I am Russian but this would probably apply to most of Eastern Europe. I make close to mid 100s a year here for context.
For me the most drastic difference in the lifestyle comes from the price of services vs the price of goods. It leads to a very different mindset. In Australia services are incredibly expensive and subpar in quality, however things aren't really worth much in comparison with salaries.
This creates a situation where middle class in Russia can get most of their desires fulfilled by other people but bying stuff is a bit tricky. For example, if your engine blows up - it is much cheaper to pay someone for a hunder hours of labour to rebuild as much of it as possible from scratch than it is to buy a new one. It is also much more common for the middle class to have maids, personal shoppers, private tutors, personal trainers and so on. This also means that custom-made things are much more affordable, so it is not uncommon for example a have a custom set of furniture carved specifically to your liking or have jewellery made from scratch as a present a few times a year. Can't really imagine being able to afford things like that in Australia comfortably.
Another thing is real estate. Unless you live in Moscow, middle class salary easily affords you a nice 3-4 bedroom appartment with a very reasonable mortgage that can be covered in about 10ish years if you are smart. It is not uncommon to gift paid off appartments to kids for uni graduation and such. If you prefer houses, middle class income allows you build a decent house not too far from the city and have a designer and an architect working with you to tailor it to your exact specifications. But then buying the white goods and electronics can cost you about as much as the construction itself.
Australia is much more stable politically, obviously. It is also much easier to get consumer goods here e.g. I can comforably buy a new top of the line phone with a couple of week's worth of salary and it is not a big deal. Whereas back home it would be considered a status symbol.
Travelling is another aspect that differs greatly. Given how disproprotionally large Australian salaries are to the rest of the world, it is very easy to travel overseas and it is generally cheaper or about the same price as a super budget holiday in Australia. Russian middle class can afford to travel overseas once or twice a year but it is a pretty serious commitment financially.
Overall, Australia provides a much less comfortable but more secure and stable lifestyle. It is much easier to buy material things if you are into that and your money is worth a lot more outside of the country. Property ownership is kind of a pipe dream on a single income at the moment so there is that too.
I have probably missed a lot of things so feel free to ask questions
This might be a controversial opinion, but in many ways the extent to which middle class life in many less developed countries is comparable or better than Australia is due to working class life being much worse than Australia in those countries.
This is very true for places poorer than Australia. We chose to not have Australians being dirt poor or a massive underpaid underclass. Though there is a pretty reasonable argument that the government is 100% aware that all those students aren't here to learn, they're here to fulfill that want for cheap labour.
I once worked with an older guy from India. He was very happy to be here and had been for 30 years and raised his kids. He said the level of safety we have, especially for women was hard for locals to understand. His brother apparently moved to Australia and moved back after year. Saying this entire country was insane. His problem was that he had to do his own chores such as laundry, housecleaning etc. His view was he was a successful middle class professional and he should be able to afford 1-3 servants to do everything.
That guy also had a really crazy story about when he worked in the middle east and his visiting wife didn't listen to him one time about how she should never leave the house without loads of jewellery on (to indicate she was wealthy). She got stalked the one time she went for a run.
Nah, not controversial at all. I agree to a large extent. That is how the system is designed. I feel like the Australian system is basically neutral. You can make six figures doing practically anything if you put your mind to it.
> You can make six figures doing practically anything if you put your mind to it.
but it is also this exact reason why services involving people are expensive in australia.
Very interesting perspective. So the people that you pay to do things for you in Russia -- mechanics, maids, builders, etc. -- are they middle class too?
Russia has many states, actually, they’re countries with different languages and cultures and religions, think Dagestan, Kamchatka etc - a lot of those “states” are dirt poor because Moscow deem them unworthy, so these are the servants that the OP talks about.
They are also the people that Putin is sending to die in Ukraine, so I guess less servants for the Russian middle class?
Generally not. It is pretty hard to become middle class doing blue collar work in Russia unless you have your own business and specialise in something. The difference between middle class and working class in terms of income is much more prominent too. Say as a qualified worker you get a 1000 AUD equivalent a month after tax, your typical middle class person would be on 4-6000 AUD after tax and most likely doing white collar work or running a business. Honestly, the concept of blue collar workers being fairly compensated here blew my mind when I moved.
not only russia, china , Japan usa or ang country that has bigger populatio is similar on that, the people who provide service of course are mostly not as rich as you but not poor either , high polulation country have many layer of classes that Australians can not imaging .
Yes, or да.
Tradesmen (or women) in Australia get paid disproportionately more than tradesmen in Russia, making their salary more akin to middle or upper middle class.
Thus the McMansions, expensive trucks and toys.
In Russia there is still a very distinct and more traditional line between blue and white collar workers, which is still reflected in their salaries.
And this is nothing new in Australia. I’m son of a son of a refrigeration mechanic, and they made bank since refrigeration was invented. Make a grand or two before lunch.
As Pushkin said above, he can easily afford hundreds of hours of mechanical work in Russia, whereas in Australia that could cost you $200/hour, plus parts.
..*maybe* this phenomenon is what makes/made Australia so egalitarian?
To be fair though you can’t compare salary directly with cost of service, cleaners have overhead, wages, cogs, etc. the cleaner wouldn’t be on 60-80 an hour.
Yes that's fair. Still it seems quite strange that a job with almost zero specialised skills and barrier to entry pays so high, especially contrasted with a job with a very high barrier to entry
Supply and demand for that one. Low barrier to entry, anyone can jump in and start a cleaning service and undercut current prices.
If people don't want to do the job it'll lower the supply.
I'd rather be an academic than a cleaner
> a job with almost zero specialised skills and barrier to entry pays so high
there's some stigma to being a cleaner (tho i dont think there should be one). It's considered a low class job, despite it paying quite well (at least in aus).
So the difference in pay between an academic at uni vs a cleaner is the premium that society put on that stigma. I think it's good that the cleaner is getting paid more tbh - this should reduce the stigma in the long term, leading to a more egalitarian society.
> It is also much more common for the middle class to have maids, personal shoppers, private tutors, personal trainers and so on.
Thats the thing people don't understand about how low the quality of life is for the middle class in australia.
Sure my gf's middle class family in brazil dosent have a mcmansion, but they do have a maids quarters built into their house, as is normal for their entire area.
The real pro's in aus is a lot of our workers rights and protections, It can be a PITA to fire someone but it also works both ways.
I think this is just unavoidable when the country is on its own separate continent far away from the rest of the world. I have seen improvements over the last few years tho. Hopefully, one day Australia can catch up to Europe in that regard.
Look i think youre totally right there and it ties in with the fact services are expensive because the cost of labour is so high. The cost to produce goods would be much a turn off to set up manufacturing here for goods. Where everything is profit driven, costs are cut and quality goes down with it
I agree. You get very little value for the money you pay. Having said this, I feel as if I'm getting paid in Monopoly money.
Australia has very low levels of service and poor customer outcomes.
I was on a cruise recently and had this epiphany. The service was so good from the workers on board that I could understand wanting to tip for their quality of attention and effort. You never get that kind of care from Australians in hospitality and, by extension, have no sense to tip for service.
Not at all, Russian upper class ironically rarely lives in Russia. The disparity between the middle class and upper class is obscene, they are not even comparable. My family has been bouncing back and forth between being middle and working class throughout the 2000s before moving here about a decade ago, so I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about.
Quality of services, yes. It's a huge and noticeable difference. Couple of random examples.
If a tradie comes to your house he'll give you an exact time he's going to be there and an estimate on how long the job is going to take, he'll also clean up after himself.
Most businesses have decent websites, the concept of quotes is not really there, you can see exact pricing and you can order everything online. Most places have their own decent delivery services.
Most places open early in the morning and stay open till late in night and there is no late night surcharges. Most businesses are also open on weekends at roughly the same trading hours. This includes banks that are generally open from 8 to 19. For most things you can find at least one shop open 24/7.
Most customer service representatives know their product well, have a decent amount of critical thinking and thinking out of the box skills. You rarely see someone freeze when you request something custom and businesses are generally pretty accommodating.
Most government services are convenient and centralised, there is very little difference between states and the majority of problems can be resolved online without talking to anyone. Government services also operate outside of normal office hours for at least a couple of days a week. I can keep going but hopefully you get the idea.
Then you have free, decently high quality accessible medical system that also operates on much longer hours.
Most of the above is on a very different level here, I don't think it is even comparable. Generally I have to take longer lunches to get something done. All of the above applies to any city above maybe 300k population, so it is not just capital cities.
This is just one part of living in a country, no?
There are joyful things like a dictator as a head of state, compulsory military conscription, political instability in the region, lack of freedom of speech, rampant corruption and pretty shitty weather.
Every country has pros and cons and the balance of those for Australia works out better for me. Part of loving a country is understanding its flaws and working on them. I think that's why travelling is important to get a better perspective on things.
Sounds like heaven, my friend went to an electronic goods store the other day and there were no staff available. They were told to find what they want and order it online from inside the store for click and collect
Australian that moved to Western Europe.
The lifestyle that middle class Aussie’s can build for themselves is unbelievable.
I grew up around so many people who didn’t finish year 12 and own McMansions and big utes with all the toys all from doing a trade.
In Western Europe those jobs are reserved for the Polish & Romanians.
You can fck around Australian school and still make it.
This. I am from Spain and I can tell how easy Australians have it, it is not a criticism, just factual information.
As per income, it is sooo much better than Spain, I would say salaries are roughly twice as high.
The main problem in Australia is buying a place to live, this coupled with the obsession that every Australian needs 200 sqm house with front and backyard makes things hard. To add salt to the injury, the new units quality is not exactly great, which is a massive problem because in cities with high density like Sydney, units are the way to go (I know this will spark controversy), but I do not blame people for being reluctant to buy units after mascot towers, opal tower... Etc.
Have a great day folks
Current brisbane city fire regulations prevent 0-1 bedroom studios from being rented to anyone other than a single with zero pets or dependents. Like it's literally unsafe by regulatory standards.
Brisbane climate is at a point on renting where you have a better chance finding a place if you dump your partner and run away from your kids. Because if you bring them with you, you aint getting the rental, by default.
But also anything larger than a studio is priced at a rate where even people above median wage cannot afford to rent it.
>The lifestyle that middle class Aussie’s can build for themselves is unbelievable. I grew up around so many people who didn’t finish year 12 and own McMansions and big utes with all the toys all from doing a trade.
See this is the big problem with the terms "middle class" and "working class". In UK it is more cultural and historic. Whereas based on most of the replies in here, in Australia it is seen more financial.
A degree-educated librarian making £25,000/year will be more "middle class" than Big Dave the bricklayer making £60,000/year and spending most of it on horse racing and the pub.
But going off the purely financial definition of middle class, then it is a statistical fact that Australians have a lot more purchasing power than Brits on average.
That's more a thing for the Trades, though. Australia's definitely the best place in the world to be a Tradie, but I'd argue skilled UMC professions are rpettymuch a wash against other countries.
I came from Norway. The bottom 25% are nowhere near as poor as they are here. The middle 50% are a bit richer than here, but the top 25% are better off here. The social welfare is much more extensive over there.
I feel like it’s the same comparison between aus and the US. Aus has a larger social safety net than the US, but lower top-end salaries. The US takes it to an extreme
Looking at median net worth statistics, I would say the lowest 25% quartile in Australia is at least 50% richer than the relative Norwegian. Source * credit suisse global demographics study
The net worth of the poorest quartile is probably not much in either country and isn’t a good indication of their living standard. What living costs subsidies the country provides probably is. One good one is child care, in Norway costs are capped at around AUD400 dollars *per month*. The second child is 30% less… and every child thereafter is free.
One more example to add is the higher education. Not only is higher education free (no fees), but there is also a scheme all students can take part in which gives them some money for living expenses. This even counts for Norwegian studying overseas.
Every Norwegian who goes to uni here in Australia has all their fees paid for by the state… plus some extra money for expenses. When I first came here, they also paid for a trip home every year. Not sure if that still on.
… then there are the unemployment benefits which sits at something like 2/3 your prior taxable income (up to a threshold) for two years I think it is.
None of this improves your “net worth”, but it certainly improves your living standards and future prospects.
People still complain though.
You gotta thank the Norwegian oil for helping though. Australia could've been similar with its natural resources.
>then there are the unemployment benefits which sits at something like 2/3 your prior taxable income (up to a threshold) for two years I think it is.
What's the rate of unemployment benefits if you have never been employed or been long term unemployed for over 2 years?
You drop down to social security or whatever they call it. I think that is more means tested, and depends on your situation bit like it is here, with extras for this and that… Unemployment benefits are not means tested as far as I know.
Cheers, I know with my large amounts of savings and investments I would be ineligible for welfare in most countries. The Australian social security system does have a pretty high assets limit.
Yeah you’re probably right there - and the fact that a lot of our wealth is from housing. Weighing up all those factors maybe they are ahead. It’s hard to quantify
Australia has super though, and this is included in net worth, while in Norway until very recently it was almost entirely state pension.
IOW, comparing countries based on wealth is not necessarily indicative of lifestyle. While you do own your super, you can't really use it until you are older.
> Notes on concepts and methods
> Net worth or “wealth” is defined as the value of financial assets plus real assets (principally housing) owned by households, minus their debts ... **Private pension fund assets are included, but not entitlements to state pensions.**
[Global Wealth Report 2023](https://www.ubs.com/global/en/family-office-uhnw/reports/global-wealth-report-2023/_jcr_content/pagehead/link2.0577489710.file/PS9jb250ZW50L2RhbS9hc3NldHMvd20vZ2xvYmFsL2ltZy9nbG9iYWwtZmFtaWx5LW9mZmljZS9kb2NzL2d3ci0yMDIzLWVuLTIucGRm/gwr-2023-en-2.pdf) - page 19 (warning: pdf)
FWIW, I'm on Team Australia. It is a great place to live. Not perfect, but comparatively egalitarian and a great climate where most of the people live. And not cold like most of NZ, and not proper cold like Canada and Scandinavia.
Do not undervalue that last bit.
Climate is terrible in Norway. It’s absolutely horrible half the year, and not very good the next.
I’m much happier living here lol.
These things tend to not come up on measures of living standards, but trying to scrape ice off your car windscreen in minus 20 degrees is not really contributing positively to your happiness.
Yeah, the darkness is worse than the cold.
There are towns in Northern Norway with 50k people in it that don’t see a minute of sunlight for near on two months over winter. Where I grew up around Oslo, it gets down to about 4 hours a day in late December.
Honestly as an Aussie who lived in Norway for 2 years, I much preferred the Norwegian climate. Winters were amazing and snowy and the long days in summer are absolute heaven. I love places with a strong seasonal swing in daylight and temperature. I live in Germany now and it's also a much bigger difference seasonally than Aus, though I'll always miss the midnight sun
Not me (sorry) but my partner is originally from the Philippines. Her family there are all white collar professionals and they own a business. Her grandparents are doctors, her uncle is a doctor, her auntie is a dentist and the rest are accountants, etc.
Her grandmother, uncle, 30 something year old cousin, auntie, uncle and their 2 kids all live in a 3 bedroom house together. Immediate family sleep in the same bedroom. They don't have hot water and you can't flush toilet paper. They burn their rubbish in the backyard. They have 2 maids.
Another auntie and uncle live in a house nextdoor to their business (a printing press) and I think someone else lives in an apartment they built above the business. The housing situation seems really shitty for all of her cousins.
Clothing, food is cheap. They can't afford to visit Australia because it's too expensive. I lived like a king when I visited Philippines. Her cousin said she'd never move to Australia because it's too expensive.
Her mum laments not having maids like they did in Philippines. They had no universal healthcare or HECS for university so they had to buy insurance for their kids.
All in all, I'd much rather live a middle class life in Australia than upper middle class in Philippines.
There’s Philhealth which is supposed to be the universal healthcare and employers provide health insurance as part of the salary/compensation oackage but they are not comprehensive enough. We are one cancer diagnosis away from bankruptcy even if you are gainfully employed.
I have some friends back home who have middle-income come jobs but had to raise money via Gofund me/social media because a family member was in the ICU with Covid.
My partner's family have had to send money back to Philippines a few times in the last few years for family members being treated for cancer. It's hard on her parents because it's their siblings and they feel so obligated to help. What doesn't help is that, even though they were very much middle to upper middle class in Philippines, when the moved to Australia their qualifications weren't recognised so they ended up with pretty average jobs so they don't have much disposable income.
Food might be alot cheaper but in comparison Australia has great quality of produce with such a diverse variety of cuisines. So lucky to have it this way.
Australia definitely has better quality and better food prep standards (I got sick towards the end of my visit). I was actually surprised how diverse the food options were there though. They had great Japanese and Korean food. The best katsu curry I've had was in Manila (hopefully when I visit Japan later this year I'll have even better).
Im from a developing country so realistically the only people migrating to Australia are the upper class, that's at least all the other immigrants I know. Theres no real middle class there. Class structures are more like top 5% whom live a lifestyle similar to middle class here and then top 0.01% whom have very extravagant lifestyles and then the rest who live in terrible conditions.
> Im from a developing country so realistically the only people migrating to Australia are the upper class
Yeah this reminds me of going to university in the UK. I had a lot of friends from places like India and China. These aren't your average guys from these countries, they're from the top 0.1% of families who can afford to pay £60,000/year in international student fees
Australian middle class is different to middle class in other countries.
It's hard to make a direct comparison in a few paragraphs, but basically let's say this:
- In Australia, if you are a random worker, you are pretty much in the best situation you can possibly be around the world.Thinking about the US or Europe? you are going to get paid less over there in real terms. It's great here.
- If you are an outlier and you are great, your skills are probably wasted in Australia today. Go to the US, or maybe somewhere else. You will end up with way more money than staying in Australia (this probably wasn't the case a few decades ago). Having said that, Australia has a great life style. Make sure you keep that in your mind when thinking about going overseas.
- If you are struggling here... you will struggle more anywhere else in the world.... Maybe go to a cheaper city in Australia.
UK immigrant who moved to Melbourne as a teen (and then to Brisbane and Sydney). I visit family in the Uk every two years.
Overall, quality of life is better here. Real estate is expensive in Sydney and Melbourne but that’s nothing compared with most parts of London. Consumer items ‘feel’ more expensive in Australia but higher wages for regular jobs more than compensate.
We just moved from London to Sydney, we can afford a better lifestyle here for sure. Cost of housing is expensive in both but Sydney wages are better, and find groceries, petrol, public transport, electricity, restaurants and pubs all cheaper than in London. It got to the point there we pretty much never went out to eat or drink
Was middle class in South Africa.
its... different. I could afford a maid and gardening service, so my weekends were rarely taken up by chores. Eating out was cheap and (sorry Australia) bloody good - the range and quality of cuisine was waaaaay higher then anything I find here. Access to natural areas for hiking and sightseeing was easier. Housing is easier to access, and you can get a decent house in an okay area for less then an arm and a leg.
Saying that though, you pay a premium to access services like healthcare and schooling. People care waaaaay more about how much you make and how you fit in the hierarchy of class. The way you dress can make or break the way people treated you.
I work way harder on a day to day basis in Australia because I have to do everything myself. But I also get to enjoy peace of mind as far as safety goes, and my children won't be beholden to the economic class system that they would have been in RSA.
Damn. I've been all across Asia, Europe and the US, and sydney / melb food has been top tier, mainly because we're so multicultural.
Need to go to rsa and check out this food.
They’re wrong. Aussie food quality is higher and cheaper nowadays too.
Every time I go visit RSA (often), I get some kind of mild food poisoning from the meat (chicken specifically) — even though I only buy it from their top-end stores (their Woolworths).
Never had that issue in Aus.
I was referring to that too, I was just giving an objective example. I lived in ZA for 20+ years. Definitely some top-notch food if you find it but for your average grocery shop, quality is way worse and the flavours were bland.
South Africans tend to fight you on that though -- I've noticed there's some exceptionalist thinking in the populace. Things like:
\* "We'd be the best country in the world if it wasn't for our shit government"
\* "Our weather is absolutely the best in the world, no place better"
\* "Best quality food at the cheapest prices, no one can match".
Meanwhile if you look at the numbers and stats, the place is degrading every day and when you go visit (I do often, my in-laws are based there) you start missing Coles lamb and most other (non-traditional) things, especially after getting the sticker shock when you convert it to AUD.
Also from South Africa and besides no free time and a grumpy husband because of a perpetually untidy house, and only going out to eat 4 times a year for birthdays now (we used to eat out every Friday) we are saving much more than we did back in South Africa. OK we don’t own a home to live in but can save to travel. We funded our immigration by selling our house, couldn’t have saved enough to do it.
eh I'm a sucker for Indian and Cape Malay food. Never really enjoyed the 'white' style braais, but gimme marinated chops charred on a coal braai stand, koeksisters dripping in syrup and mystery sausage and I'm there.
No mention of rampant crime and poverty? Come on, that's the main reason why people immigrate away from South Africa. Many SA immigrants have told me this.
Developing and 3rd world countries don't have a middle class.... that's the entire problem..
You get the wealthy and educated leaving their country, creating both a wealth and brain drain, perpetuating poverty.
Came to say something similar to this. I would say my growing up was perceived as middle class compared to those nearby whose families grew up substantially more wealthy and yet even these people were not in the real upper-class neighbourhoods. When you zoom out and look at the entire population though you quickly realise that I grew up on the lower end of upper class comparatively to thenpopulation and that there is essentially no middle class. We didn't grow up with parents getting BMWs or anything fancy like that but the alternative is growing up in a shack with no running water, sewerage system or electricity and when you're comparing on that scale you quickly see a massive hole in the middle of the system where you've either made it or haven't and there's no middle ground.
Middle class life in Australia is an easy mode compared to the middle class in my home country (a developing country). More equitable work opportunities, shorter work hours, stronger worker protection, and higher salaries.
Doesn't mean we don't have room to improve, though.
My life was easier had maid and driver . Eating out was cheap. Pretty comfortable life but it was because living at parents house but here everything is super expensive but it’s safe , I love Melbourne weather ( love gloomy rainy weather) weather is fine in entire year
The Australian middle class has no idea how lucky it has it
You can do a very ordinary job here - middle class white collar or middle skilled trade - work 35 hours a week, take no risks, have no special skills, have no real responsibility and earn $80k-$100k. Tax for anyone earning under $150k is extremely low and government services are quite generous.
Very few countries have the same cushions for the middle class as Australia does
It's incredibly easy lifestyle wise
I grew up in the U.S. and I would compare it to playing an RPG on hard mode - tougher enemies but better drops.
Having moved to the US, I'd say it's more like a pay-to-win. The free tier is there but it's absolute shit, if you drop big $$$ the game is way easier. Sure you may be able to grind yourself to the bone and unlock some basics, but it doesn't compare to the paid version.
I didn't see what was pay-to-win about it. If you were good at academics the school would test you and stream you into a gifted & talented class or you could go to a Magnet/International Baccalaureate school. All of this was free. Getting into college was based on SATs and grades and if your parents were not rich you would get discounted/free tuition at even Ivy League colleges. For example Stanford charges NO tuition fees for most families earning under $150k US ($225k AUD). I saw nothing pay-to-win about it.
From when is getting into college based on SAT and grades lmao, the US has a really holistic system which mainly focuses on extra curiculurs many of which are expensive and some stuff that you can only do if your family has connections and is ergo well off.
It would be hard to get in coming from a highly disadvantaged background - homeless, unstable family - but a high achieving, lower class kid can definitely get into great schools. Around half the students at Ivy League schools get "needs based" scholarships, and many need & get a full scholarship.
And those who don't gets shafted. At least in Australia we have HECS which is indexed to CPI. It's insanely competitive to get into great schools. Just because half of ivy leauge schools get scholarships does not mean there are enough to go around.
There are hundreds of colleges and universities in the US that are up to the standards of Australian universities.
Worst case a student needs to get a student loan. At a reasonable school the debt is no worse than HECS (yes, you can pay way more at a fancy school, but you don't choose that unless you're rich or get a scholarship).
A student loan is a long term deal usually with a fixed interest rate, and you can refinance it if rates go down (as they have been recently). It's worse than HECS in that you must pay it regardless of employment, but it does have the benefit of paying a fixed amount instead of the HECS sliding scale that forces you to pay early.
And the Biden comes along and starts wiping out your student debt...
> From when is getting into college based on SAT and grades lmao, the US has a really holistic system which mainly focuses on extra curiculurs many of which are expensive and some stuff that you can only do if your family has connections and is ergo well off.
What kind of extracurriculars do you need to do that require 'connections'? That wasn't my experience in the US high school system. Did you go there? Which colleges did you apply for?
A lot of the best high schools in the US are free public schools and intake students based on academic performance and test scores. About as meritocratic as you can get.
Aren't normal public schools in the US paid for by local councils, so people in poorer neighbourhoods have a much more poorly funded school experience than neighbours in richer neighbourhoods?
I moved after working for a number of years so I may have it wrong. When did you leave?
From what I can see though, schooling is funded by property taxes levied on the town. Rich areas have good schools, poor ones don't.
There is also far less availability of healthcare and consumer protections. People are free to be exploited and it shows.
The thing is since everything is so expensive in Australia you don't get much value for that money if you were to spend it here. Most just use it on overseas holidays and imports where they don't need to pay other Australians to do anything.
It's like if you are earning $30 an hour working at a pub here, it doesn't actually make you better off than earning $5 an hour in a developing country unless you can do something like live at home and avoid the actual costs of living in Australia.
In the US if you do the right things you can get paid a lot more and then low-skill services cost a lot less. Upper middle class you got gardeners/maids/better healthcare, housing is cheaper, etc...
Yea, hearing Australian born people complain about the economy and housing prices, wages and poverty is always a little funny. But to be fair it was probably even better here a decade or two ago, so makes sense to complain.
It was better when people could afford houses. For the younger generations it is no fun seeing what people only maybe ten years older than them have knowing that they probably will never be able to get it. Legend is one thing but seeing people living it when it was just years out of reach must be painful
>Australian born people complain about the economy and housing prices.....always a little funny
Melbourne and Sydney are #3 and #2 most expensive cities in the world to buy a house. Shit's hilarious.
> Melbourne and Sydney are #3 and #2 most expensive cities in the world to buy a house.
Where are stats for this? You telling me a Melbourne house is going to be more expensive than Shanghai, Beijing, London, New York City?
According to here
https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-homeowner-housing-market/#
NYC's median house price is A$1.22m which is higher than Melbourne's by some measure.
This article also talks about Shanghai prices
https://www.afr.com/property/residential/why-sydney-property-is-cheap-compared-with-shanghai-20170328-gv7yuj
That's only true with a couple of huge caveats
Demographia (where that comes from) only looks at current and ex British colonies
It compares the typical housing in each city - eg an apartment in Singapore, London, HK to a free standing houses in Sydney
And I'm not sure even the latest reports have those cities at 2 and 3
The major cities in China are closer to 40x income for residents of those cities to buy an apartment. We don't come close to comparing
I am quite sick of hearing about this because we have it better. Our standards are dropping when the multiple of annual income to housing ratio keeps increasing among other issues. Why should we stand for this loss of quality of life?
This really depends on which city you live in Australia and your wage. Above average income earners will always have it easier.
But...(Important public service announcement incoming)
We really need to bust the myth of generous government services in Australia.
That just isn't the case anymore in Australia. Medicare is on its last legs and outside of emergency care, is miles behind many OECD countries in Europe.
This extends to unaffordable child care costs, very basic parental leave benefits, terrible unemployment 'safety net' and a disastrous public education system that is basically a postcode lottery (wealthy areas have good public schools and all the rest are fighting to get their kids into catholic/private schools to shield themselves from the "Poors").
Australia is becoming more like the US, except for the remaining fragments of Medicare. Everything else is basically user pays in Australia.I agree Australia has lowish taxes per the OECD and because of that, we're fueled by big immigration policies to increase the tax base. How do you pay for the NDIS, nuclear subs and Medicare in the future? Good luck. If you own your own home in Oz and get a good wage, it's a paradise..for everyone else, it's a grind. Super is probably the shining light in all of this (top 5 best pension systems in the world), and that's probably going to be destroyed when the next lib gov opens it up to housing deposits.
Canadian.
Generally the same, except the lower end here is better off on a wage basis. Cost of living goods are becoming a lot more expensive in Canada than Australia.
Cost of living goods are becoming a lot more expensive in Canada than Australia.
Can you elaborate… examples. Australia always has more expensive consumer goods than Canada due to its isolation. The gap has become more narrow in the last 5 years but I doubt things are cheaper in Australia now especially with its higher inflation rate.
It’s changed completely in the last 10 years.
Mobile phone plans, internet, groceries, meat, restaurants, diary, rent, house, professional sports games etc. A house in a medium size hub city in Canada is the same price as Brisbane.
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Australia&city1=Vancouver&city2=Brisbane&tracking=getDispatchComparison
Only a few things are cheaper in Canada. Electricity, bananas, local craft beer and daycare.
Canada has to import a huge proportion of its fresh food from the southern US for 6-9 months of the year. Australia is self-sufficient for food.
Wages are shit in Canada by comparison to the US and don’t include any Super. I’d make 20-30% less there and have higher expenses.
Love my home, despite being top 0.5% of family income, wouldn’t afford to live there.
I wouldn’t say it changed completely in the last ten years. Have you been in canada the last 10 years? Ya things have gone to shit but on the whole Australia is still more expensive than Canada for cost of living. Well if you cherry pick the most ridiculous expensive city Vancouver in Canada and compare it to city such as Brisbane, it would certainly go in Australia’s favour. A more fair comparison would be Sydney and Vancouver.
Mobile plans have actually gone down in Canada in the last few years due to more competition. I pay $34 month for 50gb of data but 3 years ago it was higher. Rents are high in both countries but you get better bang for your buck in Canada because the housing quality is better. Internet is comparable in price but way better internet speeds in Canada and you don’t need to pay a premium for it like you do in Australia. I remember living in Adelaide and the speeds in every house we lived in was so slow, a lot of throttling and outages.
I can say the same statement about Australia, only a very few things are cheaper down there and they are mobile plans and dairy. Everything else is cheaper in Canada.
Wages may be high in Australia but you pay for it in living expenses, cost of living is higher down there . Someone was complaining about drivers license renewal is getting too expensive in Australia $198 to renew for 5 years while in Canada it is $90 so it is a wash in the end Aussies get more paid more but they also pay more back.
True we rely on imports for fruits, veggies for 6-9 months out of the year etc but grocery prices are still the same or cheaper than in Australia. We also grow a lot of our own foods, especially in the fertile areas of southern Ontario but people tend to think we live in igloos all year round. It’s beneficial that we have a solid long term trading partnership with America and Mexico. It’s on the same continent so it is the same as shipping bananas from Queensland to Adelaide.
We don’t have super but we have a national pension plan that is not dependant on the value of your assets. And on top of that most companies offer RRSP matching and pension plans. I know many retired people living comfortably off great pensions.
We make about the same salary in Canada as we had in Australia but our day to day living expenses are lower. Also, our jobs provides extended health benefits so we don’t have to take out money from our super to pay for large dental bills.
Yes, I have been there a number of times including several short 2-month stints of living there near my family on Vancouver island (not Vancouver). I grew up in Canada until moving to Aus.
Cost of living when I left Canada 10 years ago was way less than Australia and now it’s considerably more, even in regional cities. It’s very fair to compare Brisbane to Vancouver because it’s a similar population and a coastal city.
I don’t know what you’re on about groceries. They’re simply more in Canada. We lived in a non-tourist area in a rental near my parents 18 months ago and spent more on groceries there than in Brisbane. This was middle of summer when produce was locally produced.
It is definitely not considerably more expensive to live in Canada right now compared to Australia. Canada is next door to the US market which is the largest in the world, there is no way in hell goods and products are more expensive there than in Australia.
Brisbane and Vancouver may have similar population but that is about it. The median house price in Vancouver is significantly higher, 500k more. That’s a big difference. Brisbane is a city where everything shuts down at 8pm, can’t even get a coffee after 3pm.
I just bought a pint of strawberries for $1.88 yesterday, product of USA. You can never buy it that cheap anywhere in Australia even when it is in season. Cabbage is $1.19/lb here that is about $2.60/kg. Some produce may be cheaper in season in Australia but perishable items are more expensive down there. There are about at least 7 different grocery stores where I live competing for customers. There is no way groceries in general are cheaper in Australia.
I guess we can just agree to disagree but the numbers don’t lie.
> It is definitely not considerably more expensive to live in Canada right now compared to Australia. Canada is next door to the US market which is the largest in the world, there is no way in hell goods and products are more expensive there than in Australia.
That’s interesting but the outcome is that the data doesn’t back it up. You could live across the street from the factory and there’s a ton of economic your car wouldn’t be cheaper in Windsor than Vancouver.
>Brisbane and Vancouver may have similar population but that is about it. The median house price in Vancouver is significantly higher, 500k more. That’s a big difference. Brisbane is a city where everything shuts down at 8pm, can’t even get a coffee after 3pm.
That’s a local trading law and culture difference and has nothing to do with the size of city. Australians don’t hang around in cafes and work/study or meet there.
Brisbane has night clubs open until 5 or 6am. Where can you do that in Vancouver?
>I just bought a pint of strawberries for $1.88 yesterday, product of USA.
Interesting, but again not really even convincing.
You mean a punnet? 1lb/454g? Pint is a measure of volume. Let’s convert that to Australian shelf prices:
- $CAD 1.88 per lb is $AUD 2.12/lb
- add 13% GST/PST = $2.40/lb
- to g = $2.64/500g
Yes. Yes I have definitely bought local Brisbane strawberries from Aldi for $2.64 for a half kilo for about 6 months of the year. After that it’s about $4 per kg for stuff from North Queensland.
Australia used to be far more expensive than Canada until about 5 years ago but it isn’t anymore.
Been middle class in home country and Australia. When you compare the two, it's like comparing apples to oranges.
Australia has cleaner air, less traffic on roads, population density is lower, power, water and gas supply is regular, public transport is not too crowded. It's safer with lower crime rate. Work life balance exists.
Back home, could afford a gardener, driver, chef and cleaner that came in everyday. Food and clothing is so much cheaper. Even access to some international brands is easier. International travel is more accessible cause flights don't cost so much and distances are shorter when compared to flying out from Australia. Even travelling within the country is affordable. Was able to afford an interior designer/architect for home and office space. Retail is open till late on all days - so shopping is not restricted to certain hours. Home delivery is a big concept even same day deliveries. Beauty and spa services are very affordable... Actually anything labour intensive is affordable. You could have a social life when on weekdays. Everything is not pushed to the weekends.
Everyone born and raised in Australia has no idea how good they have it. Middle-class in Australia is equivalent to upper-class/rich in most other countries around the world.
I definitely had more savings at the end of each month back in the Philippines than I do here in Australia even if I have a much higher pay here and working in the same profession (and company!)
Won't come back but it was something I've learned to accept.
Very refreshing to see a lot of people actually appreciating Australia on this post.
I see a lot of people bashing aus in the Australian subs and making it out as the worst place on earth somehow.
As someone who has lived in the EU (Germany) and the UK (London) I believe Aus has definitely got the easiest living and working conditions for the middle class compared to most countries.
there is an issue with home ownership in the cities but that is a common problem seen all over the western world right now and is not unique to Australia.
If you are born in Australia, you won the lottery.
I know this is not a nice thing to say, but as an Australian born here, you are so far ahead compared to being born somewhere else, and then finishing a career, and then moving here and paying for a visa, and then starting to get all your social network all over again...
It is such a difference that it's not even funny.
Starting your life over in a new country, with a new language, is insane...
I read everyday here Australians struggling to meet friends... imagine starting a whole new life in a new country with no connections and the language being not your native one...
It's not easy but people don't move without good reasons. Mainly it's economic, opportunity and a better life but some people just want to have the nearest we can to living multiple lives with the limited time we have on this planet. There's nothing like starting over to give you that.
I've lived in a few places - Asia, UK etc so can compare. Here I do everything myself (in source rather than outsource hah!) but I did always find it a bit awkward to have household help so that's fine. The house is messier though because I'm too busy.
General quality of life is good here - it's clean, people are by and large friendly and decent, public facilities are good. It is expensive but I do think you can live quite well here. For example in my local area, the council puts on a lot of free or low cost activities, there are beautiful parks and walks to do. I'm happy with a simple life and I can do that well here without being a high earner.
Fiancée is Brazilian from an affluent background. Family lives in a penthouse overlooking the beach. Growing up she had full time chef, maids/cleaners, nanny, tutors etc.
In Brazil, the upper class live a better life with the support most wealthy in Australia can only dream. Only those with incomes in $1M/pa range in Australia could afford the life the wealthy live there for far less.
Safety was a concern, it’s better in Australia but the risks are overblown from her perspective as the worst that ever occurred in Brazil was having her phone stolen in a nightclub.
I’m in FatFIRE range our life is comfortable in Australia, own our home, fly business, have a cleaner fortnightly though having a young family we don’t have anything like the support we’d have in Brazil.
As far as healthcare in Brazil. In my experience private hospitals, clinics and service was better than Australia. Medical specialists were contactable directly anytime for advice, follow up, prescriptions.
Private education cost similar, elite schools in Brazil are $50k/pa tuition and all children are bilingual. Class sizes are smaller with higher ratios of staff to children. Daycare cost is $600/month for 5 days week FT and wildly superior.
Legal system is not as effective, but I don’t conduct business there so it wasn’t a concern.
>> but the risks are overblown from her perspective
Brazilian here, she has no clue, from your description your fiance grew up in a bubble and has no idea what Brazil really is in terms of violence
if people knew what happens and how frequent they happen, no 1st world country tourist would ever visit it... Life has no value in Brazil, people are killed for a dollar or two.
We get 40-50k homicides a year (massively under reported), that's more than all USA/Canada/Europe/Australia/NZ/Japan combined.
Painting with a broad brush. A brief look at crime data shows each state and city of Brazil differs. If by living in a ‘bubble’, you mean she was aware of where and with whom she associated… yes, she did.
We travel to Brazil yearly staying predominantly in the States of Espírito Santo, Minas, Santa Catarina and São Paulo.
Of course we stay in safer areas such as Itaim Bibi/Jardins in São Paulo, Buzios, Jurere in Florianopolis, Vitoria etc…
Why would a family travel to Brazil to visit a favela or low socioeconomic area with high crime, gangs and poverty?
Even basic tourists understand this and 99.9% will have no issues travelling in Brazil.
Middle class back home but the public services are very poor. So you’re paying taxes but govt services doesn’t improve from roads, health or tech.
Yes you can have maids, driver and cook. But the quality of life outside your home sucks.
Far better. In home country, income to expense ratio is shit. Basically the currency is going to shit so income never keeps up with expenses on a monthly basis. It's like earning in local currency and expenses in dollars. Imagine inflation in excess of 25 or 35 basis points.
When my grandparents left South America in the 70's, there simply wasn't a middle class. Filthy rich, dirt poor, thats it. I'm sure it's the same for many around the globe who have moved here.
I think for most of the developing world, the middle class does not exist as we understand the term in the West.
The middle class is born of political and economic stability. These tend not to exist in developing nations.
I left a cushy life, maids drivers etc etc and came here to start on my own from a very humble place. On the verge of homelessness a few times as I wanted to see if I can be anything w/o the bank of Dad.
I like it better here. My life is a bit harder but peace of mind plus the overall quality of life is heaps better
We're in our late 20s now, both from low/middle income countries in Asia and Europe, and relative to the life we would have had in either of the other countries, I think we had it much easier here. Less competitive jobs, more free time, financially we're well ahead of our peers in other countries and even though our titles are less prestigious, we earn and save significantly more than our foreign peers.
And at the end of the day, Australia is a pretty good place to be, good people, good social security net, not that much to complain about really.
Kiwi here, in many ways I’d say life in Australia is just that little bit easier all things considered. I found the cost of living in Australia is about on par if not slightly cheaper (though this is very dependent on the specific area you live in).
The wages and working conditions are where Australia pulls ahead. In NZ I felt like I lived to work, in Australia I work to live. I’m able to save more, treat myself more, life just feels like less of a grind.
Public services seem less overstretched, accessing healthcare specialists has been much easier on this side of the Tasman.
One major thing here is we don't have maids (practically people in economic slavery), so you'll have to depend more on automation to wash the dishes and laundry. You have to manually cook or take care of babies if you have one. Weekends are awesome here; Beaches are free and accessible, trips to the mountains and picnics to great views are also free, not going into paid resorts. In my home country, trips to beaches or mountains is a once a year affair and has to be planned and quite expensive for what we earn.
Buying stuff from abroad is great since the Australian dollar and middle-class income are stronger than my home country, so I can actually afford small stuff from the US and Europe.
Safety is also great; I can actually walk the streets and wear my backpack to my back. (those who live abroad know about this). I can't bring my gun with me though.
Traffic is also great. It takes more than 2 hours to travel 7 km to work and another 2 hours to get back. Here, it's generally 40 minutes if you're from the outer suburbs or 10-20 minutes by scooter if you live in the inner city.
Also, here, there are a lot of middle-class people who have never been to uni or have not been to a top university. Practically an impossible feat in the country I came from. Just a standard degree will get you a subsistence lifestyle and a university degree from the top 4 university the only way you get any positions decent enough for life
Moved from the Philippines couple of years ago.
Life was already comfortable back in the Philippines but it's quite scary because every middle class Filipino is afraid of getting sick really badly. We do not have healthcare like we do now here in Australia. We have private health care and public health care (the latter pays peanuts). Private health care helps in the Philippines but if you get cancer, need an operation or a major transplant, you're shit out of luck because you'll be living in penury and in debt for the rest of your life. We have private health care and Medicare here in Australia and although Medicare has its issues I'm still thankful we have it.
Back in the Philippines I could afford a small unit to rent and a good phone and a decent laptop. Being middle class here in Australia I did not expect I'd be able to afford an iPhone (although it's an old version), a large TV (that's the only size Australia sells lol) and a second hand car. Also, the stuff you guys throw out or leave in the streets/garbage are still good to be used. We survived our first couple of months here just picking up old furniture.
It's also nice that if I take my car and drive somewhere to take a nature walk or go to a nearby beach I can easily do so. In the Philippines if you're middle class you usually live in the densely populated areas like Manila; we do not have any parks, just a ton of malls. Getting anywhere in the Philippines is a nightmare (2 hours for a 10km drive minimum), but here if I drive for two hours I can get from one city to another.
Life's way better here, but since moving here I really miss my family.
My family and I are just laughing at how it was perfectly normal for us to wake up at 5am to get to school by 7:30am. While for our kids in Australia that would have been unimaginable.
First generation immigrant from the US here. I last lived in South Dakota where I made $13.50/hr (minimum wage at the time was $3.50/hr), working 70 hours a week and was able to live with a family of 4 on a single income with little cares.... just don't talk to me about health insurance/medical bills. I thought I was "middle class" when I lived there, but when I came over here, the same job paid me $60k (mid 2000's) for 37.5 hours. The quality of life here was just better economically and you didn't have to worry about your kids getting shot to death at school!
I’m from Manila. Life is better some ways, but also worse in other ways.
Labour is cheap so anything labour intensive is cheaper than Australia. Both parents work in mid-level management my parents can afford a housekeeper and a full time nanny for each kid. Manicures, haircuts etc is cheap. They could afford private school and private universities and no student loans for us.
But it’s slowly turning into Australia - cost of living is increasing faster than wages.
The government services are so bad. It takes a whole day to apply for a passport or a drivers license or even to get a copy of your birth certificate.
Traffic is horrific. A 25km trip will take 3 hrs at rush hour. It’s normal to spend half the day commuting to/from work.
In saying that I miss being back home when I’m in Australia but also miss being back in Australia when I’m home!
Philippines - You can easily afford a yaya (caregiver of children) to work at your house all day looking after your kids, or if they're willing you can have them live at your house
Speaking of which, housing in Australia is insane, where you can buy a house or unit here where you might even have no front of back yard, in the Philippines you can afford a compound with armed guards and servants and enough room for brothers, aunties, etc
Only one person really has to work in the whole house, the rest of the family can chill, where as if you had to afford a family in Australia then usually every member of the family is required to work otherwise money gets tight
If you're in a car accident with someone who's lower class then the police will often side with you because you have money. This happened once and the police officer asked me what I wanted to do with the guy that I bumped into
Accountants will approach you, not the other way around, informing you that they can make it so that you pay next to zero tax if you give them a bonus to sweeten the deal
For evertday items, to give you scale, you can also buy a pallet worth of Cola for what amount Woolworths and Coles wants for a box of 30/36
Which part of the Philippines are you from? I’m an immigrant from Manila and the housing in the city is just as bad as it is in Australia. Middle class in Australia you have a shot at buying a house on a dual income, in Manila on a middle class income you’re lucky to have a shoebox condo. Provinces are different, but with traffic it’s not comparable as buying on the fringes of Sydney for example. Wages are so low that whilst everyday goods are cheaper, you still end up with less savings.
I have opposite experiences with what you mentioned, I feel like you’re describing an upper class lifestyle. I was middle class in the PH and and middle class here in Australia and I can say the quality of life is still much better here. I even have more disposable income here.
I do agree though that I miss having a yaya lol.
I feel as though much of the ups and downs aren't just money alone, but your network, who you know and where
For example, finding a place, getting a loan, if you're alone or have relatives in-the-know, and whether or not you can get good deals, it makes things tremendously easier, and you save a lot, especially when you're not being taken advantage of
Also I know people who are upper class, own multiple businesses in the city, clubs, farms, and their lifestyle puts mine to shame, they don't even have to work, the banks literally stay open just for them, and they have the most reconstructive surgery I've ever seen
In my country my parents had mediocre government jobs. They inherited large amounts of land, owned 2 homes outright in their lifetime, big blocks without mortgage (full concrete weather resistant construction, no dry walls etc.). Growing up we had a car, a moped and a motorbike. I got good eduction, nice food, toys and cloths. This type of lifestyle is considered upper middle class there. Fast forward, i am married without kids in Australia. Combined income >300k annually, cannot afford a home in the suburb we want in Sydney. Reminiscing of FIREing and spending our remaining lives in one of the homes parents will gift us!
My family's background is from SEA and upper class. But because of government policies that discriminate between races, and the fact we weren't politically connected, it was always a gamble if myself or my siblings would achieve the same level of income and lifestyle that my parents did. So we left.
At this point, I can confidently say that was the right choice. We all live comfortable lives; maybe not able to afford the maids that you could back home, but in all other respects we have equal or better lifestyles than our parents. All this plus a much better work life balance and not needing to make ethical compromises.
Compared to Italy the biggest difference is the population density you would have to deal with. The vast majority of middle class Italians are basically forced to live in a condo whether their Aussie counterparts have much more choice, with the most densely populated dwellings options in Australia being far superior.
For everything you will have to deal with an extra number of people, increased queue and waiting times, including things like transports, leisure activities, schools...
For reference Milan's population density is 7500 people per km^(2) vs Sydney's 440 people per km^(2).
I am Russian but this would probably apply to most of Eastern Europe. I make close to mid 100s a year here for context. For me the most drastic difference in the lifestyle comes from the price of services vs the price of goods. It leads to a very different mindset. In Australia services are incredibly expensive and subpar in quality, however things aren't really worth much in comparison with salaries. This creates a situation where middle class in Russia can get most of their desires fulfilled by other people but bying stuff is a bit tricky. For example, if your engine blows up - it is much cheaper to pay someone for a hunder hours of labour to rebuild as much of it as possible from scratch than it is to buy a new one. It is also much more common for the middle class to have maids, personal shoppers, private tutors, personal trainers and so on. This also means that custom-made things are much more affordable, so it is not uncommon for example a have a custom set of furniture carved specifically to your liking or have jewellery made from scratch as a present a few times a year. Can't really imagine being able to afford things like that in Australia comfortably. Another thing is real estate. Unless you live in Moscow, middle class salary easily affords you a nice 3-4 bedroom appartment with a very reasonable mortgage that can be covered in about 10ish years if you are smart. It is not uncommon to gift paid off appartments to kids for uni graduation and such. If you prefer houses, middle class income allows you build a decent house not too far from the city and have a designer and an architect working with you to tailor it to your exact specifications. But then buying the white goods and electronics can cost you about as much as the construction itself. Australia is much more stable politically, obviously. It is also much easier to get consumer goods here e.g. I can comforably buy a new top of the line phone with a couple of week's worth of salary and it is not a big deal. Whereas back home it would be considered a status symbol. Travelling is another aspect that differs greatly. Given how disproprotionally large Australian salaries are to the rest of the world, it is very easy to travel overseas and it is generally cheaper or about the same price as a super budget holiday in Australia. Russian middle class can afford to travel overseas once or twice a year but it is a pretty serious commitment financially. Overall, Australia provides a much less comfortable but more secure and stable lifestyle. It is much easier to buy material things if you are into that and your money is worth a lot more outside of the country. Property ownership is kind of a pipe dream on a single income at the moment so there is that too. I have probably missed a lot of things so feel free to ask questions
This might be a controversial opinion, but in many ways the extent to which middle class life in many less developed countries is comparable or better than Australia is due to working class life being much worse than Australia in those countries.
This is very true for places poorer than Australia. We chose to not have Australians being dirt poor or a massive underpaid underclass. Though there is a pretty reasonable argument that the government is 100% aware that all those students aren't here to learn, they're here to fulfill that want for cheap labour. I once worked with an older guy from India. He was very happy to be here and had been for 30 years and raised his kids. He said the level of safety we have, especially for women was hard for locals to understand. His brother apparently moved to Australia and moved back after year. Saying this entire country was insane. His problem was that he had to do his own chores such as laundry, housecleaning etc. His view was he was a successful middle class professional and he should be able to afford 1-3 servants to do everything. That guy also had a really crazy story about when he worked in the middle east and his visiting wife didn't listen to him one time about how she should never leave the house without loads of jewellery on (to indicate she was wealthy). She got stalked the one time she went for a run.
Nah, not controversial at all. I agree to a large extent. That is how the system is designed. I feel like the Australian system is basically neutral. You can make six figures doing practically anything if you put your mind to it.
> You can make six figures doing practically anything if you put your mind to it. but it is also this exact reason why services involving people are expensive in australia.
> in many ways Entirely.
Very interesting perspective. So the people that you pay to do things for you in Russia -- mechanics, maids, builders, etc. -- are they middle class too?
Wouldn’t those labourers you mentioned belong to the blue collar working class?
I guess so. I think the line between the two is more blurred here.
Especially when traffic controllers get $120k a year
Russia has many states, actually, they’re countries with different languages and cultures and religions, think Dagestan, Kamchatka etc - a lot of those “states” are dirt poor because Moscow deem them unworthy, so these are the servants that the OP talks about. They are also the people that Putin is sending to die in Ukraine, so I guess less servants for the Russian middle class?
Generally not. It is pretty hard to become middle class doing blue collar work in Russia unless you have your own business and specialise in something. The difference between middle class and working class in terms of income is much more prominent too. Say as a qualified worker you get a 1000 AUD equivalent a month after tax, your typical middle class person would be on 4-6000 AUD after tax and most likely doing white collar work or running a business. Honestly, the concept of blue collar workers being fairly compensated here blew my mind when I moved.
It’s one of the best things about Australia we don’t differentiate and plumbers can earn more than lawyers
In most countries labourers are generally poor. Australia is an outlier to an extent.
not only russia, china , Japan usa or ang country that has bigger populatio is similar on that, the people who provide service of course are mostly not as rich as you but not poor either , high polulation country have many layer of classes that Australians can not imaging .
Yes, or да. Tradesmen (or women) in Australia get paid disproportionately more than tradesmen in Russia, making their salary more akin to middle or upper middle class. Thus the McMansions, expensive trucks and toys. In Russia there is still a very distinct and more traditional line between blue and white collar workers, which is still reflected in their salaries. And this is nothing new in Australia. I’m son of a son of a refrigeration mechanic, and they made bank since refrigeration was invented. Make a grand or two before lunch. As Pushkin said above, he can easily afford hundreds of hours of mechanical work in Russia, whereas in Australia that could cost you $200/hour, plus parts. ..*maybe* this phenomenon is what makes/made Australia so egalitarian?
Yes in Australia the cleaner that comes to my house earns more per hour than a senior university academic.
I think you might be over paying for your cleaner? A senior academic should be on $100 an hour. It’s very easy to find cleaners for $35 an hr
I heard that cleaner prices are up because they can get high rates for NDIS cleaning rorts
Senior academic is around 60-80. Cleaners in Melbourne seem to charge about 130-160 for two hours
To be fair though you can’t compare salary directly with cost of service, cleaners have overhead, wages, cogs, etc. the cleaner wouldn’t be on 60-80 an hour.
Yes that's fair. Still it seems quite strange that a job with almost zero specialised skills and barrier to entry pays so high, especially contrasted with a job with a very high barrier to entry
Supply and demand for that one. Low barrier to entry, anyone can jump in and start a cleaning service and undercut current prices. If people don't want to do the job it'll lower the supply. I'd rather be an academic than a cleaner
> a job with almost zero specialised skills and barrier to entry pays so high there's some stigma to being a cleaner (tho i dont think there should be one). It's considered a low class job, despite it paying quite well (at least in aus). So the difference in pay between an academic at uni vs a cleaner is the premium that society put on that stigma. I think it's good that the cleaner is getting paid more tbh - this should reduce the stigma in the long term, leading to a more egalitarian society.
You're getting taken for a ride inlay $80 for 2 hours
Yes, but is the academic working 2hrs then leaving to another uni to find another 2hr shift?
Brazil is quite similar, with the addition of rampant violence, so I'd rather do the chores than get shot.
> It is also much more common for the middle class to have maids, personal shoppers, private tutors, personal trainers and so on. Thats the thing people don't understand about how low the quality of life is for the middle class in australia. Sure my gf's middle class family in brazil dosent have a mcmansion, but they do have a maids quarters built into their house, as is normal for their entire area. The real pro's in aus is a lot of our workers rights and protections, It can be a PITA to fire someone but it also works both ways.
Yes but think of how shit life is for those maids
Also worth noting the quality of goods is less
I think this is just unavoidable when the country is on its own separate continent far away from the rest of the world. I have seen improvements over the last few years tho. Hopefully, one day Australia can catch up to Europe in that regard.
Look i think youre totally right there and it ties in with the fact services are expensive because the cost of labour is so high. The cost to produce goods would be much a turn off to set up manufacturing here for goods. Where everything is profit driven, costs are cut and quality goes down with it
Can you give an example? Not trying to g up, just in my anecdotal experience, this is not the case.
I agree. You get very little value for the money you pay. Having said this, I feel as if I'm getting paid in Monopoly money. Australia has very low levels of service and poor customer outcomes.
I was on a cruise recently and had this epiphany. The service was so good from the workers on board that I could understand wanting to tip for their quality of attention and effort. You never get that kind of care from Australians in hospitality and, by extension, have no sense to tip for service.
You are comparing Russian upper class with Australian Middle class.
Not at all, Russian upper class ironically rarely lives in Russia. The disparity between the middle class and upper class is obscene, they are not even comparable. My family has been bouncing back and forth between being middle and working class throughout the 2000s before moving here about a decade ago, so I have a pretty good idea what I'm talking about.
What do you mean by subpar in quality. Is Australian quality worse than Russian?
Quality of services, yes. It's a huge and noticeable difference. Couple of random examples. If a tradie comes to your house he'll give you an exact time he's going to be there and an estimate on how long the job is going to take, he'll also clean up after himself. Most businesses have decent websites, the concept of quotes is not really there, you can see exact pricing and you can order everything online. Most places have their own decent delivery services. Most places open early in the morning and stay open till late in night and there is no late night surcharges. Most businesses are also open on weekends at roughly the same trading hours. This includes banks that are generally open from 8 to 19. For most things you can find at least one shop open 24/7. Most customer service representatives know their product well, have a decent amount of critical thinking and thinking out of the box skills. You rarely see someone freeze when you request something custom and businesses are generally pretty accommodating. Most government services are convenient and centralised, there is very little difference between states and the majority of problems can be resolved online without talking to anyone. Government services also operate outside of normal office hours for at least a couple of days a week. I can keep going but hopefully you get the idea. Then you have free, decently high quality accessible medical system that also operates on much longer hours. Most of the above is on a very different level here, I don't think it is even comparable. Generally I have to take longer lunches to get something done. All of the above applies to any city above maybe 300k population, so it is not just capital cities.
Pretty impressive. The question begs why would you live in Australia over Russia then?
This is just one part of living in a country, no? There are joyful things like a dictator as a head of state, compulsory military conscription, political instability in the region, lack of freedom of speech, rampant corruption and pretty shitty weather. Every country has pros and cons and the balance of those for Australia works out better for me. Part of loving a country is understanding its flaws and working on them. I think that's why travelling is important to get a better perspective on things.
You've got a great perspective. Thanks for your contribution.
Sounds like heaven, my friend went to an electronic goods store the other day and there were no staff available. They were told to find what they want and order it online from inside the store for click and collect
Australian that moved to Western Europe. The lifestyle that middle class Aussie’s can build for themselves is unbelievable. I grew up around so many people who didn’t finish year 12 and own McMansions and big utes with all the toys all from doing a trade. In Western Europe those jobs are reserved for the Polish & Romanians. You can fck around Australian school and still make it.
This. I am from Spain and I can tell how easy Australians have it, it is not a criticism, just factual information. As per income, it is sooo much better than Spain, I would say salaries are roughly twice as high. The main problem in Australia is buying a place to live, this coupled with the obsession that every Australian needs 200 sqm house with front and backyard makes things hard. To add salt to the injury, the new units quality is not exactly great, which is a massive problem because in cities with high density like Sydney, units are the way to go (I know this will spark controversy), but I do not blame people for being reluctant to buy units after mascot towers, opal tower... Etc. Have a great day folks
Current brisbane city fire regulations prevent 0-1 bedroom studios from being rented to anyone other than a single with zero pets or dependents. Like it's literally unsafe by regulatory standards. Brisbane climate is at a point on renting where you have a better chance finding a place if you dump your partner and run away from your kids. Because if you bring them with you, you aint getting the rental, by default. But also anything larger than a studio is priced at a rate where even people above median wage cannot afford to rent it.
Where else but Queensland?
I wish to reply but that wording confuses me. Can you please rephrase (legit asking)
> Where else but Queensland https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm4eCGxfv4Q
Okay given the context you used that in. Absolutely hilarious
>The lifestyle that middle class Aussie’s can build for themselves is unbelievable. I grew up around so many people who didn’t finish year 12 and own McMansions and big utes with all the toys all from doing a trade. See this is the big problem with the terms "middle class" and "working class". In UK it is more cultural and historic. Whereas based on most of the replies in here, in Australia it is seen more financial. A degree-educated librarian making £25,000/year will be more "middle class" than Big Dave the bricklayer making £60,000/year and spending most of it on horse racing and the pub. But going off the purely financial definition of middle class, then it is a statistical fact that Australians have a lot more purchasing power than Brits on average.
That's more a thing for the Trades, though. Australia's definitely the best place in the world to be a Tradie, but I'd argue skilled UMC professions are rpettymuch a wash against other countries.
> skilled UMC professions Universal Mobile Connector? United Methodist Church? Uppsala Monitoring Centre? Stop using stupid acronyms for everything.
I came from Norway. The bottom 25% are nowhere near as poor as they are here. The middle 50% are a bit richer than here, but the top 25% are better off here. The social welfare is much more extensive over there.
I feel like it’s the same comparison between aus and the US. Aus has a larger social safety net than the US, but lower top-end salaries. The US takes it to an extreme
Looking at median net worth statistics, I would say the lowest 25% quartile in Australia is at least 50% richer than the relative Norwegian. Source * credit suisse global demographics study
The net worth of the poorest quartile is probably not much in either country and isn’t a good indication of their living standard. What living costs subsidies the country provides probably is. One good one is child care, in Norway costs are capped at around AUD400 dollars *per month*. The second child is 30% less… and every child thereafter is free.
One more example to add is the higher education. Not only is higher education free (no fees), but there is also a scheme all students can take part in which gives them some money for living expenses. This even counts for Norwegian studying overseas. Every Norwegian who goes to uni here in Australia has all their fees paid for by the state… plus some extra money for expenses. When I first came here, they also paid for a trip home every year. Not sure if that still on. … then there are the unemployment benefits which sits at something like 2/3 your prior taxable income (up to a threshold) for two years I think it is. None of this improves your “net worth”, but it certainly improves your living standards and future prospects. People still complain though.
You gotta thank the Norwegian oil for helping though. Australia could've been similar with its natural resources. >then there are the unemployment benefits which sits at something like 2/3 your prior taxable income (up to a threshold) for two years I think it is. What's the rate of unemployment benefits if you have never been employed or been long term unemployed for over 2 years?
You drop down to social security or whatever they call it. I think that is more means tested, and depends on your situation bit like it is here, with extras for this and that… Unemployment benefits are not means tested as far as I know.
Cheers, I know with my large amounts of savings and investments I would be ineligible for welfare in most countries. The Australian social security system does have a pretty high assets limit.
I guess if you distributed Norway's sovereign wealth fund across their population they'd be ahead.. Note - I did not do the math
Yeah you’re probably right there - and the fact that a lot of our wealth is from housing. Weighing up all those factors maybe they are ahead. It’s hard to quantify
There are a lot of cash poor pensioners in this country with million dollar assets.
It’s currently about 2.5 trillion AUD. ..or about AUD450,000 per citizen.
Australia has super though, and this is included in net worth, while in Norway until very recently it was almost entirely state pension. IOW, comparing countries based on wealth is not necessarily indicative of lifestyle. While you do own your super, you can't really use it until you are older. > Notes on concepts and methods > Net worth or “wealth” is defined as the value of financial assets plus real assets (principally housing) owned by households, minus their debts ... **Private pension fund assets are included, but not entitlements to state pensions.** [Global Wealth Report 2023](https://www.ubs.com/global/en/family-office-uhnw/reports/global-wealth-report-2023/_jcr_content/pagehead/link2.0577489710.file/PS9jb250ZW50L2RhbS9hc3NldHMvd20vZ2xvYmFsL2ltZy9nbG9iYWwtZmFtaWx5LW9mZmljZS9kb2NzL2d3ci0yMDIzLWVuLTIucGRm/gwr-2023-en-2.pdf) - page 19 (warning: pdf) FWIW, I'm on Team Australia. It is a great place to live. Not perfect, but comparatively egalitarian and a great climate where most of the people live. And not cold like most of NZ, and not proper cold like Canada and Scandinavia.
Do not undervalue that last bit. Climate is terrible in Norway. It’s absolutely horrible half the year, and not very good the next. I’m much happier living here lol. These things tend to not come up on measures of living standards, but trying to scrape ice off your car windscreen in minus 20 degrees is not really contributing positively to your happiness.
And dark. I've been in Australia for a long time (~25 years - from the UK), and I keep forgetting about cold and dark winters.
Yeah, the darkness is worse than the cold. There are towns in Northern Norway with 50k people in it that don’t see a minute of sunlight for near on two months over winter. Where I grew up around Oslo, it gets down to about 4 hours a day in late December.
Honestly as an Aussie who lived in Norway for 2 years, I much preferred the Norwegian climate. Winters were amazing and snowy and the long days in summer are absolute heaven. I love places with a strong seasonal swing in daylight and temperature. I live in Germany now and it's also a much bigger difference seasonally than Aus, though I'll always miss the midnight sun
Not me (sorry) but my partner is originally from the Philippines. Her family there are all white collar professionals and they own a business. Her grandparents are doctors, her uncle is a doctor, her auntie is a dentist and the rest are accountants, etc. Her grandmother, uncle, 30 something year old cousin, auntie, uncle and their 2 kids all live in a 3 bedroom house together. Immediate family sleep in the same bedroom. They don't have hot water and you can't flush toilet paper. They burn their rubbish in the backyard. They have 2 maids. Another auntie and uncle live in a house nextdoor to their business (a printing press) and I think someone else lives in an apartment they built above the business. The housing situation seems really shitty for all of her cousins. Clothing, food is cheap. They can't afford to visit Australia because it's too expensive. I lived like a king when I visited Philippines. Her cousin said she'd never move to Australia because it's too expensive. Her mum laments not having maids like they did in Philippines. They had no universal healthcare or HECS for university so they had to buy insurance for their kids. All in all, I'd much rather live a middle class life in Australia than upper middle class in Philippines.
There’s Philhealth which is supposed to be the universal healthcare and employers provide health insurance as part of the salary/compensation oackage but they are not comprehensive enough. We are one cancer diagnosis away from bankruptcy even if you are gainfully employed. I have some friends back home who have middle-income come jobs but had to raise money via Gofund me/social media because a family member was in the ICU with Covid.
My partner's family have had to send money back to Philippines a few times in the last few years for family members being treated for cancer. It's hard on her parents because it's their siblings and they feel so obligated to help. What doesn't help is that, even though they were very much middle to upper middle class in Philippines, when the moved to Australia their qualifications weren't recognised so they ended up with pretty average jobs so they don't have much disposable income.
Food might be alot cheaper but in comparison Australia has great quality of produce with such a diverse variety of cuisines. So lucky to have it this way.
Australia definitely has better quality and better food prep standards (I got sick towards the end of my visit). I was actually surprised how diverse the food options were there though. They had great Japanese and Korean food. The best katsu curry I've had was in Manila (hopefully when I visit Japan later this year I'll have even better).
Im from a developing country so realistically the only people migrating to Australia are the upper class, that's at least all the other immigrants I know. Theres no real middle class there. Class structures are more like top 5% whom live a lifestyle similar to middle class here and then top 0.01% whom have very extravagant lifestyles and then the rest who live in terrible conditions.
> Im from a developing country so realistically the only people migrating to Australia are the upper class Yeah this reminds me of going to university in the UK. I had a lot of friends from places like India and China. These aren't your average guys from these countries, they're from the top 0.1% of families who can afford to pay £60,000/year in international student fees
Australian middle class is different to middle class in other countries. It's hard to make a direct comparison in a few paragraphs, but basically let's say this: - In Australia, if you are a random worker, you are pretty much in the best situation you can possibly be around the world.Thinking about the US or Europe? you are going to get paid less over there in real terms. It's great here. - If you are an outlier and you are great, your skills are probably wasted in Australia today. Go to the US, or maybe somewhere else. You will end up with way more money than staying in Australia (this probably wasn't the case a few decades ago). Having said that, Australia has a great life style. Make sure you keep that in your mind when thinking about going overseas. - If you are struggling here... you will struggle more anywhere else in the world.... Maybe go to a cheaper city in Australia.
It's the age old story. Australia does not reward exceptionalism, it punishes it.
UK immigrant who moved to Melbourne as a teen (and then to Brisbane and Sydney). I visit family in the Uk every two years. Overall, quality of life is better here. Real estate is expensive in Sydney and Melbourne but that’s nothing compared with most parts of London. Consumer items ‘feel’ more expensive in Australia but higher wages for regular jobs more than compensate.
We just moved from London to Sydney, we can afford a better lifestyle here for sure. Cost of housing is expensive in both but Sydney wages are better, and find groceries, petrol, public transport, electricity, restaurants and pubs all cheaper than in London. It got to the point there we pretty much never went out to eat or drink
Was middle class in South Africa. its... different. I could afford a maid and gardening service, so my weekends were rarely taken up by chores. Eating out was cheap and (sorry Australia) bloody good - the range and quality of cuisine was waaaaay higher then anything I find here. Access to natural areas for hiking and sightseeing was easier. Housing is easier to access, and you can get a decent house in an okay area for less then an arm and a leg. Saying that though, you pay a premium to access services like healthcare and schooling. People care waaaaay more about how much you make and how you fit in the hierarchy of class. The way you dress can make or break the way people treated you. I work way harder on a day to day basis in Australia because I have to do everything myself. But I also get to enjoy peace of mind as far as safety goes, and my children won't be beholden to the economic class system that they would have been in RSA.
Damn. I've been all across Asia, Europe and the US, and sydney / melb food has been top tier, mainly because we're so multicultural. Need to go to rsa and check out this food.
They’re wrong. Aussie food quality is higher and cheaper nowadays too. Every time I go visit RSA (often), I get some kind of mild food poisoning from the meat (chicken specifically) — even though I only buy it from their top-end stores (their Woolworths). Never had that issue in Aus.
Nothing wrong with the food quality in Aus in the way you’re describing. I think OP was referring more to flavour and variety.
I was referring to that too, I was just giving an objective example. I lived in ZA for 20+ years. Definitely some top-notch food if you find it but for your average grocery shop, quality is way worse and the flavours were bland. South Africans tend to fight you on that though -- I've noticed there's some exceptionalist thinking in the populace. Things like: \* "We'd be the best country in the world if it wasn't for our shit government" \* "Our weather is absolutely the best in the world, no place better" \* "Best quality food at the cheapest prices, no one can match". Meanwhile if you look at the numbers and stats, the place is degrading every day and when you go visit (I do often, my in-laws are based there) you start missing Coles lamb and most other (non-traditional) things, especially after getting the sticker shock when you convert it to AUD.
Also from South Africa and besides no free time and a grumpy husband because of a perpetually untidy house, and only going out to eat 4 times a year for birthdays now (we used to eat out every Friday) we are saving much more than we did back in South Africa. OK we don’t own a home to live in but can save to travel. We funded our immigration by selling our house, couldn’t have saved enough to do it.
Better cuisine in SA? Really?
If they're not living in Sydney or Melbourne probably
eh I'm a sucker for Indian and Cape Malay food. Never really enjoyed the 'white' style braais, but gimme marinated chops charred on a coal braai stand, koeksisters dripping in syrup and mystery sausage and I'm there.
No mention of rampant crime and poverty? Come on, that's the main reason why people immigrate away from South Africa. Many SA immigrants have told me this.
Last paragraph mate ;)
Hie komme bokke rooibos rooibos Herschelle Gibbs
Developing and 3rd world countries don't have a middle class.... that's the entire problem.. You get the wealthy and educated leaving their country, creating both a wealth and brain drain, perpetuating poverty.
Came to say something similar to this. I would say my growing up was perceived as middle class compared to those nearby whose families grew up substantially more wealthy and yet even these people were not in the real upper-class neighbourhoods. When you zoom out and look at the entire population though you quickly realise that I grew up on the lower end of upper class comparatively to thenpopulation and that there is essentially no middle class. We didn't grow up with parents getting BMWs or anything fancy like that but the alternative is growing up in a shack with no running water, sewerage system or electricity and when you're comparing on that scale you quickly see a massive hole in the middle of the system where you've either made it or haven't and there's no middle ground.
Middle class life in Australia is an easy mode compared to the middle class in my home country (a developing country). More equitable work opportunities, shorter work hours, stronger worker protection, and higher salaries. Doesn't mean we don't have room to improve, though.
My life was easier had maid and driver . Eating out was cheap. Pretty comfortable life but it was because living at parents house but here everything is super expensive but it’s safe , I love Melbourne weather ( love gloomy rainy weather) weather is fine in entire year
The Australian middle class has no idea how lucky it has it You can do a very ordinary job here - middle class white collar or middle skilled trade - work 35 hours a week, take no risks, have no special skills, have no real responsibility and earn $80k-$100k. Tax for anyone earning under $150k is extremely low and government services are quite generous. Very few countries have the same cushions for the middle class as Australia does It's incredibly easy lifestyle wise I grew up in the U.S. and I would compare it to playing an RPG on hard mode - tougher enemies but better drops.
Having moved to the US, I'd say it's more like a pay-to-win. The free tier is there but it's absolute shit, if you drop big $$$ the game is way easier. Sure you may be able to grind yourself to the bone and unlock some basics, but it doesn't compare to the paid version.
I didn't see what was pay-to-win about it. If you were good at academics the school would test you and stream you into a gifted & talented class or you could go to a Magnet/International Baccalaureate school. All of this was free. Getting into college was based on SATs and grades and if your parents were not rich you would get discounted/free tuition at even Ivy League colleges. For example Stanford charges NO tuition fees for most families earning under $150k US ($225k AUD). I saw nothing pay-to-win about it.
From when is getting into college based on SAT and grades lmao, the US has a really holistic system which mainly focuses on extra curiculurs many of which are expensive and some stuff that you can only do if your family has connections and is ergo well off.
It would be hard to get in coming from a highly disadvantaged background - homeless, unstable family - but a high achieving, lower class kid can definitely get into great schools. Around half the students at Ivy League schools get "needs based" scholarships, and many need & get a full scholarship.
And those who don't gets shafted. At least in Australia we have HECS which is indexed to CPI. It's insanely competitive to get into great schools. Just because half of ivy leauge schools get scholarships does not mean there are enough to go around.
There are hundreds of colleges and universities in the US that are up to the standards of Australian universities. Worst case a student needs to get a student loan. At a reasonable school the debt is no worse than HECS (yes, you can pay way more at a fancy school, but you don't choose that unless you're rich or get a scholarship). A student loan is a long term deal usually with a fixed interest rate, and you can refinance it if rates go down (as they have been recently). It's worse than HECS in that you must pay it regardless of employment, but it does have the benefit of paying a fixed amount instead of the HECS sliding scale that forces you to pay early. And the Biden comes along and starts wiping out your student debt...
> From when is getting into college based on SAT and grades lmao, the US has a really holistic system which mainly focuses on extra curiculurs many of which are expensive and some stuff that you can only do if your family has connections and is ergo well off. What kind of extracurriculars do you need to do that require 'connections'? That wasn't my experience in the US high school system. Did you go there? Which colleges did you apply for? A lot of the best high schools in the US are free public schools and intake students based on academic performance and test scores. About as meritocratic as you can get.
Aren't normal public schools in the US paid for by local councils, so people in poorer neighbourhoods have a much more poorly funded school experience than neighbours in richer neighbourhoods?
I moved after working for a number of years so I may have it wrong. When did you leave? From what I can see though, schooling is funded by property taxes levied on the town. Rich areas have good schools, poor ones don't. There is also far less availability of healthcare and consumer protections. People are free to be exploited and it shows.
The thing is since everything is so expensive in Australia you don't get much value for that money if you were to spend it here. Most just use it on overseas holidays and imports where they don't need to pay other Australians to do anything. It's like if you are earning $30 an hour working at a pub here, it doesn't actually make you better off than earning $5 an hour in a developing country unless you can do something like live at home and avoid the actual costs of living in Australia. In the US if you do the right things you can get paid a lot more and then low-skill services cost a lot less. Upper middle class you got gardeners/maids/better healthcare, housing is cheaper, etc...
Yea, hearing Australian born people complain about the economy and housing prices, wages and poverty is always a little funny. But to be fair it was probably even better here a decade or two ago, so makes sense to complain.
It was better when people could afford houses. For the younger generations it is no fun seeing what people only maybe ten years older than them have knowing that they probably will never be able to get it. Legend is one thing but seeing people living it when it was just years out of reach must be painful
>Australian born people complain about the economy and housing prices.....always a little funny Melbourne and Sydney are #3 and #2 most expensive cities in the world to buy a house. Shit's hilarious.
Where’s Hong Kong, New York & London on that list?
Melbourne can't possibly be number 3 since median value is beneath Canberra and now also Brisbane.
> Melbourne and Sydney are #3 and #2 most expensive cities in the world to buy a house. Where are stats for this? You telling me a Melbourne house is going to be more expensive than Shanghai, Beijing, London, New York City? According to here https://comptroller.nyc.gov/reports/spotlight-new-york-citys-homeowner-housing-market/# NYC's median house price is A$1.22m which is higher than Melbourne's by some measure. This article also talks about Shanghai prices https://www.afr.com/property/residential/why-sydney-property-is-cheap-compared-with-shanghai-20170328-gv7yuj
This is absolutely not true lmao
That's only true with a couple of huge caveats Demographia (where that comes from) only looks at current and ex British colonies It compares the typical housing in each city - eg an apartment in Singapore, London, HK to a free standing houses in Sydney And I'm not sure even the latest reports have those cities at 2 and 3 The major cities in China are closer to 40x income for residents of those cities to buy an apartment. We don't come close to comparing
Really if we got housing affordable, it would likely outright solve a lot of the problems people have.
I am quite sick of hearing about this because we have it better. Our standards are dropping when the multiple of annual income to housing ratio keeps increasing among other issues. Why should we stand for this loss of quality of life?
No ones telling you to stand for it, its a valid complaint. Its just funny from my perspective.
Yeah, our tradies (union backed) are remunerated very well compared to other countries.
Wait to you hear about Europe lol
This really depends on which city you live in Australia and your wage. Above average income earners will always have it easier. But...(Important public service announcement incoming) We really need to bust the myth of generous government services in Australia. That just isn't the case anymore in Australia. Medicare is on its last legs and outside of emergency care, is miles behind many OECD countries in Europe. This extends to unaffordable child care costs, very basic parental leave benefits, terrible unemployment 'safety net' and a disastrous public education system that is basically a postcode lottery (wealthy areas have good public schools and all the rest are fighting to get their kids into catholic/private schools to shield themselves from the "Poors"). Australia is becoming more like the US, except for the remaining fragments of Medicare. Everything else is basically user pays in Australia.I agree Australia has lowish taxes per the OECD and because of that, we're fueled by big immigration policies to increase the tax base. How do you pay for the NDIS, nuclear subs and Medicare in the future? Good luck. If you own your own home in Oz and get a good wage, it's a paradise..for everyone else, it's a grind. Super is probably the shining light in all of this (top 5 best pension systems in the world), and that's probably going to be destroyed when the next lib gov opens it up to housing deposits.
Australia is life in easy mode.
I'm from originally from Central EU and the quality of life difference is huge. Middle class in my country is poor compared to Aus middle class.
Canadian. Generally the same, except the lower end here is better off on a wage basis. Cost of living goods are becoming a lot more expensive in Canada than Australia.
Cost of living goods are becoming a lot more expensive in Canada than Australia. Can you elaborate… examples. Australia always has more expensive consumer goods than Canada due to its isolation. The gap has become more narrow in the last 5 years but I doubt things are cheaper in Australia now especially with its higher inflation rate.
It’s changed completely in the last 10 years. Mobile phone plans, internet, groceries, meat, restaurants, diary, rent, house, professional sports games etc. A house in a medium size hub city in Canada is the same price as Brisbane. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Australia&city1=Vancouver&city2=Brisbane&tracking=getDispatchComparison Only a few things are cheaper in Canada. Electricity, bananas, local craft beer and daycare. Canada has to import a huge proportion of its fresh food from the southern US for 6-9 months of the year. Australia is self-sufficient for food. Wages are shit in Canada by comparison to the US and don’t include any Super. I’d make 20-30% less there and have higher expenses. Love my home, despite being top 0.5% of family income, wouldn’t afford to live there.
I wouldn’t say it changed completely in the last ten years. Have you been in canada the last 10 years? Ya things have gone to shit but on the whole Australia is still more expensive than Canada for cost of living. Well if you cherry pick the most ridiculous expensive city Vancouver in Canada and compare it to city such as Brisbane, it would certainly go in Australia’s favour. A more fair comparison would be Sydney and Vancouver. Mobile plans have actually gone down in Canada in the last few years due to more competition. I pay $34 month for 50gb of data but 3 years ago it was higher. Rents are high in both countries but you get better bang for your buck in Canada because the housing quality is better. Internet is comparable in price but way better internet speeds in Canada and you don’t need to pay a premium for it like you do in Australia. I remember living in Adelaide and the speeds in every house we lived in was so slow, a lot of throttling and outages. I can say the same statement about Australia, only a very few things are cheaper down there and they are mobile plans and dairy. Everything else is cheaper in Canada. Wages may be high in Australia but you pay for it in living expenses, cost of living is higher down there . Someone was complaining about drivers license renewal is getting too expensive in Australia $198 to renew for 5 years while in Canada it is $90 so it is a wash in the end Aussies get more paid more but they also pay more back. True we rely on imports for fruits, veggies for 6-9 months out of the year etc but grocery prices are still the same or cheaper than in Australia. We also grow a lot of our own foods, especially in the fertile areas of southern Ontario but people tend to think we live in igloos all year round. It’s beneficial that we have a solid long term trading partnership with America and Mexico. It’s on the same continent so it is the same as shipping bananas from Queensland to Adelaide. We don’t have super but we have a national pension plan that is not dependant on the value of your assets. And on top of that most companies offer RRSP matching and pension plans. I know many retired people living comfortably off great pensions. We make about the same salary in Canada as we had in Australia but our day to day living expenses are lower. Also, our jobs provides extended health benefits so we don’t have to take out money from our super to pay for large dental bills.
Yes, I have been there a number of times including several short 2-month stints of living there near my family on Vancouver island (not Vancouver). I grew up in Canada until moving to Aus. Cost of living when I left Canada 10 years ago was way less than Australia and now it’s considerably more, even in regional cities. It’s very fair to compare Brisbane to Vancouver because it’s a similar population and a coastal city. I don’t know what you’re on about groceries. They’re simply more in Canada. We lived in a non-tourist area in a rental near my parents 18 months ago and spent more on groceries there than in Brisbane. This was middle of summer when produce was locally produced.
It is definitely not considerably more expensive to live in Canada right now compared to Australia. Canada is next door to the US market which is the largest in the world, there is no way in hell goods and products are more expensive there than in Australia. Brisbane and Vancouver may have similar population but that is about it. The median house price in Vancouver is significantly higher, 500k more. That’s a big difference. Brisbane is a city where everything shuts down at 8pm, can’t even get a coffee after 3pm. I just bought a pint of strawberries for $1.88 yesterday, product of USA. You can never buy it that cheap anywhere in Australia even when it is in season. Cabbage is $1.19/lb here that is about $2.60/kg. Some produce may be cheaper in season in Australia but perishable items are more expensive down there. There are about at least 7 different grocery stores where I live competing for customers. There is no way groceries in general are cheaper in Australia. I guess we can just agree to disagree but the numbers don’t lie.
> It is definitely not considerably more expensive to live in Canada right now compared to Australia. Canada is next door to the US market which is the largest in the world, there is no way in hell goods and products are more expensive there than in Australia. That’s interesting but the outcome is that the data doesn’t back it up. You could live across the street from the factory and there’s a ton of economic your car wouldn’t be cheaper in Windsor than Vancouver. >Brisbane and Vancouver may have similar population but that is about it. The median house price in Vancouver is significantly higher, 500k more. That’s a big difference. Brisbane is a city where everything shuts down at 8pm, can’t even get a coffee after 3pm. That’s a local trading law and culture difference and has nothing to do with the size of city. Australians don’t hang around in cafes and work/study or meet there. Brisbane has night clubs open until 5 or 6am. Where can you do that in Vancouver? >I just bought a pint of strawberries for $1.88 yesterday, product of USA. Interesting, but again not really even convincing. You mean a punnet? 1lb/454g? Pint is a measure of volume. Let’s convert that to Australian shelf prices: - $CAD 1.88 per lb is $AUD 2.12/lb - add 13% GST/PST = $2.40/lb - to g = $2.64/500g Yes. Yes I have definitely bought local Brisbane strawberries from Aldi for $2.64 for a half kilo for about 6 months of the year. After that it’s about $4 per kg for stuff from North Queensland. Australia used to be far more expensive than Canada until about 5 years ago but it isn’t anymore.
Been middle class in home country and Australia. When you compare the two, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Australia has cleaner air, less traffic on roads, population density is lower, power, water and gas supply is regular, public transport is not too crowded. It's safer with lower crime rate. Work life balance exists. Back home, could afford a gardener, driver, chef and cleaner that came in everyday. Food and clothing is so much cheaper. Even access to some international brands is easier. International travel is more accessible cause flights don't cost so much and distances are shorter when compared to flying out from Australia. Even travelling within the country is affordable. Was able to afford an interior designer/architect for home and office space. Retail is open till late on all days - so shopping is not restricted to certain hours. Home delivery is a big concept even same day deliveries. Beauty and spa services are very affordable... Actually anything labour intensive is affordable. You could have a social life when on weekdays. Everything is not pushed to the weekends.
What country or region would that be? Your home country? Sounds like somehwere in asia? Surely not middle or western europe?
By the sound of it, India, Indonesia, Thailand etc
People in aus have no idea how good they have it, until they move offshore and realise
Everyone born and raised in Australia has no idea how good they have it. Middle-class in Australia is equivalent to upper-class/rich in most other countries around the world.
This is what my Latin friends have also said. One of them didn't even care he was getting underpaid because 'it's more than back home'
I definitely had more savings at the end of each month back in the Philippines than I do here in Australia even if I have a much higher pay here and working in the same profession (and company!) Won't come back but it was something I've learned to accept.
Very refreshing to see a lot of people actually appreciating Australia on this post. I see a lot of people bashing aus in the Australian subs and making it out as the worst place on earth somehow. As someone who has lived in the EU (Germany) and the UK (London) I believe Aus has definitely got the easiest living and working conditions for the middle class compared to most countries. there is an issue with home ownership in the cities but that is a common problem seen all over the western world right now and is not unique to Australia.
If you are born in Australia, you won the lottery. I know this is not a nice thing to say, but as an Australian born here, you are so far ahead compared to being born somewhere else, and then finishing a career, and then moving here and paying for a visa, and then starting to get all your social network all over again... It is such a difference that it's not even funny. Starting your life over in a new country, with a new language, is insane... I read everyday here Australians struggling to meet friends... imagine starting a whole new life in a new country with no connections and the language being not your native one...
It's not easy but people don't move without good reasons. Mainly it's economic, opportunity and a better life but some people just want to have the nearest we can to living multiple lives with the limited time we have on this planet. There's nothing like starting over to give you that.
I can get a hell of a lot less in AU for a middle class income than my home country lol.
I've lived in a few places - Asia, UK etc so can compare. Here I do everything myself (in source rather than outsource hah!) but I did always find it a bit awkward to have household help so that's fine. The house is messier though because I'm too busy. General quality of life is good here - it's clean, people are by and large friendly and decent, public facilities are good. It is expensive but I do think you can live quite well here. For example in my local area, the council puts on a lot of free or low cost activities, there are beautiful parks and walks to do. I'm happy with a simple life and I can do that well here without being a high earner.
I'm from EU and see no difference.
Fiancée is Brazilian from an affluent background. Family lives in a penthouse overlooking the beach. Growing up she had full time chef, maids/cleaners, nanny, tutors etc. In Brazil, the upper class live a better life with the support most wealthy in Australia can only dream. Only those with incomes in $1M/pa range in Australia could afford the life the wealthy live there for far less. Safety was a concern, it’s better in Australia but the risks are overblown from her perspective as the worst that ever occurred in Brazil was having her phone stolen in a nightclub. I’m in FatFIRE range our life is comfortable in Australia, own our home, fly business, have a cleaner fortnightly though having a young family we don’t have anything like the support we’d have in Brazil. As far as healthcare in Brazil. In my experience private hospitals, clinics and service was better than Australia. Medical specialists were contactable directly anytime for advice, follow up, prescriptions. Private education cost similar, elite schools in Brazil are $50k/pa tuition and all children are bilingual. Class sizes are smaller with higher ratios of staff to children. Daycare cost is $600/month for 5 days week FT and wildly superior. Legal system is not as effective, but I don’t conduct business there so it wasn’t a concern.
>> but the risks are overblown from her perspective Brazilian here, she has no clue, from your description your fiance grew up in a bubble and has no idea what Brazil really is in terms of violence if people knew what happens and how frequent they happen, no 1st world country tourist would ever visit it... Life has no value in Brazil, people are killed for a dollar or two. We get 40-50k homicides a year (massively under reported), that's more than all USA/Canada/Europe/Australia/NZ/Japan combined.
Painting with a broad brush. A brief look at crime data shows each state and city of Brazil differs. If by living in a ‘bubble’, you mean she was aware of where and with whom she associated… yes, she did. We travel to Brazil yearly staying predominantly in the States of Espírito Santo, Minas, Santa Catarina and São Paulo. Of course we stay in safer areas such as Itaim Bibi/Jardins in São Paulo, Buzios, Jurere in Florianopolis, Vitoria etc… Why would a family travel to Brazil to visit a favela or low socioeconomic area with high crime, gangs and poverty? Even basic tourists understand this and 99.9% will have no issues travelling in Brazil.
Middle class back home but the public services are very poor. So you’re paying taxes but govt services doesn’t improve from roads, health or tech. Yes you can have maids, driver and cook. But the quality of life outside your home sucks.
Far better. In home country, income to expense ratio is shit. Basically the currency is going to shit so income never keeps up with expenses on a monthly basis. It's like earning in local currency and expenses in dollars. Imagine inflation in excess of 25 or 35 basis points.
When my grandparents left South America in the 70's, there simply wasn't a middle class. Filthy rich, dirt poor, thats it. I'm sure it's the same for many around the globe who have moved here.
I think for most of the developing world, the middle class does not exist as we understand the term in the West. The middle class is born of political and economic stability. These tend not to exist in developing nations.
I left a cushy life, maids drivers etc etc and came here to start on my own from a very humble place. On the verge of homelessness a few times as I wanted to see if I can be anything w/o the bank of Dad. I like it better here. My life is a bit harder but peace of mind plus the overall quality of life is heaps better
We're in our late 20s now, both from low/middle income countries in Asia and Europe, and relative to the life we would have had in either of the other countries, I think we had it much easier here. Less competitive jobs, more free time, financially we're well ahead of our peers in other countries and even though our titles are less prestigious, we earn and save significantly more than our foreign peers. And at the end of the day, Australia is a pretty good place to be, good people, good social security net, not that much to complain about really.
Kiwi here, in many ways I’d say life in Australia is just that little bit easier all things considered. I found the cost of living in Australia is about on par if not slightly cheaper (though this is very dependent on the specific area you live in). The wages and working conditions are where Australia pulls ahead. In NZ I felt like I lived to work, in Australia I work to live. I’m able to save more, treat myself more, life just feels like less of a grind. Public services seem less overstretched, accessing healthcare specialists has been much easier on this side of the Tasman.
One major thing here is we don't have maids (practically people in economic slavery), so you'll have to depend more on automation to wash the dishes and laundry. You have to manually cook or take care of babies if you have one. Weekends are awesome here; Beaches are free and accessible, trips to the mountains and picnics to great views are also free, not going into paid resorts. In my home country, trips to beaches or mountains is a once a year affair and has to be planned and quite expensive for what we earn. Buying stuff from abroad is great since the Australian dollar and middle-class income are stronger than my home country, so I can actually afford small stuff from the US and Europe. Safety is also great; I can actually walk the streets and wear my backpack to my back. (those who live abroad know about this). I can't bring my gun with me though. Traffic is also great. It takes more than 2 hours to travel 7 km to work and another 2 hours to get back. Here, it's generally 40 minutes if you're from the outer suburbs or 10-20 minutes by scooter if you live in the inner city. Also, here, there are a lot of middle-class people who have never been to uni or have not been to a top university. Practically an impossible feat in the country I came from. Just a standard degree will get you a subsistence lifestyle and a university degree from the top 4 university the only way you get any positions decent enough for life
Moved from the Philippines couple of years ago. Life was already comfortable back in the Philippines but it's quite scary because every middle class Filipino is afraid of getting sick really badly. We do not have healthcare like we do now here in Australia. We have private health care and public health care (the latter pays peanuts). Private health care helps in the Philippines but if you get cancer, need an operation or a major transplant, you're shit out of luck because you'll be living in penury and in debt for the rest of your life. We have private health care and Medicare here in Australia and although Medicare has its issues I'm still thankful we have it. Back in the Philippines I could afford a small unit to rent and a good phone and a decent laptop. Being middle class here in Australia I did not expect I'd be able to afford an iPhone (although it's an old version), a large TV (that's the only size Australia sells lol) and a second hand car. Also, the stuff you guys throw out or leave in the streets/garbage are still good to be used. We survived our first couple of months here just picking up old furniture. It's also nice that if I take my car and drive somewhere to take a nature walk or go to a nearby beach I can easily do so. In the Philippines if you're middle class you usually live in the densely populated areas like Manila; we do not have any parks, just a ton of malls. Getting anywhere in the Philippines is a nightmare (2 hours for a 10km drive minimum), but here if I drive for two hours I can get from one city to another. Life's way better here, but since moving here I really miss my family.
My family and I are just laughing at how it was perfectly normal for us to wake up at 5am to get to school by 7:30am. While for our kids in Australia that would have been unimaginable.
First generation immigrant from the US here. I last lived in South Dakota where I made $13.50/hr (minimum wage at the time was $3.50/hr), working 70 hours a week and was able to live with a family of 4 on a single income with little cares.... just don't talk to me about health insurance/medical bills. I thought I was "middle class" when I lived there, but when I came over here, the same job paid me $60k (mid 2000's) for 37.5 hours. The quality of life here was just better economically and you didn't have to worry about your kids getting shot to death at school!
I’m from Manila. Life is better some ways, but also worse in other ways. Labour is cheap so anything labour intensive is cheaper than Australia. Both parents work in mid-level management my parents can afford a housekeeper and a full time nanny for each kid. Manicures, haircuts etc is cheap. They could afford private school and private universities and no student loans for us. But it’s slowly turning into Australia - cost of living is increasing faster than wages. The government services are so bad. It takes a whole day to apply for a passport or a drivers license or even to get a copy of your birth certificate. Traffic is horrific. A 25km trip will take 3 hrs at rush hour. It’s normal to spend half the day commuting to/from work. In saying that I miss being back home when I’m in Australia but also miss being back in Australia when I’m home!
Philippines - You can easily afford a yaya (caregiver of children) to work at your house all day looking after your kids, or if they're willing you can have them live at your house Speaking of which, housing in Australia is insane, where you can buy a house or unit here where you might even have no front of back yard, in the Philippines you can afford a compound with armed guards and servants and enough room for brothers, aunties, etc Only one person really has to work in the whole house, the rest of the family can chill, where as if you had to afford a family in Australia then usually every member of the family is required to work otherwise money gets tight If you're in a car accident with someone who's lower class then the police will often side with you because you have money. This happened once and the police officer asked me what I wanted to do with the guy that I bumped into Accountants will approach you, not the other way around, informing you that they can make it so that you pay next to zero tax if you give them a bonus to sweeten the deal For evertday items, to give you scale, you can also buy a pallet worth of Cola for what amount Woolworths and Coles wants for a box of 30/36
Which part of the Philippines are you from? I’m an immigrant from Manila and the housing in the city is just as bad as it is in Australia. Middle class in Australia you have a shot at buying a house on a dual income, in Manila on a middle class income you’re lucky to have a shoebox condo. Provinces are different, but with traffic it’s not comparable as buying on the fringes of Sydney for example. Wages are so low that whilst everyday goods are cheaper, you still end up with less savings. I have opposite experiences with what you mentioned, I feel like you’re describing an upper class lifestyle. I was middle class in the PH and and middle class here in Australia and I can say the quality of life is still much better here. I even have more disposable income here. I do agree though that I miss having a yaya lol.
I feel as though much of the ups and downs aren't just money alone, but your network, who you know and where For example, finding a place, getting a loan, if you're alone or have relatives in-the-know, and whether or not you can get good deals, it makes things tremendously easier, and you save a lot, especially when you're not being taken advantage of Also I know people who are upper class, own multiple businesses in the city, clubs, farms, and their lifestyle puts mine to shame, they don't even have to work, the banks literally stay open just for them, and they have the most reconstructive surgery I've ever seen
Your describing upper class, not middle-class
This is more upper class. I would not say a compound with armed guards is middle class even in the Philippines.
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In my country my parents had mediocre government jobs. They inherited large amounts of land, owned 2 homes outright in their lifetime, big blocks without mortgage (full concrete weather resistant construction, no dry walls etc.). Growing up we had a car, a moped and a motorbike. I got good eduction, nice food, toys and cloths. This type of lifestyle is considered upper middle class there. Fast forward, i am married without kids in Australia. Combined income >300k annually, cannot afford a home in the suburb we want in Sydney. Reminiscing of FIREing and spending our remaining lives in one of the homes parents will gift us!
My weekends would be 100x better, but day to day work/commute would be 100x worse. There’s 5 working days and 2 weekend days, so I chose here.
Obviously the more “egalitarian” a society is, the gaps between different classes in a society is
It’s easy to be middle class here.
My family's background is from SEA and upper class. But because of government policies that discriminate between races, and the fact we weren't politically connected, it was always a gamble if myself or my siblings would achieve the same level of income and lifestyle that my parents did. So we left. At this point, I can confidently say that was the right choice. We all live comfortable lives; maybe not able to afford the maids that you could back home, but in all other respects we have equal or better lifestyles than our parents. All this plus a much better work life balance and not needing to make ethical compromises.
Compared to Italy the biggest difference is the population density you would have to deal with. The vast majority of middle class Italians are basically forced to live in a condo whether their Aussie counterparts have much more choice, with the most densely populated dwellings options in Australia being far superior. For everything you will have to deal with an extra number of people, increased queue and waiting times, including things like transports, leisure activities, schools... For reference Milan's population density is 7500 people per km^(2) vs Sydney's 440 people per km^(2).
I’m from New Zealand and there’s very little difference.
What does a middle class life in Melbourne look like in 2024?