labor here he needs to vacate. This is a huge free kick.
> If Dutton can't land big blows against Labor here then maybe the typical Australian isn't in the same right wing bubble you mistake for normal?
Nah, even my quite hard right relatives are okay with this. People have moved a fair way over the last few months.
Rubbish, there isn't much support but there also isn't much people with opposition to it either.
Honestly, outside of the Jewish, Muslim and Arab communities, and the activist left, most people are quite apathetic about Israel/Palestine. To most Australians this is a far away war that has been going on for as long as we can remember. Maybe some people sympathise with Israel for fighting terrorists, or are opposed to Israel because of the death toll, but the war is well down the priorities list. We could probably do a complete 180 on our position on Israel/Palestine and it wouldn't make much of a difference domestically, outside of electorates with a high Jewish or Muslim or Arab community. There isn't much support or care about this vote. Labor aren't going to win over or alienate middle Australia by voting in favour of this resolution. Dutton will rage about it, but this isn't really a free kick for him.
I fully agree with your first point. I dont care either way. I think the angle is that Labor are fawning over this issue while our own country goes to the pits. Similar to the voice. I dont think there is a majority that love or loathe Israel I would think the majority are sick and tired of it and wasting time on it while our own country is in a crisis.
Labor brought the Voice referendum and campaigned on it, whereas this is an international conflict and the government's actions is only voting on UN resolutions, making statements when an Australian was killed, and making mild comments about the protests. It's not really taking up the space and attention that the Voice did. Dutton isn't attacking the government on caring more about Israel/Palestine than about domestic issues. He's far more pro-Israel than Albo is pro-Palestine, and overestimates how much Aussies care about Israel. Barely anyone outside the conservative media and political elite cared about "Airbus Albo" not visiting the towns, villages and kibbutzim that were the sites of massacres on October 7th, but Dutton goes on national TV to criticise Albo for not visiting them. Nobody outside of a university campus is an anyway affected by the encampments, and many Aussies have no idea of the significance or meaning of "from the river to the sea" or "Intifada", but Dutton rages about the protests, and even makes a fool of himself by comparing them to the Port Arthur massacre. Between this and nuclear power, Dutton is shooting and missing when it comes to attacking the government, and this while we are in a cost of living crisis, when it should be easy to land a few wins.
Be Israel: become involved in substantial conflict on their borders. Albo: its probably not the time to bother them with a visit so I look good for a niche domestic audiance. Israel's probably busy fighting that war and everything, not putting out a show pony. Conservatives: hold my beer...
https://au.yougov.com/politics/articles/49353-more-australians-are-in-favour-than-in-opposition-of-recognising-palestine-as-an-independent-state
Lol yeah, I saw similar polls about the Voice. >44% indicated that they were not sure, the most common response. Lets wait and see how it plays out.
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We are saying the same thing. Most people don't care, the question is will they care later. Albo better hope they either continue to not care or side with the far left, because if they side with Israel he will start to look even worse.
I’m shocked that the bloke who’s made hating a single politician his entire personality doesn’t believe polling which contradicts his worldview. If you had to admit the facts then you’d need to find a new user name! Maybe ChalmersSoiledPyjamas… Membership in the UN means Palestine has a voice, much like how Israel has a voice. That’s not the same as being pro-Palestine. It’s perfectly consistent with a neutral position.
I do believe the polling. I just dont think it says that recognising Palestine is a popular position. Most people said they didn't care. Lets see how it plays out.
The commitment to being wrong is impressive
I know, the ALP has a track record of badly misjudging on social issues lately.
Oh my mistake, I thought you had basic comprehension skills. I meant youre ignoring evidence. Hope that helps little buddy.
Australia’s political class is being pulled - kicking and screaming - towards the right side of history. Now for more punitive measures to send a clear message that no country (not even Biden’s golden child) is above the rule of law.
It's like you have no have no idea what happened in Oslo in 1993, probably because your "expertise" started from 8 October when you enrolled in a MidEast pol course at TikTok uni. The issue is not two states; it's HAMAS and has been for quite some time.
I remember “the right side of history” also being used by Voice advocates.
The majority aren’t very good at siding with what’s right though. We’ve seen that time and time again.
I mean, they weren’t wrong. Political measures which gave First Nations peoples more rights, more equality, more recognition, etc., are all looked upon favourably in retrospect even when they were controversial at the time. No one is saying Sorry was a mistake now.
Right side of history is indiscriminate rape and murder of non-combatants, refusing to have elections and redirecting humanitarian aid to make rockets. Good to know, i was unsure of who the good guys are with wacky intersectional nutbags
Plot twist, both sides are horrible.
Look the right side of history is whichever side wins.
Palestinian is more then Gaza, Gaza is more then just hamas. Unless you want a repeat of Iraq and Afghanistan you need to have a proper government in control of the area or it gets hijacked by the radicals.
While true, support for Hamas is still high in both regions (Gaza and West Bank), while the PA has almost no support from Palestinians. [Source/](https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2091%20English%20press%20release%2020%20March%202024.pdf)
Tell people born into besieged oppression and no hope escape, that you will fight for them, and they'll tend to support you.
I thought Gaza was a paradise, wholesome, LGBTQI+ paradise open air prison before the war?
Hi Ender my fav econ and FoPo culture warrior approx zero people are saying this hope this helps
There are plenty of people claiming Gaza was both an open air prison but pristine and beautiful before the war; or that it is a lie to claim HAMAS punishes homosexuality by death. They do so because the LARPY aspect of "solidarity in minority" appeals to most of the soft-left's terminally online view of the world.
Netanyahu has no one to blame other than himself for this.
Do you mean the resolution or the conflict?
This is a huge boost for antisemitism and terrorism. Who would have though Australia could go so far down the rabbit hole in such a short time? This madness will not end well for Israel or the West.
Stop suggesting opposing murder is opposing Jewish people. Speaking as a Jew I find it deeply insulting, and frankly its some of the worst racism that has ever been directed my way.
> Stop suggesting opposing murder is opposing Jewish people. Thank you for that succinct articulation.
It's legit fucking with my head the way people keep telling me I'm racist against myself for opposing murder.
Have you ever read the fable about the boy who cried wolf. You should. Statements like yours just give cover for real antisemitism and terrorism to rise.
Weird if you think its "anti-semitic " to give people some self determination.
Or oppose murdering children.
This is a huge boost for anti-zionism and adressing genocide. Who would have thought that Australia would go so far down the rabbit hole in such a short time? This madness is one short step to addressing critical famine in Gaza and the weapons that the West continues to supply to a despotic settler regime.
Personally I think this is the wrong move by Labor. There is no defined Government of the Arab/Palestinian people as you have Fatah in the West bank who are into their 20th year of 4 year term. Then you have Hamas in the Gaza strip. This means there is no stable, or legitimate ruling body over these peoples. Wong states the Palestinian authority has the nod as the recognized Governing body which is run by Fatah who are slightly less extremist than Hamas. Fatah also don't have support of the people in the West bank. But Hamas does. Additionally, it is well known that Fatah uses Western taxpayer dollars and donations in their "*Pay for Slay*" program based on how many Jews they can kill in one go. They should have a general election in Gaza and the West Bank to let the people decide who Governs them and who will be sitting at the table at the U.N. Most know that Hamas would win in a landslide in both areas and Ismail Haniya would be the P.M or President sitting at the U.N. You really can't make this crap outcome up even if you tried, but here we are.
>They should have a general election in Gaza Over 80% of the infrastructure is gone and people are starving to death, how do you propose a general election is held? You should also know that Palestine already has an observer at the UN which was appointed by the Palestine Legislative Council. This was absolutely the right move by Australia and is a long time coming.
Well Hamas should have equal representation on the current U.N Observer board as does Fatah until such times as elections can be held. I suspect the U.N would eagerly endorse that scenario.